Selected quad for the lemma: christian_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
christian_n	baptism_n	baptize_v	infant_n	1,991	5	9.3594	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41334	A sober reply to the sober answer of Reverend Mr. Cawdrey, to A serious question propounded viz. whether the ministers of England are bound by the word of God to baptise the children of all such parents, which say they believe in Jesus Christ, but are grosly ignorant, scandalous in their conversations, scoffers at godliness, and refuse to submit to church dicipline ... : also, the question of Reverend Mr. Hooker concerning the baptisme of infants : with a post-script to Reverend Mr. Blake / by G.I. Firmin ...	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.; Hooker, Thomas, 1586-1647. Covenant of grace opened.	1653 (1653)	Wing F966; ESTC R16401	67,656	64

5._o where_o you_o revive_v it_o again_o then_o your_o chearse_v mr._n hooker_n sentence_n and_o there_o sinde_v that_o i_o do_v not_o accord_v with_o he_o if_o not_o than_o i_o pray_v lee_n this_o convince_v you_o that_o you_o have_v not_o speak_v right_o when_o you_o say_v i_o borrow_v my_o ground_n from_o mr._n hooker_n reader_n in_o your_o epist_n to_o the_o reader_n how_o do_v i_o borrow_v my_o ground_n from_o he_o to_o who_o i_o go_v cross_n as_o you_o say_v i_o do_v if_o i_o have_v do_v so_o mr._n hooker_n be_v a_o man_n of_o who_o one_o may_v borrow_v but_o i_o do_v not_o remember_v what_o ground_n i_o borrow_v but_o i_o be_v glad_a when_o i_o see_v so_o learned_a and_o holy_a a_o man_n to_o defend_v some_o thing_n which_o before_o i_o conceive_v be_v right_o but_o as_o to_o this_o difference_n here_o i_o be_o sure_a mr._n hooker_n be_v now_o alive_a in_o england_n he_o will_v not_o baptize_v all_o the_o child_n of_o any_o of_o the_o congregalon_n d●●_n england_n without_o any_o more_o ado_n i_o can_v gather_v so_o much_o out_o of_o his_o book_n and_o therefore_o we_o do_v not_o differ_v in_o this_o then_o you_o come_v to_o my_o first_o premise_v which_o be_v the_o infant_n abstract_v from_o the_o parens_fw-la 3._o page_n 3._o give_v no_o reason_n why_o it_o shall_v be_v baptize_v this_o say_v you_o be_v otherwise_o propound_v by_o mr._n hooker_n then_o it_o be_v unlikely_a to_o be_v borrow_v of_o he_o then_o you_o tell_v i_o it_o be_v not_o right_o propose_v yes_o sir_n very_o right_a it_o be_v ordinary_a with_o divine_n to_o lay_v a_o proposition_n first_o further_o off_o 4._o page_n 4._o then_o to_o come_v near_o neither_o do_v i_o see_v that_o you_o have_v one_o whit_n consure_v it_o but_o yield_v it_o do_v you_o baptize_v any_o child_n in_o your_o parish_n without_o consider_v it_o in_o relation_n to_o a_o parent_n do_v you_o consider_v it_o in_o it_o selse_a abstract_a from_o any_o other_o and_o yet_o baptize_v it_o i_o pray_v make_v a_o argument_n out_o of_o that_o text_n in_o your_o title-page_n mar_n 10.14_o which_o i_o preslime_v you_o bring_v for_o infant_n baptism_n and_o consider_v the_o infant_n alone_o as_o abstract_v from_o the_o parent_n you_o say_v present_o here_o the_o child_n of_o england_n be_v christian_n bear_v how_o by_o reason_n of_o the_o house_n soil_n or_o the_o parent_n then_o it_o be_v a_o christian_a child_n and_o in_o relation_n to_o such_o a_o one_o it_o be_v baptize_v thus_o you_o find_v fault_n with_o mr._n hooker_n but_o if_o you_o will_v cross_v he_o 185._o diatr_n 185._o or_o myself_o who_o be_o not_o worthy_a to_o be_v name_v in_o the_o day_n with_o he_o lay_v down_o this_o proposition_n viz._n the_o infant_n of_o england_n quâ_fw-la sic_fw-la consider_v as_o abstract_v from_o any_o where_o aught_o to_o be_v baptize_v if_o you_o will_v maintain_v this_o than_o i_o confess_v you_o may_v find_v faule_fw-mi for_o your_o second_o answer_n when_o any_o body_n practice_v as_o you_o say_v there_o then_o let_v such_o a_o one_o consider_v it_o you_o may_v have_v spare_v those_o line_n for_o i_o know_v none_o such_o i_o do_v it_o before_o the_o child_n be_v bring_v then_o you_o come_v to_o the_o second_o premise_v the_o child_n be_v baptize_v as_o consider_v in_o relation_n to_o a_o parent_n one_o or_o both_o that_o be_v the_o sum_n you_o say_v m._n hooker_n and_o i_o mean_v the_o tax_v parent_n and_o this_o you_o have_v consure_v large_o that_o be_v your_o meaning_n in_o diatr_n p._n 187._o of_o that_o hereafter_o only_o now_o you_o add_v first_o your_o say_n thin_a ineffect_n be_v the_o same_o with_o the_o former_a one_o the_o negative_a the_o other_o the_o affirmative_a true_a sir_n i_o know_v it_o before_o only_o for_o clearness_n suke_n as_o we_o use_v to_o openiting_n first_o by_o show_v what_o they_o be_v not_o as_o say_v love_n union_n with_o christ_n etc._n etc._n then_o what_o they_o be_v so_o i_o do_v here_o and_o i_o hope_v no_o fault_n in_o so_o do_v second_o you_o tell_v i_o of_o two_o other_o way_n for_o child_n to_o come_v to_o baptism_n beside_o the_o next_o parent_n 5._o page_n 5._o of_o which_o hereafter_o next_o you_o say_v i_o take_v occasion_n to_o desine_fw-la a_o church_n a_o society_n of_o visible_a sain_n join_v together_o by_o way_n of_o covenant_n etc._n etc._n here_o you_o observe_v two_o thing_n 1._o that_o i_o own_v no_o cathelique_n church_n but_o a_o particular_a congregation_n nor_o any_o member_n of_o a_o church_n but_o of_o such_o a_o church_n than_o you_o climb_v of_o a_o man_n be_v a_o member_n only_o of_o the_o catholic_a church_n and_o by_o virtue_n of_o that_o require_v baptism_n for_o his_o child_n 〈◊〉_d for_o a_o catholic_a church_n yes_o i_o own_v it_o neither_o do_v i_o know_v any_o understand_a man_n deny_v it_o but_o i_o doubt_v you_o forget_v one_o word_n you_o mean_v catholic_a visible_a church_n but_o if_o you_o have_v say_v so_o yes_o in_o i_o own_o that_o also_o but_o whether_o it_o be_v one_o organitall_a body_n i_o see_v some_o difficulty_n in_o that_o and_o leave_v in_o for_o further_a time_n to_o discover_v the_o congregationall_a man_n for_o aught_o i_o can_v discern_v own_o it_o so_o as_o nothing_o but_o nor._n and_o exit_fw-la part_v you_o and_o they_o in_o the_o conclusion_n in_o point_n of_o discipline_n i_o know_v for_o adminlstr_n the_o seal_n in_o another_o congregation_n which_o that_o notion_n bring_v in_o there_o some_o congregationall_a man_n differ_v and_o so_o for_o one_o minister_n to_o excommunicate_v in_o another_o congregation_n that_o they_o will_v not_o own_o nor_o do_v you_o but_o upon_o a_o call_n they_o will_v go_v along_o with_o other_o officer_n and_o assist_v they_o in_o clear_v out_o thing_n and_o help_v they_o what_o may_v be_v only_o they_o will_v not_o put_v forth_o such_o power_n against_o such_o to_o who_o they_o be_v no_o officer_n i_o trouble_v not_o these_o holy_a man_n in_o that_o those_o who_o will_v differ_v with_o such_o man_n upon_o these_o point_v i_o think_v do_v not_o well_o the_o other_o part_n do_v not_o concern_v my_o question_n neither_o be_o i_o so_o clear_a in_o it_o as_o i_o wish_v i_o be_v i_o shall_v humble_o propound_v my_o thought_n 1._o if_o a_o man_n must_v first_o be_v a_o member_n of_o a_o particular-visible-church_n before_o he_o can_v be_v of_o the_o catholike-visible-church_n than_o your_o notion_n will_v not_o hold_v but_o the_o antecedent_n be_v true_a ergo_fw-la the_o consequent_a be_v true_a antec_fw-la i_o prove_v if_o a_o man_n must_v first_o be_v cast_v our_o of_o a_o particular-church_n before_o he_o can_v out_o of_o the_o catholic_a than_o a_o man_n must_v first_o be_v a_o member_n of_o a_o particular_a before_o he_o can_v be_v of_o the_o catholic_a church_n but_o the_o antecedent_n be_v true_v 〈◊〉_d ergo._n consequence_n be_v clear_a to_o i_o on_o this_o ground_n else_o i_o can_v see_v how_o he_o who_o be_v cast_v out_o of_o a_o particular_a church_n can_v be_v cast_v out_o of_o the_o catholic_a church_n 17._o though_o excommunicate_v unjust_o yet_o till_o case_n be_v hear_v communion_n deny_v council_n sa●●ll_n can._n 17._o if_o a_o man_n be_v first_o a_o member_n of_o a_o particular_a church_n and_o by_o virtue_n of_o this_o come_v to_o have_v communion_n with_o all_o other_o church_n this_o latter_a depend_v on_o the_o former_a than_o the_o reason_n be_v clear_a cast_v he_o out_o of_o a_o particular_a church_n you_o cut_v he_o off_o from_o all_o communion_n with_o other_o but_o if_o a_o man_n be_v first_o a_o member_n of_o the_o catholic_a church_n and_o his_o be_v a_o member_n of_o this_o particular_a church_n depend_v upon_o that_o than_o i_o see_v no_o reason_n for_o though_o you_o have_v cast_v he_o out_o of_o your_o particular_a church_n which_o be_v second_o yet_o his_o membership_n to_o the_o catholic_a church_n which_o be_v first_o and_o independent_a upon_o this_o still_o remain_v and_o you_o do_v in_o excommunication_n but_o cast_v he_o into_o that_o state_n he_o be_v in_o before_o he_o join_v to_o you_o so_o that_o still_o he_o be_v a_o member_n of_o the_o catholic_a church_n and_o may_v demand_v ordinance_n elsewhere_o other_o church_n deny_v not_o communion_n before_o the_o particular_a do_v of_o which_o he_o be_v a_o member_n than_o they_o follow_v hence_o their_o act_n depefid_v on_o this_o if_o depend_v than_o not_o first_o 2._o this_o seem_v a_o little_a odd_a to_o i_o a_o man_n be_v a_o member_n of_o the_o catholic_a church_n only_o thence_o he_o will_v require_v baptism_n of_o this_o church_n of_o another_o church_n he_o will_v require_v the_o lord_n supper_n in_o another_o there_o he_o will_v bear_v to_o he_o may_v go_v to_o all_o church_n in_o

i_o be_o the_o strong_a for_o if_o there_o be_v no_o excommunication_n i_o be_o not_o tie_v to_o baptise_v till_o they_o be_v excommunicate_v which_o you_o urge_v so_o much_o you_o ask_v i_o again_n will_v i_o have_v such_o sudden_o eject_v why_o sir_n be_v there_o no_o church-discipline_n but_o excommunication_n we_o use_v unless_o offence_n he_o very_o notorious_a and_o we_o have_v enough_o such_o first_o to_o admonish_v person_n serious_o to_o bring_v person_n to_o repentance_n if_o that_o will_v not_o do_v we_o suspend_v if_o that_o will_v not_o do_v church-discipline_n so_o some_o conceive_v non-communion_n to_o be_v a_o act_n of_o church-discipline_n then_o excommunicate_a i_o say_v before_o the_o time_n we_o now_o be_v cast_v in_o be_v to_o be_v consider_v as_o the_o ●eyden_n profossour_n speak_v in_o the_o same_o case_n but_o because_o you_o can_v excommunicate_v you_o will_v do_v nothing_o and_o when_o you_o have_v excommunicate_v it_o be_v all_o one_o with_o you_o so_o that_o you_o do_v but_o delude_v we_o i_o do_v not_o absolute_o deny_v any_o baptism_n but_o conditional_o if_o they_o will_v not_o come_v to_o be_v instruct_v and_o give_v we_o some_o better_a testimony_n of_o their_o conversation_n but_o before_o they_o will_v be_v catchise_v by_o i_o and_o give_v any_o better_a testimony_n they_o will_v fling_v away_o now_o say_v you_o all_o his_o argumet_n 〈◊〉_d will_v be_v easy_o dissolve_v 20._o page_n 20._o it_o be_v well_o what_o you_o have_v speak_v to_o in_o this_o page_n 20._o i_o have_v answer_v before_o only_o whereas_o you_o say_v i_o have_v often_o confess_v that_o person_n tolerate_v ought_v not_o to_o bro_fw-mi exclude_v the_o lord_n supper_n sir_n i_o will_v keep_v to_o the_o title_n of_o my_o book_n it_o shall_v be_v a_o sober_a reply_n and_o i_o say_v i_o have_v not_o once_o say_v any_o such_o thing_n but_o than_o you_o call_v to_o minister_n to_o examine_v whether_o they_o have_v do_v well_o in_o exclude_v half_a it_o may_v be_v of_o their_o parish_n from_o the_o supper_n by_o their_o own_v power_n alone_o and_o page_n 26.28_o you_o seem_v to_o condemn_v this_o practice_n o_o brave_a reformation_n in_o the_o bishop_n time_n a_o minister_n alone_o make_v no_o question_n to_o do_v this_o and_o now_o every_o minister_n be_v a_o bishop_n as_o i_o be_o sure_a you_o will_v grant_v that_o a_o bishop_n and_o presbyter_n be_v all_o one_o yet_o now_o minister_n must_v not_o do_v it_o but_o let_v all_o come_v to_o the_o supper_n till_o a_o glassis_n be_v set_v up_o here_o you_o tell_v we_o we_o cry_v out_o again_o and_o call_v people_n to_o separate_v from_o you_o because_o you_o want_v a_o ordinance_n 21._o page_n 21._o then_o add_v the_o lord_n judge_n between_o we_o in_o this_o matter_n this_o sentence_n you_o use_v also_o in_o your_o other_o book_n but_o i_o pray_v apply_v it_o to_o those_o who_o so_o call_v for_o separation_n from_o you_o my_o conscience_n clear_v i_o from_o any_o such_o thing_n therefore_o sir_n do_v you_o not_o use_v such_o a_o sentence_n vain_o then_o you_o come_v to_o answer_v the_o weak_a argument_n such_o as_o the_o question_n mention_n dejure_v aught_o and_o de_fw-fr facto_fw-la pray_fw-mi exclude_v from_o the_o lord_n supper_n ergo_fw-la ought_v also_o to_o be_v exclude_v from_o their_o infant_n baptism_n this_o you_o say_v you_o deny_v with_o all_o the_o proof_n of_o be_v the_o proof_n be_v as_o weak_a as_o the_o consequence_n viz._n because_o baptism_n seal_v to_o the_o same_o covenant_n as_o the_o lord_n supper_n do_v ergo_fw-la if_o exclude_v from_o one_o seal_n then_o from_o the_o other_o the_o proof_n again_o be_v like_a to_o the_o formar_n viz._n because_o such_o person_n appear_v pear_n not_o to_o be_v those_o to_o who_o the_o seal_n of_o the_o lord_n supper_n do_v belong_v have_v no_o right_a in_o those_o privilege_n therefore_o baptism_n signify_v and_o feeling_n as_o great_a privilege_n as_o the_o lord_n supper_n they_o can_v convey_v a_o title_n unto_o that_o seal_n for_o their_o child_n but_o aught_o to_o be_v exclude_v all_o be_v weak_a that_o mr._n cawdrey_n oppose_v there_o be_v in_o logic_n those_o way_n of_o answer_v which_o logician_n call_v solutiones_fw-la apparcute_v one_o of_o they_o be_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d this_o you_o be_v well_o acquaint_v with_o to_o slight_v the_o argument_n bring_v against_o you_o tell_v your_o reader_n they_o be_v weak_a and_o that_o be_v half_a and_o answer_n at_o least_o all_o be_v not_o of_o your_o mind_n concern_v this_o argument_n 24._o his_o vindication_n of_o free_a admiss_o to_o l._n sup._n p._n 24._o mr._n humphries_n say_v those_o who_o have_v go_v about_o to_o answer_v this_o bid_v better_a happy_o say_v nothing_o for_o our_o free_a course_n of_o baptism_n and_o a_o deny_v all_o of_o this_o be_v such_o a_o seam-rent_a as_o will_v never_o be_v handsome_o drawn_n up_o though_o stitch_n together_o for_o his_o judgement_n in_o admission_n of_o all_o to_o lord_n supper_n i_o leave_v it_o but_o let_v we_o see_v how_o weak_a you_o show_v it_o your_o answer_n be_v this_o the_o argument_n ought_v to_o proc_v of_o the_o same_o person_n viz._n such_o as_o ought_v to_o be_v exclude_v from_o the_o lord_n supper_n ought_v if_o now_o they_o be_v to_o be_v baptize_v also_o to_o be_v exclude_v from_o baptism_n for_o themselves_o but_o this_o do_v not_o reach_v the_o child_n for_o they_o be_v bear_v christian_n of_o christian_n have_v right_a to_o baptism_n what_o sir_n have_v you_o catch_v i_o in_o that_o fallacy_n i_o have_v take_v you_o so_o often_o in_o i_o hope_v not_o i_o have_v speak_v before_o to_o this_o the_o title_n of_o the_o parent_n and_o the_o child_n be_v but_o one_o and_o the_o same_o 1._o i_o doubt_v not_o but_o master_n cawdrey_n conceive_v there_o be_v thousand_o in_o england_n that_o dejure_v aught_o to_o be_v exclude_v the_o lord_n supper_n else_o be_v must_v condemn_v the_o assembly_n for_o injudicious_a man_n that_o shall_v trouble_v the_o parliament_n for_o a_o act_n etc._n etc._n 2._o these_o mr._n caws_n yield_v be_v they_o now_o to_o be_v baptize_v ought_v not_o to_o be_v baptize_v the_o argument_n proceed_v clear_a against_o they_o 3._o yet_o the_o child_n of_o such_o parent_n be_v bo●ne_v christian_n of_o such_o christian_n as_o ought_v not_o to_o be_v baptize_v themselves_o if_o they_o be_v not_o baptize_v these_o may_v which_o be_v strange_a to_o i_o that_o child_n which_o have_v their_o title_n because_o bear_v of_o such_o parent_n they_o may_v be_v baptize_v but_o the_o parent_n themselves_o who_o give_v the_o title_n must_v not_o therefore_o i_o reply_v if_o the_o argument_n proceed_v so_o strong_o against_o the_o parent_n themselves_o then_o much_o more_o against_o the_o child_n for_o if_o may_v self_n who_o must_v have_v title_n first_o for_o myself_o and_o then_o for_o my_o child_n aught_o to_o be_v deny_v it_o then_o much_o more_o my_o child_n who_o title_n be_v i_o and_o depend_v whole_o upon_o i_o for_o it_o for_o this_o i_o conceive_v to_o be_v a_o sound_a truth_n if_o a_o person_n have_v ten_o or_o twenty_o child_n and_o these_o be_v baptize_v because_o christian_n bear_v of_o such_o a_o parent_n than_o i_o do_v twenty_o time_n justify_v that_o the_o parent_n from_o who_o these_o child_n proceed_v have_v right_a and_o title_n to_o baptism_n so_o that_o which_o you_o say_v be_v not_o a_o sound_a assertion_n p._n 24._o which_o how_o it_o come_v under_o the_o three_o argument_n i_o know_v not_o for_o it_o belong_v to_o the_o first_o viz._n if_o i_o can_v give_v the_o child_n one_o seal_v of_o the_o covenant_n by_o virtue_n of_o the_o parent_n i_o will_v give_v the_o parent_n the_o other_o i_o think_v be_v a_o very_a sound_a assertion_n it_o never_o trouble_v i_o as_o yet_o but_o what_o make_v it_o so_o say_v you_o i_o may_v see_v reason_n to_o deny_v the_o parent_n the_o lord_n supper_n and_o yet_o baptise_v his_o child_n because_o more_o be_v require_v of_o the_o one_o than_o the_o other_o for_o the_o child_n i_o require_v nothing_o of_o it_o but_o look_v to_o the_o parent_n from_o who_o it_o derive_v its_o tith_z if_o you_o require_v any_o thing_n of_o i_o say_v the_o child_n go_v to_o my_o parent_n from_o who_o i_o descend_v why_o then_o do_v you_o say_v you_o require_v more_o of_o the_o one_o than_o the_o other_o neither_o 2._o do_v i_o see_v what_o more_o you_o be_v to_o require_v of_o a_o person_n to_o admit_v he_o to_o the_o lord_n supper_n than_o his_o child_n to_o baptism_n if_o a_o person_n do_v visible_o appear_v to_o have_v the_o condition_n of_o the_o covenant_n he_o be_v a_o church-member_n how_o you_o can_v deny_v he_o the_o lord_n supper_n i_o know_v not_o so_o for_o baptism_n if_o there_o be_v two_o

i_o be_v from_o think_v or_o speak_v so_o the_o very_a next_o word_n unto_o that_o which_o you_o say_v be_v my_o sentence_n and_o out_o of_o which_o i_o have_v consute_v myself_o do_v declare_v my_o word_n be_v these_o but_o i_o conceive_v such_o a_o person_n be_v not_o sufficient_o qualify_v to_o make_v a_o member_n of_o a_o church_n nor_o aught_o to_o be_v continue_v a_o member_n of_o the_o church_n but_o the_o church_n ought_v to_o seek_v to_o reform_v he_o or_o if_o not_o to_o cast_v he_o out_o so_o that_o if_o the_o church_n will_v let_v such_o a_o person_n alone_o and_o give_v he_o these_o ordinance_n there_o will_v be_v guilt_n charge_v upon_o that_o church_n this_o sentence_n i_o conceive_v if_o the_o reader_n be_v but_o indifferent_a and_o not_o prejudice_v against_o i_o will_v save_v i_o from_o selfe-confutation_n if_o the_o sentence_n be_v not_o true_a but_o mr._n cawdry_n have_v prove_v that_o the_o minister_n be_v not_o too_o blame_v though_o he_o let_v he_o alone_o and_o yet_o may_v lawful_o baptise_v then_o have_v he_o speak_v to_o my_o scruple_n indeed_o and_o i_o will_v have_v thank_v he_o hearty_o but_o then_o i_o have_v not_o confute_v myself_o but_o still_o mr._n caw_n will_v urge_v from_o my_o own_o word_n thus_o i_o have_v say_v scandalom_n member_n if_o tolerate_v let_v alone_o by_o the_o church_n they_o have_v a_o remote_a right_n to_o baptism_n and_o the_o supper_n ergo_fw-la they_o may_v lawful_o have_v their_o child_n baptise_a and_o the_o word_n bind_v minister_n to_o do_v it_o to_o this_o i_o shall_v answer_v first_o to_o the_o antecedent_n then_o to_o the_o consequence_n to_o the_o antecedent_n i_o answer_v first_o according_a to_o our_o congregationall_a principle_n that_o which_o give_v a_o man_n the_o first_o right_n to_o a_o sacrament_n viz._n his_o interest_n in_o the_o covenans_fw-la of_o the_o gospel_n which_o you_o use_v very_o much_o against_o mr._n hooker_n take_v the_o word_n from_o himself_o this_o man_n have_v not_o for_o he●_n do_v visible_o declare_v to_o the_o church_n that_o he_o have_v no_o interest_n in_o that_o covenant_n and_o yourself_o deny_v it_o not_o by_o what_o you_o have_v affirm_v concern_v the_o qualification_n of_o church-member_n so_o then_o he_o have_v no_o right_a in_o that_o respect_n all_o the_o right_n he_o have_v be_v by_o the_o toleration_n of_o the_o church_n which_o the_o church_n have_v best_a look_v to_o now_o i_o do_v confess_v that_o first_o right_a be_v the_o main_a in_o my_o esteem_n though_o not_o all_o that_o be_v require_v as_o in_o a_o minister_n the_o great_a matter_n be_v the_o qualification_n of_o the_o person_n which_o be_v his_o inward_a call_n yet_o it_o be_v not_o all_o but_o his_o ordination_n be_v also_o requisite_a but_o if_o bishop_n or_o presbyter_n shall_v ordain_v a_o scandalous_a and_o ignorant_a sot_n not_o able_a to_o teach_v himself_o nor_o the_o church_n i_o shall_v extreme_o doubt_v of_o such_o a_o minister_n so_o here_o i_o conceive_v this_o first_o right_a be_v the_o chief_a but_o yet_o as_o mr._n hoolter_n say_v baptism_n he_o must_v come_v by_o in_o a_o right_a order_n i.e._n he_o must_v be_v a_o member_n of_o some_o congregation_n and_o not_o a_o individuum_fw-la vagum_fw-la belong_v to_o no_o particular_a congregation_n nor_o any_o body_n to_o have_v inspection_n over_o he_o but_o if_o minister_n will_v admit_v person_n that_o have_v not_o this_o first_o right_a and_o continue_v such_o among_o they_o here_o indeed_o be_v a_o kind_n of_o right_n but_o this_o let_v the_o minister_n look_v to_o 2._o i_o answer_v according_a to_o your_o principle_n you_o make_v a_o man_n christianity_n alone_o without_o his_o join_n of_o himself_o to_o any_o congregation_n to_o be_v that_o which_o give_v he_o right_o and_o you_o oppose_v mr._n hooker_n and_o the_o congregationall_a divine_n for_o require_v that_o join_n to_o any_o particular_a church_n before_o they_o will_v baptise_v thus_o you_o say_v all_o child_n of_o christian_n as_o christian_n have_v such_o right_n to_o baptism_n and_o in_o the_o same_o page_n 186._o diatri_fw-la p._n 186._o all_o child_n of_o christian_n as_o such_o have_v right_a to_o baptism_n thus_o in_o your_o answer_n to_o i_o p._n 12._o you_o say_v a_o person_n excommunicate_v give_v right_a to_o his_o child_n baptism_n because_o for_o state_n be_v be_v a_o christian_n and_o retain_v his_o baptism_n now_o sir_n i_o hope_v you_o mean_v it_o must_v be_v such_o christianity_n as_o yourself_o have_v say_v be_v fit_a to_o make_v a_o church-member_n i_o hope_v you_o do_v not_o mean_v such_o christianity_n as_o our_o question_n speak_v of_o by_o virtue_n of_o that_o say_v you_o he_o be_v a_o member_n of_o the_o catholike-church_n now_o sir_n if_o that_o only_o give_v a_o man_n right_a and_o his_o child_n and_o yet_o a_o man_n have_v not_o that_o i_o can_v see_v no_o right_a he_o have_v at_o all_o it_o seem_v strange_a to_o i_o that_o man_n shall_v be_v member_n of_o a_o particular_a church_n and_o not_o of_o the_o catholike-church_n of_o the_o latter_a these_o be_v not_o member_n for_o they_o have_v not_o so_o much_o as_o shall_v give_v they_o a_o right_n to_o that_o membership_n if_o you_o will_v hold_v to_o what_o you_o have_v say_v about_o the_o qualification_n of_o the_o matter_n of_o a_o church_n for_o only_o such_o christianity_n make_v man_n member_n of_o the_o catholike-church_n which_o these_o fall_n very_o short_a of_o we_o use_v to_o unwind_v a_o bottom_n the_o same_o way_n we_o wound_v it_o if_o you_o will_v wind_v the_o bottom_n thus_o a_o professor_n or_o believer_n such_o a_o one_o as_o you_o say_v be_v fit_o qualify_v as_o such_o have_v by_o vertus_fw-fr of_o his_o profession_n only_o a_o right_a to_o his_o own_o and_o child_n baptism_n than_o i_o unwind_v it_o the_o same_o way_n he_o that_o be_v no●_n a_o professor_n as_o you_o mention_v have_v no_o right_a at_o all_o such_o be_v those_o our_o case_n speak_v of_o now_o sir_n here_o lay_v my_o trouble_n that_o since_o these_o person_n in_o the_o first_o and_o main_a respect_n have_v no_o right_n but_o what_o they_o have_v be_v only_o by_o my_o toleration_n this_o question_n arise_v whether_o in_o the_o beginning_n of_o reformation_n wherein_n as_o innius_n say_v something_o will_v be_v extraordinary_a the_o person_n be_v numerous_a and_o not_o so_o fit_a it_o may_v be_v to_o excommunicate_v in_o regard_n of_o number_n 〈◊〉_d though_o in_o respect_n of_o their_o wilful_a igno_fw-la 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d and_o co●●●_n nue_v scandalous_a after_o admonition_n they_o des●●●_n 〈…〉_o not_o the_o church_n suspend_v such_o from_o the_o seal_n of_o the_o cover●●●_n a_o for_o thus_o i_o conceive_v while_o i_o first_o admonish_v people_n ●on_v their_o ignorance_n and_o scandalous_a live_n minor_n suspension_n be_v excommunicatio_fw-la minor_n and_o they_o refuse_v to_o hear_v i_o i_o do_v with_o ●●e_z consent_n of_o the_o church_n suspend_v i_o do_v not_o rol●●ort●_n but_o you_o speak_v as_o if_o there_o be_v nothing_o opposites_n to_o toleration_n but_o excommunication_n or_o thus_o according_a to_o our_o congregationall_a principle_n which_o maintain●●_n a_o non-communion_n in_o case_n excommunication_n can_v be_v exercise_v against_o a_o multitude_n so_o i_o do_v here_o exclude_v they_o from_o such_o ordinance_n as_o do_v hold_v forth_o communion_n and_o so_o it_o be_v non_fw-fr commanion_n in_o effect_n non-communion_n or_o separation_n in_o some_o case_n when_o there_o be_v a_o 〈◊〉_d ●●●●de_n the_o l●yden_n prosessort_v 28.29_o prosessort_v synop._n pour_fw-fr theol._n dicp_n 48._o thes_n 28.29_o maintain_v to_o the_o consequence_n i_o answer_v by_o deny_v it_o viz_o minister_n be_v not_o bind_v by_o the_o word_n to_o baptise_v all_o the_o child_n of_o person_n gross_o ignorant_a and_o scandalous_a though_o tolerate_v i_o still_o carry_v it_o in_o reference_n to_o england_n where_o you_o say_v all_o be_v christian_n and_o church_n member_n here_o now_o i_o shall_v speak_v more_o than_o i_o will_v have_v do_v feel_v the_o temptation_n of_o my_o brethren_n in_o my_o own_o hear●_n but_o your_o triumph_v over_o i_o and_o cell_z the_o world_n how_o i_o have_v at_o once_o confute_v myself_o make_v i_o by_o way_n of_o discourse_n to_o clear_v myself_o though_o i_o think_v it_o be_v do_v already_o thus_o than_o i_o argue_v 1._o if_o such_o member_n as_o the_o question_n speak_v of_o be_v continue_v such_o argumant_n 1._o argumant_n through_o the_o minister_n negligence_n and_o contifulnce_n than_o the_o word_n do_v not_o bind_v minister_n to_o give_v the_o seal_n of_o the_o covenant_n to_o their_o child_n but_o the_o antecedent_n be_v true_a ergo_fw-la the_o consequent_a be_v true_a the_o antecedent_n i_o have_v rather_o have_v apply_v only_o to_o myself_o than_o any_o other_o minister_n be_v far_o more_o holy_a than_o myself_o i_o

the_o world_n if_o he_o can_v and_o demand_v any_o ordinance_n yet_o member_n of_o no_o particular_a church_n so_o let_v this_o man_n walk_v as_o disorderly_o as_o he_o will_v as_o the_o latitude_n sometime_o you_o give_v of_o a_o church-member_n will_v allow_v a_o man_n to_o be_v bad_a enough_o in_o this_o town_n or_o another_o town_n he_o have_v own_v no_o particular_a church_n only_o the_o catholic_a what_o have_v this_o particular_a church_n to_o do_v to_o meddle_v with_o he_o more_o than_o any_o other_o we_o must_v have_v catholic_a church-officer_n to_o cast_v he_o out_o who_o be_v such_o not_o only_a actu_fw-la primo_fw-la but_o actu_fw-la secundo_fw-la which_o you_o say_v no_o minister_n be_v to_o another_o that_o be_v not_o of_o his_o particular_a congregation_n unless_o he_o be_v call_v to_o it_o but_o to_o be_v sure_o this_o man_n will_v never_o call_v you_o to_o it_o who_o then_o can_v give_v you_o a_o call_v so_o that_o this_o man_n can_v come_v to_o be_v reform_v and_o yet_o he_o may_v go_v up_o and_o down_o to_o any_o church_n i_o be_o a_o christian_n therefore_o give_v i_o the_o ordinance_n excommunicate_v i_o be_o not_o for_o none_o can_v excommunicate_v he_o unless_o all_o the_o officer_n of_o the_o church_n in_o the_o world_n shall_v meet_v to_o cast_v he_o out_o if_o you_o say_v 194._o which_o you_o affirm_v diatr_n 194._o where_o he_o first_o come_v to_o be_v baptize_v of_o that_o particular_a church_n he_o be_v a_o member_n and_o that_o officer_n have_v power_n etc._n etc._n no_o sir_n i_o can_v believe_v this_o doctrine_n that_o my_o baptise_v of_o another_o make_v he_o member_n to_o our_o particular_a church_n i_o have_v have_v three_o of_o my_o child_n baptize_v by_o minister_n who_o never_o look_v on_o i_o as_o member_n to_o their_o church_n though_o i_o dwell_v in_o the_o town_n i_o have_v do_v the_o same_o for_o other_o be_v call_v to_o it_o yet_o none_o of_o my_o member_n yourself_o acknowledge_v baptism_n do_v not_o make_v a_o member_n of_o a_o visible_a church_n revie_n mr._n hooker_n c._n ●_o than_o not_o of_o this_o particular_a visible_a church_n if_o you_o say_v diat_a so_o you_o express_v your_o mind_n pag._n 194._o diat_a but_o a_o christian_n must_v not_o do_v thus_o he_o must_v join_v to_o a_o particular_a church_n the_o question_n be_v not_o what_o he_o must_v do_v but_o what_o he_o will_v do_v will_v not_o you_o baptize_v his_o child_n or_o he_o unless_o he_o will_v join_v if_o not_o you_o have_v say_v enough_o 3._o to_o be_v a_o church-member_n seem_v to_o be_v more_o than_o a_o christian_a i._n e._n a_o christian_a member_n of_o such_o a_o society_n and_o w●●king_n under_o such_o a_o policy_n and_o that_o policy_n suppose_v officer_n you_o say_v there_o be_v no_o essential_a homogeneal_a church_n exist_v without_o officer_n mention_v in_o the_o scripture_n it_o be_v a_o fancy_n you_o say_v and_o repeat_v it_o again_o 77._o review_n master_n hooker_n pag._n 75_o 77._o oppose_v mr._n hooker_n a_o church-member_n than_o must_v be_v under_o officer_n under_o such_o a_o policy_n as_o in_o the_o catholic_a church_n but_o how_o that_o can_v be_v unless_o he_o be_v a_o member_n of_o some_o particular_a church_n which_o be_v a_o member_n of_o the_o catholic_a as_o you_o say_v i_o know_v not_o the_o catholic_a church_n have_v no_o policy_n extra_fw-la ecclesias_fw-la particulares_fw-la the_o hard_a matter_n be_v the_o apostle_n baptise_v which_o be_v often_o abledge_v this_o make_v i_o doubtful_a on_o the_o other_o side_n only_o these_o thought_n i_o have_v bad_a 1._o they_o have_v such_o power_n as_o we_o have_v none_o they_o can_v exercise_v their_o power_n any_o where_n without_o any_o call_n paul_n be_v a_o actual_a officer_n to_o the_o jailor_n and_o so_o other_o apostle_n where_o they_o come_v hence_o they_o can_v reach_v they_o in_o case_n of_o irregular_a walk_n without_o a_o second_o call_v but_o so_o much_o can_v we_o 2._o i_o do_v not_o remember_v they_o baptize_v any_o single_a person_n but_o such_o as_o be_v member_n of_o the_o jewish_a church_n which_o be_v a_o gospel-church_n under_o ceremony_n for_o other_o they_o baptize_v so_o many_o at_o once_o for_o aught_o i_o can_v see_v that_o may_v lay_v the_o foundation_n of_o a_o particular_a church_n the_o jailor_n act._n 16._o 32._o how_o many_o be_v in_o his_o house_n i_o know_v not_o he_o and_z all_o his_o house_n believe_v in_o god_n so_o cornelius_n there_o be_v company_n enough_o to_o begin_v a_o particular_a church_n for_o aught_o i_o can_v see_v though_o how_o many_o its_o uncertain_a paul_n and_o pver_fw-la officer_n to_o these_o in_o beginning_n some_o thing_n may_v be_v extraordinary_a as_o be_v they_o officer_n extraordinary_a i_o easy_o see_v difficulty_n e._n in_o n._n e._n if_o one_o or_o two_o indian_n shall_v seem_v to_o be_v convert_v but_o because_o their_o language_n can_v join_v to_o a_o english_a church_n shall_v now_o the_o minister_n delay_n to_o baptize_v he_o but_o then_o there_o be_v this_o also_o if_o these_o two_o or_o one_o shall_v prove_v vile_a and_o scandalous_a what_o shall_v that_o minister_n do_v with_o he_o other_o scruple_n about_o this_o i_o can_v cast_v in_o but_o it_o concern_v not_o my_o question_n the_o next_o fault_n you_o find_v be_v that_o require_v a_o explicit_a covenant_n to_o such_o a_o church_n i_o seem_v not_o only_o to_o contradict_v myself_o but_o also_o to_o unchurch_n most_o of_o our_o english_a church_n here_o i_o must_v stay_v a_o while_n have_v occasion_n give_v to_o look_v back_o into_o your_o epistle_n what_o do_v i_o hear_v of_o contradiction_n again_o you_o have_v a_o strange_a art_n in_o find_v out_o contradiction_n but_o how_o come_v this_o about_o it_o seem_v i_o require_v a_o explicit_a covenant_n but_o sir_n be_v you_o sure_o the_o word_n explicit_a be_v in_o the_o definition_n nay_o you_o be_v sure_a it_o be_v not_o can_v there_o be_v no_o covenant_n in_o a_o church_n but_o explicit_a i_o suppose_v yes_o and_o i_o suppose_v you_o think_v so_o also_o so_o do_v appollonius_n we_o will_v hear_v he_o speak_v present_o be_v this_o fai●e_a deal_n to_o force_v a_o word_n upon_o i_o when_o i_o have_v clear_o before_o express_v my_o self_n another_o way_n i_o be_o far_o enough_o then_o from_o contradiction_n or_o from_o unchurch_v the_o faithful_a congregation_n of_o england_n though_o they_o have_v not_o a_o expl●●●_n covenant_n yourself_o p._n 25._o mention_v the_o external_a covenant_n of_o the_o church_n but_o what_o you_o mean_v by_o it_o i_o know_v not_o you_o be_v a_o passage_n in_o my_o boistle_n which_o be_v this_o some_o minister_n scorn_v the_o notion_n that_o a_o explic●ie_a covenant_n be_v the_o form_n of_o a_o church_n visible_a and_o some_o professor_n be_v so_o rigid_a for_o it_o that_o without_o it_o they_o deny_v all_o church_n of_o the_o latter_a sort_n be_v mr._n hooker_n say_v you_o sir_n you_o wrong_v he_o exceed_o and_o i_o wonder_v a_o man_n of_o your_o grace_n shall_v do_v thus_o when_o he_o have_v so_o express_o declare_v his_o mind_n to_o the_o concrary_a to_o your_o knowledge_n the_o next_o word_n you_o mention_v show_v as_o much_o and_o in_o his_o epistle_n p._n 11._o he_o speak_v as_o plainesy_v but_o of_o he_o anon_o that_o passage_n shall_v clear_v i_o from_o make_v no_o church_n but_o where_o there_o be_v a_o explicit_a covenant_n i_o see_v in_o some_o congregation_n where_o there_o be_v both_o visible_a and_o real_a saint_n as_o we_o may_v judge_v when_o the_o lord_n supper_n be_v to_o be_v administer_v some_o professor_n will_v not_o join_v in_o the_o ordinance_n for_o want_v of_o that_o so_o far_o as_o i_o can_v learn_v suppose_v they_o be_v not_o in_o a_o right_a churchway_n now_o this_o i_o can_v not_o approve_v of_o since_o there_o be_v so_o many_o christian_n to_o depart_v from_o the_o ordinance_n upon_o such_o a_o ground_n in_o my_o own_o congregation_n i_o thus_o practice_v some_o of_o other_o parish_n have_v desire_v to_o join_v with_o we_o at_o the_o lord_n supper_n if_o we_o have_v not_o know_v they_o well_o i_o have_v desire_v they_o to_o bring_v a_o testimony_n from_o their_o minister_n and_o they_o have_v do_v so_o other_o who_o we_o know_v well_o i_o have_v not_o desire_v it_o but_o admit_v these_o to_o the_o lord_n supper_n yet_o they_o be_v under_o no_o explicit_a covenant_n but_o a_o implicit_a covenant_n i_o know_v they_o close_v with_o their_o pastor_n in_o their_o church_n if_o need_n have_v be_v i_o will_v have_v baptize_v their_o child_n have_v they_o bring_v they_o to_o i_o i_o hope_v now_o you_o be_v convince_v afterward_o you_o say_v again_o i_o recall_v it_o because_o i_o say_v that_o this_o expliciteness_n be_v almost_o essential_a to_o the_o government_n of_o the_o

and_o out_o of_o he_o i_o will_v give_v you_o a_o answer_n and_o show_v you_o the_o reason_n be_v not_o as_o you_o say_v mr._n hooker_n thus_o the_o faithful_a congregation_n of_o england_n be_v true_a church_n member_n that_o come_v commend_v from_o such_o church_n to_o we_o here_o so_o that_o it_o do_v appear_v to_o the_o judgement_n of_o the_o church_n 11._o preface_n p._n 11._o whence_o they_o come_v that_o they_o be_v by_o t●em_n approve_v and_o not_o scandalous_a they_o ought_v to_o be_v receive_v to_o church_n communion_n with_o we_o as_o member_n of_o other_o church_n with_o we_o in_o new_a england_n in_o like_a case_n so_o commend_v and_o approve_v hence_o then_o sir_n be_v the_o plain_a reason_n the_o people_n that_o go_v from_o hence_o do_v quite_o depart_v from_o these_o church_n so_o that_o they_o never_o come_v more_o under_o the_o inspection_n of_o the_o officer_n and_o church●s_n here_o they_o n●ver_o b●ing_v letter_n testimonial_a from_o you_o to_o show_v they_o be_v 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believe_v i_o will_v give_v you_o my_o reason_n a_o near_a friend_n of_o i_o in_o new_a england_n live_v divers_a mile_n from_o mr._n hooker_n have_v occasion_n to_o be_v in_o his_o town_n on_o the_o sabbath_n my_o friend_n be_v a_o minister_n i_o can_v tell_v whether_o at_o that_o time_n in_o office_n or_o no_o to_o the_o church_n in_o the_o town_n where_o he_o live_v mr._n hooker_n get_v he_o to_o preach_v in_o the_o forenoon_n in_o his_o church_n at_o that_o time_n there_o be_v a_o sacrament_n in_o the_o church_n my_o friend_n when_o he_o have_v do_v preach_v b●ing_v sad_a and_o oppress_v in_o his_o spirit_n go_v down_o out_o of_o the_o desk_n and_o will_v not_o have_v stay_v the_o sacrament_n but_o mr._n hoo_n step_n after_o he_o and_o clap_n hold_v on_o his_o shoulder_n and_o pull_v he_o back_o again_o and_o make_v he_o stay_v the_o sacrament_n my_o friend_n tell_v i_o it_o be_v the_o best_a sacrament_n that_o ever_o he_o enjoy_v this_o practice_n of_o he_o clear_v he_o from_o 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church_n of_o christ_n and_o will_v you_o walk_v with_o the_o member_n of_o 〈◊〉_d according_a to_o christ_n rule_n will_v you_o subject_n to_o all_o christ_n ordinance_n i_o pray_v why_o may_v i_o not_o demand_v these_o consider_v what_o apollonius_n ames_n mr_n hudson_n have_v say_v the_o light_n of_o nature_n will_v carry_v as_o much_o for_o if_o this_o man_n will_v not_o own_v i_o for_o his_o officer_n if_o he_o will_v not_o join_v with_o the_o church_n if_o not_o submit_v to_o ordinance_n what_o reason_n have_v i_o in_o particular_a to_o baptize_v his_o child_n or_o i_o and_o the_o church_n in_o particular_a to_o take_v more_o care_n of_o he_o then_o any_o other_o church_n if_o you_o say_v by_o his_o requite_v baptism_n of_o i_o he_o profess_v all_o this_o no_o sir_n by_o no_o mean_n i_o have_v