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A10910 [The displaying of an horrible secte of grosse and wicked heretiques, naming themselues the family of loue with the liues of their authours and what doctrine they teach in corners. Newly set foorth by I.R. Whereunto is added certeine letters sent from the same family mainteyning their opinions, which letters are aunswered by the same J.R.] Rogers, John, fl. 1560-1580.; Batman, Stephen, d. 1584. 1579 (1579) STC 21182; ESTC S100037 92,004 238

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sinners c. but repent least that chaunce to you that came vpon them And againe looke I pray you howe you stumble in your owne tale You would prooue that none hath receiued their ministerie from the mouth of God you'speake of Paule did not Christ speake to him after his ascention from heauen and I pray you tell mee what ministration that euer was true came frō other then Gods owne mouth you are taught to flee such boasters like enough for so Satan hath alwayes taught his children And as concerning the badge whereby you woulde knowe them is as you set downe by publique declaration which is vtterly false For Moyses onely shewed his ministration to the Israelites Abraham to his children Noc to his familie Lott to his housholde and all the Prophets to Gods peculier children the Apostles in priuate houses c. And nowe to be short the disciples of Christe ▪ or his worde which are taught by the doctrine of Christ our sauiour out of the mouth of H. N. do confesse freely before all men the ground of their faith and religion and though you will not credit it yet it doth not followe that it is not so except this reason as God forbid should alwayes holde like as it hath holden of late Because men say I am a theefe therefore no proofe of lawe the testimonie of my neyghbours with whome I liue nor mine owne words against so simple an alligation must be permitted but all is vntrue nowe except it be to proue your false words slaunderous brutes trewe Here we finde will and vniustice on your parte to haue more rule then equitie or good reason And nowe therefore master Rogers will I euen out of loue to an admonition of you to your preseruation display vnto you a little of the difference betwixt the doctrine of H. N. yours He exhorteth according to the doctrine of Iesus Christ mentioned in the Scriptures to true repent●unce godly loue an vpright faith and dutifull obedience c. euen like as many of you at this day in words do but yet he with more power for he manifesteth according to the trueth that none among all the children of men shal be found meete in the sight of the Lord to beare the names of Christians boast they neuer so much of their Christianitie freedome or iustification by Christe in their vnregenerated life as they wil which hath not submitted them selues in true repentance vnder the obedience of Gods holie lawe which is administred vnto them in the seruice of Loue for to become first disciples of the same worde to a reformation of their owne wayes and not to go presently foorth with the knowledge and teach others as you do before they be come taught and reformed thereby neyther yet to iudge others therwith as you now do before they be come first iudged thereby which he calleth the true baptisme in the name of the father And then being so taught vnto Iesus Christ in the holie lawe to take vp in the beleefe their crosse daily on them with Christ against the sinne which he calleth the true baptisme in the name of the Sonne vntill that Christe which is the way the trueth and the life it selfe haue gotten a liuing shape or fourme in them by faith and that they through the Spirite of loue or Christ be raised vp againe in a newe life which he calleth the true baptisme in the name of the holy Ghost wherevnto all the Familie of Loue or of God at this day are louingly called and doe meane by Gods assistance most earnestly to endeuour themselues but yet with much more quietnesse mought they haue rest by such enimies to all godlynesse as you are Although you be vnaquainted with this doctrine ▪ or rather true baptisme here following yet would wee not therefore haue you belye vs according to your accustomed manner and saye that we deny the holy sacrament therof And although this infallible Christian doctrine of Loue Faith Obedience and Life which is taught by H. N. in the seruice of Loue accordeth with all Scriptures remaineth yet vnknowen much lesse practised amongst you free ones or Lybertines and this true repentance which is taught vnder the obedience of the holy lawe of God the Father this true crosse of Iesus Christ which is taught vnder the obedience of the beleefe of God the Sonne and this true resurrection or newenesse of life which is taught vnder the obedience of the loue of God the holie Ghoste is nowe blasphemed despised and resisted as an vnneedefull thing of you yet is the same neuerthelesse by the Familie of Loue or of God found to be the olde and true way corespondent with all the doctrine of the Apostles of Iesus Christ and therefore so needefull that without it looke ouer the Scriptures againe so m●ny as be wise among you there shall no man finde mercie with God or els through Iesus Christ become saued Then Alas master Rogers ▪ alas what haue you done I hope nothing yet but out of ignorance I would then you woulde looke better into the matter for if H. N. be a minister of the Lord then you haue much ouershot your selfe I leaue Stephan Bateman to the righteous iudgement of the Lord as one in whome there is small hope of any goodnesse Wherefore the Lorde God for his Christes sake graunt you eyes of vnderstanding and a repentant heart to aske forgiuenesse for so maliciously blaspheming Gods loue and trueth extended towardes vs out of mercie vndeserued and to aske mercie for deprauing such a gratious worke of God published forth nowe in the last time to all mens preseruation that desire to walke ▪ therein whereof we shal be right glad and then shal you be deliuered from that lying spirite which nowe seeketh like as in times past with moste horrible slaunders lyes to deface all good all such as indeuour themselues therevnto So shal it come to passe to Gods glorie your saluation our comfort Amen Your vnknowen friend The aunswere of I. R. to ▪ the letter of the Familie I Receiued a letter from you as from an vnknowē friend conteining matter inuectiue against my booke as also verie many contumelious slaunderous speaches touching my honestie both which to aunswere you shall finde me readie and willing although not with like speach of disdaine sauouring of the spirite of enuie and not of loue To all which speach touching my honestie this shall serue for answere the Lord deale so and so betwéene vs as you vniustly charge me with waightes measures wares c but the contents of my booke disquieteth your moode the which you shal finde more large in aunswering 1 The first matter you tell me that no honest man woulde assay to defende so vnhonest attempts to defend my honestie I will not in this place my protestation shall serue but if the cause be dishonest then I am worthy great reprehension but you mistake me vtterly that I reprehend
knowen the way of righteousnesse then after they haue knowen it to turne from the holy commaundement giuen vnto them Also the Epistle of Iude verse 4. For there are certeine men crept in whiche were of olde ordeined to this condemnation vngodly men they are whiche turne the grace of GOD into wantonnesse which denie God the onely Lord and our Lord Iesus Christ. Thus hath the holy Ghost decyphered all false teachers and giuen warning to his children to beware of them It is necessarie that heresies be saith S. Paul that those that are perfect may be manifested And surely Gods children haue thereby great triall and exercise of their faith and the Lorde our God can make such heretiques to serue his purpose euen to his owne glory that his childrē being strengthened by him may not be ouer taken in the sleightes and subtilties of Satan nor his impes but in the great temptation and seas of errours may abide stedfast in the Lorde Iesus and in his promises maugre the malice of the diuell If euer there were disturbers of the Church whereby these scriptures and prophesies may be fulfilled I thinke that nowe is the time For what with the bloudie Papistes with their fire and fagot continuall warre with horrible murders on the one side and the Anabaptistes Free will men Arrians Pelagians and the Familie of Loue on the other side Christes Church hath little rest and small fauour in the sight of man but spurned at on euery side But blessed be the Lorde our God who in the middest of all calamitie and miserie which his children daily suffer yet can not be driuen back by any torment to denie the Lord Iesus nor his known truth manifested to all the world and the Lord raiseth vp stil some of his children to withstand Sathan and all his rable which striue against grace And surely these and like errours are great exercises of our saith how constant we will abide in the day of triall Therfore though the world rage neuer so much yet our graund captaine biddeth vs to be of good chéere saying Ego vici mundū I haue ouercome the worlde In whose cōfortable promises we stay our selues and assuredly beléeue that although the ship of Christ be tossed vp downe with boistrous winds yet perish it cānot nor the lest y pertaine to him No dout many of Gods déere children fal into many snares of errors but they by grace are called backe againe if not willingly yet forceably so that they can not perish in those wayes For as our sauiour saith that such times should come that if it were possible the elect should be deceiued But it is not possible to be deceiued and perish though our God doth many ways trie vs and maketh vs examples and patterns one of vs to an other that his louing kindnes might appéere more notable in our preseruatiō we be prouoked thereby to shewe a thankful hart in obedience to his will also be occasioned to craue at his hands continually a perfect perseuerāce of our faith in him euen to y end Which we shal be sure to obtaine so that no false doctrine of H. N. Vittel nor any other shall preuaile once to touch vs bicause our hope resteth in the Lord Iesus And I verily beléeue y although some of Christes houshold be entered into those steps of H. N. yet I dout not but the Lord in mercy wil cal thē if they wil not come he wil forceably compel them if they be his Therefore you that are entered into the Familie through the swéete sugred persuasions of Vittell or any others I beséech you euen for y Lord Christes sake consider from whome you are departed euen from our Lorde Iesus who hath bought you whose armes are stretched abroade ready to receiue you againe with the reioycing of Angels ouer your conuersion How acceptable you should be vnto Christ his Church by proofe shal be perceiued but especially how beneficiall you shall be thereby to your owne souls and what rest to your conscience none can expresse but such as taste the same are partakers of the same grace of God in Christ Iesus For this is vndoubtedly true that to wander astray is a propertie belonging as well vnto Gods chidren as vnto others and their often falling is by many examples of the Scriptures made manifest but that they continue streying and neuer returne home or that by falling they willingly wallowe in the myre is a certaine note and mark that they pertaine not vnto the Lorde Iesus nor are partakers of his death Therefore if ye willingly perseuere and continue followers of H. N. Vittell or any such you are strangers in Christes schoole and it will be sayde vnto you Depart I knowe you not Auoyde therefore the daunger ye be in acknowledge that your teachers may erre and are mortall men For since the Apostles times there haue bene none so priuiledged but that he might erre The olde writers did euer giue that title vnto the holy Scripture and desired to be beléeued no further thē they agréed with the same but your teachers will néedes haue their doctrine to be credited and beléeued without examination or triall Assuredly if you did discerne them aright by the holy historie you should easily perceiue thē deceiuers and your selfe deceiued For if it be a trueth they teach vnto you why teach they in corners which trueth loueth not Euery truth is able to defend it selfe especially the truth of God and it is of that courage boldnesse y there is no power be it neuer so mightie but it dare stand fast and abide the triall so inuincible a vertue is truth Did Christe or his Apostles being threatened not to publish a truth c●●ceale the same for feare of life No verily to the losse of life and limme they stoode in the quarell of God against the tyrants of the world and preuailed But Christopher Vittell your teacher thinketh it sufficient to seduce you in corners and suffer you to be imprisoned but for him selfe he is safe ynough A good sheepeheard saith Christ will giue his life for his sheepe but your shepheards wil not hurte their fingers for their Familie but lurke in corners and delude and deceiue greatly your simplicitie Alas why are you so bewitched or so berest of sense so to imagine that a mortall man an obscure Authour whome you neuer sawe nor knewe hath onely the truth and all the world else seduced and deceiued for so he him selfe confesseth and that any other truth then the scriptures teach is of necessitie to be beléeued or that his Glasse of righteousnes which you neuer sawe hath in it the wisedome ▪ of God fully made knowne or his Euangelium regni Gospell of th● kingdome is that testament sealed by Christes bloud Surely beware I aduise you betimes prouoke not the Lord our God so vengeance with these absi●rde blasphemies For it is witnessed He will hasten his comming and will not be
which was written priuatly for conscience sake to whom I wholly agree in all thinges sauing heresies and especially those y are secreat therefore for my excuse I protest I could very wel haue kept these priuate conferences secret had not some Godly and learned ernestly moued me to the contrarie And if I had thought that these rude aunsweres shuld haue come abroad I would haue vsed some more diligence in penning them but since the family haue coppies hereof I minde not to add any thing least they exclame against me as you see they doe What part of our doctrine they finde fault with by perusing these leters thou shalt perceiue The Lord in mercy open their eyes that they may at the last beholde their backsliding from the right wayes of the Lorde our God manifested and bring them O Lorde againe into thy folde that we all may reuerence that good sheepeherde of our soules Christe Iesus Amen A Letter of the Familie to I. R. I Haue bestowed diligence M. Rogers in perusing the Booke which ye set out intituled The displaying of an horrible sect of grosse and wicked heretiques naming them selues the Familie of Loue with the liues of their Authours and what doctrine thei ●each in corners with yet certain Articles confessed by two of the Familie before Syr William Moore which when I went about to peruse I founde it so friuolous and voyde of good argument that I much maruelled what might be the cause why the authour deuised such vntruthes and chiefly bicause he put it in print at the instance of his friendes nay rather enimies for friends persuade honest things and enimies dishonest You write that the paines you tooke was for a priuate friend fallen into that errour and though you were moued to put it in print yet you were loath for diuers causes but chiefly bicause your conscience tolde you that the eyes of the worlde should by that meanes see your manifest vntrue reportes for falshoode would haue corners and feareth the light If it were only ignoraunce it were the better to be borne withal but indeede as it seemeth it is come out of malicious enuie Many goodly shewes can not colour the matter for it is a custome for men for good maners sake to alledge great wants to performe their intents and yet will aduenture their follies with hazard of good or euill successe A rude stile is neuer hurt to an honest cause for the honestie beautifieth al deformities of rudenesse But for the bragge to haue some other of more iudgement to replie I verily think that no honest man of any wit will assay to defend so vnhonest attemptes least he be drawne in by that means with this Author I. R. to be found foole-hardy or rashhastie perfourming therein as well by writing as by deede vncharitable i●ueighings impugnings o● that which you confesse you are not acquainted withall and for that cause you are rightly termed of some for slaundrers For in deede many knowing the people slandered to be honester then the slaunderers call in doubt whether those sayings might be true which are vitered against them Nowe ye shall see this good childes care as out of dutie to Gods Church euen as blinde as bolde steppes in first to reprehend and condemne the loue of God and Christe which is the holy Ghoste euen out of a zeale to aduaunce his purpose whereby he might shewe the fruites of a iustifying faith and bicause he hath long time looked about and yet findeth none that wil be so maddas to enter with him see now howe he can according to his blindnesse reproue others not seeing that they out of more modestie for certaine causes forbeare to write least that they with like rashnesse should enter into like follie This Familie of Loue saith he is muche increased within many Shieres of this realme which he rueth much who s●eth not this his greate blindnesse and follic Could any man I am bold herein with you M. Rogers r●e the prosperitie of the housholde of God vnlesse he him selfe were of the houshold of the diuel and who would speake so shamefully or rather shamelesly againste Gods Ministers as you doe were he not one of the Ministers of the diuell I pray you consider the ground whereon you lay your foundation is against one H. N whome you neuer knewe nor vnderstoode of For that I haue heard thereof truely it is not the signification of any mans name But as Christ gaue out his name by two Caracters or letters A. and ● ▪ so I see not 〈…〉 he that is to say Christe may be as well all the other letters betwéene them two in as much as he is the first and the last But it is very farre from M. Rogers minde to looke ▪ so narrowly into the matter I remember in the Apo. 2. it is written To him that ouercōmeth will I giue to eate Manna that is hidde and will giue him a white stone and in that stone ● newe name written which no man knoweth sauing he that receiueth i● Now if he that hath inueighed against H. N ▪ hath in the omnip●tent power of the most highest ouercome in that manner as is aforesaide then can he knowe this name Otherwise let him all his adherents for euer hereafter be silent least they seeming to teache GOD what he hath to doe perish according to the witnessing of the Prophete Beholde ye despisers wonder and be confounded for I doe a worke in your dayes which ye shall not beleeue albeit any one should tell it you I must also a little put you in minde of your impudent dealings You say you haue read a confession of their faith newly made which neither you nor any of your adherēts can in any worde iustly reproue why shoulde you then vnlesse it were out of cankered enuie according to your forefathers nature and accustomed maner so standerously report of vs as that we are ashamed to acknowledge our beleefe You affirme also that much more false doctrine then you haue set out in that booke is taught among the people which to confute you complaine your selfe to be vnable to performe for the lacke of learning neuerthelesse you will giue vs a taste of this doctrine to giue the children of God to beware thereof yet many bookes you say are abroade which you haue not seene and againe some you haue seene but yet had no leasure to peruse for the vse of the people is not to let any but their owne companie to see their bookes neither wil they confer or talke in any points of doctrine but with such as them selues Nowe I pray you ●ee what a Caueat you put in to excuse your malice in that you haue not seene some of the bookes and yet those some which you haue seene you had no time to peruse sufficiently neither could you conferre with the people for their subtilties cause Loe here is like to proceede some good stuffe I warrant you For how can you