Selected quad for the lemma: christian_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
christian_n	christian_a	church_n	society_n	2,901	5	9.2764	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A43313	An essay for the discovery and discouraging of the new sprung schism raised and maintained by Mr Simon Henden of Bennenden in Kent. Exhibited in some passages of writing which have gone between Mr John Elmeston of Cranebroke, and the same M. Henden. Published according to order.	Elmeston, John.; Henden, Simon, attributed name.	1652 (1652)	Wing H1429B; ESTC R216858	34,427	52

should not blow on the earth nor on the sea c. If it be certainly to be understood of the withholding of the Spirit from breathing in the Ordinances for others carry it fairly enough to another sense 1. There is nothing said in that place for the continuance how long the restraint should last much lesse is it shewed that it should last during the Apostasie 2. It may well be meant of a more sparing breathing in comparison of Primitive times not of an utter restraint 3. If it be understood of an utter restraint take notice I pray that the restraint is general and cannot by any circumstance of the Text be confined only to official preaching and Preachers as you speak but as fully reach any Preachers even your gifted men as well as them and so doth conclude an utter ceasing of the Spirit to breathe now or then in or by any means Ordinances or Preachers whatsoever which is grosly false and to affirm it were exceeding derogatory to the Lords free grace and mans salvation Seventhly In the next place it follows that we take a view of your distinction of Ordinances and your opinion about them Touching which you say some are founded more immediately on our spiritual Union with Christ I conceive you mean and the Covanant of Grace and Ministry Baptism the Lords Supper Praier Profession c. 2. Such as are footed on Church-stating such as appertain to officials yea deemed essential to them as Ordination Confirmation Excommunication Admission Absolution c. The first of these have been kept up you say thorow all the time of the deepest Apostasie and are now used rightly and to be used The second have not been alwaies rightly used but it seems to you have been and are so lost that as yet there is no due time or place for their exercise This I take to be your meaning about this point of Ordinances If I mistake it is because the matter is set down somewhat intricately by you Now touching this point we have many things to reply First I would know What Ministry you mean hath alwaies been kept up Whether a Ministry exercised onely by virtue of Gifts enabling men unto it or such as is exercised by virtue of an Office also and right calling thereunto If the first be meant it is a matter in much question Whether such a standing Ministry were ever allowed by Christ and it must be proved before we can receive it Surely if such a Ministry be currant and sufficiently authorized for ministring Word and Sacraments there was no need of an official Ministry and Christ it seems therein ordained a superfluous Ordinance according to that common Axiom Frustra fit per plura quod fieri potest per pauciora It is a vain thing and not beseeming a wise man to use many wayes to do that which may be done by a few If the latter be meant why are official Ministers by you questioned Secondly It may be asked Why you put Profession and Prayer in general in the rank of Ordinances There is a wide difference between Ordinances and Duties As to believe in Christ is a Duty not an Ordinance so to make Profession of the Christian faith is also a Duty which appertains to particular Christians in their own person so to whole Churches in their Society So likewise is Prayer as it belongs to particular men of which Paul speaks specially Colos. 4. 2. Onely publick Prayer as it is performed by the Minister in publick Assemblies for Gods Worship may come under the notion of an Ordinance Ordinances to speak properly of them are those solemn means which Christ hath appointed in his Church according to his sovereign power and good-will to communicate his grace unto us and to perform our solemn Worship unto him as the publick preaching of the Word celebration of the Sacraments publick prayer publick thanksgivings fastings or to provide for the right performance of these things as combination of Christians into church-Church-societies the election and ordination of Ministers and exercises of Church-Discipline Now profession and prayer are such duties as flow from that natural relation which is between God the Creator and the creature and were owing unto God without any special institution Thirdly You say That the last kinde of Ordinances are essential to Officials an improper yea false assertion unlesse you mean no more then what you said elswhere that they appertain to Officers For nothing is essential to a Church-officer or any other thing but the Matter and Form thereof which doth constitute them The Matter of an Officer are Gifts enabling him to perform it the Form an orderly putting him into that Office by such as have Authority and giving him a right to execute it The Exercise of some thing may properly and onely belong to Officers as preaching the Word and administring the Sacraments to Pastors and Teachers rightly called which yet are not essential to them Nothing can subsist or have a being in nature wanting its essentials A Pastor or Teacher may be such an one in Office and yet letted by sicknesse or some other wayes that for many weeks together he neither preach nor administer the Sacraments Fourthly It is not truly said That some Ordinances are more immediately founded in our Union with Christ For no Ordinances can be said to be founded on our Union with Christ Such things onely can rightly be said to be founded on that Union which as the proper fruit and effects thereof do flow from it to our salvation as Calling Justification Sanctification c. It may be granted that an holy right to these Ordinances and the blessed fruit of them comes and proceeds from our Union with Christ but not the Ordinances themselves of which many partake which have not nor ever shall have Union with Christ Indeed they tend either to bring men to that blessed Union or to nourish and stablish them in it To which purpose in their place serve those latter kinde of Ordinances yea Excommunication it self which is specially ordained for the good of the Elect to heal and recover them if they fall scandalously by cutting them off to the end they may repent and be restored or to prevent their infection by putting scandalous and infectious persons out of their Society But for the foundation of these and all Ordinances it is in the Institution of our Lord Jesus Christ consisting partly in a command for the use of them and partly in the promise of a blessing on the right use of them as for Teaching and Baptism is to be seen Matth. 28. 19 20. and for the Lords Supper 1 Cor. 11. 24. Fifthly It may be granted you That these Ordinances are some way founded on the Covenant of Grace if by founded you onely mean that they are some effects of it For as God by that Covenant doth oblige himself to give grace and salvation to his Elect so by consequence to provide for them all means outward and inward

view of all the Israelites so those Books of Scripture though I exclude none which are plainest and most obvious to the understanding of all Christians are specially to be accounted as our pillar of cloud and fire to direct us how and where in all ages we should follow the Lamb Thirdly It is strange to me that you should affirm That the foundation of the Beast doth consist in an usurped power of Church-Discipline footed on mans will without Gods call It is true that what Discipline is exercised only on mans will without Gods call is bestial as you term it and Antichristian As 1. That which for the thing it self was wholly invented by Antichrist not being once mentioned in the Gospel such was amongst others the Popes interdicting of whole Realms for having any service of God used in them upon their offending against his commands and Ordinances 2. And if for the matter it self it were Christs Discipline yet it was managed not by the hands of Christs Officers but of Antichrist and against Christs faithfull servants such was Excommunication exercised by the Pope papal Bishops Commissaries and the like Notwithstanding Discipline nor the usurped power of it cannot be the foundation of the Beast There are three things in Christian and so in Antichristian Religion Doctrine Worship and Discipline and these so answer one another that look what place any one of them hath in the one the same it hath in the other Religion Now none ever did or can affirm Discipline to be the foundation of Christian Religion it is but as the roof or at best but as the wals of it and serves to beautifie or to guard and preserve it It is sound Doctrine in the principles of faith that is the foundation of Christian Religion 1 Cor 3. 11. So it is the false Doctrine of the Roman Church that is the foundation of the Beast and Antichristian Religion And this the Apostle S. John doth teach 1 Joh 4. 23. Every one that confesseth Christ to be come in the flesh is of God but every one that denieth Christ to be come in the flesh is not of God this is the spirit of Antichrist It is in effect as much as if he had said Sound Doctrine concerning Christ his Nature Person and Offices is the main ground and mark of Christian Religion and false doctrine touching these things the principal note and ground of Antichristian Religion Besides the Popes extravagant exercise of Discipline in excommunicating suspending c. not onely single persons but whole Nations and disposing all Church-dignities c. was founded on that false Doctrine which was first laid That the Pope was an Vniversal Bishop Vicar of Christ and the visible Head of the Church Doctrine then is the foundation of the Beast and not the usurped power of Church-Discipline Lastly None can comply with the Beast in the foundation of his estate without losse of his salvation as who doth lie and relie on some other besides the onely foundation of salvation which is Jesus Christ and worshippeth the Beast in acknowledging him for the Vicar of Christ in the Church and supreme Head under him and submits to his Decrees and new Articles of faith But many may and have too much complied with the Beast in the exercise of Discipline viz. Excommunication Suspension Ordination c managing it in a Popish manner whom yet we have just cause to acknowledge and should deal most uncharitably not to acknowledge for the main to have been godly Christians and out of doubt saved Such as were those Diocesan Bishops in Queen Maries dayes Ridley Latimer Hooper c. and Grindal Jewel and others in Queen Elizabeths Reign Fourthly It is a new conceit not heard of before among Interpreters of the Apocalyps and which I cannot imbrace That in these our times we are called onely to separating from Babylon and rewarding her so that upon separating from her if Gods people go further as to set up reformed Churches and gather themselves into Church-order it is in your opinion against or at least without Gods command But First This is a course flat contrary to that which the Lord hath followed and prescribed to his people in former times whose separation from Idolaters and prophane Nations was still accompanied with a present setting up of a Church-society for Gods service and mutual edification No sooner did God call Abraham out of his idolatrous Countrey but he set up a visible Church in his Family teaching him to call on God and set up alturs for his Worship Gen. 12. 8 and furnishing him with some power of Discipline Genes 17. 14. and 18. 19. So when the Lord brought the Israelites out of Aegypt he brought them not out to wander up and down as a confused multitude but within short time formed them into a Church and within a year or thereabouts gave them the Law furnished them with a Tabernacle Sacrifices Ministry and Ordinances of all sorts This did the Jews also upon their return out of Babylon take to be their duty in a Church-way to set up Gods worship in building the Temple providing Sacrifices restoring the Ministery and ordering means for them And when the Jews slacked their hand this way upon a pretence that the due time to build the house of God was not yet come much like as you now say it is not yet time to set up visible Churches or Church-Discipline they were reproved for the slacknesse and vain pretence by the Prophet Haggai Hag. 1. 3 5. And did not the Apostles the like also at the first preaching of the Gospel so call men from Paganism and Judaism as those that did separate from them and imbrace the Gospel were with all convenient speed gathered and formed into Christian Churches to exercise Gods Worship and Discipline among themselves And what sound reason can be given why the separation Gods people are called to Revel. 18. 4. should not be thus presently followed with joyning together in visible Churches to serve God aright and enjoy all his Ordinances but that they must remain a separated people without any Church-order among themselves untill all the vials be poured out that is none knows how long Secondly This is against a common rule for interpretation of Scripture Among which rules this is an approved one That what Scripture doth command the avoiding any thing as evil the same doth virtually command the pursuing of the contrary good Hence commonly those two commands go together Flee evil and follow good Psal. 34. 14. Isa. 16. 17. Rom. 12. 9. and in many other places The reason whereof is plain because as the perfection of a good tree is not in wanting bad fruit but in bearing good so the true goodnesse of a Christian is not in forbearing evil but in doing good This then is certain that the voice from Heaven which cals Gods people to depart from Babylon as idolatrous and to keep themselves from her sins doth virtually call upon them

to seek our Sion and to joyn with her in society for the worship of God which Sion if it were not then extant or to be enjoyed the command were vain and their endeavour would be to no purpose Thirdly This conceit and course doth cast a foul blot of gross ignorance or rash presumption upon all reformed Churches which upon their breaking off from Rome have not contented themselves with a bare separation but did also set up evangelical Churches opposite to the Roman for Doctrine Worship and Discipline some lesse and some more pure and perfect So hath all Reformation been practised in Germany France Netherland Scotland Old and New England of late And what man is he or who be they unlesse they can prove themselves new Apostles or Prophets or have the pregnant word of God for it and build not only upon their own conjectural interpretation of prophetical mysteries about which other godly learned are at a stand who will presume to tax and blemish so many famous Churches and so many godly and learned Divines which were their guides and leaders Surely it is not piety to condemn the generation of the righteous Psalm 73. 15. nor humility to slight the consent of so many Churches of God 1 Cor. 11. 16. Fourthly It is well worth the while to scan the time when this call for separation Revel. 18. 4. was given And if all circumstances be well weighed this call was not proclaimed untill God had put it into the heart of some Kings and States to joyn to invade and destroy Rome itself which preparation is intimated before Chap. 17. 16. and was surely about the pouring out of the last or some of the last vials And now being ready to give the on-set on Rome by this voice they are called on to plague her thorowly Revel. 18. 6. At which time this call is directed to such of Gods people as might then be hidden in that idolatrous City or the adjoining Territories by a personal flight to forsake her and those places of danger and provide for their safety Which things considered it is not clear that the time of this call is yet come since we see small preparation made as yet or intended by Christian States or Princes against Rome the Throne of the Beast or Italy his Nest and Fortresse And how long it will be ere this be effected onely the Lord knows I am sure that most accounts that learned men have hitherto made of these things have missed and they are in a mist about the three or four last vials not being able certainly to unfold them So that if you have no other ground for your separation then that call as you produce none other you are in danger to prevent the due time of separation and to do all you do in it meerly upon your own will without Gods call As for the spiritual separation made by Protestant Princes and Churches from Rome in Doctrine and Worship as they had a warrant for it from this call the reasons whereof being such as belong to all times and persons not to partake in Romes sins do sufficiently enforce it so had they pregnant grounds for it also from other general commands to flee Idolatry and set up Gods Worship I may last ask Why you and your company go farther in your practice then bare separation For if by separation Revel. 18. 4. you understand a separation meerly negative to be meant as you needs must to make it serve your turn by what warrant do you on the Lords-day celebrate holy Assemblies and exercise the main parts of Gods Worship by your selves and in opposition to our publick Assemblies which you account bestial For this kinde of separation allows no such practice but confines it self to an abstaining from all communion in the publick Worship if corrupt and so farre as it is corrupt But if it be a positive separation that the godly are called to as your practice doth interpret it then nothing lets but others also may set up Churches for the enjoying of all Ordinances as well as you for some And surely when the Apostle did urge such a call for separation unto the Corinthians 1 Cor. 6. 17. out of Isa. 52. 11. he did conceive that the Christians of Corinth were not onely called barely to separate from Paganish Idolatry but also to join together in the true worship of God Fifthly Here follow some things which I apprehend to be some reasons of this your Assertion touching this point of separation 1. We are yet you say but in our journey to Sion visibly separated and not arrived thither and so may not take on us to set up Sion-like Churches Answ. But why are we but on our journey unto Sion visibly separated when as the Apostle describeth this to be the estate of all imbracing the Gospel that they are come to Mount Sion and the celestial Jerusalem and the same not meerly invisible but visibly separated from the impious world Heb. 12. 22. 2. St John saw many thousands Revel. 14. 1. walking with the Lamb on Mount Sion and the same visible as seen by John during the time of the great Apostasie and before the time of this more publick departure and Reformation And why may not our late reformed Christians be ranged among those thousands and admitted to the same Mount Sion with them since in their Reformation they have endeavoured to conform unto them 1. In bearing their Fathers name in their forehead by an open profession of Religion 2 In restoring an orderly performance of Gods Worship by the Ministery and Church-assemblies as they praised God before the four Beasts and the Elders 3. In ascribing their redemption only to God and praising him for it which is meant by the new Song those hundred fourty four thousand did sing 4. By cleansing themselves from Popish Idolatry as those kept themselves virgins and undefiled 5. By holding forth the practice of holinesse as in the mouths of the other there was no guile 3. Admit that we be but in our way to this Sion what lets but that we may set up and use all Gods Ordinances as well as some in this our journey The Israelites whenas they were but in their way to Canaan had all Gods Ordinances set up amongst them and made use of them more or lesse as their unsetled estate and sudden occasions of removing would give leave What you seem elswhere to conclude to this purpose from the Jews bringing along the Temple-vessels with them from Babylon but not officiating with them in their way shall in its place be considered About these matters you referre me to Revel. 15. 8. where we read that the Temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God c. that none could enter into it untill the seven plagues of the seven Angels were fulfilled From whence it seems you would conclude that we are not yet come to Sion Answ. I wish you had made the argument your self opened the