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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A91190	A full reply to certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on Master Prynnes twelve questions about church-government: vvherein the frivolousnesse, falsenesse, and grosse mistakes of this anonymous answerer (ashamed of his name) and his weak grounds for independency, and separation, are modestly discovered, refelled. / By William Prynne of Lincolnes Inne, Esquire.	Prynne, William, 1600-1669.	1644 (1644)	Wing P3966; Thomason E257_7; ESTC R210038	32,460	24

A FVLL REPLY To certaine briefe Observations and Anti-Queries ON Master PRYNNES twelve Questions about Church-Government Wherein the Frivolousnesse Falsenesse and grosse Mistakes of this Anonymous Answerer ashamed of his Name and his weak grounds for Independency and Separation are modestly discovered refelled By William Prynne of Lincolnes Inne Esquire Socrates Scholasticus Eccles. Hist. l. 5. c. 20. Ecclesia cum semel esset divisa non una divisione acquievit sed homines ab se mutuò aversi al●er ab altero denuò scesserunt atque adeò EXIGVAM LEVICVLAMQVE OCCASIONEM nacti mutuae communionis consociationisque vincula disruperunt Mark 9. 50. Have salt in your selves and have peace one with another Iohn 18. 37. To this end was I born and for this cause come I into the world that I should beare witnesse unto the truth Gal. 4. 16. Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth LONDON Printed by F. L. for Michael Sparke Senior and are to bee sold at the Blew-Bible in Green-Arbour 1644. A full Reply to certaine briefe Observations and Anti-queries to Mr Prynnes Twelve Questions about Church-Government OF all the vanities and vexations of spirit enumerated by the royall Preacher this is one of the principall a That for all travell and every right worke a man is envied yea many times hated oppugned by his neighbour This hath been alwayes my condition heretofore and now my best actions and publike services for the common good have been misconstrued traduced nay censured in an high degree as evill by many though blessed be God approved yea gratefully accepted by the best-affected to the felicity tranquilliry of Church and State The importunity of some Reverend friends lamenting the deplorable distractions of our Church which threaten disunion and so ruine to us in these unhappy times of intestine warres prevailed so farre as to induce me to compile and publish Twelve considerable serious questions touching Church-government out of a cordial desire as much as in me lay to close up not widen our divisions Which though they have given ample satisfaction to many truely religious of all ranks and qualities who have returned me speciall thanks yet they have found very harsh entertainment from others who of Friends b are become my professed Antagonists if not enemies in print because I have told them the truth to whom I should have returned no Reply but silence there being nought in these Observations worthy answer but only to rectifie some mistakes therin and shew the opposite party those common errours whereby they deceive themselves and others The first thing this namelesse Respondent quarrels with is c For my writing by may of Quere To which I answer that I had both Presidents and Reasons for it Presidents from our Saviour himselfe who both instructed refuted convinced his opposites and auditors by demanding Questions onely Luk. 2. 46 47. Matth. 11. 1 to 20. c. 12. 3 to 13. 26. 27. 29. c. 21. 23 to 43. c. 22. 18 to 23. c. 16. 26. Presidents from Philosophers Fathers School-men and all sorts of Writers ancient modern over-tedious to recite Reasons 1. I conceived the Questions touching church-government were not rightly stated by most and that the right stating of them by way of Question would be the best and speediest meanes to decide them 2. The Independent party had neither then nor since to my knowledg dogmatically resolved or discovered in print what that church-government is they so eagerly contend for and pretend to be so plainly set down in the Word of God and therefore I conjectured such Queries to be the onely meanes to discover and refute their concealed Platforme 3. The controversies concerning church-government were then and now in agitation in the Synode and high Court of Parliament the properest Iudges of them therefore I thought it better became me in point of modesty and good manners to expresse my opinion of them by way of Question then Decision Finally I found all Independents guilty of Petitio principii in their Writings Sermons Discourses peremptorily concluding their forme of church-government to d be the onely Government instituted by Christ the ONLY WAY OF GOD which hath more of God and Christ in it then any other the Kingdome Scepter and Throne of Christ himselfe and no other way beside it e That by the beauty and perfect consonancy of this Government with the Word of God it may very reasonably yea and upon higher termes then of reason bee thought THAT IN TIME IT CANNOT BVT OVERTHROW ALL SORTS OF ECCLESIASTICALL GOVERNMENT and I feare civill too by the selfe-same-reason AND STAND VP IT SELFE IN THEIR STEAD which they close up with a Faxit Deus festinet and that writing or disputing against this Government or opposing it in any kind yea in thought is no lesse then f A FIGHTING AGAINST GOD which will bring certain ruine on our Realme in generall and all private open opposers of it yet not one of them nor this Respondent hath hitherto fully discovered to us what this WAY or Government is nor produced any one Scripture or Reason to warrant these superlative Encomiums of it but we must take all they say as Gospel upon their own bare words without examination or dispute And therefore I proposed these with 12 other subsequent Questions to them to induce them to make good these transcendent that I say not arrogant Positions touching their Way since I seriously professe before God Angels and men that I could never yet discover the least footsteps of it in Scripture or Antiquity nor defery this their Patern in the Mount which no age till ours had ever the happiness to behold if it be worth the viewing when unvailed by them to us Having thus given this Respondent the true grounds of my writing by way of Question I shall briefly answer all his materiall Observations and Anti-queries upon my twelve Questions pretermitting his Impertinencies 1. To the first Question the Respondent gives no Answer at all to the things demanded but only misrecites the Question without my limitations and then seemes to refute what himselfe propounds not I He should have demonstrated by direct Scriptures That Christ hath prescribed one set immutable forme of Government to all Christian Nations Churches in the World from which none must vary in the least degree without sinne schisme or being no true Churches of Christ with whom good Christians may with safe conscience communicate that nothing herein is or can be left free to humane prudence And then have positively delineated exactly proved the modell of this pretended Government Discipline in every particle thereof by Gospel-Texts so far as to satisfie mens erronious judgments consciences herein that so they might either submit thereto without dispute or propound their objections against the same But in this maine point whereon the hinge of the controversie turnes the Respondent is wholly silent and I shall expect his answer ad

Graecas Calendas Only lest he might seem to say nothing he endevours to prove that there is a set forme of Church-government prescribed by Christ in the Gospel not by direct Texts but from pretended absurdities of his owne fancying for which he can produce no Text nor Reason wherein he hath prevaricated and shewes himselfe absurd First writes he if this were granted that there is no such set form of Church-government prescribed to all the Gospell would be * straiter then the Law Christ more unfaithfull then Moses If we deny these absurd consequences you shall have these sound proofes of both subjoined God set a patterne to * Moses of a carnall Temple you mistake good Sir it was a Tabernacle and that not carnall which he charged him not to vary from in a tittle well I grant it because you produce two full Scriptures for it Ergo he hath prescribed a set pattern of Church-government and Discipline to all Christian Nations Churches in the new Testament from which they must not vary in one tittle If he or any other can shew me such a pattern as he contends for so clearly delineated to us in the new Testament as that pattern of the Tabernacle God shewed Moses was in the old and then produce as direct precepts enjoyning all Christians Republikes Churches not to vary from it in one tittle as Moses had not to vary from his I shall beleeve his sequell till then I shall deeme it a true Independent argument and as grosse a Non-sequitur as this which necessarily followes upon the concession of it God shewed and prescribed to Moses the expresse pattern or fashion of Aarons and his Sons garments ornaments under the Law Exod. 28. Ergo he hath likewise shewed and prescribed the expresse pattern fashion and colour of all Bishops Presbyters Ministers garments ornaments under the Gospel most likely in the Roman Ceremoniall and Pontificall If the one consequence be ridiculous the other must needs be so But to quell this your principall Argument First the patterne in the mount was meant onely of the materials forme vessels and utensils of the Tabernacle not of the Government and Discipline of the Iewish church therefore very impertinent to prove a setled Church-government Discipline under the Gospel Secondly it was shewed only to Moses the temporall Magistrate and chief Ruler of the Israelites not to Aaron or any private Independent Priest or Synagogue of the Iewes yea Moses not they was to make or see all things made according to the pattern in the mount Ergo if there be any consequence from this patterne not the Independent Minister or congregation but Kings chief temporall Magistrates and Parliaments the supreme civill Powers Councels are likewise under the Gospell to prescribe and set up such a church-government as is agreeable to Gods Word as Moses Joshua David Solomon Hezekiah Josiah Nehemiah and other godly Princes Governours with their Parliaments or generall Assemblies did under the Law And then what becomes of your Independent Ministers Congregations claimes to this Soveraigne temporall jurisdiction a part of Christs Kingly office delegated onely to Kings and highest temporall powers which was never conferred on them In fine if there be any such expresse unalterable divine patterne of church-government under the Gospel I pray informe me why it was not as punctually as particularly described in the new Testament as the forme of the Tabernacle of its materialls with all the services ornaments appurtenances of it and of the Temple were under the Law Nay why was the Tabernacle altered into a * Temple different from it and why did the second * Temple vary from the first and that in the self same Church and Nation If these were patterns of the church-government under the Gospel and yet varied altered successively in this manner then by consequence the Government Discipline under the Gospel is variable alterable too and so not fixed nor immutable His second Argument That Christ should neither be faithfull as a husband head nor King of his Church if he should give others power to order it as they pleased to their owne civill Government not setting downe his owne Lawes for them to walke by is both a fallacy and absurdity There is no man doubts but that Christ in the Scriptures which some of you refuse to heare read in our Churches though * publicke reading of them be Gods owne ordinance hath prescribed to us all necessary Rules and Lawes both for our faith and lives either in a generall or speciall manner but that Christ hath punctually and particularly set downe any exact unalterable form of church-government for all Christian Nations Churches to follow under pain of being unfaithfull in all the former respects and that the Independent Modell alone is that very patterne the onely point in question remains on your part to make good A man may be a faithfull husband King Master Father though he prescribe not distinct particular Lawes to regulate each particular action of his Wife Subjects Servants Children * Let all things be done decently and in order a generall rule for church-government is sufficient to excuse Christ from these your presumptuous reproaches and regulate all particulars though left indefinite His third Argument that Rev. 11. 1 2. we read of a † measuring of the Temple and Rev. 21. 1 2. of the new Jerusalem comming downe from God out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband Ergo there is a setled divine church-government universally prescribed to all Christians in the new Testament is no better a proofe of this assertion then the Angel of the Church of Ephesus is of our Prelates Lordly hierarchy jure divino He might as well yea more properly have concluded thence That the Altar was measured as well as the Temple Revelat. 11. 1. referring onely to the * Jewish not christian Church which hath no * Temple nor Altar Ergo we ought to have an Altar yea and one set form of Altars in all christian Churches under the Gospell which I hope you dare not averre After these three Independent Arguments he pretends my third Quere contradicts the first because I suppose a church-government may be consonant to Gods Word in the generall which is not particularly prescribed in it A pretty fancy As if nothing could be consonant to Gods Word which is not particularized or verbally enjoyned in it Are not our materiall churches garments temporall Magistrates Majors Corporations Parliaments Courts of justice Laws of all sorts yea Festivals Covenants monthly Fasts c. consonant to Gods Word because not literally prescribed in it Are your private church-covenants unmixt Communions as you phrase them erections of Independent congregations without the licence of temporall Magistrates not consonant to the Word in your owne opinions though no where extant in it If not then all your divine pretences for them vanish and you yeeld your cause If yea you must then recant this

the h Policy practise of most Godly Magistrates Princes Ministers Churches in all Ages Nations which never indulged such liberty to opinions new wayes practises especially to new Church-governments Schismes and Conventicles which he here pleads for set up only by private spirits in opposition to the publick established Church-regelment Indeed in some matters mearly of opinion which are not dangerous or schismaticall some latitude may and must be left to men but matters of Government are such tender things as differences varieties therin cannot be tollerated in one and the selfe same Church and State without infinite inconveniencies and disturbances especially where every Church shall be Independent subject to no other Canons rules but its own peculiar arbitrary Dictates 2 It may be questioned whether the Independent way he there so earnestly pleads for be the way of Christ or not since he neither discovers to us what it is nor produceth any one text to prove it Christs own way nor one example to warrant it in any age but gives us good grounds to suspect it none of his without much scrutiny 1 For first he comeneth i that this way is every where spoken against even by some that would be thought prime men and pillars in the temple of God and insinuates that the Parliament Assembly and generality of the k Ministers and people of the Realm are bent against it Therefore being a new way never yet heard off in the world in any age or Church of Christ and thus generally opposed by our whole Church and State even in these times of Reformation we may l justly suspect it is no way of Christ till we see its approbation written in a beam of the Sun with the finger of God himself and till he hath justified and owned it as his from heaven 2 He tacitly acknowledgeth it a m Government set up by a few private men not only without but against the authority commands of the Parliament and supream temporall Magistrates yea which not only denyes but oppugnes the temporall Magistrates Parliaments Synods directions or coercive power in Ecclesiasticall affairs directly contrary to the Scriptures as I have largely proved by many Texts in my o Independency examined Only I shall adde that not only the Kings and temporall Magistrates of the Israelites but even heathen p Kings and Princes as Cyrus Artaxerxes Darius Nebuchadnezzars the King Nobles of Nineve c. enacted good and wholsom Laws for the worship honor and service of the true God and to further his people in the building of his temple who thereupon were enjoyned to pray for their prosperity as the marginall Scriptures evidence Yea r Paul himselfe even in matters of Religion pleaded his cause before Festus Felix King Agrippa and at last appealed unto Caesar an heathen Emperor herein yea he enjoyns all Christians Å¿ to pray even for heathen Kings Magistrates and to submit to all their lawfull commands for conscience sake to whose judicature and tribunals t Christ himself and his Apostles willingly submitted themselves upon all occasions when brought before them without demurring to their jurisdictions Therefore Christian Princes Magistrates who were long since predicted to become nursing Fathers to the Church under the Gospel have much more power and jurisdiction in Church-government and affairs within their own Dominions 3 For that it appears to be away that will breed infinite confusions disorders by confounding v the bounds of parishes renting Congregations families and most relations assunder giving way to every sect to chuse Ministers erect Churches of their own without controle in point of position though their practise be quite contrary where they have power they admitting no other kind of government but Independency in New-England and excommunicating or banishing those who will not submit unto it a government inconsistent with Royalty and the civill government and so none of Christs who never erected any Church-gouernment to clash with or controle the civill 4 Whereas he pretends that x persons of one family or parish may be members of severall Churches without any inconvenience schisme or distraction as well as members of severall companies and trades and therefore Ind-pendency is no occasion of divisions I answer 1 That y two cannot walke peaceably and-lovingly together unlesse they are agreed especially in matters of Religion and those who in point of conscience cannot communicate or agree together in one Church will never questionlesse accord well together in one family bed parish kingdom as experience manifests 2 There is a great difference between severall trades and Halls in one City parish kingdome and severall formes of Church-government in these particulars which occasion unity in the one but schismes in the others 1. All trades societies hold one another lawfull usefull necessary agreeable to the lawes of God and the Realme without dispute so they breed no contrariety of opinions or disaffection but each different Church deems the other unlawful in no way of Christ so as they cannot with safe conscience joyn or communicate together and thereupon they fever one from another 2. Every several trade and society even in their very trade is subject to the general Government Laws of the City Realm wherin they are to which they appeale and have recourse upon all occasions of difference none craving an exemption or Independency from the whole Corporation Parliament or supream Magistrate in matters which concern their government but deriving their Corporations Charters Laws and priviledges from them which subordination keep them all in peace and unity But Independent Churches deny any subordination subjection to the Ecclesiasticall Lawes and Edicts of Parlements of temporall Magistrates or Synods and will be regulated obliged onely by their own peculiar Edicts which must needs occasion infinite Schismes and disorders therefore the cases are far different from one the other Thirdly Christians as Christians are all of one and the self-same society and profession as those of one Trade or Calling are therefore they should have all but one common Church and government as these Trades have To set then the comparison upright we must state it thus If some of one Fraternity in London suppose the Merchant-taylers Sadlers Mercers or the like should fall out among themselves and one would have one forme of government another another and thereupon divide themselves into severall conventicles and petty meetings in corners not at their common hall and one chuse one Government Master or Warden another another and so sever the company and continue independent this no doubt would prove an apparent schisme and seminary of infinite divisions to the distraction destruction of the whole Company and Fraternity This is the true state of your Independency yea Mr Goodwins present case in his own Parish miserably divided disordered by his Independent way which hath induced him to refuse to administer the Lords Supper yea Baptisme to some children of

the false Apostles lyars as he assirmeth but to debate and consider THIS QVESTION AND MATTER whether the Gentiles ought to be circumcised To his fourth I say that though this meeting was occasional yet it i● a sufficient warrant for generall meetings which are usually called only upon speciall occasions of moment In it there was a generall assembling of all the Apostles Elders and Brethren at Hierusalem where there were then divers particular congregations as our Assembly long since resolved from Acts 2. 6. 41 42. 46 47. c. 4. 4. c. 5. 14 15 16 42. c. 6. 1 to 9. c. 8. 2 3 4. c. 11. 1 2. c. 12. 12 13. c. 21. 17 18 23 22. which if Independents deny then they must prove that all the Apostles and Elders at Hierusalem were Pastors but of one and the self-same individuall congregation and then what becomes of their Independent churches which have no Apostle and onely one Pastor but scarce any Elders in them who upon this speciall and some other publike occasions met all together and that not to advise onely but determine and resolve as is evident by vers 6. to 32. c. 16. 4. c. 21. 25. which compared with the Texts of the old Testament in the Margin of my Quere where we finde frequent Nationall generall Assemblies Synods or Parliaments if I may so stile them among the Israelites prescribed appointed by God and no wayes contradicted revoked under the Gospel determining † all Ecclesiasticall controversies setling ordering all church-affaires matters concerning the Arke Temple Sacrifices Passeover Priests Nationall covenants Fasting-dayes Festivalls suppressions of Idolatry false-Worship Reliques of Idolatry and the like are an impregnable evidence of the lawfulnesse of Nationall Synods Parliaments Assemblies in all Christian Kingdomes Republikes upon the like occasions and that they are endued with equivalent authority there being no one Text in the old or new Testament nor any shadow of reason but meer shifts or obstinacy of spirit against publike goverment order and authority to controll it If any pretend they doe it onely out of conscience if they will but seriously gage their owne deceitfull hearts I feare their conscience will prove but wilfulnesse having neither precept president nor reason to direct it So as I may truely retort his owne calumny against me on him and his that his and their own name will or opinion is their onely argument against this shining truth which all ages Churches have acknowledged ratified practised without the least dispute To my ninth Quere and arguments in it he returnes nothing worthy Reply but upon this Petitio principii or begging of the thing disputed that the Scripture and Apostles have prescribed a set forme of Government in all after ages for the Churches of Christ which he neither can nor endevours to prove and that Churches in the Apostles dayes were Independent though doubtlesse all Churches were then subject to the Apostles Lawes Orders Edicts Decisions though no immediate Ministers or Pastors of them as appeares by their Epistles to them therefore not Independent so as my arguments hold firme and his answers weak As for his retorted argument That the Scriptures were writ in the infancy of the Church Therefore wiser and better Scriptures may be writ now it is a blasphemous and absurd conclusion they being all writ by the spirit and inspiration of God himselfe the very * Ancient of dayes who hath neither infancy nor perfection as the Church hath To his second that I would needs make a Nationall Church State more perfect understanding and wise th●n a congregationall I feare not to averre it since your selves must grant that the Church under the Law was more perfect then that before it the Church under the Gospel more perfect then that under the Law and the Churches under the Gospel at the end of the Apostles dayes when furnished with more divine knowledge Scriptures Gospels Officers and rules of Faith Manners Discipline more compleat and perfect then at their beginning to preach No man doubts that though a * new-born infant and Christian have all the parts and members of a man and Saint yet they have not so much perfection understanding knowledg judgment strength of grace or spirituall wisdome as grown men and Christians An aged expetienced growne Minister Christian is more compleat and perfect theu a new converted † Novice or Babe in grace Ergo a growne and Nationall Church then one but in the Embryo Your Independent Churches in their primitive infancy when they had but two or three members onely in them and wanted both Elders Deacons and other necessary church-officers as Mr. Sympsons church first did I am certain in your own opinion were not so complete and mature as you intended to make them afterwards by degrees a Village is not so complete a Republike or Corporation as a City nor a City as a † Kingdom nor a Family as a County nor a Consistory as a Synod nor a court of Aldermen as a common-councell nor that as a Parliament Therefore an Independent singular congregation not so complete as a Nationall church being oft enforced to pray in the aid of other churches for advice assistance c. as your selves confesse which an whole Nationall Church need not to doe In fine himselfe confesseth that the Apostles made new rules for government and discipline as occasion served and that as God fitted occasions so he made knowne new rules successively by degrees not at once and added new Officers as Evangelicall Bishops Elders Deacons Widowes Evangelists Doctors Pastors Teachers which some distinguish from Presbyters and define to be severall offices Therefore the infant Church in the Apostles dayes was not so compleat perfect in all parts as the multiplied and growne churches afterwards My tenth Quere he wilfully misrecites as he doth the rest else he had not the least shadow of exception against it as I propounded it and then returnes an answer by way of dilemma to it To which I reply That if the Parliament and Synod shall by publike consent establish a Presbyteriall church-government as most consonant to Gods Word the Lawes and Reiglement of this Kingdome Independents and all others are bound in conscience to submit unto it under paine of obstinacy singularity c. in case they cannot really prove it diametrally contrary to the Scriptures and simply unlawfull in point of conscience not by fancies or remote inconsequences but by direct Texts and precepts which they can never doe and that because it is thus commanded established by the higher powers to which in all lawfull or indifferent things wee are bound to render all chearfull obedience without resistance even for conscience sake by expresse Gospel Texts Rom. 13. 1 to 7. Tit. 3. 1. 1 Pet. 2. 14 15. which I wish you would practise better and make make more conscience of then now you doe As for his crosse Interrogatories I answer 1. That if the Popes Councels command lawfull things to those who