Selected quad for the lemma: christian_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
christian_n	call_v	church_n	society_n	1,435	5	9.0715	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A85400	Innocency and truth triumphing together; or, The latter part of an answer to the back-part of a discourse, lately published by William Prynne Esquire, called, A full reply, &c. Beginning at the foot of p. 17. of the said discourse, with this title or superscription, Certain brief animadversions on Mr. John Goodwins Theomachia. Wherein the argumentative part of the said animadversions is examined; together with some few animadversions upon some former passages in the said reply. Licensed and printed according to order.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.	1645 (1645)	Wing G1176; Thomason E24_8; ESTC R22666	90,413	109

That experience manifests the contrary to what he here affirms viz. that the subordination or subjection of severall Trades Societies to the whole Corporation Parliament or supreame Magistrate doth not keep them all in peace and writie What contentiones quarrels emulations suits amongst them from day to day any such subordination or subjection notwithstanding 2. Whereas by way of opposition he addes that Independent Churches will be regulated obliged onely by their own peculiar edicts which must needs occasion infinite schismes and disorders We answer 1. We wish that by way of commendation and praise in many cases to Parliaments temporall Magistrates and Synods which is here cast upon Independent Churches by way of imputation and charge I mean regulation and obligement by their own peculiar edicts But 2. Whereas the charge is thus laid against these Churches that they will be regulated obliged onely by their own peculiar Edicts the truth is that they are every whit as willing to be regulated obliged by the Edicts of any other as by their own alwayes provided that they be conform to the Word and this conformitie sufficiently proved and made known unto them They put no difference at all between the mind of Christ presented unto them by others or discovered and found out by themselves Yea and that subordination and subjection which they all professe and own to the written word of God is a farre more effectuall and hopefull means to keep them all in peace and unitie then that subordination mentioned by Mr. Prynne is to keep all Trades and Societies in the same precious posture Onely in this one thing these poore Independent Churches desire Parliaments and Magistrates and Synods to be mercifull unto them that they cannot write any of them infallible nor yet subscribe unto any their injunctions or decisions in matters of Faith or which concern the worship and service of God without retaining the Scriptures for their Counsell and advising with them what to do therein To his third and last difference also we answer 1. That he saith very well in point of truth when he saith that Christians as Christians are all of one and the self same society and profession as those of one trade and calling are But this truth as yet is not at all conscious to his intention or purpose Therefore he addes therefore they should all have but one Church and Government as these trades have Nor doth this if granted make any whit more for the Presbyterian cause then for the Independent because it doth not follow Christians as Christians ought all to have one and the same Church and Government therefore this Church and Government ought to be Presbyterian Take a parallel Simeon and Levi ought to have been Brethren therefore they ought to have been Brethren in iniquitie Take another A●ania● and Sapphira being man and wife ought to have agreed together therefore they ought to have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord. But 2. If by his one Church he means one and the same Catholique mysticall and invisible Church We answer that Christians as Christians have all one and the same Church in this sense they are all members of this one Church But if he means one and the same ministeriall and visible Church we answer by demanding How can this thing be We have heard indeed of some Oecumenicall Councels but of Oecumenicall visible Churches wherein all Christians should be comprehended as members I beleeve there hath been Oecumenicall silence unto this day 3. Whereas he goeth about to set the comparison of his own making upright by stating it thus If some of one Fraternitie in London suppose Merchant-t tylors Sadlers c. should fall out among themselves and one would have one form of Government another another and thereupon divide themselves into severall conventicles and pety meetings in corners not at their common Hall and one chuse one Government or Master another another and so sever the Company and continue Independent this no doubt would prove an apparent schisme and seminary of infinite divisions to the distraction destruction of the whole Company and Fraternitie and then addes This is the true State of your Independencie We answer that the comparison thus stated holds no proportion or correspondence with the State of Independencie For 1. That number of Christians which pleads for Independencie so called is not the whole Socieitie of Christians nor indeed any confiderable part thereof in respect of number as that Fraternitie of Merchant-tayloes or Sadlers the comparison speaks of is therein supposed to be the whole Societie of such a Company Therefore to set Mr. Prynnes comparison upright and make it agree with the State of Independencie in this particular it must be stated thus Suppose two or three members of a numerous and vast companie consisting it may be of ten or twenty thousand persons should differ from the rest of the Societie in some things about their Government and hereupon should withdraw themselvs from that Society and seek incorporation elsewhere would such a dissent or withdrawing of so few from amongst so many any waies threaten the distraction much lesse the destruction of the whole Company 2. Suppose a considerable part of a Company should out of a conscientious dislike of the carriage of things in the Government of the body withdraw themselves and refuse subjection to this Government so ordered and administred though in probabilitie this act of theirs may occasion some distraction or disturbance in the rest of the body for a season yet supposing it done upon substantiall and due grounds it may be so farre bringing destruction to this body that very possibly it may occasion the Reformation and amendment of those things that were unjust in this Government and consequently destructive to the bodie and so become a means of the preservation of it from destruction And this is the true state of our Independencie 3. In case the Fraternity of Merchant-taylors in London should fall out amongst themselves and one would have one form of Government and another another and thereupon divide themselves c. What ever inconvenience should or might hereupon ensue to the Company yet still it was determined by equall and prudent Judges who or which partie gave the chief occasion of these distractions and rents there is no reason why any one partie should fall foule upon all the rest and give an extrajudiciall sentence for themselves For any thing that God hath yet determined to the contrary the Independent partie of Christians in the Kingdom may be as innocent yea more innocent of the breaches and distractions amongst us in point of Church Government them the Presbyterian They that call and plead for that Government which is held forth in the Scriptures calling and pleading for it in a regular meek and Christian manner are those that are innocent and those that call and plead for any other or indeed for any in a violent preposterous and unchristian manner light

the Parliament though I dare not gain-say it fearing lest Mr. Pryn claiming as it should seem a priviledge to make the privileges of Parliament what he pleaseth should make it a presumptuous and wilfull undermining of the undoubted priviledges of Parliament by the very roots yet I must ingenuously professe that it is a notion which I know not how to procure quarter for in my brain as yet What I may doe hereafter when the Gentleman shall bestow more cost and pains upon it to reconcile the disproportion which for the present it carrieth to my understanding I will not predetermine But none of all the Authors or Books that ever yet I was debtor unto for any grain or scruple of that knowledge wherewith God hath pleased to recompence my labour in studying ever licensed mee to call any Assembly the Representative Church of any State or Kingdome wherein there is not so much as any one Church-officer to be found Whereas he affirmes it in the same page a truth so cleare that no rationall man good Christian or subject can deny it that the whole representative Church and State of England in Parliament have sufficient authoritie by Gods law to over-rule and bind all or any particular members or congregations of it as well as the major part of an Independent Congregation power to over-vote and rule the lesser part and to order yea bind any of their particular members though for the danger aforesaid it be not perhaps so safe for me simply to call the latter assertion touching the comparison between the two powers either an error or a mistake yet that this assertion should be a truth so royally qualified that no reasonable man or good Christian can deny it seemes not so reasonable The reason is because in an Independent congregation all the members by free and voluntary consent have submitted themselves to the regulation and order of the whole body or which is the same of the major part of it and therefore this body having received a lawfull power in a lawfull way for the reiglement of her respective members may lawfully exercise it according to the tenor and true intent of the delegation of it whereas there are many thousands in the Church and State of England who by Mr. Prynnes owne acknowledgement p. 24. line 3. 4. have not given any such consent for their regulation in matters Ecclesiasticall and which concerne Religion unto the Parliament yea and there are many thousands more besides those which hee there describes and intends who will not owne any such Resignation Therefore the difference between the one case and the other is very broad and no lesse considerable so that a reasonable man may without any dispraise to his Reason and a good Christian without any prejudice to the goodnesse of his Christianity demurre a while before judgement upon the case Besides there is no question or ground of doubting but that a good Christian may lawfully and with a good conscience submit himself unto a godly able and faithfull Pastor together with his people whom he hath good ground to judge godly and faithfull also as well for their edification in their most holy faith as for the inspection regulation of themselves in matters of life and conversation But whether it be lawfull to submit to any man or any rank or association of men especially of men of whose sufficiencie and faith fulnesse in the things of God and Jesus Christ we have either but a very slender or no testimony at all yea whose persons are altogether unknowne to us in matters which concerne the worship and service of God cannot but be a question and that of great moment to all considering and conscientious men who are not already satisfied in the negative part of it The Apostles doe not onely permit but give it in charge to Christians in Church-fellowship to submit themselves one to another in the feare of God Eph. 5. 21. i. to be yeelding and tractable easie to be intreated one by another And submit your selves every man unto another 1 Pet. 5. 5. If one man ought to submit to another man in this kind much more ought one to submit unto many and most of all to the whole society of Saints whereof he is a member But as touching submission unto any man or men whatsoever in matters which concerne the worship and service of God the Scripture is so farre from imposing this upon any man that it imposeth the contrary and that with great Emphasis and weight Call no man your father upon earth is our Saviours owne charge Matth. 23. 9. for one is your Father which is in heaven And in the preceding verse Be ye not called Rabbi for one is your master or Doctor even Christ and ye all are brethren And the Apostle 1 Cor. 7. 23. Yee are bought with a price be ye not the servants of men He speakes of a servility or subjection in judgement and conscience to the decisions or determinations of men in matters of conscience and Religion And whosoever doth submit or subject himselfe in things of this nature unto any man or men whosoever that is resigne up his judgement and conscience to be ordered obliged and tied by the meere authority or magistery of men in such things Call's men Fathers on earth makes himselfe a servant unto men and consequently makes himself a transgressor both of our Saviours injunction and charge in this behalf and of his Apostles also Thirdly he that submits himselfe to a Pastor and Congregation of Saints for such regulation as hath been mentioned is presumed to know and understand before-hand of what spirit both the one and the other are how matters appertaining to the worship and service of God are carried managed and ordered amongst them so that he may with the full concurrence and consent of his judgement and conscience submit himselfe unto them as touching communion with them in their practice in this kind but what any Synod Assembly or Court of men will determine or enjoyn in such things cannot be known before-hand by any man and consequently no man can with a good conscience submit himselfe unto them as touching any of their determinations or decisions untill he first understands what they are and whether according to the light and judicature of his conscience agreeable to the word of God Fourthly in case a Pastor and Congregation shall afterwards so farre alter and vary from that posture either in Doctrine or practice wherein they stood when a man first joyned and submitted himselfe unto them that hee cannot with the peace of his conscience walk any longer with them hee may with leave obtained or otherwise if by request it cannot be obtained withdraw himselfe without any inconvenience from their communion and incorporate himselfe elswhere as he judgeth best This may bee done with farre lesse trouble and inconvenience then ordinarily a man upon a dislike of his Parochial Pastor can remove out of one Parish

incline and bow the hearts of both to the willing execution fulfilling of those commands And if so let them impose what Ecclesiasticall Government or Discipline they please they may if they please be obeyed and submitted unto upon what terms with what willingnesse and readinesse and by whom they desire And if Ministers be invested in the Propheticall office of Christ how dares Mr Prynne refuse to hearken unto them or ingage himself in a theologicall warre against them having no part or fellowship in this office himself Will he subject the spirit of the Prophets yea of those that prophecie in the Authoritie and by the vertue of the Propheticall office of Christ unto himself and his own spirit being no Prophet at all Letentur tenebrae erubescat lux Againe whereas in the same page he votes that if any man deny a certain odd kind of veritie so called and asserted by him he must renounce not onely his Christianitie but his Allegeance and Humanitie too I utterly renounce the consequence conceiving it to be tantamont with an absolute mistake For a man may deny that every Christian in point of Conscience is bound by the expresse resolution of Rom. 13. 1. 1 Pet. 2. 14 15. with severall other Scriptures as little to the purpose without any danger of blind obedience to lawfull decreas consonant to Gods Word c. without renouncing yea or so much as a shew of renouncing his Christianitie and much more of his Humanitie For what hath a mans humanitie to doe with the expresse resolution of Rom. 13. 1. to 6. Ezra 7. 26. Josh 1. 16 17 c. Or what hath the expresse Resolution of these and other Texts to preserve a mans Christianitie from the danger of bind obedience even to lawfull decrees in case the lawfulnesse of them be not seene nor so much as examined by those that submit unto them A man is in the same danger of blind obedience as well in respect of lawfull as unlawfull decrees Yea a man that after a serious and conscientious debate shall upon a mistaken ground submit unto an unlawfull decree acquits himself more like a Christian and with better acceptation unto God by following the light of his conscience upon such terms then he that shall subject himself unto a lawfull decree without knowing or caring to know what why or wherefore he so doth Againe Whereas in the same page he taxeth the Anti-querist for presuming an oversight in the Parliament and Synod before it be actually committed and censures this imaginary act of his as neither Christian charitable nor any way of Christ and for the proofe hereof cites 1 Cor. 13. 5. 7. Certainly all this is an oversight and nothing els but the presuming of an oversight where none is For he that saith thus Suppose the whole Parliament and Synod should erre in commanding a Government c. doth not so much as suppose much lesse presume that either of them will so erre no more then the Apostle Paul in saying If Christ be not risen presumes that Christ is not risen least of all doth that Text 1 Cor. 13. 5. 7. prove that act or speech of the Anti-querist here taxed to be either unchristian or uncharitable Nor is that marginall note in the same page excusable at any lower rate then a mistake of that kind which they that speak sparingly are wont to call an untruth which chargeth the Independent party that without discovery or proofe of their way they will have the Presbyterians blindly to submit unto it as the onely way of Christ Never was a poor innocent margin compell'd to carry a more guilty Annotation then this It is the first-born of abhorrencies in Independency to compell any man blindly to submit unto any thing That infinuation following is an arrow shot from the same bow viz. that the Anti-querist and his oppose and prejudicate both the Parliaments and Synods Proceedings though never so pious conscientious and religious This were something to the purpose if there were any thing to the proofe Verùm de genere hoc adeò sunt multa c. Whereas p. 8. because the two Brethren in their Reply to A. S. used this expression concerning the Congregationall Government that in time it cannot but overthrow all other sorts of Ecclesiasticall Government he gathers upon them with this insulting Interrogatory Is it not then a turbulent dangerous schismaticall unquiet that I say not insufferable Government by your own confessions which will admit no equall nor corrivall c. is not this either through weaknesse of understanding or strength of a worse principle an insufferable interpretation Or can it but call to remembrance that testimony of those two against our Saviour who are call'd false witnesses for their labour Mat. 26. 60. wherein they testified that he had said I can destroy the Temple of God and build it againe in three dayes as if he had spake concerning the materiall Temple whereas it is evident from Joh. 2. 21. that he spake concerning the Temple of his body In like manner what the two Brethren spake as is most apparent in the passage cited by him from p. 111. of the said Reply concerning the finall prevailing of the Congregationall Government over other Governments by reason of that affinitie which it hath with the Truth and consonancy with the word of God this man will needs interpret as if they spake it in respect of some fierce fiery turbulent domineering spirit wherewith that way of Government should be haunted or inspired above all others yea his pen blusheth not to avouch in effect that themselves confesse as much The whole passage in the said Reply that the Reader may the better judge is this Indeed by the beauty and perfect consonancy of this Government to the word of God it may very reasonably yea and upon higher terms then of reason meaning I suppose of Faith be thought that in time it cannot but overthrow all sorts of Ecclesiasticall Government and stand up it self in their stead Those words in this period it cannot but overthrow all sorts of Church-Government they borrow from the pen of their Adversary as appeares by their different character in which respect for a man confederate with him in the same cause to put a sinister or malevolent construction upon them though used by his opposites is very unnaturall and a breach of ingenuitie I verily beleeve without president Whereas a few lines after he vapours thus Will any Parliament State or Nation think you suffer such a Government to take root among them which will un-King un-Parliament un-Church un-Nation them altogether and make each severall Congregation an absolute Monarchie Church c. A man would think he were calling for the making of three Tabernacles one for Moses and one for Elias and a third for himself not knowing indeed what he speaketh In case a few poore Christians persons truly fearing God shall be permitted to worship and