Selected quad for the lemma: christian_n
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A18620
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The state of the now-Romane Church Discussed by way of vindication of the Right Reuerend Father in God, the Lord Bishop of Exceter, from the weake cauills of Henry Burton. By H.C.
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Cholmley, Hugh, ca. 1574-1641.
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1629
(1629)
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STC 5144; ESTC S107813
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40,972
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128
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may appeare to them that will take the paines to reade it yea I dare bee bold to say the Church of Rome had not for many hundred yeares before the Councell of Trent so good a forme of doctrine as that Catechisme containeth which I speake not to justifie the Councell or the Catechisme in any errour comprehended therein but only to shew the beggery of the aduersarie of which this shall be sufficient His disorder shewes it selfe in three things First in not setting the state of the question Secondly in misplacing his owne arguments Thirdly in idle repetitions For the first There cannot be a greater fault in a Disputant then either to leave the question altogether vnstated or else to state it amisse for by this meanes it ordinarily fals out that the contention is nothing else but Andabatarum pugna the fight at blind man buffe as we say so as a man may misse ten times before hee hit once But of the two the former is the worse wherein this our aduersary offendeth If he say he tooke it as hee found it it will not excuse For I dare say his pretended aduersaries intended not a combat if they had they would haue depriued him of the occasion of much babbling And yet had he not listed to be contentious hee might haue picked such a state of the question out of the defenders writings as might haue dâ—â—led the edge of his quarrelsome humor for the state being set aright and with perspicuity it will easily appeare to which side the truth inclineth wherefore that I offend not in that wherein I finde him to be faulty I will doe that which he hath left vnperformed First then wee are to know that the words whereof the question consisteth are full of ambiguity For both the Church of Rome and a true Church and a Church truly visible haue many senses and significations The Church of Rome hath at least eight seuerall acceptions For sometimes it noteth the particular Diocesse of the Romane territory commonly called the particular Romane Church Sometimes and most vsually it comprehendeth all the national Churches which communicate with Rome in the same faith and vnder the same head the Pope commonly called the Catholique Romane Church Sometimes the Clergy of that Church is onely vnderstood by that title commonly called the Church representatiue Sometimes the people onely commonly called the Laity and of some the popular Church of Rome Sometimes the whole body of Clergy and Laity Sometimes the Papacy or Apostacy in that Church which is S. Iohns Babylon Sometimes the Elect in that Church still communicating with the Papacy which S. Iohn calls Gods people And sometimes the hidden Church which is in the Romane Church and yet communicateth not with her abominations which some call the Church in the wildernesse Againe A Church is said to bee true diuers wayes As first materially in that it consisteth of a people comprehended within the compasse of Gods Couenant of life and saluation Secondly formally in regard of frame and constitution Thirdly accidentally in regard of soundnes and outward communion Thirdly a Church is said to be truly visible for the true markes of a Church which it hath either in regard of it selfe within it selfe in which respect the Churches in persecution are truly visible though their enemies and others which are not of their number see them not Or in regard of the world abroad whether Christians or Infidels which know her assemblies And in this latter sense againe it is said to be visible either strictly and properly when the whole Church is visible at once and all together which is onely true of particular Congregations or largely and Synechdochically when the whole cannot bee visible together and at once but by peâ—cemeale and succession and so the Catholique Church here on earth may truly be said to bee visible Thus you see how great ambiguity there is in the sense of these few words The Church of Rome is a true and truly visible Church Now in the second place to apply all this to our present purpose Although diuerse men doe set the state of this question diuersly as may best serue for their owne priuate ends and purposes yet I will take it in the largest extent and as it may bee most fauourable for the Church of Rome Thus Whether the Catholike Church of Rome as it is called in opposition to the Dioces in regard of the whole body thereof compounded of Clergy and Laity bee still within the couenant of Gods sauing grace and haue such markes of that couenant still abiding in it that though properly at once and all together it cannot bee visible yet by peece-meale and successiuely it may truly be said so to be And so much for the state of the question and his first disorder His second point of disorder is in misplacing his owne arguments which I take not as if it were done ignorantly as not knowing what hee should haue done for hee excuseth himselfe for it supposing it superfluous to doe it but artificially for his best aduantage It seemes hee trusted more to the gentlenesse of his aduersaries and to his owne abilitie in opposing them then to the strength of his owne and his power to maintaine them and so brings them in as it were by way of ambuâ—â— But howsoeuer it hath pleased him to proceed I may not passe them ouer in this place without tryall vnless I would incurre the same suspition Let vs see therefore how hee proueth the negatiue His first argument wherein he placeth his greatest confidence is briefly propounded pag. 24. but more at large pag. 90. of his Aduertisement and it lyeth thus That Church which denieth yea accurseth the sauing faith of Iesus Christ vnto Iustification allowing only such a faith which can neuer saue a man but is a gracelesse faith separable from grace and which a man may carie with him into Hell that is an Apostatized Church vtterly falne away from Christ wherein no saluation is to be found or hoped for But the Church of Rome doth all this Ergo. To which I answer by denying all I deny the proposition because it is sophisticall The assumption because it is false and I need not then doubt to deny the conclusion The proposition is sick of that Sophisme which the Logicians call secundum plures interrogationes or propositiones that is when many Propositions are ioyned together in one whereof some are true some false as here are at least three One that the Church so bablingly described is an apostatised Church another that it is vtterly fallen away from Christ a third that no saluation is to be found or hoped for therein Of which the first onely is true and the rest notoriously false and against the Scripture for first to denie yea to accurse sauing Faith to allow the contrary is not a point of totall finall Apostasie vnles it be ioyned with malice and obstinacie and be the sinne against the holy Ghost
vseful to ioyne vs together again in one communion The former whereof is false as hath beene shewed in the former answers The latter dependeth vpon the scandals of the Author for the better vnderstanding whereof wee are to know That the reformed Churches neuer made a full and totall separation from the Church of Rome but onely partiall from her corruptions Non tam ab ea quam ab eius erroribus discessimus saith Iewel in his Apologie which is the common voice of all euen of Perkins himselfe in his Reformed Catholike who shâ—wes in euery head of doctrine how farre wee may and must hold communion with that Church and to this and no more hath the Reuerend Author respect in this assertion Now this Calumniator would make the world beleeue that his intent is to vse a meanes by help of this distinction to ioyne vs together againe in one communion in those things wherein we are already separated which as it was far from his heart and meaning for his whole Treatise tends to the contrary so indeed it were a vaine thing for him to endeuour it by this distinction For it would be all one as if hee should say As she is a visible Church wee may communicate with her in her corruptions But as she is Babylon we may not Which is indeede the folly which hee illustrateth by his two similitudes of societie with a strumpet and the deuill Thus you see the honesty and wisedome of the man and by this you may iudge of his zeale for the glory of God Author They haue not well heeded the charitable profession of zealous Luther Nos fatemur c. We professe saith hee that vnder the Papacie there is much Christian good yea all c. I say moreouer that vnder the Papacie is true Christianitie â—â—a the very kernell of Christianity c. BVRTON Luthers speech then was true But euer distingue tempora Luther wrote that before the Councell of Trent till which the Church of Rome had not altered the rule of Faith But now wee that liue after that Councell cannot say so for in that Councell the nut was crackt the kernell reiected yea anathematized and now they haue retained no more but the broken shell of a Church Answer It is a strange thing to see how men are enamoured of their owne conceits Qui amant ipsi sibi somnia singunt saith the Poet I warrant you if M. Burton were braied in a morter yet would not these toyes depart from him Huartus in his Tryall of wits reporteth of a Noble-mans Page in Spaine that being distracted of his wits imagined himselfe to be a King in which conceit he so pleased himselfe that when hee was cured hee was displeased with the Physitian that restored him to his right minde and so I doubt M. Burton will be with those that shew him the vanities of these his imaginations Well howsoeuer it be wee must be content and suffer him to abound in his owne sense till Time the Mother of Truth reueale his grosse mistakings and in the meane while lâ—t it bee sufficient answer to this long discourse that here is nothing but idle repetition of those things which haue beene already answered And hâ—â—herto we haue answered what hee hath obiected to what was said in the Booke of The old Religion concerning this argument Author Nothing can be so well said or done but may be ill taken BVRTON Now God forbid But is it well said or done to affirme that the Church of Rome is yet a true or a true visible Church Now let the Reuerend Author iudge indifferently hauing well weighed the former reasons whether we doe ill or no in taking his saying ill or whether wee had not reason to haue expected an ingenuous Palinodie or Augustine-like Retractation rather then such an Apologie which whether it be rather to be pitied then any vncharitablenesse in the Reader in taking such a saying ill let indicious charitie it selfe iudge Nor need we stretch the saying to imply that the Church of Rome is a true beleeuing Church Suffice it we except against any being yea or visibility of a true Church in the Synagogue of Rome Answer Some men are like Nettles which if a man handle softly they sting him but if hardly and roughly they are not felt Our Reuerend Antistes hauing but glanced at the zeale of some transported to such a detestation of the Romane church as if it were all error no church is deeply censured as if preferment had changed his note and taught him to speake more plausible language of the Church of Rome then eyther hee did or ought Hereupon he frames an Apologeticall milde and Christian Aduertisement to rectifie their iudgement lest their preiudice may turne more to their sinne then to his wrong What 's the issue Nothing but scorne for sooth they expected that the Reuerend Author well weighing the former reasons would haue made a pittifull Retractation and not such an Augustine-like Apologie Nay they will not acknowledge any the least mistaking in the matter yea those words Nothing can be so well said or done but may be ill taken which are the ordinary preamble to reconciliation are taken amisse and so proue themselues to be true through their frowardnesse What then is to be done Haec non succedit alia ineunda est via The Reuerend Author must vse them like hounds which the more a man beateth the better they loue him or like the wilde Irish which are most seruiceable when they are most slauishly vsed And so they shall haue their desire a Palinodie or Retractation which is That is repenteth him that hee hath dealt so fauourably with them For as for their reasons if they were not as bold and blinde as Bayard himselfe they would be ashamed to commend them to the iudgement of iudicious Charity Author Who sees not that visible referres to outward profession true to some essential principles of Christianitie neyther of them to soundnesse of beleefe BVRTON Is outward profession a sufficient marke of visibilitie for a Church This is none of those markes which the Church of England takes notice of a Church by Answer No Are not they the preaching of the word administration of sacraments and Ecclesiasticall discipline And what outward profession of Christianitie can any visible church make without these Outward profession therefore comprehendeth them all and so is a sufficient marke of visibilitie for a Church BVRTON Againe the Scripture calls them the Synagogue of Satan which call themselues Iewes and are not Answer True yet were they true Iewes in the flesh and outwardly Rom. 2. â—8 29. and so may a true visible Church of Christians be also BVRTON The Samaritanes sometimes professed themselues to bee of the Iewes religion and professed the worship of the Lord were they therefore a visible Church Answer The reason is not like because they neuer were in the Couenant of Gods grace but were aliens from the Common wealth of Israel