discent of Phinees Sainct Augustine else-where debating this question of Moses and Aaron resolueth in doubtfull manner Moses and Aaron were both high Priestes or rather Moses the chiefe and Aaron vnder him or else Aaron chiefe for the pontificall attyre and Moses for a more excellent ministerie And in that sense Moses may bee called a Priest if you meane as Saint Augustine doeth an interpreter of Gods will to Aaron and others which is the right vocation of all Prophetes that were no Priestes and common to them all saue that by a more excellent prerogatiue than anie other Prophete of the olde Testament had God spake to Moses mouth to mouth and face to face as a man speaketh vnto his friend But this doth not hinder his ciuill power which was to bee chiefe iudge and soueraigne executor of iustice among thâ—m and by vertue thereof to put them to death that were offend ors against the law of God And in his steede succeeded not Eleazar or Phinees the sonnes of Aaron but Ioshua and Iudah the captaines and leaders of Israel Phi. Your collection of Samuel is not true For God sent him to do sacrifice when he annointed Dauid and therefore Samuel was a Priest Theo. My collection is grounded vpon the law of God Samuel was none of the sonnes of Aaron ergo Samuel was no Priest nor might not come neere the Altar to offer anie sacrifice in his owne person Phi. The Scripture sâ—yeth He tooke a sucking Lambe and offered it for a burnt offering vnto the Lorde Theo. You mistake the speech of the holy Ghost So Iephtah saide That thing which commeth first out of the doores of myne house to meete mee I will offer it for a burnt offering yet Iephtah was neither Priest nor Leuite So the Angell saide to Manoah If thou wilt make a burnt offering offer it to the Lorde and yet Manoah was of the tribe of Dan. Of Dauid that was no Priest the Scripture saith Then Dauid offered burnt offeringes peace offeringes before the Lorde And againe Dauid built there an Altar vnto the Lorde and offered burnt offeringes and peace offeringes and the Lorde was appeased towarde the Lande And likewise of Salomon The king went to Gibeon to sacrifice there a thowsande burnt offeringes did Salomon offer vppon that Altar Thrise a yeare did Salomon offer burnt offeringes and peace offeringes vppon the Altar which hee built to the Lorde and hee burnt incense vppon the Altar that was before the Lorde Nothing is oftener in the Scriptures than these kindes of speeches by the which no more is ment but that either they brought these things to be offered or else they caused the priests to offer them For in their own persons they coulde not sacrifice them because they were no Priests In that sense the Scripture saieth of Saul that He offered a burnt offering at Gilgall before Samuel came not that Saul offered it with his owne handes as you before did fondely imagine and sayde hee was deposed for aspiring to the spirituall function but hee commaunded the Priest to doe it who was then present in the host with the Arke of GOD as the next chapter doth witnesse in two seuerall places Phi. Then was Saul free from sinne when Samuel reproued him Theo. Samuel reproued him for distrusting and disobeying God For when God first aduanced Saul to the kingdom he charged him by the mouth of Samuel to go to Gilgal and there to staie seuen daies before he ventered to do any sacrifice til the Prophet were sent to shewe him what hee shoulde doe but he seeing his enimies gathered to fight against him on the one side and his people shrinking from him on the other side because Samuel came not beganne to suspecte that Samuel had beguiled him and therefore vppon his owne head against the commaundement of God willed the Priest to goe forwarde with his sacrifices and to consult GOD what hee shoulde doe This secrete distrust and presumption against the charge which God had giuen him was the thing that GOD tooke in so euill part and since hee woulde not submitte him-selfe to bee ruled by GOD and expect his leasure God reiected him as vnfitte to gouerne his people Neither did Samuel chalenge him for inuading the Priestes office but for not staying the time that God prefixed him before the Prophet should come Philand Wee reade in the booke of Numbers that the Captaine and all the people were commaunded to goe in and out that is to proceede in warres according to the order of Eleazarus the Priest Such were the warres of Abia other kinges of Iudah that fought most iustly and prosperouslie against the schismaticall Israelites and iustly possessed the Cities which they conquered in those warres As also Edom and Libuah reuolted from king Ioram for Religion euen because hee forsooke the God of their forefathers and coulde neuer bee recouered to the same againe Wherein also the example and zeale of the children of Israell was verie notable that they woulde haue denounced warre against the Tribe of Ruben and Gad onely for erecting as they tooke it a schismaticall altar out of the only place where our Lord appointed that sacrifice should be doone vnto his honor Theo. Yee bee tried men to interprete Scriptures The words which you applie to Eleazar the Priest stande in the text indifferent to be referred either to God or to Ieboshuah or to Eleazar and you lustilie leaue out both GOD and the Magistrate and will haue the Priest to bee the Master of the Musters And did the wordes pertaine to Eleazar no such power as you conceiue is thereby giuen to the Priest to caulme and kindle warres when hee list but onely to consult the Lord before his Arke and to reporte backe to the Captaine and leader of the people what the Lorde saide that no warres might bee vndertaken without expresse warrant from God This kinde of asking counsell at Gods mouth in their warres you should finde exemplyfied in sundrie places of the olde Testament as Iudges twentie first Samuel fourteene first Samuel twentie-three first Samuel thirtie But in this case the Priest had no farther authority than to inquire at Gods mouth and that hee did when the king commaunded him which is far from licencing subiectes to rebell against their king as you woulde haue it The warres of Abia the king of Iudah against Israell were not of Subiectes against their Soueraignes but of a lawfull Prince bearing the sworde and thinking to recouer the kingdome of Israell which Roboam his father lost from his enimies Where you iustifie the warres of Abia against Israell more bouldly than wisely GOD him-selfe prohibiting the children of Iudah and Beniamin in the dayes of Roboam his Father to fight against the children of Israell their brethren and professing the diuision of the Kingdome
from shrine to shrine to encrease your offerings which wickednes if S. Hierom had seene in his time he would haue taunted you a litle better than euer he did Vigilantius In the prayers which were made to God at his Altar we graunt with S. Austine The commendation of the dead by the custome of the Vniuersall Church had a speciall place but your prayer for soules in Purgatorie was neuer Catholique And where you send vs to S. Austens Enchiridion ca. 110. for that kind of prayer looke againe to the wordes and you shall find there no certaine doctrine but a doubtfull diuision consisting of three partes and not one of them prouing your Purgatorie When the sacrifices of the Altar or any other almes are offered for all that were baptized before they died for such as are very good they be saith he thankesgiuings to God for those that be not altogether ill they be propitiations that is procuring of mercie for such as be very bad though they be no helpers to the dead they bee some comforts to the liuing and whome they profite they profite them thus farre either to purchase them ful remission or at least more tolerable damnation The first part of this diuision that sacrifices for the dead are thankesgiuings to God is a poynt that now you can not heare of the last that they comfort the liuing but helpe not the dead by no meanes you will admit the middle is it that you stand on and that is nothing but this whom they profit they procure either full remission or at lest a more tolerable damnation Where S. Austen doth not affirme which of the twaine they shall procure but vseth a disiunctiue and of the twaine rather enclineth to the later as the likelier by correcting him selfe in this wise they shall haue remission or at lest a more tolerable damnation And for your better assurance that S. Austen on whom you relie neuer taught your Purgatorie for a matter of Catholique faith we send you back to the same father and the same booke the 69. chapter where he sayth It is not incredible that there is some such thing after this life and whether it be so it may be a question and it may be either found out or lie hid that some of the faithfull obteine saluation by a Purgatorie fire so much the sooner or later by howe much the more or lesse they loued the transitorie goods of this life If it may lie hid then is it no ground of Christian faith which must be fully beleeued of all men neither coulde the prayers of the Church depende vpon the doubtfull opinion of Purgatorie which by S. Austens owne iudgement is superfluous to be discussed and most dangerous to be resolued The rest of your places in this chapter amounting to the number often doe you litle good and vs lesse harme we receiue them without exception or distinction The words of Maximinus the Arrian you wittingly peruert to make them like ours wherein you discouer your malice and touch not our doctrine for Arius as you may reade in that disputation which Athanasius had with him vpbrayded the fathers for vsing the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not found in all the bookes of the new or old testament whereas the Church of Christ alwayes professed to beleeue nothing but what was plainely written in the sacred scriptures The selfe same cauil Maximinus vrged S. Augustine with Hae verò voces quae extra scripturam sunt nullo casu a nobis suscipiuntur These wordes and not as you translate these sayings which are not in the scripture by no meanes we receiue This obiection wee grant was both foolish and hereticall and if wee vrge you with any such spare vs not We striue with you not for names words but for poynts and Principles of faith and those we say must bee proued by the scriptures S. Paul sayd so before vs Faith is by hearing hearing out of the word of God Mauger your traditions and vnwritten verities this is a Christian and Catholique position which all the fathers confirme with one consent as shall be shewed in place conuenient In the meane time wee saie with Basill that I trowe was no Arrian Manifestus est a fide lapsus crimen maximae superbiae vel a scripto recedere vel non scriptum admittere It is a manifest fall from faith and a sinne that argueth infinite pride either to leaue that which is written or admit that which is not written Your sixt chapter handleth no matter of religion as being purposely made to excuse you from Treason and hath nothing in it any way materiall saue onely that vpon the name of Masse-priest you fall into a great rage and will needes proue the Apostles themselues the ancient fathers of all ages were masse priests And that you do ful clarkly For wheresoeuer you find the word oblation or sacrifice in any father you presently put him in the Decke for a masse-Priest I maruaile you be not ashamed professing so deepe knowledge to send vs ouer such vaine trifles The very children in England doe knowe the Lordes supper is a sacrifice of thankesgiuing a memoriall of Christes oblation on the crosse dayly renewing his death in a mysterie which is the true meaning of the twelue places that here you bring and of twelue hundred mo that might be brought to the like effect but this is nothing to the sacrifice of your masse where you professe that Christ is couered with accidents of bread and wine and offered really with your handes to God his father for the remission of your sinnes shewe but one father for this kinde of sacrifice and we will agnise not onely these whome you name but also Melchisedec and Malachie for Masse-priests Searching fiue hundred foure score and thirteene yeres after Christ with al diligence you find the worde Missa twise once in Ambrose and once in Leo and in a brauerie you demaund of vs Were they Masse-priests that sayd those masses But what if the word Missa did then not signifie the Masse but a dismissing of the Catechists before and of the faithful after the Lords supper where is your great and glorious triumphe become Looke to the fourth Counsell of Carthage the 84. Canon Let the Bishop forbid no man to enter the Church and heare the word of God neither Iew Gentile nor heretike vsque ad missam Catechumenorum that is till the Catechists be sent away not vntil the Catechists masse For they which were not yet baptized could not be present at the ministration of the Lords supper therefore Missa doth signifie the dismissing of them as the manner was in the primitiue Church to send away first the Catechists next the Repentants and last of all to giue the faithfull leaue to depart when the communion was ended which three dimissions were sometime called in the plurall number Missae
naught why should it haue chambers A christian Prince may not pardon or winke at your falshood S. Paul hath put in a caueat against that sleight of permitting which in truth is consenting Elie reproued his sonnes yet was he sharply punished of God for his indulgence which is all one with your conniuence S. Iohn saith he that lodgeth or biddeth an heretike God speede is partaker of his euill works Thē how can the Magistrate beare with your sacrilegious prophaning the Lordes supper or licence the rest of your blasphemies hope to be free from your plagues When Valentinian the yonger was requested to winke at the renewing of an altar for the Pagās in Rome S. Ambrose disswadeth him in these words All mē serue you that be Princes you serue that mighty God He that serueth this God must bring no dissimulation no conniuence but faithful zeale deuotion he must giue no kind of cōsent to the worship of Idols other prophane ceremonies For God will not be deceiued which searcheth all things euen the secrets of our heartes This earnest desire to serue God in hir Princely vocation without any shrinking or wauering hath bin so long plāted is so well setled in hir Maiesties deuoute minde that no possible meanes euer could as you presently finde euer shall as we trust in Gods mercy quench in hir Highnesse that religious affection Phi. This the Apostles confessors did often in the primitiue Church S. Cypriā testifieth that some did in his time S. Athanasius himselfe did with the Catholikes in Antioch Theo. What did they marchandize priuate Masses or feede men with demie Communions Did they mock the simple with praiers not vnderstood or weary them with empty gestures They did no such thing but Priest people ioyned togither to celebrate the Lords supper tasting al of one bread which was broken of one cup which was blessed offred thanks to God with one consent of hart voice for the flesh of Christ that was wounded blood y◠was shed for the remission of their sinnes This was done in prisons whiles persecution lasted in chambers if necessitie forced in those churches which the Christians frequēted Straine Cyprians words at your pleasure yet will they neuer be drawen to make for your vanities He warneth the people not to flock to the prisons in heaps least their resort be noted of Infidels by that meanes all accesse denied he rather aduiseth them that a Priest a Deacon by course should visite the Confessors To what end you shal find at large in a leter of his to Cornelius Let vs not leaue thē naked vnarmed whō we prouoke incite to the skirmish but defend them with the munitiō of the body blood of Christ our Eucharist hauing that vertue to safegard the receiuers How do we prepare thē to take the cup of Martyrdom except we first admit them in the church as cōmunicāts to drink of the Lords cup He that cōcludeth both kinds to be needful for such as were ready to spend their liues in the professiō of Christs name doubtles neuer ment to procure thē a priuate Masse that should keep thē frō receiuing of either Athanasius refusing Leontius the Bishop of Antioch for heresie did cōmunicate in priuat houses with such as fauored Eustathius It skilleth not where but what he did our Sauiour appointed neither time nor place to be respected in his supper but the word elemēts charging vs to do what he did which is to breake giue that all may be partakers of one bread to diuide the cup that all may drincke thereof Do that which he commanded to be done who first ordained this mystery Do that which S. Paul receiued of the Lord deliuered to the Church of Corinth do that I say which the primitiue Church of Christ alwayes did and as for places we wil not greatly striue The rigor of penal statutes searches of temporal officers watchfulnes of poore ministers doth maruelously trouble your spirits I wil not requite you with the flames you kindled in England to burne your brethren to dust with that holy house which your Friers haue planted in Spaine resembling the tortures of Neroes garden with the Massacres of Prouince Piemont and Paris Let passe with silence the cruel executions of your inordinate rages God giue you grace to repent your murders past and soften your vnmercifull harts in time to come you were brought vp in lambes lease belike that you startle thus at the fatherlie chastisement wherewith this Realme seeketh your amendment and sucketh not your blood Compare the penalties which you fret at with the lawes of former Emperours and you shall see that hir Maiesties gracious inclination to shew you fauour aboue your deserts hath eased the burden and tempered the sharpenesse of their auncient edictes which restrained such as forbare to communicate with the Church of Christ from buying selling disposing bequething goods or lands by will or otherwise yea from receiuing any legacies or enioying their fathers inheritance the place where schismaticall seruice was saide chappell or house to be forfaited and the Bishop and Cleargie-man to paie tenne pound weight in gold or to be banished S. Austen when it was expected by reason of the goodnesse of his nature that he should mediate for some part of these penalties to be released gaue this quick stout answere Yea marie what else I should gain-say this constitution that you loose not the things which you call yours you without feare spoile Christ of all his that the Romane lawes should permit you to make your last wils and you with cauelling reuerse that which God bequethed our fathers that in buying and selling your contracts might be good and you share that among you which Christ bought when he was solde that you might freely giue what you list and what the God of Gods hath bestowed on his owne children from East to West should be voide that you should not be banished from the place where your bodies rest and you driue Christ from the kingdom purchased with his blod to reach from sea to sea Nay nay let Princes on Gods name serue Christ in making lawes for Christ. You neede not complaine of rigour so long as our penall statutes be farre more fauourable than these lawes which the Christian Emperours established and the Catholike fathers commended Acquaint the world with the persecution that you suffer in England and your vntrue reports shall soone be conuinced The greatest brunt your friends did beare till this last reuolt which you procured if they ioyned therewithall no traiterous intent was imprisonment where no man was denied the freedom of his goods the comfort of his wife the succor of his friends the basest among them neuer knew what dungeon stocks or Irons ment yet say you They were chased from their houses spoiled of their goods and handled
against our Soueraigne you neither may nor doe refuse to bee commenders assisters perfourmers of his vngodlie purposes tende they neuer so much to the preiudice of this Realme and disturbance of her Maiesties Title State and wel-fare Which tyranous vsurpation in him and trayterous affection in you no Father that is Catholicke did euer allowe no Prince that is auncient did euer endure And as for your skattered and maymed examples which here you heape to fraie the simple with emptie names and loftie words not one of them auoucheth and such matter or meaning Phi. If they prooue not the Popes iurisdiction ouer Princes which you stoutelie denie yet I trust they proue that wee may sende or goe to Rome to bee resolued in doubtes of Religion and to bee relieued in times of affliction which is all wee require Theophil Counsell in cases of fayth and comforte in dayes of daunger bee no signes of authoritie but dewties of Charitie neyther those peculiar to the Bishoppe of Rome but common to the whole Church of God and therefore if your examples reache no farther but that Princes haue beene sometimes aduised and other good men harbored by the Bishops of Rome whiles the Citie was famous for learning and religion you take great paines to proue that which neither helpeth you nor hindereth vs. All this may bee graunted and your running to Rome no whit the sooner concluded to bee lawfull Phi. What reason barreth vs now from trauelling to Rome more than others heretofore Theo. Your holie Father pretendeth and exerciseth in our daies a monstrous and pernicious power ouer the Church of Christ which at that time when these godly men wrote and repayred to Rome was neither attempted by him nor mistrusted by them So that they might resort to the Bishop of Rome as to their fellow seruaunt without offence to the Church or contempt to the state because the Bishops then behaued themselues as religious members not as presumptuous heades of the Church and liued as subiectes not as superiors to the Prince you can now not flie to the Bishop of Rome but you must do violent wrong to them both to the Prince by renouÌ„cing your subiection breaking your oth and bearing armes against your liege Ladie when the Pope commaundeth to the Church in thinking teaching the Bishop of Rome to bee the decider of all doubtes vpholder of all truth expounder of all Scriptures Confirmer of all Councelles dispenser with all lawes yea supreme and infallible Iudge of all men and all matters that any waie touch or concerne Religion Which strange and incredible pride those examples which you bring are so far from allowing that we need no better witnesse to confute you with Phi. You doe but iest I dare saie Theo. Examine the particulars you shall finde them make cleane against you or at least nothing for you The Bishop of Rome you saie gaue vs our first faith in the time of the Britanes restored it afterward in the dayes of the English recouered vs from Paganisme from Arianisme from Pelagianisme from Zwinglianisme This last I may skip as a fond effect of your distempered choler The Gospell nowe preached among vs you call in your heat Zwinglianisme from the which though some of you be lightly stept I trust in God the worst your holie Father can doe shall neuer remoue vs. That this lande was infected with Arianisme and Pelagianisme as manie other places then were I finde it reported in the storie of Bede that the Bishop of Rome recouered vs from both or from either I finde it not yea rather certaine it is the Bishoppes of Fraunce our neighbours vppon request made vnto them by the Britanes sent Germanus and Lupus two french Bishoppes chosen in a Synode by the generall liking to conuert this Realme from Pelagius error which also they did with great celeritie So that of those foure recoueries to the faith which you reckon in fauour of the Bishoppes of Rome the last is the present estate which we striue for the two next be false the first is only left that furthereth your conclusion but little Phi. Will you denie that the Bishop of Rome first caused the Britanes and Saxons to bee christened Theo. I will denie nothing that is true presume you no more than you proue and we shall soone growe to an ende Lucius an auncient king of the Britanes wrote to Eleutherius Bishop of Rome for his helpe that him selfe and his people might be baptised and Gregorie the great sent Augustine the Moncke to see whether he could king Edelbert and the Saxons Doth this proue the Pope superiour to Princes or that he may send his factours hither without the Princes leaue Phi. There was somewhat in it that Lucius sent so farre Theo. This Realme was then rude learning here skant religion newly sprong no where setled Coilus his father brought vp at Rome from a child and one that of his owne accorde yeelded both friendship and tribute to the Romanes Lucius himselfe a great fauourer of the Romane Empire and no place neere home so famous well furnished with able men to serue his turne as Rome What maruaile then if Lucius so wel acquainted and frinded at Rome before thought best to be thence directed and instructed at his first entrie to the Christian faith But can you proue that Lucius was bounde to doe that hee did or that Eleutherius did any thing against the Princes will Phi. I say not so Theo. Then this example maketh litle for you which be sent hither not only without the Princes leaue but against her liking and Lawes to withdrawe the peoples hearts from her and to prepare them for a farther purpose Gregories fact in sending to conuert the Saxons maketh lesse For Augustine and his felowes notwithstanding they were sent from Rome as you are and taught nothing but subiection and obedience to Princes which you doe not yet woulde they not enter this land without the kings consent and permission but rested in the Isle of Tenet til his pleasure were knowne and offered not to preach in this Realme before the king in expresse wordes gaue them licence They came not in disguised as you doe they lurked not in corners they traueled not by night they brought no bulles in their bosomes to discharge the subiects and depose the Prince the Bishop of Rome that sent them neither stirred rebellion nor inuaded king Edelberts dominion And where you being subiects offer that wrong to a Christian Queene which they being straungers did not to an heathen king yet would you beare men in hand you follow their example but lay downe the true report of these stories and see howe handsomely they fitte your conclusion Eleutherius being requested by king Lucius sent some to baptise him and his subiects and Gregorie sent others to tâ—â—e whether king Edelbert woulde giue them leaue to preach to the Saxons ergo you may flee to the Bishoppe of
and Paul in the fifteenth yeare of his conuersion or as himselfe speaketh After fourteene yeares came not to Rome but to Ierusalem to conferre with Peter which at least must be the 48. yeare of Christ and foure yeares after Peters installation at Rome And after that when Peter came to Antioch and began to dissemble for feare of the Iewes which were sent from Iames Paul resisted him to his face and sharpely rebuked him not respecting that hee was then in his pontificalibus and newly made Bishop of Rome as you your selues beleeue Now choose whether you will disclaime Peter for no Bishop of Rome and so loose your succession from him or graunt that the Bishop of Rome may be lawfully resisted as Peter was which is the very thing you required vs to proue One of these twaine you shall neuer auoide do what you can Phi. I may not deny that Paul did it the Scripture is plaine I resisted him to his face but whether he did no more than he might or how to his face is a Schole-point and a pretie question Theo. No question at all vnlesse you will charge Paul with rashnesse in doing it vnshamefastnesse in writing it and wilfulnesse in directlie defending it For by this dissention doth he proue the â—oundnesse of his doctrine and by Peters yeelding hee confirmeth the Galathians that were wauering And therefore you must either allowe this resistaunce for good and lawfull or else conclude this Epistle to bee no Scripture and Paul to be voide of the holy Ghost in proposing an vnhonest and vngodly fact of his owne for a president which to say were no small blasphemie Phi. I did not auouch it but only moue the question Theo. You must moue no such questions if you be a Christian they be reprochfull to the spirit of God and iniurious to his word You were driuen to a narrow straite when you came to this shift You be loth I see to confesse either but there is no remedy Philander you must yeelde vs one of these whether you will or no. Phi. Let me heare the rest and then you shall know my minde Theo. Resist not truth to maintaine your credit God will surely reuenge it This example is ineuitable studie till your braines ake for an answere But the rest you shall heare Polycarpus being at Rome when Anicetus was Bishop there they dissenting in some other small matters were by and by reconciled but touching the obseruation of Easter-day which in diuerse places was diuersely kept Anicetus could not perswade Polycarpus to leaue those thinges which he had alwayes obserued with Iohn the Disciple of our Lord and the rest of the Apostles with whom he had beene conuersant Phi. The contention was but in words betweene them Theo. Yes they differed in deedes and Polycarpus could not be induced by any wordes to follow that manner of celebrating Easter-day which Anicetus receiued from those Apostles that founded the Romane Church This coÌ„trouersie waxed hoatter in Victors time who for the very same cause went about to cut off al the Churches of Asia from the vnitie of communion as intangled with some strange opinion and by letters inueighed against them and vtterly denounced al the brethren there excommunicated but for all his hast he was quickly staied Phi. By whom Theo. Polycrates in the behalfe of the Churches of Asia amongest other thinges replyeth thus to Victor I that haue seene threescore fiue yeares in the Lord and haue coÌ„ferred with the brethren throughout the world and haue turned and searched the holy Scripture will neuer be afraid of those thinges that are done to terrifie me I could make mention of the Bishops that are with me whoÌ„ you required me to send for and so I did whose names if I would recken they would make a great multitude which taking the paines to visit me a man of small account consent to this Epistle Victors deede did not please all the Bishops that otherwise were of his side Yea many of their letters saith Eusebius are extant that did sharply reproue Victor Amongest whom Ireneus was one that wrote in the name of his brethren of Fraunce where he was chiefe and allowed Victors opinion that the mysterie of the Lordes resurrection should bee kept onely vpon Sundaie But yet he wisely and largelie warneth Victor that he should not excommunicate all the churches of God obseruing their auncient tradition Phi. They withstood him in a small and trifling cause Theo. You take holde of that which doth hurt you To resist whom they should not in a matter that they neede not is a double offence and then shoulde Ireneus and others haue rather reproued Polycrates and his adherentes for neglecting their dueties than the Bishop of Rome for passing his boundes but in that hee was stoutly resisted by the one and sharpelie reproued by the other it is euident that neither of them tooke him for his sole and supreme directer of Christes Church on earth Of Cyprian I said before that he counselled the Church of Spain to reiect Basilides notwithstanding his restitution by Stephanus Bishop of Rome and howe vehemently the saide Stephanus was resisted by Cyprian for the rebaptizing of such as forsooke their heresies his Epistle to Pompeius doth aboundantlie witnesse Because you desired to knowe what aunswere our brother Stephanus Bishoppe of Rome returned to our letters I haue sent you a copie of that he wrote By the reading whereof you shall more and more perceiue his error that hee laboureth to maintaine the cause of heretickes against the Church of God For amongest other thinges either superfluous or impertinent or contrarie to themselues which he writeth vnskilfully and vnwisely hee added this c. And hauing repeated and refuted the wordes of Stephanus What blindnesse of heart saith Cyprian is this and what peruersenesse that hee will not acknowledge the vnitie of faith comming from God the Father by the deliuery of our Lorde Iesus Christ And where no heresie no nor schisme can haue the sanctification of healthfull baptisme out of the Church why doth the inflexible obstinacie of our brother Stephanus breake out so farre that of Martions baptisme and such like blasphemers against God the Father he auoucheth children may be borne vnto God It commeth of too much presumption and frowardnes that a man had rather defende his owne though it bee false and naught than yeelde to an others deedes and words How like you this resisistance doth it go to the quicke or no Phi. This was an error in Cyprian for Stephanus held the truth Theo. The question is not whether Cypryan were deceiued but whether Stephanus were resisted I grant in this case Stephanus had the better part but yet Cyprian the Bishops of Africa thought theÌ„selues to be right vpon that opinion of truth how far they resisted the Bishop of Rome their acts Epistles declare Phi. Their matter I tel you was naught
life Theo. The necessities of this life are nourishment and rayment the rest are superflâ—ities When wee haue foode and apparel sayth the Apostle let vs bee therewith content whatsoeuer is aboue is needlesse and noysome Our Sauiour willing his not to bee carefull for their life expresseth all thinges that bee needefull for this present life Take no thought saying what shall wee eate what shall wee drinke or wherewith shall wee bee clothed Your heauenly Father knoweth that you haue neede of these thinges These thinges wee neede and therefore are they promised other thinges are not promised and therefore we neede them not If Princes were first ordained of God for those thinges onely which are needefull to maintaine this temporall life for thinges superfluous are besides the promise and without the protection of GOD the power and charge of Princes shoulde consist in meates drinkes and apparell and Princes haue no farther care of their people than they haue of their houndes and Horses to see them well fedde and smoothe kept which is a very wicked and brutish opinion Phi. They are besides to maintaine peace and quietnes among their subiects Theo. You might haue ioyned godlines and honestie therewithall as S. Paul doeth and then had you done well I exhort sayth hee that prayers and supplications be made for Kings for all that are in authoritie that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honestie Prayers must bee made for kinges that they may discharge their duties according to Gods ordinance which is that their subiects by their helpe and meanes may leade an honest godly and quiet life godlinesse and honestie being the chiefest endes of our praiers and effectes of their powers For God hath not put the goodes landes bodies and liues of men into Princes handes to cloath their backes and fill their bellies but with praise to prouoke those that be willing to driue those that be not willing with punishments to imbrace pietie towards God sobrietie towardes themselues and charitie towardes their neighbours This you may learne by the regiment of euery priuate familie which is both a part and a paterne of the common-wealth Al parents and masters haue a farther charge ouer their children and seruantes than to see them defended froÌ„ hunger and colde A wicked father is hee that feedeth and cloatheth and nourâ—ereth not his children Ye fathers saith S. Paul bring vp your children in the instruction and information of the Lord. Come children saith Dauid harken vnto me I will teach you the feare of the Lord. Moses admonishing the whole people of the Iewes as it were speaking to euery particular maÌ„ Take heed saith he to thy selfe that thou forget not the thinges which thine eyes haue seene and that they depart not out of thine heart all the dayes of thy life but teach them thy sonnes and thy sonnes sonnes and so God himselfe said to Moses Gather mee the people togither and I will cause them to heare my words that they may learne to feare me all the dayes that they shall liue vpon the earth and that they may teach their children This diligence God coÌ„mended and rewarded in Abraham as the best part of a fathers duetie I know him saith God that hee will commaund his sonnes and his houshold after him that they keepe the waie of the Lord to do righteousnes and iudgement that the Lord may bring vpon Abraham that good which he hath spoken vnto him If priuate men be bound to traine vp their families in the feare of God and loue of vertue much more are Princes the publike fathers of their countries and exalted to farre greater and higher authoritie by Gods ordinance than fathers or masters I say much more are they in coÌ„science charged by calling licenced to frame their subiectes to the true seruice of God right obedience of his law which be thinges not temporal but spiritual This king Dauid protesteth and promiseth vnto God he will doe in his kingdom Him that priuilie slaundereth his neighbour will I destroy Mine eyes shall be to the faithfull of the Land that they may dwell with mee hee that walketh in a perfect way he shal serue me There shall no deceitful or proude person dwell within mine house hee that telleth lies shall not remaine in my sight Betimes will I destroy all the wicked of the Land that I may cut off al the workers of iniquitie from the citie of the Lord. This christian Princes as you heard before made not onely a part but the chiefest part of their duetie The true religion of God and honest conuersation euen of Priests themselues is our chiefest care saith Iustinian And so Valentinian Theodosius The search of true religion we finde to be the chiefest care of the Imperiall Maiestie With whom S. Austen agreeth defending Felix a catholike Bishop against the Donatists for that he was cleared at a temporall bar by the Princes commandement of such crimes as were obiected to him notwithstanding they were ecclesiasticall One of you saith a Bishop ought not to be cleared at the Proconsuls bar as though he sought it not rather the Emperour commanded that kinde of trial to be had to whose charge that matter did most pertaine and whereof the Prince was to render an account to God Of this mind were the Bishops of Rome themselues in former ages Eleutherius not long after Christ wrote to Lucius king of this realm amongst other things in this wise You are Gods Vicar in that kingdom The natioÌ„s people of Britanny are yours whom you ought to gather bring vnto concord peace vnto the faith law of Christ vnto his holy Church to nourish maintaine protect rule alwaies to defende from iniuries mischiefs froÌ„ enemies A king you shal be whiles you rule wel which except you do you shal be vnworthy the name of a king loose it which God forbid So Pope Iohn made answere to Pipin Charles Illos decet vocari Reges qui vigilaÌ„ter defendunt regunt ecclesiam Dei populum eius imitati Regem Psalmographum dicentem non habitabit in medio domus meae qui facit superbiam c. We must cal those kings which doe carefully defend rule the church of God his people after the example of king Dauid in his Psalmes a proude man shall not dwel in mine house This Gregory the great earnestly exhorted Edelberth vnto the first that was christened of the Saxon kings in this Land For this cause the almightie God bringeth good Princes to the regiment of his people that by them hee may bestow the gifts of his mercy vpon al that are vnder theÌ„ Therfore glorious son the grace which you haue obtained at Gods hands keepe with a careful minde hasten to extend the faith of Christ in the nations vnder you Increase the zeale of your vprightnes to
catholike church that heretikes shoulde bee put to death And therefore the ancient Fathers did not extend these preceptes to heresie as you doe or else they thought them-selues and the church of Christ not bounde to the iudiciall part of Moses lawe which properly concerned the Iewes Common-wealth and expired at the comming of our Sauiour But admit this place were ment of heresie which is not so when God saith that Prophetes shal be slaine and thou shalt slea the inhabitants of that citie with the edge of the sworde and destroie it vtterly doeth he speake to priuate or publike persons To priuate men he saide thou shalt not kill ergo this precept hee shall bee slaine is directed to the Magistrate to whome God gaue the sworde for this purpose that hee should take vengeance of the wicked in his name and according to his law Phi. What if the Magistrate him-selfe bee the partie that so sinneth and should be put to death shall he escape Theo. That is the case which you take in hande to proue that the people may punish the Prince offending as wel as the Prince may the people Phi. Either the people or none must do it Theo. And since the people may not doe it it is euident that God hath reserued the magistrate to be punished by himselfe and not giuen the people power ouer their Prince Dauid committed adulterie Salomon eâ—ected Idolatrie both offences being death by Gods lawe Might the people therefore haue put Dauid Salomon to death In many christian common-wealthes rapes thestes murthers be capitall crimes and punished by death shall the people therefore take their Princes if they be culpable in any of these and by their owne lawes chop off their heads I think you be not so mad to put the sword in euerie mans hand that first will vse it Phi. Then Princes haue impunitie to doe what they list without feare of Lawes Theo. Princes appoint penalties for others not for themselues They beare the sworde ouer others not others ouer them Subiectes must be punished by them and they by none but by God whose place they supplie Saint Cyrill saith rightly Nemo leges Regum impunè reprobat nisi Reges ipsi in quibus praeuaricationis crimen locum non habet Prudenter enim dictum est impium esse qui regi dixerit iniquè agis No man may breake the lawes of Princes without punishment but the Princes themselues who may not be charged with the transgression of their owne Lawes For it was wisely spoken he is wicked that sayeth to a king thou art an offendour And if it bee a monster in nature and policie to suffer the children to chastise the father and the seruantes to punish the Master what a barbarous and impious deuise of yours is this to giue the Subiectes power of life and death ouer their Princes Sticke not to these thinges if you bee wise least Children and Seruauntes thinke it more neede you bee purged for Phrensie than answered by Diuinitie Phi. Neither pertaineth this to poore men onely but to the Gouernours and Leaders of the people most of all As wee see in the booke of Numbers where Moses by the commaundement of God caused all the Princes of the people to bee hanged vppon Gibbettes against the Sunne for communication in sacrifice with the Moabites and the rest of the people euerie one by the hande of his neighbour to bee put to the sworde for the same fault wherein Phinees the Priest of God by sleaing a chiefe Captaine with his owne handes deserued eternall prayse and the perpetuitie of his Priesthood By Moses also his appointment the faithfull Leuites slue 3300. of their neighbours brethren and friendes for committing idolatrie and forsaking the true God Mary in all this as you see by the examples alleadged the Prophet and Priestes must direct them for the cause and action that they erre not of phantasie partialitie pride and pretence of Religion as heretikes and rebels do but the quarrel must be for the olde faith seruice and Priesthood against innouation and directed and allowed by those which by order and function haue charge of our soules Theo. Can you see no difference betweene Nobles that bee Subiectes and the Prince that beareth the sworde Moses the chiefe Magistrate was commaunded by God to hang vp the heades and captaines of the people for committing whoordome with the daughters of Moab and bowing down to their gods and so hee did Your conclusion is ergo the people may doe the like to their Magistrates You may hang this reason on a hedge for the goodnesse of it Your antecedent hath two sufficient warrantes which your conclusion lacketh First God precisely commaunded that kinde of reuenge to bee taken and secondly the Magistrate was the reuenger Howe can you then vpon this infer that Subiectes may do the same since Subiectes be no magistrates and haue a streit commandement from God not to laie hands on his annointed Phi. Phinees the Priest of God slue Zimri the Prince of the house of Simeon with his owne hands and thereby gat the perpetuitie of his Priesthood Theo. Phinees had for his warrant afore he did the deede the voice both of God and the Magistrate For Moses had charged the Iudges of Israell before Zimri came with the woman of Midian into the tentes Euery one slaie his men that ioyned vnto Baal Peor And the Magistrate commaunding as in this case you see he did it was lawful for Phinees or any other priuate person to execute that sentence Phi. Why then was Phinees so highly commended and recompenced at Gods handes Theo. Not for attempting to kill without commission as you imagine but for his readinesse to accomplish the will of God and worde of Moses with his owne handes in the sight of them all and hastning in his own person to do that execution though he were the chiefe Prince of the tribe of Leuie and sonne to Eleazar the high Priest whose zeale for his seruice God so imbraced that he willed the office of the high Priest after his fathers death to remaine to him and his line for euer Phi. The Leuites before that slue 3300. of their neighbours brethren and friends for committing idolatrie and forsaking the true God Theo. Why shoulde they not when as God and the Magistrate appointed them so to doe Moses gaue them the charge in these words Thus saith the Lord God of Israel put euerie man his sworde by his side and goe to and fro from gate to gate through the host and slea euery man his brother and euery man his companion and euery man his neighbor And the children of Leui did as Moses had commanded and there fell of the people that day about three thowsand men What fact can be more lawfull than where God prescribeth what shall be done and he that beareth the sword authoriseth others to do it Phi. The Priestes you see made this
to come from God and not from man If you saie that Abia sought not for the kingdome but for Religion though his owne wordes sound to the contrarie knowe you that as Ieroboam was starke naught so Abia for all his crakes and your praises was little better The holie Ghost whose report wee must beleeue before yours saieth that hee walked in all the sinnes of his Father which hee had doone before him and that his heart was not right with the Lorde his God And the sinnes of his Father are thus described in the Scripture Iudah wrought wickednesse in the sight of the Lorde and they prouoked him more with their sinnes which they committed than all that which their Fathers had doone For they also made them high places and images and groues on euerie high hill and vnder euerie greene tree There were also Sodomites in the Land that did according to all the abominations of the people which the Lord had cast out before the children of Israel This was in the time of Roboam Abia walked in al his waies and therefore lacked not much of Ieroboans wickednesse though you make him a victorious religious conquerour That Edom and Libuah reuolted from king Ioram is verie true but that their reuolt was either lawfull or for religion that you proue not Edom had no such respect they were prophane persons and Infidels and as soone as they sawe their time they cast off the yoke which the kinges of Iudah had laide vpon them But not long after in the raigne of Amaziah they were meetely wel plagued by the king of Iudah for their reuolting he smiting tenne thowsand of them with the sworde and taking other tenne thowsand aliue and casting them down from the top of a rocke that they burst al to peeces thereby to giue them a iust recompence for their former rebellion The Scripture saith that Libuah a citie of the Priests as appeareth by the first allotment made in the 21. of the booke of Ioshua rebelled at the same time but it commendeth their rebellion no more than it doeth the rebellion of Edom. It will be as hard for you to proue either of them did well as that your selues may do the like Leude deedes are reported in the Scripture as will as good but not commended No more are these Phi. The text saith they did it because the king of Iudah had forsaken the Lord God of his fathers Theo. The Scripture doth not set down the cause why they might lawfully doe it but addeth this as a reason why God suffered these troubles to fall on king Ioram As if it should haue said no maruell to see these rebell against him for he had forsaken the God of his fathers And if this were a fault in king Ioram to forsake the God of his fathers as in truth it was how can the priests of Libuah be excused for seuering themselues from the line of Dauid without warrant from God that which was worse from the temple seruice of God established by expresse commandement at Ierusalem If that be true which you say that Libuah could neuer be recouered again to the kingdom of Iudah your selfe conuince them of a pestileÌ„t wicked reuolt For though they might pretend religion against king Ioram yet against the godly kings of Iudah which followed as Ezechiaâ— Iosias others they could pretend none therfore by your own confession it was no defection from Iorams idolatrie but a plaine rebellion against the kingdom of Iudah an vtter renouncing the Altar Temple seruice of God at IerusaleÌ„ Which how it might stand with their duties to God his law we yet conceiue not neither wil you euer be able to iustifie that fact of theirs with all your cunning and eloquence The ten tribes assembled to sight with Ruben Gad for building an Altar by Iordan against the commandement of God and therein they did but their duties If you aske by what authority they did it the answere is easie Their commonwealth coÌ„sisting of 12. tribes al indued with like soueraignty ten might lawfully represse two without any farther warraÌ„t as after they did the Beniamits for that filthy fact of the men of Gibeah But yet at this time Ioshua liued whom God himselfe had appointed captaine ruler of the 12. tribes therfore besides that authority which the whole had ouer a part that in common regimeÌ„t is sufficeÌ„t there was a superior magistrate at the denouÌ„cing of these wars and though they had fought togither as equals yet will not that example ratiâ—ie the rebelling of subiectes against their Princes which is your purpose Phi. Since Christs law religion was establâ—shed diuerse great honorable fights haue bin made for the faith against princes and prouinces that vniustly withstood and annoied the same Theo. What warres haue bin for religion since the comming of Christ if you meane between Prince Prince Realme Realme is bootles for you to seeke needlesse for vs to answere We dispute not what causes may iustly be pursued with battel but what what persons are permitted to take the sword against whom And vnto the time of Gregory the 1. which compasse you take to bring vs some presidents of your doings you can not shew that euer christian subiects did beare armes against their Princes for any quarrell of regilion were allowed Rebellions were rife in those ages as well as now but we deny that the Church of Christ or the godly Bishops of those times did euer consent allow or like those tumults much lesse procure them or vse them for the safegard of their Sees as you beare men in hand they did Phi. In old times of the primatiue church the christian Armenians lawfully defended themselues by armes against their Emperor Maximinus Theo. You that feare not to depraue the scriptures wil make no bones to corrupt vitiate other Stories at your pleasures The Armenians being no subiects but confederats wheÌ„ Maximinus would haue compelled them to worship idols to that ende offered them force resisted as they lawfully might of fellowes friends became straÌ„gers aduersaries The words of Eusebius are very plaine for that purpose Maximinus had also warre with the Armenians who of long time before that had bin friendes confederates with the Romanes That people being christians very deuoute this hatefull tyrant attempting to force to the sacrifices of idols diuels made them of friends foes of collegues enimies Phi. The Catholike people of diuers Prouinces haue often by force defended and kept their Bishoppes in their seates against the Infidels but specially against the commaundements of heretical Emperors yea and resisted them in defence of their Churches and the sacred goods of the same As the Citizens of Antioche defended their Church against the Emperour Galerius his officers Theo. Your generall and voluntarie
conscience towards God that is chiefly for religion indure grief and suffer wrong vndeserued If then Peter whom you make the Pillor of your Popedome neither would nor could depriue a poore crafts-man though an infidell or an heretike of his seruaunt or prentize what right can your holy Father now haue to depriue Princes of their crownes for those or any other causes and to absolue their subiectes from all obedience though they woulde yeeld it and haue sworne it That Parentes should loose the regiment and authority which by nature law they haue ouer their children is a late Popes decree which we litle regard not found in the extrauagants as you quote it Cap. â—in but in the Decretals of Sixtus lib. 5. de haereticis cap. 2. and were it to bee founde in ancient imperiall Lawes that heretikes should not bring vp their children for feare of infecting them which we greatly mislike not yet no Law Gods nor mans doth licence the sonne to dishonour relinquish forsweare and murder his father though a Turke or a Saracene as you teach subiectes to vse their Princes Phi. Thus much may as we trust suffice with all reasonable indifferent persons for defence of our brethren Theo. Thus much sufficeth to conuince you of that wherewith you were charged that is with liking labouring perswading and expecting the depriuation and destruction of your naturall and lawfull Soueraigne And since the foundation of your doinges hath neither warrant in the worde of God nor example in the church of Christ for a thowsande yeares as we trust the reader by this time perceiueth but onely dependeth on the late violent and wicked treacheries of Popes swelling with earthly pride and sauoring of filthy gaine who for the readier atchiuing of their interprise began with cursing alwayes ended in sowing seditions menaging rebellions kindling warres allowing periuries vpholding treasons and shaking the frame of the earth with horrible tumults I hope no Christian subiect wil be so vnwise as to beleeue you or so wicked as to follow you seeing you pretend religion defend rebellion come now to the publike patrocination of that which al this while you secretly cloked with cunning and suttle euasions knowing that God is the ordainer of Princes and will be the reuenger of all that presume to displace them or resist theÌ„ he hauing expresly commanded them to be serued obeyed and honoured Phi. It shall not be amisse perhaps to set downe the iudgement and practize of Protestantes in this very case which though it weigh litle or nothing with vs as being altogither both done and spoken of seditious and partiall affection to their heresie and against the lawfull Magistrate of God yet you seeing your own masters against you shall well perceiue that the resisting of Princes and Magistrates in cause of religion as also the subiectes taking armes for their defence in such a case is no way to be accounted treason but most lawfull according to your new Gospell Theo. As for the newnesse of our Gospell we say with Tertullian If Christ were euer and afore all the truth of his Gospell is as auncient and euerlasting Let them therefore looke to themselues to whome that is newe which in it selfe is olde Masters we haue none but Christ neither binde we our selues to the will of any but only of God And though by your owne confession in the next Section before we neede not busie our selues to defende euerie priuate mans writing or action concerning this matter yet least by deprauing the sense and abusing the words of some that neuer spake of the case in question betweene vs you should commend rebellion to the common people as allowed of either side yours and ours in cause of religion I will not be grieued to sitt their sayinges and to consider how far they make with you or against you Phi. First your grand-master Iohn Caluine putteth downe his oracle as a conclusion approued of your whole sect and confraternity in these wordes Abdicant se potestate terreni Principes dum insurgunt contra Deum immo indigni sunt qui censeantur in hominum numero Potius ergo conspuere oportet in illorum capita quam illis parere vbi sic proteruiunt vt velint spoliare Deum suo iure c. Which in english is thus Earthly Princes do bereaue themselues of al authoritie when they do erect themselues against God yea they are vnworthy to be accounted in the number of men and therefore wee must rather spit vppon their heades than obey them when they become so proude or peruerse that they will spoile God of his right and to the same place I further referre the Reader for his instruction Theo. Caluine is so well knowen to those that bee learned or wise for his great paines and good labours in the church of God that a few snarling Friers can not impeach his name though you neuer so wretchedly peruert his wordes Phi. Wee peruert them not we alleadge them as they lie Theo. Caluine in that place speaketh not one word of depriuing of Princes of their Crownes or resisting them with armes but onely sheweth that Daniell did rightly defend himself for not obeying the kinges wicked edict because it was ioyned with the manifest dishonor of God and restraint of his seruice which no king can prohibite By Abdicant se potestate he meaneth not they forfeite their Crownes but that they loose their power to commaunde in those thinges which in other cases that be lawfull they notwithstanding retaine And though the phrase to spit vpon their heades seeme somewhat harde yet the comparison so standing as he maketh it that is whether we were better vtterly to contemne their impious edictes and to defie such sinneful actes to their faces which is ment by spitting at them or else obey them spoyling God of his right and as it were pulling him out of heauen I say we must no way consent to yeelde any regard or reuerence to their idolatrous rage and pride against God This is all that Caluine in vehement wordes as his maner is vrgeth and this is farre from rebelling pursuing Princes with armes as you would haue his wordes to sound Phi. Let the Reader view the place see whether your construction be true or no. Theo. With a good will If you finde one word there of taking or vsing weapon or violence against the king I yeelde the whole For how could any such thing be grounded vpon Daniels example He submitted himselfe to bee cast to the Lions for the breach of the kinges commaundement And when he was mightily deliuered from their iawes by the hand of God all that he said to the king was against thee O king I did no euill meaning in that he serued GOD though the king by his Lawe had prohibited him so to doe for thirtie dayes Upon that Caluine saith Daniell coulde not obey the kinges edict
thou these thinges and who gaue thee this authoritie When Iohn began to baptize the Iewes sent priestes and Leuites from Ierusalem to aske him WHO ART THOV And when hee denyed him-selfe to bee either Elias or the Prophete that was looked for they inferred Why Baptizest thou then if thou bee neither Christ nor Elias nor the Prophete And euen so they asked the Apostles by what power or in what name haue you done this Philand The Apostles commission wee knowe but yours wee know not Theo. You can not bee ignorant of ours if you knowe theirs So long as wee teache the same Doctrine which they did wee haue the same power and authoritie to preach which they had Keepe your competent iurisdictions iudiciall cognitions and legal decisions to your selfe the sonne of GOD first founded and still gathereth his church by the mouthes of Preachers not by the summons of Consistories and hee that is sent to preach may not holde his tongue and tarie til my Lorde the Pope and his mytred fathers can intende to meete and list to consent to the ruine as they thinke of their dignities and liberties Phi. Despise you Councels Theo. By no meanes so long as they bee Councels that is sober and free conferences of learned and godly teachers but if they waxe wanton against Christ and will not haue trueth receiued vntil they haue consented wee reiect them as conspiracies of the wicked which no Christian ought to reuerence Phi. Had you trueth on your side you sayd somewhat but you hâ—ue it not Theo. Then should that be the question betwixt vs not whether the Prince might make Lawes for Christ without your consents or whether the Realme had competent power and authoritie to debate and determine without a Councell what religion they woulde professe For though the Prince and the realme haue doone nothing herein that Gods and mans Lawe doth not warrant yet may wee not suffer you to stande on these quirks to delude God and his tâ—ueth against the which as Tertullian sayth no man may prescribe not space of tymes not patronage of persons not priuilege of places He therefore that defendeth trueth is armed with authoritie sufficient though all the world were against him as it was against Noah when GOD saued him and drowned them for a monument of his iustice to quaile the route and paire the pride of such as after shoulde resist the meanest seruaunt that hee woulde sende Phi. Still you ground your selues as if you had the trueth Theo. If we haue the poorest Preacher in this Realme hath lawfull power enough to pronounce the Pope and all his Cardinals to be heretikes and therefore whether we haue or no must be the question Phi. Wee say you haue not and yet if you had your proceedings in it are disorderly Theoph. You must shew vs some reason Phi. The Prince and Court of Parliament hath no more lawfull meanes to giue order to the Church and Clergie in these things than they haue to make Lawes for the hierarches of Angels in heauen Theo. Will you suffer God himselfe to make Lawes for his Church Phi. What else Theo. And may not euery priuate man for his owne person embrace those Lawes which God hath made whosoeuer say nay Phi. Hee must Theo. May not the Prince and the people doe the like Phi. They may no doubt embrace the Lawes of God Theo. What if some Bishoppes will not agree they shall must the Prince and the people cease to serue God till the Clergie bee better mynded Phi. That is odiously spoken Theo. But truely The case betweene the Clergie and the Laytie in the first Parliament of her Maiesties raigne was whether God shoulde bee serued according to his woorde or according to the deuises and abuses of the Romish Church The prince as also the Nobles and coÌ„mons submitted their consents to the word of God the Bishops refused The foundation of all the Lawes of our Countrie being this that what the Prince and the most part of her Barons and Burgesses shall confirme that shall stande for good there was no disorder nor violence offered in that Parliament as you lewdly complaine but that to publike protection which the Prince and most part had agreed on Phi. In matters of faith the Prince and the laie Lords had no voices Theo. In making lawes they had Phi. True but lawes for religion they might not prescribe Theo. No more might Bishops It is only Gods office to appoint how he wil be serued Phi. Gods wil must be learned at the mouthes of Bishops Theo. They must teach leauing alwayes this libertie to the Prince and people to examine their doctrine and auoide their errours and if they teach not truth the Prince and people may repell them as the Parliament did which you speake of Phi. The decision of truth or heresie pertained not to that Court. Theo. They tooke it not vpon them Phi. Yeas The determination decision and definition of truthes and errours of the true worshippe of God and the false is attributed to that Court no lesse or rather more than to the foure first or any other generall councell Theo. The simple Rustikes of our Countrie doe not so grossely conceiue of their actes and decrees as you doe that woulde seeme great maisters in Israell For who knoweth not that in diuers realms haue beene diuerse positiue lawes and in this kingdome within our age cleane contrary Parliamentes No man is therefore so foolish as to thinke it neither is any besides you so malicious as to report it that the temporall States of this Realme tooke vpon them the absolute deciding of truthes and errours aboue the four first generall Councels yea the holy scriptures themselues not excepted Phi. What did they then Theo. They submitted themselues and the publike state of this Realme to the word of God which by law they might as well as the same Court six yeares before in the first of Queene Mary subiected this Realme to the Popes decrees and fansies Phi. The Parliament of Queene Marie can not be misliked for admitting the faith of their fathers Theo. Much lesse can the Parliament of Queene Elizabeth be reproued for receiuing the faith of Christ. Phi. The faith of Christ is in question the faith of our fathers is not Theo. The faith of Christ we bee bound to keepe the faith of our fathers we be not Phi. Keeping the faith of our fathers we can not misse the faith of Christ. Theo. What priuilege had our fathers more than we that they could not erre Phi. Aske thy father saith Moses and he will shew thee thine elders and they will tell thee Theo. Shall not we be fathers to our posteritie as well as our ancestors were to vs Phil. Yeas Theo. Then must our children aske of vs as we must of those that were before vs. If therefore we may erre why might not our fathers as
well erre in their generations before vs Phi. They kept the steppes of their fathers which if you doe you shall not erre Theo. This is the next way round about to come to the wood For how will you proue that euery generation which hath beene these 1500. yeares since Christ hath precisely kept the rules and limites of their forefathers Phi. You can not shew when or where they swarued Theo. If wee could not our ignorance in that point is no great securitie for your faith The defection of euerie age from their fathers might be either not marked or not recorded or since oblitered and therefore reason you proue your faith to haue descended from age to age without alteration before we beleeue it to be the faith of your fathers But what meaneth this that you prescribe that way to iudge of religion and the seruice of God which God himselfe prohibiteth Phi. Doth God forbid vs to follow our fathers Theo. In as plaine wordes as can be spoken with a tongue by the mouth of Ezechiel he saith Walke ye not in the preceptes of your fathers neither obserue their manners nor defile your selues with their idols I am the Lord your God walke in my statutes and keepe my iudgementes By Dauid he saith Let them not be as their fathers were a disobedient and rebellious generation a generation that set not their heart aright whose spirit was not faithful vnto God And dehorting them from their fathers steps To day saith Dauid if you wil heare Gods voice harden not your harts as in the day of coÌ„tention as in the day of temptation in the wildernes where your fathers tempted proued me though they had seen my workes Fourtie yeares did I contend with that generation and saide they are a people that erre in heart they haue not knowen my wayes By Zacharie he saith Be ye not as your fathers vnto whome the former Prophetes haue cried saying Thus saith the Lord of hostâ—â— turne you now from your euill waies and from your wicked workes but they would not heare nor harken vnto me saith the Lord. And what you count deuotion humilitie for the people to follow their fathers that God himself calleth defection conspiracie I haue protested vnto your fathers euer since I brought them out of the land of Aegypt to this day saying obey my voice Neuertheles they wold not obey nor incline their eare but euerie one walked in the stubbernesse of his wicked heart And of the children doing as their fathers did he saith A coÌ„spiracie is found among the men of Iudah and among the inhabitants of Ierusalem They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers that refused to heare my wordes With what face then can you deale so earnestly with the simple subiectes of this Land to regard neither God nor his word but only to runne the race of their Elders seeing God so straitly commaunded the children of Israel to beware the pathes and presidentes of their forefathers Phi. We must beware their wickednesse Theo. Then may they be wicked and so no paterns for vs or any others to follow Phi. The Iewes were wicked Theo. What charter can you shew that christians shall not be the like Phi. Hell gates shall not preuaile against the church of Christ. Theo. No more did they preuaile against the chosen and elect of Israel but the greatest number and gaiest men are not alwaies the church of God The foundation of God standeth sure and hath this zeale the Lord knoweth who are his Of his elect which are his true church our Sauiour hath pronounced it is not possible they should bee deceiued the rest haue no such priuilege yea rather the holy Ghost forewarneth that all besides the elect shall bee deceiued Our Sauiour our saith There shal arise false Christes and false Prophetes and shal shew great signes and wonders so that if it were possible they should deceiue the verie elect The rest then which are not elect they shall deceiue And so S. Paul speaking of the verie same deceiuers addeth whose comming is by the working of Satan with all power and in all deceiueablenesse of vnrighteousnesse among them that perish because they receiued not the law of the truth that they might be saued And therefore God shall sende them strong delusion that they should beleeue lies that al they might be damned which beleeued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrighteousnesse And S. Iohn speaking of the beast that made warre with the Saintes had power ouer euerie kindred and tongue and nation saith Therefore all that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the book of life So that the visible church consisting of good bad elect and reprobate hath no such promise but she may erre only the chosen of Christ which are the true members of his body properly called his church they shall not erre vnto perdition and those if you could point them out with your finger the people might safely follow otherwise if you set men to follow the rest of their fathers be they neuer so many neuer so graue neuer so godly to your seeming you bid them take the wide gate and broade way that leadeth to destruction because there were many that entered it before them Phi. Will you make vs beleeue that our fathers are perished Theo. Who are perished is not for vs to pronounce They were his seruants that iudgeth iustly neither haue we to medle with their doome but to looke to our owne yet this we can assure you that many be called and few chosen And therefore if you aduise the people to imitate the multitude of their fathers you teach them the right way to hell And though wee may not iudge of your fathers yet knowe you for a certainty that God is not afraide to iudge them and condemne them if they refused his truth as you do Neither is it any such daungerous doctrine to say that our forefathers haue sinned and displeased God as you woulde make it the godly haue alwaies confessed it of their fathers and not spared to tell the wicked so much to their fates Dauid slandered not his forefathers when he said We haue sinned with our fathers we haue done wickedly Our fathers vnderstood not thy wonders in Aegypt neither remembred they the multitude of thy mercies but rebelled at the Sea euen at the red Sea Daniell knewe what he pronounced when hee confessed O Lord to vs belongeth open shame to our kinges to our Princes and to our fathers because wee haue sinned against thee Ezechiah was not ashamed to say Our fathers haue trespassed and done euill in the eyes of the Lord our God and haue forsaken him and turned their backes And loe our fathers are fallen by the sword Iohn told the Pharisees to their faces their fathers were vipers and
vt Deorum vestrorum partes forsitan adoratis Crosses wee neyther worship nor wish for you that dedicate woodden Gods you happily adore woodden crosses as partes of your Gods But what neede I farther refell that councell as not catholike which was presently reiected and pithily confuted by the Bishoppes and churches of the West whose labours are extant at this day brought to light by men of your owne religion and saued from the moothes which you ment should consume them Thither wee sende you there you shall finde both your adoration of images disclaimed as vncatholike and the reasons and authorities of your second Nicene councell throughly skanned and scattered almost 800. yeares before our time Phi. That booke we receiue not as thinking it to be rather some late forgerie of yours than a monument of that antiquitie Theo. If you receiue not the books that were safe in your own keeping and published by your neerest friends howe should we trust the corruptions that are framed to your purposes and no where fouÌ„d but in your own libraries Phi. Since you distrust our writteÌ„ records why do you not beleeue the faithful report of the church which is the pillour of truth can not be corrupted The. Nay since forgeries be so rise that no father is free from them so grosse that euery child may discerne theÌ„ why do not you beleeue the report of God himselfe the founder and builder of the church and that witnessed in his word of which there is no suspition and against the which there is no exception Phi. As though we did not Theo. Then for adoration of images which you defend shew what presideÌ„t you haue in the word of God Phi. We neede not Theo. We know you cannot Phi. And I reply that we neede not The. Doth it concerne the christian faith and Catholike religion which the godly must professe or no Phi. It doeth Theo. Then must you shew some authority for it in the sacred scriptures or else they must repel it as impious Phi. We haue it by tradition from the Apostles Theo. You would haue wrested so much out of S. Basill but that your cunning failed you Phi. From them we had it Theo. Wee say you had no such thing from them and further we adde that if it be a matter of doctrine beliefe as you make it you must haue it testified in their writinges and not concealed among their traditions Phi. No Sir we beleeue many thinges whereof this is one that are not written but were deliuered vs by secrete succession Theo. The greater is your sinne and the vnsounder is your Creede In matters of faith you should beleeue nothing but that which is expressely warranted by the scriptures And therefore in this and other points of your Romish deuotion now brought to triall if you want the foundation of true faith and religion in vaine do you seeke to make a shew of catholicisme with such patches pamslets as Monks Friers haue forged colored with the names of fathers The catholike church of Christ neuer receiued nor beleeued any point of faith vppon tradition without the Scriptures Phi. We haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures al the fathers most euident reasons that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing at all Theo. Wee knowe you can bragge but you haue neither Scripture father nor reason to impugne that which we affirme Phi. For traditions we haue Theo. Tradition is any thing that hath beene deliuered or taught by word or mouth or by writing touching the groundes of faith or circumstances and ceremonies of christian Religion And therefore when you muster the fathers to disproue the scriptures and to establish an vnwritten faith vnder the credit of traditions you corrupt the writers and abuse the readers Phi. How can we doe that when wee bring you the very words of the Authors themselues Theo. Hâ—w can you choose but doe it when you force the fathers to speake against themselues Phi. Do wee Theo. Your Rhemish translators perceiuing the weight of their whole cause to lie on this haue marshalled nine fathers in a ranke namely S. Chrysostom S. Basill S. Hierom S. Augustine S. Epiphanius S. Ireneus S. Tertullian S. Cyprian and Origen but to what purpose can you tell Phi. To proue that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing Theo. Beleeue them as articles of our faith or exercises of our profession Phi. Why make you that distinction Theo. Because the very same fathers that say traditions must bee receiued besides the Scriptures auouch likewise as I before haue shewed that no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must be receiued or beleeued without scriptures Now choose whether you will graunt a flat contradiction in them or conclude with vs ergo the traditions which they meane bee no partes nor pointes of the christian faith And so these nine fathers on whose credits you thought to plant your late found faith hold nothing with you but rather against you Phi. How make you that appeare Theo. Uiew them once more Wee haue their plaine confession that all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures You produce them to witnes that your traditions bee not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your own deponents we conclude that your traditioÌ„s be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the catholik faith without which we can not be saued Looke well to this issue they must either dissent from your religion or from themselues Phi. Your maior is not yet proued Theo. Yes with firm surer authorities than those be which you bring let the places be skanned which I before rehearsed the matter left to the iudgement of the reader Or if you be loath to looke so far back examine shortly thâ—se that follow The holy Scriptures inspired from heauen are sufficient for all instruction of truth sayth Athanasius The Gospell saith Chrysostom containeth al things whatsoeuer is requisite for saluation al that is fully laid downe in the Scriptures In the two Testaments sayth Cyril euery word or thing that pertaineth to God may be required discussed SufficieÌ„t to vs for saluatioÌ„ is the truth of Gods precepts saith Ambrose And Augustin There were chosen to be written such things as seemed to the holy ghost sufficient for the saluation of the faithfull Vincentius Lirinensis whoÌ„ you greatly boast of but without all cause agreeth with the rest that The Canon of the Scripture is perfect sufficient more thaÌ„ sufficient to al things And againe Not that saith he The canon alone is not sufficient for al things as it were taking great heed least he should seeme to deny the fulnes of the scriptures which you purposely impugne vnder a colour of catholicisme by his writings Now cite not only nine but nines kore fathers if you wil for traditions the more you stirre the worse you
more than Tradition for the baptizing of children If any man sayth he seâ—ke for diuine authoritie in this matter we may truely coniecture by circuÌ„cision what effect the Sacrament of baptisme hath in infants vsing a very forcible argumeÌ„t in this case that if children might receiue the seale of the former couenant vnder Moses why not of the later established in the blood of Christ Phi. He saith we may coniecture it but he doth not say we may proue it Theo. He repeateth the reason with Veraciter conijcere possumus We may very truly coniecture and a true coniecture is no vntrue persuasion but as I said it was not then in doubt and therefore no maruaile if that Learned father laboured not that question to the depth Had it beene denyed as in our dayes it is he woulde haue founde the same scriptures to confirme it that we doe And to say the trueth his euident illations out of the Scriptures that baptisme is needfull for Infants make sufficient demonstration that baptisme is lawfull for Infants els it would follow that no child might be saued which is an hainous and monsterous error directly fighting with the manifest scriptures For where without baptisme they cannot be saued by reason original sin is not remitted but in baptisme as S. Austen concludeth out of the wordes of our Sauiour Except a man be borne of water and of the spirite he cannot enter the kingdome of God If children be excluded from baptism they be consequently excluded from the kingdome of God which is flatly repugnant to the word of God Phi. It is no meaning of ours to exclude children from baptisme but to let you vnderstand that you cannot shew by the Scriptures that children were baptized Theo. I graunt we cannot and adde we neede not The Scriptures we say containe al matters of faith not of fact That children were baptized we proue by the practise of Christes Church and not by the scriptures That children may bee baptized we proue not only by the Tradition of the Apostles but also by the sequele of the Scriptures themselues Our Sauiour saith of Children It is not the will of your father which is in heauen that one of these litle ones should perishe Now choose you whether they shall be saued without baptisme or perishe for lacke of baptisme Againe the Lord saith Suffer the litle children and forbid them not to come vnto me for the kingdome of heauen belongeth vnto such They must enter the kingdome of God before they can possesse it and enter it they cannot vntill they be new borne of water and the holy Ghost Now say wil you exclude them from that which God hath prouided for them or will admitte them to be heires with Christ before they bee engraffed into Christ by Baptisme The Apostle saith to the great comforte of all Christian Parents The vnbeleeuing husband is sanctified by the wife that beleeueth and the vnbeleeuing wife is sanctified by the husband that beleeueth els were your children vncleane but nowe are they holy This is spoken not of the secret election of the faithfull which is neither common to all nor knowen to any but of their Christian profession whereby they be called to be Sainctes that is an holy peculiar people vnto God For al things be holy that be dedicated to his vse this kinde of holines S. Paul deriueth from the roote to the branches If the roote be holy so are the branches If then Infants be partakers of the same vocation holynes with their parents without baptisme which is the seale of Gods couenaÌ„t with vs in the blood of his sonne neither we nor our children can be holy surely the children of Sainctes if they be excluded from baptisme are as vnholy and vncleane as the children of Infidels which vtterly subuerteth sainct Pauls Doctrine If to auoide this place you suppose holinesse to bee meant of the inward satisfaction of Gods spirite besides that children drawe inward corruption not holinesse from their Christian Parents yet this way wee also conclude that Children must bee Baptized for where the spirite of God is precedent the seruice of man must bee consequent as sainct Peter teacheth Can any man forbid water that these shoulde not bee baptized which haue receiued the holy Ghost So that take which you will and say what you can our conclusion is vnmoueable And since children bee defiled by Adam if they may not bee washed by Christ the disobedience of man shal bee mightier vnto condemnation than the grace of God and obedience of Christ vnto iustification which the Scriptures reiect as a wicked absurditie Wherefore the church absolutely and flatly may not assure saluation to children vnbaptized lest they seeme naturally innocent or generally sanctified without baptisme albeit their Parents desiring and seeking it if they bee preuented by mortall necessitie wee must leaue them to the goodnes and secret election of God not without hope because in their Parents there wanted no wil but an extremitie disappointed them and in the children the let was weaknes of age not wickednes of heart and so the sacrameÌ„t omitted not for any contempt of religion but by strictnes of time in which cases S. Augustine confesseth the want of baptisme may be supplied if it so please God mary they may not chalenge it nor we promise it Much more might bee sayde but I content my selfe with the former reasons till you refute them And hauing the certaine practise of the Apostles in baptizing Infants witnessed by the Church of Châ—ist and deliuered vnto the Church for the confirmation of those thinges which we alleage wee count them irrefutable Philand Neither doe I mislike the thing but I muse why Saint Augustine claymed wholy by Tradition if so much Scripture might bee brought for the matter Theoph. Expresse precept to baptize infantes or plaine example where they were baptized the scripture hath none and therefore Saint Augustine did well to reuerence the Tradition which hee sawe was Apostolike and if any man vrge vs to prooue that children were baptized wee must flee to the same Tradition with him But if it bee impugned as a thing vnlawfull and dissonant from the Scriptures we must then lift the ground of that Tradition by the scriptures because it toucheth the saluation or condemnation of Christian Infants And so would S. Austen haue exactly and learnedly doone wee doubt not if that point had beene controuersed in his time Philand Hee woulde you say but hee did not wee knowe and that causeth vs to take it for an vnwritten Tradition Theoph. A tradition we grant but agreeable to the Scriptures And though Saint Austen doe not say so that is no reason for you to conclude it is not so silence is no proofe Nay if hee had called it an vnwritten Tradition as hee doeth not that were no let but it might be confirmed by the scriptures
corporis quod monemus in ore cum loquimur signa vtique rerum dantur non res ipsae proferuntur propterea translato verbo linguam appellauit quaÌ„libet signorum prolationem priusquaÌ„ intelligantur Because by the toung I mean that part of the body which we moue in our mouthes when we speak the signes of things are deliuered not the things themselues therefore the Apostle to the Corinthes by a kind of translation calleth any vttering of signes or words before they be vnderstood a toungue Phi. In deed S. Paul speaketh of tongues not vnderstood when he saith they neither profite nor edifie but hee that thinketh S. Paul speaking of edification of mans mind or vnderstanding meaneth the vnderstanding of the words onely is fouly deceiued For what is a child of fiue or six yeres old edified or increased in knowledge by his Pater noster in english It is the sense therefore which euery man can not haue neither in English nor latin the knowledge whereof properly and rightly edifieth to instruction and the knowledge of the words only often edifieth neuer a whit somtimes buildeth to error destructioÌ„ as it is plain in al heretikes many curious peâ—sons besides Phi. As we should shewe our selues to be mad if we should say that English prayers doe edifie children before they come to the yeares of discretion or that the very hearing of their mother tongue doth sufficiently instruct English men though the sense of that which is spoken be neuer so darke obscure parabolicall and mysticall for then we shoulde crosse the very Principles of nature and the whole discourse of the Apostle who mainely teacheth that no man is edified except he vnderstande and meaneth by vnderstanding both the knoweledge of the words that enter our eares of the sense that affecteth our hearts so are you woorse than mad to defend that men may be edified by speach whereof they vnderstand not so much as one word to confute so shamefull an absurditie we neede neither Scriptures nor Fathers Children of sixe yeares old wil tell you they bee no whit the better for all your paines if they vnderstand not your wordes What will you not say that wil say this And when you that be masters in Israel are so blinde how great must the blindnesse of others be that take their light from you You resist not onely God and his trueth but you force your owne tongues to speake against your owne heartes For say your selues if a man speake Welch or Irish to you that vnderstand it not what will it profit you or which way can you be edified by it Phi. Welch or Irish would do vs no good but Greeke or Hebrewe would Theo. What difference between Hebrew and Irish to him that vnderstandeth a word of neither When the heart conceiueth not the sense of the words nor so much as distinguisheth the tongue whether it be Hebrewe or Irish for lack of knowledge howe can the Hebrewe or greeke tongue though the one bee sacred and the other learned instruct the hearer or helpe his vnderstanding more than Welch or Irish can The Apostles Rule If I come to you speaking with tongues not vnderstood what shall I profit you â—s generally true of all tongues Nemo edificatur audiendo quod non intelligit No man saith Augustine is edified with hearing that which he vnderstandeth not Linguas loquens seipsum edificat quod quideÌ„ fieri non potest nisi quae loquatur norit He that speaketh with tongues edifieth himselfe which is not possible except he knowe what hee saith as Chrysostome noteth And Ambrose Si vtique ad edificandum Ecclesiam conuenitis ea dici debent quae intelligant audientes If you come together to edifie the Church those thinges must bee spoken which the hearers may vnderstand If then there bee no edification where nothing is vnderstood a strange tongue bee it Hebrewe Greeke Welche or Irish cannot edifie the hearer that is ignorant of them by reason the heart perceiueth not the words much lesse the sense of that which is spoken Phi. We say the simple people and many one that thinke themselues some body vnderstand as litle of the sense of diuers Psalmes lessons and Oraisons in the vulgar toung as if they were in Latine Theo. And we say you do nothing now but cauill which in matters of trueth is not tolerable For what if the vulgar sort vnderstand not the perfect sense of euery verse or worde that is read in the Church will you thence inferre that the diuine seruice in a knowen tongue doth not edifiâ— Your selues steppe out the prowdest of you vnderstand not euery line letter that is written in the old New Testament Do the Scriptures therefore not edifie or blame you the holy Ghost for writing them because you doe not euery where reach to the depth of them What teacher can be so plaine but in debating matters of faith and saluation he shall be many times forced to passe the capacity of rude ignorant men Wil you therefore conclude against S. Paul that neither Prophets nor Preachers edifie In the epistles and so no doubt sermons of Paul himselfe there are and were some things hard to be vnderstoode Were the Preachings and writings therefore oâ— the Apostle vnprofitable Phi. We reason against your seruice not against the Scriptures Theo. As though the Psalmes and lessons in our seruice were not partes of the sacred Scriptures If therfore our diuine seruice do not edifie in respect of the psalms and lessons there song and read then the Scriptures themselues do not edifie and consequently S. Paul was ouershot when hee saide whatsoeuer things are written were written for our instruction and the Holy Ghost deceiued when he witnessed that the whole Scripture is profitable to teach correct and instruct Or if the spirite of God be trueth as there is no question he is then are you voide both of his spirite and of trueth also to say that diuers psalms and lessons do not edifie Phi. You be very snappish we speak of your praiers as well as of the Psalmes and lessons Neither doe we say the Psalmes and lessons do not edifie but yâ— the simple vnderstand not diuers of them no more than if they were in Latine Theo. They must be very simple that vnderstand not our praiers They containe nothing besides the confession of our sinnes to god the rendring of thankes for his graces and mercies bestowed on vs in Christ his sonne and the asking of such things at his hands as his wisedome seeth to be needfull and his goodnesse thinketh expedient for vs and all mankind And these things if any man vnderstand not being distinctly and daily pronounced in his mother tongue you may begge him for a naturall and doe him no wrong As for the Psalmes and Lessons since they be Gods not ours the question must not
diuided from our world when he commeth to any forwardnesse in Religion seeketh for this place which he knoweth only by hearesay and by relation of the Scriptures what shall I speake of the Armenians Persians Indians Ethiopians of Egypt that is hard by and hath such stoare of Monkes or of Pontus Cappadocia Caelesyria Mesopotamia and all the swarmes of the East They haue diuerse languages but one religion There are here almost as many Quires that sing the Psalmes in their seueral tongues as there be diuersities of nations Sainct Augustine vrgeth this which you defende that GOD shoulde not bee praised in a barbarous tongue as a manifest inconuenience against them that woulde not haue the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vsed to expresse the nature and substaunce of the Trinitie If one substaunce of the Father the Sonne and the holie Ghost may not bee vttered in the Greeke tongue ergo neither is it fitte that God shoulde bee praised in a barbarous tongue but if the later be vsed why not the former And that the later was vsed hee sheweth in these wordes Vna rogatur vt misereatur à cunctis Latinis Barbaris vnius Dei natura vt à laudibus Dei vnius nec ipsa lingua barbara sit vt Latinis aliena The one nature of one God is praied vnto by all the Latines and Barbarians to bee mercifull to them in so much that the verie barbarous tongue is not excluded from the praises of one God as belonging to the Latines more than to the Barbarians In Latine we saie Domine miserere Then belike this mercie ought to bee asked of that one God the father the Sonne and the holy Ghost but onely in the Hebrewe or Greeke tongue or at least in the Latine tongue and not in any barbarous tongue Marie if it bee lawfull not onely for the Barbarians in their language but for the Romanes conquered and compelled by the Goaâ—hes to learn their speech to say sihoraarmem which is as much as Lord haue mercy on vs why should it not be lawfull for the councels of the Fathers that were assembled in the Land of Grecia to cal one substance of the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost in their owne tongue homousion Thus much S. Augustine confessing that God was and might bee praised and prayed vnto in a barbarous language as well as in Hebrew Greeke or Latine and repeating a peece of the church seruice in the Gothian tongue which not onely them-selues vsed but the Romanes were forced to receiue in steede of Domine miserere when their citie was taken and surprised by the Gothes for Kyerie eleison which Gregorie two hundred yeres after borowed of the Grecians was not as yet in Sainct Augustines time vsed in the Church of Rome The very sauage people that offered vnto Diuels when they were conuerted vnto Christ were not denied to haue their Psalmes and prayers in their rude and vnpolished tongues as S. Hierom reporteth of the Bessians and others The passion and resurrection of Christ the tongues and letters of all Nations doe sound I speake not of the Hebrewes Greekes and Latines which Nations the Lord did dedicate in the title of his crosse that the soule is immortall and hath his being after the dissolution of the body the Indian the Persian the Goth the Aegyptian can largely discourse The wild Besâ—ians and they which goe cloathed in beastes skinnes for lacke of other apparel sacrifised men to the Ghostes departed stridorem suum in dulce crucis fregerunt melos haue turned their barbarous and fearefull noise into the sweete melodie of the crosse Other particulars might be brought but the report of Sainct Basill shall suffice for the generall order of praying and singing obserued as hee saieth in all the churches of God and therefore in those Nations and Countries where the common people coulde no Latine Greeke nor Hebrew but of force were driuen to vse their naturall language though it were barbarous before they could either vtter their own minds or vnderstand what others sayd The people with vs rising in the night goe to the house of prayer and with continuall teares making their confession to God and at length rising from prayers they sette them-selues in order to sing Psalmes Where being diuided into two partes they sing by courses eche side after other and so with varietie of Psalmes and prayers interserted they spende the night as soone as the daie breaketh all of them in common as it were with one mouth and one heart offer to the Lord a psalme of confession euery one of them making the woordes of repentance proper to him-selfe In respect of this order then if you refuse vs you must also refuse the Egyptians the people of either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lybia Thebais Palestine the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Arabians Phoenicyans 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Syrians the Armenians Babylonians other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 borderers on Euphrates generally al with whome vigils prayers and common psalmodies are esteemed And that this order of singing the Psalmes was generall throughout the whole Church of Christ were the people Iewes Grecians Romanes or Barbarians the woordes immediatly before doe witnesse To that accusation wherein we are blamed for the psalmodies I haue this to answere that the maner and fashion of singing Psalmes which is here with vs is agreeable and consonant to all the Churches of God If these words be true then not only the Egyptians South Indians Arabians and Syrians whom this Father nameth but the Persians East Indians Armenians Iberians Scithians and all other Nations had the same order of praying and singing in their Churches by the mouthes and voyces of the simple and vnlearned people And consequently either all the Christian men weomen and children in the world could speake and vnderstand one of the three learned tongues which is a ridiculous false and impious imagination or else eche nation had their publique prayers and Psalmes in their seuerall and barbarous tongues which is the point you would needes haue prooued before we passed any farther Phi. That was then the manner of the Church but since this which we vse hath beene thought by the wisest and godliest to bee most expedient and it is certainely seene to bee nothing repugnant to S. Paul Theo. You lacke good neighbours to helpe you that you bee forced so shamefully with your own mouthes in godlinesse and wisedome to preferre yourselues before the learned and Catholike fathers of all antiquitie Wee shewe you the auncient and vniuersall custome of Christs Church proportioning her prayers by the rule of S. Paul and directing them wholy to edifie the vulgar and simple people as much as might bee by plaine precept from God himselfe as they conceiued the Apostles speach you tell vs that you haue not onely chaunged that order of your owne authorities but that you haue conferred with some godlier and wiser
you suffer the father him-selfe to tell out his owne tale and bee content to heare as well the ending as the entring of it Hee saieth the bread is chaunged in nature into the flesh of Christ by the almightie power of the woorde expressing in what into what and by what the bread is chaunged moe parts you cannot make Phi. Wee need not Theo. And yet all these notwithstanding he meaneth no materiall nor corporall change of the bread or wine but that as in the person of Christ there were two distinct perfect substances vnited and ioyned the one his manhood that was seene the other his godhead that was hid euen so to the visible Sacrament persisting in his former substance doth the diuine essence infunde it selfe after a secret and vnsearchable manner proouing the presence of an heauenly vertue to bee there by the inuisible efficience Philand If you will haue the bread keepe his proper and perfect both nature and substance what change is there made in the bread Theoph. This chaunge is not the casting awaie of any thing that was in the bread either nature or substance but the casting vnto it of an heauenly and inuisible grace and so Theoâ—orete expresseth the mutation that is in this sacrament Non naturam ipsam transmutans sed naturae adiiciens gratiam Not changing or casting away nature it selfe but adding grace vnto nature And that is S. Ambrose his meaning when hee saieth Sunt quae erant in aliud commutantur The bread and wine are the verie same that they were both in nature and substance and are changed into an other thing Philand How can this be that they should be changed and yet continue the same but as wee expound it that in substance they be chaunged and yet in shew continue as they were before Theoph. This is your fansie wee know but the learned fathers by their change meane no such thing they teach not any detraction or diminution of that which was but an adiection and apposition of that which was not And therefore they witnes both as well the permanence of the elements in their former nature as their change into an other Chrysostome said as you heard before The bread sanctified is counted worthie to be called the Lordes bodie etsi natura panis in ipso permansit though the nature of bread remaine there still and Theodoret Neque enim signa illa mystica post sanctificationem recedunt à sua natura those mysticall signes doe not by Consecration depart from their nature And Gelasius Non tamen desinit esse substantia vel natura panis vini and yet the substance or nature of bread wine doth not cease or perish And to this verie sacrament S. Austen applâ—eth this Rule Omnis res naturam veritatem illarum rerum in se continet ex quibus conficitur Euerie thing containeth or keepeth the nature truth of those things of which it consisteth Phi. You refuâ—â— Cyprian you doe not expound him He saith the nature of the bread is changed you prooue it remaineth be not these contrarie Theo. Bâ— your exposition they are by ours they are not For the nature of bread wee say remaineth and is in nothing diminished but encreased with an heauenly vertue that is added to it And this though it be a chaunge to that which it was not yet is it no change from that which it was Philand That is properly chaunged which is altered from that it was Theo. And that is as properly saied to be chaunged which is increased with that it was not though it be not altered in substance from that it was The soule of man is often chaunged but neuer in substance The bodie from the cradle to the graue hath many increases and changes but in substance persisteth the same that it was before it came into the worlde Euerie thing that groweth keepeth that it had atchiueth that it had not and yet is that a change But what neede we other examples since the fathers themselues doe both by their words similitudes shew what changes they ment A childe is changed by baptisme not in loosing or altering the substance of bodie or soul which hee had but in attaining the grace blessing of God which he had not The Lorde himselfe is changed in person by his ascension not that the trueth shape or circumscription of his flesh are abolished but endued with immortall glory So shall he alter our vile bodies not by spoiling them of their substance but by imparting to them of his brightnes and as S. Paul writeth We shall not all sleepe but we shall be changed Phi. S. Pauls wordes are nothing to the Sacrament Theo. They are somwhat to the vse of the word which I proposed and yet Ireneus doth not sticke to resemble the change in the Sacrament to the verie hope and assurance which our bodies now haue of that glorie before they be changed or haue cast off their mortal and earthly corruption As saith he the bread which is of the earth receiuing the inuocation of god is now no common bread but the Eucharist consisting of two things an earthlie an heauenlie so our bodies receiuing the Eucharist be now not corruptible that is not wholly destinated to corruption as hauing hope of resurrection Phi. But S. Ambrose repeateth examples of corporall and substantial changes when he would proue that blessing in this sacrament ouerbeareth nature Theo. S. Ambrose doth not say that the bread is changed after the same manner but meaning to shew that praier and benediction worketh where nature cannot yea many times altereth nature hee bringeth seauen examples whereof fiue are no substantial changes in the end concludeth that if the praiers speech of meÌ„ could turn alter things aboue against nature much more can the word of christ bring to passe that the elements shal bee that they were yet be changed into that they were not and which by nature they are not Phi. He hath no such wordes in that chapter Theo. His conclusion there is this Sermo ergo Christi qui potuit ex nihilo facere quod non erat non potest ea quae sunt in id mutare quod non erant The worde of Christ who could of nothing make that which was not can hee not change those things which are into that which before they were not And in the next booke intitled De Sacramentis assuming the same matter and producing almost all the same examples and arguments he resolueth in these wordes Si ergo tanta vis est in sermone Domini Iesu vt inciperent esse quae non erant quanto magis operatorius est vt sint quae erant in aliud commutentur If there bee such force in the worde of the Lord Iesu that the things which were not at his worde beganne to be how much
Romanes or Grecians * Why these two words were not traÌ„slated into any tongue See Hieron Maâ—cel epist. 137. Alleluia vsed in this land by the Saxons that could no Latine Grego moral in Iob lib. 27. cap. 8. The Britans that could speake no Latine sung the praises of god in what touÌ„g then if not in their own Hieron tom 1. epist. 58. Hierom misconstered by the Iesuites Hieron in 1. Epist. 17 ad Marcel Hierom speaketh of the plough men in Bethleem where Christ was borne It is easie to alleage nine skore fathers in any matter to no purpose God grant it be but ignorance in the Iesuits to cite fathers in this sort The Rhemish Testament 1 Corinth 14. The Latine tongue was common not to all but to such as could meditate the Scriptures in this Lande Beda Histor. Angl. li. 1. ca. 1. Meditation of Scriptures doth not signifie the praiers of the Church If they searched the trueth with fiue tongues then did they read or heare the scriptures in four toungs besides the Latine The Latine tongue was common to those that were learned in those foure Nations Let them take Bede how they wil he maketh nothing for their Latine seruice in the words which they bring The Italian Monks which vnderstood not the SaxoÌ„ toung might haue the Latine seruice in their Abbey but that the people had it in their parish Churches caÌ„not be proued by any place of Bede Hauing Saint Pauls Rule that the people should vnderstand the praiers that are made in the church we neede not search in what tongue eche Nation had their seruicâ— These shifs of the Iesuits being refelled Saint Pauls text is clear for vs. The seruice of the primatiue Church manifestly confirmeth our construction of Saint Paul What order the Apostles tooke for Church seruice as the bookes which they most esteeme doe testifie Constit. Apost lib. 8. cap. 16. The Church seruice diuided between the bishop the whole congregatioÌ„ * Cap. 18. * Cap. 20. The people could not make these answers except they vnderstood the tongue that the Bishop spake in The liturgies of Iames Basil and Chrysostome prescribe like aunswers for the people in the praiers of the Church That which we alleadge out of these liturgies hath the true and vndoubted testimoâ—ies of the Fathers Chrysost. in 2. Cor. in hâ—m 18. Marke the forme of publike praier in Chrysostomâ— time * Can they haue plainer words Basil. hexam homil 4. Men weomeÌ„ children singing and praying in the Church seruice Iustin. Martyr Apol. pro Christianis 2. * Can they haue plaineâ— words Basil. hexam homil 4. Men weomeÌ„ children singing and praying in the Church seruice Iustin. Martyr Apol. pro Christianis 2. * Ibidem * Aug. in Psal. 54. * Ambros. hexam lib. 3. cap. 5. * Leo. sermo 3. de ieiunio 7. mensis The publike praier of the whole people more auaileable with God than the praier of the priesâ— alone * Tertul. in Apologet. * Quasi manu facta Isidor de eccle officiis lib. 1. ca. 10. de lection That al shuldâ— pray sing in the church is a dutie and therefore a necessitie Legum Francie lib. 1. cap. 66. De eccles diuer capitulis Const. 123. * Lyra saith if the people vnderstaÌ„d the priestes praier benediction they be bâ—tâ—er affected to god ward and answere Amen with more deuotioÌ„ 1 Corinth 14 Iustinian applieth S. pauls place to proue that the people should bee edified stirred by the priests words to coÌ„fesse with their mouthes the praise of God in his church The pâ—iaers speaches of their Masse booke at this day proue the people should vnderstand answere the Priest in the chiefest parts of their Church seruice He that speaketh to men that which they cannot vnderstand mocketh and deludeth theÌ„ August de Doct. christia li. 4. cap. 10. 1. Corin. 14. * Ordinarium Missae secuÌ„dum vsum Sarum * Ideo precorvos fratres orate pro me * Orate fratres sorores pro me * Dominus nebiscuÌ„ Oremus * Ordinarium Missae secundiâ— vsum Sarum Sursum corda habemus ad Dominum Et cum spiritu tuo * Sacâ—rd se verâ—ens ad populum tacita voce dicat Orate fratres sorores prome O mockerie to desire the people to pray for him and yet so to speake it that no man shal heare it The Papists haue turned edification into gesticulation It is the people and not God that needeth the Priestes voice in the church praiers * Psal. 27. * Aug. de magiâ—â—ro cap. 1. Speach necessary in respect of the people which if they vnderstand not silence would doe theÌ„ as much good If it be needful for the Priest to speak in the Church seruice it is as needeful for the people to vnderstand what he saith The end of speaking is that others maie vnderstand if therâ—ore that want the first is superfluous August de magistro cap. 1. The Priest at his Masse vttereth euerie word as if the people did vnderstand him and ioyne with him in prayer Oremus Gratias agamus Quaesumus Offerimus Laudamus Benedicamus Adoramus Al toungs are alike to God God no respecter of persons much lesse of toungs Pilates act is not so good a reason for the latine seruice as Caiphas prophesie was for the Popes infallible iudgement and yet either is verie foolish Origen contra Celsum lib. 8. All tongues are fitte for praier The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. The Rhemish Test. 1. Cor. 14. S. Augustine rackt by the Iesuites from his right meaning August epist. 118. cap. 5. * The worde should be hodie It is madnes to breake the custome of the vniuersall Church in thinges indifferent The Iesuites defend a new custome against the auncient and generall order of Christs Church are they not mad by S. Augustines rule Lyra. in 1. Cor. 14. Iohan. Eckins in locis communibus The south IndiaÌ„s euer had and yet haue their seruice in their mother tongue * Sigismund liber in rerum Moscouit arum Commentariis cap. de dâ—cimis So haue the Moscouites and Armenians * Petrus Bello de moribus Armeniorum All Africa Asia and the North parts of 〈…〉 â—nd barâ—arous tongues Aeneas Syluius hiâ—â— â—ohem cap. 13. God from heauen decided that the Russians and Morauians should haue their seruice in their natiue tongue though it were barbarous Concil Lateranens sub Innocent 3. ca. 9. * in plerisque partibus Populi diuersar linguaruÌ„ * Secundum diuersitates linguarum Mo tongues vsed in the west Church than the Latine tongue The general vse of the primatiue Church confiâ—meth the seruice in the English tongue All tongues allowed in the primatiue Church for men to make their publike prayers in The Iesuits are so Catholike that they haue not so much as one Father for the greatest points of their religion The walles of the Church were theirs but not the faith of the Church Pilates authoritie is all the holde the