Selected quad for the lemma: christian_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
christian_n	church_n	communicate_v	communion_n	2,762	5	9.2903	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A01099	A shield of defence against the arrovves of schisme shot abroad by Iean de L'escluse in his advertisment against Mr. Brightman Here vnto is prefixed a declaration touching a booke intituled, The profane schisme of the Brovvnists. By Iohn Fovvler. Clement Saunders. Robert Bulvvarde.	Fowler, John, Brownist.; Saunders, Clement. aut; Bulwarde, Robert. aut	1612 (1612)	STC 11212; ESTC S102487	39,669	46

sin is in it self veniall al sinnes with out f●●th in him do bring eternall wrath as well one as an other And in like maner Mr. Iohnson holding the same corruptions in the reformed dutch french churches might in this respect say of thē all as he * sayth of England that they stand all subiect to wrath God imputing this their sinne vnto them For any one of the least sinnes do make men subiect to wrath God imputing the same vnto them Lastly Mr. Iohnson as he telleth vs himself whensoever he vttred his hard sentence against the church of England did alwayes speak with caution and added some of these clauses being so considred in that estate in that 〈◊〉 But here Delescluse without any caution or clause of consideration shuts them vp all vnder eternall wrath makes his arrowes drun●ken with the blood of soules will needes have them all to drinck the cup of indignation from his hand with no lesse sin drunkennes of errour then when he had drunken that cup of magis whereof Iacob Iohnson is sayd to have admonished him he doth in this place as vainely condemne the faithfull for no sheepe of Christe as he did then commend the same Iacob Iohnson to be a fit pastour for his sheepe 20. THe second speech of Mr. Brightman alledged to shew that he doth corruptly teach against the separation is this viz. that the most mighty king Henry had expelled the pope but reteyned the popish superstition Note here the folly of Delescluse that would prove a separation in one time by the corruptions superstitions of an other time as though he should say In king Henries time there were many superstitions therfore in Queene Elizabeths time there ought to be a separation notwithstanding all the reformation that was procured by her meanes what sober man would so argue 21. FVrther whereas Delescluse sayth that the pope cannot properly be sayd to be expelled when his doctrine and superstition is retepned it is a vayne Cavill for first if he stand so precisely vpon propriety of speech the pope can not properly be sayd to be expelled no not then where his doctrine and superstition is expelled It is a figurative speech to note the popish doctrine and superstition vnder the name of the pope himself 2ly it is yet a true and a fit speech in Mr. Brightman to say that the pope was expelled when the iurisdiction of the pope and the supremacy formerly annexed vnto his person was denyed and reiected when he was no longer acknowledged to be the head of that church when that which was vniustly arrogated vnto the person of the pope was translated vnto the person of the king as it was in King Henries dayes even as the venetians at this day might very fitly be sayd to expell the pope if they would vtterly deny his supremacy both in civill and Ecclesiastcall causes howsoever they might reteyne many popish superstitions 2. THe third speech of Mr. Bright man which he bringes against him to prove a separation from the church of England is this that there is such a forme of church established as is neither cold nor hote but set in the middes and made of both etc. These wordes Mr. B. vttred in comparing the church of Laodicea England togather as the type and antitype vnto one an other That which he sayth of England he takes frō Laodicea which is also declared to be neither hote nor cold Rev. 3. 15. 16. so that by this manner of arguing he might as well prove a separation from the church of Laodicea in respect of the lukewarmnes which the holy ghost shewes to have bene found therein But that it is most erroneous so to reason Christe plainely teacheth vs while he telles vs that this church was still a golden candlestick that the angell thereof was a starre in his right hand that he himself would still sup communicate with that church And therfore so also may the church of England be reputed not with standing the same or the like luke warmnes 23. VVIth this third speech he desires that this which he hath set downe for the fift charge may be ioyned where Mr. B. sayth that no other cause can be brought of their lukewarmnes the popish governement mingled with the pure doctrine then the love of riches and honours And what can he conclude hence VVhat though they were covetous ambitious given to the love of riches honors so became lukewarme shall this be a iust cause of separation from the church No for the scribes Pharisees were also covetous ambitious Mat. 23. 5. etc. Luk. 16. 14. yet cōmunion with them was lawfull 24. HE desires further that this complaint of lukewarmnes may be compared with that prayse of reformation which Mr. Br. gives vnto the church of England in the title of his epistle dedicatory VVel being compared with the same it may well stand togather with it for reformed churches may yet have lukewarme ministers many other greevous corruptions to be complayned of yea doth not Delescluse condemne himself in this matter for doth not he also in the title of his booke in his epistle written to the English readers entitle thē with the name of godly reader and Christian reader And is there any god ●ine● without reformation Is there any Christian that is not reformed VVhy then may not Mr. B. call those holy reformed whom Delescluse doth call godly and Christian 25. HE demandes still in the same place sayth Is it possible that holynes and vnholynes can raigne togather VVe answer Yea in one the same church in the divers members thereof as in the church of the iewes holynes raygned in Christe his disciples vnholynes raigned in the scribes and Pharisees c. 26. HE yet demandes againe saith Is there any communion betweene Christe and Anti-christe betweene light and darknes betweene Idolles and the true God Can any kingdome any church any family any man submit vnto the governement of Anti-christe and not be defiled VVe answer though Christe Anti-christe be enimies yet the servants of Christe may lawfully communicate in that church where many abhominations of Anti-christe are to be seene sor as francis wingrave a Brownist doth truely acknowledge Every abhomination of Anti-thriste doth not make a church to become anti-Anti-christian for the best churches are subiect to errour and some abhominations of Anti-christe were crept into Christian churches whiles the Apostles lived And yet communion was lawfull therein Even so the children of light the children of darknes did communicate togather in Christes time As for Idolles if they be no other then set formes of read prayer and such like which the Brownistes call idolles communion with them is lawfull enough And for governement though Caiaphas was an Anti-christian vsurper yet did many persons lawfully submit vnto his power Thus hath God himself and his Prophets Christ

insult there vpon though vve be vvronged yet are not they cleared from the matters there noted vvhich are still in force against them Our desire our purpose is hereafter as occasion opportuinty meanes shal be offred more fully to manifest their Profane schisme by the publishing of those thinges vvhich formerly have bene omitted in the meane time vve do here present vnto the reader a fevv observations vpon the advertisement of Iean Delescluse vvhich he hath vvritten against Mr. Brightman against the communion of saintes His perverse collections for separation dravvne from Mr. Brightman his Testimony vve have here shevved to be vaine vvicked The principles of Brovvnisme vvhich he hath briefely alledged are here breefely ansvverd yet so as that the vanity errour of their separation may be easily discerned hereby This labour vve have vndertaken cheefely for the comfort helpe of those vveake brethren vvho either do not sufficiently vnderstād the iniquity of this errour of the Brounistes or els do not duely consider the danger of this schisme vvhich as it dayly breakes it self in pieces so vvould it also break ruinate overthrovv all the churches that should admit receyve the same vvhen corruptions do encrease are maynteyned let the godly vvitnesse against the same but let them not fret vnto separation so shall they vvalke vvith Christe in vvhite Reu. 3. 4. An ansvver vnto the advertisement of Iean Delescluse concerning Mr. Brightman vpon the Apocalyps 1. WHereas in his title he pretendes to advertise the godly reader whom afterward in his Epistle he calles Gentle reader and Christian reader marke how this man doth mocke his reader for by his profession of Brownisme he holdes all the membres of the church of England to be no visible Christians to be without true faith without godlines even eve-ry one as they are publique professours of the gospel in that church yet here in this flattering title of his English booke he dissembles notably as though he would honour record their godlines And thus in the very forehead of his booke his hypocrisy beginnes to shew it self 2. VVHereas in his title he takes on him to advertise every godly reader of Mr. Tho. Brightmā his booke how absurd senselesse is it There be many godly readers of Mr. Brightmās booke which vnderstād no English at al seing it is extant in Latine yet he writes in English to advertise every one of them 3. IN the same place he alledgeth against the church of England that saying of the Prophet 1. Kim 18. 21. How long halt ye betweene two opinions If the lord be God follow him but if Baal be he then go after him This is vniustly applied against them who are assured of their lawfull communion with that church but this sentence or the like may much more fitly be alledged against the divided distracted Brownistes who halt betweene two opinions betweene two communions some halting after the Franciscane order sone limping after the Ainsworthian popular order some hanging in doubt betwixt both opinions so that they dare not ioyne to either of them but walk alone 4. THe first cause which mooved him to put forth this writing in defence of the separatiō he sets downe in these wordes First the glory of my God etc. what meanes he by this speech of his God in saying the glory of my God Hath he and his flock a speciall God of his owne more then other churches of Christe It is true indeed that David other faithful servants of God do often with the voyce of faith vse to speak of God in this manner my king and my God as Ps 84. 3. but yet if we looke a litle further into the profession of the Brownistes we may easily imagine some other cause of their speaking on this manner for whereas R. R. in his prophecying among the prophets of Mr. Anisworthes company testifyed against their separation iustifyed the church of England to be a true church being for this vniustly excommunicate of that company it was as vniustly defended by Mr. Ainsworth who layd this groud of his excommunicatiō frō Deu. 13. 1. 2. c. that he had sought to turne thē away frō the Lord their God had perswaded them to go after other Gods and to serve thē all this onely for perswading that it was lawfull to heare a sermō in the church of Engl. to pray with thē c In this proceeding they declare that they hold the church of Engl. to be withovt the true God in that they cōdemne those that ioyne with the same to turne away frō the Lord their God to go after other God● and therfore no marvel if according to this opinion they speak of their special God intending an other God whom we know not This may yet further appeare in the speech of Delecluse who being blamed for his schisme from the french church hath here vpon cōdemned that reformed church as having Christe to be neither their King priest nor Prophet And if they be without Christe then are they without true God Ioh. 2. Epist vers 9. and Ioh. 17. 3. According to these speeches it is not strange nor inconsequent that he should meane his speciall God in the forenamed phrase Iemar the monstro●s Arrian pretending that we erre about the nature of Christe doth blasphemously affirme that our God is no better then the planke vnder his foote Delescluse the inordinate Brownist pretending that Christe is not our king doth hereby sacrilegiously both deprive Christe of his people his people of their God their saviour their mediatour And thus while he pretendes the glory of his God he treades vnder his feete the glory of that everlasting God who is the God king of all the reformed churches round about 5. AGaine in his declaratiō of this first moving cause that made him to publish this treati●e in defence of Brownisme he alledgeth divers scriptures which teach that the people of God ought to be holy as the Lord is holy as namely Levit. 19. 2. 1. Pet. 1. 5. 16. But what meanes he by this Can not the people of God be holy sanctifyed vnlesse they separate from the churches as the Brownistes doe or can they not give glory vnto God without their separation we see the contrary throughout the scriptures the holy Prophets the holy Apostles and Iesus Christe that holy one of God did keepe a holy communion among open obstinate sinners and glorified God thereby and this also in a church that was far more corrupt than that reformed church from which this Delescluse hath schismed and runne away 6. VNto his other allegation that all those that call vpon the name of Christe should depart from iniquitye 2. Tim. 2. 19. It may also be answered as the former that the most holy servants of God most zealous of his glory have kept communion which open sinners as offensiue as 〈…〉 the church

which all that professe the name of Christe might well be ashamed we have seene their contentions disorders conf●sions so great that even the jewes the professed enimies of Christe being neighbours vnto the Brownistes and dwelling hard by them perceyving their bitter dissensions divisions have laughed them to scorne poynted at them with the finger Thus have they bene a scandall and an offence both to th●se with in without the church And now therfore according to the reasoning of Delesclnse they are for this to be reiected separated from 34. DElescluse in his amplification of this fore sayd speech makes a large complaint against the reformed churches shewing that they may be ashamed because they have not dealt so sincerely and plainely with the church of England for reproofe of corruptions in the same c In this complaint observe first how absurdly Delescluse dealeth that being to reprove the dutch french churches writes against them in English which they can not vnderstand why did he not also write against the church of England in french or dutch Secondly note here how he breakes his promise he promised immediately before to be breefe to bring that which remayned into a short summe yet he is now more large and ample in laying out this testimony of Mr. B. then in any of the former In this dealing it seemes he scarse knew or cared what he sayd or did Thirdly let the reader know that the reformed churches have plenteonsly testifyed against the corruptions of the church of England contrary to that which Delescluse doth here pretend for a tast hereof to omit other thinges we desire the reader but to looke vpon these three bookes viz. Abridgement of the booke delivered to his maiesty by ministers of lincol etc. The answer to D. Downehams sermon the scholasticall discourse against the signe of the crosse wherein may be seene the pregnant and abundant testimonies of learned men in the reformed churches both against the hierarchy or prelacy and also against the superstitious ceremonies remayning in the church of England as namely Calvine Beza Musculus Bucer Martyr Bullinger Aretius Zanchius Mornaeus Iunius Sadeel Piscator Polanus Vrsinus Virel Viret Grinaeus Bucanus Goulartius Danaeus Olevian Zepperus Lubbertus Bastingius Snecanus Keckerman with a number more who as they have testifyed against the corruptions maynteyned by the prelates on the one side so have they testifyed against the separation schisme maynteyned by the Brownistes and Anabaptistes on th' other side In so much that both they which plead for the prelacy and they which plead for separation do in like manner esteeme and hold the ministers of the reformed churches as their partyes and adversaries see D. Down hams defence lib. 1. pag. 197. and H. Ainsw counterpoy pag. 15. 35. A Ninth speech of Mr. Brightman alledged by Delescluse is touching the names of the officers of that church that they were vnknowne vnto the church of Christe except the bishops etc. where vpon Delescluse infereth in these wordes And what is this shall then any soule in whom there is but a very small sparkle of the feare of God be so bold as to dare submit vnder the government and guidance of such vnlawfull ministers and ministery Yea verily we see those soules that had very many and great sparkles of the feare of God have submitted themselves vnder the government and guidance of vnlawfull ministers neither hath Delescluse here brought any sound reason to shew the contrary VVe see that in Christes time there were divers officers whose names had not bene heard of in the primitive church of the ●ewes no● ever were instituted by any example of former times in that church as namely the names of of lawyers scribes of the people and according to the writing of of the Brownistes the names of Archisynagogues or rulers of the Synagogues Secondly it is evident the godly may lawfully submit themselves vnto the government guidance of such private brethren who in respect of their sects factions superstitious observations have had ●uch names as were formerly vnknowne vnto the church of God who also in respect of their wickedn●s deserved to have their names ●lotted o●t of the register of the saintes This we see in the communion of the godly with the scribes Pharisees And therfore if it be lawful for Christians to submit themselves vnto the counsayles admonitions rebukes of those which for their sin ought to be cast out of the church of God yet are vniustly reteyned If a man may stand vnder the guidance and authority of such admonishers so long as he testifies against their sinnes then may he also stand vnder the government guidance of vnlawfull officers If a man may submit himself vnto one who is vnlawfully a member of the church why not also vnto him who is vnlawfully a minister of the church If a man may submit himself in private vnto the guidance of an vnlawfull brother then why not also vnto the publique guidance of an vnlawfull officer There is more proportion betwixt a member a minister then betwixt a member an excommunicate or an heathen or one that ought to be excommunicate For example Daniel studly Iean Delesculse being both of them deposed from their offices for sin imputed vnto them by the Franciscane Brownistes suppose they were still obstinate in the sinnes imputed vnto them deserving excommunication yet tolerated vnlawfully in this estate being not iudged nor cast out by their church their admonitions for sin either in the first or second place were not to be reiected And if their private admonition might be submitted vnto why not their publique also if they had not bene deposed If in the want of due excommunication the private admonition of an vnlawfull member is of force to be submitted vnto then in the want of iust deposition the publique admonition or other workes of governement exercised by vnlawfull ministers is of force to be submitted vnto This reason is specially to be considred of those Brownistes that mainteyne the popular governement submit vnto the same 36. BVt Delescluse addes his reason why such vnlawfull ministers are not to be submitted vnto For sayth he Are they not all thieves and robbers which enter not in by the dore but climbe vp an other way And will any man of wisedome commit vnto the protection and and keeping of theeves the least part of his worldly goods No none wilde so vnwise for every one ●ndweth that they will but make a pray of them and spoile and rob them And shall any then be so carefull for thinges of so small importance and shall he not care vnto whom he doth commit the guidance of that which is the principall namely of his soule First we do directly affirme that which Delescluse doth so flatly deny Many men of wisedome may will ought to commit vnto the protection