Selected quad for the lemma: child_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
child_n	father_n	israel_n	tribe_n	4,559	5	10.6477	5	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
B09776	The Anabaptists meribah: or, VVaters of strife. Being a reply to a late insulting pamphlet, written by Thomas Lamb, merchant, intitulled, Truth prevailing against the fiercest opposition; or, An answer to Mr. John Goodwins Water-dipping, no firm footing for church-communion. Wherein the impertinency of M. Lamb's answer, and the validity of M. Goodwin's Water-dipping, &c. are manifested by I. Price a member of the Church of Christ, whereof the said Mr. Goodwin is pastor.	Price, J., fl. 1656.	1656 (1656)	Wing P3332A; ESTC R182056	87,699	107

untill they came to years of knowledg and understanding Even so baptizing of children as well as men and women of discretion may be accompanied with the presence of Christ unto the standers by unto the administrators and Witnesses of the thing done and do service for the present upon them and upon children also when they are capable to understand the Mysteries of God imported therein As for that passage in this your second consideration wherein you say that Baptism with water c. is an Ordinance and command of Christ Serving the Grand Interest of Remission of sins Mr. Lamb. and salvation in some sense SECT XXXIII IF by serving the grand-interest of remission of sins and salvation in some sense be meant only this Reply How baptisme serveth the interest of Remission of Sins and how not that as the other Ordinances of Jesus Christ preaching prayer c. do serve or subserve unto these grand ends mentioned we are all brethren in this precious faith together with you We do believe that all Gods Ordinances and consequently this of baptism do accommodate and serve the grand-interest of remission of sins and salvation in some sense though every one in its own order and manner But 2. If by serving the grand-interest of remission of sins and salvation in some sense You mean as if there was as absolute necessity unto remission of sins and salvation that men and women should be baptized as well as believe and that it is not faith alone that justifieth or without baptism because as some of you have sensed it Jesus Christ hath said that he that believeth and is baptised shall be saved if you say of haptism and of the manner thereof according to your apprehensions as the Iews that came from Iudea Acts the 15. chapt ver 1. said of circumcision except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses ye cannot be saved if this be your sense concerning baptism and the manner thereof viz. Dipping c. then I say though you or an Angell from heaven shall bring in baptism or any thing else in competition with faith unto justification as some once brought in circumcision contrary to the Doctrine of truth which we have received you are and shall be unto us in this point as accursed And we rather affirm that if in this sense or with this hope and expectation you preach the necessity of baptism and dipping c. that Christ shall profit you nothing Again Whereas you further adde in this your second consideration that Baptism was Commanded by Christ to be done upon Discipled Persons I Answer Mr. Lamb. SECT XXXIII 1. Reply In whatsense children are discipled persons cipled persons in what sense not THat if by Discipled persons you mean only persons that are taught and have learned personally the truth as it is in Jesus I deny any such command of Christ concerning Baptism neither doth any word in the commission imply in the least any such thing The word in the Commission is Nations Go ye and teach all Nations baptizing them c. and we have granted that no nations are to be baptised but the discipled nations as no nation was to be circumcised but the discipled nation of the Jews Yet undiscipled persons at least in your sense undiscipled were circumcised Even so I conceive though no nations of the Gentiles were to be baptized but discipled nations yet children not actually and with understanding brought to the knowledg of Christ may be baptized 2. Suppose it be granted that none but discipled persons are to be baptized yet will it not follow that children must not be baptized The reason is because in Scripture-sense children of discipled parents are called discipled persons Act. 15.10 VVhy do ye tempt God to put a yoak upon the neck of the Disciples Children are called Disciples in Scripture c. This yoak is circumcision all are called Disciples upon whom this yoak was put Now this yoak was not put upon the neck of the believing Jews in respect of their personall subjection to circumcision for they were circumcised already but upon their children or upon them in respect of their children who are here called Disciples Again Iohn 9.28 said the Jews to the man whom Christ cured being born blinde we are Moses Disciples we that is the whole Nation of us Jews are Moses Disciples under the discipline of Moses Law And you know that children were under Moses his discipline in respect of circumcision Again the Scripture calls children by the name of Gods servants Lev. 25.41 42. Then shall he depart from thee both he and his children with him speaking of the jewish servants and their children when the year of Jubile comes for saith God they are my servants he and his children c. for they that is he and his children are my Servants If children may be called Moses Disciples and Gods Servants under the Law why may they not be reputed Christs Disciples and his Servants under the Gospel Again the holy actions of Parents are said to be done also by their children 2 Chron. 20.4 Jehoshaphat proclaimed a fast and Iudah gathered themselves together to ask or pray for help of the Lord Who are meant by Judah See verse the 13th And all Iudah stood before the Lord with their little ones their wives and their children thus children are said to pray with their fathers Again Deut. 29.10 11. Ye stand this day all of you before the Lord your God your captains of your Tribes your Elders and your Officers with all the men of Israel your little ones your wives c. that thou shouldest enter into covenant with the Lord thy God and into his Oath c. Thus children are said to Fast to Pray to Repent to enter into covenant viz. in Gods mercifull acceptation their Parents being exercised in those duties Why may they not be said now also to be the same with their Parents Again Psal 22.9 David saith thus Thou art he that tookest me out of the womb thou did'st make me to hope when I was upon my Mothers Breasts What is more plain in Scripture than this viz. in Gods gracious account children are said to hope and depend upon him even before they come to understand the Doctrine of hope Again Mat. 18.5 6. children are said to believe in Christ and a fearfull judgement denounced against those that shall do them injury And whether you do not wrong them by excluding them from the Ordinance of Baptism it concerns you wel to consider See the like Mark 9.36 37. and 42. compared together Again Mark 10.13 14 15. Again Math. 19.13 14 15. You shall see the heart and soul of Jesus Christ is free in the admission of children unto him though you thrust them away from him As for that last clause in your second consideration wherein you take notice that the celebration of Baptism upon discipled persons was commanded to be done With huge solemnity

with teaching by name in the commission of Christ and the same presence of Christ promised ioyntly to Baptism as teaching to the end of the world and serving the Grand Interest of Remission of Sins and Salvation in some sense and commanded by Christ to be done upon discipled persons and that with huge solemnity in the Name of the Father Son and Spirit and that too amongst the last words he spake on earth SECT XXVI THat Baptism with VVater is one of Christs commands Reply is our belief as well as yours But what you mean in these words and joyn'd with teaching by name in the commission of Christ I do not wel understand If you understand the particle and distributively thus That Christ commanded or appointed his Disciples to Teach as wel as to Baptise your Yea in that sense is our Amen But if you mean and understand the Particle and conjunctively as I think you do in this sense as if Baptism and Teaching must be companions and go together then it is denyed For if there must be teaching whereever there is baptizing because they are joyned together in the commission then it will follow that there must be baptizing whereever there is this teaching upon the same ground because in the Commission baptizing is as well joyn'd with teaching as teaching with baptizing if you say Teaching must precede baptizing Obj. because it is put before it in the Commission SECT XXVII J Answer Answ first That the Prelocation of the word teaching in the Commission before baptizing is no more an argument that teaching must precede baptizing in time than the prelocation of the word Iacob before Esau in Rom. the 9th 13. doth argue that Iacob was the elder brother no more then because we have Iacob also mentioned before Abraham in the 7th of Micah 20. that therefore Abraham was born after Iacob Yea Mark 1.4 We have baptizing mentioned before teaching or preaching Iohn did baptize in the wilderness and preach the Baptism of Repentance c. SECT XXVIII 2. THe Commission you see is concerning Nations Mat. 28.19 The word Nations doth include children Go ye therefore and teach all Nations haptizing them it is not go teach every person Baptizing them It is not denyed but Nations must be taught before Nations be baptized and families must be taught before families be baptized that is those that are capable in both must be taught and more than taught before they be baptized But this doth no more argue that every individuall person must be taught yea and must understand and receive that teaching before they be baptized than it did follow that because the Nation of Israel was to be taught and instructed in the wayes of God under the Law before circumcision that therefore none of their children must be circumcised untill they were first actually taught and instructed Genesis 17. and the ten first verses you will find that God first instructed Abraham in the Doctrine of his Covenant and afterward imposed upon him Circumcision which was a seal of the righteousness of faith or of the Covenant of Justification by Faith The Nation of the Jews were Gods taught people before circumcised and this is most apparent that the Proselytes of the Gentiles were first instructed before they became Jews This did not argue that their children must not or might not be circumcised before they were likewise actually instructed You know they were to be circumcised by the express command of God You have replyed to your self in mentioning the word of God they had the express command of God for their circumcision Object shew us the like for baptism and we shall give all up unto you SECT XXIX IF God gave his express commands to circumcise the children of taught Parents Answ or of Parents instructed in the Mysteries of the Doctrine of circumcision before those children were capable of any such teachings or of understanding the same then it will follow that there was a time when children even Infants at eight dayes old were capable subjects of such Ordinances of God and of Christ for they were his Ordinances which were very mysterious and spirituall Children in Gods acceptation capable of circumcision and the Doctrine thereof under the Law why not alike capable of baptism and the doctrine thereof under the Gospel and which they could not understand untill they came to years of discretion and that God did thereby instruct their Parents in the extent of his grace through the Mediation of Christ or the Messiah unto them and their children except they themselves did afterwards reject and refuse the same which was matter of great comfort to them If children were thus capable under the Law except you can find that they are expresly or by infallible consequence from the Scriptures excluded under the Gospel by what authority dare you exclude them Are they not as capable of the Doctrine of Baptism as the children of the Jews were of circumcision Were not there as deep Mysteries in the Ordinance of Circumcision as there are in the Ordinance of Baptism Did God did Christ command circumcision to children under the Law and hath God hath Christ forbidden or prohibited Baptism unto children under the Gospel If so shew us where and we have no more to say And whereas you say shew us an express command for the Baptizing of children the text is at hand Mat. 28.19 Go ye therefore and teach all Nations baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son Gods express command for baptizing of children and of the Holy Ghost Are not Nations made up of men women and children 'T is true children are not nam'd in the Commission neither are men or women named if children must be excluded because not named why do you not exclude men and women upon the same reason and whom then will you baptize If you say those that are actually capable of teaching and no more I answer then you obey not the extent of the Commission which is not to baptize the capable part in your sense of Nations but all Nations If the Jews consisting of men women and children were a taught Nation in Scripture Language and in Gods acceptation why may not a Nation of the Gentiles consisting of men women and children be likewise a taught Nation and the men women and children thereof receive all the characters and signs of Gods gracious acceptation of them all as well as the Jews did If by the word Nation in Scripture when applyed to the Jews the men women and children of the Jews are intended as you know they are and as will appear by the Texts in the Margin * Deut. 4.34 Deut. 32.28 2 Sam. 7.23 1 Chron. 17.21 Psal 83.4 Psal 147.20 Isa 1.4 Luke 7.5 c. Act. 8.28 Gal. 3.14 Eph. 3.6 why then by the word nation when applyed to the Gentiles shall we not understand the men women and children also And whereas the Text saith Go teach all nations I

here to evince that it is the express command will and pleasure of God that baptism must be by the totall immersion of the subject of baptism by burying and dipping him in the water and that every other manner of baptizing is a nullity and meer babism and vanity These Texts speak of the blessed fruits benefits and consequences of baptism not of the manner of baptizing All that they say is this that in or by Baptism be the manner what it will we are buryed with Christ that is we have a blessed fellowship with Christ Iesus in his death buryall and resurrection God making a blessed co●●enant with us in baptism and we with him that through the death buriall and resurrection of Christ he is become ours and we are become his that as he dyed was buryed and rose again for us so we would live and dye with him unto the world flesh and devill and henceforth live as those that were risen again with Christ These Texts do not prove first that dipping or plunging in the waters of baptism is the express will of God concerning persons when they are baptized respecting the manner thereof Nor secondly that the persons baptized in those dayes were so baptized but it proves as we have said that whatsoever the manner of their baptism was that believers by their baptism are buryed with Christ which is not at all denyed the very design of the Apostle here not being to set forth the manner of baptism but the benefits and fruits thereof When the Apostle saith in the next verse Rom. 6.5 if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death we shall c. this doth not shew the manner of Christs death as whether he was killed with a Sword strangled or crucified c. but some other thing if you will know the manner of Christ death you must look elsewhere for it So again when the Apostle saith in the 3. to the Philippians and the 3. ver we are the circume sion c. this doth not prove the manner of circumcision but another thing circumcision might be the cutting off of something from the fore-head or finger or any other part for all that can be gathered from that Text you must search elsewhere for that Even so when the Apostle saith we are buryed with Christ in or by Baptism if you will look for the express will and command of God concerning the manner of baptism you must find it elswhere and not in this place And further Tho it be granted that the practise of baptismin the primitive times was by dipping yet will it not follow that dipping is binding upon all persons in all places though it should be granted as possibly it may be true that persons baptized at that time and in those parts of the world where it is likely it might be done without danger to their health c. were baptized by dowsing dipping or plunging into the water and that the Apostle might take advantage from the manner thereof namely the more significantly and emphatically to put them in mind of their being dead and buryed with Christ that is of their being in the State of death and of buriall as they were when under the water c. it doth not prove that therefore they ought to be baptized no other way For though they were baptized after that manner yet they might have been baptized after another manner without offence unto God if so be they were not tyed up and restrained by God unto that manner and from all other shew us where is such restraint in the Scripture If from those Texts you will prove the necessity of the manner of baptism to be by immersion because the Text saith we are buryed with him in baptism that is as Christ was buryed in or under the earth so we were buryed in and under the waters inferring as well the manner of Christs buryall as the manner of our baptism why may you not infer thence also the manner of Christs death as well as of his buryall and with what kind of art can you make the analogy to hold there The next words speak of our being planted together in the likeness of his death c. Is there any thing in dipping setting forth the manner of Christs death Well though it be granted that some were nay that all spoken of in the Scripture were dipt in baptisme yet will it not follow that if they had been baptized any other way they had offended their Leige Lord except he had denyed them their liberty in this case and commanded them to be baptized in that manner only and no other way If we seriously consider the Texts by you urged to prove the necessity of dipping viz. Rom. 6.4 Coll. 2.12 they intend to teach men the true and most necessary Doctrine and use of baptism not the manner thereof The Doctrine Benefits and use of Baptism these are plainly taught us in the Scriptures which indeed we should more study and practise than thus disingeniously to separate rend and run away from the blessed assemblies of the Saints and Churches of God because they differ in these externall things And the truth is there being at least that we can finde no one determinate and externall manner of baptism or using the water in baptism essentiall thereunto by Gods command that therefore we ought to stand fast in that liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free and not be intangled with any yoake of bondage imposed upon us by man as you seem to impose this of dipping upon your brethren having only such thin waterish and slender Arguments and Proofs for the same But what you want in evidence you make up in confidence To proceed 6. Mr. Lamb. I find that as baptism c. THere is nothing under this head Reply which you gave us not before and whereunto we have not already made a reply Only one small Moat indeed which unto you may seem a Beam is not yet taken away and which is by you mentioned in this 6th Particular speaking of children being baptized in their infancie you say of them that SECT XLIII When they are grown up Mr. Lamb. they can only tell by hear-say that ever any such thing was done upon them most unlike therefore to feel any such Obligation by it TO insist upon this is but to spend an Arrow upon a Butterflye Reply I would know of Mr. Lamb how he comes to know his name is Mr. Lamb or whether his Fathers name was Lamb The baptizing of children nevertheless efficacious because when they come to age they cannot remember their baptism or somwhat else or whether that the children of Christian Parents have not as much reason to believe their Parents informing them of the time and place of their baptism and instructing them from day to day in the holy and due improvement thereof as Mr. Lamb hath to believe his name is Lamb because his Parents or

your war against the truth and people of the most high he was your match in rage and fury but he wanted your keen wit and roaring language to set it off with I say how can you read them over and not look upon them as the abhorrencie of your soul and even melt in tears for them but the Leopers lips must be covered 2. Suppose Mr. Goodwin had exceeded the rules of christianity in this kind and stumbled at that stone whereat others dash themselves in pieces was it such a worthy piece of charity to the world to be edifified by you in the discovery thereof by you I say his Son in the faith I have heard of a father who complaining that never had man so undutifull a child as he his son to throw contempt enough upon him replyed with less grace than truth my Grandfather had Do not you likewife endeavour here to render Mr. G. worse than him whom with indeed very little charity also you style an old enemy of the truth 3. I appeal to your conscience do not you believe that Mr. Goodwins end in writing this 22. consideration as wel as any of the rest was not your spiritual peace and interest according to his best thoughts and apprehensions that you might remember from whence you are fallen and repent And is this so great a crime deserving from your justice so great a censure that you should thus stigmatize him for a man of rage of fury and of a roaring language to set it off with a man of cruel mockings contemptuous revilings c. 4. Whether you do not judge it incombent as a duty upon Elders Ministers and Pastors of Churches when they perceive a danger of their Churches defection in matters of faith and practise together with other arguments from Scripture and reason to present their people and flocks over which God hath made them Overseers with the corrupt and wicked conversations of those persons I mean of the generality of those persons of the same judgement notions and apprehensions against which they argue as being fully perswaded of the corruption thereof of a dangerous tendencie to root up destroy the flourishing congregations churches of the living God Suppose some of your people baptized as you call it and gathered to your self according to your own judgement should apostize to Popery to Judaism to Turcism to Rantism and that with the plea of conscience as supposing the truth to be on their fides would it be improper or impertment if you be their Pastor amongst other arguments for their reducement to inform them of the authenticque histories relating the cruelty of the Papists the tyrany of the Turks the frauds of the Jews the prophaneness of the Ranters c. and hath Mr. Goodwin done any more 5. How were you harrased tortured and perplexed in this your answer to this 22. Consideration as if in an agony between conscience and concupiscence one while lifting Mr. Goodwin up above all his fellows for disposition and conversation according to godliness a pattern of patience humility meekness temperance and this by 20 years experience a man that hath exceeded his brethren of the Ministery in the promotion of holyness and close walking with God there being not many in his time if any at all that hath managed the same with more authority life and power another while you write him comparable with the old enemy of the truth Gangraena between whom and Mr. Goodwin say you there is but this onely difference viz. that he had not so keen a wit and roaring language to set off his rage and fury as Mr. Edwards had 6ly and lastly Instead of answering those nine particulars mentioned in this 22 Consideration you fall foul upon M. Goodwin as if your pen was in an extacie of rage and discontent and this must pass for an answer to them all and so set it pass with them that can be content to be so answered Mr. Goodwins 23 Consideration amounts to this There is no substantial argument produced to justifie such a practice of separations upon such grounds neither do he believe ever will be To this you say VVhether we have not given arguments to justifie it more than one and that grounded upon the Scriptures and your own principles and indeed the principles of all the learned I refer say you to the judgment of the Reader SECT LXXVII IF your Reader be a child in malice and a man in understanding Reply if a noble Berrean and not a giddy-headed Galathian able to try the spirits to prove all things so as to hold fast that which is good if his eyes are in his head what can he see in what you have written but a reed shaken with the wind a bubble in the ayr having indeed curious colors but fill'd only with very breath What can he see but zeal without knowledge many good words to no good purpose the holy Scriptures miserably mangled and cut in pieces like the Levites Concubine and scattered abroad throughout your book What can he see but confidence of mastery upon the very throne evidence of truth upon the very dunghil shadows of arguments exalted above the stars of God and the truth of arguments brought low and as it were covered with worms What can he see but a child of light walking in darkness and a son of desire murthering the honor of his aged father What can he see but a stragling sheep wandring away from the flock of Christ a prodigal son turning his back upon his fathers family What can he see but your high presumption in cutting off and keeping away innocent babes from Christs benediction in tearing up and rending in pieces the Churches of Christ united together by a holy covenant in obtruding your meer fancies for the objects of Faith and your unscriptural conceits for the Oracles of God in cursing those armies of Israel and flocks of Christ whom he hath blessed and in calling them common and unclean whom hee hath clensed In a word what shall he see but that notwithstanding all that you have written yet WATER-DIPPING IS NO FIRM FOOTING FOR CHVRCH-COMMVNION SECT LXXVIII To conclude If your Reader of what you have written to answer M. Goodwin be also M. Goodwins Reader of what you have pretended to answer and a Reader of such a Character mentioned in the last Paragraph I need not in the least suspect his discerning faculty in observing your most importune weakness in discovering as you call it M. Goodwins great mistakes in the exposition of eight chief Scriptures about Church-communion the truth is as in the former part of your book you call darkness light so in the rear of it you call light darkness and as the real darkness of that pretended light so the manifest light of that which you here call darkness cannot but be evidently discerned by him that wil diligently search those Scriptures and examine what M. Goodwin and your self his corrector have offered as the