Selected quad for the lemma: christian_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
christian_n	apostle_n	church_n	creed_n	1,331	5	10.2664	5	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A64381	A true account of a conference held about religion at London, Septemb. 29, 1687 between A. Pulton, Jesuit, and Tho. Tenison, D.D. as also of that which led to it, and followed after it / by Tho. Tenison.	Tenison, Thomas, 1636-1715.	1687 (1687)	Wing T723; ESTC R18602	49,387	102

kept my Word of sending my first Copy to you and have not sent abroad one single Line but after your Receipt of this seeing you have begun on this manner I will let the World know the whole Truth so far as my Memory with all due helps will serve me and from Truth I would not willingly swerve a Tittle For the Story of my going to the Savoy to ask your Pardon it is made very common though I do not charge you with it and if you be curious about Places and Persons I will name some of them to you I never said I came to give you a second Challenge Nor did I come to beg of you to forbear your talking of this Matter in your Pulpit but to Expostulate with you about the unfitness of that way and to understand whether you would keep to the Method you agreed on at the end of our rambling Talk rather than Conference and to tell you that in my Judgment it was most becoming The Jesuit your Witness did not differ from me in this Opinion nor Doctor Claget who was mine I did purpose as I told you to send something to you about your Account but having perused it I perceived you might by comparing it with mine see what you omitted what you mistook and what as to me it seems you sometimes added I will therefore save you the trouble of my Notes upon your Narrative though perhaps in due time I may help others who may not carry my Account in their Heads with such Animadversions I believe in this as you do that it may be fit to Print the whole for the quieting of People who are as yet in suspence and seeing you put me in Mind of it I resolve by that way to ease my self of the trouble of transcribing Copies You have my Letters and I yours and your Account and with this I send you mine together with a pursuit of my Discourse about your three first Quotations Do with them what you please and write what you please further and I will take the like freedom My Stationer which I did but just now know of is at Oxford so that I must elsewhere apply my self but this I promise you that as soon as I send any thing to the Press I will give charge to the Printer to conveigh to you by way of due notice the first Sheet that shall be wrought off All things on my part shall be fair and I am not your Enemy unless which God forbid you will account me so for telling the Truth but can still very heratily Subscribe my self SIR Your Friend as far as oblig'd by the Gospel of our Blessed Saviour Tho. Tenison Mr. Pulton 's PAPER sent in his first Letter with Dr. Tenison 's Animadversions upon it Mr. Pulton's Paper AS the concern I had that the Truth might appear to a Soul that was in search of it made me willing to enter on a Discourse of that Subject with you so I humbly beg that nothing but Charity and a true Sense of Zeal may appear in what may happen to be writt by either of us not to the Scandal but to the Edification of all such as may peruse our Papers You having therefore been pleas'd in our late Conference to assign the Holy Scriptures for the Rule of Faith I desired of you the Favour to know what assurance you had that the Volumes you call Holy Scripture are the undoubted Word of God and this having been the main Point of our four hours Discourse I humbly crave a more clear and positive Answer then I could then obtain You were pleas'd to say the Bible had been handed down to you from the Apostles Then I desired the Favour to know who they were that had so handed it down to you you replied the Universal Church Whereupon I demanded what you meant by the Universal Church You answered That you mean't all those several Bodies who make up the number of Christians Then I farther pressed to know whether all these made up one true Church or no. You said there was something true in each of them but would assign none void of great corruption Upon which I replied That the Volumes which wholy relied on corrupted Authority could have no assurance of being the pure true and certain Word of God. And here we stuck near 2 hours I never being able to obtain a satisfactory Answer I humbly therefore crave to be satisfied 10. Whither receiving the Scripture from the Universal Church you have received a Canon common to all distinct Bodies of Christians If not that you farther explicate what you mean by taking the Scripture from the Universal Church 20. How the Universal Church consisting in Members disagreing in Faith can give you a true and certain Rule of Faith. 30. If when you begann you pretended Reformation there was any Church in being which had that precise Canon you have now and explicated it as you do If so be pleas'd to assign where it was and how you took your Scripture from it As for what related to Transubstantiation and Real Presence it having been a Question thrown in by the by I desire it may be remitted to the second place and having cleared the present difficultie where the stresse of the Discourse lay we will then pass to particular Controversies if you please Dr. Tenison 's short Notes upon this PAPER 1. IT calls the Boy a Soul who was in search after Truth whilst at the same time Mr. P. was satisfy'd that the Boy had never acquainted his Father his Master his Minister with his Doubts till after he had been at Mass and was by his Master and Mistress accused of having been guilty of unsufferable lying and neglect of Business and of the growth of both since he had had Conversation with a Romish Apprentice and Mr. P. and others of that way It is not a thing to be easily credited that a Soul that is in sincere and diligent search after Truth of Doctrine should at the same time become more sinful than formerly in the invention of Lyes and more sowre in Nature and more faithless in the duty of his Calling 2 Mr. P calls the Rule of Faith and the proving the Holy Bible to be that Rule the main Point Whereas it was indeed the Point he desir'd to begin with but it was not that which the Boy had mention'd but the inconsistence of Luther about the Sacraments and his pretended Colloquie with the Devil which therefore was in true order to be begun with But in this there is too much Art for the People may be amused by talk about the Copies of the Bible and the Tradition of them and carried into the dark and so be led the more easily by those who with the greatest Confidence call themselves Guides seeing they are not themselves Masters of critical History but they are more capable of more particular Points as Ex. gr of the Communion in one kind which the People can find

to assign the Holy Scriptures To which A. P. reply'd that there were c two things incumbent on the Doctor to prove 1. That the Books which he called the Scripture were truly such 2. That when so prov'd they were of themselves a sufficient Rule But to the second Point nothing was said To the first the Doctor replied that their Bible had been handed down from the Apostles A. P. desired to know by what Hands The Doctor answered by the Testimony of d all the World Turks Jews Gentiles and Christians But A. P. urging to know from what immediate Hands the Church of England had received them when she began to reform The Doctor answered From the Universal Church and that he meant by Universal Church all those e different Bodies who make up the whole Number of Christians Then A. P. demanded Whether those different Bodies of Christians made one true Church or no Or whether some one Part of them were so The Doctor tho much press'd would specify no Part which he acknowledged free from Corruption Upon that A. P. desired to know how the Doctor could make out that his Bible was the pure and uncorrupt Word of God if all those from whose Testimony he took it were corrupted and consequently false Witnesses and what Assurance he had f the sense of Holy Scripture being as he said depraved the Letter remained pure Here g a pleasant School-Master diverted the Auditory with a Picture as he said of the Blessed Trinity and offer'd it A. P. with wry Mouths and Antick Gestures But A. P. saying he saw no Reason why God appearing to Daniel under the Figure of an old Man might not be so painted provided one meant not to delineate him specie propriâ He return'd to the Doctor and press'd his forementioned Argument but the Schoolmaster continuing to give Diversion to the People and throw in impertinent Questions A. P. desired him to be silent saying he came not to dispute with a Buffoon but a Doctor which was ill taken Dr. T. read a Lesson of Charity upon that occasion endeavouring to prove that A. P. had violated the Holy-day And when Mr. M. said in A. P's Defence that h S. Paul had used as sharp Language in a like occasion The Doctor replied that if A. P. was St. Paul he might so do When the Doctor had done his i Harangue A. P. returned to his Argument and much importun'd the Doctor to make out how he was assured his Bible was the pure Word of God and not as full of Corruption and Falshood as he believed those to be from whom he received it Here the Doctor call'd k Mr. M. from the Window whither A. P. had desired him to retire that no Body might argue against the Doctor but himself and instead of answering the Difficulty began a private Parly with Mr. M. And l A. P. could never obtain any thing like a Satisfactory Answer to his Difficulty propos'd In the end he answer'd the calling the Authority of Scripture in question disposed to Atheism A. P. reply'd he believed it might in their Principle who having taken all Infallibility from the Church could assert none for the Scripture This Debate lasted upwards of 2 Hours when the Doctor threw in several By-questions about St. Peter's being at Rome m which when A. P. was ready to prove n the Doctor passed to the Real Presence and Transubstantion A. P. demanded of the Doctor whom he would be judg'd by not being able at this time to obtain any Answer to the first and chief Query The Doctor replied by the Universal Church A. P. demanded whether by the Universal Church now in being or by that which had been in the four first Centuries The Doctor said that of the four first Centuries A. P. asking how we should know the Judgment of those Times The Doctor answered by the Testimony of the Fathers then living Then A. P. naming several and proffering to begin with which the Doctor pleased o he desired to hear St. Ambrose A. P. thereupon read one out of his 4th Book de Sacramentis which the Doctor noted down and required A. P. to put his Hand to it which he refus'd for the present but said as soon as he had produced his whole Evidence he would then sign it But the Doctor plainly refused to hear any more saying that the rest would prove like that which he believed to be of a Spurious Author To which A. P. replied that if he doubted of that Work he would cite another of the same Author 's to the very same Intent of an unquestionable Work. But the Doctor refused absolutely to hear it And continued to press A. P. to subscribe He answered that he would when all his Witnesses were heard and with much ado after about 3 quarters of an hour after twenty endeavours he obliged the Doctor to hear of Justinus his Apology to Antoninus Pius p but that the Doctor would not note down or hear one word more which seeming unreasonable to Mr. M. he asked the Doctor using his own Instance whether or no if one should come to pay him a q a Sum of Mony and the first piece might appear somewhat dubious he would refuse the rest upon that account especially if the Party was content to change it in the very place Now this Paper it is which has made all the great Noise as though the Doctor having summ'd up the whole Discourse A. P. should refuse to sign what he had asserted In this Debate the Parties rising up the Doctor was pleased to say that r the Papists were by their Principles Breakers of their Word and proved against A. P. thus You believe yours to be the only saving Church but you are bound to save all you can therefore you are bound to break your Word given in your Paper of Rules of your Schools of not tampering with your Scholars in Matters of Religion A. P. replied that it was a very injurious Assertion and prov'd no more against him than his Majesty which he thus proved His Majesty believes his to be the only Saving Church but his Majesty being Head of his People is bound to endeavour to save them as much as A. P. to save his Scholars therefore according to the Doctor 's Argument his Majesty is bound to break his Word given to his People of not forcing their Consciences This Reflection was ill taken and A. P. said he was willing to believe the Doctor spake it not with any such Intention but added that it was ill done to vent such Propositions whence naturally and unavoidably ensued so bad Illations Then A. P. answered directly that no body was bound always to do all the good possible And that to teach gratis Learning with the Fear of God was very well done although one medled not with Religion and defied the Doctor to bring the Scholar where note that the Boy on whose account the Dispute was held was no Scholar that ever heard him touch a

well as that of Dr. T 's may be the better known I have here inserted part of a Letter sent to Dr. T. from that Reverend Person Octob. the 13th 87. Reverend Sir VVHEN the Boy came to me with his Master I looked upon him and methought I saw Stubbornness Ill-nature and Sullenness in his Face I asked him several Questions but had much ado to get an Answer from him To me he seem'd to intimate that he was already gone over to them Something I dropt accidentally about Succession which he laid hold of and with a kind of scornful Smile demanded what Succession we could shew I told him both for Men and Doctrine and proved it to him But after that he gave me little or no Answer to any thing I asked him I made him promise me to consider of what I had said and to come to me again which after some Demurr he did but never came I suppose you have an Account of the Sermon that was preach'd at the Mass-House in the Savoy on Sunday last c. The Publication of the Conference will be absolutely necessary I was at Black-Friars yesterday and heard that a Man having heard that the Victory went on the Papists side was turn'd Papist upon it This I had from the Man's Neighbour who ask'd me about that Conference but I rectified his Mistake I am SIR Yours to command A. Horneck Note Dr. H. was not consulted till Octob. 13. which confirms sully both what Mr. U. had said of J. S. and Dr. T. had observed of him These Numbers relate to Mr. P 's Paragraphs 4. He makes Dr. T. to say that Luther's Works were not in Quarto but in Fotio instead of saying in four or in six Folio's which small things I would not note if they did not show that a Thread of Mistake sometimes wilful and sometimes not does run through his whole Narrative He goes on saying that he had not brought the Book into the Pulpit we never talk'd of it but as shown privately in his Chamber and by this way of excusing his Aequivocation he exposes it 10. He says Dr. T. appeal'd to the Greeks and Bohemians But certainly to say as Dr. T. did that there were amongst them Christians professing the Faith of the Apostles Creed and disclaiming the Errors of Rome before Luther rose is not appealing to them 12. What Mr. P. says of Dr. T 's boast of having ten thousand Pounds worth of Books if his Amanuensis has not mistaken in the figuring will not be easily credited 13. Mr. P. would not have said what he does of St. Peter's 25 years if he had not mistaken Dr. T. who never deny'd that St. Peter was ever at Rome but spake of the 25 Years before he came thither not out of Eusebius's Cronicon as Mr. P. imagin'd tho in that Book the 25 in the Latin is not in the Greek and Eusebius elsewhere contradicts that Computation but out of a passage in Lactantius which perhaps being formerly run away with without due attention to its meaning might occasion that Blunder in Chronology if Pope Damasus had not a Finger in that Corruption 14. He speaks of Dr. T 's being judg'd by the four first Centuries which is not the whole Truth he lik'd them best but would not be judg'd by them for he took in Universal Testimony separate from Authority 15. Mr. P. affirms That he had read all Ecclesiastical History and had Volumes of Notes relating to it Much good may his Common-place-Book do him if it be taken out of some such Authors as are cited in his Speculum Anacletus's Epistle St. Cyprian de caenâ Domini St. Cyril of Jerusalem's Apology against Ruffinus who flourished not till about Anno 390. Whilst St. Cyril flourish'd Anno 350. he may call his Notes Collections but they are properly Weedings 15. He puts upon Dr. T. a false thing of denying that any Bishops came from England to the Council of Lateran Dr. T. is positive upon Inquiry that this is a false and unfair way of Apologizing for his own Mistake by inventing one for him who charg'd him with it Dr. T. only ask'd a few Questions about that Council and set Father Walsh against Father Pulton shewing how far they were from Unity about what was and what was not a General Council Mr. Pulton's Guide tho not every Jesuite's Dr. T. well knew that most of the Roman Communion have insisted on that Council as General tho it be not so And he well remembers he told Mr. P. he would upon occasion hold him to it seeing that Council teaches the Deposing Doctrine which Doctrine notwithstanding Mr. P. disclaimed at his going forth out of the second Room 16 17. He is much concern'd at Dr. T 's insisting on one place in St. Ambrose Dr. T. insisted upon that for a reason Mr. P. might know but was not aware of and it was this That Passage out of St. Ambrose had been by a certain Priest translated into English and given to a Person of Honour in order to Conversion and this Paper has been long tho in private manner carried about the Town as likewise some disjointed Passages transcribed from Dr. Taylour about the Real Presence which taken by themselves do give a most abusive Representation of that Doctor 's Sense This Place being then the Engine of Converters it was fit to be expos'd If Mr. P. pleases I will name Persons and Places to him 17. Observe here the Fidelity either of Mr. P's Memory or his Conscience He savs the Doctor told a Story of some Priest at Rome who having pronounced the Words of Consecration was heard to say aloud that he believ'd not as the Roman Church oblig'd Whereas the Story as before repeated was about the Courtesans over-hearing the Priests say Bread thou art and Bread thou shalt be 18. Mr. P. leaving out what was answered to the place in J. Martyr says the Doctor would not declare what he believed in the Point of the Real Presence and yet Dr. T. repeated the Words of the Catechism and said he would abide by the true Sense of them 18. He talks of knocking the Pulpit which words he never nam'd there What Priests act most there is known enough to the World. 19. Dr. T. is said to have asked Mr. P. what Verse it was wherein it was written If he hear not the Church Whereas he appeals to all the Company if he did not ask him in what Evangelist it was and he could not tell and instead of that Mr. P. says of himself that he did not tell He had said more than was fit upon other occasions why was he not in humour to say what was fit here He adds Dr. T. turning from place to place found it Whereas he named the Chapter and Verse before he began to turn and the reason of his turning was manifest for he could not read the Print by the Light they had till he was forc'd to pull out his Spectacles These