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A29739 Two conferences between some of those that are called Separatists & Independents, concerning their different tenents one whereof, was appointed with Mr. Burton and a number of his church, and the other with Mr. John Goodwin and some of his church ... / now published by D.B. ... Brown, David, fl. 1650-1652.; Chidley, Samuel.; Burton, Mr.; Goodwin, John, 1594?-1665. 1650 (1650) Wing B5016; ESTC R20226 18,640 27

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Apostles according to Christs institution consisting all of faithful people according to visibility referring secret things to God and therefore all proceeding from a true and holy original whensoever they should be corrupted either by sinful matter or corrupt practises as in Corinth by that incestuous person or in Galatia by that false Doctrine they were still purgeable and were indeed purged for otherwise a little leaven would have sowred the whole lump And according both to the Temple and Churches purifying Adam the first man being created holy and unblameable if he should fall as he did indeed to sin and Apostacie he was by meanes of his original holiness by creation restored by the second Adam Christ to his former integrity But neither material Temples built by the man of sin and child of pardition nor by the Heathens and dedicated to Idolatry and intitled by the name of Saints departed although otherwise used to the worship of God as the Jewes did sacrifice still in the high-places of Judah after King Manasses conversion and reformation 2 Chron. 33. 17. nor yet assemblies gathered or constituted by humane invention contrary to the patern of the Churches mentioned in the Gospel can be reduced to any purity or integrity because they never had any but must needes still continue in Apostasie and Idolatry as they were made thereof at the first until there be a visitation or dissolution as we have woful experience even yet in these dayes which were pretended to be dayes of reformation and might be yet so indeed if it should please God to honour those whom he hath set in Authority with so excellent worthy and glorious a work beyond all other works as he did that worthy young King Josiah To those grounds thus or to this effect layed Mr. Burton and his congregation in stead of answering opposing applying or any wise clearing themselves in a harsh and angry manner propounded three questions to the Separatists First who built the Synagogues of the Jewes To which he answered In that the Scripture is silent who built the Synagogues except only a Centurion who loved the Iewish Nation built one it doth not become any man to demand the question neither is it necessary to edification or salvatiō but we neither read nor hear of any dedication of them to Idolatry which the Scottish Covenant abjureth as wel as they do the Romish Hierarchy worldly monarchy blasphemous liturgy canonizing of Saints and baptizing of bells And it sufficeth us that the Synagogues were lawful meeting places for the more frequent and convenient practice of the Jewish Religion except what was appropriated to the Temple at certain times of the year or else neither our Saviour nor his Apostles would have countenanced those places with their presence nor King David in the Psalmes complained of the desolation thereof His second Question was Might no meeting-houses be built to the Churches of the Saints now under the Gospel To which the Separatists answered that there both have been and still are many lawful meeting-places built by lawful Authority for the Churches of the Saints under the Gospel for keeping them both from the injury of weather and for their more quiet and peaceable practicing of the Ordinances being sheltered and hidden both from the open and secret enemies of God and his truth besides the dwelling houses of Members and wel-willers and wherein also are Churches both habiting and conversing and all without either dedication consecration or any kind of superstition And his third question was Whether were those which we call high-places and he still comparing to the Synagogues consecrated before in or after they were built The Separatists answered that Mr. Burton himself knew better who built and dedicated those shops of Antichrist wherein he hath lived all his dayes then the Separatists who were meer strangers to such things and unto which both he and his Congregation do still bring all their Tithes Sacrifices Gifts and Oblations but for the hearers sake the Separatists said according as they understood that the full dedication of the house whatsoever be of the ground must be at the accomplishing but in regard both of intention earnest and beginning of action are compleated at the first stone laying as the Bishops usually laid the first stone and made the blessed or rather cursed beginning and so they and the workmen proceeding and ending equally the one with the other by Masses mattens letanies or such like abominations whereby the Popish Clergy stil strengthned with civil Authority do practice their devotions in all their consecrations And in end after Mr. Burton did withdraw to refresh himself he being in exercise with his congregation before this appointed disputation amongst some other speeches had with the Elders and other Members of his Church in his absence they alleadged that if we should look so narrowly and precisely to Antichristian or Heathenish dedication of places why do we offer any service or sacrifice to God at all either in England Scotland France or Ireland for they were all four dedicated to Saints departed such as St. George St. Andrew St. Denis and St. Patrick It was answered that those Nations and all others were created and built by the great CREATOR builder and maker of all things and ordained for his people to live in yea even the wicked as well as the godly all having equal right by the benefit of Creation even the tares as wel as the wheat in the field of the world until the Harvest of the great day but he never ordained any Idolatrous places which are built and dedicated by man or by that man of sin and child of perdition to be worshipped in but hath destinated such works yea and workers also except repentance intervene to destruction and accounteth all kind of Sacrifices upon whatsoever pretence there offered to be like King Jeroboams practise at Dan and Bethel who made Israel to sin even abominations of desolation Some of those Scriptures which concern these matters Hos. 4. 15. Though thou Israel play the harlot yet let not ●udah offend and come not ye unto Gilgal neither go ye up to Bethaven nor swear The Lord liveth Amos 4. 4. 5. Come to Bethel and transgress at Gilgal multiply transgressions and bring your sacrifices every morning and your Tithes after three yeares And offer a Sacrifice of thanks giving with leaven and proclaim and publish the free offerings for this liketh you O ye Children of Israel saith the Lord God 2 Chron. 14. 2. 3 4 5. And Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the Lord his God For he took away the Altars of the strange gods and the high-places he brake down the Images and cut down the Groves And he took away out of all the Cities of Judah the high places and the Images and the Kingdom was quiet before him Levit. 26. 29 30. And ye shall eat the flesh of your Sons and the flesh of your Daughters shall ye