cohabit or dwell near The confutation is I conceive he is out Ans. What is he against Parish Churches after all this No He only denieth it of a transient Member pro tempore as a Traveller and granteth it as to a stated Member And yet I am out Many and many a time have I written of Churches and use to distinguish first of the Equivocal Name saying That an occasional meeting of Christians for Worship may be called a Church and a transient Christian pro tempore a Member I have written more this way than ever he did But declared that it is a settled Political Society that I defined when I speak of what he now accuseth And why should a wise and good Man thus hastily trouble the World and make discord by pretending because he cannot have leisure to know what he speaks against § 3. My third Error is That to the being of a particular Church there is necessary a mutual Covenant or exprest consent between Pastor and People even every Member and the more express the better And I define a Church to be a Society of Christians consisting of Pastor and People associated by consent The force of the Confutation is I conceive he is out But wherein is it We have here such work as I never met with before 1. He granteth that none are to each other Pastor and People against their Wills Good still And yet do I err But saith he as Christ is Christ and a Saviour by Office whether Sinners will or not So faithful Ministers are Pastors by Office whether the People accept them or no. Reader it is not the least blemish of my Writings that on divers occasions I oft repeat the same things And many a time have I distinctly said 1. That the Ordainers judge who shall be a Minister of Christ in general 2. The Magistrate is judge whom he will Countenance Maintain or Tolerate 3. And the People must be consenting judges to whom they will trust the conduct of their Souls As it 's one thing to be a Licensed Physician and another to be Physician to this Hospital or Person If this Brother mean otherwise what meant he by saying that No Man can be a Pastor to a People against their will Doth he say and unsay in the next Lines Is Christ any Man's actual Saviour whether they believe in him and accept him or not I have oft said that in divers Cases the People may be bound in duty to Consent as all are bound to be Christians But they are no Christians or Church-members till they do Consent What then is it that he meaneth as our Difference § 4. Yes He saith No more is necessary to the being or well-being of a particular Church than this A company of Christians met together in publick for the Solemn Worship of God by Iesus Christ having a Pastor or Minister with them to guide and govern the Congregation and edifie himself and them by the Word and Sacraments where there is no Assembly of Pastor and People there is no Church and no longer than the Assembly lasteth are they a Church Ans. Did the World ever here this Doctrine before When the Church at Ierusalem Corinth Cenchrea Colosse Laodicea c. and the Churches in Iudea Galatia c. are mentioned when the Apostles ordained them Elders in every Church Acts 14. 23. Tit. 1. 3 5. c. Is the word Church here taken for no Christians longer than they are Assembled Doth not Scripture Canons Fathers and all Writers speak of Churches as Associated Christians remaining Churches all the Day and Year and not only while Assembled If the word Church may be taken for a Transient Assembly doth it follow that there is no other Have we so many Books of Ecclesiastical Policie if there be no Political Society that is a particular Church What an unpleasing talk is it to be put on a defence against such an Opponent § 5. Saith he I would but ask Mr. Baxter what is it that you mean by Associated by consent Ans. Have I in the Books cited by you so largely told you what I mean and must you print the Question before you will take an Answer Saith he Either you mean bare Assembling or some other thing Ans. Will you better understand me if I write it again than you did before When I told you at large in what Cases express consent by words or other signs is meet and that where the Laws settle Parish Churches ordinary attendance and submission to the Pastor's Office must be taken for express Consent But then I do hold that there is such a Church as I describe and that the Parish is not Unchurcht when the Assembly is dismist § 6. He saith When the Assembly breaks up the Church for that time ceaseth till the Meeting be renewed till which time they remain Christian Inhabitants Neighbours Families Parishioners or Sojourners the Pastor of the place dwelling among them Ans. In your Equivocal sense of a Church this is true In the Political sense they are a Church still as the Parliament Citizens Souldiers are a Parliament City Army when they Assemble not If your wrangle be de re do you deny their continued Relation If it be de nomine let the Scripture and all Nations judge whether the name Church belong to them no longer than they are Assembled 1. Then all that stay at Home or are Sick are no Church-members 2. Then the Bishop or Pastor hath no Church but while Assembled And he hath no Duty to perform for his Church but while Assembled 3. This is quite contrary to our Diocesans who say as honest Mr. Cawdry himself that a Diocess is the first particular Church and that it is no matter how many Assemblies it consist of and that there is no Church without a Bishop and so that we have no more Churches than Bishops 4. If a Bishop build a Temple on London Road where Travellers shall be his ordinary Hearers whom he shall never see again this is a Temporary Transient Church but verily it is another sort Church that is described in Scripture and by Ignatius Cyprian and all Church-writers And when the Bishop was to visit the Sick and take care of the Poor and to exhort from House to House it was as for a Church and not meerly as for Christian Neighbours And do you think no more consent was necessary to his special Duty to these more than to others and theirs to him than bare Assembling Atheists Infidels Hereticks may Assemble with the rest and Catechumens ordinarily did so and were never made themselves the judges whether and when they should be Baptized and admitted to Communion but the Pastors were the judges § 7. As to your oft mentioning the words Covenants and Oaths for such Church Associations as if I had written for Oaths or had not written against all needless Covenants which though you say not your words would make the Reader believe whilst over and over it is
set a faithful Minister in the Parish he becomes as to Office and Right a Pastor a Guide a Minister and Teacher to their Souls If they receive him not they are Rebels and Traytors against Christ and are no longer Christian People save as an Adulterous Wife c. Ans. Alas where can we say a Man will stop when he is once tumbling down the Hill 1. Why did you think your bare word should serve for this That it is Jesus Christ that made this the Office of the Magistrate 2. Is it all Magistrates or some only that have this Power and Jesus Christ chooseth us Pastors by If but some what the better are we for your Discourse if you tell us not how to know them And 3. Will you not then put the People upon a harder and more perilous Task to judge of all Magistrates fitness for this Trust than it would be to judge of their Pastor 4. If it be all then Heathens and Turks must choose Christians their Pastors If you say It is all Christian Magistrates then the Protestants in France are Rebels and not Christians for refusing Papists Priests If it be not Papists who are they Must all receive Lutherans or Socinians or Anabaptists or such like Pastors that live under Imposing Princes of those minds 5. Why do you limit it to faithful Ministers who must judge of their Faithfulness and Qualifications If the Magistrate Papists Socinians Prophane Magistrates or Heretical will judge as they are If the People we are wheeled about to that which is resisted And then When is it that they must judge before they receive him or after If before then must they have trial of him or take all for Faithful that are ordained by a Bishop or that Being Strangers they know no harm by him or all the Patrons present If so we come to the forementioned Misery If they must receive them first and try them after and depart from them when they shew themselves unfaithful then the People must either depose their Pastors or separate And most that separate from the Parish Churches do it as thinking the Ministers unfaithful And is this your Cure of Church-divisions And if never Preaching be a proof of the Unqualified the Canon forbids us to go from such And in some Countrys there are none within reach to go to from them And if there be the Canon suspendeth them if they receive one to their Communion that goeth from a Non-preaching Minister 6. Did any one Church on Earth receive a Pastor by the Magistrates imposition for the first 300 Years Or had not the Churches then rightly called Pastors 7. Did not the Orthodox Churches commonly refuse Bishops which Valens and such Erroneous Emperors set over them 8. Were not Parish Ministers chosen by the Bishops and People and not by Magistrates for 1400 Years in all known Churches in the World It was but the Patriarchs at first that were imposed on the People by the Emperors and afterwards when the Henrys contended with the Pope it was not for choice of Priests but for the Investiture of Bishops and Abhots only and in this they left the choice to the People and Clergie and pleaded but for Investiture per baculum annulum so that for ought I know Magistrates never imposed Priests on Parish Churches till the Reformation And since then besides Helvetia and Belgia it is but few that do it And even in England it is not done by Magistracy but by Patrons presenting and Diocesan Prelates Instituting So that if this be Christ's Way of making Pastors to particular Churches there were no true Pastors or Churches for 300 Years and perhaps none or next none for 1400 Years in Parishes And if this Doctrine be true the Catholick Christians in many Princes Reigns that rejected imposed Bishops if that were as bad as rejecting Parish Priests were Rebels and Traytors against Christ and no Christians And whether he so Stigmatize not the Universal Church for want of such Reception of Priests in almost all Ages I wish him to consider And whether that be like to be a better way of Concord which he and few such in the end of the World devise to the condemning of the Churches of all the former Ages that never had any such Concord 9. Hereby also he leaveth the Tolerated Churches in France Germany and all the Greek Churches and Copties and Syrians c. that are under adverse Princes to be without Pastors sent in the way of Christ's Appointment And yet vouchsafeth not to name one Text where Christ ever Appointed it 10. And when he maketh all in a Parish to be the Pastors Flock or Charge that are Christians he condemneth those Canons that ordained that if Any Bishop convert not the Hereticks in his City they shall be his Flock who doth convert them and all that have had two Churches in one Parish Or else he maketh Parish Priests to be Pluralists and if there be many Chappels and Churches in his Parish he is the Pastor to them all And yet he never tells us whether the Chappel Priest be also Pastor of the rest of the Parish And if so whether each be to Govern distinctly or one subordinately as Governed by the other Or whether both must agree each being but part of the Governing power 11. The same Man saith That multitudes of Parishioners are Rebels Traytors and no Christians c. and yet that we must give them all the Sacrament if demanded For multitudes demand the Sacrament to satisfie Law and Custom who declare that they take not the Priest for their Pastor nor as Authorized by Christ and multitudes that know not what Christianity or a Sacrament is and will not speak with the Minister about it 12. Did not he say before that the Man cannot be their Pastor without his own and the Peoples consent And yet the Magistrate may make me a Pastor to the Parish What Whether I will or not Am I also a Rebel Traytor and no Christian if I refuse What if the Parish have 60000 or 40000 Souls and I am not able to do a Pastor's Office for 500 What if I think it is a Sin to be obtruded on dissenting unwilling People And if my Dissent do not Unchristen me why doth the People's Unchristen them The Lord pity us we need no Enemies but our selves to seduce us and destroy nor any to make the most odious Schisms than the decryers of Schism What Schismatick doth condemn so many Christians and Churches as this Censure I can scarce except Mr. Dodwel whom in his last Book he called an odd disowned Man § 13. He tells us after of the Pastor's Duty to teach Publickly and from House to House And yet it 's no Church but when Assembled and he hath equal charge of all Christians though Papists in the Parish § 14. He saith No thing cuts off from a Church particular but what cuts off from Christ Christianity and the Church Universal Ans. 1. What if
a Man disown only the Pastor of that Church 2. What if he will not joyn with them in the Liturgy or Mode of Worship there used 3. What if that Church be Nestorians or Eutychians or Papists and he separates from them or they cast him out 4. What if he remove his Dwelling § 15. Next I am censured for demanding the People of Kederminster ' s consent to my Ministry and their Church Relation And he will now be distinct and maketh Answers to `distinct Questions for them But never tells us whether such Answers had been true or false if they had given them His first Question is Do we take you to have the just qualifications of a Pastor And the Answer is Learning is one qualification of which the Ignorant are incompetent Iudges And for Wisdom Holiness and Ministerial skill of Fidelity you are to make proof of them This is to be answered some Years after and not ask before-hand And so under Papists Socinians prophane Imposers you are to take all as Wise Holy Faithful till some Years after you find them otherwise Here he expoundeth his former words for rejecting the unqualified and unfaithful But who shall be judge at some Years after His second Question is Do we take you to be duly ordained And the Answer is We are bound to judge those to be justly Ordained which are so reputed and we have no reason to suspect Ans. 1. But whose reputation is it that you rest on Half the Parish say you are not justly ordained but by a Bishop The other half say you are justly ordained by Presbyters You falsifie if you feign them all of a mind 2. And who knows how to define and bound your Reasons of Suspicion 3. The Canons and Bishops say you have sorfeited your License if you conform not and without a License you may not Preach 4. And if you will question no mens orders you will have many Lay-Pastors To his 3d Quest. he answereth We question not your presentation Ans. And yet it is the Magistrate that must impose Ministers and in times of Usurpation he feigneth them to be unquestioned The sum hitherto is We must take any Man for our Pastor that is Ordained and presented But what if I knew that multitudes do not so doth it make them of that Church because they should consent and do not Of 1800 or 2000 only 600 would come to the Sacrament though they usually heard unless all the rest would receive it kneeling and administred by the Liturgy though they were left free to use that Gesture themselves and withal they were told that we had not a Bishops license The 4th Quest. is If we take you alone for our Pastor And it 's answered We know of no other in view but you Ans. All these are Fictions 1. I never desired nor consented to be their Pastor but to be one of three 2. I agreed with them in the Town-Hall publickly in writing to undertake only a Lecture which I had before the War in conjunction with another that should have the Presentation or Sequestration And yet honest Mr. Durel tells the World that it was a rich Benefice given me for my Service under Cromwel who would never endure me to speak to him 3. There were three Competitors One an old Vicar that somehow preacht once a Quarter that had the Presentation and was Sequestred 1. I will not tell you here for what 2. His Curate sequestred and removed 3. An old Chappel Curate grosly ignorant and vicious that lived by unlawful Marrying 4. And by all this you determine that of three of us none was Pastor but only that one that had the Presentation and so you depose all other Curates not presented And yet the Chappels that have such Curates put in only by the Parsons are true Churches such are your frequent Contradictions Sect. 16. Next as a meek Questioner he askt me Why I will not baptize their Infants if I take them for Christians and Parishioners He saith after If they make not a tolerable profession of Christianity in the publick Assembly they produce no valid claim we are not to admit them Ans. I suppose there are in the three next Parishes here 80000 Persons whom the Pastors never had any other account of as to their knowledg but by their coming to Church and half of them that rarely come And those of us that have talkt with almost all our Parishioners find that multitudes know not what Christianity or a Sacrament is A man about 80 years old in Kederminster said Christ was the Sun and the Holy Ghost the Moon Is standing up at the Creed then or sitting in the Church a tolerable profession Hobbes and his followers would do the same 2. But what obligation is on me to baptize all the Children of those that take me for none of their Pastor The Parish may have 20000 more than I am able to do the Pastoral Office for I cannot tell whether they come to Church or not If they do they are strangers to me some come into the Parish and others go out and many are Lodgers And he that as a Pastor is to Baptize is also to do abundance more to Catechize visit the Sick the Poor c. Am I bound to impossibilities for every stranger that I never knew Nor can I know so much as whether he be Christened or be indeed a Parishioner Yea a Church with you is only a present Assembly What if these persons assemble not or but twice or thrice a Year What if Travellers be that day of the Church Bishop Taylor saith Pref. of Repen No one can give account of those that he knoweth not Sect. 17. His talk of the Tares again deserveth no answer but read Expositors His repeated insinuation by the word Oaths and Covenants tell us that a good man may become un insinuater of Calumnies His two Conclusions pag. 55. from my words are 1. That they are no Churches that want this cementing Covenant Ans. They are none that are not so related by consent expressed by one way or other If you turn this into cementing Covenant when you had newly cited my express denial that express Covenanting was necessary ad esse it 's worse than Ceremony which you are already come to think lawful The 2d Concl. is The Churches that have it not in the most plain obliging way are defective spotted and ill-favoured because I said that the more express way is laudable ad bene esse As if all were called spotted and ill-favoured that want any thing laudable ad bene esse And will Christ take away his Churches spots and wrinkles Ephes. 6. when there were none And he saith This he calls the true and only way of the Churches Concord As if every word in the Book were called the true and onely Way It rather tendeth saith he to Discord and to make every single Minister a Pope or Church-tyrant and to make Churches Schismatical and traiterous Combinations dividing themselves from all other Churches and Christians c. Ans. 1. And yet he before said himself that the unwilling cannot be Pastor and Flock And is not this the same 2. Thus all Christ's Churches that ever I read of for 300 yea a 1000 Years are Stigmatized who still made expressed consent necessary 3. A Pope is one that claimeth Soveraignty over all the Church on Earth Doth he do so that taketh none for his Flock but Consenters 4. Which is liker Tyranny not to pretend to Government over any but Volunteers or to say I will Govern you whether you will or not 5. Is it Dividing and Schism to know my Flock as Consenters and not to take other Mens Flocks Sine literis Communicatâ—riis as oft as they will dwell or lodg in my Parish The words Oaths and Covenants are oft again so mentioned by him and his profession that he hath the Episcopal and Presbyterian on his side and other untruths so rashly uttered that I am heartily grieved for the success of his Temptation And whether he or I be Schismatical and differ from the Ancient Churches I refer the Reader to my Abridg. of Church History and to my Citations in my Book of Right to Sacraments My Preface to Mr. Rawlet's Book of the Sacrament confutes some of his Intimations I thank God that I am going to a more peaceable World FINIS