out of her secret place in the wildernes into the open sight of the world againe Ar. 16. 27. 79. 36. Contra Diuers times it was bold to chalenge preaching ministring of the sacrameÌ„tes yea and so boldly that it cost many of the chalengers their liues As Berengarius Brumo Marsilius de Padua Ioannes de Gaudano Ioannes Wickleue Waldo Ioannes Hus Ieronymus de Praga c. Ar. 77. The onely shew of contradiction is a falsification of of Bristow reporting my wordes Where all this while c. As though the Church hath alwaies bin so hidden the no members thereof might appeare But those wordes be of his own cauillous coÌ„positioÌ„ not of my writing But here beside the contradiction he noteth two thinges against me One that it cost not all these yea verie fewe of these there liues Neither did I say it cost al but many to iustifie this multitude Iohn Hus and Hierom are expressed beside many hundrethes that are conteined vnder c. The other matter is that neither these before appearing were secret protestans but open papistes Belike he would beare vs in hand that their open appearing conuersioÌ„ from popery was both in a moment of time But what if some of them were first papistes and afterward returned from popery to the catholike Church as Hus Hierom being conuerted by certaine Englishmen yet weere they not al such for Waldo was neuer any papist but a christian Catholike who seeing the horrible enormities of the Romish synagogue openly with many thowsands I renouÌ„ced her communion when she would not be reformed at his godly preaching 20 To bring her againe into open light Which is now brought to passe in our dayes Ar 16. 9â— Contra from the yere of our Lord 1414. being the time of the Councell of Constance the bright beames of the Gospell haue shined in the world Ar. 36. I see no signe of coÌ„tradictioÌ„ in these words except these propositioÌ„s be coÌ„tradictorie The bright beames of the sun do shine in the morning before the sun be ful risen the same is seene in opeÌ„ light after he is fully riseÌ„ aboue the earth The 21 The reuelation of Antichrist with the Churches flight into the wildernes was An. 607. when Bonifacius the 3. c. For vntill then the mysterie of iniquitie was preparing for his reuelation coÌ„ming for the generall defection Ar. 38. 36 16. Contra She hath not decaied there in the wildernes but beene alwayes preserued vntill God should reueile Antichrist which is now brought to passe in our dayes Ar. 16. The reuelation of the mystery of iniquitie was when Antichrist himselfe did opeÌ„ly shew that iniquitie which before was not throughly discouered God reueileth Antichrist when he openeth vnto men his horrible wickednes which to them were vnknowne A wonderfull contradiction of Antichrist reueiling himselfe and God reueiling Antichrist The 22 The Churches being in the wildernes was to be out of the sight knowledg of the wicked Ar. 27. 95. Contra speaking of the same space She was narrowly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a long seasoÌ„ Againe Although it were knowne to the papists yet it was in Italie when Marsilius of Padua preached in Fraunce when Waldo in England when Wickleue in Bohemia when Hus and Ierom of Prage did florish Why all these were well knowne to the papistes As though the Church could not be persecuted in her meÌ„bers except she were al knowneÌ„ or knowne to be the Church by her persecutors 23 A rule of the LogiciaÌ„s No man knoweth a relatiue except he know the correlatiue thereof Therefore though Christ had a body in earth yet could it be known of none but such as knew Christ the head of that body of whom the papistes were ignorant A 1. 80. Contra Our Church is now againe brought to light and knowledge of the world Ar. 96. So that now belike the papistes know Christ or the Logicians rule is verified onely for the time of the Churches being in the wildernes according as in other places he moderateth the matter saying We beleeue that the Church is not alwayes knowne to the wicked vpon earth Pur. 150. Ar. 77. 79 80. Whether the papistes know Christ or no certaine it is they will not acknowledg him who came into the world which was made by him and yet the world knew him not whom they would not acknowledge The papists cannot say they know not our Church although they will not acknowledge her to be the true Church and so my saying is true that our Church is brought into knowledg euen of the world of papistes The rules of LogiciaÌ„s are alway true but they are often ill kept by popish sophisters as the rules of coÌ„tradictioÌ„ here by Bristow 24 We beleeue that the vniuersal Church is not seene at all of men because it is in heauen Pur. 405. Ar. 95. 82. 74 80. Contra Our Church when it was most hidden might rightly be called Catholike that is vniuersall c. Here Cap. 10. Dem. 6 And whereas you say that no man aliue could name the place where it was you make an impudâ—nt lye For although it were vnknowen to the Papistes and enimies thereof yet was it knowen to the true members thereof I see no opposition except you will say there is no knowledge but by bodilie sight or that some members of the Church may not be seene in earth because Ierusalem the mother of vs all is aboue 25 And as for our Mother Church is no certaine place or coÌ„panie of men in any one place vpon earth but Ierusalem which is aboue is mother of vs all Pur. 377 Contra That no man aliue could name the place where it was is an impudent lie It was in Italie when Marsilius preached c. Vt suprà in contrad 22. Christe hath neuer wanted his spouse in earth though the blinde worlde when they see her will not acknowledge her to bee his spouse but persecute her as if she were an adultresse She was knowne to them that were her children The church of Christ is the nurse of Christians Ierusalem that is from aboue is mother of vs all Ar. 95 79 82. 106. Those are as great contradictions as these Bristowe is at Louane Bristowes foote is in his shooe The whole Church and mysticall body of Christ is in heauen therfore some members and parts therof can not be on earth 26 It is not called Catholike because it should be euery where For that it neuer was nor neuer shall be Ar. 95. Contra It should ouerflowe and fill all the world with righteousnesse Esai 10. That God hath an holie vniuersall congregation it is necessarie to beleeue It is dispersed in many places ouer all the world Ar. 73. 83. 80. It is not euery where and it is in many places be not contradictorie And the remnant may ouerflowe and fill the world with righteousnesse as Esai saith although it fill not euery place and person thereof nor
Neither doe you consider this that they cannot haue life which are expertes without part of the body and bloude of Christ seeing hee sayth himselfe Except you shall eate my fleshe and drinke my bloude you shall haue no life in you Agayne Contra Pelagianos Hypognost lib. 5. Si enim intelligeretis crederetis quare dixerit Dominus Non opus est san◠medicus c. If you did vnderstande you woulde beleeue wherefore our Lorde saide The whole neede not the Phisition but they that are sicke you would beleeue truely that they are not whole but wounded which are offered to be healed to our sauiour the Phisition at the station of Baptisme and that they shoulde not haue life except they eate the fleshe and drinke the bloud of him which is life For he him selfe hath said Except ye shall eate the fleshe of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud you shal not haue eternall life in you and hee which eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud hath eternall life Howe therefore doe you promise the life of the kingdome of heauen to infantes not borne againe of water and the holy Ghost Non cibatis carne atque non potatis not fedd with the flesh of Christ and which haue not dronke the bloud of Christ which is shedde for the remission of sinnes For it is his decree If any man bee not borne againe of water and of the holy Ghost he cannot enter into the kingdome of heauen For to enter into the kingdome of heauen is none other thing but to liue in a blessed life which remayneth for euer and euer Beholde hee which is not baptised and he also which is depriued of the vital meate and cup is diuided from the kingdome of heauen c. To the like effecte hee writeth Contra duas Epist. Pelag. ad Bon. lib. 4. cap. 4. Si omnibus c. If reconciliation by Christ be necessarie for all men sinne hath passed oouer all men by which wee were enimies that we haue neede of reconciliation This reconciliation is in the lauer of regeneration and in the body and bloude of Christ without the which no not infantes can haue life in themselues Also Contra Iulian lib. 3. cap. 11. deriding his pietie that infantes shoulde be damned for not doing that which they coulde not doe he addeth Vbi etiam ponis c. where also wilt thou place them because they shall lacke life seeing they haue not eaten the flesh of the Sonne of mā nor drunke his bloude Also de peccatorū meritis remissione lib. 1. cap. 20. a place cited by Bristowe but mingled with many intersections of his owne as his maner is After Augustine hath rehearsed the text Ioan. 6. Except ye eate c hee addeth Quid vltrà querimus c. What seeke wee further What can they aunswere to this except stubbornes doe stretch their striuing sinowes against the constancie of the manifest trueth Or dare any man say this also that this sentence pertayneth not to infantes and that they may without the participation of this body and bloud haue life in them c Likewise cap. 24. he saith Optimè Punici c. Best of all the Christians of Africa do call baptisme it selfe nothing else but health and the sacrament of the body of Christ nothing else but life Whence but of an auncient as I thinke and apostolike tradition by which they holde it ingrafted vnto the Church of Christ that without baptisme and participation of the Lordes table no man at all can come not onely not to the kingdome of God but neither to health life euerlasting For this also the scripture testifieth according to those thinges which wee haue sayde before For what other thing doe they holde which call baptisme by the name of health but that which is sayde hee hath saued vs by the lauer of regeneration and that which Peter saith so also doeth baptisme in like manner saue you What other thing also doe they holde which call the sacrament of our Lordes table life but that which is saide I am the breade of life which came downe from heauen and the breade which I will giue is my fleshe for the life of the worlde And except ye shall eate the fleshe of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud ye shall haue no life in you If therefore as so many and so greate testimonies of GOD doe consent that neither health nor life eternall without baptisme and the body and bloud of our Lord is to be hoped to any body in vaine without these is it promised to Infantes Furthermore if from health and life eternall nothing but sinnes do separate by these sacramentes nothing but the guilt of sinne is loosed in infantes These places of Augustine I haue rehearsed the more at large that the impudencie of the councell of Trent and of their poore patrone Bristowe might appeare whiche would excuse the errour of the auncient Churche and of the Bishoppe of Rome in those times in saying that albeit they vsed to minister the communion to infantes yet they did it not for any necessitie to saluation whereas the contrary by so many places and more then I haue rehearsed doth most manifestly appeare As for the practise whiche he confesseth of giuing that sacrament to infantes he saith is not against Probet seipsum c. Let a man examine himselfe c. Because that infantes may examine them selues by others whiche is a monstrous kinde of speache as well as beleeue and repent by others Here is one errour of Augustine defended by an other of his for infantes are not baptized for the faith of other men but because they are comprehended within the covenant of GOD to whome baptisme is no more to be denied then circumcision was to the infantes of the Iewes The Prophet sayeth Iustus c. The righteous man shall liue by his owne faith It is not the faith of other men that can procure life vnto vs. Neither is faith required of infantes before they can heare the worde of God which is the onely ordinary meanes by whiche faith commeth But infantes sayeth Bristowe bee in no mortall sinnes being newely baptized and therefore they neede no examination for feare least they should come vnworthily Saint Augustine confesseth that hee was in mortall sinne euen in his infancie Imbecillitas membrorum infantium innocens est non animus infantium The weakenesse of the members of infantes is innocent not the minde of infantes Afterwarde hee bringeth examples of enuie euen in an infant and at last concludeth Quod si c. And if it be so that I was conceyued in iniquitie and that in sinnes my mother in her wombe nourished me where I beseech thee my GOD when LORDE was I thy seruant where or when was I innocent By this you see there is no shorte time of mans life free from sinne Neither may you cavill that Augustine was not baptised in his infancie seeing he speaketh generally
forth against Purgatory when I came to it Bristow saith I plainly confesse the contrary to wit a memory for the deade I said that for them that kill them selues that Councell decreed that no commemoration should be made Ca. 34. what this coÌ„memoration iâ— I said it appeareth in the next Canon where they cal it the commemoration of the holy oblation that is they decreed that no communion should be celebrated in which being a commemoration of the sacrifice of Christ no mention of them that so died should be in their thankesgiuing as was vsed for them that died well Out of the 3. Toletan Cap 22. I shewed that it was decreed that the bodies of the faithfull should be buried only with singing of psalmes which must be thought sufficient for all Christians this I said excluded both prayers and oblations for the deade Bristow cauelleth that although in carrying the corps to the grane they vsed to singe psalmes yet they might haue prayer oblation for their soules in the Church I answere the councell thinketh singingof psalmes sufficient for the office of their buriall therefore prayer and oblation were thought needelesse But that they had prayer and oblation in Spaine for the deade he would proue by a saying of Augustine De cur pro mor. Cap. 1. where he saith the custome of the vniuersall Church is that in the prayers of the priest which are made to God at the altar the commendation also of the deade hath his place This commendation might be without prayer as in the olde liturgie the oblation for all the Patriarkes Prophets Apostles c. or if it were in speciall forme of prayer for the deade in Affrica it proueth not that it was in Spaine For Augustine speaketh of the vniuersall Church no farther then his owne knowledge or if it were in his time it might afterward be reformed in Spaine as diuers other errors were namely in that Councell of Toledo and other before it But Bristowe vrgeth me farther and saith I might as well say the Papists pray not for the deade because they carry the corps with psalmes But he will neuer see the litle worde only ioyned in the Canon to psalmes nor the sufficiency of the office for the buriall of all Christians Againe he demandeth of De profundis being a psalme Is it not a prayer for the deade trowe you I trowe no. Except all prayers that men make for them selues be prayers for the deade As for the buriall of papists claimed by ministers in England I thinke you belie them for they could be content you had all the obstinate papists in your bosome at Loueine quicke and deade But such as die among vs we are not nice in denying them buriall in the vsuall cemiteries although we communicate not with them in their life yet alwaies protesting that more seuere discipline were meete for them in their life and to be executed vpon them euen in their death after the example of Cyprians time although we think worse of them then Cyprian did of Victor I saide farther that the place of Possidonius speaking of the funerall of Saint Augustine proueth that the sacrifice offred for the commending of his bodies deposition was the sacrifice of thanksgiuing Here first Bristowe accuseth mine ignorance in antiquity that I vnderstand deposition for the putting of his body by death where it is the laying downe of it in the earth as Leuatio corporis is the taking vp of Saints bodies or reliques a worshipfull witnesse of antiquity For Cyrillus testifieth that they were not in his time taken out of the earth Lib. 10. Cont. Iulian. But marke how skillfully Bristowe expoundeth Possidonius saying The sacrifice was offred to God for the commending of his bodies deposition That is saith Bristowe expositione prima for the laying downe of it in the earth by burying Why might not his body be laide in the graue without a propiciatory sacrifice The second exposition is that by commending the deposition of his body which is the laying it downe in the graue he meaneth the commendation of his soule to God With such expositions hee may prooue what hee will out of the Doctors But to admitt this monstrous interpretation how agreeth it with popery or Augustines owne opinion that seing he was a perfect man died in persecution while his City was besieged the same day it was taken that any sacrifice should be offred for his soule seeing he himselfe saith it is iniury to pray for a Martyr De Verb. Ap. 517 But that prayers for the deade were vsed in Saint Augustines time and at the celebration of the Lords Supper it is not of me denied and therefore needed not of Bristowe to be proued But he will make me both answerer and replyer Because I graunt that S. Augustine prayed for his parent and yet taunt Allen for translating Memoriam sui a memorie of her to be a memorie for her as though she would haue her sonne to be a Chantrie Priest to sing for her First I say that if the Pope himselfe translate Memoriam sui a memorie for her the translation is false Secondly where he saith the sacrifice of our price was offered for her I shewed that before that so he called the celebration of the Lordes Supper vnderstanding it neuerthelesse not to bee the sacrifice it selfe that beeing once offered did perfectly redeeme vs but a memorie and thankesgiuing for the same as I shewed out of Augustine and other Doctours Pur. 316. and so forth in the rest vnto the leafe 327. Finally Bristowe citeth Augustine De Verb. Ap. Hom. 34. This as a tradition of our Fathers the whole Church doth obserue that for them which are departed in the communion of Christes bodie and bloud when at the healthfull sacrifice they are remembred in their place prayer is made and it is rehearsed that it is offered for them also I answere this oblation being generall for all that are departed in the faith of Christ can be but a sacrifice of thanksgiuing considering that the sacrifice of bread and wine as they called it in remembrance of the onely and insacrificable sacrifice of Christ as S. Augustine calleth his propitiatorie sacrifice coulde be no propitiation but a sacrifice of thankesgiuing or prosperitie or praise August Contra Faustum lib. 6. lib. 20. Cap. 18. 21. Contra aduers. Leg. Prophet lib. 1. cap. 6. 7. 19. 20. and many other places through out his workes Of particular Doctours Whether Saint Augustine doubted of Purgatorie That Saint Augustine allowed prayer for the dead Bristowe citeth many places but without neede seeing I conâ—esse it but that he neuer doubted of Purgatorie that is not proued thereby The Grecians at this day deny Purgatorie yet do they allowpraier for the dead Whereas I cited Saint Augustine Encher Chapter 69. It is not incredible that such a thing is done euen after this life and whether it be so or no it may be enquired And either
propterea mortem ab eis diuertisse pernicies námque id est carnis huius mors aduersus genus humanum propter primi hominis transgressionem surebat Terra enim â—s in terram reuerteris propter peccatum â—udiuimus Verùm quoniam per carnem suam Christus atrocem hunc euersurus erat tyrannum propterea id mysterium apud priscos obumbrabatur oâ—inis carnibus atque sanguine sanctificati Deo ita volente perniciem essugiebant Quid igitur O Iudaee turbaris praefiguratam veritatem iam videns our inquam turbaris si Christus dicit Nisi manducaueritis carnem filii hominis biberitis sanguinem eius non habebitis vitam in vobis cùm oporteret Mosaicis te legibus institutum priscis vmbris ad credendum perdoctum ad intelligenda haec mysteria paratissimum esse Neither let the Iewe of the dulnes of his minde thinke that we haue inuented such mysteries as were neuer heard of for hee shall see if he will search more attentiuely that the same thing hath beene alwaies done by figure since the time of Moses For what hath deliuered their auncestors from the plague of the Aegyptians when death raged against the first borne of the Aegyptians Is it not manifest that they being taught by the institution of God did eate the flesh of a Lambe and annoynted the postes and vpper dore postes with bloude and therefore death departed from them For destruction that is the death of this flesh did rage against mankinde for the transgression of the first man For because of sinne we heard Earth thou art and into earth thou shalt returne But because Christ by his flesh was to ouerthrow this cruel tyrant therefore that mysterie was shadowed to the old fathers and being sanctified with the flesh and bloud of the sheepe God so willing they escaped destruction Why therfore ô Iewe art thou troubled seeing the trueth alreadie prefigured Wherfore I say art thou troubled if Christ say Except ye eat the flesh of the sonne of Man drinke his bloud you shall haue no life in your selues whereas it behoued thee being instructed in the Lawe of Moses taught to beleeuing by the old shadows to be most readie to vnderstande these mysteries This place of Cyrill sheweth at large that he meaneth not by tast and touching or meate which is of alliance with vs the naturall bodie of Christ but the outward part of the sacrament namely the bread and wine for of the bodie of Christ there is neither taste nor touching bodily in the sacrament But euen as by eating of the Lambes flesh and anoynting of the bloude which prefigured the flesh and bloude of Christ and was a meate of kindred or alliance with them with whose taste and touching they were acquainted the Iewes were assured of their deliuerance so we by eating and drinking these outwarde signes of Christes bodie and bloude are assured of eternall life For you must note that he saith hoc ipsum the selfe same thing was alwayes done by figure from the time of Moses What was that namely that not onely our soules by the holy Ghost but also our bodies by externall sacramentes were brought to immortalitie But the same thing could not be done according to the Popish meaning before Christs incarnation therefore Cyrill is nothing lesse then of the Popish meaning The last witnesse is Tertullian de resur Carnis The flesh is washed that the soule may be clensed The flesh is oynted that the soule may be consecrated The flesh is signed that the soule may be defenced The flesh is shadowed by imposition of hande that the soule also may be illuminated The flesh is fedde with the bodie bloud of Christ that the soule also may be made fat of God They cannot therfore be parted in reward whom worke ioynesh We agree to that which Tertullian saith that our flesh is fed with that body bloud of Christ but not after a carnall or natural maner by receiuing the body and bloud at our mouthes c but after a spiritual manner as he himselfe sheweth in the same booke Nam quia durum intollerabilem existimauerunt sermonem eius quasi verè carnem suam illis edendam determinasse vt in spiritum disponeret statum salutis promisit spiritus est qui viâ—ificat For because they thought his saying hard and intollerable as though he had determined that his flesh was to be eateÌ„ of theÌ„ verily that he might dispose the state of saluation into the spirit he saide before It is the spirit that quickeneth In these words Tertullian counteth it the error of the Capernaites to thinke that Christ determined that his flesh should be eaten verily meaning that his fleshe was not to be eaten after a grosse and naturall manner with the mouth and teeth but with faith and heart Againe the argument of the resurrection of our bodies which he draweth of eating the bodie bloud of Christ cannot stande but with a spirituall eating thereof For what hope should all the fathers before the incarnation of Christ and so many thousand Christians as since that time haue neuer receiued the sacrament haue of the resurrection of their bodies if the vertue thereof were included in the popish imagined manner of eating Therfore Tertullian meaneth plainely that the externall sacraments which are receiued with the body beare the name oftentimes of the thinges whereof they are sacraments are arguments and assurances that saluation perteineth both to the bodie and to the soule and not that the bodie eateth and drinketh really the substance of Christs body and bloud vnder the formes of bread and wine any more then the body receiueth the holy ghost vnder the forme of water or imposition of hands c. What the supper of Christ is according to the doctrine of the Protestantes and Sacramentaries with a confutation thereof He affirmeth that we say Christ giueth to the bodie breade and wine but to the soule he giueth himselfe by saith spirit and vnderstanding This he maketh to be all the banket of the newe brethren Against this he inueyeth in a long chapter But either he is ignorant what we teach or rather he is not willing to shewe it that by rehersing it imperfectly he might haue more aduantage to dispute against it We beleeue that Christ giuing vnto vs bread and wine as visible seales of his inuisible grace giueth to the whole man his body and blood to be receiued of him by faith after a spiritual and wonderful maner passing al vnderstanding of man wherby we are assured that we are spiritually fed vnto eternal life eueÌ„ as by the seale of baptisme we are assured that we are spiritually and wonderfully washed from our sins born anew to be the sonnes of God We say not therefore the god giueth himselfe by faith spirit vnderstanding to our soules onely but he giueth himself vnto vs to be receiued by faith spirituallie But
and the same breade and wine must againe signifie the flesh and bloud of Christ although wee say that bread and wine in the sacrament are a seale and confirmation of that doctrine which Christe teacheth in this Chapter concerning the eating and drinking of his very true and naturall flesh and bloud which hath power to seede vnto eternall life them that eat and drinke it spiritually as there is none other way of eating and drinking thereof but by faith through the almightie working of Gods holy spirite The fourth Booke The preface of the fourth Book declareth that he purposeth in the same to shew that the words of the institution of the supper are proper and not figuratiue and so haue beene taken aboue 1500. And that they are proper he wili prooue by circumstances of the supper by conference of scriptures out of the olde and newe Testament by the commandement giuen to the Apostles to continue the sacrament vntil the second comming of Christ. Last of all he craueth pardon if he chaunce to say somewhat that was touched before affirming that his purporse is not so to doe although by affinitie of the argument desire to haue the thing remembred or by his owne forgetfulnesse he may be caused to fall into that default CAP. I. That no reason ought to be hearde why the wordes of Christes supper should nowe be expounded vnproperly or figâ—ratiuely And that the Sacramentarics can neuer be sure thereof Christ saith he in his last supper was both a testator and a lawe maker a testator in giuing his bodie and 〈…〉 oude and a lawemaker in commanding his Apostels 〈…〉 d their successours to continue the making of this 〈…〉 acrament This testament and law was soone after writ 〈…〉 n and published At which time and euer since the Church hath taken these wordes This is my bodie not 〈…〉 guratiuely but properly This last saying is vtterly 〈…〉 alse neither can it bee prooued by Ambrose Chryso 〈…〉 tome Augustine Theodoret whom hee nameth or any before or after their time for 600 yeares that euer the visible Sacrament was adored as the very bodie of Christ. If he haue any thing to shewe we shall haue it hereafter But it is a follie he saith vpon allegation of a thing so farre beyonde the memorie of man as the primitiue Church is to leaue the custome of the present Church which Christ no lesse redeemed gouerneth and loueth then he did the faithfull of the first sixe hundreth yeares I answere shortly that is not the Church of Christ but of antichrist which of late yeares hath taught the worshiping of the sacrament as God and man And whereas Sander replieth that then we shall haue no quietnes or end of controuersies if heretikes may appeale to the primitiue Church as the Trinitaries in Poolande and the Circumciders in Lithuania for these appeale to the primitiue Church and denie writings of Fathers and scriptures as the Protestant I answere the Protestants receiue all the canonicall scriptures by which all heresie may be condemned the autoritie or practise of the primitiue Church they alledge but as a witnesse of trueth which is sufficient prooued out of the worde of God Whereas he saith there was but one vniuersall chaunge to bee looked for in religion which was to be made by Christ I affirme the trueth of Christs religion to be vnchangeable but there was an vniuersall chaunge to be looked for from Christes religion to Antichrist which saint Paul calleth an Apostasie saint Iohn in the Reuelation the cuppe of fornication whereof all nations should drinke c. Yet was not this chaunge so vniuersal but that the seruants of God though in small number and credit with the world were preserued out of that generall apostasie and called out of Babylon as wee see it nowe come to passe by the preaching of the eternall Gospel then also foreshewed Apocal. 14. 17. 18. c. Another reason why we shoulde giue none eare to them that say the words are figuratiue is for that then wee shoulde doubt of our former faith and in doubting become men that lacke faith And why should you not onely doubt but refuse a false opinion beleeued contrarie to the worde of God But wee must tell Sander whether hee that gaue eare first to Berengarius and Zwinglius may giue eare to an other that shoulde say the Apostels had no authoritie to write holie Scriptures No forsooth for hee that gaue eare to Berengarius and Zwinglius did heare them because they brought the authoritie of scriptures which is the onely certaine rule of truth against which no question or doubt may be mooued As for the opinion of carnall presence if it had beene as generally receiued before Berengarius as Sander falsely affirmeth yet it was lawfull to bring it to the triall of holy Scriptures as we doe all the articles of our faith which are true not so much because they are generally receiued as for that they are manifestly approued by the authoritie of the holy scriptures But Sander will yet enter farther into the bowels of the cause before he heare what reasons caÌ„ be brought against the popish faith he saith the Sacramentaries cannot possiblie haue any grounde of their doctrine that the wordes of Christ in the supper are figuratiue either in respect of the worde written or the faith of all Christians or the glorie of God or the loue of Christ toward vs or the profite of his Church Yes verilie all these fiue respects moue vs to take the wordes of Christ at his supper to be figuratiue And First the word written by saint Luke and saint Paul This cuppe is the newe Testament in my bloude which wordes being manifestly figuratiue haue the same sense that the other rehearsed by Saint Matthewe and Saint Marke This is my bloude and that these wordes haue This is my bodie which are vsed by all fower Therefore by the written worde they are all figuratiue and signifie the deliuerie of a Sacrament or seale of the newe couenant established in the death and bloudshedding of the sonne of God Secondly the faith of all Christians for sixe hundred yeares and more after Christe hath beene sufficiently prooued to haue vnderstoode the wordes figuratiuely for a figure signe token pledge of the bodie and bloude of Christe and not for the verie substance contained in formes of breade and wine Insomuch that the verie glosse vppon the Canon Lawe De cons. dist 2. Cap. Hoc est hath these wordes Coeleste Sacramentum quod verè representat Christi carnem dicitur corpus Christi sed impropriè vnde dicitur suo modo sed non in veritate sed significante mysterio vt sit sensus vocatur corpus Christi id est significat The heauenly Sacrament which truely representeth the fleshe of Christ is called the bodie of Christ but improperly Whereof it is saide to bee after a peculyar manner but not in trueth of the thing but in
prayer he citeth out of Cyrillus of Ierusalem That the holy ghost woulde make the breade the bodie of Christ and the wine the bloud of Christ in Cate. myst 5. But this is merueilous that Sander saith hee is desired so to doe of the priest who were not otherwise able to make so great a mysterie if Christ had not commaunded him to make this thing But I replie if Christ had commaunded the priest to make his bodie what neede he desire another to make it And in that the holy ghost must make it it is certaine that Christ commaunded not the priest to make it Out of Dionysius the counterfeit Areopagite hee vrgeth the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to signifie a making or working of holie thinges which may well stande with making and working of the sacrament although there bee no making of Christes hodie commaunded To lustinus we answered before in the 〈◊〉 circumstance But Irenaeus hath these wordes Quando mixtus calix c. when the Chalice mixed with water and the breade being broken taketh the worde of God then the Euâ—harist of the bodie and bloude of Christ is made It is made saieth Sander Yea verily but it is one thing to say the Sacrament of Christes bodie and bloude is made another thing to say his naturall bodie is made But what is the Eucharist with you Papistes the verie bodie and bloude of Christ. Then the sense of Irenaeus wordes must be thiâ— the verie bodie and bloude of Christ of the verie body and bloud of Christ is made which were more then ridiculous Tertullian against Marcion saith lib. 4. Acceptum panem c. The breade which he had taken and distributed to his disciples hee made it his owne bodie Loe saith Sander he made the breade his bodie Yea sir but within six wordes following he sheweth howe breade was called his bodie namely because it was a figure of his bodie Ambrose de iis qui mysteriis init saith Cap. 9. Sacramentum c. This sacrament which thou receiuest is made by the worde of Christ. And hoc quod conficimus corpus ex virgine est This thing which we make is the bodie taken of the virgine But let Ambrose expounde himselfe in the words following soone after vera vtique caro Christi quae crucifixa est quae sepulta est verè ergo Carnis illius sacramentum est c. It was the true flesh of Christ which was crucified which was buried wherefore it is truely a Sacrament of that flesh Our Lorde Iesus himselfe ciâ—eth out This is my bodie before the blessing of the heauenly wordes it is called another kinde after consecration the bodie of Christ is signified He himselfe calleth it his bloude before consecratino it is called another thing after consecration it is called bloude Likewise when Hierom in Ep. ad Hel. saith that Priestes doe make the bodie of Christ with their holy mouth hee meaneth the sacrament of his bodie as he saith immediately after â—hat we are become Christians by them meaning by the â—acrament of baptisme ministred by them Against Iouinian lib. 2. hee saith that Christ offered wine in typo sanguinis sui in token of his bloude and the whole sacrament he calleth mysterium quod in typo suae passiâ—nis expressit the mysterie which he expressed in the token of hâ—â— passion Out of Chrysostome are cited diuerse places al which are rather against Sanders making then for it as these The priestes make the oblation which Christ gaue to his disciples in 2. Tim. 2. He meaneth the sacrament vnproperly called of the old writers an oblation or sacrifice Againe The sacraments are begun and made perfect by the priest de sacer lib. 3. Againe Non homo est qui corpus c. It is not a man which maketh the bodie and bloude of Christ but the same Christ which was crucified for vs c. Yet Sander saith Christ saying Hoc facite commaunded men to make his bodie Aug. Cont. Faust Manich. lib. 20. cap. 3. saith that our breade chalice is made mysticall vnto vs not borne made I say Therefore hoc facite signifieth make this thing I deny the argument especially vnderstanding this thing for the naturall bodie of Christ. The same Augustine contra Adimantum saith Our Lorde doubted not to say This is my bodie when hee gaue a signe of his bodie Wherefore if hoc facite be make that thing which Christ gaue it is make a signe of his bodie The rest of the authorities of Theophilact Damascene Euthymius Anselmus c. I will not stande to rehearse because they being late writers speake often more neere vnto the Popish heresies And some of them were ranke papists yet in this matter for the signification of hoc facite make this thing not one of them speaketh directly as Sander defendeth But that the olde writers vse often the worde of making the bodie of Christ the sacrament c. It proueth not that they vnderstoode facere in Christs wordes to make one substance of another although by doing as Christ commaunded such a bodie as he spake of and such a sacrament was made CAP. XIIII What these wordes doe signifie For the remembrance of me and that they much helpe to prooue Christes reall presence vnder the formes of breade and wine To the obiection that the remembrance of a man differeth from the man himself Sander answereth that Christ said not onely do this but also make this thing because facere signifieth both to doe and to make and the remeÌ„brance of Christ is the shewing of his death as S. Paul teacheth by facte and by making Christs bodie vnder diuerse kinds to shew the separation of the bodie from the soule the breaking and eating of it in signe sheweth the breaking of it on the crosse c. To this I reply that facere can haue but one signification at one time and seeing facere in commemorationem is expounded by S. Paul as Sand also confesseth to shew the Lords death which is by doing not by making except you meane the making of the sacrament hoc facite is still do this thing In deede the verie ministratioÌ„ of the sacrament according to Christs in stitutioÌ„ is a preaching of the Lords death but it followeth not therof that the Lord is present whom the Apostle by implication saith to be absent for he addeth vntill he come which were not properly saide if in person he were present but rather vntill he be seene which is there present inuisible To come is to remoue from one place to another place where the remouer was not before he came But Sander saith the presence of the benefactor is the best meane to make his good deede remembred as the scarre in a mans face being seene is the best remembraÌ„ce of his fighting for his friends defence I haue often shewed the vanitie of this kinde of reasoning by which it shoulde followe that
bene proued by a number of them Iohn the 〈◊〉 being condemned for denying the immort 〈…〉 of the â—â—ale Other Popes of our time calling the Gospel a fable of Christ requiring there pork in despite of God openly blaspheming his maiestie c. As for the Godhead of Christ and honor due to his â—anhoode in respect of the vnitie of person is nedelesse â—boâ— to prooue the adoration of the Sacrament except â—s adunation to the sacrament in one person bee first â—ooued But Esay saith Chap. 2. The Lorde aboue shall bee â—xalted in that daye and Idols shall be vtterly destroiâ—d It is verie true where the Lorde is exalted but that 〈◊〉 not in all places of the worlde neither euer was but â—nely where God hath set vp his true Church which is â—is kingdome Therefore all the prophecies cited by â—ander Ier. 30. Ez. 30. Mich. 1. Zoph 2. Zac. 13. Psa. 9. an â—undreth more that are of the abolishing of Idols and idoâ—atrie are to be vnderstood abolishing theÌ„ sroÌ„ the true â—ingdom Church of Christ not out of all the world â—r out of the kingdome of Antichrist and companie of â—alse Christians as Sander woulde beare fooles in hand And I meruell if any be so foolish to be persuaded that there can be no Idolatrie coÌ„mitted in worshipping that for God and Christ which is a meere creature But Saint Augustin writeth in lib. de diuin dâ—m That it was forespoken of the Prophets that the Gentiles should worship one God the false Gods whome they worshipped before being cast out S. Aug. saith truely of the Gentils they are become true Christians But were al the Gentils such froÌ„ the comming of Christ vnto S. Augustines time which was 400. yeres or be al the gentiles such at this day yea were there not of theÌ„ that were called Christians worshippers of Images in S. Augustines time Doeth he not write De moribus eccl Cath. lib. 1. Chap. â—4 of false Christians Nouimultos esse sepulchrorum picturarum adoratores I knowe there are manie of theÌ„ which are worshippers of sepulchres and pictures See then if Sander haue any shame to cite Augustine for his purpose which is that no Idolatrie can bee committed since Christes time especially of them that are called Christians Beside Augustine hee abuseth the name of Athanasius de inâ—ar verb. Vbi nominatur c. Where Christ or his faith is named thence al Idolatrie is driuen yâ— deceitful guiles of the diuel are detected made open Loe saith Sand 〈…〉 name of Christ putteth away all Idolatrie Yea sir where it 〈◊〉 truely professed beleeued not wheresoeuer it is â—ounded heard with the outward eares This therfore proâ—â—â— not the contrary but Papistes worshippers of bread 〈◊〉 yea of stockes stones be Idolaters as well as the barbâ—rous people in the new Indies where Christ Christiâ—â— faith is named but not imbraced nor beleued oftentiâ—â— of the namers theÌ„selues But Ie. in li. 2. in Esa ca. 4. affirmeâ—â— Post c. after the coÌ„ming of Christ al idols to haue holdâ—â— their peace If Sand. were not a proud asse which disdâ—â—neth to learne I would teach him that Ierom speaketh oâ—â— oracles answeres which by the diuel are giuen at diuâ—â— idols al which not only IeroÌ„ a christiaÌ„ but also Plutaâ—â—â— an heathen man affirmeth froÌ„ that time to haue ceased and not to haue spoken any more But Hierom was neue◠〈◊〉 impudent to affirme that there could be no idolatry coÌ„mâ—â—ted since the time of Christ. Yet San. affirmeth that lightly nâ—â— so much as any heretik yet hath professed to worshipâ—â—â— artificial Idol made with the hands of maÌ„ You may se hâ—â— lightly this man is seene in the old writers or els how impudently he disseÌ„bleth that which he knoweth First Simâ—â— Magus accounted the father of al heretikes did set forth the Images of himselfe and of Helena his harlot to be worshipped of his disciples euen as the Images of Iupiter Minerua c. were among the Gentiles Epiphaniâ—â— lib. 1. Tom. 2. praefat and Augu. Haer. 1. Secondly Carpâ—crates made Images priuily of Iesus and of Paul and 〈◊〉 Homer and of Pythagoras and did offer incense vnto them and worship them Epiph. and Aug. Lib. 6. Thirdly the Gnostikes had Images painted in colours and some of golde and siluer and other matter which they saide were the Images of Iesus made vnder Pontius Pilate wheÌ„ he liued among men Epiph. Haer. 27. Fourthly the Melchisedechians which were in Arabia Petraea Robam and Edom worshipped the Image of Moses which they made Epip contra Melch. Haer. 55. Finally the Collyridians committed Idolatrie vnto the Virgine Marie Epipha cont Collyrid Haer. 79. Beside so many false Christians as in S. Augustines time worshipped pictures sepulchres And to omit them that worshipped Images in France whoÌ„ Gregorie vnto Serenus affirmeth to haue committed Idolatrie although he disallowed the breaking of the Images But Papists are not so insensible saith Sand. to worship bread made with the bakers hand why not as well as to worship metal wood stone in your images yet Chrysostome saith there were fewe cities left in his time in which Idolatrie was vsed there is no citie in Christendome where the sacrament hath not ben worshipped saith Sander for so many hundreth yeares Yes sir where the Waldenses were in Calabria in France Boëmia other places your bread worship preuailed not And God be thanked there are nowe many hundred cities in which that Idolatry is not openly coÌ„mitted except it be by stelth in corners so no doubt but heathenishe Idolatrie was coÌ„mitted in most cities in the world in Chrysostomes time considering what number there were of heathen men in all places Therefore where Sander saith that all Christians for euer haue worshipped the sacrameÌ„t as that very body blod of Christ is vtterly false seeing it is not much aboue 300. yeres since Pope Honorius made the decre of that kind of worship which Sand. defendeth which decree had ben in vain if al ChristiaÌ„s for euer had worshipped it But Sand. at length asketh if ther be no idolatry in ChristendoÌ„ he answereth to much of inward idolatry but no outward idolatry at al. Inward idolatry he couÌ„teth couetousnes heresies so was Luther the first idolater of our age theÌ„ Zuinglius theÌ„ Caluin the sacramentarie english idol the vanitie of which assertion to haue cited is abundanly to haue coÌ„futed He concludeth that to say that the blessed sacrament of Christ is an Idol seemeth necessary to employ that Christ instituted an Idol This implicatioÌ„ must come froÌ„ such a senseles Idol as Sand is for otherwise they that haue eies see eares heare can easily conceiue that an holy sacrameÌ„t instituted by god by abuse of Idolaters may be turned into an Idol as was the brasen serpent therefore was broken by Ezechias Neither did Christ giue any occasion of Idolatrie by his wordes in the
supper Bertrame whome Sander affirmeth to be but suspected in his booke De corpore sanguine Domini which is extant for euery man to reade plainly determineth against the Popish reall presence and transubstantiation And whereas Sander offereth a large scope as he saith that we should name one bishop in the whole earth who before the time of Berengarius reprooued the teachers of the reall presence as heretikes I can name none so conueniently as Aelfricke sometime Archbishop of Canterburie with al the Saxon bishops in his time who set foorth an Homily to be read on Easter day vnto the people and allowed certeine Epistles of the saide Aelfricke in which is conteined a plaine and manifest denyall of that bodily presence for which wee striue and an approbation of the onely spirituall manner of presence which wee teache If Sander will cauill that although they so taught they reproued not the teachers of the reall presence as heretikes I referre it to the iudgement of all indifferent men how they would haue accused any man that obstinately should haue maintained a doctrine contrarie to their common beliefe and consent Howe the fathers of the primitiue Church beleeued concerning the blessed Sacrament namely S. August whom Sander half suspecteth and yet saith he is not against them because his communion is not forsaken it hath ben plentifully and often shewed is not here to be repeted But Hilarie saith it is the profession of our Lorde the faith of the Church that the Sacrament is truely the flesh and bloud of Christ therefore there is no place left of doubting Certeinly we doubt not but to the worthy receiuer the Sacrament is the same which Christ affirmeth it to be after a spirituall manner but wee are out of doubt that our Sauiour Christ reteining the nature of his bodie would not make the same insensible impalpable incircumscriptible c. It is not therefore the presence nor the reall presence rightly vnderstood but the bodily presence which we denye and no man affirmed for sixe hundred yeres after Christ except perhaps Marcus the heretike that changed the colour of the wine by inchantment that it might bee thought that Christe had dropped his bloud into his chalice as Irenaeus testifieth lib. 1. Cap. 9. Likewise we aunswere to Epiphanius we belieue the wordes of Christ to be true which by grace hath giuen vs bread and wine to bee his bodie and bloud spiritually euen as the water of baptisme to be regeneration which similitude Epiphanius vseth euen as he doth this of the supper to shewe that wee are truely made according to the image of God not by nature but by grace Epiph. Anch. But Sander hath a pleasant similitude to shewe that the Papistes are not gone from the Apostles and auncient fathers because a man liuing in these dayes should be vniustly charged with treason for disobeying of William the Conquerour or being the sonne of him that disobeyed William the Conquerour when he answereth that he liued not vnder that king and al his ancestours in their dayes were obedient to such kings vnder whome they liued A worshipfull similitude But if William the Conquerour made a lawe that whosoeuer committeth these things or these things shal be deemed a traitour and it is prooued that thou hast committed some of them what will the former answere auaile thee it is the doctrine and not the persons of the Apostles and auncient fathers from which you are accused to haue departed But which of the successours of the Apostles saith Sander sent Berengarius to preach that doctrine whereof they helde the contrary I aunswere so long as Berengarius taught that doctrine which the Apostles themselues commaunded to bee taught he needed no speciall commission from them that were departed from the Apostles doctrine to reprooue them for he was sent of God who opened his eyes to see the trueth and their errours that sitting in the chaires of the Apostles taught a doctrine contrarie to the faith of the Apostles But Sander will at once prooue that all citizens of the house of God through the world witnessed with one voice and in one worde that they beleeued the bodily presence For the olde custome was at the wordes of consecration and at the time of the receiuing the Sacrament which was saide to be the bodie and bloud of Christ to say Amen that is to affirme it was so And this Sander prooueth by manie witnesses which is needelesse for wee knowe it as well as he But this prooueth no carnall nor bodily manner of presence except Sander can proue that it was tolde them this to bee the body and bloud of Christ without any figure really corporally present vnder the onely shapes of bread and wine as they teache nowe Yes saith Sander a figuratiue speach soundeth otherwise then we must thinke whereto Amen must not be answered What shall wee then answere to these wordes of Christ This cuppe is the newe testament in my bloud are not these the wordes of consecration also But what was meant by Amen and what the Sacrament is S. Augustine teacheth serm ad infantes Si ergo vos estis corpus Christi membra mysterium vestrum in mens a positum est Mysterium Domini accipitis ad quod estis Amen respondâ—tis respondendo subscribitis Audis ergo corpus Christi respondes Amen Esto membrum corporis Christi vt verum sit Amen tuuâ— c. Therefore if you be the bodie receiue the Lordes mysteries whereunto you are You answere Amen and by so aunswering you subscribe Be thou a member of the bodie of Christ that thy Amen may be true These wordes declare that not the reall presence was aduouched by the worde Amen but the spirituall participation of the mysticall body of Christ by the faithfull But Leo Ser. 6. de Ieiu 7. mensis saith Sic sacrae c you ought so to communicate of the holy table that ye dout nothing at all of the trueth of the body and bloode of Christ for that thing is taken in the mouth which is beleeued in faith And Amen is in vaine answered of them who dispute against that which is receiued In these sayings Sander vrgeth that it is receaued with the mouth as though Leo did meane that whatsoeuer was beleeued in faith was receaued in the mouth yet the worde is are sumitur it is receaued by the mouth which is not all one with in the mouth For the bodie of Christ may be receaued by the mouth as by an instrument that receaueth the visible sacrament thereof and yet the body is not receaued into the mouth But Leo speaketh manifestly against the Manichees which denied that Christ had a true bodie exhorting Christians not to doubte thereof for except they beleeued faithfully that Christ had a true bodie they coulde not with their mouth receaue a sacrament of that body which they beleeued not to bee nor truely answere Amen when they disputed against the
in the vnitie of his body that is in the couiunction of Christian members the Sacrament of which body the faithful communicating are accustomed to receiue from the altar he is to be said truely to eate the body of Christ and to drinke the bloud of Christ. De ciui Dei li. 21. Cap. 25. In the same Chapiter he apposeth Sacramento tenus reuera manducare corpus Christi to eate the body of Christ as far as the Sacrament and to eate the body of Christ in very deede Ergo they that eate the Sacrament onely eate not the body of Christ in very deede Therefore Christs gift is not onely in the Sacrament Iewel The fathers of the old law receiued the selfe same body that is now receiued of the faithfull Aug. de vtil pâ—n Cap. 1. Sander Augustine saieth the selfe same spirituall meate that is Christ by faith but not the same corporall meate which is the body of Christ Tract 11. in Ioan. Fulke Augustine saith not that the body of Christ is our corporall meat but that which answereth in proportion to Manna as a corporal meat namely bread and wine Tract 26. Sander But Tract 11. he saith Quid est Manna what it Manna I am saith Christ the liuing breade that came downe from heauen Fulke It followeth immediately Manna accipiunt fideles the faithfull receiue Manna therefore hee meaneth not Manna in this place for the corporall meate but for the bodye of Christe whiche is spirituall meate Sander But he sayeth further It is knowen what God had rained from heauen And knowe not the Catechumeni what Christians take Let them blush because they knowe not Let them passe ouer by the redde sea Let them eate Manna that euen as they haue beleeued in the name of Iesus so Iesus may commit him selfe to them Therefore Iesus is eaten bodily of vs after baptisme Fulke I denye the argument except Manna be Iesus bodily If Manna be spiritually taken then Iesus is eaten in the Sacrament as he was in Manna which Sander confesseth to be onely spiritually Sander But Catechumeni might so eate Christ that is spiritually Fulke They might not eate Christ in the Sacrament before they were baptized and therfore they were ignorant of that mysterie Iewell Euery faithfull man is made partaker of the body and bloud of Christ in baptisme whiles he findeth that vnitie which is signified by the Sacrament Therefore the faithfull eate Christes bodie otherwise then in the Sacrament Apud Bedam 1. Cor. 10. Sander They are not partakers really but onely in the Sacrament of the supper in which if the body were not really present hee that is baptized shoulde not at all be partaker of the Sacrament of Christes supper because hee is not partaker of bread and wine but onely is made a member of that mysticall bodie which in the Sacrament is signified Fulke Beda knewe no such distinction of really spiritually Neither doeth he saye they are partakers of the Sacrament of the supper but of the bodie and bloud of Christ in baptisme wherefore I knowe not whereof Sander dreameth Sander Augustine saith of heretikes and schismatikes de ciuit Dei lib. 21. Cap. 25. They are not in that bonde of peace which is expressed in that sacrament The bond of peace expressed is not the wheaten cornes molded in one loaf but the bodie of Christ present really vnder the formes of bread and wine Fulke Alack poore sophistrie Christ is the bonde of peace but the bonde of peace is expressed in the externall Sacrament of breade and wine Although the wheaten cornes are not the bonde of peace expressed yet the bonde of peace is expressed by the wheaten cornes c. Sander Looke in my 5. booke Cap 5. Fulke Looke there for an answere CAP. V. Sander Master Iewell hath not replyed well touching the Capernaites Harding If Christ in S. Iohn had spoken tropically the Iewes and disciples who were vsed to figures would not haue said This is an hard saying Iewell His reason hangeth thus The Capernaites vnderstoode not Christ ergo his bodie is really in the Sacrament Sander No sir They vnderstoode Christ to speake without parables Christs wordes pertaine to the sacrament therefore his bodie is really in the Sacrament They vnderstood what Christ promised but they beleeued it to be either not possible or not conuenient Fulke The maior minor of your mishapen syllogisme are both false Augustin in Ps. 33. Exhorruerunt sermonem c. They were afraide of his speache not vnderstanding they thought our Lord Iesus Christ had spoken some hard thing c. Sander S. Augustine saith they vnderstoode not because they beleeued not in Ioan. Tr. 27. Fulke What though infidelitie were the cause of their not vnderstanding yet he saith Non intelligeÌ„do scandalizati sunt By not vnderstanding they were offended ergo you saide falsely they vnderstoode what he promised And much lesse vnderstoode they the meane howe it should be perfourmed Iewel He said The bread which I will giue c. of spirituall eating It is the spirite that quickeneth Vnderstand ye my words spiritually saith Augustine Sander See in my third booke Cap. 19. 20. Fulke See the answere in the same places Iewel Ye shal not eat saith S Augustine with your bodily mouth this bodie that you see c. I giue you a certeine Sacrament Sander Of this place I haue spoken at large lib. 6. Cap. 2. lib. 3. Cap. 14. Fulk And I haue sufficiently answered in the same places Sander Beside this great dissimulation of S. Augustines meaning Master Iewel hath false translations Fulke Sander heth foolish quarels master Iewell giueth the sense faithfully Iewel We haue a spirituall mouth taste eyes eares as Basil Leo Origen Tertullian say Christ is to be digested by faith he is the bread of the minde not of the bellie to beleeue in him that is to eat the liuing bread therefore Christs meaning is spirituall not reall Sander The fondest kind of reasoning in the world Christ is eaten both spiritually bodily Fulke Al these fathers meane only spiritual eating excluding all other carnal grosser maners of eatings Sander Doth not Tertullian say The flesh is fedde with the bodie bloud of Christ to the ende the scule may be made fatt of God Fulke Tertullian speaketh manifestly of the externall Sacraments which haue the name of the things signified as of the signes of baptisme impositioÌ„ of haÌ„ds c. Iewel Chrysostom will not suffer this euasion who saith to vnderstand carnally is to vnderstand plainly as the thinges be vttered and to thinke vppon nothing else Sander We vnderstand not so For wee seeing the forme of breade thinke vpon the bodie of Christ. Fulke But what did the Capernaites see whose vnderstanding you defende And what other thing do you vnderstand then is vttered in the wordes Iewel S. Augustine saith The saying of Christ is a figure or manner of speach commanding vs to be partakers
The vnion is made not onely by faith but by the thing it selfe which is neither water breade nor wine nor faith but onely the reall substance of Christs body and blood Fulk That is not the question but of the manner of the mingling whether it be corporall or spirituall Sand. Chrysostome nameth changing sacrifice hand mouth tongue seeing touching eating hauing within vs therefore the manner of mingling must be corporall Fulk Chrysostome nameth the hande breaking the fleshe in peeces the mouth filled with spirituall fire the tonge made redde with this wonderfull bloode as you your selfe confesse therefore he speaketh not properly but figuratiuely of these instrumentes of the body which outwardly receiue the sacrement of so high holy a coniunction the manner of working whereof is wonderfull and not done with handes mouth tong c. of men Sand. Prooue that where Christ dwelleth by faith that such dwelling is made by the thing it selfe not by faith onely Fulk The word is be come flesh and dwelled in vs being verily Immanuel God with vs therefore by the thing it selfe and not by faith only he dwelleth with all the faithfull Sand. Prooue that wee are made Christes fleshe in baptisme by the bodie of Christ for else the vnion of the sacrament will be more reall Fulk By baptisme wee are buried with Christe vnto death c. And what purgeth vs in baptisme but the bloode of Christe which purgeth vs from all â—innes San. Prooue either that wee are vnited to faith it selfe and vnto baptisme it selfe or else the vnion made in this sacrament will farre passe the ioyning which is in the other Fulk Wee are neither vnited to faith baptisme or to the Lords supper but to Christ by faith and by the sacraments Sand. Here wee are vnited to the same body wherewith we are fedde which wee see and touch but there wee bee not vnited to the water wherewith wee are washed Fulk Neither are you here vnited to anye thing that you see or touch excepte you will bee vnited to bread and wine or to the accidentes of them which only you holde remaine to be seene and touched In baptisme we are vnited to Christ whome we put on with whome we die are buried and rise againe being washed with his bloode in our soules as our bodies are washed with cleane water Sand. You say that wee are made Christ by baptisme but prooue that Christ is there deliuered in sensible thinges to your handes to your mouth to your tongue so that you may haue him within you as it is done in the supper These phrases you must prooue to be verified by faith and baptisme if you will haue as reall a ioyning made by faith or by baptisme as is made by the sacrament of the altar Fulk Saint Augustine saith wee are made Christe The phrases that Chrysostome vseth alluding to the externall manner of participation of that sacrament which is by hande mouth and tongue are not necessarie to prooue that the vnion made by the one sacrament is as reall as by the other when there bee phrases of equall force as the phrases of ingraffing putting on dying and being buried with him washed with his bloode c. Iew. As the breaking of this bread is the partaking of the bodie of our Lorde euen so the breade of idols is the partaking of Diuels and if wee eate one bread with idolaters we are made one body with them Primasius in 1. Cor. 10. Sand. You falsifie the wordes of Saint Paul that which he spake of the substance of bread you assigne to the action of breaking Fulke You slaunder him for although he vse the tearme of breaking of bread yet bee assigneth not the communication to the action of breaking but to the thing that is broken as in the other parte of the similitude you might see if malice had not made you blinde Euen so the bread of idoles c. Sand. Primasius tooke not the name of breade materially for wheaten bread but for all kinde of meate and drinke which the idolaters vsed therefore he meant the bread which we breake is no materiall breade but a kinde of meate which Christe hath prepared for vs. Fulk Primasius tooke bread materially for wheaten bread although not onely for wheaten breade Therfore he tooke the breade which we breake for wheaten bread for what else is broken Againe the argument is nought hee tooke bread of idolaters generally for all meates by synecdoche the figure Therefore hee taketh the bread of Christians specially for one kinde of meate which is no bread at all But howe answere you Primasius saying there is the same vnion betweene diuels or idols and them that eate their bread which is betweene the body of Christ and Christians which eat the bread which is broken The participation of the one cannot be bodily ergo not the other CAP. XXII Sand. It is proued that S. Hilarie thought the body of Christ to be really in the sacrament Hard. If the word be verily made flesh and we receiue verily the word being flesh in our Lords meat how he is to be thought not to dwell in vs naturally who both hath taken the nature of our fleshe nowe inseparable to himselfe in that he is borne man and also hath mingled the nature of his owne flesh to the nature of euerlastingnes vnder the sacrament of his flesh to bee receiued of vs in the communion Hil. de Trin. lib. 8. Iew. Master Harding hath not hitherto founde that Christes body is naturally or corporally in the sacrament Sand. You vse many shiftes whereof this is the last which I will nowe declare against your dissembling assertion Fulk Belike then D. Harding had not found that you are faine to seeke for him Iew. Against the Arrians Hilarius reasoned thus Christ is really ioined vnto the father as vnto vs but Christ is ioyned to vs by nature therefore Christ is ioyned to God the father by nature That Christ is ioyned to vs by nature he proueth it thus We are ioyned to Christ by faith that is by the nature of one faith and that is to say naturally Sand. He falsifieth S. Hilarie for he hath not the word naturally Fulk You slander him most impudently for he doth expounde the wordes of Hilarie Per vnius fidei naturam by the nature of one faith to be all one as if he had said naturally Sand. S. Hilaries intent is onely to shewe that faithfull men are one among themselues by nature of faith and not how Christ is ioyned to vs by that faith which he hath not at al for he answereth the argument of the Arrians grouÌ„ded vpon that place Act. 4. of the multitude of the beleeuers there was one soule and one heart Fulk As though there coulde bee anye vnitie of the belieuers among themselues but as they are al ioyned in one by Christ Christ to theÌ„ whoÌ„ blasphemously Sander affirmeth to haue had no faith froÌ„ the instant of his