Selected quad for the lemma: christian_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
christian_n	christian_a	church_n	pastor_n	1,389	5	9.1051	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A14254	The sacke of Roome exsequuted by the Emperour Charles armie euen at the natiuitie of this Spanish Kinge Philip. Notablie described in a Spanish dialogue, with all the horrible accidents of this sacke, and abhominable sinnes, superstitions & diseases of that cittie, which prouoked these iust iudgements of God. Translated latelie into the English tounge, neuer fitter to bee read nor deeplier considered, then euen now at this present time.; Diálogo en que particularmente se tratan las cosas acaecidas en Roma el año de M.D.XXVII. English	Valdés, Alfonso de, d. 1532.	1590 (1590)	STC 24569; ESTC S101792	58,810	80

the rest of the Christians shall they not as well bee the Church as they Arch. They say yes Latt Then the Seignorie and authoritie of the Church consisteth rather in men then in gouernment of Townes and therefore shall the Church be wel established when it shall haue many Christians and then dispoiled when it shall haue few Arch. That seemes to mee to be true Latt Now then he that is the cause of the destruction of any one Christian man dispoileth more the Church of Iesus Christ then he that taketh from the Pope his temporall dignities Arch. Let it be so Latt Then tel me now you what number of Christians haue perished since the Pope began this war to assure as you say his estate I omit the other mischiefs which wars draweth on with it Arch. Infinite Lat. Now you see that hee that hath bin the cause of this destruction hath more despoiled the church then he that should haue bereaued the Pope of his temporall dignitie But let vs see if anie man should haue caught from Iesus Christ his Cloake do you beleeue that he would haue taken Armes to haue defended it Arch. No surely Latt Why then would you haue the Pope to do it seeing you say hee was appointed to that ende that he should imitate Iesus Christ Arch. In this maner the Church should neuer keep any Signorie euerie one would pull a peece from it if they thought the Pope might not defend it Latt Whether it bee necessarie or profitable to the Church for the Popes to haue temporal seignories or not let them look to that but surely mee thinkes they might much better intende matters spirituall if they did not so much entangle themselues with temporall euen in that which you haue said you are much deceaued For if the Pope would bee content to imitate Iesus Christ and liue indeede as his Vickar hee should not onely not lose any part of his lands but rather much more should be giuen vnto him and let vs see how he holds any thing of that hee hath but by that meanes Arch. You say the trueth but now there is scarsely any charitie in the world Latt It is your selues with your euill liues that quench the fire of Charitie and in your selues it lieth to kindle and enflame it If you would Arch. You would haue vs enflame charitie by loosing all wee haue Latt And why not if it haue bene giuen you for Gods sake why should you not bee content for Gods sake to forgoe it It is most certaine that all true Christians should so do we hold possesse our goods temporal with this condicion that we should bee alwaies readie to leaue them whensoeuer we shal see it conuentent for the honor and glorie of Christ Iesus and for the common good of Christendome how much more then ought you of the Clergie to do the same yea and how much more in dutie then ought the Vickar of Iesus Christ to do it Arch. You are so holy as I neede not meddle with you suerly we haue no neede of such at Rome Latt Nether would I desire to liue among such wicked people Arch. You meane as there are now there Latt Neither yet as these that were there for in an infected flocke there is bad choise to be made Arch. What do you then account vs as bad as those Roysters Latt As bad Ney I would you were not much worse Arch. Wherefore Latt Because you are much more pernitious vnto the whole commonweale by your bad example Arch. And I pray you what be they Latt They make not profession to be the ministers of God as you doe neither haue they liuing for such as they haue neither is there any that will seeke or ought to seeke to immitate them as they should you But staie a while I haue not yet doone for hetherto haue I handled this matter calling the Pope Christs vicar now will I handle it making accoumpt or supposing the Pope is also a secular Prince as the Emperour to the end you may the more cleerely see the Error you were in And as concerning the first it is most certaine that the Pope receiued this dignitie by the fauour of the Emperour and hauing so gotten it behold what gratitude immediatlie he comforts himselfe with the King of Fraunce at his entrance into Italie and left the freendship of the Emperour Yea and some auerre that the Pope himselfe was the solisitor and causer of his entrance into Italie and notwithstanding all this the Emperour hauing the victorie against the French King was not onely content not to take from the Pope his territories of Parma and Placentia as both in Iustice and Reason he mought then haue doone but ratified the league that his Embassadour made with him yet the Pope notwithstanding not contented with this began to frame a newe league in Italie against the Emperour after the Frenche King was Prisoner But that secret practise was discouered and so tooke no effect And yet could not all this so alienate the Emperours minde but that hee sought by all honest and reasonable meanes to content the Pope and to procure him to be a meane in that peace which was intreatie betweene him and the King of Fraunce and that he should not hinder it but he was neuer able to attaine it Yet in the meane time was this peace concluded with Fraunce but so soone as the King was set at libertie the Pope began to procure a new league with him against the Emperour hauing receiued no occasion in the world at his hands so to doe and all this euen at that time when the Turkes with a puisant Armie began to enter by the kingdome of Hungary doe you thinke that this was a good parte The enemies were come to our gates and we brew warres within the house He requires the Emperour that he should not prepare any forces to resist the Turke and yet himselfe secretly prepareth to make warre vpon the Emperor Do you thinke that these were works of a Christian Prince Arch. But let vs see on the other side why the Emperour did not iustice to the Duke of Millan for if he had comitted no fault was it not good reason he should restore his state to him againe Latt Yes surely and therefore sir behold the Emperor placed Frauncis Sforsa in the state of Millan whereas he might haue tane it to himselfe seeing he hath much more right therevnto then that Duke and that onely for the peace and ease of Italy and all Christendome he was content to bestowe it on such a man at whose hands he neuer had receiued any seruice And afterward the Emperour vnderstood by his Captaines that the same Duke had conference and had taken parte in that league which the Potentates of Italie had made against him And seeing therein he had committed treason it was good reason that as a rebell disgraded he should be depriued of his state Arch. And how will you depriue a man

ill enformed and in my iudgement it is not reason but passion for that you haue lost that causeth you to vtter the same which you haue spoken I wil not speake passionately as you haue done for so should we spend speech without any Frute But without affectionate speeches I hope trusting in your discretiō good iudgement that before you part from me you shall plainlie vnderstand how much you haue bin deceaued in all that you haue yet saied onely I request you to be attentiue and not to forbeare to replie when you see cause to the end you may not rest in any doubt Arch. Say what you wil but I wil hold you for a greater Orator then Tullius if you be able to defend this cause Latt Nay I am content you shal accompt me the veriest idiot that is in the whole world if I defend it not and prooue my opinion to you with most cleere and euidēt reasons And the first thing I will prooue shall bee how the Emperoure was in no fauit for that which happened at Rome And secondly how all that happened ther came to passe by the manifest iust iudgement of God to correct and chastice that Citie wherein to the great slaunder of Christian Religion raigned al those vices that the wickednes of man could inuent and with that correction to awake the christian people to the end that those euils being remedied we might open our eies and liue like Christians seeing wee glorie so much in that name Arch. A great enterprise you haue taken in hand but how you wil goe through with it I see not Latt Concerning the first I must protest vnto you that no one thing of that which hereafter shal be said is by mee spoken in preiudice of the dignitie or person of the Pope For it is great reason that his dignitie be reuerenced of all men and touching his owne person surely I can speake no ill if I would Besides that it is well knowen that all which hee hath done hath not passed by his owne meanes but by meanes of the lewdnesse of some persons that he keepes about him And to the end that we the better vnderstād one another seeing this difference is betweene the Pope and the Emperour I pray you first declare vnto me what office that of the Popes is and likewise what is the office of the Emperour and to what ende or purpose these Dignities were first established Arch. It seemeth vnto me that the office or dutie of the Emperour is to defende his Subiectes and to maintaine them in great Peace and Iustice fauouring the good and chastising the ill Latt You say well but what is then that of the Pope Arch. That is more hard to declare for if wee behold the time of S. Peter it is one and in these daies another Latt But when I demaunde of you to what ende these dignities were ordeined it is ment that you should declare vnto mee their intention that did ordaine them Arch. Surely it seemes vnto mee it was ordeined to th ende this high Bishop should take on him the Aucthoritie to expounde the holie scriptures and to the end hee should enstruct the people in Christian doctrine not onely with woords but also with example of life and to the ende he should with teares and praiers make supplication continuallie vnto God for his Christian people and to take on him the supreame charge and power to absolue such as had sinned were desirous to conuert themselues to pronounce damnation against such as in their wicked liues remaine obstinate And to the ende that with continuall carefull endeuour hee should procure the maintenance of the Christian people in great peace and concord and to the end wee should haue here on earth such a one as should truelie and liuely represent vnto vs the life and holie custome of Iesus Christ our Redemer because the hartes of men are much more allured with workes then with words This is as much as I can gather out of the holie Scriptures if you haue anie thing else say it Latt This shall suffice at this present and see that you forget it not for we shall haue need thereof hereafter in his due time Arch. No I will not Latt Then if I shew you plainlie that because the Emperour hath done that which your selfe haue auerred to be his dutie And because the Pope hath refused to do that which on his part ought to haue bin done This distruction of Rome hath followed In whom will you then lay the fault Arch. If you could do this which I cannot beleeue then is it plaine to be the Popes fault Latt Then I pray you tel me your selfe seeing you say that the Pope was instituted to the ende hee should imitate Iesus Christ what do you think that Iesus Christ would rather maintaine his people in peace or to stir them vp and tormoile them in warres Arch. This is cleere that the Aucthor of Peace doth not detest any thing more then warre Latt Then let vs see how shall he bee the Imitator of Christ Iesu that stirred vp warres and dissolued peace Arch. Such an one should bee farre off from Imitation of Christ but to what end aske you mee this Latt I demaund it for this purpose that seeing the Emperor defending his Subiects as he is bound the Pope tooke armes against him and dissolued the peace and raised a new warre in Christendome neither the Emperour was in fault for the euils that succeeded seeing he did that which was his office and dutie Neither can the Pope be excused of the fault seeing hee did that he ought not haue doone in breaking the peace and raising a new warre in Christendome Arch. What peace did the Pope dissolue or what warre did he raise vp in Christendome Latt He dissolued the peace that the Emperour had made with the French king and hath stirred vp the warre which wee still haue whereby through the iust iudgement of God the mischeefe came vpon him which he hath receiued Arch. Oh Sir you make your account well but where haue you learned that the pope stirred vp the warre with the Emperour and that hee dissolued the peace made with the Frenche King Latt Because immediatly so soone as the French King was deliuered out of Prison he sent him a writte wherein he did absolue him of the othe which he had made vnto the Emperour to the end he should not be bound to accomplish that which hee had promised whereby more freelye hee might make warre vpon him Arch. But how knowe you this you speake as though you had bin of the Popes secret Councell Latt It is knowne by manie meanes but not to loose time looke vpon the beginning of the league that the Pope made with the Frenche king and you shall plainelie see that the Pope was the aduancer of it and seeing that this is so certaine a truth that euen the Pope himselfe confesseth it dooth it seeme vnto you

the Pope I cannot but maruell that should be a mirrour of al Christian vertues and a patterne wherevpon we should all cast our eyes being bound to maintaine all in peace and concorde yea though it were with the perrill of his owne life will notwithstanding make warre to gaine and maintaine things which Iesus Christ commaunded to be contemned and that there should bee found among Christians any that would giue him ayde in an action so wicked so execrable preiudiciall to the honour of Christ what blindnesse is this wee call our selues Christians and yet liue worse then Turkes yea worse then brute beasts if we thinke that this doctrine of Christ be but a mockerie whie doe wee not forsake it all together for so at least should we not doe so great wrongs where we haue receiued so great good But seeing wee doe knowe it to be most true and that we doe so much glorie in the name of Christians and disdaine those that be not whie doe we not endeuoure to be Christians indeed whie doe we liue in sort as if there were neither Faith nor Loue amongest vs The Philosophers and ancient Sages being gentils dispised and contemned ritches and would you haue the Vickar of Christ Iesu make warres for that which those blind Pagans esteemed not What shal those Nations say that do know no more of Christ Iesus then that which they behold in his Vickar but that those Philosophers who to attaine their true good which they had placed in vertue did despice these worldlie thinges were much better then Iesus Christ when they see his Vickar bruing and stirring vp warres for these thinges which they contemned Behold here the honor done vnto him by them that maintain themselues vppon his bloud Oh bloud of Iesus Christ so euill be thy Vickars imploied which by thee gather these masses of money to murder men to murder Christians to distroy Cities to ransack villages to dishonour Virgins to make such numbers of Widdowes and Orphans and to cause such a multitude of mischiefs as warres drue with it A man might see in Lumbardie yea in all Christendome so great Prosperitie so many and so goodlie citties such statelie buildinges in the Suburbes and Countrie such Gardens such pleasures and so great pastimes The Laborers gathered their graines for their Flockes and manured their landes The Cittizens Gentlemen and Nobilitie euery mā in his degree emploied freelie their goods they emploied quietly their inheritances encreased their rents manie of them distributed largelie among the poore But after this accursed wars began how manie citties haue wee seene destroied how manie houses and places of pleasure dispeopled and razed how manie vineyards and Orchards spoiled and defaced how many of the Nobilitie Citizens and Laborers falne into extream pouertie how manie married women haue lost their husbandes how many Fathers and Mothers their deare children how manie Virgins their virginitie how manie wiues forced in presence of their Husbandes how many Husbandes murdred in presence of their Wiues how many Nunns dishonored and what a slaughter and decay of men in Christendome and that worse is what a number of Soules sent to Hell And doe wee winke at it as a matter of iest And yet this Vicker of Christ not contented with all this euen at this time when we were in peace commeth to stir vs vp a new warre euen at this time I say when we haue the enemies of our Faith at our doore to the ende wee may loose the rest as we lost the kingdome of Hungarie and to the end he might fully accomplish the losse of all the residue that yet remained Yea and yet further his Souldiers not contenting themselues to make warres like others seeke out new kindes of crueltie For neither the Emperour Nero nor the Syracusan Dyonisius nor all the cruel tirants that haue hetherto raigned in the world could inuent such cruelties as this armie of the Popes after it brake the truce made with Don Hugo de Moncada hath put in execution in the territorie of the Collones where two of these Christians haue taken a Virgin of the Nobilitie by the legs and holding her naked her head downwards an other comes with an balberd all aliue as shee was cleeues her into two peeces Oh crueltie oh impietie oh most execrable wickednesse what could that poore wench haue committed or what had those wiues great with child offended that in presence of their husbandes had their bellies ripped open with their cruell swords and the infantes yet warm rosted on spits before the eies of the vnhappie mother Oh woonderfull God that consentest to these thinges Oh eares of Men that can endure to heare such a thing oh supreame Bishop that suffrest these things to be done in thy name What had those innocent creatures merited wee speake ill of Herode that caused the children lately borne to be murdred and thou consentest to haue them murdered before they were borne thou mightest haue suffered them at least to haue receaued Baptisme thou shouldest not haue endeuored to haue destroied both soule and bodie How had those poore women merited to die with such torment to haue their bowels ripped open liuing and to see their children groning vppon spits rosting or those sorrowfull fathers that died with verie griefe of their vnfortunate Children and vnhappie Mothers What Iewe Turke More or Infidil wil now come to the Faith of Iesus Christ seeing wee receaue such woorkes from his Vickars which of them wil euer serue or honor him And those Christians which vnderstand not the christian doctrine what haue they to do but to follow their Pastor And if euery one wil seeke to follow him who wil desire to liue among Christians shal we thinke sir that this is to imitate Iesus Christ shall we thinke that this is to teach the Christian people shal we thinke that this is to interprete the sacred Scriptures shall we thinke that these bee the workes of Iesus Christ shal we thinke that to this ende this dignitie was appointed that by the same he should destroy the Christian people Arch. I cannot denie it to bee an horrible thing but this is a matter so accustomed in Italie to make no accompt of a Pope that maketh not war as they hold it for a very great dishonor for any Pope in his time to lose any little percel of the landes of the Church Latt Not to be tedious I wil omit a number of reasons that I were able to alledge to confute this but let vs come to the extremitie I say that if the Emperour would goe about to take away the Church landes what do you thinke were it not better that the Pope had lost all his temporall dignities then that Christendome and the honor of Iesu Christ should suffer that it hath done Arch. No surely for thus would you goe about to spoile the Church Latt And why spoile the Church what call you the Church Arch. The Pope and Cardinals Latt And all

excommunications by curses by fulminations by agrauations and redagrauations by connonizations such like exactions the Souldiers haue taken as husbandmen and laborers to sowe round about the world Arch. Oh blacke laborrers that serued to destroy Rome in such sort as it will not turne to bee Rome againe these 500. yeares Latt O would to God that were so Arch. What Latt That Rome would not turne againe to those vices it had nor that therein should raine no more so small charitie and loue and feare of God Arch. But what had the sacred pallace merited and those Chambers and painted haules that was the most lamentable sight in the World to see them made stables for horses and all thinges in them vtterly defaced Latt In deed sir you say well and great reason it were that the whole Cittie suffering sacke and spoile that place should be preserued from whence all the ill councell proceeded Arch. But then the Prince of the Apostles Church and all the other Temples Churches and Monasteries of Rome who is able to recount how they were handled and raunsacked so as there remained in them neither Gold nor siluer nor other thing of valiew but all was by those Souldiers robbed and spoiled is it possible that God can like that his owne Churches should be so handled and ransacked and thinges to his honor dedicated so robbed Latt Surely sir this is a thing indeed so soule and wicked as it cannot be but condemned of any Neuerthelesse if yee looke well into it yee shall finde euen in these thinges that haue bin dedicated to the seruice of God so much superstition the people therein so much abused that I meruell not if God haue permitted this and much more to the end ther may be in those matters some moderation The Marchant thinkes after hee hath gotten together an infinite quantitie of money that all the ill hee hath done or shall doo shall be forgiuen him If he build a church or a Monasterie or giue a Lampe or a Challice to a Church and in this also do they deceaue that they seeme to giue that for Gods sake which is rather for the most part giuen for a certaine pride or for a certaine worldly vaine glory as is manifest by the armes that cōmonly euery one putteth on the things they giue and putting their trust in these thinges they thinke that now they neede no longer liue like Christians and albeit this bee an extreame errour yet are they not ashamed to admit it so as thereby they make there profit by it not considering in the meane time the iniurie they do to Christian Religion Arch. And why an iniurie Lattan Do you not thinke it an iniurie yea and a verie great iniurie that we being Christians and instructed from God himselfe should be ignorant of that knowledge which manie Heathens onely by the light of naturall reason had attained of God For they had atteined to this knowledge that it was no true seruice of God to offer him any corruptible thing They had atteined that vnto a bodilesse substance such as God is we ought not to offer anie bodilie thing for a principall offer nor as a thing that should bee verie gratefull vnto him They said that such knew not what thing God was that supposed hee tooke pleasure in the possession of such thinges which many wise and good men thought a commendation in themselues to esteeme litle as Iewels and Ritches And yet wee Christians are so blind as wee thinke our God is greatly serued with these corrupt and corporall matters Arch. By this meanes you would haue men do no seruice to God neither in building of Churches nor in offering Challeces and such other ornaments Latt I say he doth better and more true seruice to God which fitteth his soule with such vertues as God commaundeth to the end he may come and dwell in him then he that buildeth a church yea though it were made of gold and as great as that of Toledo for God to dwell in when in the meane time by vices hee maketh God a stranger to his owne soule albeit his intention therin were the best euen in the world I say that it is a verie great error to thinke that wee please God by offring Gold or Siluer when it is done with an intention to be praised for it or for any other vaine respect And I say that God is better serued if in steed of that wee giue vnto Churches which are but dead Temples wee did bestow the same on the poore to relieue their necessities seeing wee knowe they are the liuing Temples of God Arch. By this reason wee should haue neither Churches nor any other ornaments to serue God Latt What should wee haue no Churches Yes surely I thinke wee should haue manie more Churches for hauing many good Christians moe of these any two or three being ioined together in his name should bee a Church yea and besides that although the lewde would not build Churches or Monasteries thinke you that there would want good Men to doo it But let vs behold this vniuersall World is it any thing else then a beautifull Church wherein God dwelleth What is the Sunne but a Lampe lighted to shine vnto the Ministers of the Churche What is the Moone What bee the Starres but Candles which burne in this Church of God Would you your selfe desire another Church Doth not the Apostle saie the Temple of God is holy which you your selues are would you haue other Candles to lighten this church you haue the spirit you haue vnderstanding you haue reason and do you not thinke that these be good Candels Arch. Yes but yet no man sees them Latt And you haue you seene God Behold brother seeing God is indeed inuisible he wil be principally honored with things inuisible God will not be paid or contented with gold nor with siluer neither standeth in any need of these like things seeing hee is Lord of all he seeketh nothing but harts Will you see this Seeing God is omnipotent If he would could he not in a moment make an hundred thousand temples more sumptuous and more ritche then the temple of Solomon Arch. Yes that is cleere Latt I pray you what seruice should you do him then in giuing that he hath alreadie and not yeelding that vnto him which he requireth Let vs see if God delight in Temples if God delight in gold if God delight in siluer why dooth he not take all since all is his Arch. Marry sir because he would haue vs of our owne good wils to offer it to the ende we might that way haue meane to merrit Latt What merrit is it to giue vnto God that he least esteemeth when ye will not render that he requireth Arch. Now I perceaue you would not haue vs reteine the Churches we haue nor that they should take ornaments Latt I say I would not haue these things doone for vaine glorie neither would I that to honour a