Selected quad for the lemma: child_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
child_n	aaron_n	israel_n	son_n	3,384	5	5.8132	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88948	A reply to Mr. Rutherfurd, or A defence of the answer to Reverend Mr. Herles booke against the independency of churches. VVherein such objections and answers, as are returned to sundry passages in the said answer by Mr. Samuel Rutherfurd, a godly and learned brother of the Church of Scotland, in his boke entituled The due right of Presbyters, are examined and removed, and the answer justified and cleared. / By Richard Macher [sic] teacher to the church at Dorchester in New England. 1646.	Mather, Richard, 1596-1669.	1647 (1647)	Wing M1275; Thomason E386_9; ESTC R201478	144,474	133

allege_v do_v abundant_o and_o plain_o prove_v the_o point_n in_o hand_n and_o therefore_o mr._n rutherford_n shall_v bear_v with_o we_o if_o we_o sometime_o argue_v from_o example_n of_o the_o old_a testament_n as_o for_o that_o which_o follow_v where_o he_o say_v but_o our_o brethren_n hold_v that_o the_o call_n of_o the_o levite_n and_o of_o the_o pastor_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n be_v different_a as_o the_o officer_n and_o church_n of_o the_o jewish_a and_o christian_a church_n be_v different_a the_o answer_n be_v that_o i_o do_v not_o remember_v that_o we_o have_v speak_v one_o word_n of_o this_o matter_n either_o one_o way_n or_o other_o nor_o do_v he_o mention_v any_o place_n where_o we_o have_v speak_v aught_o of_o these_o thing_n and_o for_o the_o thing_n itself_o though_o many_o difference_n may_v be_v assign_v between_o the_o levite_n and_o pastor_n of_o the_o new_a testament_n and_o between_o the_o jewish_a and_o christian_a church_n yet_o i_o know_v no_o such_o difference_n between_o they_o but_o that_o in_o thing_n which_o be_v of_o general_a and_o common_a nature_n concern_v they_o both_o in_o those_o we_o may_v lawful_o argue_v from_o they_o and_o their_o time_n unto_o ourselves_o and_o our_o time_n if_o mr._n rutherford_n know_v we_o have_v give_v any_o such_o difference_n as_o will_v not_o suffer_v we_o thus_o to_o argue_v when_o he_o shall_v express_v the_o same_o we_o may_v consider_v further_o thereof_o our_o brethren_n grant_v pag._n 49._o that_o it_o want_v all_o example_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n that_o the_o people_n lie_v on_o hand_n answ_n and_o we_o have_v also_o in_o the_o same_o pag._n 49._o render_v the_o reason_n hereof_o viz._n because_o elder_n then_o be_v not_o want_v why_o then_o do_v not_o our_o brother_n ingenuity_n so_o far_o prevail_v with_o he_o as_o to_o mention_v this_o when_o he_o mention_v the_o other_o however_o yet_o this_o he_o may_v be_v please_v to_o observe_v that_o as_o we_o grant_v the_o thing_n he_o speak_v of_o so_o themselves_o i_o think_v must_v grant_v also_o that_o it_o want_v all_o example_n in_o the_o new_a testament_n where_o ordinary_a elder_n do_v impose_v hand_n on_o ordinary_a elder_n for_o my_o part_n i_o remember_v none_o nor_o do_v i_o remember_v that_o themselves_o have_v yet_o produce_v any_o these_o who_o lay_v on_o hand_n on_o the_o levite_n numb_a 8._o be_v elder_n and_o our_o brethren_n say_v it_o be_v like_a they_o be_v but_o 1._o they_o do_v not_o as_o elder_n 2._o but_o as_o represent_v the_o people_n not_o as_o elder_n civil_a for_o that_o belong_v to_o aaron_n and_o his_o son_n levit._n 8._o else_o it_o will_v follow_v that_o where_o a_o church_n have_v no_o magistrate_n to_o lay_v on_o hand_n there_o the_o church_n may_v do_v it_o nor_o do_v they_o lie_v on_o hand_n as_o ecclesiastical_a elder_n because_o what_o these_o which_o lay_v on_o hand_n do_v they_o do_v as_o from_o the_o congregation_n for_o 1._o these_o levite_n be_v take_v in_o stead_n of_o the_o first_o bear_v of_o israel_n and_o not_o instead_o of_o the_o first_o bear_v of_o the_o elder_n only_o numb_a 3._o 40_o 41._o 2_o they_o be_v present_v to_o the_o lord_n as_o a_o offering_n of_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n not_o of_o the_o elder_n only_o 3._o when_o the_o multitude_n bring_v a_o oblation_n the_o elder_n put_v their_o hand_n on_o the_o head_n of_o the_o sacrifice_n levit._n 4._o 15._o instead_o of_o all_o the_o multitude_n answ_n in_o relate_v this_o passage_n our_o meaning_n be_v exceed_o mistake_v and_o both_o our_o meaning_n and_o our_o word_n represent_v far_o amiss_o unto_o the_o reader_n the_o particular_n which_o in_o this_o respect_n may_v be_v except_v against_o be_v such_o as_o these_o 1._o that_o report_v we_o to_o say_v it_o be_v like_a they_o who_o lay_v on_o hand_n be_v elder_n he_o there_o break_v off_o the_o speech_n and_o so_o suppress_v that_o which_o follow_v wherein_o we_o first_o of_o all_o do_v give_v a_o explication_n in_o what_o respect_n they_o may_v be_v say_v to_o be_v elder_n viz._n as_o be_v the_o chief_a and_o principal_a member_n of_o the_o congregation_n and_o next_o of_o all_o we_o do_v add_v that_o nevertheless_o therein_o example_n do_v prove_v the_o point_n if_o two_o thing_n be_v consider_v which_o there_o we_o do_v express_v but_o both_o these_o particular_n i_o mean_v both_o the_o explication_n and_o the_o addition_n or_o exception_n be_v whole_o suppress_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n and_o so_o the_o concession_n it_o be_v like_a they_o be_v elder_n be_v leave_v stand_v alone_o by_o itself_o 2._o he_o report_v we_o to_o say_v they_o do_v it_o not_o as_o elder_n civil_a for_o that_o belong_v to_o aaron_n and_o his_o son_n wherein_o he_o father_n on_o we_o a_o palpable_a error_n of_o account_v aaron_n and_o his_o son_n to_o be_v elder_n civil_a or_o magistrate_n which_o never_o come_v into_o our_o thought_n nay_o it_o be_v so_o far_o from_o we_o that_o we_o plain_o say_v the_o contrary_a in_o that_o very_a place_n to_o wit_n that_o they_o be_v elder_n ecclesiastical_a our_o word_n be_v these_o if_o they_o that_o be_v the_o child_n of_o israel_n do_v it_o as_o elder_n then_o either_o as_o elder_n and_o governor_n ecclesiastical_a or_o as_o civil_a governor_n but_o not_o the_o first_o for_o that_o charge_n belong_v to_o aaron_n and_o his_o son_n levit._fw-la 8._o and_o these_o levite_n now_o ordain_v in_o which_o word_n we_o plain_o ascribe_v to_o aaron_n and_o his_o son_n the_o charge_n of_o elder_n and_o governor_n ecclesiastical_a but_o not_o of_o civil_a governor_n as_o mr._n rutherford_n be_v please_v to_o report_v 3._o in_o these_o word_n else_o it_o will_v follow_v that_o where_o a_o church_n have_v no_o magistrate_n to_o lay_v on_o hand_n there_o the_o church_n may_v do_v it_o our_o word_n be_v so_o miserable_o mangle_v that_o no_o tolerable_a sense_n can_v appear_v for_o here_o be_v express_v a_o inference_n or_o consequence_n that_o must_v follow_v and_o yet_o no_o ground_n or_o antecedent_n at_o all_o from_o which_o it_o shall_v follow_v which_o be_v to_o represent_v we_o to_o the_o world_n as_o man_n that_o be_v loesi_fw-la cerebro_fw-la for_o man_n that_o be_v in_o their_o right_a wit_n i_o conceive_v will_v scarce_o ever_o argue_v in_o this_o fashion_n as_o here_o we_o be_v report_v to_o do_v but_o our_o word_n be_v these_o if_o the_o second_o be_v say_v viz._n that_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n do_v lay_v on_o hand_n as_o civil_a governor_n than_o it_o will_v follow_v that_o civil_a magistrate_n though_o no_o church-officer_n may_v impose_v hand_n in_o ordination_n of_o church-officer_n and_o so_o the_o point_n be_v gain_v viz._n that_o church-officer_n may_v be_v ordain_v by_o those_o that_o be_v no_o church-officer_n which_o we_o do_v further_o manifest_v in_o the_o follow_a word_n in_o this_o manner_n if_o the_o magistrate_n may_v do_v it_o than_o it_o will_v follow_v that_o a_o church_n that_o have_v no_o magistrate_n may_v perform_v this_o action_n by_o other_o the_o fit_a instrument_n she_o have_v for_o which_o we_o there_o give_v this_o ground_n for_o that_o this_o be_v not_o a_o work_n proper_o tie_v to_o the_o magistrate_n office_n because_o then_o the_o church_n in_o the_o apostle_n time_n want_v magistrate_n can_v not_o have_v have_v officer_n the_o contrary_a whereof_o we_o say_v be_v manifest_a in_o the_o scripture_n act._n 14._o 13._o tit._n 1._o 5._o this_o be_v our_o manner_n of_o argue_v in_o the_o place_n allege_v which_o be_v far_o different_a from_o that_o which_o mr._n rutherford_n report_v as_o we_o 4._o whereas_o he_o report_v we_o to_o say_v nor_o do_v they_o lie_v on_o hand_n as_o ecclesiastical_a elder_n because_o what_o these_o which_o lie_v on_o hand_n do_v they_o do_v as_o from_o the_o congregation_n in_o this_o he_o also_o report_v we_o to_o speak_v quite_o beside_o our_o plain_a meaning_n and_o express_v word_n for_o whereas_o he_o so_o set_v down_o this_o sentence_n as_o that_o the_o latter_a clause_n or_o branch_n therein_o be_v make_v the_o reason_n of_o the_o former_a the_o truth_n be_v this_o that_o these_o clause_n in_o the_o answer_n have_v no_o dependence_n the_o one_o upon_o the_o other_o at_o all_o but_o the_o former_a have_v another_o reason_n give_v for_o it_o which_o here_o be_v not_o mention_v and_o the_o latter_a which_o be_v here_o mention_v as_o the_o reason_n of_o the_o former_a be_v not_o so_o mention_v by_o we_o but_o for_o another_o end_n and_o purpose_n touch_v the_o former_a of_o these_o two_o when_o we_o say_v that_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n do_v not_o impose_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n as_o ecclesiastical_a elder_n the_o reason_n we_o give_v for_o this_o say_n be_v this_o because_o that_o charge_n be_v only_o belong_v to_o aaron_n

and_o his_o son_n and_o those_o levite_n now_o ordain_v which_o reason_n mr._n rutherford_n never_o mention_n but_o mention_n another_o speech_n as_o our_o reason_n which_o be_v deliver_v by_o we_o for_o another_o purpose_n the_o like_a measure_n do_v he_o afford_v to_o we_o in_o the_o second_o branch_n of_o the_o sentence_n by_o he_o express_v for_o whereas_o we_o give_v two_o reason_n of_o the_o main_a thing_n in_o question_n that_o this_o example_n of_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n impose_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n do_v prove_v that_o in_o some_o case_n non-officer_n may_v impose_v hand_n upon_o church_n officer_n the_o one_o because_o what_o these_o child_n of_o israel_n do_v they_o do_v it_o not_o as_o elder_n the_o other_o that_o what_o they_o do_v they_o do_v it_o not_o for_o themselves_o alone_o but_o for_o all_o the_o congregation_n mr._n rutherford_n apply_v not_o these_o two_o reason_n to_o the_o thing_n in_o question_n as_o they_o be_v apply_v by_o we_o but_o instead_o thereof_o make_v one_o of_o they_o to_o be_v a_o reason_n of_o the_o other_o which_o be_v no_o part_n of_o our_o meaning_n nor_o can_v just_o be_v gather_v from_o our_o word_n this_o be_v say_v for_o clear_v this_o passage_n of_o we_o from_o his_o manifold_a mistake_n let_v we_o now_o hear_v his_o answer_n pag._n 49●_n these_o who_o lay_v on_o hand_n do_v it_o as_o a_o work_n peculiar_a to_o the_o elder_n because_o the_o elder_n be_v a_o part_n of_o the_o first_o bear_v who_o by_o office_n be_v elder_n and_o in_o who_o stead_n the_o levite_n be_v assume_v numb_a 3._o 40_o 41._o answ_n if_o the_o elder_n be_v but_o a_o part_n of_o the_o first_o bear_v then_o how_o can_v all_o the_o first_o bear_v be_v elder_n by_o office_n or_o if_o all_o the_o first_o bear_v be_v by_o office_n elder_n then_o how_o can_v the_o elder_n be_v but_o a_o part_n of_o the_o first_o bear_v these_o thing_n seem_v not_o to_o be_v here_o but_o be_v it_o so_o that_o the_o elder_n be_v a_o part_n of_o the_o first_o bear_v as_o here_o be_v affirm_v how_o do_v this_o prove_v that_o they_o who_o lay_v on_o hand_n do_v it_o as_o a_o work_n peculiar_a to_o the_o elder_n be_v there_o any_o necessary_a or_o clear_a consequence_n in_o such_o a_o proposition_n for_o my_o part_n i_o see_v it_o not_o but_o on_o the_o contrary_a i_o suppose_v it_o be_v certain_a that_o the_o elder_n may_v be_v part_n or_o all_o of_o the_o first_o bear_v and_o yet_o they_o who_o do_v the_o work_n of_o impose_v hand_n may_v neither_o impose_v as_o elder_n nor_o of_o necessity_n be_v elder_n though_o in_o the_o sense_n express_v in_o the_o answer_n i_o will_v not_o deny_v but_o there_o may_v be_v elder_n that_o be_v chief_a and_o principal_a member_n of_o the_o congregation_n but_o if_o this_o be_v grant_v in_o the_o sense_n express_v must_v it_o need_v follow_v that_o they_o impose_v hand_n as_o elder_n and_o as_o elder_n by_o office_n too_o can_v a_o man_n sustain_v no_o relation_n but_o all_o his_o action_n must_v be_v action_n of_o that_o relation_n can_v a_o man_n be_v a_o husband_n or_o a_o parent_n etc._n etc._n but_o his_o action_n of_o plough_v sow_v etc._n etc._n must_v needs_o be_v perform_v by_o he_o as_o he_o be_v a_o husband_n or_o parent_n can_v a_o minister_n pray_v in_o his_o family_n instruct_v his_o child_n or_o receive_v the_o bread_n and_o wine_n in_o the_o lord_n supper_n in_o the_o congregation_n but_o all_o these_o thing_n must_v be_v perform_v by_o he_o as_o a_o minister_n i_o suppose_v that_o none_o will_v say_v that_o this_o do_v follow_v and_o if_o not_o then_o suppose_v that_o these_o who_o impose_v hand_n be_v elder_n how_o do_v it_o follow_v that_o when_o they_o impose_v hand_n they_o do_v impose_v as_o elder_n else_o the_o church_n of_o israel_n be_v a_o constitute_v church_n before_o this_o time_n want_v officer_n which_o be_v against_o all_o truth_n answ_n else_o else_o what_o let_v the_o antecedent_n or_o ground_n of_o this_o inference_n be_v take_v from_o the_o word_n precede_v or_o from_o any_o of_o they_o and_o whence_o else_o to_o take_v it_o i_o can_v tell_v and_o no_o necessity_n of_o consequence_n i_o think_v will_v appear_v the_o word_n precede_v be_v no_o more_o but_o these_o these_o who_o lay_v on_o hand_n do_v it_o as_o a_o work_n peculiar_a to_o the_o elder_n because_o the_o elder_n be_v a_o part_n of_o the_o first_o bear_v who_o by_o office_n be_v elder_n and_o in_o who_o steed_n the_o levite_n be_v assume_v and_o then_o come_v in_o this_o inference_n else_o the_o church_n of_o israel_n want_v officer_n now_o how_o this_o must_v needs_o follow_v upon_o any_o or_o all_o of_o those_o precede_a i_o see_v not_o not_o that_o i_o deny_v the_o truth_n of_o all_o those_o precede_a word_n for_o of_o some_o of_o they_o i_o think_v otherwise_o but_o suppose_v that_o be_v all_o true_a which_o be_v more_o than_o do_v yet_o appear_v yet_o here_o be_v that_o which_o i_o be_o doubtful_a in_o whether_o this_o inference_n must_v needs_o follow_v upon_o the_o same_o for_o aught_o i_o see_v the_o church_n of_o israel_n may_v have_v officer_n and_o yet_o the_o particular_n here_o mention_v not_o be_v all_o true_a but_o some_o of_o they_o false_a notwithstanding_o at_o least_o wise_a if_o they_o be_v true_a yet_o the_o reason_n here_o use_v will_v not_o infer_v so_o much_o for_o to_o consider_v a_o little_a of_o the_o particular_n the_o church_n of_o israel_n have_v officer_n ergo_fw-la the_o elder_n be_v a_o part_n of_o the_o first_o bear_v which_o be_v one_o of_o the_o particular_n the_o church_n of_o israel_n have_v officer_n ergo_fw-la the_o first_o bear_v be_v elder_n by_o office_n which_o be_v another_o the_o church_n of_o israel_n have_v officer_n ergo_fw-la the_o levite_n be_v assume_v instead_o of_o the_o first_o bear_v which_o be_v another_o of_o they_o be_v there_o any_o necessity_n of_o consequence_n in_o any_o of_o these_o for_o my_o part_n i_o see_v it_o not_o but_o suppose_v they_o be_v in_o themselves_o true_a yet_o the_o medium_n here_o use_v do_v not_o prove_v they_o so_o to_o be_v and_o for_o that_o which_o be_v the_o first_o and_o as_o i_o conceive_v the_o chief_n to_o wit_n that_o these_o who_o impose_v hand_n do_v it_o as_o a_o work_n peculiar_a to_o elder_n must_v this_o need_v be_v grant_v if_o it_o be_v grant_v that_o the_o church_n of_o israel_n be_v not_o without_o officer_n i_o see_v no_o necessity_n of_o grant_v this_o neither_o but_o the_o contrary_a to_o i_o seem_v possible_a enough_o that_o thou_o may_v be_v officer_n afore_o this_o time_n in_o that_o church_n and_o yet_o what_o be_v now_o do_v by_o they_o who_o impose_v hand_n not_o be_v do_v by_o they_o as_o elder_n by_o office_n but_o as_o prime_n and_o principal_a member_n of_o the_o congregation_n for_o the_o clear_n whereof_o a_o little_a further_o we_o may_v observe_v that_o they_o who_o impose_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n be_v not_o here_o call_v elder_n nor_o ruler_n nor_o officer_n nor_o first_o bear_v nor_o any_o such_o like_a but_o the_o term_n whereby_o they_o be_v express_v be_v this_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n the_o child_n of_o israel_n say_v the_o lord_n shall_v put_v their_o hand_n upon_o the_o levite_n numb_a 8._o 10._o now_o this_o term_n be_v use_v in_o the_o 9_o verse_n immediate_o precede_v and_o in_o the_o 11._o vers_fw-la immediate_o follow_v yet_o in_o neither_o of_o both_o can_v it_o be_v mean_v of_o elder_n and_o officer_n alone_o but_o in_o both_o verse_n be_v undoubted_o mean_v of_o all_o the_o body_n of_o the_o congregation_n and_o therefore_o if_o the_o context_n and_o circumstance_n of_o the_o place_n be_v regard_v these_o child_n of_o israel_n who_o impose_v hand_n on_o the_o levite_n v_o 10._o can_v in_o that_o act_n be_v consider_v under_o the_o not●on_n of_o officer_n sure_o it_o be_v when_o the_o verse_n before_o tell_v we_o that_o the_o whole_a assembly_n of_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n must_v be_v gather_v together_o and_o the_o verse_n follow_v tell_v we_o that_o aaron_n must_v offer_v the_o levite_n for_o a_o offering_n of_o the_o child_n of_o israel_n in_o neither_o of_o these_o can_v the_o child_n of_o israel_n be_v understand_v of_o the_o officer_n alone_o but_o the_o whole_a congregation_n be_v mean_v hereby_o in_o both_o verse_n reason_n therefore_o require_v that_o this_o ten_o verse_n stand_v in_o the_o midst_n between_o the_o other_o two_o the_o word_n child_n of_o israel_n be_v use_v therein_o shall_v be_v take_v in_o the_o same_o sense_n in_o this_o verse_n in_o which_o it_o be_v take_v in_o the_o verse_n before_o and_o in_o the_o verse_n that_o come_v after_o nay_o and_o further_o he_o that_o shall_v

make_v good_a what_o our_o brethren_n say_v that_o therefore_o they_o may_v judge_v of_o a_o minister_n fitness_n answ_n that_o which_o we_o say_v in_o this_o answ_n pag._n 51._o there_o must_v be_v some_o ability_n to_o discern_v whether_o man_n be_v qualify_v according_a to_o the_o rule_n afore_o they_o ought_v to_o be_v elect_v and_o choose_v into_o office_n and_o the_o people_n of_o god_n have_v so_o much_o ability_n as_o be_v of_o necessity_n require_v afore_o there_o be_v precede_v unto_o ordination_n wherein_o it_o be_v plain_a that_o our_o argue_v be_v from_o the_o people_n ability_n to_o discern_v of_o man_n fitness_n afore_o they_o be_v elect_v to_o their_o like_a ability_n to_o discern_v of_o their_o fitness_n afore_o they_o be_v ordain_v they_o who_o have_v so_o much_o as_o to_o discern_v who_o be_v fit_a to_o be_v ordain_v but_o the_o people_n of_o god_n may_v have_v the_o former_a ergo_fw-la they_o may_v have_v the_o latter_a now_o what_o say_v mr._n rutherford_n hereunto_o the_o assumption_n he_o deny_v not_o but_o in_o plain_a word_n grant_v it_o say_v they_o may_v as_o christ_n sheep_n joh._n 10._o discern_v christ_n voice_n and_o so_o have_v a_o power_n of_o election_n of_o their_o own_o pastor_n it_o must_v then_o be_v the_o consequence_n that_o must_v be_v deny_v or_o the_o conclusion_n must_v be_v yield_v what_o then_o bring_v he_o to_o overthrow_v the_o consequence_n nothing_o but_o this_o that_o there_o be_v a_o two_o fold_v knowledge_n one_o of_o christian_n not_o deny_v to_o woman_n and_o believe_a child_n who_o can_v lay_v on_o hand_n nor_o ordain_v mi●isters_n as_o the_o presbytery_n do_v but_o what_o the_o other_o knowledge_n be_v he_o do_v not_o plain_o tell_v except_o any_o thing_n may_v be_v gather_v from_o the_o word_n follow_v where_o he_o say_v but_o for_o try_v of_o minister_n if_o they_o be_v the_o son_n of_o the_o prophet_n apt_a to_o teach_v able_a to_o convince_v the_o subtle_a heretic_n and_o gainsayer_n and_o to_o put_v they_o to_o silence_n there_o must_v be_v in_o a_o constitute_v church_n a_o college_n of_o pastor_n and_o prophet_n to_o try_v the_o prophet_n with_o a_o presbyterial_a cognizance_n answ_n but_o if_o mr._n rutherford_n will_v have_v speak_v to_o the_o point_n he_o shall_v have_v give_v some_o reason_n why_o the_o people_n may_v discern_v a_o man_n fitness_n for_o election_n and_o yet_o not_o discern_v his_o fitness_n for_o ordination_n for_o this_o be_v the_o consequence_n of_o our_o argument_n which_o he_o deny_v but_o in_o all_o that_o be_v here_o say_v about_o a_o two_o fold_v knowledge_n one_o of_o christian_n and_o the_o other_o of_o some_o body_n else_o what_o be_v there_o in_o all_o this_o that_o have_v so_o much_o as_o the_o least_o show_n of_o overthrow_v or_o weaken_v the_o consequence_n su●e_o nothing_o at_o all_o that_o i_o can_v find_v for_o as_o for_o that_o which_o be_v intimate_v that_o christian_n have_v not_o so_o much_o knowledge_n as_o to_o try_v minister_n whether_o they_o be_v apt_a to_o teach_v etc._n etc._n this_o make_v nothing_o to_o the_o point_n in_o hand_n that_o they_o can_v discern_v whether_o a_o man_n be_v fit_a to_o be_v elect_v but_o not_o discern_v whether_o he_o be_v fit_a to_o be_v ordain_v but_o if_o it_o have_v any_o strength_n in_o it_o at_o all_o it_o be_v as_o much_o against_o the_o ability_n of_o the_o people_n which_o he_o express_o grant_v as_o against_o that_o which_o he_o will_v deny_v as_o much_o against_o their_o ability_n of_o discern_v his_o fitness_n for_o ordination_n and_o therefore_o how_o this_o shall_v overthrow_v the_o one_o and_o not_o the_o other_o i_o do_v not_o know_v for_o to_o any_o man_n understanding_n it_o make_v no_o more_o against_o the_o one_o then_o against_o the_o other_o but_o either_o against_o both_o which_o he_o will_v not_o grant_v or_o else_o against_o neither_o which_o i_o conceive_v be_v the_o very_a truth_n to_o argue_v in_o this_o sort_n they_o have_v not_o ability_n to_o convince_v 〈◊〉_d heretic_n ergo_fw-la they_o may_v not_o choose_v their_o minister_n this_o mr._n rutherford_n will_v not_o own_o for_o he_o plain_o grant_v they_o may_v choose_v and_o therefore_o how_o can_v this_o argue_v be_v good_a they_o want_v ability_n to_o convince_v heretic_n ergo_fw-la they_o may_v not_o impose_v hand_n in_o ordination_n how_o the_o one_o kind_n of_o reason_v can_v be_v better_o than_o the_o other_o i_o do_v not_o know_v except_o we_o will_v say_v some_o may_v be_v lawful_o elect_v and_o choose_v to_o the_o ministry_n who_o can_v lawful_o be_v ordain_v but_o this_o i_o suppose_v can_v be_v say_v with_o truth_n chap._n xxvi_o whether_o the_o epistle_n to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n wherein_o there_o be_v contain_v rule_n of_o direction_n in_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n do_v prove_v that_o the_o action_n may_v not_o in_o any_o case_n be_v perform_v by_o non-officer_n but_o must_v be_v perform_v only_o by_o presbyter_n and_o whether_o the_o argument_n do_v not_o make_v as_o strong_o for_o the_o appropriate_a of_o lay_v on_o of_o hand_n to_o the_o prelate_n as_o to_o the_o presbyter_n and_o do_v not_o as_o well_o exclude_v the_o presbyter_n from_o meddle_v therein_o as_o exclude_v the_o people_n there_o be_v only_o one_o place_n more_o where_o i_o find_v mr._n rutherford_n except_v against_o the_o answer_n and_o that_o be_v in_o his_o pag._n 497._o where_o allege_v the_o answer_n pag._n 59_o which_o i_o conceive_v be_v misprint_v for_o pag._n 49._o he_o set_v down_o these_o word_n as_o we_o viz._n if_o people_n may_v not_o meddle_v with_o ordination_n because_o it_o be_v proper_a to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n this_o may_v prove_v that_o they_o be_v bishop_n who_o do_v ordain_v elder_n there_o alone_o which_o minister_n may_v not_o do_v there_o for_o these_o epistle_n be_v not_o write_v to_o they_o as_o bishop_n alone_o nor_o as_o elder_n alone_o but_o as_o to_o a_o mix_a state_n include_v the_o people_n answ_n the_o order_n of_o the_o dispute_n be_v this_o reverend_a mr._n herle_n argue_v for_o ordination_n of_o officer_n by_o a_o consociate_v eldership_n and_o not_o by_o a_o single_a congregation_n with_o or_o without_o a_o pastor_n bring_v this_o reason_n for_o his_o judgement_n viz._n rule_n of_o direction_n how_o to_o proceed_v in_o ordination_n and_o the_o epistle_n where_o those_o rule_n be_v lay_v down_o be_v not_o write_v to_o the_o church_n or_o congregation_n but_o to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n in_o answer_v whereunto_o we_o speak_v to_o this_o purpose_n that_o if_o this_o be_v a_o sufficient_a reason_n to_o prove_v that_o the_o people_n may_v not_o in_o any_o case_n meddle_v with_o ordination_n then_o by_o as_o good_a reason_n it_o will_v follow_v that_o ordination_n belong_v not_o to_o the_o presbytery_n or_o synod_n but_o only_o to_o one_o man_n as_o the_o prelate_n will_v have_v it_o the_o reason_n we_o give_v be_v because_o timothy_n and_o titus_n be_v each_o of_o they_o but_o only_o one_o man_n and_o we_o there_o further_o say_v that_o we_o do_v approve_v the_o answer_n give_v to_o this_o kind_n of_o reason_v by_o the_o refuter_fw-la of_o dr._n down●●s_n sermon_n at_o l●●beth_n who_o show_v that_o what_o be_v write_v in_o those_o epistle_n be_v not_o only_o write_v for_o timothy_n and_o titus_n but_o for_o other_o minister_n also_o and_o also_o in_o some_o sort_n for_o all_o the_o saint_n and_o that_o therefore_o there_o be_v no_o more_o reason_n to_o appropriate_v those_o rule_n only_o to_o the_o use_n of_o presbytery_n and_o synod_n then_o only_o to_o the_o use_n of_o prelate_n now_o what_o say_v mr._n rutherford_n to_o this_o some_o parcel_n of_o these_o 〈◊〉_d be_v write_v say_v he_o to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n as_o evangeli●ts_n something_o be_v be_v write_v to_o they_o as_o christian_n and_o finaditer_n &_o objective_n all_o be_v write_v for_o the_o church_n good_a but_o the_o bulk_n of_o the_o epistle_n be_v write_v to_o they_o as_o elder_n and_o especial_o 1_o tim._n 5._o 22._o 2_o tim._n 2._o 2._o for_o these_o and_o the_o like_a they_o be_v to_o do_v with_o the_o presbytery_n as_o be_v clear_a 1_o tim._n 4._o 14._o answ_n this_o scripture_n 1_o tim._n 4._o do_v show_v that_o timothy_n have_v a_o gift_n give_v he_o by_o prophecy_n with_o the_o lay_n on_o the_o hand_n of_o the_o presbytery_n but_o how_o do_v it_o hence_o appear_v that_o not_o only_a timothy_n but_o titus_n also_o be_v to_o dothing_n with_o the_o presbytery_n titus_n be_v not_o at_o all_o mention_v in_o that_o scripture_n and_o as_o for_o timothy_n scripture_n tell_v what_o the_o presbytery_n do_v to_o he_o but_o what_o he_o must_v do_v with_o the_o presbytery_n it_o tell_v we_o nothing_o at_o all_o again_o if_o the_o bulk_n of_o the_o epistle_n be_v write_v to_o they_o as_o elder_n and_o the_o church_n be_v no_o otherwise_o concern_v therein_o but_o only_o finaliter_fw-la and_o objective_o the_o epistle_n be_v write_v for_o their_o good_a then_o what_o shall_v be_v the_o meaning_n and_o reason_n of_o these_o word_n in_o the_o conclusion_n of_o the_o epistle_n to_o titus_n and_o of_o the_o latter_a to_o timothy_n where_o it_o be_v say_v grace_n be_v with_o you_o and_o grace_n be_v with_o you_o all_o do_v it_o not_o plain_o appear_v hereby_o that_o more_o than_o elder_n even_o all_o the_o saint_n in_o those_o place_n be_v write_v unto_o in_o those_o epistle_n three_o if_o there_o be_v rule_n in_o the_o epistle_n that_o do_v belong_v to_o elder_n alone_o yet_o since_o it_o be_v confess_v and_o may_v not_o be_v deny_v that_o other_o thing_n therein_o do_v concern_v all_o christian_n how_o shall_v we_o be_v assure_v that_o such_o passage_n as_o concern_v ●aying_v on_o of_o hand_n be_v of_o the_o former_a sort_n and_o not_o of_o the_o latter_a for_o to_o say_v it_o be_v so_o and_o it_o be_v clear_a we_o think_v do_v not_o clear_v it_o at_o all_o unless_o some_o further_a proof_n be_v add_v last_o if_o all_o this_o be_v grant_v which_o here_o be_v say_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n yet_o for_o aught_o i_o see_v our_o answer_n be_v not_o remove_v thereby_o but_o still_o stand_v fair_a and_o good_a for_o in_o that_o place_n of_o the_o answer_n allege_v we_o say_v two_o thing_n 1._o that_o these_o rule_n about_o ordination_n in_o timothy_n and_o titus_n may_v with_o as_o fair_a a_o colour_n be_v appropriate_v to_o one_o man_n as_o to_z presbytery_n and_o synod_n 2._o that_o the_o epistle_n and_o the_o rule_v therein_o be_v not_o to_o be_v appropriate_v to_o bishop_n alone_o or_o minister_n alone_o but_o be_v indeed_o of_o general_a concernment_n for_o all_o the_o christian_n now_o neither_o of_o these_o two_o be_v discover_v by_o mr._n rutherford_n for_o as_o for_o the_o former_a of_o they_o he_o say_v nothing_o thereto_o at_o all_o and_o the_o latter_a he_o do_v in_o a_o manner_n grant_v not_o only_o by_o say_v that_o all_o here_o be_v write_v for_o the_o church_n good_a but_o also_o by_o say_v that_o something_n be_v write_v to_o timothy_n and_o titus_n as_o christian_n which_o be_v in_o effect_n the_o same_o that_o we_o have_v say_v before_o and_o how_o our_o answer_n can_v be_v disprove_v or_o satisfy_v either_o by_o say_v nothing_o at_o all_o thereto_o or_o by_o say_v the_o same_o that_o we_o have_v say_v before_o i_o leave_v it_o to_o the_o judicious_a reader_n to_o consider_v finis_fw-la