Selected quad for the lemma: christian_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
christian_n	act_n	church_n	communion_n	1,604	5	9.1682	5	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
B23579	A Reply of two of the brethren to A. S. wherein you have observations on his considerations, annotations, &c. upon the apologeticall narration : with a plea for libertie of conscience for the apologists church way, against the cavils of the said A. S., formerly called M. S. to A. S. : humbly submitted to the judgements of all rationall and moderate men in the world : with a short survey of W. R. his Grave confutation of the separation, and some modest and innocent touches on the letter from Zeland and Mr. Parker's from New-England.	Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665.; Steuart, Adam. Some observations and annotations upon the Apologetical narration. Selections.; Parker, Thomas, 1595-1677.	1644 (1644)	Wing G1198	108,381	124

judge whether that be not an act of externall power without the Church If it be replied No because that Church did implicitly consent in yeelding their Elders for members of that Presbytery We reply That if either your publick Law constrains that Church upon penalty Invitum dicitur quod quis vel coactus vel per ignorantiam admittit Arist Eth. l. 3. c. 1. Kecker Praecog Syst Eth. against their light to suffer their Elders to sit in the Classicall Presbytery then that Church doth not freely consent or if that Church without constraint doth consent for want of light as it must be supposed if a Classis upon debate be found to be besides the word this ignorant act of that Church is an unwilling or involuntary act and so no free consent And so the Classis according to A. S. his distinction is like a Magistrate which is a Bishop without and about that Church But good A. S. we know it is an easie matter to distinguish the Magistrate Sect. 12 into such an executive coercitive externall power as you speake of but we would fain see you demonstrate him into it and then A. S. and M. S. should be no more two but one S. We know not how to transform distinctions into demonstrations His second Distinction is of the Subject of this power the Magistrate whom he makes two-fold truly Christian and not truly Christian But 1. I would faine know by what Touchstone A. S. will try his gold in this case I mean judge of the truth of Christianitie in a Magistrate It appeares from page 50. of his discourse that he hath no mind to grant his truth of Christianity unto a Magistrate that is either Lutheran Anabaptist Socinian or Papist Any of these misprisions in Christianity are as sufficient in A. S. his judgement as in ours to keep the sword of that power we speake of out of the Magistrates hand And as for a Magistrate whose judgement shall be infected perfected reason and truth would say with Apologisme or the great hatred of his soule independencie I make no question but he in the Comique terme should bee exclusissimus from this capacitie or right above all the rest But let us goe on with the man in the termes of his own addresse to Sect. 13 the Apologists in the same place If he saith that by a Magistrate truly Christian he understand an orthodox Magistrate what if he had one or two errors would he yet permit him to be orthodox and truly Christian or not Till A. S. here specifies Sermones generales non movent his own rule for my selfe untill I shall be otherwise informed by himselfe I shall make use of my reason to beleeve that by a Magistrate truly Christian A. S. onely mean● a Magistrate who in his judgement is Presbyteriall and that this qualification of Presbyterialisme and truth of Christianitie in a Magistrate are against all contradictions and counter-poysings whatsoever termini aequipollentes in his Logique And if this be his meaning the king to be sure hath none of his power as yet in actu exercito and jure in re nor hath the Parliament at least for ought A. S. or the kingdom knoweth any whit more of it then the King And whatsoever it hath done hitherto by any executive coercive externall power about the Church or Church-affairs in which kinde it hath done very much depends as touching the validity and justifiableness of it upon this supposition that it Presbyterializeth Whence it followeth that he that cannot or doth not believe that the Parliament is of a Classique inclination cannot with the leave of A. S. his distinction judge them to have done lawfully or warrantably any thing that they have done hitherto about or for the Church The truth is that till A. S. will please to define what manner of Magistrate hee must be that shall pass the test of his distinction for truly Christian wee are constrained to suspend our bounty in conferring that executive coercive externall power about the Church upon any man Nor do I make much question but that wee shall have twenty Distinctions more before we shall obtain that Definition But of all the three distinctions here upon the stage the best dancer Sect. 14 is yet behind This Power or Authority saith he belongs actually and in effect in actu exercito jure in re it 's very long me thinks ere wee hear to whom it belongs to true Christian Magistrates but to others potentially in actu signato jure in rem only untill they become truly Christian 1. Though I have many times heard of the distinction in actu exercito in actu signato yet I never heard of any thing belonging to a person in actu exercito but that belonged to him and that per prius in actu signato Hee to whom the principle or power of acting doth not belong cannot stand ingaged for the exercise or acting of such a power 2. My soul longs for the Summer fruit of a good reason from A. S. Sect. 15 why any power about the Church and for the Church should not belong actually and in effect in actu exercito jure in re and with as many other proper unproper necessary unnecessary sober ridiculous expressions as he pleaseth as well to a Magistrate not yet truly Christian as to him that is such Hath not an Heathen or Heterodox Magistrate a lawfulness of power to do presently this day this hour to morrow and so forth toties quoties as much good to and for the Church or Churches of Christ within his jurisdiction or dominion as he could have if he were truly Christian Do acts of justice bounty grace towards the Churches of Christ any whit more defile a Magistrate how far from truly Christian soever then acts of the same nature performed unto his other subjects The Kings and those that were in authority in Pauls dayes were generally all the kings without exception far from being truly Christian and yet was it not lawfull for them to interpose with their Authority or Power that the Churches of Christ in their dominions might lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty If not then was that exhortation of his 1 Tim. 2. 2. to be laid up in Lavender for some hundreds of yeers after it was given or else the benefit and blessing the obtaining whereof by prayer is made the ground of the exhortation must have been made over in the intentions of those that had so prayed unto their posterities after many generations A. S. may choose which of the two hee will believe for my part I shall not be his corrivall in either Yee have heard A. S. his Distinctions for a coercive power about the Church in a Civill Magistrate Demonstrationes autem ubi But where are his proofs Quas non invenio usquam esse puto nusquam What I finde not any where I believe to be no where I have searched and that

Churches more holy then the Congregationall they are far more guilty of Schisme and Separation then their Brethren here spoken of For then they are at liberty in point of conscience to come over and joyn with them when as the other are in bands and fetters of conscience and cannot pass unto them Their Brethren would gladly come over unto them but cannot they can come over unto these but will not It is the will not the act that makes Schisme and Separation Fourthly we do not see as deep as you have laid the charge wherein the Apologists do any whit more symbolize with Convents Monasteries or Orders amongst the Papists then you and your friends You tell them that all their Churches believe one Doctrine together with you and that every one of these Churches hath one Minister as the Popish Convents a particular Abbot or Prior. Wee pray you do not all your Churches believe one Doctrine together and hath not every one of your Churches one Minister Wherein then lies the difference between you and them or wherein do they symbolize more with Convents or Monasteries then your self Nay fifthly and lastly as if you had quite forgotten your rhomb you tacitely couple your self with those Popish Convents Monasteries and Orders in one ignoble consideration from which you acquit your Brethren They only differ say you to them in this that yee have no Generall or any thing answerable thereunto to keep you in unity and conformity plainly implying that your Presbyterians have viz. their soveraign Judicatory So that if this your reason should but take place and be held valid it is your Presbyterian party not the party Apologizing that ought to suffer the non-toleration you speak of it being they not these that are the great symbolizers with St Francis and St Dominick To your twelfth Reason we have given answer upon answer formerly His 12. Reason answered as first where we considered of the examples of the Kings of Judah and shewed how little they contribute to the claim of coercive power in the Magistrate to take away Heresies Schismes Superstitions c. Secondly where we argued against such a power by severall demonstrations Thirdly where we gave an account also how Toleration is no way either to Schisme Heresie c. So that that there is not one apex or ieta of this Reason remaining unanswered The Logico-Divinity of your thirteenth Reason consisteth in this His 13. Reason Answered Enthymeme If we have but one God one Christ and one Lord one Spirit one Faith one Baptisme whereby we enter into the Church and are one Body we ought to have one Communion whereby to be spiritually fed and one Discipline to be ruled by and if so then ought not the Apologists to be tolerated We answer that neither doth your inference or conclusion here at all follow from your premisses We have all you speak of one one and one and in regard of that multiplied unitie we ought as you say to have one Communion and one Discipline But first not necessarily that Communion or that Discipline which are of Classique inspiration no more then those which are either of Papall or Episcopall recommendation because though wee judge these two latter spirits more sphalmaticall erroneous and dangerous then the first yet wee cannot think that either the Pope or Bishops or both together have so ingrossed the spirit of erreour and fallibility but that they have left of that anointing more then enough to initiate all other Orders Societies and Professions of men in the world Secondly though wee ought to have one Communion and Discipline yet ought wee to be led into this unity by the hand of an Angel of light not to be frighted into it by an evill angel of fear and terrour Thirdly that duty which lies upon all Christians to have but one Communion and Discipline amongst them is no dispensation unto any party or number of them to smite their Brethren with the fist of uncharitableness or to dismount them from their ministeriall standings in the Church because they will not or rather cannot knit and joyn in the same Communion and Discipline with them Nay fourthly that very tye of duty which lies upon all Christians to have but one and the same Communion and Discipline amongst them carries this ingagement upon them all along with it to shew all love to use all manner of gentleness and long suffering towards those that are contrary minded to them either in the one or in the other since love is not only a sodering and uniting affection but further commends the person in whom it is found as one to whom God hath appeared and who hath been taught by him Therefore fifthly and lastly to make the ingagement that lies upon all Christians to have but one Communion and Discipline a ground and reason why such as differ from others about these should be evill intreated suppressed kept under hatches or the like is as if a man should plead that naturall affection which a parent ows unto his children for a ground and motive why he should sharply scourge them when they are sick and weak His fourteenth Reason is of an unknown strength at least to me His 14. Reason answered If I were a Magistrate I should never the more know how to prepare to battell against the Apologists or any other godly person for the sound of this trumpet Surely of all the rest this Reason will never be accessary to the undoing of these men However let a poor man be heard in his cause The Reason then with all the help it is capable of riseth up but thus If Churches have Disciplines or Governments different in their species then the Churches must be different in their species also But the consequent is false since there is but one Church Ergo Apologisme is intolerable They that can gather this conclusion out of the premisses may very well hope to gather Grapes of Thorns and Figs of Thistles The consequent in this argument which the Disputer saith is false is this Churches must be different in their species If the meaning of this consequent be that there is an absolute necessity that Churches should differ specie one from another the Disputant is in the truth in saying the consequent is false Or if the meaning be that Churches ought to differ specie one from another the same verdict may still pass upon it But upon that supposition which is made in the Antecedent of this argument viz. that these Churches have Disciplines or Governments different in their species the consequent is not only true but necessarily true and that upon the Disputants own ground which is that all collective bodies that are governed are differenced specie by their different governments But be the Consequent or be the Antecedent or be the Consequence be any thing be nothing or be every thing in the premisses either true or false why sho●●d not the Apologists be tolerated notwithstanding Be

by proportion to the prohibition of blasphemy on pain of death Levit. 24. 11. to be tolerated Yet to prevent Idolatry the sword may be taken up Josh 22. 11. Negatively the outward act either of speaking such evill opinions or doing such evill facts may be restrained and yet no violence done to the conscience to act contrary to it's inward dictates and perswasion being not yet convinced they are evill This being only a suspension and intermission of the outward man from acting towards others not a coaction or subversion of the inward acts of judgement and understanding in himself And so Jewes or c. may be permitted among Christians so as they do not manifest their errors and defiance against the fundamentall truths that so they may hear and believe and be converted or how else shall they be won to the truth and the promise of God fulfilled touching their call 2. The spreading and practising of opinions that apparently tend to Libertine-licencious ungodliness ought not quietly to be permitted They cannot be suffered but with sinne and reproof from Christ to the sufferers of them Rev. 2. v. 14. to v. 21. where two Churches viz. Pergamos and Thyatir● are charged with sinne and reproved by Christ for having among them and suffering Balaamines Nicolaitans and Jezabellians to vent such opinions viz. 1. That under pretence of liberty and charity wives were to be common 2. Vnder pretence of avoiding scandals and perils it was lawfull for Christians to be present at the the sacred things Idolatries and joviall banquettings of Pagans as Vide Port. in 2 Revel things indifferent These in the Churches ought to have been excommunicated if refractory out of the Churches These not of any Church if they will not be convinced by conference with the Churches ought to be restrained from their evill practises by the Magistrate according to the examples of the pious Kings reforming abuses upon the ground of Moses penning of politique laws to punish them that could not be accounted me●t members of a Church for their lewd lives 3. For those opinions that are neither against fundamentals nor tend to licenciousness but strive to beat out truths thereby to creep closer to the rule to walk more evenly in the path both of Doctrine and Discipline and will in both by a strict bond amongst themselves walk as exactly as by any power Ecclesiastical without them set above them a their own will shall be in stead of others lawes I say such opinions are not to be restrained either from all divulging or practising that wee can finde by any Scripture We wave the question now Which is the only true form of Discipline and put the case in generall What opinions and practices that are conscienciously taken up ought to be left unrestrained To which our answer is that this sort here are they or else how shall there be a trying all things a trying of the spirits a discovery of new light and present truths prophesied to be revealed in their severall periods of times If any be contrary-minded we shall be glad to hear their grounds till they produce those and make them clear to the Churches wee ask our due a quiet permission to injoy that liberty which Christ hath bought and the Gospel brought and not to be jeered by any A. S. as here who tells the five Ministers that to live quietly without troubling the State they may have it appearingly unsought Let the world judge whether here be not a saucy jeer both in matter and form of speech I would A. S. had made use of that toleration and then he had not so intolerably troubled a Kingdome Or else if he had no stomack at first to be quiet if for some days he had but had somewhat appearingly allowed him to bite upon somewhat appearingly to quench his thirst he would have had a stomack rather to eat and drink then bite and jeere He is so passionate that hee doth not remember what he says in one page so as it may be reconciled to another Here he saith the Parliament is wise enough and knoweth what is convenient for the Church of God you may perceive his meaning by reading his Interrogatory yet in his Annotation upon the inscript of the Apologie pag. 5. He supposeth that the Parliament should arrogate if it should take upon it any directive power in matters of Religion If he hath any Scholastick quillet to reconcile this within himself it is more then the common people and weak brethren he writes to know of M. S. Note that A. S. bath one Consideration more But were it not that it it did answer it self I should have been too weary of his former inconsiderate considerations to have staid here being eager to come to his book 1. He saith that they ayme at separation he meanes the five Ministers though they disclaime it in their Apologie unlesse to separate as our brethren the Scots did from Prelaticall coaction should tolerate some small pretended defects they are but pretended yet he saith not approved by those from whom they desire to separate 2. He saith the Church from which the five Ministers would separate testifies a great desire to reforme defects yet those defects saith he are but pretended to be in it 3. Hee thinkes that the five Ministers should doe better to stay in the Church to reforme abuses then by separation to let the Church perish in abuses Now he supposeth destroying abuses and would have the five Ministers stay to helpe reforme yet he is angry with their Apologie that doth but sigh forth an intimation of neede of reformation And so angry that he would as ye heard in his second consideration it s so long since that he hath forgotten it have the five Ministers quit the Assembly A. S. his Annotations upon the inscription of the Apologists Narration M. S. If I thought A. S. had any skill in Physick I would aske him whether by Annotations he meanes as the Physitians speake Annotationes incompressas becticarum febrium indicia violent annotations are signes of an hectick feaver in his vitall parts A. S. All Apologies suppose some accusation which here appeares none M. S. Not to meddle with your English which is scarse grammaticall you are intreated to speake true Doth not the Apologie begin and end with sad complaints Remember our answer to your fourth Consideration A. S. If intended for an Answer to that which hath been written against your opinions it comes very short weake and slender M. S. Why then would you fight with a fly The Mouse told the Elephant that he would never get honour in killing a silly Mouse Why did you bestow so much Oratorie and Logicke to clap it and fisticuffe it A. S. Neither is it a meere Apologeticall Narration but also a grievous accusation against all our Churches as destitute of the power of godlinesse M. S. This indeede is a false accusation as we have cleered it in our Answer to your

a with-drawing of Christian communion from persons walking inordinately is an Ordinance or means appointed by God for the reducing and reclaiming of them is evident 2 Thes 3. 6. with the 14. We warn you Brethren in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ that yee withdraw your selves from every brother that walketh inordinately c. and vers 14. If any man obey not this our saying in this letter note him and have no company with him that he may be ashamed Clearly implying that to with-draw communion and to deny Christian fellowship unto Christians walking inordinately is both a means of Divine institution and otherwise proper and commodious in it self to reclaim and bring them to Repentance There is the same reason of Churches in this behalf which there is of persons Churches being nothing else but persons embodied Secondly suppose there were no such sufficient or satisfactory remedy for the inconvenience mentioned in the way of the Apologists as A. S. conceives to be in his which yet there is as hath in part already and will afterwards further appear yet Lawyers have a saying that a mischief is better then an inconvenience A man had better run the hazard of a greater loss then expose himself to a daily wasting and consuming of his estate A man had better be wet through and through with a soaking showre once a yeer then be exposed in his house to continuall droppings all the yeer long The Delinquencie of whole Churches such I mean as is matter of publique scandall or offence to their neighbour Churches is not an every dayes case no more in the way of Congregationall then of Presbyteriall Government you acknowledge the rarity of it in your Government and we affirm it in ours Now then much better it is to want a remedy against such an evill which possibly may not fall out within an age though it be greater when it doth fall then it is to expose our selves to continuall droppings I mean to those daily inconveniences which wee lately shewed to be incident to the Classique Government Thirdly they that implead the Congregationall way for being defective as touching the matter in hand seem to suppose that God hath put a sufficiency of power into the hands of men to remedy all defects errours and miscarriages of men whatsoever Else why should it be made matter of so deep a charge and challenge against the way of the Apologists that it affords not a sufficient and satisfactory remedy either to prevent or heal all possible miscarriages in all churches I would willingly know in case your Church transcendent your supreme Session of Presbyters should miscarry and in your Doctrinall determinations give us hay stubble and wood in stead of silver gold and precious stones a misprision you know wel-neer as incident to such Assemblies yea and to those that are more generall and oecumeniall then so as obstinacy in errour is to particular Congregations what remedy the poor Saints and Churches of God under you have or can expect against such a mischiefe or what remedy you now have in the way of your government for the recovering of your selves out of such a snare more then what the Congregationall way affordeth for the reclaiming of particular Churches Nay the truth is your Government in such a case is at a greater loss in respect of any propable or hopefull remedy against such an evill which yet is an evill of a most dangerous consequence then the other way of Government is for the reduction of particular Churches That hath the remedy of God as hath been shewed though not the remedy of men and yet that remedy of God which it hath is appliable by men and those known who they are viz. the Churches of Christ neer adjoyning but if your great Ecclesiastique body be tainted or infected though never so dangerously Corpora morbis majora patent Sen. God must have mercy on you and that in a way somewhat at least more then ordinary if ever you be healed For that Directive power in matters of Religion which had you left it in other mens hands might in this case through the blessing of God have healed you being now only in your own hath not only occasioned that evill disease that is upon you but also leaves you helpless and cureless by other men A. S. makes the greatest part of his arguments against that way of Government which hee opposeth of what iffs I mean of loose and impertinent suppositions and cases that are not like to fall out till ursa major and ursa minor meet unto which kind of arguments every whit as much as enough hath been answered already but he shall shew himself a soveraign Benefactour indeed to the Presbyterian cause if he can find out a remedy satisfactory and sufficient against that sore evill we speak of incident to his Government in the case mentioned which is a case both of a far worse consequence then the obstinacy of a particular Church in some error and I fear of a far more frequent occurrence then the world is willing to take notice of Fourthly let us ponder a little how sufficient and satisfactorie that remedie against the evill now in consideration is which the Classique politie under the protection of A. S. his pen so much glorieth in let us compare the two remedies of the two corriving polities together as A. S. hath done after this manner But the Presbyteriall Government saith he p. 39. is subject to none of these inconveniences For the collective or combined eldership having an Authoritative power all men and Churches thereof are bound by Law and Covenant to submit themselves thereunto Every man knoweth their set times of meeting wherein sundrie matters are dispatched and all things carried by pluralitie of voyces without any schisme or separation Not to be troublesome to the man about his Grammaticals wherein his pen slips oftner then Priscian will tolerate in such a piece because in these he opposeth nothing but a mans conceit either of overmuch scholarship or overmuch care in him Here is a remedie indeed against some inconveniences but whether the inconveniences be not much better then the remedie adhuc sub Judice lis est But what are the inconveniences The first is that Churches being equall in authoritie one cannot binde another to give any account in case of offence given Well what is the remedie for this in Classique constitution The combined Eldership having an authoritative power all men and Churches thereof are bound by Law and Covenant to submit themselves c. What is another inconvenience In case other churches were offended in the proceedings of a particular church they could not judge in it for then they should be both judge and partie in one cause c. Well what is the remedie in Presbyterian politie The combined Eldership having an authoritative power all men and Churches c. What is a third inconvenience That Congregationall Government giveth no more power or authoritie