Selected quad for the lemma: christian_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
christian_n	bind_v	church_n	communion_n	1,436	5	9.0889	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A27068	Whether parish congregations be true Christian churches and the capable consenting incumbents, be truly their pastors, or bishops over their flocks ... : written by Richard Baxter as an explication of some passages in his former writings, especially his Treatise of episcopacy, misunderstood and misapplied by some, and answering the strongest objections of some of them, especially a book called, Mr. Baxters judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies, as by law required, and another called, A theological dialogue, or, Catholick communion once more defended, upon mens necessitating importunity / by Richard Baxter.	Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.	1684 (1684)	Wing B1452; ESTC R16512	73,103	142

deny the Parish Pastors the● deny them nothing hereby essential to thei● office All that can with any colour be said is that the Law now seems to be on these mens side by requiring Reordination But 1. The Law-makers profess to establish the Church and not to change it to another thing 2. The Law-makers were not all of one mind in the Reasons of their Laws nor had all studied these kind of controversies Many of them and of the Clergy to this day say that it is not a proper ordination that they require but the giving them Authority to exercise their Ministry in England and the decision of a doubtful case Part of the Church taketh them for true Ministers that were ordained by Presbyters and part do not and that the Congregations may not divide they say they require this like Baptizing after a doubtful Baptism If thou art not baptized I baptize thee I am against this But this proveth not that they take a Presbyter for no Pastor Yea tho they should take his ordaining others to be a nullity Ordaining not being essential to him XXIV The Act of Uniformity or the like Law cannot make the Church no Church or of another species than 1. As it is esteemed by God and his Law 2. Or as it is esteemed by the greater part of the Christian Clergy and Laity Tho the Law should speak as the foresaid odd innovators do For 1. All Christians profess that Christ is the only just Institutor of the essentials of his own Churches All Christians profess Communion with them as Churches of Christs making by his Law The present Church of England professeth this in many books it bindeth all Ministers to hold to Scripture sufficiency and use Discipiine as well as Doctrine and Worship as Christ commandeth It openly holdeth all Laws and Canons about Church essentials yea and integrals to be void and null that are against the Sacred Scriptures and Law of God There is no Power but of God God hath given no power to nullifie his institutions 2. All true Christians who consent to a Parish Minister and attend on his Ministry and join in the Assemblies openly profess to own him first as a Minister of Christ and to join in Worship and Communion of the church as prescibed by Christ which no man hath power to overthrow 3. The Parliament and Convocations and Bishops and Clergy all confess that they have no power to overthrow the Church essentials or offices of Christs Institution They have not revoked the Church Writings in which all this is oft professed They confess that if their Laws mistake and do contrary they bind us not They never openly professed a war against God or Jesus Christ What if one Dr. S. Parker make Christ subject to the King in his Kingdom he is not the Kingdom nor the Church of England For all his words they never made any Law to command Christ or to punish him They never cited him to appear before them nor did any penal execution on his Person which Government implieth They bow at his name and profess subjection to him Therefore if the law had by error said any thing inconsistent with the essence of Churches and Ministry it had not been obligatory to Pastors or people but they ought still to take Churches and Pastors to be what Christ hath made them and described them to be XXV Suppose a Law should say All families shall be so under Diocesans as to have no power but from them and all shall subscribe to this This doth not null family-power and society as instituted by God nor make it a sin to live in Families nor dissolve them all But all must continue in Families as inst●tuted by God And if any subscribe to this it will not make it a sin in all Wives Children and Servants to live in those families If the Law had said All Schools in England shall be essentially subject to Diocesans must we therefore have had no more Schools Or if the School-master subscribe to them is it a sin to be his Scholar If the Law should say All Christians shall choose their own Pastors and meet and pray and preach as they please but only in essential subjection to Diocesans must all therefore give over Church Communion If the Law had said All the Parish-Assemblies in England shall henceforth be essentially subject to the Pope or a forreign Council We must not therefore have forborn all such Assembling but have kept to the state and duty appointed us by Christ XXVI Here the mistaking Opponents say 1. That indeed de jure none can change the Essence of Christs Ministry and Churches but de facto they may and have done Ans What is meant by changing it de facto Have they de facto nulled Christs Power Law or Offices and Churches What Nulled it by a Nullity of pretended Authority and overcome his Power without Power De jure and de facto to be a true Church or Pastor is all one Christ made true ones De facto they cannot unmake them but by destroying matter or form because they cannot do it de jure They have destroyed neither matter or form of such parish churches as I plead for and which Christ instituted for they had not power to do it Indeed they may de facto make other sort of Churches and Ministers to themselves tho not de jure but not to us who stick to Christs institutions XXVII But say they We confess if the Law did bid all assemblies in England meet in dependance on Diocesans private and publick this would not alter the species of our separate Churches because man hath not power and we consent not Ans Very good And I pray you what alters the case as to the Parish-Churches Is it that they have Steeples and Bells or that they have Tythes It 's the Calamity of Dissenters that they either cannot consider or can feel no strength in the plainest truth that is said against them but thoughts and sense run all one way which they think right XXVIII Obj. But say they Constitutive and Declaritive Laws must be distinguished They can but declare our Meetings to be Diocesan which is false 〈…〉 the Parish-Meetings such Ans 1. Remember that declaring the Parish-Churches to be such doth no more constitute them such than yours Why then talk you so much of the words of Bishops and Clergy and Books as if their declarations made them such 2. But how doth a Law constitute one the Parochial to be Diocesan or null more than your separate meetings if by a Law of toleration it should say the same of them The truth is They are such to consenters that judg them such But they constitute them not such to any that consent not to such a constitution but hold to Christs XXIX But it is said that our thoughts alter not constitutions they are our own immanent acts that nihil ponunt in esse and therefore the Pastors and Churches will be

Communicant hath not so much more than I. XXXVI But say they then you are bound to av●●d s●andal by professing openly that you Communicate 〈◊〉 a Dissenter and not with the Church as established by Law Ans 1. Then I should falsly say that which I either think is otherwise or am not resolved in I tell you Few can truly say this if any 2. What need this when the open Profession of all Christians is That it is a Church and Worship of Christs making which they own and intend and none that is against them And when the Articles of the Church of England and the Ordination covenant own Scripture-sufficiency and disclaim all that is against Gods word Must we be supposed to renounce Religion when we meet to profess it And surely for disowning any thing which the Nonconformists judg unlawful all the Books written by them and all the notorious sufferings in twenty two years Ejection and Prosecution are no obscure Notification of their Judgments without speaking it at the Church ●oors or before the Assemblies Must I openly protest against Independency Anabaptistry or Presbytery if I dissent before the face of their Congregations if I will Communicate with them 3. But to stop your demand bef●re I Communicated in the Parish ●hurch where I now am I went to the Incumbent and told him that I would not draw him into danger or intrude against his will I had been ●●iled by the Kings Commission and after by the Lord Keeper to debate about Alteration in the Liturgy and Worship and Discipline and I thought that thereby I wa● by 〈◊〉 6 7 8. ipso facto Excommunicate but not bound to do Execution on my self and therefore if I were separated it should not be my act but I left it to his will He took time and upon advice admitted me Obj. But you must tell them that the Parish Church hath no dependance on the Bishops but as the Kings Officers and that it is Independent and then you fall not under our opposition Ans 1. How many Lawyers and Civilians do openly say as Crompton before Cosins Tables that all Church Government floweth from the King And doth that satisfie you 2. And why must the Parish Church and Pastor needs be Independent Will you have no Communion with Presbyterians 3. And what if it be dependent on the Diocesan as governour tho not as destroyer Is it any more destructive of its Essence than to be governed by a Classis or Council XXXVII As for your telling us W●●m the Canons e●c●mmunicate or 〈◊〉 Lay-chancellors Officials Surrogates Archdeac●ns c. exc●mmunicate what Oaths they imp●se c. tell them of it and not us who are not responsible for other mens deeds It no more concerneth our cause of Parochial Lay-communion than to tell us how bad men some Ministers are nor so much neither For I that willingly joyn in the Liturgy will not willingly if I know it so much as seem to own the Ministry of any man that is notoriously Insufficient Atheistical Heretical or so Malignant or Wicked as to do more hurt than good Avoid such and spare not XXXVIII Obj. They want the Peoples c●nsent and so are no Past●rs Ans The People shew their consent by ordinary Submission and Communion Obj. The People must be supposed to consent to the Law which maketh them no Pastors but the Bishops Curates Ans Both the Suppositions are before confuted both that the People are supposed to consent to any Law against Gods and that the Law maketh Curates to be no Pastors XXXIX To conclude the Objections about the Essence of Parish Churches 1. The question is not Whether there be not a sort of Diocesan Prelacy which nulleth them 2. Nor wh●ther there be not some men in England that write and plead for such Diocesan Churches as have no true Episcop●s pregis much less Episcopus 〈◊〉 under them but are 〈◊〉 Bishops in that Diocess Nor of what number power or interest these men are of against whom I have oft written 3. But whether the Law be on their side or against them for the old Diocesan Government of subordinate Pastors and Churches is to me n●w uncertain I did once incline most to the fi●●t sense of the Law but on sec●nd thoughts hope better of it and am not Lawyer good enough to be certain 4. But if it should be so I verily think ●●e main 〈◊〉 of the 〈…〉 and therefore 〈◊〉 not to renounce their P●rish ●overnment ●ut only to use it in subordination to the Bishop 5. And I am p●st doubt that all the Communicants of England are neither ●ound to decide this Law-doubt nor to understand it nor to believe that the Law hath altered the Government 6. And if they did believe it they ought to keep on in Church Assemblies according to Christs Law taking all that 's against it as void as long as they are put ●n no sin themselves nor the Church notoriously renounceth its ●ssentials 7. And if they were stated Members of other Churches e.g. the Gre●k the Dutch the French they might ●ccasionally Communicate in our Parishes transiently without examining the Pastors call and discipline but judging by possession and practice 8. And if they should prove no lawfully called Ministers their Office would be valid to those that blamelesly were deceived and knew it not 9. And if they were sure that they were no true Ministers they may joyn with them in all Worship belonging to Lay-Christians 10. But if they prove able godly Ministers of Christ tho faulty setled by Law to the advantage of Religion in a Christian Kingdom where all are commanded thus to maintain national Concord and the upholding those Churches is the very National possession of the Protestant Religion and it goeth for publick Disobedience and Scandal to forsake them and that at a time when many forsake them too for unjust grounds and by suffering for it stand to unwarrantable Accusations of them and sharply Censure those that do not as they and oppugne Peacemakers and all this after the old Nonconformists full Confutation of the Separatists unwarrantable way and the doleful experience of Subversion of all sorts of Government by the Prosecution of such mistakes I say If all this should be the case it is deeply to be considered XL. But the most effectual hindrance is the opinion of unlawfulness in j●yning in the Liturgy yet my last Objectors confess that It is lawful to some and that it is n●t Communion in it much less in all forms which they call unlawful t● all And the sober sort are loth to say t●at the Millions of Christians in England and Scotland who live where they can be in no other Churches should rather like Atheists live without all Church-Worship and local Communion And in gaining this I have gained the better half of what I pleaded for And they confess and so do I that publick Communion may be one mens duty and anot●●rs sin as circumstances vary

if by subjection you mean but joyning in their Churches as Christian and Protestant for doctrine and worship notwithstanding the defect which they cannot help yea which they disclaim bare accusation will not prove this a sin but by this we see how much of Christs Church you are for separating from 2. For my part I have oft published That it is not the least part of my charge against Popery that they unchurch almost all the Christian World save themselves But yet they are about a 4th or 3d part of professed Christians themselves and divers of them do not unchurch the Greeks But to unchurch or forbid Communion with all that are as faulty as the Helvetians and all other Protestant Churches that have Liturgies or partial faults is that which I dare not be guilty of I think that to say That a thousand parts to one of Christs Church are none of his Churches is next to deposing him from his Kingdom Much like as it would be to say no part of London is the Kings but Amen Corner nor any part of England but Barnet or Brentford 3. And is it not one of our just accusations of the Papists That they say all the Protestant Churches are no true Churches and the Ministers no true Pastors and that Communion with them is unlawful and shall we now justifie them and say as they tho not on the same Reason but for a far smaller difference Is this our running from Popery 4. Yea is it not the great thing that we accuse the superconformists for That they make us to be no true Ministers or Churches and are we indeed of the same mind One side saith We are no true Ministers for want of Bps. Ordination c. Another side saith You are no true Ministers for having Communion with the Bishops and Churches c. VII I mentioned the Judgment and Practise of the old Nonconformists and Presbyterians not as a rule but as a comparative example To this he saith p. 11. You and they might as well own the Church of England in the form and constitution as it is established as the Parish churches to be particular Gospel churches c. P. 12. To say you join with a quatenus and own not the very constitution and standing of the church with which you join in the sense the church asserts it is the greatest equivocation in practice that is The old Nonconformists nor you are to be no presidents to us in this case So far as the old Nonconformists and the old reforming conformists went forward with Reformation to bring the church out of the wilderness we honour them but when they turn back again and entice the people so to do we are afraid to tempt God in that manner P. 14. Those ●ld Nonconformists that did so are no presidents to 〈◊〉 If they halted and were lame must we be so such communicants are not acceptable to any Church and I know what Church would never admit them were it not to punish and expose them and their profession as ridiculous and inconsistent with its self And as for FRENCH and DUTCH what are they to us c. P. 16 He calls Mr. Fenns joining in the Liturgy with exception of some part The sul●en practice of a half-paced doting Nonc●nformist Ans First to the Cause and secondly to the Persons 1. To call any practice Equivocation or by any ill name is no proof that it is so nor is here a word of true proof given us I ask the Considerate Is it in the power of a Law-maker to make all Worship and Duty to God unlawful by commanding to do it for an unlawful end or upon false principles What if a Law said All people shall worship God not because the Scripture commandeth it but because the State commands it Would this make it unlawful to worship God I would disown the Principle and go on What if the Law should say The Pastoral Office is not of Divine Right but humane must the office therefore be renounced And why can such a Law any more bind me to judg of Church-constitutions by the Lawmakers words rather than by Gods Word Suppose that the Anabaptists say That rebaptizing is the true way of Church-gathering Is it a sin to communicate with them if they will receive me when I profess the contrary I am against the Covenant which you defend as making an Independent Church Is it therefore a sin to communicate with them because it is not as constituted by that Covenant What do Parties more differ in of late than Forms Orders Modes and Circumstances of Church Government and if they be of many contrary minds were it twenty there can be but one of them in the right And is it unlawful to join with all the rest Must we needs be sure which of these is in the right Almost all the Churches that I hear of in the world have their agreed professions published the Protestants are gathered in the Corpus confessionum the English Church Principles and Orders are expressed in the Book of Canons the Liturgy Ordination the 39 Articles the Homilies the Apology c. Must every one stay from their Churches till he hath read and understood all these Books and be sure that there is no fault or error in them What if it be poor men or women that cannot buy all these books and what if they cannot read whom shall they get to read them all and how shall they have time to study them or capacity to understand them when we can hardly get them to learn a Catechism and anderstand it You will say That is their crime that make all these Confessions and Books They will answer but that 's none of our fault We made them not and yet must we not communicate with any Church that maketh such The old Separatists called Brownists published their confession and therein owned many Parish Churches in England and Communion with them I recited their words in my Reasons c. But you are gone beyond them The New England churches printed their confession and all there agreed not to it The English Independents published their Principles and Confessions And the Presbyterians and they agreed in the Westminster Synods confession catechism and Directory Is every poor Man and Woman bound to stay from all their churches when for 14 years they had no other till they understand all these and know that they are faultless Or if there be any fault in any one of all these books is every one guilty of them that cometh to the churches The Anabaptists published their confession The Dutch have theirs Many churches agreed with them in the Synod of Dort The French have theirs the Saxons the Helvetians Geneva the Bohemians the Protestants in general had the Augustane and many more have theirs Reader See with whom these Writers will hold communion who make it unlawful to join with any church that have any fault in their constitutions or agreed Doctrines or Orders

Schism and Covenant-breaking in me whatever it is in others XLVI Obj. But you swore against Prelacy and Liturgy and now you strengthen them Ans 1. As the Covenant was made the terms or test of national Church Union excluding all the Episcopal who were half the Kingdom and more I think it was a rash sinful Engine of unavoidable division But when I took it it was not so imposed but offered to them that were of that mind and I saw not then that snare 2. I never swore against the Common-Prayer nor against the Englsh frame of Prelacy much less all Episcopacy any further than in my place and calling to endeavour Reformation according to the word of God and the example of the best reformed churches And this I have endeavoured to the utmost of my power perhaps more than my accusers And 3. There is much good in the Liturgy Parish Order and Government I never did covenant against that and therefore the Ministers who laboured for Reformation and Concord 1660 and 1661 thought they kept their covenant by craving some amendments and not an abolition and if we did think any thing to be bad that was good we must not be obstinate in that error forsaking the good which is our duty is not the way to amend any sin or error avoiding Gods publick Worship and living like Atheists save in private is not the way to amend the faults of publick Worship or Government Praying to God for what we want and owning the Scriptures and Christian Religion and communicating with Christians on lawful terms is not encouraging any sin in church Priests or Prelates unless men by our duty will be encouraged to sin and we must not forsake duty to avoid such mens encouragement the sons of the Coal are most angry with those that come nearest to them in all things save their sin and error and say those that stand afar off cannot hurt them I do not just●fie all that is in every Assembly that I join with must I needs renounce Local communion with every Independent Presbyterian or Anabaptist church that I dissent from for fear of strengthning them I covenanted as much against Schism as faulty Prelacy and yet if I must join with no church that is guilty of Schism alas whither shall I go 4. I humbly desire you to examine whether your way be not a breach of the covenant you plead not only as it advantageth Prophaneness Popery and Schism but as it strengtheneth that which you say I strengthen he knoweth not England who knoweth not that perceiving the error of unwarrantable separation and the unjust accusations of the Liturgy and churches used by very many besides some failings in some private churches hath been and is a grand cause of encouraging too great a number even to superconformity and to the fierce opposition of us and to the utmost confidence in their own way and as you charge me more than others as drawing more to the communion of Godly Protestant Parish Ministers that is to christian catholick love peace and communion So do the Sons of the Coal the superconformists more fiercely revile me as stopping more than you have done from their extremities Gods Word is a sufficient rule keep to that and fear not breaking any self-made laws XLVII Obj. But by this latitude you may join with Papists and say you judg of them according to Christs description Ans I answered this in the former book When I joyn with any church as a church I join with them as meeting to profess and practice christian faith and worship their by faults I own not But if they openly profess Idolatry or Heresie instead of Worship and Faith or if they meet to practice any sin which renders the whole church or worship rejected by God I must not assemble with them but avoid them which I must not do for tolerable failings lest I avoid all the world I say again I will cast away my Wine or Broth for Poyson in it which I will not do for a fly If the church renounce Christs description in the essentials notoriously I will not call it a church against their own consent But if they do it only in some Accident or Integrals I will only disown those faults XLVIII Obj. But say they p. 13.14 It is impossible there should be two national churches at least in one nation therefore by joining with a Parish you can be no part of the national church tho we confess that if you join with a Parish Assembly that forms it self into a compleat single church and the people ●onsent to take the Parish Minister for their Pastor and the Minister should exercise the whole power of a Pastor in this Parish church Mr. B. may hold communion with this Parish church and not own the Diocesan constitution Ans Of two churches in one assembly I spake before 1. Doth this Author think that exercise of power is as essential to a Minister as Power Yea that it must be the whole power that is exercised and so that no one is a true Pastor among the Presbyterians when the Classis exerciseth the highest part of the Power nor in Helvetia where Discipline is unexercised nor in England from the first Reformation Were all the Conformists that submitted to Diocesans no Church-Pastors nor no Independents whose Churches having many Pastors and Elders no one exerciseth no nor hath more than part of the power Integrity and essentiality office and exercise are not all one 2. All good Ministers that I know in the Parish Assemblies do consent to the Pastoral Office and the people love them and shew their consent by ordinary Communion and they exercise all essential to the office tho under the restraints of Government not owning in consent destructive but governing Diocesans some as de jure divino lawful some as best some as necessary many as merely impowered to a cogent Government by the King and doth not your concession imply that these are true Churches of intolerable men I speak not 3. What you confidently deny is certainly true There may be two national churches in one nation if not three that is the word is equivocal and hath divers sences and it is not called national because all persons in the nation are of it but because that the diffused parts of the Nation own it formally in a publick national relation 1. A Christian Kingdom as such is by many called a national Church thus England is such 2. A coalition of the most or all the publick Ministers in a Nation in Synodical Agreements for Communion as such is called a National Church such also is England 3. The subjection of the most of the Clergy in a nation by consent to some Ecclesiastical Primate Patriarch or other constitutive governing Head as a Bishop is in his Diocess may make a national Church in another sence The same men may be of divers of these equivocal Churches or if part be for one form and part