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christian_n call_v church_n society_n 1,435 5 9.0715 5 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A93091 A treatise of liturgies, power of the keyes, and of matter of the visible church. In answer to the reverend servant of Christ, Mr. John Ball. By Thomas Shephard, sometimes fellow of Emanuel-Colledge in Cambridge, and late pastour of Cambridge in New-England. Shepard, Thomas, 1605-1649. 1652 (1652) Wing S3148; Thomason E681_17; ESTC R206794 175,099 213

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and_o pollute_v it_o the_o text_n in_o malach._n 1._o be_v misapply_v and_o we_o desire_v such_o as_o allege_v this_o passage_n against_o simple_a presence_n at_o the_o prayer_n of_o the_o liturgy_n advise_o to_o consider_v whether_o god_n allow_v they_o to_o make_v such_o application_n of_o his_o truth_n which_o we_o much_o doubt_v of_o to_o say_v no_o more_o answ_n that_o people_n join_v in_o the_o whole_a liturgy_n voluntary_o offer_v up_o the_o same_o we_o think_v have_v be_v no_o question_n if_o any_o join_v by_o fear_n and_o compulsion_n though_o the_o will_n in_o this_o case_n be_v not_o force_v for_o mixta_fw-la actio_fw-la be_v voluntaria_fw-la we_o think_v that_o will_v not_o ease_v but_o aggravate_v the_o evil_a argue_v a_o reluctancy_n or_o doubtfulness_n at_o least_o in_o his_o conscience_n and_o so_o what_o he_o do_v be_v not_o of_o faith_n and_o therefore_o sin_n rom._n 14._o 2ly_n what_o you_o say_v of_o the_o faithful_a here_o may_v be_v say_v for_o the_o faithful_a 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not_o the_o english_a church_n out_o of_o the_o number_n and_o herein_o we_o deal_v no_o otherwise_o with_o they_o then_o with_o the_o member_n of_o our_o own_o church_n reply_n all_o possible_a care_n to_o keep_v the_o ordinance_n of_o god_n from_o contempt_n we_o allow_v and_o commend_v so_o you_o deny_v not_o church_n privilege_n to_o who_o they_o be_v due_a nor_o the_o name_n of_o church_n to_o such_o as_o god_n have_v bless_v with_o mean_n of_o grace_n and_o have_v receive_v the_o table_n and_o seal_n and_o enter_v covenant_n with_o god_n your_o liberty_n to_o receive_v such_o satisfaction_n as_o be_v meet_v be_v not_o question_v nor_o whether_o you_o be_v to_o keep_v the_o bond_n of_o the_o spirit_n inviolable_a according_a to_o order_n but_o whether_o this_o be_v according_a too_o order_n to_o exclude_v from_o the_o sacrament_n true_a visible_a christian_n or_o know_v recommend_v christian_n former_o member_n of_o visible_a church_n among_o we_o and_o their_o child_n and_o to_o put_v such_o difference_n between_o they_o and_o such_o as_o be_v in_o your_o church_n order_n answ_n 1_o if_o the_o learned_a author_n will_v hold_v to_o what_o here_o be_v grant_v we_o hope_v this_o controversy_n will_v soon_o be_v at_o a_o issue_n but_o it_o will_v appear_v after_o this_o order_n allow_v bind_v only_o in_o case_n of_o the_o minister_n to_o dispense_v sacrament_n but_o christian_n be_v leave_v at_o a_o loose_a end_n in_o respect_n of_o combine_v themselves_o unto_o particular_a church_n according_a to_o the_o order_n of_o christ_n which_o be_v the_o thing_n we_o plead_v for_o 2_o we_o have_v not_o deny_v the_o name_n of_o church_n to_o such_o as_o be_v say_v to_o have_v plentiful_o the_o mean_n of_o grace_n table_n seales_n and_o covenant_n 3_o concern_v the_o state_v of_o the_o question_n too_o much_o liberty_n be_v take_v as_o in_o other_o case_n for_o neither_o in_o the_o position_n or_o in_o our_o answer_n do_v we_o limit_v the_o question_n to_o member_n in_o 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question_n in_o its_o right_a term_n viz._n whether_o the_o child_n of_o godly_a parent_n or_o themselves_o though_o of_o approve_a piety_n be_v to_o be_v admit_v to_o the_o seal_n not_o be_v member_n of_o some_o particular_a congregation_n or_o until_o they_o be_v such_o chap._n iu._n reply_n to_o the_o first_o consideration_n if_o by_o the_o church_n be_v understand_v the_o society_n of_o man_n profess_v the_o entire_a faith_n the_o seal_n be_v give_v to_o it_o as_o peculiar_a privilege_n but_o if_o you_o understand_v a_o congregationall_a assembly_n the_o seal_n be_v never_o appropriate_v to_o it_o answ_n 1_o our_o meaning_n be_v plain_a in_o the_o second_o sense_n as_o may_v appear_v by_o the_o reason_n allege_v against_o any_o such_o universal_a church_n as_o institute_v and_o political_a wherein_o the_o seal_n be_v dispense_v which_o reason_n you_o answer_v not_o but_o grant_v there_o be_v no_o such_o catholic_n church_n in_o our_o sense_n pag._n 21._o and_o if_o no_o such_o 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church_n in_o which_o and_o unto_o which_o by_o the_o officer_n thereof_o all_o these_o outward_a visible_a privilege_n and_o mean_n of_o grace_n be_v to_o be_v dispense_v and_o immediate_o enjoy_v of_o the_o faithful_a or_o whether_o not_o the_o remote_a right_n but_o the_o immediate_a fruition_n and_o administration_n of_o all_o these_o ordinance_n by_o the_o institution_n of_o christ_n be_v give_v to_o particular_a visible_a church_n and_o sure_o to_o who_o one_o of_o these_o be_v give_v all_o be_v give_v for_o there_o be_v the_o same_o nature_n reason_n and_o use_v of_o all_o ministry_n of_o the_o word_n seal_n discipline_n all_o be_v outward_a ordinance_n privilege_n mean_n of_o grace_n belong_v to_o the_o visible_a church_n where_o christ_n have_v give_v one_o he_o have_v give_v all_o but_o we_o must_v confess_v however_o you_o call_v this_o a_o new_a church_n way_n it_o be_v new_a to_o we_o to_o read_v so_o much_o of_o late_a of_o such_o a_o catholic_n church_n to_o which_o administration_n of_o seal_n censure_n etc._n etc._n belong_v we_o be_v yet_o of_o the_o opinion_n of_o baynes_n parker_n and_o cartwright_n etc._n etc._n that_o have_v against_o papist_n and_o prelate_n maintain_v that_o in_o the_o new_a testament_n there_o be_v no_o institute_v catholic_n national_n or_o provincial_n church_n but_o only_o the_o church_n of_o a_o particular_a congregation_n both_o for_o the_o reason_n allege_v in_o our_o answer_n as_o also_o for_o the_o impossibility_n thereof_o in_o the_o day_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n when_o the_o lord_n jesus_n send_v his_o apostle_n into_o all_o the_o world_n therefore_o impossible_a both_o in_o regard_n of_o distance_n of_o place_n and_o variety_n of_o language_n almost_o ever_o to_o meet_v in_o one_o so_o much_o as_o by_o representation_n and_o that_o not_o only_o by_o accident_n as_o may_v befall_v a_o particular_a church_n by_o sickness_n persecution_n etc._n etc._n
covenant_n with_o god_n be_v the_o true_a church_n of_o god_n for_o what_o be_v it_o to_o be_v the_o flock_n people_n or_o sheep_n of_o god_n but_o to_o be_v the_o church_n of_o god_n and_o where_o there_o be_v a_o covenant_n there_o be_v the_o people_n of_o god_n etc._n etc._n answ_n this_o assertion_n seem_v to_o we_o very_o strange_a to_o fall_v from_o that_o reverend_a and_o learned_a author_n be_v a_o foundation_n of_o many_o inconvenience_n and_o absurdity_n and_o tend_v to_o overthrow_v the_o order_n of_o christ_n in_o his_o visible_a church_n for_o first_o if_o this_o be_v so_o that_o every_o society_n in_o covenant_n with_o god_n be_v the_o church_n of_o god_n than_o man_n may_v set_v up_o as_o many_o form_n of_o visible_a church_n as_o they_o please_v if_o the_o people_n be_v in_o covenant_n with_o god_n visible_o at_o least_o the_o archdeacon_n with_o his_o commissary_n priest_n churchwarden_n etc._n etc._n be_v in_o covenant_n with_o god_n be_v a_o true_a church_n so_o the_o diocesan_n bishop_n in_o his_o cathedral_n with_o his_o clergy_n or_o any_o such_o assembly_n be_v the_o church_n of_o god_n or_o what_o other_o form-soev_a man_n will_v devise_v may_v go_v for_o the_o church_n of_o god_n and_o to_o they_o belong_v the_o seal_n and_o you_o may_v as_o well_o say_v discipline_n and_o all_o ordinance_n of_o god_n if_o they_o be_v the_o true_a church_n second_o upon_o this_o ground_n every_o company_n of_o godly_a christian_o in_o covenant_n with_o god_n meet_v in_o fast_v prayer_n etc._n etc._n be_v the_o true_a church_n of_o god_n and_o to_o they_o as_o such_o the_o seal_n belong_v and_o send_v for_o a_o true_a minister_n of_o the_o catholic_n church_n they_o may_v have_v baptism_n and_o the_o lords-supper_n administer_v and_o by_o the_o same_o reason_n discipline_n also_o yea_o if_o but_o two_o or_o three_o as_o you_o say_v be_v in_o covenant_n with_o god_n meet_v together_o in_o their_o travail_n at_o a_o inn_n etc._n etc._n be_v the_o church_n of_o god_n especial_o every_o christian_a family_n be_v the_o church_n for_o they_o profess_v the_o entire_a faith_n join_v daily_o in_o prayer_n and_o thanksgiving_n receive_v the_o truth_n of_o god_n to_o dwell_v among_o they_o be_v in_o some_o measure_n obedient_a unto_o the_o command_v of_o god_n and_o in_o covenant_n with_o god_n and_o therefore_o be_v the_o church_n of_o god_n why_o not_o call_v for_o a_o minister_n and_o have_v seal_n ordinary_o dispense_v to_o they_o three_o upon_o this_o ground_n a_o company_n of_o christian_a woman_n in_o covenant_n with_o god_n be_v a_o church_n to_o who_o the_o seal_n belong_v and_o who_o see_v not_o how_o all_o orderly_a dispensation_n of_o god_n ordinance_n and_o the_o whole_a order_n of_o visible_a church_n in_o the_o gospel_n will_v be_v overturn_v by_o this_o assertion_n we_o very_o believe_v this_o author_n be_v far_o from_o admit_v these_o thing_n but_o the_o position_n itself_o will_v unavoidable_o enforce_v the_o same_o neither_o can_v we_o impute_v this_o assertion_n to_o any_o inconsiderateness_n through_o heat_n of_o disputation_n for_o if_o any_o shall_v maintain_v the_o personal_a covenant_n of_o people_n with_o god_n to_o be_v sufficient_a to_o constitute_v visible_a church_n and_o not_o admit_v a_o necessity_n of_o a_o more_o public_a or_o general_a covenant_n explicit_a or_o implicit_a whereby_o a_o company_n of_o christian_n be_v make_v one_o people_n join_v in_o one_o congregation_n to_o worship_n god_n in_o his_o holy_a ordinance_n and_o walk_v together_o in_o his_o way_n they_o must_v of_o necessity_n acknowledge_v every_o society_n in_o covenant_n with_o god_n to_o be_v a_o church_n as_o here_o be_v say_v and_o therefore_o admit_v all_o form_n of_o church_n and_o all_o family_n etc._n etc._n to_o be_v church_n and_o so_o bring_v in_o the_o confusion_n object_v which_o we_o desire_v may_v well_o be_v consider_v all_o your_o argument_n stand_v upon_o that_o ground_n of_o personal_a covenant_n with_o 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participation_n of_o the_o sacrament_n be_v a_o visible_a member_n of_o the_o true_a church_n if_o he_o have_v neither_o renounce_v the_o society_n nor_o deserve_v just_o to_o be_v cast_v out_o by_o excommunication_n or_o church_n censure_n etc._n etc._n and_o if_o know_v and_o approve_a christian_n member_n of_o our_o church_n come_v to_o new-england_n shall_v desire_v to_o have_v their_o child_n baptize_v or_o themselves_o admit_v to_o the_o lords-supper_n before_o they_o be_v set_v member_n among_o you_o we_o desire_v to_o know_v upon_o what_o ground_n from_o god_n you_o can_v deny_v they_o if_o you_o acknowledge_v our_o church_n ministry_n and_o sacrament_n to_o be_v true_a as_o you_o profess_v and_o the_o member_n of_o the_o church_n be_v know_v and_o approve_v orderly_o recommend_v unto_o you_o answ_n we_o grant_v all_o this_o here_o express_v for_o the_o substance_n however_o some_o reason_n speak_v unto_o before_o intermix_v we_o pass_v over_o and_o to_o your_o question_n we_o frame_v a_o ready_a answer_n from_o your_o own_o word_n for_o first_o you_o grant_v that_o if_o such_o member_n have_v renounce_v that_o society_n wherein_o they_o do_v partake_v of_o the_o seal_n they_o be_v not_o to_o be_v repute_v member_n of_o it_o and_o this_o be_v general_o the_o case_n of_o all_o approve_a christian_n among_o we_o who_o though_o they_o do_v not_o so_o renounce_v the_o church_n that_o bear_v they_o and_o give_v they_o suck_v as_o no_o true_a church_n yet_o see_v they_o be_v grow_v so_o corrupt_a many_o way_n as_o they_o can_v neither_o enjoy_v some_o needful_a ordinance_n nor_o partake_v in_o those_o they_o have_v without_o sin_n they_o have_v therefore_o renounce_v and_o forsake_v all_o further_a communion_n with_o they_o and_o membership_n in_o they_o and_o so_o by_o your_o own_o grant_n neither_o themselves_o nor_o the_o church_n here_o can_v take_v they_o as_o member_n of_o your_o church_n to_o receive_v they_o under_o that_o respect_n second_o if_o any_o yet_o have_v not_o so_o far_o renounce_v those_o church_n they_o belong_v unto_o yet_o they_o be_v not_o orderly_o recommend_v unto_o we_o which_o also_o you_o grant_v aught_o to_o be_v and_o indeed_o otherwise_o we_o may_v oft_o receive_v person_n just_o excommunicate_a or_o such_o as_o be_v no_o member_n of_o church_n any_o where_o or_o otherwise_o under_o great_a offence_n as_o frequent_a example_n among_o ourselves_o do_v show_v though_o the_o church_n may_v think_v well_o of_o such_o as_o offer_v themselves_o what_o else_o follow_v in_o this_o paragraph_n be_v the_o same_o in_o substance_n and_o much_o of_o it_o in_o word_n also_o that_o we_o have_v answer_v before_o and_o therefore_o we_o pass_v it_o over_o and_o that_o of_o the_o jewish_a church_n we_o shall_v speak_v to_o after_o as_o for_o that_o you_o desire_v leave_v to_o set_v down_o and_o we_o to_o examine_v what_o may_v be_v object_v against_o that_o we_o affirm_v that_o the_o distinct_a church_n name_v in_o the_o new_a testament_n be_v congregationall_a society_n we_o shall_v consider_v as_o follow_v reply_v the_o number_n of_o believer_n be_v so_o great_a in_o some_o city_n that_o they_o can_v not_o convenient_o meet_v in_o one_o place_n as_o one_o assembly_n to_o worship_n god_n according_a to_o his_o will_n and_o for_o their_o edify_n as_o in_o samaria_n jerusalem_n antioch_n ephesus_n answ_n although_o we_o expect_v not_o objection_n in_o this_o case_n against_o the_o currant_n tenent_n of_o our_o godly_a reformer_n baine_n parker_n etc._n etc._n with_o who_o we_o join_v and_o we_o may_v refer_v you_o to_o they_o for_o answer_v to_o this_o beat_a objection_n of_o the_o prelate_n yet_o we_o be_v not_o unwilling_a to_o examine_v what_o be_v say_v in_o this_o digression_n the_o argument_n stand_v thus_o if_o the_o number_n of_o believer_n be_v so_o great_a in_o some_o city_n as_o can_v not_o meet_v in_o
one_o assembly_n to_o edification_n then_o there_o be_v some_o other_o form_n of_o a_o church_n beside_o congregationall_a but_o so_o it_o be_v in_o samaria_n &c_n &c_n answ_n we_o deny_v the_o consequence_n for_o when_o they_o grow_v to_o so_o great_a a_o number_n they_o may_v fall_v into_o more_o congregationall_a church_n and_o so_o no_o other_o form_n arise_v from_o the_o multitude_n but_o we_o suppose_v you_o mean_v of_o such_o a_o multitude_n as_o be_v call_v a_o church_n and_o therefore_o to_o answer_v to_o your_o assumption_n we_o deny_v that_o any_o such_o multitude_n of_o believer_n as_o be_v here_o call_v a_o church_n be_v so_o great_a as_o can_v not_o meet_v to_o edification_n and_o first_o concern_v samaria_n reply_n that_o there_o be_v a_o church_n gather_v in_o samaria_n will_v not_o be_v deny_v for_o they_o receive_v the_o word_n and_o be_v baptize_v but_o that_o the_o church_n in_o that_o city_n be_v only_o a_o congregationall_a assembly_n be_v more_o than_o can_v probable_o be_v conclude_v answ_n we_o grant_v a_o church_n or_o church_n be_v gather_v in_o samaria_n and_o we_o accept_v your_o reason_n as_o good_a because_o they_o receive_v the_o word_n and_o be_v baptize_v where_o by_o the_o way_n you_o grant_v what_o we_o plead_v for_o before_o that_o the_o apostle_n gather_v church_n when_o they_o baptize_v they_o but_o that_o there_o be_v but_o one_o congregationall_a assembly_n lie_v not_o in_o we_o to_o prove_v until_o you_o prove_v that_o all_o the_o believer_n be_v call_v a_o church_n or_o one_o church_n which_o do_v not_o appear_v in_o the_o whole_a story_n act_v 8._o nor_o any_o other_o where_o that_o we_o can_v find_v and_o it_o be_v very_o probable_a that_o as_o philip_n convert_v and_o baptize_v so_o great_a a_o multitude_n at_o several_a time_n and_o gather_v they_o into_o the_o church_n or_o church_n as_o he_o baptize_v they_o so_o he_o may_v gather_v several_a church_n as_o well_o as_o one_o see_v that_o none_o doubt_v but_o that_o congregationall_a church_n be_v a_o ordinance_n of_o christ_n what_o ever_o man_n contend_v for_o beside_o and_o therefore_o be_v the_o number_n of_o believer_n in_o samaria_n as_o great_a as_o you_o will_v have_v it_o it_o prove_v nothing_o reply_n the_o church_n at_o jerusalem_n be_v one_o and_o distinct_a yet_o increase_v to_o 3000_o then_o to_o 5000_o etc._n etc._n answ_n be_v it_o so_o the_o increase_n be_v very_o great_a yet_o so_o long_o as_o they_o be_v call_v one_o distinct_a church_n it_o be_v one_o congregation_n viz._n until_o they_o scatter_v by_o the_o persecution_n about_o stephen_n act_v 7._o 8._o which_o be_v evident_a by_o these_o two_o argument_n first_o act_v 2_o 41_o etc._n etc._n where_o we_o see_v the_o 3000_o add_v to_o the_o 120._o they_o have_v their_o communion_n together_o describe_v 1_o in_o regard_n of_o their_o spiritual_a communion_n to_o be_v in_o the_o apostle_n doctrine_n fellowship_n break_v of_o bread_n and_o prayer_n verse_n 42._o second_o in_o regard_n of_o their_o outward_a communion_n in_o the_o good_a thing_n of_o this_o life_n they_o bid_v all_o thing_n common_a and_o sell_v their_o possession_n etc._n etc._n verse_n 44_o &_o 45_o now_o the_o manner_n of_o both_o part_n of_o this_o communion_n in_o respect_n of_o time_n and_o place_n be_v describe_v verse_n 46._o viz._n in_o their_o spiritual_a duty_n they_o continue_v daily_o with_o one_o accord_n in_o the_o temple_n and_o second_o in_o respect_n of_o their_o outward_a communion_n in_o their_o state_n they_o eat_v their_o meat_n from_o house_n to_o house_n this_o latter_a require_v many_o table_n and_o many_o house_n to_o provide_v for_o they_o so_o that_o although_o in_o their_o outward_a communion_n it_o be_v in_o private_a house_n yet_o their_o spiritual_a communion_n it_o be_v with_o one_o accord_n in_o one_o place_n viz._n the_o temple_n where_o they_o have_v room_n enough_o be_v the_o place_n erect_v for_o a_o national_n church_n and_o have_v favour_n with_o all_o the_o people_n be_v not_o interrupt_v therein_o by_o any_o persecution_n we_o need_v not_o step_v out_o of_o our_o way_n to_o reply_v to_o all_o that_o be_v say_v against_o this_o reason_n it_o be_v enough_o for_o we_o to_o note_v that_o they_o daily_o with_o one_o accord_n meet_v and_o that_o in_o the_o temple_n which_o be_v not_o answer_v by_o any_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d or_o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 2_o this_o appear_v act_v 6._o 1_o 5._o where_o it_o be_v evident_a the_o election_n of_o deacon_n be_v before_o and_o by_o the_o multitude_n verse_n 1._o by_o the_o whole_a multitude_n verse_n 5._o and_o this_o be_v the_o last_o church-meeting_n and_o church-act_n we_o read_v of_o before_o their_o scatter_n neither_o can_v it_o appear_v that_o the_o jew_n and_o grecian_n who_o widow_n murmur_v be_v two_o distinct_a congregation_n but_o the_o contrary_n be_v evident_a in_o that_o the_o deacon_n be_v choose_v all_o by_o the_o whole_a and_o for_o the_o whole_a not_o distinct_o so_o many_o for_o this_o and_o so_o many_o for_o that_o church_n as_o it_o be_v needful_a if_o they_o be_v two_o church_n these_o proof_n be_v so_o clear_a the_o inconvenience_n object_v be_v of_o no_o force_n and_o sufficient_o answer_v by_o many_o example_n of_o as_o great_a assembly_n meet_v ordinary_o to_o edification_n as_o beside_o the_o auditory_a of_o chrysostome_n cite_v by_o other_o the_o assembly_n of_o stepney_n in_o london_n y●rmouth_n in_o norfolk_n and_o other_o in_o our_o experience_n beza_n a_o man_n not_o love_v to_o hyperbolise_v say_v that_o be_v in_o paris_n there_o meet_v at_o a_o sermon_n 332._o 24000._o and_o of_o a_o synodall_n assembly_n that_o they_o receive_v the_o lords-supper_n no_o less_o than_o 10000_o beza_n epist._n 65._o reply_n without_o question_v the_o number_n of_o believer_n at_o antioch_n be_v not_o small_a of_o which_o it_o be_v express_o say_v that_o a_o great_a number_n believe_v and_o that_o a_o great_a multitude_n be_v add_v to_o the_o lord_n by_o the_o preach_n of_o barnabas_n etc._n etc._n and_o therefore_o we_o may_v think_v the_o church_n rise_v to_o such_o a_o bigness_n as_o can_v not_o well_o assemble_v in_o one_o congregation_n act_v 11._o 21._o &_o 14._o 27._o answ_n 1_o in_o that_o place_n act_v 11._o 21._o the_o great_a number_n that_o believe_v be_v the_o fruit_n of_o all_o the_o scatter_a christian_n at_o phenice_n cyprus_n and_o antioch_n for_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o lord_n be_v with_o they_o all_o and_o their_o whole_a success_n be_v sum_v up_o together_o nothing_o say_v before_o of_o the_o other_o place_n 2_o though_o paul_n and_o barnabas_n teach_v much_o people_n yet_o it_o prove_v not_o that_o this_o much_o people_n be_v convert_v to_o the_o church_n 3_o though_o much_o people_n be_v add_v to_o the_o lord_n yet_o do_v it_o follow_v they_o be_v more_o than_o can_v meet_v in_o one_o congregation_n and_o if_o first_o disciple_n be_v there_o call_v christian_n must_v it_o need_v be_v for_o their_o number_n and_o not_o rather_o for_o eminent_a likeness_n to_o christ_n with_o other_o specialty_n of_o providence_n 4_o it_o be_v express_o say_v the_o church_n be_v gather_v together_o act_v 14._o 27._o which_o be_v not_o mean_v of_o the_o elder_n only_o as_o if_o they_o only_o can_v meet_v for_o chap._n 15._o 30._o they_o gather_v the_o multitude_n together_o so_o that_o it_o be_v not_o such_o a_o number_n but_o may_v meet_v together_o in_o one_o place_n reply_n the_o number_n of_o believer_n be_v great_a at_o ephesus_n where_o paul_n preach_v two_o year_n all_o that_o dwell_v in_o asia_n hear_v the_o word_n a_o great_a door_n and_o effectual_a way_n open_v to_o he_o where_o the_o shrine_n of_o diana_n her_o temple_n be_v in_o danger_n to_o be_v set_v at_o nought_o where_o those_o that_o use_v curious_a art_n burn_v their_o book_n open_o which_o can_v not_o be_v do_v without_o great_a danger_n of_o the_o church_n unless_o a_o great_a part_n of_o the_o city_n have_v believe_v act_v 19_o 10_o 19_o 27._o answ_n 1_o be_v it_o so_o that_o many_o be_v convert_v and_o the_o word_n grow_v mighty_o this_o prove_v not_o that_o all_o who_o hear_v paul_n be_v of_o the_o church_n of_o ephesus_n for_o then_o all_o asia_n shall_v be_v of_o that_o church_n act_n 19_o 10._o who_o do_v hear_v the_o word_n both_o jew_n and_o gentile_n as_o for_o the_o danger_n of_o the_o shrine_n and_o diana_n temple_n to_o be_v set_v at_o nought_o a_o little_a spark_n may_v kindle_v such_o fear_n and_o raise_v such_o outcry_n in_o the_o covetous_a craftsman_n by_o who_o the_o whole_a city_n be_v set_v in_o a_o superstitious_a uproar_n our_o own_o experience_n may_v teach_v how_o soon_o a_o profane_a people_n will_v cry_v out_o against_o a_o faithful_a minister_n before_o he_o have_v convert_v
this_o case_n to_o assent_v the_o right_a way_n of_o church_n elect_v officer_n and_o enjoy_v ordinance_n against_o all_o corruption_n that_o have_v be_v in_o the_o church_n do_v not_o make_v a_o nullity_n of_o the_o ordinance_n themselves_o we_o may_v say_v that_o this_o conclusion_n rise_v beyond_o measure_n the_o objection_n be_v thus_o answer_v we_o leave_v the_o conclusion_n to_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o indifferent_a reader_n chap._n xii_o reply_n to_o the_o seven_o consideration_n the_o practice_n of_o the_o church_n of_o stranger_n in_o london_n record_v by_o john_n alasco_n be_v for_o differ_v from_o your_o judgement_n and_o practice_n in_o the_o point_n in_o question_n for_o first_o say_v they_o paul_n testify_v that_o the_o church_n itself_o without_o exception_n of_o any_o member_n of_o it_o be_v clean_o or_o holy_a by_o the_o administration_n of_o baptism_n answ_n we_o confess_v the_o same_o reply_n second_o they_o bold_a communion_n with_o the_o church_n of_o england_n as_o one_o with_o they_o answ_n the_o church_n of_o england_n they_o call_v it_o not_o but_o the_o english_a church_n and_o we_o deny_v not_o the_o same_o in_o a_o orderly_a way_n as_o they_o also_o require_v testimony_n of_o their_o piety_n if_o any_o do_v but_o present_a a_o child_n to_o baptism_n in_o their_o church_n we_o have_v often_o profess_v this_o and_o by_o your_o own_o grant_n most_o of_o the_o approve_a christian_n among_o we_o be_v not_o member_n of_o the_o english_a church_n have_v renounce_v their_o right_n of_o membership_n and_o commuion_n with_o the_o church_n they_o be_v of_o there_o reply_n three_o this_o order_n be_v observe_v by_o they_o to_o prevent_v the_o imposture_n of_o some_o that_o pretend_v to_o the_o english_a they_o be_v join_v to_o the_o stranger_n &_o contra_fw-la answ_n this_o be_v not_o the_o only_a reason_n of_o their_o order_n for_o his_o word_n be_v all_o stranger_n do_v not_o join_v themselves_o to_o our_o church_n yea_o there_o be_v those_o that_o avoid_v all_o church_n etc._n etc._n which_o plain_o show_v they_o look_v further_a than_o such_o according_a to_o our_o practice_n even_o their_o own_o country_n man_n flee_v for_o religion_n as_o we_o be_v they_o yet_o receive_v they_o not_o till_o by_o public_a profession_n of_o faith_n and_o subjection_n to_o discipline_n they_o join_v themselves_o to_o some_o congregationall_a church_n second_o this_o show_v what_o disorder_n and_o abuse_v of_o ordinance_n will_v follow_v from_o such_o a_o liberty_n to_o admit_v such_o as_o be_v not_o join_v to_o some_o church_n for_o by_o this_o mean_v many_o will_v neglect_v all_o order_n and_o discipline_n if_o they_o may_v but_o have_v the_o seal_n three_o to_o put_v all_o out_o of_o question_n that_o their_o practice_n and_o judgement_n in_o effect_n be_v the_o same_o with_o we_o in_o this_o point_n note_v the_o first_o question_n propound_v by_o they_o be_v these_o infant_n which_o you_o offer_v the_o ●eed_n of_o this_o church_n that_o they_o may_v lawful_o be_v here_o baptize_v by_o our_o ministry_n chap._n xiii_o thus_o far_o we_o have_v answer_v to_o the_o reply_v make_v to_o the_o consideration_n in_o our_o answer_n to_o the_o 3._o and_o 4._o position_n now_o whereas_o we_o take_v notice_n of_o three_o objection_n against_o our_o first_o consideration_n and_o answer_v the_o same_o it_o please_v the_o learned_a author_n to_o take_v up_o only_o two_o of_o they_o and_o with_o much_o enlargement_n to_o urge_v the_o same_o as_o his_o reason_n against_o the_o position_n and_o to_o apply_v our_o answer_n thereunto_o by_o which_o mean_v our_o answer_n to_o the_o objection_n brief_o set_v down_o may_v seem_v not_o so_o apt_a and_o full_a here_o as_o they_o will_v appear_v in_o their_o proper_a place_n and_o therefore_o it_o will_v be_v needful_a for_o we_o to_o enlarge_v ourselves_o somewhat_o in_o answer_v some_o passage_n at_o least_o in_o the_o reason_n as_o they_o be_v here_o propound_v before_o we_o come_v to_o the_o reply_n reply_n reason_n 1._o that_o sacred_a order_n god_n have_v set_v in_o his_o visible_a church_n etc._n etc._n answ_n these_o word_n with_o all_o that_o follow_v whatever_o they_o may_v seem_v to_o carry_v with_o they_o be_v nothing_o but_o a_o bare_a denial_n of_o the_o position_n in_o variety_n of_o expression_n reply_n for_o first_o the_o baptism_n of_o john_n be_v true_a baptism_n etc._n etc._n but_o he_o never_o demand_v of_o those_o he_o receive_v whether_o they_o be_v enter_v into_o church_n covenant_n etc._n etc._n answ_n this_o we_o have_v in_o substance_n before_o and_o be_v answer_v with_o all_o the_o other_o instance_n in_o this_o first_o reason_n in_o our_o answer_n to_o the_o reply_n to_o the_o first_o consideration_n and_o in_o other_o place_n and_o therefore_o in_o vain_a here_o to_o repeat_v the_o same_o and_o we_o have_v observe_v more_o than_o once_o your_o plain_a confession_n that_o the_o apostle_n constitute_v church_n by_o baptism_n even_o such_o church_n as_o they_o set_v elder_n in_o by_o the_o election_n of_o the_o people_n reply_n the_o second_o reason_n in_o substance_n be_v this_o because_o from_o christ_n and_o the_o constant_a practice_n of_o the_o apostle_n we_o learn_v that_o such_o as_o be_v call_v of_o god_n receive_v the_o holy_a ghost_n believe_v in_o the_o lord_n profess_v their_o faith_n in_o he_o with_o repentance_n and_o amendment_n of_o life_n have_v a_o right_n to_o baptism_n and_o desire_v it_o be_v wrong_v if_o they_o be_v deprive_v thereof_o answ_n we_o grant_v the_o whole_a but_o as_o it_o be_v suppose_v in_o due_a order_n they_o must_v receive_v it_o so_o we_o desire_v no_o more_o for_o we_o grant_v upon_o these_o common_a ground_n such_o have_v jus_o ad_fw-la rem_fw-la but_o not_o jus_o in_o re_fw-mi and_o the_o immediate_a fruition_n of_o they_o reply_n three_o by_o a_o lively_a faith_n a_o man_n have_v internal_a communion_n with_o christ_n by_o profession_n of_o the_o entire_a faith_n join_v with_o conformity_n of_o life_n in_o righteousness_n holiness_n and_o fellowship_n of_o love_n he_o be_v a_o member_n of_o the_o visible_a congregation_n or_o flock_n of_o christ_n though_o no_o set_a member_n of_o a_o free_a independent_a society_n and_o baptism_n be_v a_o seal_n of_o our_o admission_n into_o the_o flock_n of_o christ_n not_o ever_o more_o but_o by_o accident_n of_o our_o receive_n into_o a_o particular_a congregation_n answ_n this_o reason_n stand_v upon_o such_o a_o sense_n of_o the_o catholic_a church_n as_o can_v be_v find_v and_o it_o be_v before_o confess_v that_o the_o catholic_n church_n consist_v of_o all_o true_a particular_a church_n as_o the_o part_n of_o it_o and_o therefore_o how_o can_v a_o man_n be_v visible_o a_o member_n of_o the_o whole_a and_o belong_v to_o no_o part_n thereof_o second_o we_o deny_v not_o but_o such_o have_v a_o right_a to_o be_v in_o the_o particular_a church_n and_o so_o to_o baptism_n and_o all_o ordinance_n but_o as_o by_o 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the_o heathen_a where_o neither_o any_o church_n nor_o member_n of_o it_o take_v knowledge_n thereof_o and_o therefore_o bare_a profession_n do_v not_o admit_v man_n but_o make_v they_o fit_a to_o be_v receive_v and_o admit_v into_o the_o visible_a church_n your_o four_o reason_n we_o have_v have_v twice_o before_o and_o answer_v the_o same_o reply_n to_o our_o answer_n of_o the_o first_o objection_n from_o the_o instance_n of_o the_o centurion_n lydia_n the_o jailor_n and_o the_o eunuch_n first_o if_o where_o the_o holy_a ghost_n be_v give_v and_o receive_v and_o faith_n profess_v according_a to_o god_n ordinance_n there_o none_o may_v hinder_v from_o be_v baptize_v soil_n by_o such_o as_o have_v power_n to_o baptize_v they_o then_o either_o such_o be_v member_n of_o the_o church_n or_o baptism_n be_v not_o a_o privilege_n of_o the_o church_n than_o it_o be_v not_o essential_a to_o baptism_n in_o the_o
but_o of_o what_o be_v to_o be_v require_v of_o such_o as_o join_v unto_o a_o church_n for_o a_o church_n may_v be_v a_o true_a church_n and_o yet_o be_v very_o corrupt_a as_o be_v general_o observe_v by_o protestant_a writer_n hoth_v out_o of_o the_o example_n of_o some_o church_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n and_o that_o of_o the_o old_a in_o the_o great_a apostasy_n thereof_o we_o think_v in_o this_o same_o doctor_n field_n expression_n may_v be_v safe_o 7_o receive_v some_o profess_v christ_n say_v he_o but_o not_o whole_o and_o entire_o as_o heretic_n some_o profess_v the_o whole_a save_a truth_n but_o not_o in_o unity_n as_o schismatic_n some_o profess_v it_o in_o untie_v but_o not_o in_o sincerity_n as_o profane_a person_n and_o hypocrite_n some_o in_o unity_n and_o sincerity_n all_o these_o be_v partaker_n of_o the_o heavenly_a call_n by_o profession_n of_o the_o truth_n and_o consequent_o in_o some_o degree_n and_o sort_n the_o church_n etc._n etc._n but_o we_o think_v that_o 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certainty_n from_o such_o infallible_a sign_n of_o it_o as_o may_v demonstrate_v the_o hide_a be_v of_o it_o within_o but_o in_o the_o judgement_n of_o charity_n which_o hope_v the_o best_a 1_o cor._n 12_o 7_o in_o the_o weak_a christian_n and_o mean_a profession_n even_o when_o it_o sometime_o fear_v the_o worst_a and_o be_v not_o able_a at_o the_o present_a to_o convince_v the_o contrary_n three_o this_o judgement_n of_o charity_n concern_v the_o truth_n of_o another_o profession_n or_o that_o which_o be_v call_v the_o work_n of_o grace_n be_v to_o be_v regulate_v by_o the_o word_n which_o christ_n have_v leave_v as_o a_o complete_a rule_n not_o only_o of_o faith_n but_o also_o of_o love_n and_o charity_n to_o guide_v both_o in_o their_o act_n unto_o their_o end_n and_o hence_o large_a profession_n and_o long_a relation_n of_o the_o work_n of_o grace_n though_o full_a of_o exceed_a glory_n when_o humble_o and_o prudent_o make_v we_o exact_v not_o rigorous_o and_o necessary_o of_o all_o because_o the_o rule_n of_o charity_n direct_v we_o not_o so_o to_o judge_v because_o many_o christian_n may_v be_v draw_v to_o christ_n and_o have_v a_o seed_n of_o faith_n yet_o may_v sometime_o not_o know_v it_o sometime_o remember_v not_o the_o work_n of_o it_o sometime_o through_o bashfulness_n fear_n want_v of_o part_n nor_o not_o train_v up_o under_o a_o know_a ministry_n not_o be_v able_a to_o profess_v it_o so_o full_o and_o clear_o hence_o also_o to_o keep_v out_o other_o from_o communion_n out_o of_o groundless_a fear_n that_o all_o their_o profession_n may_v be_v in_o hypocrisy_n we_o allow_v not_o because_o no_o man_n in_o his_o charity_n be_v to_o be_v rule_v by_o his_o fear_n but_o by_o the_o word_n hence_o also_o to_o account_v any_o unfit_a for_o the_o church_n because_o their_o heart_n can_v close_v with_o they_o or_o because_o they_o like_v not_o their_o spirit_n speak_v not_o with_o favour_n or_o any_o such_o like_a principle_n and_o yet_o can_v give_v no_o rule_n or_o convict_a argument_n from_o the_o word_n why_o thus_o they_o do_v we_o think_v be_v rigour_n not_o charity_n regulate_v by_o the_o word_n for_o humane_a charity_n do_v not_o make_v god_n church_n but_o such_o person_n which_o from_o god_n according_a to_o the_o rule_n of_o god_n charity_n be_v to_o receive_v and_o therefore_o the_o rule_n be_v to_o be_v attend_v here_o it_o be_v necessary_a to_o look_v for_o a_o ground_n of_o certainty_n to_o faith_n but_o not_o for_o charity_n which_o can_v be_v infallible_o certain_a of_o another_o estate_n and_o therefore_o upon_o a_o hopeful_a supposition_n that_o the_o premise_n their_o profession_n be_v true_a hopeful_o only_o make_v the_o conclusion_n the_o question_n ●eing_v bring_v to_o this_o narrow_a it_o will_v here_o lie_v viz._n first_o whether_o profession_n of_o the_o work_n of_o grace_n and_o faith_n be_v not_o require_v of_o those_o that_o enter_v into_o the_o church_n second_o with_o what_o profession_n of_o the_o work_n of_o grace_n charity_n according_a to_o a_o rule_n be_v to_o rest_v satisfy_v the_o first_o we_o think_v be_v write_v with_o the_o beam_n of_o the_o sun_n for_o it_o be_v evident_a that_o neither_o the_o lord_n in_o the_o old_a testament_n exod._n 19_o or_o in_o the_o new_a testament_n act_n 2._o and_o in_o other_o like_a scripture_n do_v call_v for_o a_o profession_n of_o the_o doctrine_n of_o faith_n only_o but_o especial_o of_o the_o work_n of_o faith_n for_o when_o the_o lord_n promise_v to_o be_v a_o god_n to_o his_o people_n exd._n 19_o deut._n 29._o it_o be_v not_o with_o this_o condition_n if_o they_o do_v believe_v his_o word_n to_o be_v true_a etc._n etc._n but_o if_o they_o will_v hear_v his_o voice_n and_o keep_v his_o covenant_n which_o in_o a_o prepare_a people_n be_v a_o manifestation_n of_o a_o work_n of_o grace_n so_o when_o the_o apostle_n be_v require_v to_o go_v preach_v to_o all_o nation_n and_o baptize_v they_o and_o teach_v they_o look_v as_o they_o do_v require_v such_o a_o faith_n as_o be_v save_v he_o that_o believe_v shall_v be_v save_v so_o upon_o the_o profession_n thereof_o they_o do_v receive_v they_o as_o also_o appear_v act_v 2._o 38._o which_o therefore_o can_v not_o be_v of_o the_o doctrine_n of_o faith_n for_o that_o the_o devil_n do_v and_o tremble_v and_o profane_a man_n of_o much_o knowledge_n may_v do_v and_o yet_o unfit_a to_o be_v receive_v and_o therefore_o it_o be_v of_o the_o work_n of_o faith_n and_o therefore_o act._n 8._o 37._o philip_n not_o only_o require_v faith_n but_o a_o believe_a with_o all_o the_o heart_n of_o the_o eunuch_n and_o upon_o such_o a_o profession_n baptize_v he_o and_o hence_o the_o church_n erect_v by_o the_o apostle_n at_o corinth_n colosse_n ephesus_n etc._n etc._n be_v call_v saint_n and_o sanctify_v of_o god_n in_o christ_n jesus_n etc._n etc._n how_o be_v it_o because_o debito_fw-la and_o de_fw-la jure_fw-la only_o they_o shall_v be_v so_o then_o all_o who_o hear_v the_o gospel_n though_o they_o reject_v it_o may_v be_v call_v a_o church_n for_o de_fw-fr jure_fw-la they_o ought_v to_o be_v so_o or_o be_v it_o because_o there_o be_v some_o that_o be_v true_o such_o among_o they_o and_o so_o in_o concreto_fw-la be_v call_v a_o church_n and_o body_n of_o christ_n not_o only_o so_o for_o there_o may_v be_v some_o visible_a church_n of_o visible_a saint_n and_o yet_o none_o among_o they_o of_o the_o invisible_a church_n unless_o any_o will_v think_v that_o to_o be_v of_o the_o church_n invisible_a be_v essential_a to_o the_o be_v and_o title_n of_o a_o visible_a church_n and_o therefore_o it_o be_v from_o their_o profession_n of_o save_a faith_n which_o they_o maintain_v be_v a_o church_n as_o it_o be_v require_v to_o the_o gather_n into_o a_o church_n john_n baptist_n also_o though_o he_o baptize_v none_o into_o a_o new_a church_n and_o therefore_o may_v require_v the_o less_o yet_o as_o he_o real_o promise_v remission_n of_o sin_n by_o the_o messiah_n so_o he_o require_v that_o very_a faith_n and_o repentance_n which_o may_v make_v they_o partaker_n of_o this_o heavenly_a benefit_n and_o therefore_o if_o what_o he_o require_v they_o manifest_v by_o their_o profession_n and_o confession_n of_o sin_n it_o be_v not_o only_o to_o believe_v the_o doctrine_n of_o faith_n but_o a_o save_a work_n of_o faith_n which_o they_o hold_v forth_o and_o therefore_o it_o be_v not_o a_o outward_a profession_n of_o faith_n according_a to_o a_o creed_n which_o be_v require_v for_o then_o a_o papist_n be_v fit_a matter_n for_o a_o church_n nor_o willingness_n to_o hear_v the_o word_n and_o receive_v the_o sacrament_n for_o then_o heap_n of_o profane_a person_n be_v to_o be_v receive_v into_o the_o church_n but_o it_o be_v profession_n of_o a_o work_n and_o save_a work_n
mean_n of_o worship_n which_o those_o priest_n never_o be_v reply_n on_o the_o contrary_a if_o you_o will_v extend_v this_o text_n to_o all_o unworthy_a minister_n of_o what_o sort_n soever_o who_o the_o word_n of_o god_n condemn_v as_o not_o approve_a minister_n of_o god_n etc._n etc._n answ_n we_o intend_v no_o other_o sort_n then_o such_o as_o we_o have_v in_o hand_n the_o unable_a and_o ungodly_a idol_n priest_n of_o england_n and_o therefore_o this_o discourse_n concern_v we_o not_o for_o we_o free_o confess_v that_o it_o be_v lawful_a in_o divers_a case_n at_o least_o for_o a_o time_n to_o communicate_v with_o such_o unworthy_a minister_n as_o may_v be_v contain_v in_o your_o description_n but_o that_o people_n must_v and_o aught_o to_o join_v with_o such_o in_o the_o worship_n of_o god_n and_o sin_n if_o they_o separate_v from_o the_o ordinance_n as_o you_o say_v the_o scripture_n allege_v teach_v not_o this_o so_o evident_o that_o we_o can_v see_v as_o 1_o sam._n 2._o 12_o 13._o 17._o 24._o that_o imputation_n verse_n 24._o they_o make_v the_o lord_n people_n to_o transgress_v do_v not_o depend_v immediate_o on_o verse_n 13_o 14._o 17._o but_o on_o verse_n 22._o 23._o where_o they_o be_v charge_v to_o have_v lie_v with_o the_o woman_n the_o other_o passage_n be_v interrupt_v by_o the_o story_n of_o samuel_n and_o his_o mother_n verse_n 18_o 19_o 20_o 21._o so_o jer._n 8._o 8_o 9_o micah_n 3._o 11_o 12._o contain_v only_a threat_n against_o wicked_a minister_n but_o not_o a_o word_n to_o prove_v people_n ought_v to_o join_v with_o they_o etc._n etc._n phil._n 1._o 15._o speak_v of_o such_o as_o preach_v and_o preach_v christ_n though_o not_o of_o sincerity_n do_v not_o reach_v such_o minister_n as_o the_o word_n condemn_v for_o many_o such_o may_v be_v approve_v minister_n by_o the_o word_n have_v a_o call_v according_a to_o the_o same_o but_o we_o shall_v not_o contend_v in_o this_o case_n wherein_o we_o do_v not_o dissent_v so_o that_o christian_n be_v leave_v to_o their_o lawful_a liberty_n of_o withdraw_a from_o minister_n gross_o wicked_a and_o teacher_n of_o false_a doctrine_n or_o idle_a and_o unsufficient_a when_o they_o can_v reclaim_v they_o or_o remove_v they_o in_o the_o use_n of_o all_o lawful_a mean_n within_o their_o power_n reply_n the_o reason_n whereby_o the_o ancient_a church_n condemn_v the_o donatist_n and_o catharist_n for_o their_o voluntary_a and_o seditious_a separation_n and_o the_o modern_a church_n condemn_v the_o anabaptist_n for_o their_o rent_v from_o the_o body_n of_o christ_n will_v hold_v against_o separation_n from_o the_o prayer_n of_o the_o congregation_n because_o they_o be_v read_v by_o a_o ungodly_a minister_n we_o deny_v that_o we_o teach_v or_o hold_v such_o separation_n because_o read_v by_o a_o ungodly_a minister_n as_o be_v sufficient_o show_v before_o but_o what_o we_o speak_v be_v against_o conformity_n to_o and_o communion_n with_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o liturgy_n especial_o use_v by_o a_o unable_a as_o well_o as_o ungodly_a minister_n and_o therefore_o the_o argument_n mention_v will_v hold_v against_o our_o proposition_n just_a as_o the_o accusation_n and_o imputation_n of_o donatism_n puritanisme_n anabaptism_n which_o the_o prelate_n cast_v upon_o all_o nonconformist_n and_o man_n studious_a of_o reformation_n will_v hold_v and_o fasten_v upon_o they_o which_o be_v nothing_o at_o all_o reply_n the_o second_o proposition_n where_o the_o whole_a liturgy_n be_v use_v though_o by_o a_o able_a and_o godly_a minister_n it_o be_v not_o lawful_a to_o join_v in_o prayer_n in_o that_o case_n we_o can_v be_v of_o your_o judgement_n herein_o for_o in_o the_o time_n of_o the_o prophet_n and_o our_o saviour_n christ_n as_o great_a abuse_n no_o question_n be_v find_v etc._n etc._n but_o they_o never_o teach_v people_n to_o separate_v from_o the_o holy_a thing_n of_o god_n answ_n first_o we_o must_v still_o mind_v the_o reader_n of_o the_o true_a and_o full_a state_n of_o the_o question_n which_o in_o our_o answer_n be_v of_o join_v in_o prayer_n with_o and_o when_o that_o whole_a liturgy_n be_v use_v and_o he_o that_o join_v with_o that_o whole_a liturgy_n must_v needs_o be_v suppose_v to_o have_v actual_a communion_n with_o all_o the_o corruption_n thereof_o what_o ever_o they_o be_v and_o therefore_o though_o this_o proposition_n reach_v to_o the_o practice_n of_o able_a and_o godly_a minister_n yet_o let_v none_o think_v we_o plead_v herein_o separation_n from_o their_o ministry_n but_o only_o that_o people_n may_v not_o conform_v with_o they_o to_o any_o corruption_n in_o worship_n and_o by_o this_o proposition_n also_o the_o author_n may_v easy_o have_v see_v that_o we_o deny_v the_o other_o which_o be_v weave_v in_o with_o this_o not_o because_o of_o the_o ungodliness_n of_o the_o minister_n alone_o as_o he_o carry_v his_o dispute_n but_o chief_o in_o respect_n of_o the_o corruption_n of_o the_o worship_n together_o with_o the_o unlawfulnesse_n of_o such_o a_o ministry_n that_o be_v both_o unable_a and_o ungodly_a second_o concern_v the_o argument_n it_o run_v as_o full_a for_o conformity_n to_o all_o the_o corrupt_a ceremony_n of_o the_o book_n as_o the_o corrupt_a worship_n itself_o therein_o as_o be_v say_v before_o clear_v the_o one_o viz._n non-conformitie_n to_o ceremony_n show_v a_o reason_n why_o you_o will_v separate_v from_o the_o sacrament_n because_o you_o will_v not_o kneel_v according_a to_o the_o book_n and_o you_o answer_v your_o argument_n here_o allege_v against_o we_o but_o the_o reply_n proceed_v reply_n and_o if_o presence_n at_o form_n of_o prayer_n be_v not_o lawful_a by_o reason_n of_o the_o corruption_n allege_v there_o can_v be_v no_o visible_a society_n name_v since_o 200._o year_n after_o christ_n or_o thereabouts_o wherein_o a_o christian_a may_v lawful_o join_v in_o prayer_n read_v the_o scripture_n hear_v the_o word_n or_o participation_n of_o the_o sacrament_n their_o doctrine_n prayer_n 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pure_a than_o england_n in_o doctrine_n rite_n etc._n etc._n it_o may_v be_v that_o as_o general_o church_n be_v corrupt_a so_o they_o contemn_v and_o censure_v such_o as_o profess_v more_o purity_n but_o that_o there_o be_v some_o visible_a assembly_n more_o pure_a may_v be_v conceive_v by_o that_o testimony_n give_v to_o aerius_n and_o many_o orthodox_n christian_n with_o he_o though_o condemn_v for_o a_o heretic_n in_o that_o which_o we_o all_o now_o hold_v to_o be_v a_o undoubted_a truth_n also_o after_o the_o waldenses_n cast_v off_o the_o pope_n and_o his_o will_n worship_n and_o the_o follow_v reform_v church_n those_o of_o scotland_n geneva_n and_o divers_a other_o in_o france_n and_o switserland_n etc._n etc._n who_o doctrine_n rite_n and_o administration_n we_o doubt_v not_o will_v be_v confess_v more_o pure_a than_o english_a church_n it_o will_v be_v too_o tedious_a and_o in_o these_o know_a time_n
family_n with_o himself_o to_o the_o grief_n and_o hazard_n of_o his_o godly_a wife_n and_o hopeful_a child_n etc._n etc._n from_o all_o ordinance_n of_o christ_n to_o a_o people_n full_a of_o fanatical_a error_n be_v it_o christian_a liberty_n or_o dangerous_a licentiousness_n to_o leave_v such_o a_o man_n to_o his_o own_o counsel_n and_o not_o meddle_v with_o he_o reply_n may_v you_o not_o hear_v from_o your_o own_o ground_n that_o herein_o you_o have_v devise_v a_o expedient_a or_o necessary_a rite_n or_o custom_n to_o prevent_v the_o dissolution_n of_o the_o body_n which_o never_o come_v into_o he_o mind_n of_o the_o lord_n jesus_n the_o saviour_n of_o his_o body_n and_o in_o so_o do_v if_o your_o exposition_n hold_v good_a you_o break_v the_o second_o commandment_n and_o so_o press_v custom_n only_o expedient_a for_o the_o time_n as_o stand_a rule_n necessary_a for_o all_o time_n and_o all_o person_n to_o put_v that_o authority_n into_o the_o hand_n of_o man_n which_o god_n 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to_o our_o true_a relation_n and_o faithful_a profession_n most_o of_o these_o have_v be_v clear_v in_o the_o former_a passage_n where_o we_o meet_v with_o they_o and_o we_o marvel_v how_o they_o come_v in_o so_o twist_v together_o here_o again_o we_o shall_v here_o only_o clear_v ourselves_o of_o the_o first_o and_o refer_v the_o reader_n to_o their_o proper_a place_n to_o see_v our_o answer_n to_o the_o other_o here_o it_o be_v impute_v unto_o we_o that_o we_o have_v devise_v a_o rite_n to_o preserve_v the_o unity_n and_o prevent_v the_o dissolution_n of_o the_o body_n which_o we_o conceive_v be_v intend_v of_o this_o promise_n of_o not_o removal_n without_o leave_n which_o promise_n be_v not_o require_v of_o we_o nor_o make_v in_o our_o church_n covenant_n as_o we_o have_v say_v and_o the_o ground_n of_o this_o imputation_n be_v also_o a_o mere_a mistake_n arise_v from_o the_o confound_a of_o a_o second_o answer_n to_o the_o objection_n against_o our_o first_o reason_n with_o the_o second_o reason_n of_o our_o practice_n which_o be_v distinct_a and_o have_v a_o different_a scope_n for_o whereas_o some_o may_v object_v that_o this_o reason_n from_o the_o covenant_n hold_v with_o such_o as_o grant_v such_o a_o covenant_n lawful_a the_o answer_n say_v that_o some_o indeed_o question_v the_o necessity_n of_o it_o but_o we_o hope_v you_o do_v not_o question_v the_o lawfulness_n and_o thereupon_o the_o answer_n first_o give_v reason_n and_o proof_n of_o the_o lawfulness_n of_o it_o and_o second_o for_o the_o necessity_n which_o be_v take_v from_o the_o nature_n of_o all_o society_n incorporate_v which_o by_o a_o fundamental_a rule_n do_v require_v of_o all_o that_o enter_v into_o they_o and_o partake_v of_o the_o privilege_n thereof_o to_o conform_v to_o all_o such_o lawful_a rite_n and_o order_n as_o be_v expedient_a for_o the_o well_o be_v of_o that_o society_n the_o contrary_a whereof_o will_v be_v injurious_a to_o he_o to_o offer_v and_o confusion_n in_o they_o to_o accept_v and_o from_o hence_o it_o easy_o follow_v that_o a_o church_n be_v a_o body_n of_o a_o people_n enjoy_v privilege_n together_o it_o be_v necessary_a fundamental_o that_o they_o shall_v be_v join_v in_o some_o promise_n or_o covenant_n which_o covenant_n though_o in_o civil_a society_n it_o may_v consist_v in_o rite_n and_o order_n devise_v by_o themselves_o for_o their_o good_a yet_o in_o the_o church_n which_o be_v the_o body_n of_o christ_n this_o covenant_n be_v no_o other_o but_o to_o perform_v the_o duty_n require_v in_o the_o gospel_n towards_o god_n and_o one_o another_o without_o any_o rite_n or_o order_n devise_v by_o themselves_o as_o we_o profess_v in_o set_v forth_o the_o nature_n of_o the_o covenant_n and_o this_o be_v the_o true_a scope_n of_o those_o word_n let_v any_o judge_n what_o ground_n be_v give_v by_o we_o of_o such_o a_o imputation_n of_o devise_v rite_n etc._n etc._n neither_o do_v the_o second_o reason_n in_o the_o answer_n give_v any_o ground_n of_o this_o imputation_n for_o though_o it_o dispute_v from_o the_o necessary_a ruin_n of_o the_o church_n and_o all_o church_n if_o it_o be_v lawful_a for_o any_o member_n when_o whither_o and_o wherefore_o he_o please_v to_o depart_v from_o the_o church_n without_o consent_n yet_o there_o be_v not_o one_o syllable_n that_o give_v a_o hint_n of_o any_o rite_n custom_n or_o order_n devise_v by_o we_o to_o prevent_v the_o same_o but_o for_o the_o avoid_n thereof_o we_o still_o whole_o and_o only_o bind_v ourselves_o to_o the_o rule_n of_o the_o word_n to_o direct_v order_n and_o reform_v all_o action_n of_o this_o nature_n and_o to_o show_v unto_o man_n whether_o they_o may_v lawful_o remove_v or_o not_o remove_v not_o require_v any_o express_a promise_n to_o the_o contrary_a in_o this_o particular_a no_o more_o than_o in_o other_o and_o thus_o we_o hope_v we_o have_v resolve_v you_o of_o our_o practice_n as_o you_o desire_v to_o conclude_v this_o passage_n give_v we_o leave_v without_o offence_n to_o say_v thus_o much_o although_o through_o the_o grace_n of_o christ_n we_o desire_v humble_o to_o submit_v to_o this_o part_n of_o our_o trial_n even_o to_o go_v through_o evil_a report_n as_o well_o as_o good_a yea_o all_o the_o reproach_n and_o cruel_a mock_n of_o the_o world_n know_v that_o we_o have_v deserve_v much_o more_o from_o the_o hand_n of_o that_o god_n without_o who_o providence_n a_o tongue_n can_v not_o move_v against_o we_o yet_o we_o can_v but_o account_v it_o one_o of_o our_o poor_a affliction_n to_o suffer_v in_o this_o kind_n from_o the_o pen_n or_o tongue_n of_o our_o dear_o belove_a brethren_n for_o who_o we_o daily_o pray_v and_o to_o who_o we_o hope_v we_o shall_v never_o be_v provoke_v to_o return_v any_o other_o language_n then_o savour_v of_o love_n and_o respect_n but_o we_o must_v confess_v we_o meet_v with_o so_o many_o sore_a crimination_n oft_o upon_o mere_a mistake_n cast_v not_o only_o upon_o ourselves_o but_o the_o truth_n and_o way_n of_o god_n which_o we_o profess_v and_o that_o both_o by_o this_o learned_a author_n and_o some_o other_o that_o we_o can_v be_v so_o senseless_a of_o the_o dishonour_n be_v reflect_v upon_o the_o truth_n of_o god_n herein_o as_o whole_o to_o be_v silent_a and_o groan_n out_o the_o grief_n of_o our_o spirit_n to_o he_o that_o know_v our_o heart_n wherefore_o we_o humble_o beseech_v all_o our_o godly_a brethren_n to_o bear_v with_o we_o a_o little_a if_o after_o all_o the_o harsh_a passage_n of_o this_o reply_n such_o a_o heap_n of_o accusation_n as_o be_v here_o throw_v upon_o we_o move_v we_o to_o present_v to_o the_o reader_n a_o short_a view_n of_o such_o thing_n as_o be_v unjust_o and_o unground_o cast_v upon_o we_o and_o which_o we_o can_v but_o think_v have_v draw_v a_o black_a cloud_n over_o the_o glory_n of_o the_o holy_a discipline_n of_o christ_n which_o he_o have_v here_o set_v up_o among_o we_o to_o omit_v the_o general_a frame_n of_o this_o reply_n in_o present_v our_o opinion_n and_o way_n to_o the_o people_n as_o if_o we_o concur_v general_o with_o those_o of_o the_o rigid_a separation_n and_o differ_v almost_o in_o every_o thing_n from_o such_o godly_a brethren_n as_o have_v breathe_v after_o purity_n of_o ordinance_n and_o reformation_n to_o omit_v also_o the_o frequent_a insert_v of_o such_o term_n unto_o our_o question_n and_o argument_n contrary_a to_o the_o true_a state_n thereof_o which_o render_v every_o thing_n harst_o and_o full_a of_o rigidness_n to_o the_o ear_n of_o the_o reader_n as_o have_v be_v observe_v by_o we_o and_o omit_v also_o divers_a other_o supposition_n and_o objection_n we_o shall_v only_o desire_v those_o who_o have_v take_v up_o evil_a thought_n concern_v these_o church_n and_o the_o way_n of_o christ_n we_o walk_v in_o from_o this_o reply_n to_o note_v