Selected quad for the lemma: christian_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
christian_n	christian_a	church_n	particular_a	4,194	5	7.0271	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A56167	A fvll reply to Certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on Master Prynnes twelve questions about church-government wherein the frivolousnesse, falseness, and grosse mistakes of this anonymous answerer (ashamed of his name) and his weak grounds for independency, and separation, are modestly discovered, reselled : together with certaine briefe animadversions on Mr. Iohn Goodwins Theomachia, in justification of independency examined, and of the ecclesisticall jurisdiction and rights of Parliament, which he fights against / by William Prynne ...	Prynne, William, 1600-1669.	1644 (1644)	Wing P3967; ESTC R3868	34,873	26

A FVLL REPLY To certaine briefe Observations and Anti-Queries ON Master PRYNNES twelve Questions about Church-Government Wherein the Frivolousnesse Falsenesse and grosse Mistakes of this Anonymous Answerer ashamed of his Name and his weak grounds for Independency and Separation are modestly discovered refelled Together with certaine briefe Animadversions on Mr. Iohn Goodwins Theomachia in justification of Independency examined and of the Ecclesiasticall Jurisdiction and Rights of Parliament which he fights against By William Prynne of Lincolnes Inne Esquire Socrates Scholasticus Eccles. Hist. l. 5. c. 20. Ecclesia cum semel esset divisa non una divisione acquievit sed homines ab se mutuò aversi alter ab altero denuò scesserunt atque adeò EXIGVAM LEVICVLAMQVE OCCASIONEM nacti mutuae communionis consociationisque vincula disruperunt Have salt in your selves and have peace one with another Mark 2. 50. To this end was I born and for this cause come I into the world that I should beare witnesse unto the truth Ioh. 18 37. Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth Gal. 4. 16. Imprimatur October 14. 1644 Iohn White The second Edition some what inlarged with materiall Additions London Printed by F. L. for Michael Sparke Senior and are to be sold at the Blew-Bible in Green-Arbour 1644. OF all the vanities and vexations of spirit enumerated by the royall Preacher this is one of the principall a That for all travell and every right works a man is envied yea many times hated oppugned by his neighbour This hath been alwayes my condition heretofore and now my best actions and publike services for the common good have been misconstrued traduced nay censured in an high degree as ●…vill by many though blessed be God approved yea gratefully accepted by the best-affected to the Church and State The importunity of some Reverend friends lamenting the deplorable distractions of our Church which threaten disunion and so ruine to us in these unhappy times of intestine warres prevailed so farre as to induce me to compile and publish Twelve considerable serious questions touching Church-government out of a córdial desire as much as in me lay to close up not widen our divisions Which though they have given ample satisfaction to many truely religious of all ranks and qualities who have returned me speciall thanks yet they have found very harsh entertainment from others who of Friends b are become my professed Antagonists if not enemies in print because I have told them the truth to whom I should have returned no Reply but silence there being nought in these Observations worthy answer but only to rectisie some mistakes therin and shew the opposite party those common errours wherby they deceive themselves and others The first thing this namelesse Respondent quarrels with is c For my writing by way of Quere To which I answer that I had both Presidents and Reasons for it Presidents from our Saviour himselfe who both instructed refuted convinced his opposites and auditors by demanding * Questions only Presidents from Philosophers Fathers School-men and all sorts of Writers ancient modern over-tedious to recite Reasons 1. I conceived the Questions touching church-government were not rightly stated by most and that the right stating of them by way of Question would be the best and speediest meanes to decide them 2. The Independent party had neither then nor since to my knowledg dogmatically resolved or discovered in print what that church-government is they so eagerly contend for and pretend to be so plainly set downe in the Word of God being not y●…t all agreed what they hold or should desire except it be this to be left at free libertie to doe what they please and therefore I conjectured such Queries to be the only means to discover and refute their concealed Platform 3. The controversies concerning church-government were then and now in agitation in the Synod and high Court of Parliament the properest Iudges of them therefore I thought it better became me in point of modesty and good manners to expresse my opinion of them by way of Question then Decision Finally I found all Independents guilty of Petitio principii in their Writings Sermons Discourses peremptorily concluding their form of church-government to d be the onely Government instituted by Christ the onely way of God which hath more of God and Christ in it then any other the Kingdom Scepter and Throne of Christ himself and no other way beside it e That by the beauty and perfect consonancy of this Government with the Word of God it may very reasonably yea and upon higher terms then of reason be thought that in time it cannot but overthrow all 〈◊〉 of Ecclesiasticall government and I fear civill too by the self-same reason stand up it self in their stead which they closeup with a Faxit Deus festinet●… and that writi●…g or disputing against this Government or opposing it in any kind yea in thought is no lesse then f A FIGHTING AGAINST GOD which will bring certain ruine on our Realme in generall and all private open opposers of it yet not one of them nor this Respondent hath hitherto fully discovered to us what this WAY or Government is nor produced any one Scripture or Reason to warrant these superlative Encomiums of it but we must take all they say as Gospel upon their own bare words without examination or dispute And therefore I proposed these with 12 other subsequent Questions to them to induce them to make good these transcendent that I say not arrogant Positions touching their Way since I seriously professe before God Angels and men that I could never yet discover the least footsteps of it in Scripture or Antiquity nor descry this their Patern in the Mount which no age till ours had ever the happiness to behold if it be worth the viewing when unvailed by them to us Having thus given this Respondent the true grounds of my writing by way of Question I shall briefly answer all his materiall Observations and Anti-queries upon my twelve Questions pretermitting his Impertinencies 1. To the first Question the Respondent gives no Answer at all to the things demanded but only misrecites the Question without my limitations and then seemes to refute what himselfe propounds not I He should have demonstrated by direct Scriptures That Christ hath prescribed one set immutable forme of Government to all Christian Nations Churches in the World from which none must vary in the least degree without sinne schisme or being no true Churches of Christ with whom good Christians may with safe conscience communicat and that nothing herein is or can be left free to humane prudence though themselves most stifly plead that Christ hath prescribed no * set form of praying or preaching to Ministers people but left all men free to use their liberty and severall gifts in both on which grounds they condemne all set forms of publike if not

private prayers and some of them the use of the Lords owne prayer together with there ading of set Homilies upon which very grounds they must also deny all set formes of church-government as well as of Prayer and Preaching And then have positively delineated exactly proved the modell of this pretended Government Discipline in every particle thereof by Gospel-Texts so far as to satisfie mens erronious judgments consciences herein that so they might either submit thereto without dispute or propound their objections against the same But in this maine point whereon the hinge of the controversie turnes the Respondent is wholly silent and I shall expect his answer ad Graecas Calendas Only lest he might seem to say nothing he endevours to prove that there is a set forme of Church-government prescribed by Christ in the Gospel not by direct Texts but from pretended absurdities of his owne fancying for which he can produce no Text nor Reason wherein he hath prevaricated and shewes himselfe absurd First writes he if this were granted that there is no such set form of Church-government prescribed to all the Gospell would be * straiter then the Law Christ more unfaithfull then Moses If we deny these absurd consequences you shall have these sound proofes of both subjoined God set a patterne to Moses of a carnal Temple you mistake good Sir it was a Tabernacle and that not carnall which he charged him not to vary from in a tittle well I grant it because you produce * two full Scriptures for it Ergo he hath prescribed a set pattern of Church-government and Discipline to all Christian Nations Churches in the new Testament from which they must not vary in one tittle If he or any other can shew me such a pattern as he contends for so clearly delineated to us in the new Testament as that pattern of the Tabernacle God shewed Moses was in the old and then produce as direct precepts enjoyning all Christians Republikes Churches not to vary from it in one tittle as Moses had not to vary from his I shall beleeve his sequell till then I shall deeme it a true Independent argument and as grosse a Non-sequitur as this which necessarily followes upon the concession of it God shewed and prescribed to Moses the expresse pattern or fashion of Aarons and his Sons garments ornaments under the Law Exod. 28. Ergo he hath likewise shewed and prescribed the expresse pattern fashion and colour of all Bishops Presbyters Ministers garments ornaments under the Gospel most likely in the Roman Ceremoniall and Pontificall If the one consequence be ridiculous the other must needs be so But to quell this your principall Argument First the patterne in the mount was meant onely of the materials forme vessels and utensils of the Tabernacle not of the Government and Discipline of the Iewish church therfore very impe●…tinent to prove a setled Church-government Discipline under the Gospel Secondly it was shewed only to Moses the temporall Magistrate and chief Ruler of the Israelites not to Aaron or any private Independent Priest or Synagogue of the Iewes yea Moses not they was to make or s●…e all things † made according to the pattern in the mount Ergo if there be any consequence from this patterne not the Independent Minister or congregation but Kings chief temporall Magistrates and Parliaments the supreme civill Powers Councels ●…e likewise under the Gospell to prescribe and set up such a church-government as is agreeable to Gods Word as Moses Joshua David Solomon Hezekiah Joshiah Nehemiah and other godly Princes Governours with their Parliaments or generall Assemblies did under the Law And then what becomes of your Independent Ministers Congregations claimes to this Soveraigne temporall jurisdiction a part of Christs Kingly office delegated onely to Kings and highest temporall powers which was never conferred on them In fine if there be any such expresse unalterable divine patterne of church-government under the Gospel I pray informe me why it was not as punctually as particularly described in the new Testament as the forme of the Tabernacle of its materialls with all the services ornaments appurtenances of it and of the Temple were under the Law Nay why was the Tabernacle altered into a * Temple different from it and why did the second * Temple vary from the first and that in the self same Church and Nation If these were patterns of the church-government under the Gospel and yet varied altered successively in this manner then by consequence the Government Discipline under the Gospel is variable alterable too and so not fixed nor immutable His second Argument That Christ should neither be faithfull as a husband head nor King of his Church if he should give others power to order it as they pleased to their owne civill Government not setting downe his owne Lawes for them to walke by is both a fallacy absurdity There is no man doubts but that Christ in the Scriptures which some of you refuse to heare read in our Churches though publike reading of them be Gods owne ordinance hath prescribed to us all necessary Rules Lawes both for our faith lives either in a general or special manner which a●…l must pursue But that he hath punctually or particularly set down any exact unalterable form of church-government for all Christian Nations Churches to follow under pain of being unfaithfull in all the former respects and that the Independens Modell alone is that very patterne the onely point in question remains on your part to make good A man may be a faithfull husband King Master Father though he prescribe not distinct particular Lawes to regulate each particular action of his Wife Subjects Servants Children * Let all things be done decently and in order a generall rule for church-government is sufficient to excuse Christ from these your presumptuous reproaches and regulate all particulars though left indefinite as well as this generall Rule for our Christian conversation Phil. 1. 27. Let your conversation be as becommeth the Gospel of Christ and this other for our speech Eph. 4. 29. Let no corrupt communication come out of your mo●… but that which is good to the use of edifying You may as well charge Christ with unfaithfulnesse for not prescribing to us a generall Liturgy or every particular action we should doe every word we should speak or Ministers preach upon any occasion as for not prescribing a particular forme of church-government His third Argument that Rev. 11. 1 2. we read of a † measuring of the Temple and Rev. 21. 1 2. of the new Jerusalem comming downe from God out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband Ergo there is a setled divine church-government universally prescribed to all Christians in the new Testament is no better a proofe of this assertion then the Angel of the Church of Ephesus is of our Prelats Lordly hierarchy jure divino He might as well yea more properly have

you meane it of any other light that is truely such we blesse God for it and desire to walke brotherly and unanimously in it In the seventh he grants that the Law of Nature which instructs men to unite themselves into one Nationall State or civill Government doth likewise teach them to joine themselves into subject themselves unto one Nationall Church and to Nationall Synods Parliaments in point of church-government in which every particular man hath his Vote though not in proper person which hee objects is necessarie but I deny since all cannot possibly assemble yet in their deputies Knights Burgesses or selected Commissioners and though it bee t●ue that Christ hath not given Magistrates such absolute authority over mens consciences as bodies as you object yet hee hath enjoyned us to bee * subject to the higher powers and to every lawfull ordinance of man not repugnant to his Word EVEN FOR CONSCIENCE SAKE and THE LORDS SAKE too For my passage That there is no example of gathering independent Congregations not of Infidels but of men already converted to and setled in the Christian Faith unlesse derived from the private conventicles of Arrians Novatians Donatists and other Hereticks who yet w●re not independent among themselves it is not a bitter speech as you phrase it but a true one and onely bitter to you because undeniable For as it was the * common practice of those seducing Hereticks Sectaries to gather private Conventicles of their own and labour to draw other orthodox Christians from their proper Ministers to incorporate themselves into their private separated congregations as Historians informe us So no such practice of alluring and stealing away other Pastors sheep from their proper Shepheard who first coverted them to and edified them in the faith and grace of Christ can be produced but only in these Hereticks and Sectaries whose practice your Independents imitate As for those private conventicles as he phraseth them for which he saith I may blesse God that I was remembred in them with tears when others durst not name me as I do really blesse God for them and those who remembred me effectually in them so I dare not stile them Conventicles in an ill sense since not † such by Law being only lawfull Assemblies of private Christians to seek unto God by prayer fasting upon extraordinary occasions which all good Christians cannot but approve But all these meetings were farre from being then stiled reputed Independent Churches or having any affinity with them so as they make nothing for his cause 8. To the eighth Quere he gives a negative Answer First in generall next in particular to some instances First he grants that there was a Nationall Church yea Nationall assemblies Parliaments determining church-affaires of the Jewes but these saith he cannot be a pattern for us now because the covenant of the Gospell is not made with any one particular Nation as with the Jewes but to all Nations that embrace the Gospel and beleeve in Christ you have no promise nor prophesie of any Nation to be holy to God but the Jewes Nation when they shall bee called againe To which I reply first That Independents have not the least precept or example for any solemne Covenant made betwixt God and men to walke in the wayes of God c. but onely * in the old Testament and Church of the Israelites and that no private congregationall but publ●…ke Nationall covenant prescribed by the supreme temporall Magistrate and Assembly not by the Priests or private Synagogues yea the principall precepts presidents for publike or private fasts sanctifying the Sabbath c. you likewise derive from the old Testament and that Church why then should not their Nationall Church be a pattern for us and you to imitate as well as their Nationall covenant fasting sabbath-keeping the Church of God being all one as it is a Church both under the old Teastament and new and the pattern of it under the Law a better pesident for the Church under the Gospel of which it was a type and fore-runner then the pattern of the Tabernacle shewed in the Mount so frequent in your Lips and Books a president for your Independent Modell to which it hath no analogy 2. This reason is most absurd and false the Covenant of the Gospel extending not onely to particular persons but to * all Nations and people whatsoever who are both prophesied and promised to become Christs own inheritance possession people spouse church and to be an HOLY NATION A PECVLIAR PEOPLE c. to the Lord in infinite Texts both of the old and new Testament which I wonder the Respondent should either not see or forget being ten thousand fold more cleare and visible then his Independent platforme which few or none can yet espy in Scripture History or Politiques 2. He addes that I cannot sh●…w any Nation every member whereof is qualified sufficiently to make up a church which is Christs body unlesse I will take in Drunkards Whore-masters c. to be members of a church whereas the Word saith they must be visible Saints and this cannot be avoided in a Nationall church I answer that I dare not be wiser then my Master Christ who informes me that there will and must be alwayes in the visible church on earth be it Nationall parochiall presbyteriall or congregationall * goats among the sheep chaffe among the wheat which must grow together ●…ill the harvest at the end of the world to wit the day of judgment good fish mixed with the bad in the churches Net 2. I finde a a Judas a Devill among the Apostles many b grosse sinners idolaters and corruptions in the Jewish church many abuses Epicures Drunkards Wh●…re-masters L bertines unclean●… persons and false Teachers in the churches of Galatla Ephesus Colosse Pergamus Smyrna Thyatira and Laodicea yet the Scripture expresly stiles them c the body and churches of Christ and reputes such members though corrupt ones of those Churches who doe not actually cease to be members when excommunicated or suspended for a season after they are baptized and professe the Christian faith nor did any separate from these churches though they had some corruptions and evill members For you therefore to separate from and unchurch such Nationall or Parochial churches which have some such members in them is to unchurch all churches both in the old the new Testament and world it self yea your own churches too 3. The Scripture is expresse d that many are called but few chosen and saved that all must be compelled to come into the church though they want the wedding-garment There never was nor shall be here on earth any one visible church compacted wholly of reall elected Saints without any mixture of Reprobates such a church we shall meet with onely in heaven I am sure you can gather none such on earth 4. Are there no corrupt or drunken members in your independent churches

Discipline more compleat and perfect then at their beginning to pre●… No man doubts that though a * new-born infant and Christian have all the parts and members of a man and Saint yet they have not so much perfection understanding knowledg judgment strength of grace or spirituall wisdome as grown men and Christians An aged experienced growne Minister Christian is more compleat and perfect then a new converted † Novice or Babe in grace Ergo a growne and Nationall Church then one but in the Embryo Your Independent Churches in their primitive infancy when they had but two or three members onely in them and wanted both Elders Deacons and other necessary church-officers as Mr Sympsons church first did I am certain in your own opinion were not so complete and mature as you intended to make them afterwards by degrees a Village is not so complete a Republike or Corporation as a City nor a City as a † Kingdom not a Family as a County not a Consistory as a Synod nor a cou●…t of Aldermen as a common-cou●…cell not that as a Parliament Therefore an Independent singular congregation not so complete as a Nationall church being oft enforced to pray in the aid of other churches for advice assistance c. as your selves confesse which an whole Nationall Church need not to doe In 〈◊〉 himselfe confesseth that the Apostles made new rules for government and discipline as occasion served and that as God fitted occasions so he made knowne new rules successively by degrees not at once and added new Officers as Evangelicall B●…shops Elders Deacons Widowes Evangelists Doctors Pastors Teachers which some distinguish from Presbyters and d●…fine to be severall offices Therefore the infant Church in the Apostles dayes was not so compleat perfect in all parts as the multiplied and growne churches afterwards 10. My tenth Q●…re he wil●…ully misrecites as he doth the rest else he had not the least shadow of exception against it a●… propounded it and then 〈◊〉 an answer by way of dilemma to it To which I reply That if the Parliament and Synod shall by publike consent establish a Presbyteriall church-government as most consonant to Gods Word the Lawes and Reiglement of this Kingdome Independents and all others are bound in conscience to submit unto it under paine of obstinacy singularity c. in case they cannot really prove it diametrally contrary to the Scriptures and simply unlawfull in point of conscience not by fancies or remote inconsequences but by direct Texts and precepts which they can never doe and that because it is thus commanded established by the higher powers to which in all lawfull or indifferent things wee are bound to render all ●…eatfull obedience without resistance even for conscience sake by expresse Gospel Texts Rom. 13. 1 to 7. Tit. 3. 1. 1 Pet. 2 14 15. which I wish you would p●…actise better and make make more conscience of then now you doe As for his crosse Interrogatories I answer 1. That if the Popes Councels command lawfull things to those who a●…e subject to their power they are as well to be obeyed as the commands of * heathen Emperours Magistrates Parents Husbands by Christian Subjects Wives Servants living under them are 2. That there is a great difference between matters of opinion onely and of practise That his instanced points Whether Lo●… Episcopacy be jure divino or their making out Processe under their owne Names and Seales be agreeable to the Law of the Land are matters onely of opinion simply in themselves and if a Synod and Parliament should have determined the first and the Iudges resolved the last affirmatively their resolutions could not binde my judgement absolutely so farre as to subscribe their opinions as undoubted truths unlesse they could satisfie my arguments and authorities to the contrary but yet they should ought to bind me for the present so far as to submit to their authority Processe in their own names in things within their legall cognisance So if the Parliament and Assembly shall establish any Church-government as most agreeable to the Scriptures and our Lawes though this binds not all Independents to be simply of their opinion unlesse the reasons and arguments produced for it be sufficient to convince their judgments yet it binds them in point of practise and obedience outwardly to submit thereto and not to separate from it under pain of arrogancy faction schisme unlesse they can clearly manifest it to be absolutely unlawfull and repugnant to the Scripture As for my own objected challenge to the Bishops Iudges about the jus divinum of Lordly Prelacy and Bishops Processein their own names when I made it I was certain I had both † Scripture Fathers Councels Acts of Parliament the suffrages of all forraigne Reformed Churches Writers and our owne learnedest Bishops Authors in all times against the first and direct Acts Resolutions of Parliament Patents unanswerable Law-authorities and Reasons against the latter Therefore a few Lordly Prelates opinions in their owne case or the subitane forced extra judiciall resolution of the Iudges not then published could no more conclude my judgment nor make me guilty of arrogancy obstinacy or schism then than their forced judgments for the lawfulnesse of Loanes and Ship-money against expresse Acts and judgments of Parliament oblige me or others then or now not to deeme that taxe illegall and when you can produce as many good authorities Reasons from Scripture Antiquity Acts of Parliament Writers of all sorts against the lawfulnesse of Presbytery as I have done against Lordly Episcopacy by divine right Bishops making out Processe under their own Names Seals and † Ship-mony neither of which were ever setled by any former Parliament and have all bin expresly voted against in this I shall then excuse you from arrogancy and schisme but till this be done as I presume it will never be the guilt of both these wil stick fast upon you if you readily conforme not in outward practice to that Government the Parliament shall establish If they should settle Independency I am certaine you would then write and preach for universall obedience to it which you now publikely call for so eagerly without authority or proof of its Divinity because thus setled without dispute therefore by like reason you ought to submit to a Presbytery or such other Government as shall be resolved on by those intrusted with this care notwithstanding any thing you have said or this New Independent sencelesse argument of * Mr I. G. which some of your partie much rely on The Saints shall judg the world at the day of Judgment 1 Cor. 6. 2. Ergo the Parliament chosen by the rifraffe of the World and the Synod may not make any Lawes in matters of Discipline Worship or Government to regulate or oblige Saints now They might better have concluded Ergo the Parliament or any secular Magistrate cannot judge them now for any secular matter since the Apostle