Rome notwithstanding he professe him selfe an open enemie to the Queene Phi. You still presse vs with that which we neuer ment Theo. You stil defend your selues there where we doe not strike This is the very drift and scope of all your examples as your owne wordes witnes And sor vs of the schoole and Clergie whither should we rather flee than to him Now that he hath openly shewed himselfe an enemie to her Highnes in accursing her Person in remouing her Crowne in forbidding her subiects to obey her in ayding rebelles against her and assaulting her land with force you can not so much as doubt woulde you neuer so faine the facts are so notorious and fresh in the memories of all men Phi. We noted this in you that where the Britanes and Saxons receiued preachers from Rome with honour and thankes you persecute them with all kinde of torments Theo. Your attempt is as contrary to theirs as your reward is diuers from theirs They came with religion to God and submission to Princes you come with neyther Phi. I woulde you knewe it wee come with both And you may bee ashamed to charge vs with two such haynous crimes prouing neyther Theo. Haue patience till wee come to the place where both shall bee discussed and see whether that which is nowe saide shall then be proued or no but in the meane time goe forwarde with the rest of your examples Phi. Wee flee to him of whose predecessors all the famous fathers called for aide comfort and counsel in their like distresses as Cyprian of Cornelius and Stephanus Athanasius of Iulius Chrysostome and Augustine of Innocentius Basil of Liberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie Hierom and Miletius of Damasus Theodoret of Leo the great and all the rest of other holy Popes Theo. This is no reasoning but rouing You florish with a few general and doubtful termes neither opening the causes nor expressing the circumstances They called you say For ayde comfort and counsell What ayde such as the Bishops of Rome might and did yeeld in those dayes without chalenging any supremacie That is nothing to your purpose neither will that warrant your gadding to Rome Such as none could giue but they that were rulers heads of the whole Church That were somewhat if it could bee proued but your examples cōtaine no such thing Uiew the particulars Cyprian in his epistles to Cornelius Stephanus neuer calleth them otherwise than brethren and collegues and in matters concerning the regiment of the Church as well giueth as taketh both counsell and comfort But can you shewe that Cyprian euer allowed any man to runne to Rome for helpe against the iudgements and acts of other Bishops if you can not as wee bee right sure you be not able then can we shew you where Cyprian misliketh and plainely reproueth this posting of yours to Rome writing to Cornelius Hee saith that certaine persons condemned in Africa by the Bishops there Romam cum mendaciorum suorum merce nauigauerunt sailed to Rome with their fraight of lies adding farther And now what is the cause of their comming for either they like that they did and so perseuere in their wickednes or if they mislike relent they know whither they may returne For where it is a thing prescribed to vs al and besides that equal and right that euery mans cause be there heard where the crime was committed and euery Pastor hath his portion of the flocke assigned him which he must gouerne and rule as one that shall giue an accompt of his doings to God Oportet vtique eos quibus praesumus non circūcursare Those that be vnder vs must not runne thus about to Rome but there plead their cause where they may finde both accusers and witnesses vnlesse perhaps a few desperat and loose companions take the authoritie of the Bishops of Africa to be lesse than at Rome The like hee sayth of one Basilides that being depriued of his Bishopricke procured letters from Rome for his restitution Neither can this infringe the ordering of the next Bishop lawfully finished that Basilides running to Rome deceiued Stephanus our collegue by reason he is farre off not acquainted with the truth of the case getting himselfe to be restored vniustly to the Bishopricke from the which he was iustly deposed If Cyprian did not like that Cornelius should medle with matters concluded in Africa neither esteemed the restitution of Basilides made by Stephanus but reiected it as voyde and vniust what other ayde thinke you would he call for at their hands but onely such mutual concorde as should profite the Church and well beseeme the seruantes of Christ Phi. If Cyprian woulde not Athanasius did who being Patriarke of Alexandria fled twise to Rome for succour in his owne person and was there not onely receiued and harboured but also restored to his former dignitie of Iulius notwithstanding the Councels of Tyrus and Antioche had decreed the contrarie and Constantius the Emperour consented thereto Theo. The troubles of Athanasius gaue Iulius good cause both to claime and vse the vttermost of his authoritie The wrong offered Athanasius was so shamefull the madnes of Arians subuerting the faith and oppressing the Church so manifest the rage of Constantius assisting their heresie with all his might so cruell that if euer the Bishop of Rome woulde stirre this time must needes force him to doe his best Phi. And so he did I warrant you Theo. What did hee Phi. You knowe well inough hee summoned the Arians to appeare before him examined their proceedings reuersed the sentence giuen against Athanasius and placed him in his Bishopricke in spite of his aduersaries Theo. Can you proue that Iulius did al this alone without the help of others or that he did any part of this as head of the Church Uicar general to Christ Phi. What cauils you inuent when you be vrged with any thing Theo. What broken reedes you leane too and thinke them strong pillers It is well knowen the Bishop of Rome was not onely Patriarke of the West parts but of the foure Patriarkes also which were the chiefest Bishops of Christendome in order and accompt the first By reason whereof no Councell could be generall vnlesse hee were called no matters concerning the whole Church or principall Patriarks could be handled vnlesse he were present or priuie to the same Which prerogatiue was giuen him by consent of men not by graunt from Christ in respect of the Citie that was the Seate of the Empire then ruling the worlde not in token of any supremacie descending from Peter Thus much we graunt without any proofe of yours more than this if you would sweate out your heartes you shall neuer proue by these nor any other examples of the primitiue Church Phi. Then by your owne confession hee was the chiefest and highest Bishoppe in the worlde Theo. He was before the rest in honour and
Who rightly considering these attempts will not lament them detest them as the foresignes prognosticatioÌ„s of the ruine of the church And when the composition was made between the Emperor the Suldane that Hierusalem with certaine places neere bordering should be restored to the christians truce remaine for ten yeares the Emperor by letters aduertised the Pope the rest of christendom of this ioyfull newes The Pope cast away the letters would not receiue them with his fautors as men affirmed made a rumor to be spred in Apulia that the emperor was dead Wherupon the cities that yet stood for the emperour inclined to render themselues into the popes hands to kil the Almanes that returned from the holy land or were commorant in Apulia a most barbarous and wicked purpose And lest there should want any thing to the vttermost of al wickednes when Frederik after his arriuing in the holy land sent messengers to Rome to require absolution reconciliation because he had now perfourmed his promise the Pope repelled his petition inioyned the soldiers in Asia to withdraw their help froÌ„ Frederik as froÌ„ a publike enimie It was not enough to fil the Princes hands with ciuill warres when he should prepare against the Turk to stop and spoile his souldiers that should accompanie him to inuade his lande sollicite his townes in his absence your holy father must set the Christians when they should fight against the Turke togither by the eares wil them not only to forsake but also to impugne their Emperor What could the diuel himselfe haue done more if he had bin couched in the Popes chaire than Gregorie did Phi. These things Gregorie himselfe denied the Italians that since haue written reiect them as false Theo. So had they need For if they should confesse them they must yeeld the Pope in so doing to be rather the foreman of Satan than the Uicar of Christ. And therefore your Italian Stories presuming all that the Pope saide in defence of himselfe to bee true and all that hee claymed from the Empire to bee his raile on Frederike in great choler as on a wicked and faithlesse Prince and acquite the Pope as doing his dutie in all these counterplots But Italian wittes are too well knowen to be trusted when they are offended and in Blondus a man may soone perceiue an intemperate heate against those Princes that withstoode the Pope Phi. You dislike our stories and we dislike yours Theo. May you dislike your owne and such as then liued and honoured the See of Rome hauing no iust exception against them but only that they could not apparel the Popes pride with some smoth deuises as the Italians do Phi. Not long since you praised Blondus haue you now cast him out of conceite Theo. I did commend Blondus for his diligence where affection did not interpeale him But in this case drawing all thinges to his appetite the more diligeÌ„t the more daÌ„gerous He not only taketh euery word that Gregory spake for a Gospel but addeth of his own head such things as Gregory neuer obiected to Frederike that with no small spite For where Frederik complained to the Princes of Almanie how iniuriouslie and deceitfully the Pope had dealt with him amongest other thinges whiles hee was in the seruice of Christ against the Turke how the Pope had surprised a part of his kingdom with armes Gegory in his letters replied that because Raynold Frederiks captaine inuaded the kingdome of Scicily the speciall patrimonie of the church least the See Apostolike should thereby be impugned his Legates entred Frederiks kingdom found many ready to submit themselues This is all that Gregory pretended who woulde not spare to speake any thing that with any colour he might in his owne excuse and against Frederike Blondus finding this to be but a simple cause for the Pope to inuade the Emperors dominion in his absence in that seruice first for so much as the right of Scicily was in strife between the Empire the church of Rome secondly for that if Scicily were held in fee of the church of Rome yet Frederike was right heire vnto it by the mother side in ful possessioÌ„ of that kingdom before he was made Emperor therfore wel Raynold his captaine might put ouer souldiers into Scicily to man the forts for al occasions to containe them in their duties whatsoeuer should happeÌ„ to his master in that voiage against the Turk But other inuasâ—oÌ„ preiudicial to the church of Rome the princes captaine neither needed nor coulde make any Bondus I say perceiuing that Gregories pretence woulde seeme but a quarel sought of purpose to make a rebellion against the Emperour whiles he was from home helpeth the matter with certaine additions which are both odious and slaunderous Frederik saith he ready to take ship saile froÌ„ Italie was so far froÌ„ asking the Popes absolution benediction that making one Rainold the gouernor of the kingdome of Scicilie in plaine words willed him to oppresse the Pope and Clergie by all meanes Blondus might haue doone well to tell vs who stoode by and heard these wordes which Gregorie would neuer haue omitted if he had knowen them And if the Pope that sifted his words and deedes with all diligence knew no such thing how shoulde Blondus so many yeres after come by the knowledge of them The other obiection that he despised the Popes absolution is as foolish For as soone as he was landed on the other side and began to march towardes the Turke Platina confesseth that he was very earnest both by letters and messengers to be absolued by the Pope from his excommunication and could not obtaine it To haue delt therefore with the Pope before his going to be absolued had beene in vaine the Pope doubting that he would not goe and refusing as your selues confesse to absolue him when he was there arriued and encamped against the Turke Phi. The Pope would not absolue him because he went about to make peace with the Turke The. The Pope would euer haue some cause to molest him otherwise I see no reason to mislike the peace For whether the Turke stood in feare of him or was to be distracted emploied about other wars I know not the Emperor had not bin there a yere but the Turke was glad to yeeld him the kingdome of IerusaleÌ„ sauing the Temple a few Castles to hold peace with him and Christendom for ten yeres Which conclusion as it was honorable in it selfe so was it acceptable to all Christian states saue only to the Pope mary he of meere malice against Frederike when the letters were brought that should aduertise him of the Emperours good successe threw them away and shewed him-selfe much agreeued with the matter as one that did abode the Princes speedie returne would disappoint him of his hope And he missed not his
Athanasius writing Theo. By this let the world iudge both of your cause and cunning A thing bone by the confession of your owne stories aboue 760. yeares after Christ vnder Constantine the 5. not long before the seconde Nicene councell is coloured with Athanasius name as written by him that was deade 400. yeares before the matter happened and not onely published with his writinges but inserted into the second Nicene councell as his worke whereas the Bishops then assembled were all aliue when this outrage was attempted by the Iewes not 24. yeares before the calling of that Synode Such fables and forgeries doe well become the quarell you haue in hand but they wil neuer proue your hauing of images to be catholike or Apostolike Phi. In deede our stories doe mention such an accident at the time which you name but if it be true though it be not so old as Athanasius we care not Theo. He that wil forge must not stick to ly lying is the very ground of forging and of a lyar we looke for no truth And yet this tale of Nicodemus Gamaliel Iames Simeon and Zacheus deliuering an image from hand to hand is not the assâ—rtioÌ„ of the author but the rude report of a poore ignorant man fathering his image on them that neuer were christians as Gamaliel was not and that 700. yeares after their deathes without any proofe saue onely by hearesay By such legends you may soone proue what you will but he that hath any spark of christian courage or wisedom will vtterly abhor these lies as feeling the grosnesse of them with his fingers Phi. Since you so much dislike our proofes that the Apostles and the Primatiue church had images can you proue they had none Theo. Doth your discretion serue you to put vs to proue the negatiue Ph. You affirm they had none our demaund is how you know that Theo. You can not proue they had and that is cause sufficient for vs to auouch they had not Phi. Is that all you can say Theo. If it were you can not voide it but we haue euident proofes that the church of Christ succeeding the Apostles had none and thence we conclude the Apostles deliuered none otherwise the church would not so soone haue reiected the tradition of the Apostles Phi. You may be sure they would not Theo. And since they did reiect Images ergo it was no Apostolike tradition Phil. Howe proue you they did reiect them Theo. The christians were charged by the Pagans for hauing no images and they not onely confessed so much but also defended it as most agreeable with the law of God In Arnobius the heathen say of the christians Cur nullas aras habent nulla tenepla nulla nota simulachra why haue they no altars no temples no open or knowen images In Origen Celsus sayth Hij non patiuntur vel templa vel aras vel simâ—lachra statuas intueri The christians can not abide to beholde temples or altars or images In making their answere the Christians agnised they had none and alleadged the law of God to proue they should haue none ClemeÌ„s sayth Nobis non est imago sensilis de materia sensili sed quae percipitur intelligentia We haue no image that is materiall and seene with eyes but onely such as is conceiued with vnderstanding And addeth this reason We are plainely forbidden to vse that deceitfull art of making images Thou shalt not make saith the Prophet the likenesse of any thing The Christians and Iewes saith Origen when they heare the lawe of God thou shalt not make to thy selâ—e any grauen image nor the likenesse of any thing neither shalt thou bowe downe to them nor serue them not only refuse these teÌ„ples Altars images of God but if neede be choose rather to dy And extending this as well to the image of the true God as of those that were no gods he sayth Nec simulachra quidem nos veneramur quippe qui Dei vt inuisibilis ita incorporei formam nullam effigiamus We reuerence not images as making no figure to God who is inuisible and without all bodily shape So Arnobius What image shall I make to God whose image if you rightfully iudge man himselfe is And Lactantius as you hearde before affirmed There coulde bee no religion wheresoeuer there was an image Phi. These spake not of the christian images but of the Pagans such as in deede we may neither worship nor haue Theo. They speake namely of themselues which were christians confessing they neither had nor might haue any image of God Phi. Not of the Godhead but of Christ his Saincts they might notwithstanding these words it is euident by Eusebius they had For the woman that was cured by Christ of the bloody issue erected an image of brasse vnto him in Cesaria where she dwelt vnder the feete of which image grewe a strange herbe healing all diseases as soone as it touched the brasen skirt of his garmeÌ„t This image remained togither with the herbe to the time of Eusebius after till Iulian the Apostata in spite of Christ brake it in peeces set vppe his own image in place thereof which God strake with fire from heauen in reuenge of his sonne so dishonored by Iulian threw the head of Iulians image from the body pitching it with the face downward into the earth blasting the rest with lightning for a terror to all that euer after should offer the image of his Sonne any reproach or misuse as you may read in Sozomene And this example is a faire warning for you that haue beheaded burned so many images of Christ his Sainctes within this Realme Theo. This image the woman that was healed erected in the citie where she dwelt as a monument of the mighty power which our Sauiour had shewed on her she being then an heathen not instructed in religion thinking thereby to prouoke others to harken after him seek for his help as she had done And when many trusted not her words it pleased God not only to ratify her report as true but to shewe the Gentiles by the wonderfull euent of the herbe there growing what vertue was in his sonne to cure all their griefs thereby to lead them the rather to beleeue in him that they might be saued by him In this wee dispraise not the womans purpose minding to celebrate the benefit which shee receiued at our Sauiours handes the best way that she then knew we honor the goodnes of God in preparing the hearts of vnbeleeuers by meanes of this miracle to bee ready to imbrace his Sonne detesting the wickednes of Iulian that to discouer his contempt of Christ and malice against Christ whose faith he had openly reâ—ounced amongst other villanies which hee offered caused the Pagans in a triumph to draw this image about the streetes breaking it in
resisted the Popes power in whole or in part euer since the conquest This Land subiect to him neither as Christs vicar nor as Patriarke of the west Apol Cap. 4. sect 25. Bishoppes may preach wihout Cesars leaue if they submit themselues to Cesars sword as the Apostles did The Iesuites cunning in playeng with the worde Supreme as they doe What the Iesuits imagine of the word Supreme The wordes of the oth be sound eâ—ough if they cease peruerting them Ruler and Prince be as doubtfull as gouernour if men be disposed to cauill Bishops be called Rulers Princes Kings Queenes Heb. 13. Act. 20. In. 1. Cap. epist. ad Titum Idem in 3. Ca. 1. ad Tim. Lib. 4. Cap. 33. Morali in Iob. In 49. ca. Esaiae Euerie of the faithfull is a King and a Priest Reuelat. 1. 1. Peter 2. Lib. Cap. 37. Idem lib. 4. Cap. 24. Ibidem Princes are Bishops and Priests Euagrie tom epist. 2. Idem Oceano eodem tom Exod. 24. Iosua 24. Iudges 8. Iudâ—th 6. The ground of al their absurdities is the cauilling at 〈◊〉 words The gouernment of Princes Prâ—ests are distinct Gouernours of this realme none is but only the Prince This is the profound Logike of Rhemes A right Frier that will neuer be answered though the Sophisme be neuer so grosse Only Princes beare the sworde within their owne dominions If only Princes beare the sword they beare it in al things as well spiritual as teÌ„porall where the sword is required The sworde must be vsed in spirituall things and causes as wel as temporall Princes caÌ„not be defenders of the faith officers of the Church but by means of the sword 1. Tim. 2. The sword ordeined chiefly to preserue godlinesse and honesty among men The sword of Princes is supreme in that it is not subiect to the Pope must be obeyed of al in things that be good These bee right Iesuiticall conceits The true supremacie of Princes The Papists in euery stile which they giue the Pope make him supreme Caus. 25. quaest 1. § Nulli fas Acclamationes in fine Concil Triden Sess. 25. Supreme gouernour doth not touch Christ so nere as Supreme Bishop doth which is the Popes vsuall stile 1. Pet. 5. 1. Pet. 2. My Kingdom is not of this world Ioh. 18. Who made me Iudge ouer you Luke 12. Princes must be indured whatsoeuer they coÌ„mand but not obeyed agaynst the faith or canoÌ„s of the church In temporall things Princes may not frustrate the lawes of their progenitors nor the liberties of the people Lib. 4. cap. 27. Constit. 131. de Eccle. Canon Al godly princes haue admitted the Canons of the Church Constit. 6. Athanas. ad solitar vitaÌ„ agentes Gregor lib. 9. epist. 41. The Pope obeyed the Princes lawes not against the Canons The Popes name put in steed of the Princes Caus. 7. quaest 1. Scripsit Nouel coÌ„st 83. Item const 6. To be tyed to the saith and canons of the Church doth not diminish their supremacie The Princes sword is not spirituall Ephes. 6. Reuelat. 1. Hebr. 4. The word of god is the spirituall sword The magistrats sword is corporall Mat. 10. Mat. 10. And temporall 2. Cor. 4. How the Papists abuse the word spirituall in extending it to men and matters that they should not They be spirituall which haue the spirit of God 1. Cor. 3. 1. Cor. 2. Gal. 6. Iude epist. 1. Pet. 2. Hieron ad Iulian. tomo epist. 1. Their lands liuings must be spirituall though Saint Paul call theÌ„ carnall 1. Cor. 9. Rom. 15. Mat. 22. Ambros. epist. lib. 5. orat coÌ„tra Auxent The Romish kalender of spirituall things See the tytles of their Decretals Malefactours of al sortes should opeÌ„ly repent before they be receiued to the Sacraments Rom. 13. The goods lands and liuings of Clergie men be Cesars right What things ChristiaÌ„ Princes first committed to Bishops for their learning and integritie the Pope afterward toke theÌ„ vp as his own Bishops the fittest men to deale in these causes but by the Princes power and lawes Bishops by their function may deny the sacraments to such as will not repent but they may not compel or punish any man without commission from the Prince Compulsion correction in all things is the Princes right The sword ordayned chiefly for things spirituall Rom. 7. Ibidem Rom. 13. 1. Pet. 2. Mark 10. Worldly thinges be neither good nor euil for which two causes Princes beare the word The spiritual things which the Pope claimeth are teÌ„porall 1. Cor. 13. 1. Cor. 14. Princes were not ordained to cloaâ—â— the backe feede the belâ—â— â— Tim. 6. Mat. 6. 1. Tim. 2. Godlines and honestie the chiefest causes why Princes were ordained The Prince hath the same charge in the coÌ„monwealth that euerie priuate man hath in his familie Ephes. 6. The parentes charge towardes their children Psalm 34. Deut. 4. Deut. 4. Genes 18. Psalm 101. Dauids charge in his kingdome Religion the Princes chiefest charge Nouel Consti 6. Legum Theod. Nouel tit 2. de Iudaeis Samaritanis Aug. epist. 162. The sifting examining of a Bishop did most pertaine to the princes charge by S. Aug. iudgemeÌ„t Epist. ad LuciuÌ„ inter leges Edward cap. 17. Eleutherius opinion of the Princes charge Inter leges Edward Reg. cap. 17. Pope Iohns opinion of the Princes charge Beda hist. gentis Anglor cap. 32. Gregories coÌ„fession of the Princes charge The king of Englands oth expressing his charge Inter leges Edward cap. 17. de Regis offâ—cio Ibidem The very heathen were of the same opinion Politic. lib. 3. cap. 11. Ibidem cap. 5. In all kingdomes and common-wealthes since the foundation of the earth religion hath been setled defended by the Magistrates sword Their authoritie must stretch as far as their dutie God hath giuen Princes the sword in those thinges which himself commandeth The Priest in no cause may beare the sword The confirming of Rites and Ceremonies needeth the sword The abuse or contempt of excommunication reuenged by the sword The sworde committed to the Prince Rom. 13. His Apostles forbidden the sword Mat. 26. Mat. 20. Bernard de considerat lib. 2. Dominion interdicted the Pope himself Caus. 33. quaest 2. ¶ Inter haec Caâ—s 33. quaest 8. ¶ De Episc. No clergimen may vse the sword no not by the Popes authoritie 2. Cor. 10. Ad solitar vitaÌ„ agentes Ambros. lib. 5. Epist. 33. The seruants of Christ may haue no earthly kingdome since their master had none Iohn 8. Matth. 10. 2. Tim. 2. Distinct. 96. ¶ Cum. ad verum A Bishop may not vsurp an Emperours name much lesse his sword Distinct. 10. ¶ Quoniam ideÌ„ Cyprian writeth to Iulian an 100. yeares before Iulian was borne The Disciples of Christ straitly charged not to medle with Princely swords The sworde hath beene may be and should be vsed for that which is good in al spirituall things and causes The oth cleared Their absurdities returned on their owne heades
dignitie but not ouer the rest in power and authoritie His place was first when the Patriarkes met but his voyce not negatiue he might assemble his prouince and consult with them but not conclude without them himselfe was subiect both to the decrees of Councels and to the lawes of the Christian Emperours euen in causes ecclesiasticall and was oftentimes not only resisted by famous men but ouer-ruled as well by prouinciall as ecumenicall Councels when he attempted any thing against the Canons Which differeth much from the supremacie that he now chalengeth and vsurpeth And therefore you did wel to walke in a mist of ambiguous wordes to couer the lamenesse of your conclusion Phi. Why did Athanasius flee to the Bishoppe of Rome for helpe if Iulius had nought to do with his matter Theo. Athanasius being wrongfully thrust from his Bishopricke and an other forciblie set in his roome by certaine Arians assembled at Antioche vpon this pretence that he was deposed in the Councell of Tirus before he was banished and after his returne presumed of his own head without a Councell to reenter and keepe his place and finding the East Church not able to succour him for that Constantius the Emperour supported his enemies with a strong hand fled to the Bishop of the West where Constans a religious and curteous Prince brother to Constantius raigned and made his complaint as reason was he should first to the Bishop of Rome the cheefest man amongst them and the ringleader of the rest with whom he was ioined in consort and communion as the right and true Patriarke of Alexandria desiring no more but that his case might be heard and the desperate and furious proceedings of his aduersaries against him examined in a iust and lawfull Councell Which petition of Athanasius doth not proue the West Bishops to be controllers and ouerseers of such things as were done in the East much lesse the Bishop of Rome to be supreme Iudge ouer all but rather sheweth that the Church of Christ was guided by the common consent and mutuall agreement of both parts as well East as West indifferently balanced and that the West Bishops might call for a reason of the sentence giuen against Athanasius before they allowed the same or receiued his successour to the felowship of their communion Phi. The ecclesiasticall historie saith otherwise that Athanasius opened his cause to Iulius Bishop of Rome and that hee vpon the prerogatiue of the Romane See wrote threatning letters in his behalfe and restored him to his place reprouing them that rashly deposed him Theo. Socrates as an Historiographer noteth in fewe wordes the chiefe points and chiefe persons but if you will take the paines to reade the particular discourse of these thinges which Athanasius writeth in defence of himselfe you shal find that true which I say Phi. What shall we finde Theo. That the West Bishops were ioyned with Iulius in all this action and nothing done without their Sinodal decree Phi. How proue you that Theo. First the letters of credit which Athanasius brought with him to Rome from the Bishops of his communion in Egypt Thebais Lybia Pentapolis witnessing the manifold wrongs which he suffered and earnestly crauing a dew reformation of the same were written not to Iulius alone but Omnibus vbique ecclesiae catholicae Episcopis to all the Bishops of the Catholique Church wheresoeuer hauing these words in the cōclusion For this cause in a publike assemblie by the consent of vs all wrate wee these letters vnto you praying your wisedomes in Christ to receiue this testimonie touching Athanasius to admit him to your fellowship and communion and to bee moued with a zealous indignation against the Eusebians his enemies the authors of these disorders and that such lewdnes and mischiefe preuaile no longer against the Church vos certe vindices huius iniustitiae imploramus we call for your help to be the reuengers of their vnrighteous dealing Haec quidem Aegyptij ad omnes ad Episcopum Romanum Iulium scripsere this they of Egypt wrate to all and to Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that in sight the complaint was made generally to them all Phi. But Iulius alone cited the contrarie part to appeare before him by a day limited and that argueth his authoritie ouer them that were not of his Prouince Theo. Iulius by the consent of both parts and aduise of all the Bishops of Italie and other places neere him appointed the matter to be heard in a Councell and exhorted the aduersaries of Athanasius to bee present at the time and place prefixed Phi. What a mincing you make of this matter Iulius cited that is Iulius exhorted them to come Iulius heard the cause that is Iulius called a Councell to heare it Theo. What a mountaine you make of a mole hill I repeate the very wordes of Iulius and good reason in his owne fact to beleeue him best Phi. If he say so but I doubt you mistake the words Theo. Then may you take them righter but I am perfect I misse them not Heare first what Athanasius and then after what Iulius writeth Quin Eusebiani ad Iulium literas misere vt nos terrerent Synodum conuocari iusserunt ipsi Iulio si vellet arbitrium causae detulerunt The Eusebians also sent letters to Iulius and the rather to fray vs willed a Synode to be called and Iulius himselfe to be Iudge in the cause if he would Which Socrates doeth not omit Eusebius verò cum quod volebat perfecisset legationem ad Iulium Romanum Episcopum misit obsecrans vt ipse Iudex esset in causa Athanasij ad se litem hanc vocaret Eusebius when he had done all that he woulde sent messengers to Iulius Bishop of Rome praying him to be Iudge in the cause of Athanasius and to call for the hearing of this contention Phi. Athanasius aduersaries seeme to consent that Iulius alone shoulde sit Iudge in this cause Theo. That Iulius as chiefe but not that Iulius alone should examine this quarel For they required to be heard in a common Councell both of East and West Bishops Phi. As yet I see no such thing Theo. Say not so for Athanasius euen now told you that his enemies to fray him in their letter to Iulius willed a Councell to be held for this matter and Iulius in his epistle replying to those that were gathered at Antioch the second tyme writeth thus What is there done worthie of offence or what cause haue I giuen you to whom I wrate to be angrie An quia adhortati vos sumus vt ad Synodum occurreretis Is it for that we exhorted you to meet vs at a Synode The Bishops assēbled in the great Coūcel of Nice not without the wisedom of God gaue leaue that the acts of one Synode myght be discussed in an other to this end that both they which were Iudges knowing a secōd examination of the
self same matter was to folow should with al diligence weigh the cause and those against whom sentence was giuen might cleerely confesse themselues to be condemned not by any faction of the former Iudges but iustly and worthily And if this were an auncient custome and the memorie therof renewed and put in writing by the great Nicene Councell you now will not suffer the same to take place with you trewly you doe an vnseemly thing For no equitie doth alow that a few of you shuld abrogate a custome once receaued in the Church confirmed by so great a Synode yet that being granted you the offence which you take is without al reason for your Legats Macarius and Hesiochus no way able to match those that Athanasius sent but in euery thing conuicted and refuted by them Concilium indici postularunt literasque ad Eusebianos Athanasium Alexandriam quibus conuocarentur mitti vt coram omnibus iusto iudicio de causa cognosci posset tunc enim se de Athanasio probaturos esse quod iam nequirent required a Councell to bee summoned and letters to be sent to the Eusebians and to Athanasius at Alexandria to giue them warning to come that the cause might bee debated before all in an euen and vpright iudgement adding that they would then conuince Athanasius of those things wherin now they failed Yea publikely in our presence Martyrius and Hesichius were confounded Athanasius Priestes readily answering them with great boldnes to say the trueth Martyrius and his side were alwayes put to the worst Ac proinde Concilium generale postulauit And for that cause he requested a generall assemblie of Bishoppes If therefore Martyrius and Hesichius your agents not requiring a Councell I had exhorted you that they which wrote to mee on either side might bee called to a Councell namely in fauour of my brethren which complayned they were oppressed that motion of mine had beene honest and iust for so much as it is acceptable to God agreeable to the Canons but now where those very men whom you counted to be discreete and worthy to be trusted with your message were the first inciters of mee to cal you to a Synode surely you ought not to take that in so ill part By these words these two pointes are more than manifest First that Iulius did not peremptorily commaund them to appeare before him but exhorted them to meete in a lawfull Councell for the better discussing of matters in question Next that for the warning of a Councel which should examine their acts hee pretendeth not his supreme power ouer all the Church nor his Lieutenantship to Christ but groundeth himselfe on their consents which were the chiefe authors of this tragedie and citeth the Nicene Councel agreeing with the auncient vsage of the Church that Synodes might discusse and redresse the wrongs done by Bishoppes Phi. You can not denie but Iulius heard their Legats before the Bishoppes met Theo. I graunt for his better information hee might heare them alone but not to giue iudgement thereof without others so sayth Iulius himselfe Athanasius was neither condemned at Tyrus nor present at Mareota where you proceeded in his absence And you know that the records of those acts bee very suspitious and of no force where one part onely was admitted to proue Yet we though it were so for the more full discussing of the matter did neither preiudice you that wrate against him nor those that wrate for him but exhorted all as many as wrate to present themselues here in iudgement that all thinges might exactly bee skanned in a Synode In the which Synode when the contrary side refused to appeare Athanasius was hearde at large and there receiued to the communion of all the West Church as right Bishoppe of Alexandria notwithstanding his former deposition by the Bishoppes at Antioche and the violent intrusion of an other in his place Phi. This you say but this you proue not Theo. If Athanasius say the same it is proofe sufficient and that you shall heare him say Viton the Priest whom Iulius sent for that purpose brought with him to the councel moe than fiftie Bishops where our defence was admitted and wee counted worthie to bee receiued to their communion and brotherly feast and great indignation kindled against the Eusebians to whome they willed Iulius to write backe in his owne name for that their letters were written to him not to them And so Iulius did putting them to wit which is the thing that you stagger at that although his name were alone to the letters yet the common consent approbation of the Synode wanted not to the matter Notwithstanding saith he that I alone wrate to you yet I wrate the iudgement and opinion not of my selfe onely but of all the Bishops of Italie and of all in these quarters The Bishops met at the time appointed and were of that mynde which I nowe signifie to you againe wherfore though I alone write yet I would haue you knowe that I write the common opinion of them all And his Epistle ended This sayth Athanasius the Synode at Rome wrate by Iulius the Bishop of Rome So that all this while Iulius did nothing of himselfe without a Synode neither did hee or the Synode challenge any superioritie ouer the East Bishops but rather an equalitie with them and for that cause might require to see the reason of their doings against Athanasius before they would reiect him as no Bishop and communicate with Gregorie that was placed in his seate And so much the East Bishops should haue doone without asking For where a prouinciall Synode bindeth no man out of the same Prouince they were by the discipline and custome of the Church to sende their letters to the Bishops of euery Prouince namely to the chiefest and to expect the general consent of their brethren before they proceeded to the deposition of a Bishop and so great Bishoppe as the Patriarke of Alexandria was which is the thing that Iulius vrgeth them with Si vt dicitis omnino in culpa fuerunt oportuit secundum Canonem non isto modo iudicium fieri oportuit scribere omnibus nobis vt ita ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur Episcopi enim erant non vulgares ecclesiae qui ista patiebantur If as you pretend they were guiltie in deede yet iudgement should haue gone forwarde according to the Canon of the Church and not after this strange sort you should haue written to vs all that that which had been iust might haue been determined by all For they were Bishops and no meane Churches that were thus vsed By this you see that in ayding and helping Athanasius the Bishop of Rome did neither by worde nor deed take vpon him to be vicar generall to Christ on earth nor supreme iudge of all men and matters in the Church as nowe he doeth but claymeth rather
a societie with the East Bishops for himself and the rest of his prouince as hauing no lesse interest in the Church than they had Phi. What say you then to the prerogatiue of the Romane See and to that ecclesiastical Canon which forbiddeth to meddle in the Church without the consent of the Romane Bishop Theo. The Bishop of Rome had this prerogatiue that first he should be written vnto by reason of his place which was first but not that he alone should be written vnto So saith Iulius Cur igitur in primis de Alexandria ciuitate nihil nobis scribere voluistis an ignari estis hanc esse consuetudinem vt primùm nobis scribatur vt hinc quod iustum est definiri posset Why then would you write nothing to vs especially touching the citie of Alexandria Are you ignorant of this custome that you shoulde write to vs first that hence that which is iust might bee determined Phi. No better text from Rome must bee determined what is right in the regiment of the Church Theo. A wise catch I promise you Did you not heare Iulius euen now speake the same wordes of euery Bishoppe Vt ab omnibus quod iustum esset decerneretur that euery one might determine what was iust So that Iulius by this had no greater authoritie than the rest for right was to bee determined by them all Phi. The Canon of the Church made euery thing voyde that was done without the Bishop of Rome Theo. That which you call a Canon in deed was an order taken by the Bishops among thēselues for the better guiding of the Church by common consent when as yet there were no Christian Magistrates and the same was afterward liked and allowed of Godly Princes as the best way to keepe the Church in peace from quarrels and factions And this it was In waightie matters no prouinciall Councell might deale without consulting the rest of the Patriarkes who straightway conferring with the Bishoppes of their Prouinces wrate backe the generall opinion of themselues and their brethren This if any Councell did omit the Prouinces rounde about were at libertie to reiect their proceedings if they saw cause This Canon or kind of regiment obserued in the Church Iulius obiecteth against the councel of Antioch Oportuit secundum Canonem iudicium fieri Iudgement should haue proceeded according to the Canon that is Oportuit omnibus nobis scribere vt ab omnibus quod esset iustū decerneretur You should haue written to vs al that that which was iust might haue beene concluded by all And as by the Canon they should haue written to al so first to the Bishop of Rome by reason that his place was the first in order among the Patriarkes which is all the prerogatiue that Iulius in his Epistle claymeth for himselfe and his See This is that ecclesiasticall Canon and priuilege which Socrates and Sozomenus doe mention when they say the Councell of Antioch did against the Canons in that they called not the Bishop of Rome to their assemblie Phi. The deposition of a Bishoppe was no matter of such importance that a Prouinciall Synode might not attempt it without the rest Theo. Yes the deposing of a Patriarke was in it selfe a matter of great weight and required the consent of the rest as appeareth by that which the Councell of Antioch long before this did against Paulus Samosatenus where you shall finde the causes of his condemnation layde downe at large in their letters written to all Prouinces and namely to Dionysius and Maximus Bishops of Rome and Alexandria but yet the wrong offered Athanasius at this time touched the fayth Church of Christ nearer than one mans iniurie Phi. Why Theo. The Arians by their shifts and practises had almost gotten the most part of the East Churches and finding the two principall Archbishops of Constantinople and Alexandria greatly to hinder their enterprise for that their prouinces were very wide and many that stoutly defended the trueth were shielded by them they thought best to inuade them both at one time thrusting Paulus from his Bishopricke by plaine force and pretending a Canon of their owne making against Athanasius Which if the West Bishops had quietly suffered without enterposing them selues and assisting their brethren two parts of the worlde by their silence had beene drowned in Arianisme and themselues in great danger not long to remaine without the same infection This respect made them earnest for Athanasius as Sozomene noteth The Bishops throughout the East that fauoured the Nicene faith were deposed and the cheefest Seates inuaded by the Arrians as Alexandria in Egypt Antioche in Syria the Royal Citie of Constantinople in Hellespont This the Bishop of Rome the Priests of the west tooke to be their reproch and therefore very friendly entertayned Athanasius at his comming to them and tooke vpon them the defence of his cause Phi. This is not all that Iulius did for Athanasius Theo. What els can you shew that hee did Phi. Hee called a generall Councell to determine this matter and made Constantius the Emperour glad to receiue Athanasius to his former seate Theo. By mine aduise you should haue left out this it will come very short of your reckoning Phi. Not a whit Theo. Be not so peremptorie Phi. What was not this that I say done for Athanasius Theo. It was Phi. Who then besides Iulius could bring this to passe Theo. An other if you could light on him Phi. What was he Theo. Constans the West Emperour Phi. Who sayth so besides you Theo. The three writers of the Church storie which with one consent agree that the West Emperour called the Councel and threatened his brother if Athanasius and Paulus were not suffered to enioy their former places Iulius when the letters which he sent touching Paulus and Athanasius did nothing preuaile with the East Bishoppes opened their cause to Constans the Emperour Constans wrote to his brother that he should send some of the Bishops of the East to shewe him the reason why these men were deposed Three were chosen who comming to Italie went about to perswade the Emperour that the Synode of the East Bishops had done well and Constans perceiuing they had done vniustly sent thē backe whence they came And because Constans requiring this fauour at his brothers hands that Athanasius the rest with him might be restored could not obtaine so much and those that were with Paulus and Athanasius getting to his presence besought him that a Synode might be called it pleased the Emperour that the bishops of either side should meet at Sardica by a certaine day prefixed Phi. It might please him they should do so but how proue you the thither they came by his authoritie Theo. Athanasius going to Constans bewayled vnto him the violence that was offered the Apostolicke faith Putting the Prince in mind of his fathers acts that the
must his owne prouince shoulde take stitch against him But howe can you proue that he alone was spoken to Phi. The words be plaine Obsecro vt scribas I beseech you to write in the singular nūber Theo. What if a man should distrust the print or the Copie woulde it not tempt your patience Phi. Haue we not good cause if you beginne to discredite euery thing that maketh against you Theo. Whether I suspect the place vppon iust occasion or no your selfe shall bee Iudge Chrysostome in this Epistle hauing reported at large the violent and enormous rage of his enemies against him and his adherents commeth at last to make his petition not to Ionnocentius alone as you conceiue but generally to the West Bishoppes Igitur Domini maxime venerandi pij cum haec ita se habere didiceritis studium vestrum magnam diligentiam adhibite quo retundatur haec quae in ecclesias irrupit iniquitas Therefore most reuerent and religious Lordes since you see what is done put to your endeuours and diligence that this wickednes which is broken into the Church may be beaten back Quippe si mos hic inualuerit scitote quod breui transibunt omnia Quapropter ne confusio haec omnem quae sub celo est natione minuadat obsecro vt scribatis quod haec tam iniquè facta robur non habeant nobis verò literis vestris charitate vestra frui concedite For if this grow to a custome knowe you that al things wil shortly come to nought therfore least this confusion attempt euery nation vnder heauen I beseeche not one of you but al you to write that these things so vniustly doone may be taken as voide and you all graunt that we may enioy your letters your fauours And so goeth he on to the very end with verbes of the plural number leauing off with these words Haec omnia cum ita se habere intellexeritis a dominis meis pientissimis fratribus nostris Episcopis obsecro vt praestetis id quod petent officij Al these things when you shall perceaue to be true by these my Lordes and most godly brethren the Bishops whom I haue sent I beseeche you giue them that assistance which they shall aske The whole petition from the first word to the last is made to them al without exception the selfe same sentence where hee prayeth them to write hath these woordes nobis verò literis vestris frui concedite you all graunt vs your letters Now whether obsecro vt scribas can stand with these wordes literis vestris frui concedite or rather obsecro vt scribatis I referre it to your selfe this you can not denie but hee requireth ayde of them all and prayeth their common letters which is enough to shew that Chrysostome ment Innocentius shoulde take with him the generall consent of the West Bishops And so he did For this wrongful and vnrighteous dealing against Chrysostome sayth Theodorete the Bishops of Europe did greatly detest and therefore seuered themselues from the communion of those that were the doers thereof Phi. I graunt they did but Innocentius alone did excommunicate the chiefe doers euen Arcadius the Emperour Eudoxia the Empresse Arsacius Theophilus the Patriarkes of Constantinople and Alexandria Theo. Who told you so Phi. The bull is extant to this day Theo. A bull of that antiquitie were newes in deede Phi. You may soone finde him Theo. Where Phi. In the 13. booke and 34. Chapter of Nicephorus ecclesiasticall historie Theo. I was afraide you would haue quoted Socrates or Sozomene Phi. Nicephorus is as good Theo. Not by ten parts of twelue Phi. Why not Theo. Besides that he loadeth the whole historie of the Church with many fables and visions he liued thirteene hundred yeres after Christ as your owne frinds confesse which in comparison of the rest is but yesterday Therefore if Socrates Theodorete and Sozomene which wrote at that very time when these thinges were done report no such matter I would faine know which way Nicephorus that came a thousand yeere after them could light on a true constat of this ecclesiasticall censure Phi. Perhaps he found it in some auncient Librarie Theo. As though the Patriarks and Princes of Greece would suffer such a president against themselues to lie quiet in their Libraries a thousand yeres Phi. That reason of yours is but coniecturall Theo. Then heare that which is effectual and you shal see the framer of this bull proue himselfe a calfe The twentieth day of Iune Honorius and Aristinetus being Consuls Chrysostome was caried from his Church into banishment by the Emperours Edict as Socrates witnesseth The thirtieth of September the same yere a mightie hayle fell in Constantinople and the suburbes thereabout and the fourth day after the hayle Eudoxia the Empresse died The next yere the eleuenth day of Nouember when Stelichon the second time Anthemius were Consuls Arsacius died The next yere after that which was the sixt of Arcadius and the first of Probus a very religious man named Atticus was chosen Bishop of Constantinople The next yeere which was the seuenth of Honorius and the second time of Theodosius Consulship the fourtenth day of Nouember Iohn Chrysostome died in banishment You doubt not of this accompt I trust Phi. As yet I see no cause to doubt it Socrates was then aliue when these things were in action Theo. The same order of their deaths you shall finde in Sozomene a writer of that age also when these troubles were hottest Phi. What then after all this Theo. Your solemne Bull auoucheth Chrysostome to be dead and Eudoxia to be liuing after him which died three whole yeres before him Phi. What It doeth not I hope Theo. Marke the wordes Tamet si enim beatus Iohānis vitam reliquit in eterna tamen secula immortalis vitae haereditatem est consecutus Verùm illa excipiet presentem hic paenam futurum sempiternum supplicium post non multos hosce dies ei adueniens Itaque ego minimus peccator cui thronus magni Apostoli Petri creditus est segrego reijcio te illam a perceptione immaculatorū mysteriorum Christi For although blessed Iohn Chrysostomde parted this life yet hath he gottē the inheritance of an immortal life for euer but Eudoxia shall receaue a present punishment in this world and eternal paines that shall befall her afore many dayes be past Therfore I though the least and a sinner to whom the throne of Peter the great Apostle is committed do segregate and cut off thee O Emperour her from receauing the vndefiled mysteries of Christ c. How think you was the contriuer of this Bull wel in his wits to threaten that the Empresse should shortly die which was dead long before to put her from receauing the Communion after she had beene three yeres buried Phi. Perhaps Innocentius knew not
their mutuall consents for the suppressing of errors that dayly sprang when generall Councels coulde not bee called In which case the Bishop of Rome both in respect of his Citie that was Imperiall and his See that was Apostolicall vsed to receiue the first letters Phi. The Councell of Carthage writeth thus to Innocentius Hoc itaque gestum charitati tuae intimandum duximus vt statutis nostrae mediocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur auctoritas pro tuenda salute multorum That which was done we thought good to intimate to your charitie that to the decrees of our meannesse the authoritie of your Apostolike See might be added for the sauing of many from infection Theo. First they for their partes decreed against Pelagius without the Bishop of Rome next they seeke the consent of the Bishop of Rome not to make that good which they had done but to preuaile the rather with many that were out of their Prouince Error ipse impietas quae tam multos assertores habet per diuersa dispersos etiam auctoritate Apostolicae sedis anathematizanda est This error and impietie which hath so many fauorers dispersed in so many places had neede be condemned by the credit and authoritie of your Apostolike See Phi. Innocentius saith they did but their dueties Theo. A man might soone intreate Innocentius to take enough vpon him and yet the worst he saith is this Arbitror omnes fratres Episcopos nostros quoties fidei ratio ventilatur non nisi ad Petrum id est sui nominis honoris authorem referre debere velut nunc retulit vestra dilectio I thinke that all our brethren and fellow Bishops when any matter of faith is in question ought to referre the same to none but to Peter the author of their office and honor as now your kindnesse hath done Where by referring to Peter he did not meane as you do that all faith and Religion should depende on the Popes sleeue but that when they had concluded as they saw cause they should giue him intelligence to this ende that he might cōcur with them for the better repressing of heresie with full consent Now that which Innocentius made but a thought of you since that time proclaime for a Gospell Phi. Innocentius would not thinke so without some ground Theo. Thoughts are weake proofes when the case is our owne And Innocentius Epistles in answere of these two Councels Erasmus noteth for want of words wit and learning requisit for so great a Prelate Phi. Erasmus is very bolde with the Fathers Theo. Your decretall Epistles be euen such for the most part mary that is not to this purpose Basill is the next man in your beadrole who called as you say for helpe of Liberius Felix and other Bishops of Italie but can you tell vs where we shall finde all these thinges that you affirme Phi. In his Epistles Theo. There be foure or fiue Epistles of his written to the West Bishops in general and to the Bishops of Italie and Fraunce for succor and helpe where the Bishop of Rome perhaps is included as one amongst the rest but neuer intreated nor so much as named asunder from the rest And here may you learne of Basill the cause why good men being oppressed in the East Church by the craft and power of heretikes or enimies sought to the West for ayde and assistance Not that they tooke the Bishop of Rome for supreme Iudge of all doubts and doctrines as left in Christs steede but that the number concorde of the West Bishops might temper and hinder the malice of their aduersaries and bring their quarels to be decided in an open and euen Councell So Basill aduiseth Athanasius to do For the experience that I haue had in things I know this to be the only way to get help that our Churches are linked with the West Bishops For if they will readily shew the same zeal for our Coūtries which they did against one or two that were diffamed in the West perhaps somwhat wil be done that shall generally profit all whereby those that are in authority may be moued to reuerence their number the people euery where wil follow thē without contradiction And Basil himself writing to thē As much cōfort helpe as you can saith he delay not to yeeld to the distressed and afflicted Churches As we thinke the concord vnitie which you enioy there among your selues to be our own happines so ought you to labor with vs in these dissentions which assault vs. If then there be any comfort of loue if any communion of the spirit if any bowels of pitie be moued to helpe vs take ye the zeale of godlines deliuer vs from this tempest And describing at large the miserable state of the Churches thereabout The principles of godlines saith he be ouerthrowen the rites of religion peruerted faith it selfe in daunger godlie preachers put to silence euery blasphemous mouth is open holy thinges are prophaned and those that are sound amōg the people flee the house of prayers as in the which impietie is published Therefore while yet some stand before a perfect and full shipwrack oppresse the Church hastē vnto vs hasten at the lēgth yet What you shall do to help vs we neede not tell you but onely this that you must make speed the presence of many brethren will be requisite for this matter to this end that they which come may make a full and iust Synode This is the chiefest thing that we require that by your meanes the troubles of our coūtries may be knowen to the Emperours own person or if that be hard that some of you come to see comfort the afflicted The thinges that we spake many suspect as proceeding of priuate contention you the farther you dwel off the more credit you haue with the people If therfore many of you with one consent shal decree the same it is euident that the verie number of you concurring in one minde with vs shall cause all men to receiue this doctrine without any doubting You see what helpe Basill asked of the West Bishops making no mention of the Bishop of Rome but praying them all to ioyne togither and to shewe their zeales for the truth either by meeting in a ful Synod for the condēnation of such errors as were newly risen in the church or by writing their letters to the East Bishops that the teachers embracers of those impieties should be seuered frō the communion of the faithfull vntill their amendment The redresse of these things we seeke for at your hands the which you shall performe if it please you to write to all the East Churches that those which in this sort haue corrupted the doctrine of truth be then admitted to the communiō when they correct their errors if they will not be brought from this innouation but frowardly continue the same
and Paul in the fifteenth yeare of his conuersion or as himselfe speaketh After fourteene yeares came not to Rome but to Ierusalem to conferre with Peter which at least must be the 48. yeare of Christ and foure yeares after Peters installation at Rome And after that when Peter came to Antioch and began to dissemble for feare of the Iewes which were sent from Iames Paul resisted him to his face and sharpely rebuked him not respecting that hee was then in his pontificalibus and newly made Bishop of Rome as you your selues beleeue Now choose whether you will disclaime Peter for no Bishop of Rome and so loose your succession from him or graunt that the Bishop of Rome may be lawfully resisted as Peter was which is the very thing you required vs to proue One of these twaine you shall neuer auoide do what you can Phi. I may not deny that Paul did it the Scripture is plaine I resisted him to his face but whether he did no more than he might or how to his face is a Schole-point and a pretie question Theo. No question at all vnlesse you will charge Paul with rashnesse in doing it vnshamefastnesse in writing it and wilfulnesse in directlie defending it For by this dissention doth he proue the â—oundnesse of his doctrine and by Peters yeelding hee confirmeth the Galathians that were wauering And therefore you must either allowe this resistaunce for good and lawfull or else conclude this Epistle to bee no Scripture and Paul to be voide of the holy Ghost in proposing an vnhonest and vngodly fact of his owne for a president which to say were no small blasphemie Phi. I did not auouch it but only moue the question Theo. You must moue no such questions if you be a Christian they be reprochfull to the spirit of God and iniurious to his word You were driuen to a narrow straite when you came to this shift You be loth I see to confesse either but there is no remedy Philander you must yeelde vs one of these whether you will or no. Phi. Let me heare the rest and then you shall know my minde Theo. Resist not truth to maintaine your credit God will surely reuenge it This example is ineuitable studie till your braines ake for an answere But the rest you shall heare Polycarpus being at Rome when Anicetus was Bishop there they dissenting in some other small matters were by and by reconciled but touching the obseruation of Easter-day which in diuerse places was diuersely kept Anicetus could not perswade Polycarpus to leaue those thinges which he had alwayes obserued with Iohn the Disciple of our Lord and the rest of the Apostles with whom he had beene conuersant Phi. The contention was but in words betweene them Theo. Yes they differed in deedes and Polycarpus could not be induced by any wordes to follow that manner of celebrating Easter-day which Anicetus receiued from those Apostles that founded the Romane Church This coÌ„trouersie waxed hoatter in Victors time who for the very same cause went about to cut off al the Churches of Asia from the vnitie of communion as intangled with some strange opinion and by letters inueighed against them and vtterly denounced al the brethren there excommunicated but for all his hast he was quickly staied Phi. By whom Theo. Polycrates in the behalfe of the Churches of Asia amongest other thinges replyeth thus to Victor I that haue seene threescore fiue yeares in the Lord and haue coÌ„ferred with the brethren throughout the world and haue turned and searched the holy Scripture will neuer be afraid of those thinges that are done to terrifie me I could make mention of the Bishops that are with me whoÌ„ you required me to send for and so I did whose names if I would recken they would make a great multitude which taking the paines to visit me a man of small account consent to this Epistle Victors deede did not please all the Bishops that otherwise were of his side Yea many of their letters saith Eusebius are extant that did sharply reproue Victor Amongest whom Ireneus was one that wrote in the name of his brethren of Fraunce where he was chiefe and allowed Victors opinion that the mysterie of the Lordes resurrection should bee kept onely vpon Sundaie But yet he wisely and largelie warneth Victor that he should not excommunicate all the churches of God obseruing their auncient tradition Phi. They withstood him in a small and trifling cause Theo. You take holde of that which doth hurt you To resist whom they should not in a matter that they neede not is a double offence and then shoulde Ireneus and others haue rather reproued Polycrates and his adherentes for neglecting their dueties than the Bishop of Rome for passing his boundes but in that hee was stoutly resisted by the one and sharpelie reproued by the other it is euident that neither of them tooke him for his sole and supreme directer of Christes Church on earth Of Cyprian I said before that he counselled the Church of Spain to reiect Basilides notwithstanding his restitution by Stephanus Bishop of Rome and howe vehemently the saide Stephanus was resisted by Cyprian for the rebaptizing of such as forsooke their heresies his Epistle to Pompeius doth aboundantlie witnesse Because you desired to knowe what aunswere our brother Stephanus Bishoppe of Rome returned to our letters I haue sent you a copie of that he wrote By the reading whereof you shall more and more perceiue his error that hee laboureth to maintaine the cause of heretickes against the Church of God For amongest other thinges either superfluous or impertinent or contrarie to themselues which he writeth vnskilfully and vnwisely hee added this c. And hauing repeated and refuted the wordes of Stephanus What blindnesse of heart saith Cyprian is this and what peruersenesse that hee will not acknowledge the vnitie of faith comming from God the Father by the deliuery of our Lorde Iesus Christ And where no heresie no nor schisme can haue the sanctification of healthfull baptisme out of the Church why doth the inflexible obstinacie of our brother Stephanus breake out so farre that of Martions baptisme and such like blasphemers against God the Father he auoucheth children may be borne vnto God It commeth of too much presumption and frowardnes that a man had rather defende his owne though it bee false and naught than yeelde to an others deedes and words How like you this resisistance doth it go to the quicke or no Phi. This was an error in Cyprian for Stephanus held the truth Theo. The question is not whether Cypryan were deceiued but whether Stephanus were resisted I grant in this case Stephanus had the better part but yet Cyprian the Bishops of Africa thought theÌ„selues to be right vpon that opinion of truth how far they resisted the Bishop of Rome their acts Epistles declare Phi. Their matter I tel you was naught
Theo. That doth rather fasten than shake my conclusioÌ„ For if Cyprian the Bishops of Africa when their cause was not good resisting the Bishops of Rome both in words deeds were taken accounted in the Church of God for Christian Catholike Bishops yea Cyprian the chiefe leader of them and most earnest against him for a worthie Father glorious Martyr how much more then in a right and iust cause might the Bishops of Rome be lawfully resisted in those dayes The which I may likewise conclude by the next example where the Bishops of Rome were not onely resisted but at length forced to yeelde to Flauianus although their strife with him at the first seemed to carry some reason Phi. Did they not wel to reiect him that was made Bishop against his oth Flauianus was one of those that were sworne neither to seeke nor to accept the Bishopricke of Antioch if they were chosen till Miletius Paulinus were both dead that thereby the Church of Antioch which before was diuided in two partes vnder two Bishops might be ioyned togither and vnited in one and hee vpon the death of Miletius whiles Paulinus yet liued not respecting his oth was content to take the place Theo. I sayde there was some cause for the Bishoppes of Rome to refuse him and yet notwithstanding the goodnesse of their quarrell and sharpenesse of contention which Damasus Syriâ—ius Athanasius and Innocentius maintayned against him all the Churches of the East of Asia Pontus Thracia and Illyricum tooke part with Flauianus defended his election and receiued his communion though the Bishops of Rome would do neither And Theodosius the elder a very religious Emperour hauing the courage and wisedom of Flauianus in admiration and seeing the number of Churches that did communicate with him willed him to returne feede the Church or flock committed to his charge Against whom when the Bishoppe of Rome made a long accusation the godly Prince vndertooke his defence pleaded his cause and exhorted them to knit their Churches togither and to leaue striuing and extinguish those foolish brables And so was the Bishop of Rome glad to giue ouer the quarell which hee and three of his predecessors had for the space of seuenteene yeares egerly followed against Flauianus How little Cyrillus esteemed the communion of the Bishop of Rome doeth well appeare by his answere to Atticus where hee vehemently diswadeth that Chrysostoms name after his death should be put in the Catalogue of Bishops notwithstanding Innocentius and the West Bishops would not communicate with Egypt or the East partes till that were obtayned Phi. It was a fault in Cyrill to be so vehement against Chrysostom in fauor of his vnkle Theophilus the chiefe doer of all this and that ouersight he after corrected by yeelding to that which before he rufused Theo. What moued Cyrill at the first to withstand and after to yeeld I neede not care you may not iudge were the cause good or bad to my purpose all is one this is it that I vrge neither Cyrill nor Atticus nor the Churches with them were reputed schismaticall for lacking or neglecting so long time the communioÌ„ of the Bishop of Rome though the matter they stood on were skant sound Phi. You should bring vs an example where the Bishop of Rome was withstood by a Councell the factes of priuate men carie not so great credit as when they bee done in a publike Synode Theo. The men that I haue named vnto you were no such obscure persons that you neede doubt of theyr credit They were for their calling and function Bishops and Patriarkes for their learning and holinesse lightes in the Church of Christ and are so taken to this daie Neither as you suppose were they alone in these actions but had the Bishoppes and Churches adioyning to take their partes and did these thinges which I spake of in open Councell Polycrates had with him a Councell in Asia when he resisted Victor and Ireneus had likewise an other in Fraunce when he reproued him Cyprian and 84. Africane Bishops ioyned together in the CouÌ„cel of Carthage against Stephanus With Flauianus as Sozomene writeth were the Bishops of Syria Phenica Armenia Cappadocia Galatia as Theodorete sayth all the Churches of Asia Pontus Thracia Illyricum besides all the East Churches That which Cyrill defended was done by two Councels allowed by the three Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople Antioche and their Prouinces And therefore these are no priuate men nor matters as you pretend but thinges done in open Synodes by no meane Bishoppes And yet to content your mind you shall see where the Bishop of Rome clayming farre lesse authoritie than hee doeth at this day was openly resisted in a Councell of 217. Bishops to his immortall shame and your vtter ouerthrow in this cause Sozimus Bishop of Rome sending his Legats Faustinus Philippus and Asellus to the sixt Councell of Carthage in fauour of Apiarius a Priest that fled to Rome for ayde against Vrbanus his Dioecesane which had taken both his function the communion from him for his lewdnes amongst other things gaue them in charge to clayme this prerogatiue for him and his See that if any Bishoppes were accused or deposed and appealed to Rome the Byshoppe of Rome might either write to the next Prouince to determine the matter or send some from his side to represent his person and to sit in iudgement with the Bishoppes And to proue this lawfull he cited in writing vnder his hande a Canon of the Councell of Nice tending to that effect The Godly fathers assembling themselues out of all Africa to the number of 217. and finding no such Canon in their bookes either Greeke or Latine wrate to the Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople and Antioche for true and authentike copies of the Nicene Councell and seeing their owne copies agree worde for worde with those that were brought and no such thing to bee found in any Canon there first by their decree cut off appeales to Rome and secondly by their letters traduced the Bishop of Rome as well for his ambition as forgerie Phi. An old broken matter often alleaged and offen answered Theo. You could doe litle if you could not crake but that will not serue your turnes you must spare vs a better answere In deede Bonifacius the second doeth answere the matter in this sort Aurelius praefatae Carthagiensis ecclesiae olim Episcopus cum collegis suis instigante Diabolo superbire temporibus praedecessorum nostrorum Bonifacij Caelestini contra Romanam ecclesiam cepit Aurelius once Bishoppe of Carthage with his collegues amongst whom was S. Austen with many other learned and Godly fathers in the time of Bonifacius and Caelestinus our predecessours began through the instigation of the Deuill to be malepart with the church of Rome If you take this for an answere so is it other I know
do the like Thirdly since the Romane Emperors were wōt to cōmand him what reason cā you bring why christiā princes shold not now restrain him And last of al if you forget not your self my promise was to shew that not in the primatiue Church only when there was no question of his obedience to religious princes but in latter times when the Bishop of Rome presumed to be Lorde ouer all he was controled resisted by those Councels Common-wealthes which your owne Church neuer durst reiect as schismaticall and hereticall Phi. In some thinges they withstood him but not in all thinges as you doe Theo. That shift is litle worth If resistāce be lawful in part why not in al whē iust cause requireth Phi. In matters of faith they neuer resisted Theo. That maketh our resistāce the more lawful They withstood him for an earthly policy we for Christes glorie they for externall discipline we for Apostolicall doctrine Therefore if they might lawfully resist much more may we But my demand is onely whether you see that as the Bishop of Rome withstood others in the regiment of the Church so many Councels Countries Princes Prelats withstood him as the places which I bring conuince Phi. What if they did Theo. First did they that which I speake or no Phi. Grant they did Theo. Then your examples conclude nothing against vs. For as hee resisted others in causes Ecclesiasticall so did others resist him and our examples inferre against you that your owne Church neuer obeied that supreme power and infallible iudgement which he now claimeth you now yeeld to flatter him with Phi. They tooke him for Christes Uicar and Peters successour Theo. How they tooke him in latter ages it greatly skilleth not the learned and ancient Fathers call him Peters successor Christes Uicar they neuer call him And graunt he be Peters successor that importeth no supremacie Phi. Doth it not Theo. No mary doth it not You must first proue that Peter was supreme gouernour of all the Church which you shall neuer do Next you must proue that this dignitie was not proper to Peters person but common to Peters successour which we denie For Peters primacie was giuen him in respect of the confession which he made not in respect of the place which he should inioy Lastly you must shew which of Peters chayres must haue Peters priuiledge that is why Rome rather than Antioch These three points when you iustly proue we will say more to your vaine pretences and glorious titles in the meane time till occasion serue to make farther triall you may go forwarde with the rest of your Apologie which if it be like this it will do your friendes litle good and your foes lesse hurt Phi. You disgrace that which you can not disproue Theo. Wee neede no better disproofe than the sober reading of your insolent and impertinent discourses purposely made to commend and aduaunce your selues and your adherentes aboue the skies Phi. Where do we so Theo. Almost in euerie leafe For example this whole chapter is spent in flattering your holy Father praising his deuout citie The next hath nothing else but the commendation of your selues your Seminaries as if the proclaiming of his your vertues were the chiefest point of his and your faith Phi. You say not well we do not so Theo. Reade the places you shall finde them full of these and such like flowers To Rome Whatsoeuer is learned wise vertuous of all the most famous Vniuersities Monasteries Societies and Celleges through the world is recuiled as to a continuall mar◠of all kinde of doctrine prudence And againe These and such other high experiments with innumerable examples of vertue and deuotion shall this Romane institution giue to our Countrimen vnder the famousest teachers gouernours of youth in our age or som worlds before Who otherwise would admire their pety masters at home the cause of al error ignorāce Ar you not liberal in praising your selues Belike you thinke with your only looks to daūt all the Diuines preachers of Englād as if not a fewe wandring friers craking Iesuites but some new Cyprians or famous Augustins were lately arriued at your Romish Seminarie But let passe your follies come to your autorities To what end aleage you S. Hierō Phi. S. Hierom calleth Rome the place of greatest faith and deuotion Theo. What then Ierusalem was first a faithfull Citie yet in time became a shamelesse strumpet Niniueth was spared for her true repentance afterward plagued for her robberies and lies What Rome was then doeth no way proue what Rome is now You must send vs better reasons from Rome for Rome before you shall perswade vs that there is at Rome such store of learning and vertue as you vaunt of If Rome be changed since Hierom wrate your conclusiō halteth though his wordes goe right Phi. That change you must proue Theo. Alas good Sirs begin you now to doubt whether Rome be changed Reade your owne Friers Monkes and Abbots and you shall soone be resolued in that doubt Frier Mantuan sayth shortly but truely Viuere qui sanctè cupitis discedite Roma Omnia cum liceant non licet esse bonum You that wish to liue godly depart from Rome al things are there suffred saue godlines Mathew Paris a Monke of S. Albons euery where toucheth the vertues of the church of Rome saith they were known to the verie miscreants For when y◠Souldan of Iconium desired to be baptised from Rome his nobles by reason of so many vices abounding at Rome sayd Howe can there come sweet and salt water from the same fountaine whence Christians should fet the water of righteousnes there they find a poysoned pudle And in the yere of our Lord 1241 he sayth The vnsatiable greedines of the Church of Rome so increased confounding right and wrong that without shame as a common impudent harlot she lay open for money to euery man counting vsurie for a small fault and Symonie for none But no man more liuely describeth the maners and dispositions of the latter Romanes than Bernard Abbot of Clareuallis and that not priuily behind their backs but openly to their faces forewarning Eugenius the pope what to looke for at their hands Quid tam notum seculis quà m proteruia fastus Romanorum Gens insueta paci tumultui assueta Gens immitis intractabilis vsque ad huc subdi nescia nisi cum non valet resistere Experire paucis nouerim ne ego gentis mores Ante omnia sapientes sunt vt faciant mala bonum autem facere nesciunt Impij in deum temerarij in sancta seditiosi in inuicem emuli in vicinos inhumani in extraneos Hij sunt qui subesse non sustinēt praeesse non norunt superioribus infideles inferioribus importabiles inuericundi ad petendum ad negandum frontosi
and other places at this day do wee not indure all the tormentes you can deuise because wee will not beleeue what temporall Lordes and Masters list Your owne conscience knoweth it is true that wee saie Why then doe you charge vs with this wicked assertion from the which wee bee farther off than you For you holde opinion of Popes that they cannot erre we do not of Princes Why do you father your owne fansies vppon vs Why d ee you purposely peruert the question heaping absurdities and alleaging authorities against that which we do not defend Phi. The oth which you take your selues and exact of others induceth vs thus to thinke of you For there you make Princes the onely supreme Gouernours of all persons in all causes as well spirituall as temporall vtterly renouncing all forraine iurisdictions superiorities and authorities Uppon which wordes marke what an horrible confusion of all faith and Religion insueth If Princes bee the onely Gouernours in Ecclesiasticall matters then in vaine did the holy Ghost appoint Pastours and Bishops to gouern the Church If they bee supreme then are they superiour to Christ himselfe and in effect Christes Masters If in all thinges and causes spirituall then they may prescribe to the priestes and Bishops what to preach which way to worship and serue God how in what forme to minister the Sacramentes and generally howe men shall be gouerned in soule If all forraine iurisdiction must bee renounced then Christ his Apostles because they were are forreners haue no iurisdiction nor authoritie ouer England A thowsand other absurdities are consequent to this oth which anon you shall heare Theo. Wake you or dreame you Philander that in matters of no lesse weight than your duetie to God and the Prince you fall to these childish and pelting sophismes What kinde of concluding call you this Princes onely beare the sword to commaund and punish ergo Bishops may not teach and exhort Princes be not subiect to the Pope ergo superiours to Christ. They may by their lawes establish those thinges that Christ hath commaunded ergo they may change both Scriptures and Sacramentes No forrainer at this day hath any iurisdiction ouer this Land ergo Christ and his Apostles fifteene hundred yeeres ago might not preach the Gospel Phi. We make no such fond reasons Theo. The former propositions are the true contens of the oth which wee take the later are those very absurdities which you infer vpon vs for taking that oth Phi. You would slip from your words which wee knowe to your meaning which we know not but that you shal not We grouÌ„ded our absurdities vpoÌ„ the words of your oth For if princes be supreme gouernors in al spiritual things causes ergo they be supreme iudges of faith deciders of controuersies interpreters of scriptures deuisers of ceremonies appointers of sacrameÌ„ts what not The. You might euen as well haue coÌ„cluded princes be supreme gouernors in al teÌ„poral things causes ergo they be supreme guiders of graÌ„mer moderators of Logik directors of Rhetorik appointers of Musike prescribers of Medicines resoluers of al doubtes iudges of al matters incident any way to reason art or actioÌ„ If this be leud irreuereÌ„t iesting yours is no better Ph. I promise you we iest not The. The more shame for you if you be in earnest to conclude so loosely Phi. Do you make princes supreme gouernors of al spiritual things Theo. You reason as if we did but our words since you wil needes rest vpon wordes are not so Phi. What are they then The. We coÌ„fesse them to be supreme gouernors of their Realms DominioÌ„s Phi. And that in al spriritual things causes The. Not of al spiritual things causes Ph. What differeÌ„ce between those two speeches Theo. Iust as much as excludeth your wrangling Wee make them not gouernors of the things themselues but of all their subiectes which I trust you dare not withstand Phi. I grant they be gouernors of their subiects but not in Ecclesiasticall things or causes They must leaue those matters for Bishops whoÌ„ Christ hath appointed to be yâ— rulers of his church And therfore your oth yeelding that power to princes which is proper to Bishops is repugnant to the lawes of God the church nature Yea it is an euideÌ„t error reproueable by al humane diuine learning that the souerainty or supremacy in causes Ecclesiasticall is by nature or by christian lawes implied in the right title of a temporal king or that it euer was due or can be due to any temporall gouernor heathen or christiaÌ„ in the world And if you will but giue eare you shal heare what a number of absurdities we wil fasten vpon you The. This oth is a great eye sore with you and I remember I promised to discusse the same in this chapter I will therefore first examine the chiefe parts of it and after you shall obiect against it what you can Where we professe that her Highnes is the onely gouernor of this Realme the word gouernor doth seuer the magistrate from the minister sheweth a manifest differeÌ„ce between their office For Bishops be no gouernors of countries princes be that is Bishops bear not the sword to reward reuenge princes do Bishops haue no power to command punish princes haue This appeareth by the words of our Sauiour expressely forbidding his Apostles to be rulers of nations leauing it to princes The kings of nations rule ouer their people and they that be great ones exercise authority With you it shal not be so that is you shall neither beare rule nor exercise authority ouer your brethren Phi. The word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they ouerrule their subiects with iniustice violence you shal not do so Theo. So your new translatioÌ„ ouer ruleth the word howbeit Christ in that place doth not traduce the power of princes as vniust or outragious but distinguisheth yâ— calling of his Apostles froÌ„ the maner of regimeÌ„t which God hath allowed the magistrate Christ â—aith not princes bee tyrantes you shal deale more curteously than they do but he saith Princes bee Lords and rulers ouer their people by Gods ordinaÌ„ce you shal not be so Again the word which S. Luke hath is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without any composition They be Lords and masters S. Paul confesseth of himselfe other Apostles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Not that we be Lords or Masters of your faith yea the compound 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is with power force to rule meÌ„ whether they will or no not with wrong iniury to oppresse them therefore the conclusion is ineuitable that princes may lawfully compell punish their subiects which Bishops may not This distinction between them is euident by their seueral coÌ„missions which God hath signed The prince not the priest beareth the sword ergo the prince not
faith and which your Highnes for verie loue to trueth will make voide by your decree to the contrarie most glorious Emperour I therefore earnestly request and beseech your Maiestie by the Lord Iesus Christ the founder and guider of your kingdom that in this councell of Chalcedon which is presently to bee kept you will not suffer the faith to bee called in question which our blessed Fathers helde deliuered them from the Apostles neither permit such errours as haue beene long since condemned by them to bee nowe reuiued againe but that you will rather commaunde the faith concluded in the first Nicene Councell to stande in full force remouing all the latter deuises of Heretikes Which request Martian accomplished entering the Councell in his owne person and there by word of mouth absolutely forbidding the Bishops to defend or auouch any thing of the flesh and birth of our Sauiour otherwise thā the Nicene creed did containe To this councel of Chalcedon Leo willed by Martiā to subscribe returned his answere in this suppliant duetifull order Because I must by all meanes obey your sacred and religious will I haue set down my consent in writing to those Synodall constitutions which for the confirmation of the catholike faith and condemnation of heretiks pleased me very well What better witnesse can we produce that in causes Ecclesiasticall the Prince was the Popes superiour than this that for repealing the Councell of Ephesus for summoning the Councell o◠Chalcedon for charging those 600. and 30. fathers not to decline from the Nicene faith and requiring the Bishop of Rome to subscribe to their actes Martian commaundeth with authoritie Leo with al readinesse obeyeth yea that Leo beseecheth Martian to commaund and protesteth that for his part he did and must obey the Princes will in those cases We COMMAVND saith Iustinian the blessed ARCHBISHOPS of Rome Constantinople Alexandria Theopolis and Ierusalem to receiue for ordering and instauling of Bishoppes onely that which this present Lawe doeth allow And taxing the charges of euery Bishoppe according to the yearly value of his Church If any man saith hee presume to take for installations or other duties aboue the rate which we prefixe we cōmand that he repay thrise so much of his own to the church or bishop in that sort grieued Neither doth he limit the Popes receites onely but also bindeth him with the rest by this general constitution If any man be made Bishop contrary to the forme which this law prescribeth the party confirmed shall loose his Bishopricke and the confirmer stand suspended from his Ecclesiasticall function one whole year and besides forfeit all his goods to the vse of his owne church mary when a bishop is accused of any thing that doth by the sacred canons or our lawes hinder his consecration if any man order him before diligent examination had as well he that did order him as he that is ordered shal for euer be depriued Thus coulde auncient Princes commaund in causes and correct for offences Ecclesiasticall euen the chiefest Patriarkes and namely the Bishop of Rome who now taketh on him to depose Princes and dispose kingdomes at his pleasure This illation is more than euident by the wordes of Gregorie the first who writing to the Emperour Mauritius vseth euery where this stile My Lord my most gracious Lord I your seruant and subiect to your commaundement and that not in temporall causes but in things concerning the rules and orders of Christes church as by the speciall circumstances will appeare Mauritius perceiuing that many coueted to be Clergi-men and Monkes some to preuent the daunger of their accomptes others to decline the burden of warfare made this decree that no souldier nor officer accountant to the Prince for any summes of mony should be receiued to sacred orders or Monastical profession charging the Bishoppe of Rome to giue notice thereof to the rest of his Prouince Gregorie though very much amased and grieued at the strangenesse of this law yet durst not resist or refuse the same but first with all diligence put the commaundement of Mauritius in execution and afterward fell to beseeching him to relent somewhat from the rigour of this hard and seuere prohibition My Lord hath giuen forth this edict saith he that no man entangled with seruice for the common weale should enter any ecclesiasticall function which I greatly praysed knowing that he which on the suddaine steppeth from a secular trade to a spiritual charge doth not meane to leaue but exchange the world Where it is added that none such should be suffered in any Monasterie this I maruailed at seeing the place doth not hinder the making of his accompts nor the paiment of his debts It followeth in the same law That no man once mustered as a souldier should cōuert from that calling and become a Monke Which constitution I confesse to my Lord did euen astonish mee because the way to heauen is thereby shut vp from many men and that now prohibited as vnlawfull which hath hitherto bin frankly permitted And what am I that speake to my Lord but dust and a verie worme Yet for that this Edict tendeth against God the creator of all thinges I can not conceale so much from my Lord. I therefore beseech you by the dreadful iudge that your holines wil either mitigate or abrogate this rigorus proclamation I for my part as subiect to your commaundement haue sent your precept into sundrie coastes yet because your Lawe doeth not stand with Gods glorie Lo by letters I haue acquainted my most glorious Lord there-withall So that I haue either way done my duetie which haue both yeelded obedience to my Prince and in Gods behalfe disburdened my conscience I your vnworthie suppliant waxe not thus bold either in respect I am a Bishop or in that I am your seruant by publike right but resting on your speciall and priuate fauour for that most gracious Soueraigne you were my Lord and master when as yet you were not Lord and chiefe ouer all If it be possible for a subiect to shew more submission and dutie to the Princes commaundement than the Bishop of Rome doth to Mauritius restraining all Bishops by his princely power from admission of such Monkes and election of such Clerkes as hee disabled let your Apologie bee had in some credit but if greater obedience than these wordes import neither Gods law doth exact nor Princes can expect I trust Gregories owne confession shal be taken without exception The like submission vpon like occasion is extant in other his Epistles as when Mauritius willed him to grow to some concord with Iohn Bishop of Cōstantinople to whom or from whom Gregorie would in no wise send or accept letters of communion societie because the saide Iohn entitled him vniuersall Patriarke I haue saith hee receiued letters from my vertuous Lord that I should be at peace with my brother and fellow Bishop Iohn In deed
it well beseemeth a religious Prince to commaund Bishops in such things mary this was heauie to me that my Soueraigne Lord did not rebuke him for his pride but indeuor to bow me from my purpose which in this cause stand with humilitie and sinceritie to defend the Gospel and Canons Hee rather is worthie to bee threatned with your Maiesties commandement which refuseth to be subiect to the Canons he to be repressed which offereth a wrong to the vniuersall Church Let my Lord I beseech him somewhat respect me being his own whom he hath alwayes fauored aboue others which am also very desirous to yeeld him obedience and yet am I loth to be conuicted in that last fearfull iudgement of ouer much negligence Let my Soueraign Lord voutsafe to sit iudge in this matter himself or els to make him to surcease his inteÌ„t I as obedieÌ„t to my Lords precepts haue gentlely written to my said fellow Bishop humbly warned him to forgo that vaine title As much as in me lieth I am readie to obey the commandement of your Maiestie yet for that the cause is not mine but Gods not I alone but the whole church is troubled let my gracious Lord launce the right place where the wound is and subdue the patieÌ„t that resisteth him with the strength of his imperiall power Againe when Maximus was ordered Bishop of Salona within Gregories Prouince yet without Gregories knowledge thus he coÌ„planeth of him to Constantia then Empresse The Bishop of Salona was ordered neither I nor my respoÌ„sarie witting therof which thing was neuer atteÌ„pted vnder any of the Princes your predecessors Assoone as I vnderstood therof I sent him word that he should not presume to celebrate diuine seruice that he meaneth by the name of Masse vntill I heard from my Soueraigne Lords that it was their pleasure it should be so but he setting naught thereby despising me goeth on stil will not resort vnto me according as my Lords coÌ„manded him Yet I obeying their graces precept did from my hart remit vnto the said Maximus this his presumption as freely as if he had been ordered Bishop by my consent Onely other offences of his as fleshly wantonnes entrance by Simony ministring the Lords supper after he was put from the coÌ„munioÌ„ these things I can not skip vnexamined for my duties sake to God before these things could be tried my soueraign Lord preuenting me with his precept commanded that I should receiue the said Maximus at his comming with all honour This is a pitifull case that a man accused of so great crimes should be honored before hee bee cleared if the faultes of those Bishops which be committed to my charge be born out with my gracious Lords in this sort by secret fauorers vnhappy man that I am what make I here in this church Wel that mine own Bishops contemne me haue a refuge against me to secular iudges I can not but thanke God impute it to my sinnes If the Bishop of Rome despised and ouerruled in his Episcopall iurisdictioÌ„ neither plead his own supremacy nor once kick at the Princes autority but rather submit himselfe as a seruant subiect of duty to the princes pleasure so far as he might with a safe conscience to Godward besides the man so religious the matter so serious that in this case iesting were not excusable lying intollerable then may you be fully resolued that the primatiue church neuer heard of this leud arrogant presumption which the Pope now claimeth vsurpeth I meane to be master deposer of Princes but that contrariewise the Bishops of Rome themselues euen in causes Ecclesiasticall kept the lawes and obeied the precepts of Christian Emperours as of their liege Lords soueraigne rulers The wordes of Gregorie be so vehement euident to this effect that no face caÌ„ deny them no cunning auoid them You must needs seeke farther for a new distinction Your first is foolish your second is false neither of them coherent with the sacred Scriptures or auncient histories Neither was Gregory the last Bishop of Rome that yeelded obedience to the princes power in causes ecclesiastical Agatho Bishop of that See 680. yeares after Christ when Constantine the 1. sent for certaine learned skilful men of the West parts to treat confer with the Grecians in the sixt general councell about the truth of religion returned this dutiful effectual answere Most gracious Lord saith he to CoÌ„stantine ioyning with him Heraclius Tiberius his brethren your sacred letters incouraging vs to shew foorth effectually our prompt diligent seruice for perfourming that which your edict coÌ„maunded for discharge of our duty to choose the fittest that could be found in this decaied age wretched prouince we haue directed these our fellow seruants according to the most godly precept of your Maiesty in regard of obedieÌ„ce which we did ow not for presumption of their knowledge for we waxed not bold vpon their cunning but your princely fauor mildly coÌ„manding so much did incite vs our basenesse hath obediently fulfilled that which was by you commaunded And in his second epistle to the same Princesse he saith Al the Bishops of the North West partes seruants of your christian Empire giue thanks to God for this your religious intent The calling of generall Councels to debate matters of faith is a point that precisely concerneth the regiment of Christs church in that case we see the Bishop of Rome confesseth himselfe a seruant sheweth himselfe obedient to the princes precept assuring vs by plaine words and agâ—eeable deeds that this humility proceeded not froÌ„ any iesting humor or fained submission but from the singlenes of his hart in respect of his bounden duty which auerreth our assertion clearly conuinceth that the Princes authoritie was then superiour to the Popes euen in causes Ecclesiasticall which you defend to be no way pertinent to the ciuill magistrate I wil end with Leo the 4. the selfsame that first submitted himself to Lodouik the father after coÌ„firmed his obedience to Lotharius the son in these words As touching the chapters imperiall preceps of your Highnes the Princes your predecessors irrefragablely to be kept obeied as much as in vs did or dothly we by al meanes professe that we wil by Christes helpe now and for euer obserue the same if any man hath or shall informe otherwise your Maiestie may right well assure your selfe it is an vntrue tale The chapters of Charles Lodouike and Lotharius for persons and causes Ecclesiastical I repeated before to those the Bishop of Rome eight hundred and fiftie yeares after Christ promiseth and sweareth not onely present but also perpetuall obedience to the vtmost of his power without all contradiction It is easie to see which of these twaine was superiour hee that had power to make Lawes not he that was bound
as by the seede of her husbande Thou wast conceiued in that thou receiuedst the name of Christ and the Lorde to make his wisedome milke for vs came clothed with flesh vnto vs. Shee is a most true mother which openeth her bosome to all nations when they shall bee newe borne and offereth her teates when they are newe borne The teeth cheekes and lippes of this spouse wee vnderstande sayth Ambrose to bee the vertues of the soule Yea the Church is life and as Paul sayth the Pillour of trueth These speeches and others that might bee alleaged shewe the Church to bee resembled to a woman and trueth sayth life grace and such like giftes of Godâ— bee counted not onely the garments but euen the bowels and partes of the Church And therefore the name of the Church sometimes imployeth as well the thinges that bee in the Church as the persons that bee of the Church which was the third point that I noted Phi. These speeches bee figuratiue Theo. I did not seeke for the proprietie but the vse of the woord and yet in proper speach persons without these thinges are not the Church and in the very definition of the Church as well thinges as persons bee comprised Phi. In deede persons enduen with those giftes and graces of God that bee needefull for eternall life are properly the Church but thinges without Persons are not the Church Theo. I do not exclude Persons but include those thinges which cause the Persons to bee members of the Church Phi. I will not much impugne that Theo. Returne then to the woordes of Ambrose which occasioned me to make this distinction A good Emperour is not aboue the church Not aboue the Church vniuersal for that consisteth of men Angels aboue whom princes be not Neither aboue the Church militant in earth for that containeth all the faithfull of all ages and Countries ouer whom there can bee no Prince but onely Christ. Phi. And what For the Church dispersed through the Romane Empire in the time of S. Ambrose was the Prince aboue it or no Theo. You must here distinguish the thinges proposed in the Church from the Persons that were members of the Church The Persons both Laymen and Clerks by Gods lawe were the Princes subiects the thinges comprised in the Church and by God himselfe committed to the Church because they were Gods coulde bee subiect to the power and will of no mortall creature Pope nor Prince Phi. Say that againe Theo. In shorter termes the Prince was aboue the Persons in the Church but not aboue the thinges in the Church Phi. Aboue the Persons but not aboue the thinges in the Church What thinges meane you Theo. Those thinges which God commaundeth in his Church and requireth of his Church Phi. I vnderstande you not Theo. Understande you our sauiour when hee sayth Giue vnto God the things which bee Gods Phi. Hee meaneth as I take it faith deuotion holynes repentance patience obedience and such like christian dueties and vertues Theo. You say well these bee thinges which Princes haue no right to clayme nor power to rule They belong onely to God To these I adde the meanes whereby God worketh these thinges in his church to witte the woord and Sacraments ouer these thinges wee graunt Princes haue no power Phi. S. Ambrose sayth not ouer the Church Theo. That is not ouer the thinges which God hath setled in his church but ouer the Persons Princes haue power Phi. What a shift of descant that is Theo. Call you that a shift which I before confirmed and you confessed to bee true Phi. What did you confirme Theo. That Princes haue power by Gods appointment ouer al men I brought you Tertullian Chrysostome Iustinian Gregorie and Ambrose himself witnessing that Princes had power ouer al men S. Paul auoucheth the same Let euery soule be subiect to their power It is no shift it is trueth that our sauiour saith kings of nations beare rule ouer them that is ouer their subiects You must either take the names of Princes and Gouernours from them or els yeeld them Countries and people to be subiect vnder them Phi. I doe so Theo. Then Princes haue power ouer all men that is ouer all Persons Phi. Ouer all persons but not ouer the Church Theo. What doe you nowe but make the same distinction your selfe which before you refused at my handes Ouer all persons they haue power ouer the Church they haue not ergo the Church is not here taken for persons And it must needes be taken either for the persons or things for the persons it is not ergo for the thinges and so by your confession mine answere standeth good that Princes haue power ouer the persons but not ouer the things in the Church And so saith S. Ambrose Ea quae diuina imperatoriae potestati non esse subiecta The thinges that be Gods be not subiect to the Emperours power though the Emperour had power ouer all Persons as Ambrose himselfe affirmeth Phi. Shall S. Ambrose strike the stroke in this case Theo. The stroke is alreadie giuen by the sacred scriptures by the publike Lawes and auncient stories of the primatiue Church and yet in this point wee reiect not the iudgement of S. Ambrose Phi. S. Ambrose is cleane against your opinion that Princes should bee gouernours in causes ecclesiastical To the yonger Valentinian the Emperour thus he answereth Vexe not thy selfe so farre O Emperour to thinke that thy Emperiall right perteyneth to diuine thinges exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure For it is written Giue to Cesar that which is Cesars and to God that which belongeth vnto God The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest Againe the same holy Doctor When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishoppes Shall wee bend by flatterie so farre that forgetting the right of our Priesthood we shoulde yeelde vp to others that which God hath commended vnto vs And recounting the whole course of holy scriptures and all times past who can deny but that in the cause of faith in the cause of faith I say Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishoppes Theo. Omit the circumstances and causes that moued Ambrose thus to write which bee the wordes you take most hold of Phi. These Thy Emperiall right pertayneth not to diuine thinges The Palace for the Emperour but the Churches are for the Priest In a cause of faith Bishoppes haue iudged of Emperours and not Emperours of Bishops Theo. You helpe the matter forward with false translating and nypping the wordes and yet they proue nothing against vs. In steede of vt putes te in ea quae diuina sunt imperiale aliquod ius habere Do not think thy selfe to haue an Emperiall right ouer those things which bee Gods or ouer diuine thinges you say cunningly Do not thinke thy Emperiall right pertayneth to diuine thinges
cause I say of fayth Bishops are wont to iudge of Christian Emperours not Emperours of Bishoppes And where Valentinian required Ambrose to yeeld his Church depart whither hee woulde for yeelding his Church his answere was Nec mihi fas est tradere nec tibi accipere Imperator expedit Domum priuati nullo potes iure temerare domum dei existimas auferendam Allegatur imperatori licere omnia ipsius esse vniuersa Respondeo It is neither lawfull for mee to yeeld it nor expedient for you O Emperour to take it The house of a priuate man you can not by right inuade doe you thinke you may take away the house of God by violence It is alleaged the Emperour may do what hee will all things are his I answere Doe not burden your selfe O Emperour to thinke you haue any Emperiall right ouer those thinges which bee Gods Exalt not your selfe so high but if you will raigne long bee subiect to God Palaces pertayne to Emperours Churches to Priests The Church is Gods it ought not to be yeelded by mee to Cesar. The temple of God can not bee Cesars right I can not deliuer that which I receiued to keepe in Gods behalfe to heretiks Would God it were apparant to me that my church should not be deliuered to the Arrians I would willingly offer my self to the iudgement of your highnes Would God it were decreed that no Arrian should trouble my Churches and of my Person pronounce what sentence you will With my consent I will neuer forgoe my right if I bee compelled I haue no way to resist I can sorow I can weepe I can sigh teares are my weapons Priests haue only those defences by other meanes I neither ought nor can resist Flee forsake my church I vse not lest any thinke it done to auoyde some sorer punishment If my goods bee sought for take them if my body I will be ready Will you put me in Irons or lead me to death You shal do me a pleasure I wil not gard my self with multitudes of people I wil not flee to the altar to intreat for life but wil gladly be sacrificed for the altars of god Depart Ambrose would not thereby to saue himselfe leaue his Church to Arians the Emperour should banish him or els he would not forsake his flocke I could wish you had not sent me word to go whither I would I came euery day abroad I had no gard about me You should haue appointed me whither you would Now the rest of the Priests say to me there is no difference whether thou be content to relinquish or thy selfe yeelde vp the altar of Christ for when thou doest forsake it thou doest deliuer it If a strong hande remoue me from my Church my flesh may bee caried thence my minde shall not Betray my Church I cannot but fight I ought not These answeres bee full of humilitie and as I thinke full of that affection and reuerence which a Bishoppe should beare to a prince Wee see the groundes that Ambrose stood on resolued rather to suffer any death than by his consent or departure to betray the Church of Christ into the handes of Auxentius the Arrian His meaning was not with violence to resist or with pride to despise the yong prince but either to die with his flocke or at least to bee remoued from his flocke by the princes power without his own cōsent because it were sinne in him to resigne or leaue the house of God as a pray for heretikes vnlesse he were thereunto compelled and forced against his will Phi. I thereby gather that Princes may not meddle with Churches without the Bishoppes assent Theo. You may thereby well collect that Bishoppes were better to giue their lyues than yeelde their churches for Christ to bee blasphemed in except they bee constrained Phi. The Bishoppe refused though the Prince commanded Theo. Hee refused to put his consent to the Princes will but hee resisted not the Princes power Phi. No thankes in that hee could not Theo. Yes great thankes in that hee would not when all the citizens of Millan tooke part with him and the souldiers denyed to wayte on the Emperour to any other church but onely to that where he was and greater obedience in that hee confessed he should not Aliter nec debeo nec possum resistere otherwise than by teares and sighes I neyther ought nor can resist and likewise hee commended the people for saying Regamus Auguste non pugnamus wee make request O Soueraigne wee make no tumult So that Ambrose in these wordes which you bring doth not generally dislike that Princes should meddle with religion or make Lawes for Christ but first affirmeth which wee confesse that Princes be no iudges of faith and next auoucheth that his refusall to deliuer his Church to the handes of Arrians was no stubburnnes against the Prince but obedience to God whose house it was and that he could not consent to betray the same to Gods enemies but hee should highly displease and offend God in so doing By this you may proue that wee must obey God before man and that al Pastours ought rather to giue their liues than their consents that heretikes shoulde inuade their flockes but against the Princes authoritie to commaund for trueth and punish error by the wordes or deedes of Ambrose for ought that I see you can conclude nothing Phi. Hee reporteth and commendeth the wordes of Valentinian the elder the father of this yong Valentinian Non est meum iudicare inter episcopos It is not for me to iudge among Bishops Theo. He gaue the yong Prince to vnderstand what a weightie matter it was To sit iudge betweene Bishoppes in cases of fayth and not among Bishoppes as you translate it in that his father a man of ripe yeres great wisedome and good experience refused this as a burden too heauie for him And what if the question betwixt the christians and Arrians were so intricate that Valentinian durst not take vpon him to discusse or determine the same is that any reason to proue that princes may not establish trueth and abolish falshood by their publike Lawes Phi. Was that the matter wherein Valentinian refused to bee iudge betweene the Bishoppes Theo. Euen that if you dare beleeue the storie of the Church For The Bishops of Hellespontus and Bithinia sayth Sozomene and as many as professed the sonne of God to be of the same substance with his father sent Hypatianus in a legacie to Valentinian the Emperour to request him that he would permit them to meete in a Councell to correct the Doctrine which trobled the Church When Hypatianus came to him declared the petition of the Bishops Valentinian aswered For me that am a Lay man I think it not lawful to search curiously such deepe matters let the priests that haue charge of these things meete where they like best among themselues This fearefulnes of Valentinian
euident that the christian Emperours did and might dispose both of Bishops and Churches therfore Ambrose could not be of that mind that princes by their lawes might not put Bishops from their Churches without their consents but hee brought this as a reason why the Prince at his pleasure without lawe might not commaund and himselfe though the Prince commanded might not consent Phi. You shift off S. Ambrose but Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius wil not be so shifted Of Constantius the Arrian Emperour S. Athanasius saith What hath he left for Antichrist for yet againe in place of Ecclesiasticall cognition hee hath appointed his palace the iudiciall seate of such causes made him selfe the chiefe iudge arbiter of our controuersies And who seeing him to make him selfe the ruler of Bishops and president of spiritual iudgements would not iustly deeme him to bee that very abomination of desolation foretold by Daniel And in an other place of the same work When was it euer heard since the beginning that the Churches iudgement did depend of the Emperours authoritie Or who euer accepted that for lawfull iudgement The renoumed Osius writeth to the same Emperour Medle not O Emperour in causes ecclesiasticall nor do thou coÌ„mand vs in this kinde but leaue such thinges to vs rather God hath giuen thee the Empire but to vs the church At the same time to the same Emperour thus saith Leontius the Martyr I maruel that thy vocation being for other things thou medlest with these matters Thy charge is of ciuil Martiall affaires only and yet thou wilt needes be president of ccclesiastical causes S. Hilarie also to the same Emperour writeth thus We beseech thy clemencie to prouide that charge to be giuen to all iudges of Prouinces that hereafter they presume not nor vsurpe the hearing of Ecclesiasticall causes Theo. You do well to put them together they all spake of one man ment one matter reprouing Constantius the Arian Emperour and that worthily for his tyrannous and violent oppressing the Church of Christ against al trueth and reason Phi. You would faine giue these fathers the slip as though Constantius were reproued by them not for intermedling with causes ecclesiasticall but for his iniurious and outragious ouerruling those matters what a mockerie that were Theo. Mocke not your selues and of our answere let the world iudge Phi. What is it Theo. We say these fathers did not reproue that in Constantius which the whole Church of Christ before them and after them for eight hundered yeres and vpward obeyed embraced and honoured in her Christian Catholike princes namely Constantine Gratian Theodosius Honorius Martian Iustinian Charles Lodouike Lotharius and others Phi. Who saith they did Theo. Doe you graunt they did not Phi. What if we doe Theo. Speake expresly whether you graunt it or no. Phi. We graunt they did not Theo. Ergo these places of Athanasius Osius Leontius and Hilarius doe not impugne that which we defend but only traduce Constantius for his wilful and headie subuerting the faith and infringing the Canons without all regard of trueth or equitie They refute not his authority to commaund for trueth and punish error which other Princes had and vsed with the contentation and commendation of all good men but they dissuade him from the tyranny which hee shewed in confounding both the doctrine and discipline of the church to serue his humor and wrecke his anger on those that would not yeeld to his heresie Phi. You may not scape so we must haue a direct answer to the words which we bring Theo. I neede not answere them till you vrge them Phi. As for vrging that shall not want Theo. If I faile in answering take you the aduantage Phi. Be sure I will First then Constantius was reproued by S. Athanasius for appointing his Palace to bee the tribunal seat of ecclesiastical causes and making himselfe the chiefe iudge and arbiter of those controuersies Theo. We do not make Princes chiefe iudges and arbiters of ecclesiasticall controuersies Ergo these wordes of Athanasius disproue not our assertion Phi. Do you not make them Rulers of Bishops and presidents of spiritual iudgements which is that very abhomination of desolation foretold by Daniel Theo. Doe not you purposely clippe the text to drawe the words from their right meaning to your malicious intent which is a ready way to deface the trueth and vphould the kingdome of Antichrist For where the words are Quis videns eum in decerneÌ„do PrincipeÌ„ se facere EpiscoporuÌ„ praesidere iudicijs ecclesiasticis non merito dicat c. who seeing him to make himselfe the ruler of Bishops and the ringleader of ecclesiastical iudgements in decernendo what they shall determine may not iustly pronounce him to be that abomination of desolation which Daniel foretold you strike out cleane in decernendo In iudgeing or determining and would haue it a note of Antichrist to be a ruler of Bishops Againe where The vnderstanding of that which spoken must bee fet from the causes that moued meÌ„ to speake as Hilarie wel admonisheth you let passe al that Athanasius hath said in that long epistle for the confirmation of this sentence and explication of himselfe and â—â—ll out a word or two that may bee diuersly taken and thinke with a phrase of speach both doubtfull and generall to surprise a settled and certaine trueth Princes should not be rulers of Bishops if by this you meane that Princes shoulde not bee superiour magistrates to commaunde Bishops that which is good and forbid them that which is euill yea to punish them as well for ecclesiasticall as cyuill disorders Athanasius was neuer of that mynde his owne wordes expounding S. Pauls Epistle to the Romanes if those be his woorkes that carie his name are cleare to the contrarie Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers He teacheth al men sayth Athanasius whether it bee Priest Monke or Apostle to submit themselues to princes or rulers And speaking of himselfe when hee was commaunded to conferre with Arius not the first and famous heretike but an other of that name and tyme concerning matters of fayth Who sayth he is so besides his wittes that hee dare refuse the Princes precept His deedes are as manifest for when the Councel of Tyrus would haue proceeded against him for his crimes and causes ecclesiastical the Cotholike Bishoppes of Egypt that tooke part with him made their appeale to the Prince as I shewed you before and Athanasius in person fled to Constantine and desired the Synode to bee sent for and his cause to bee hearde before the Emperour What Athanasius liked in himselfe he might not mislike in others what hee thought to bee lawfull in the father hee could not thinke vnlawfull in the sonne hee doeth not now refell that in woordes which hee before approued in deedes you must so conster his sayings as they may stand with his doings or
Ecclesiastical causes Theo. Proofes go very low with you when you fal from Princes to inferiour iudges yet mistake your text For Hilarie beseecheth nothing of CoÌ„stantius in that place but that the iudges of euerie Prouince should forbear medling in matters of religioÌ„ with tortures violeÌ„ce The whole book the words before the next part of the same sentence ioyned to this which you bring with a coniunction copulatiue confirme that to bee the true meaning of Hilarie This is the right order of the place We beseech not only with words but also with teares that the catholike churches be no longer oppressed with greeuous iniuries sustain intolerable persecutions coÌ„tumelies that which is shameful eueÌ„ of our brethren Let your clemency prouide appoint that all iudges euery where to whom prouinces are committed which ought to take care charge of commonwealth matters onely refrain from medling with religion Neither let them presume vsurp think they may enter into clergymens causes force vexe innocent men with diuerse afflictions threats violence terrours Your singular admirable wisedome perceiueth it is not seemely it ought not to be that men should be forced coÌ„pelled against their wils harts to yeeld addict themselues through violent oppressioÌ„ to such as cease not to sow the corrupt seeds of false doctrine This was the medling with clergie mens causes that Hilarie ment and which he would haue temporall iudges restrained from and yet were his meaning neuer so generall he required nothing but that which Constantine the father of Constantius had by his publike lawes ordained al christian Princes haue since obserued to wit that Ecclesiasticall persons should be conuented before ecclesiasticall iudges For so Constantine decreed CoÌ„mitting iudgemeÌ„t iurisdiction ouer clearks to Bishops Valentinian the elder would haue priests to iudge of priests Yea Iustinian excludeth all secular iudges from hearing the causes of clergie men except it were for ciuill offences If the crime be ecclesiasticall needing ecclesiasticall reformation punishment let the Bishop determine the same the iudges of the Prouince no way intermedling for we wil not haue temporall iudges enter into such matters where as such faults must be examined ecclesiastically by the sacred and diuine rules and Canons which our lawes take no scorne to follow And though he bar ciuill iudges from the hearing of such causes yet doth not exempt clergie men Bishops nor others from the obedience of his ecclesiastical lawes as the wordes import that bee next to these Omnibus quae iam a nobis sancita sunt siue super sanctiss ecclesus siue super Deo amabilibus Episcopis siue super clericis siue super monachis propriam virtutem habentibus All thinges which we haue already decreed concerning the most holie churches and blessed Bishops and touching clerkes and monks standing in their ful force Hee quiteth clergie men from temporall barres but he bindeth both them and their iudges to the tenor of his ecclesiasticall lawes as well in their Synods as in their Consistories as appeareth at large by his 123. constitution so that this place of Hilarie might well haue been spared saue onely to make vp your tale Phi. Is this your opinion that Princes themselues may lawfully medle with Ecclesiasticall causes and persons though their inferiour iudges may not Theo. We say princes exempted clergie men from secular iudges but not from themselues And that Princes from the beginning haue medled with persons causes Ecclesiasticall wee bring you not onely fiue authorities that shall bee neither maimed nor wrested as yours bee but fiue hundred actes examples lawes and edictes that shall bee strong and effectuall proofes for this purpose Phi. You talke of cost when you saie fiue hundered Theo. Wee coulde far passe that number if the number would moue you to leaue follie but I will go an other waie to worke with you What good king can you name before or after Christ for 1000. yeares but such as medled with Ecclesiasticall matters Phi. Nay what good king can you name that did Theo. They be sooner named than answered Nabuchodonosor in making a law that euery people nation language which spake any blasphemie against the God of Sidrac Misac and Abâ—dnago should bee drawen in peeces their houses made priuies did hee not medle with matters of Religion Phi. Nabuchodonosor was a tyrant The. But being corrected by the diuine miracle he made saith Augustine a religious and commendable law for the truth that who so blasphemed the God of Sidrac Misac and Abednago should with his house perish vtterly Darius vpon the sight of an other miracle wrote to all people nations and languages that dwelt in the world with these words I make a decree that in all the dominion of my kingdome men tremble and feare before the God of Daniell The king of Niniueth hearing of that which Ionas threatned from God proclaimed a fast and charged all men to put on sack-cloath and crie mightily to God and to turne from their euill wayes and the wickednesse that was in their handes I trust you dare not condemne the king of Niniueth for an intruder vpon ecclesiasticall causes whose seruice so well pleased God that he spared the king and his subiectes from destruction hanging ouer their heads and yet fasting praier and repentance be causes meere spirituall in which the king interposed his royall authoritie by the councell of his Nobles and not of Ionas who departed the citie grieued and angrie with God for pardoning the Niniuites vpon their conuersion The factes of these three kinges I alleadge the rather because S. Augustine grounded himselfe vpon them as proofes that christian kinges may medle with matters of Religion and as patternes for them to follow Ye kinges vnderstand be wise ye that iudge the earth serue the Lord with feare and reioyce before him with trembling How do kings serue the Lord in feare but by forbidding and punishing with a religious seueritie those thinges which are done against the precepts of God As the king of Niniueth serued by compelling the whole citie to appease the Lord. As Darius serued by giuing the Idole into Daniels power to bee broken and casting his enemies to the Lions As Nabuchodonosor serued by restraining all that were in his kingdom from blaspheming God with a terrible law And againe WheÌ„ Emperours professe the truth they commaunde for truth against error As Nabuchodonosor proposed an edict for truth against error that whosoeuer blasphemed the God of Sidrach Misaach and Abednago should be destroied and his house dispersed And you Donatistes will not that christian Emperours command any such thing against you If the commaundements of kinges haue nothing to do with the publishing of religion and prohibiting of sacrileges why then do you signe your selues at king Nabuchodosors edict commaunding such thinges For when you heare it doe
Theo. S. Paul expressely writeth of the Prince that He beareth the sword not without cause and is Gods minister to reuenge him that doth euil And our Sauiour seuerely forbiddeth Peter the rest of his Apostles to medle with the sword All that take the sword shall perish by the sworde and to them all You know that kinges of Nations raigne ouer theÌ„ and they that be great exercise authoritie with you it shall not be so The sword is but the signe of publike and Princely power and where the thing is not lawfull the signe is vnlawfull Since then the Lord interdicteth his Apostles and messengers all princely power it is euident the sword which is but a signe thereof is likewise interdicted them Thus much Bernard sticketh not to tell Pope Eugenius to his face It is the Lordes voice in the Gospell Kinges of Nations are Lordes ouer them and they that haue power on them are called gracious and the Lord inferreth you shall not be so It is a cleare case the Apostles are forbidden dominion Go thou then saith Bernard to the Pope and vsurpe if thou dare either an Apostleship if thou be a Prince or dominion if thou be Apostolik Thou art expressely forbidden one of them If thou wilt haue both thou shalt loose both The paterne of an Apostle is this dominion is interdicted seruice is inioyned Gird thy selfe with thy sworde the sworde of the spirit which is the word of God And this Pope Nicholas fairely confesseth The church of God hath no sword but the spirituall wherewith she quickeneth she killeth not Your owne law saith It is easily proued of Bishops and other clergimen whatsoeuer that they may not either by their owne authoritie or by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome take weapon in hand exercise the materiall sworde addeth this reason For euery man besides him and his authoritie which hath lawfull power and which as the Apostle saith beareth the sworde not without cause to whom euerie soule ought to bee subiect euery man I say that without this authoritie taketh the sword shall perish with the sword He that beareth the sword may lawfully put malefactors to death and wage warre with his enimies when neede so requireth which Bishops may not doe The weapons of our warfare are not carnall saith S. Paul Quid Episcopis cum bello What haue Bishops to do with batle saith Athanasius Ambrose Pugnare non debeo I ought not to fight If they may not fight much lesse kil if they may do neither they can not beare the sword which is appointed by God receiued of men to doe both The words of our Sauior are cleare with vs for the negatiue My kingdom saith he is not of this world If then your Priests Prelats Popes wil be the seruants of Christ they must chaleÌ„ge no worldly kingdom as froÌ„ him or in his name The seruant is not aboue his master If the master with his own mouth haue denied it the seruaÌ„ts may not affirm it or vsurp it The souldiers of Christ must not intangle them-selues with secular affaires much lesse make themselues Lords and iudges of earthly matters which office properly belongeth to the sworde and must be sustained of all those that beare the sword The Popes themselues before their power and pride grew so great were of this opinion with vs. When the truth which is Christ was once come after that saith Pope Nicolas neither did the Emperour take vppon him the Bishops right nor the Bishop vsurpe the Emperours name because the same mediatour of God and man the man Christ Iesus distinguisheth the offices of ech power with proper actions and different dignities to this end that the Bishop which is a souldier vnto God shoulde not intangle and snare himselfe with wordly affaires and againe the Prince which is occupied in earthly matters should not be Ruler of diuine things The very same text word for word your Decrees make Cyprian write to Iulian the Emperour if those be Cyprians wordes and not rather an impudent forgerie in his name For how could Cyprian that died vnder Valerian 260. after Christ write to Iulian that began his raigne 360. after Christ But such proppes are fittest to bolster vp your kingdom of darkenesse and error Sure it is which the wordes of our Sauiour apparantly proue that all the Disciples and Apostles of Christ are straitly charged not to medle with princely Scepters and swordes and therefore out of all question only Princes beare the sworde within their owne Realmes and dominions for so much as that honour and power is expressely prohibited and interdicted by the Lord himselfe to all Preachers and Bishops Phi. This wee woulde haue graunted you with halfe these wordes Theo. And this wee woulde haue depende not on your grant which is fickle but on such proofes as we might make iust accouÌ„t of Phi. How then Theo. As the first is apparant that onely Princes haue the sword committed to their charge by Gods appointmeÌ„t so the next is as euident that the sword I meane the publike authoritie of Magistrats in Christian common-wealthes hath been may be and should be vsed for the receiuing establishing and deâ—ending of that which is good and prohibiting abolishing and punishing of that which is euill in all spirituall and ecclesiasticall thinges and causes as well as in temporall which the sacred Scriptures the auncient Fathers the Church Stories the lawes and examples of al ages and countries do sufficiently proue as you saw before Phi. This is not it that we stand on Theo. This is that we affirme stand you on what you lift Phi. If this be granted what will you conclude Theo. If this be proued you shall see what we conclude If it bee not shew where the defect is Phi. That onely Princes beare the sword within their own realms which may be and should bee vsed for the receiuing establishing and defending of the faith Cannons of the church all thinges incident or pertinent to the same and for prohibiting and punishing whatsoeuer is repugnant to either in this we finde no defect Let vs therefore see what you will infer The. First then the words of our oth that Her Highnes is the only gouernor of this realm bearing the sword as wel in al spiritual or ecclesiastical things causes as teÌ„poral be not only tolerable resonable but such by your own coÌ„fessioÌ„ as we may truly defend you can not iustly confute Next the absurdities which you bring against vs as if we deriued the spirituall power of preaching baptizing binding loosing imposing handes and offering prayers to God from the Princes Soueraigne right and title which we doe not all these absurdities I say bee mere follies grounded vpon the carelesse mistaking if not spitefull peruerting of our wordes Thirdly your defacing and imâ—â—ouing the Princes sworde and aduauncing and defending against
hee did but recâ—uer his own out of their handes for the which Blondus chargeth him with rebellion and periurie Cuspinian therefore a man of your Religion verie truely noteth him other Italian writers in this case for mere flatterers Hauing repeated the same fact that Vrspergensis before did testifie Thence sayth hee sprang the first occasion of enmitie betweene the Prince and the Pope Although the Italian writers doe say that Frederike the Emperour after the death of his mother Constantia which kept him in tune and would not suffer to growe to these passions did the worst hee coulde against Honorius the third Gregorie the ninth and Innocentius the fourth handled Rome which had nourced him vp as if she had beene his stepmother But those flatterers of the Bishop of Rome wil haue al thinges lawful for the Pope inuesting him with both swordes and making all Emperours but his seruauntes This was Frederikes wicked rebellion against Honorius that Blondus expresseth in so great wordes to winne his owne by force of armes out of their handes that inuaded him and to requite them with the like and such quarels can your holy father pick to Princes when he is disposed to spit his venyme against Princes Gregorie the nynth vpon lesse cause shewed more furie Hee did excommunicate Frederike the seconde for that hee staied his expedition against the Turke till hee had recouered his health and when the Prince sent his Embassadours to make faith thereof he would not so much as heare them or see them And after in the absence of the Prince whiles he was fighting against the Turke the Pope inuaded his Land and caused the souldiers that shoulde haue aided him against the Turke to be spoyled and stopped of their iourneie a fame to be spred that the Emperor was dead the Almanes that returned froÌ„ Ierusalem to be slaine least they shoulde notifie the Princes life and welfare Phi. These be horrible lies deuised by such as would haue the Pope in hatred with all men Theo. They bee true tales and truer than those which some of your side haue coigned to claw the Pope with Your own fellowes confesse as much as I say Phi. Germanes perhaps in fauor of their Emperors Th. If you refuse the Germanes of your own religion as welwillers to their Princes how shall we receiue your Italians that were more than partiall to their Popes Yet this aduantage we haue ouer you the elder and sincerer Stories euen of your Romish profession and deuotion make with vs in these matters Nauclerus discussing the causes of Frederikes excommunication repeating what Antoninus a Florentin writeth in the soothing of Gregories fact addeth But surely by the epistle of Gregorie which hee wrote to the king of France with this beginning Out of the Sea is the beast asceÌ„ded it is conuinced that Gregory at this time did not excoÌ„municate Frederike for these causes which Antoninus pretendeth but for that Frederik staied longer with his souldiers from succouring the holy land than the terme which he had vowed by oth and was enioyned by the Pope vnder the paine of his curse To the which the Emperor answered that he was vniustly excoÌ„municated for so much as he entred the iourney within the terme besides the death of the Lant-graue one of the chiefest that should aid him a dangerous sicknes constrained him to take laÌ„d again so by his euident infirmity ought to be excused Phi. The Emperor fained himselfe sicke that the Pope vnderstood by the letters of Bishops that were in his traine Theo. That was the Popes replie to salue his doings but why did he not voutsafe to heare or see the Archbishop of BrundusiuÌ„ others whom the Prince sent to make faith of his sicknes why did he not expect the Princes purgatioÌ„ by oth or otherwise that his excuse was not fained What seruant was euer so disdayned by his master if he were honest but his reasonable defence was heard And our holy father forsooth wil not expect no not admit the Emperour of Christendome to make faith of his corporall infirmitie Phi. We tell you he was not â—â—cke Theo. We tell you that was harde for you to know harder to proue You should haue called his messengers to their othes or haue sent some to feele his pulse if you had suspected him for a moicher In the meane time the worlde seeth the frantike pride of that wicked Pope who not only denied audience to the Archbishop other the kinges messengers would not so much as admit theÌ„ to his sight but condemned accursed the sick Emperor for not passing the seas to sight against the Turke And here see the right vaine of your Romish iustice Your holy father did hinder the prince secretly what he could by rebellions vprores froÌ„ going against the Turk yet did excommunicate him for not going Phi. Did the pope hinder him Theo. Look your own stories The yeare before which was 1226. The Lombards saith Nauclerus as it was thought at the suggestion of Honoriuâ— the Pope entred a league amoÌ„gst themselues with the cities nâ—ere adioyning against Frederike the 2. which continued many yeares by the name of the Lombards league a verie great annoiance to the Romane empire and a manifest impediment of the iourney to Ierusalem because the expedition which Frederike had promised to make into Syria was kept off a long time by this occasion Phi. This was but a thought Theo. The league was apparent the instigation was secrete This confederacie if the Pope had not fauored he should haue assisted the Emperor with his keyes cursinges which were euer ready against Princes but neuer against those that troubled them yet if you thinke the Pope was no dealer in this conspiracie read what Vrspergensis writeth of them the next yeare after his sicknes when the Prince was taking his voiage to Ierusalem In the yeare of our Lord 1228. The Emperor minding to accoÌ„plish his vow and appease the Pope sailed to the Land of Iurie and that yeare before his going he had indicted a generall meeting of his Princes at Rauenna from the which he was hindered by the messengers Legates of the Pope For they of Verona MillaÌ„ suffred none to passe through their coasts but spoiled the very souldiers that were to go against the Turk that as they affirmed by the authority of the Pope which alas is a shameful thing to speake of After Frederiks departure as if the former wronges had not bin spitefull enough the Pope taking occasion of the Emperours absence addressed a maine armie into Apulia and tooke the Emperours countries from him who was then in the seruice of Christ a most horrible thing to speake subdued them to his own vse hindered the souldiers that were going against the Turke the most he could from passing the Seas as wel in Apulia as Lombardy
not be possible for him and the Princes that succeeded him to represse the Popes insolencie which beganne to increase apace This was the true cause why Gregorie the 9. set himselfe against Frederike the second after his first absolution which cost so many thousands what soeuer the Italian writers do imagine in hatred of Frederike whom they misliked as well for persuing the Pope as for spoyling and wasting their natiue Countrie Phi. Did hee not well deserue their hatred that ranged ouer all Italie with incredible cruelty sacked their cities filled euery towne village familie with mortal discord and dissention banished and murdered Bishoppes imprisoned the Cardinals Prelats as they were comming to the Councel so pursued inclosed the Pope that he died for very griefe of heart as Platina writeth Theo. Will you kindle a fire and then looke it should not burne What other fruits of warre coulde you expect but these or worse You made leagues to bereaue him of his right you caused his subiects to meete him in the field you accursed his person and depriued him of his Empire you came out in armes against him as you would against a Turk or an Infidel you did what you could to requite him his with like rage and violence when you could not be euen with him you thought it best to complaine of his crueltie But you loose your labour For warres are iudged by their causes and not by their consequents If Frederikes cause were good as the persuite of his right demand of obedience within the Territories of his Empire could not be euil thē your rebellions confederatiōs excōmunications depriuations such like actions to resist him defraud him or oppresse him were al wrongful wicked and his reuenge of your conspiracies treacheries though sharp and seuere was lawful as the cause stood needful Phi. No Prince euer delt so badlie with the Church of Rome as Frederike did Theo. No Prince was euer prouoked with halfe the iniuries with the which he was He was foure seueral times solemnly deposed by the bishops of Rome once by Honorius twise by Gregorie lastly by Innocentius the 4. his good friend whiles he was a Cardinal but his capital enimie when hee came to bee Pope Phi. It skilleth not how often it was done so long as it was done for causes vrgent important Theo. If the Pope had any such power as he hath not the causes must be iust and true which these were not Phi. Yes that they were And though the rest did not so plainely expresse thē which maketh you to carp at them yet Innocentius the 4. layeth his downe in writing which are extant to this day Theo. You say trueth The censure of Innocentius against Frederike the second is extant in your Decretals and foure causes of his deposition there remembred Phi. And those no lesse than periurie sacrilege heresie iniurie and oppression of the Church of Rome The. If it be enough for you to obiect what you list you may soone condemne whom you please We heare your holy father in his magnificence charge the Emperour with these foure things but I winne it woulde trouble him or you to prooue them Hee committed periurie the Pope sayth in his iudiciall sentence by rashly breaking the peace that was made betweene the Church and the Empire If the trueth were well tried this periurie lighteth on the Pope and not on the Prince For Howe coulde the Popes Legates be in the field against the Prince to assist his rebels and not breake the peace that was made betweene the Church and the Empire Is the Popes power so infinite that he can make right in the Prince to be periurie and warre in him-selfe to bee peace The taking and deteyning of Cardinals and Prelates was the sacrilege which in this place is obiected to the Prince but when you proue that Prelats and Cardinals be no subiectes and that they may lawfully take armes against Princes and yet no Prince must lay handes on them then you may chaunce to haue an action of wrongful detynue against the Emperour but not of sacrilege It is a point of your popish pride to make it sacrilege for a lawfull magistrate to restraine your parish Priestes of Rome from their seditious intens practises What are your Cardinals by Gods Law more than other Clergie men or why may not the Prince both represse them and punish them if they disturbe his state Phi. They were not his subiects Theo. Then were they his enemies since they came armed and presumed with their shippes to encounter his why should he not sease them as his prisoners Phi. They came to keepe a Councel being thereto called by the Popes authoritie Theo. To call Councels was the Emperours right and not the Popes and this conuenticle was called to oppresse the Emperour Why therefore might hee not preuent it and disperse it especially when straungers offered to passe his dominion by plain force without his leaue Heresie was the third crime for which the Pope suspected him Wherin if a mortall enemie may be both accursed and iudge and proceede vpon no better ground than suspition you may quickly condemne any man of heresie Princes haue warme offices if they shal lose their Crownes as soone as the Pope lysteth to suspect them of heresie The fourth cause is more foolish than any of the former The prince forsoothe forced his subiects in Sicilie to aguise him and obey him as their lawful prince notwithstanding the Bishoppe of Rome had deposed him and the persons that would not hee banished and diuersly punished This in deede was not for your profite but this was nothing against his dutie Ph. He forced them to impugne the Church of Rome whose vassalles they were Theo. The Church of Rome had a yeerely pension out of Sicilie which is here specified more the Pope could not claim and that pensiō was first yeelded by those that vsurped the kingdome of Sicilie against the Empire For Roger of Normanie whē Lotharius the Emperor had chased him out of Apulia Campania taken those countries from him intended the like for Calabria Sicilie but that he was called away by suddain occasions died before he could returne grew to a secret compact with the bishop of Rome to hold the kingdome of Sicilie which the Emperour claymed as from the Church of Rome by a yeerely recognisance After the death of Lotharius Conradus the next Emperour was so troubled first with rebellion at home then with an expedition into Syria that he had no leasure to thinke of Sicilie Against Frederike the first who succeeded Conrade in the Empire did William of Sicilie nephew to this Roger for his sonne raigned not long conspire with the cities of Lombardie and the Bishoppe of Rome to keepe the Germane Emperour aloofe from Italie and so long they striued hauing
as soone as the Pope by his letters willed them Theo. The one halfe of the electours were Bishops that neither durst nor would abide the Popes furie in the other halfe it was easie to finde one that would be seduced displeased or some way corrupted to go to the choice of a new but that the elect of theirs was slaine the same yere in the siege of Vlme William of Holland that was choseÌ„ next after him had as short a dispatche by those that tooke part with Fredericke And had you not beene more actiue with your poisons than lucklie with your elections Fredericke had sped them faster than you had named them Phi. His own bastard stisled him Theo. But his Antagonists first drenched him so Cuspinian sayth The Popes hatred against the Prince ceased not whom he night and day deuised how to destroy after the conspiracie of Theobaldus Franciscus Gulielmus of San Seuerine and Pandulphus was detected who coÌ„fessed they were set on by the Pope as Peter de Vines witnesseth in his second booke tenth thirtieth epistle Yet at last the prince could not be so watchful but when he returned to Apulia hee was poysoned And lying very sicke of the potion which he tooke and beginning at length to recouer he was stifled of Manfrede his base sonne with a pillow as he lay in his bed Thus you made away that worthie Emperour Frederike the second and these bee the weapons of your Romish warfare against Princes excommunications rebellions poysons Phi. You raiâ—e without all reason Theo. I speake no more than trueth Your owne examples shall iustifie the same Omitte Henry the seuenth called Henrie of Lucenburg whome a Dominican Frier poysoned in the chalice Lodouike of Bauaria and king Iohn of this lande were they not thus persued and thus dispatched Beginne with Lodouike the fourth What cause had Iohn the 22. to curse and banne him and to condemne him for an heretike Phi. Platina telleth you he called himselfe Emperour without the authoritie of the See of Rome and ayded the deputies of Italie to get the citie of Millan and to be Lords ouer it Theo. Two shamefull sinnes I assure you He had foure voyces when he was first chosen in contentioÌ„ with Frederike of Austria Auentinus saith he had fiue after in the field he tooke the other elect prisoner and so ended the strife why then should he not take himselfe to be lawful Emperour Phi. The fourth voice which did the deede was cunningly stollen For where the Marquesse of Brandenburge then absent wrate his letters for Frederike his name was rased out and Lodouikes conuaied in Theo. Sir by your leaue that is a legend The marquesse of Brandenburge sent his substitute with a general coÌ„mission to choose as hee sawe cause though as some said his meaning were that Frederike should haue his voyce and that instruction hee had giuen priuatly to the partie that was sent who deceiued his expectation and named Lodouike The second obiection is more absurd For Lodouike aided those that stoode for the safetie of the Empire against the Popes incourses practises And that since he was chosen Emperour in honour and equitie he was bound to do Phi. He ayded them against the Church Theo. The Church of Christ hath nought to do with the warlike wilful tumults of Popes Phi. He made a new Pope against Iohn the 22. and set him vp as an Idole in Peters chaire Theo. The Pope before that had done the worst he could against Lodouike openly excoÌ„municating him and all his fauourers and appointing him three monethes to renounce the election to the Empire that was made of him and come personally to excuse himselfe of his fact in giuing ayde to heretiques schismatikes and such as were rebels against the Church He also depriued al Clergie men that yeelded the Prince any counsell helpe or fauour And when Lodouike appeared not the Pope accursed him and condemned him of heresie These be the sober and graue proceedings of your holy father which he and his flatterers called the defence and exaltation of the church But the sounder and sincerer of his owne Canonists and schoolemen abhorred as the confusion and desolation of all Godlines Hermannus then lyuing sayth These proceedings against Lodouike were curiously obserued by some but very many reputed them litle worth because as men said they were examined by the Doctours of both Lawes pronounced by them to bee vtterly voyde Yea many famous diuines well commended for their learning and life concluded the Pope to bee an heretike for certaine errors which hee coldly recanted at the houre of his death and Benedictus his successor is reported to haue publikely condemned those erronious opinions Phi. Nothing is so well done that all men like it Theo. It must needes bee euill that so many of your owne side mislike yea which the Pope that came next most of all others misliked For when the kinges of Fraunce and Apulia by their Legates defaced the person of Lodouike and rehearsed what thinges hee did against the Church the Pope replied nay wee did against him Hee would haue come to the feete of my predecessor if hee might haue beene receiued to fauour and that he did hee did it prouoked The Prelates and Princes of Germanie being assembled at Franckforde with their common consent reiected all the Popes iudicial processe against this Emperour as wholy voide and of no validitie the Prince declaring so much by his Imperial decree By the counsell and consent of all the prelats princes of Alemannie assembled at our towne of Francford wee denounce determine these processes of Pope Iohn against vs to bee none in Law and of no strength or force And wee straitly charge and commaund all and euery within the limittes of our Empire of what condition state soeuer that no singular person nor societie presume to obserue the sayde sentences of excommunication and interdiction Where also you may see the protestations and allegations of that Prince against the doings of Pope Iohn taken out of the groundes of your owne Canons and the very same that are defended of vs at this day as warrantable by the sacred Scriptures and auncient order of Christes Church namely these The Prince hath his sword or dominion not from the Pope but only from God The sacred Canons and the Church of Christ prohibite and doe not graunt to the Pope the right of the Empire and power in temporall things The sentence is ipso iure none which is erroneous as when it commandeth the subiect not to obey his superiour or prescribeth any thing against God or the Scripture But it is manifest that Pope Iohn hath coÌ„maunded that our subiectes shall not obey vs to whome all that are in our Empire ought to yeeld alleagance and reuerence by the Lawes of God and man This
conscience towards God that is chiefly for religion indure grief and suffer wrong vndeserued If then Peter whom you make the Pillor of your Popedome neither would nor could depriue a poore crafts-man though an infidell or an heretike of his seruaunt or prentize what right can your holy Father now haue to depriue Princes of their crownes for those or any other causes and to absolue their subiectes from all obedience though they woulde yeeld it and haue sworne it That Parentes should loose the regiment and authority which by nature law they haue ouer their children is a late Popes decree which we litle regard not found in the extrauagants as you quote it Cap. â—in but in the Decretals of Sixtus lib. 5. de haereticis cap. 2. and were it to bee founde in ancient imperiall Lawes that heretikes should not bring vp their children for feare of infecting them which we greatly mislike not yet no Law Gods nor mans doth licence the sonne to dishonour relinquish forsweare and murder his father though a Turke or a Saracene as you teach subiectes to vse their Princes Phi. Thus much may as we trust suffice with all reasonable indifferent persons for defence of our brethren Theo. Thus much sufficeth to conuince you of that wherewith you were charged that is with liking labouring perswading and expecting the depriuation and destruction of your naturall and lawfull Soueraigne And since the foundation of your doinges hath neither warrant in the worde of God nor example in the church of Christ for a thowsande yeares as we trust the reader by this time perceiueth but onely dependeth on the late violent and wicked treacheries of Popes swelling with earthly pride and sauoring of filthy gaine who for the readier atchiuing of their interprise began with cursing alwayes ended in sowing seditions menaging rebellions kindling warres allowing periuries vpholding treasons and shaking the frame of the earth with horrible tumults I hope no Christian subiect wil be so vnwise as to beleeue you or so wicked as to follow you seeing you pretend religion defend rebellion come now to the publike patrocination of that which al this while you secretly cloked with cunning and suttle euasions knowing that God is the ordainer of Princes and will be the reuenger of all that presume to displace them or resist theÌ„ he hauing expresly commanded them to be serued obeyed and honoured Phi. It shall not be amisse perhaps to set downe the iudgement and practize of Protestantes in this very case which though it weigh litle or nothing with vs as being altogither both done and spoken of seditious and partiall affection to their heresie and against the lawfull Magistrate of God yet you seeing your own masters against you shall well perceiue that the resisting of Princes and Magistrates in cause of religion as also the subiectes taking armes for their defence in such a case is no way to be accounted treason but most lawfull according to your new Gospell Theo. As for the newnesse of our Gospell we say with Tertullian If Christ were euer and afore all the truth of his Gospell is as auncient and euerlasting Let them therefore looke to themselues to whome that is newe which in it selfe is olde Masters we haue none but Christ neither binde we our selues to the will of any but only of God And though by your owne confession in the next Section before we neede not busie our selues to defende euerie priuate mans writing or action concerning this matter yet least by deprauing the sense and abusing the words of some that neuer spake of the case in question betweene vs you should commend rebellion to the common people as allowed of either side yours and ours in cause of religion I will not be grieued to sitt their sayinges and to consider how far they make with you or against you Phi. First your grand-master Iohn Caluine putteth downe his oracle as a conclusion approued of your whole sect and confraternity in these wordes Abdicant se potestate terreni Principes dum insurgunt contra Deum immo indigni sunt qui censeantur in hominum numero Potius ergo conspuere oportet in illorum capita quam illis parere vbi sic proteruiunt vt velint spoliare Deum suo iure c. Which in english is thus Earthly Princes do bereaue themselues of al authoritie when they do erect themselues against God yea they are vnworthy to be accounted in the number of men and therefore wee must rather spit vppon their heades than obey them when they become so proude or peruerse that they will spoile God of his right and to the same place I further referre the Reader for his instruction Theo. Caluine is so well knowen to those that bee learned or wise for his great paines and good labours in the church of God that a few snarling Friers can not impeach his name though you neuer so wretchedly peruert his wordes Phi. Wee peruert them not we alleadge them as they lie Theo. Caluine in that place speaketh not one word of depriuing of Princes of their Crownes or resisting them with armes but onely sheweth that Daniell did rightly defend himself for not obeying the kinges wicked edict because it was ioyned with the manifest dishonor of God and restraint of his seruice which no king can prohibite By Abdicant se potestate he meaneth not they forfeite their Crownes but that they loose their power to commaunde in those thinges which in other cases that be lawfull they notwithstanding retaine And though the phrase to spit vpon their heades seeme somewhat harde yet the comparison so standing as he maketh it that is whether we were better vtterly to contemne their impious edictes and to defie such sinneful actes to their faces which is ment by spitting at them or else obey them spoyling God of his right and as it were pulling him out of heauen I say we must no way consent to yeelde any regard or reuerence to their idolatrous rage and pride against God This is all that Caluine in vehement wordes as his maner is vrgeth and this is farre from rebelling pursuing Princes with armes as you would haue his wordes to sound Phi. Let the Reader view the place see whether your construction be true or no. Theo. With a good will If you finde one word there of taking or vsing weapon or violence against the king I yeelde the whole For how could any such thing be grounded vpon Daniels example He submitted himselfe to bee cast to the Lions for the breach of the kinges commaundement And when he was mightily deliuered from their iawes by the hand of God all that he said to the king was against thee O king I did no euill meaning in that he serued GOD though the king by his Lawe had prohibited him so to doe for thirtie dayes Upon that Caluine saith Daniell coulde not obey the kinges edict
to be subiect or free from the kinges power The people likewise tooke Ieremy when hee had prophesied against them and said thou shalt die the death These places haue perswaded some and might leade Zuinglius to think that the people of Israell notwithstanding they called for a king yet reserued to themselues sufficient authority to ouerrule their king in those thinges which seemed expedient needfull for the publike welfare else God would not punish the people for the kings impietie which they must suffer might not redresse But yet in the 15. of Ieremie there is no such cause pretended their consent rather and zeale to please Manasses in his wickednesse their generall shrinking back from truth so lately professed vnder Ezechias for feare of his cruelty that did next succeede were the causes why God would punish both the king and the Realme For God neuer required of the people to displace their Prince that we can reade but onely that they should rather yeeld their liues than forsake his truth when any tyrant offered to deface his glory Phi. By Zuinglius decision the people may depose the Prince Theo. Zuinglius doth shew the causes for which magistrats may be iustly deplaced by those that haue authoritie to doe it but hee giueth no priuate man leaue to take the sword or offer violence to any Prince though he be a tyrant againe he speaketh of Rulers elected and limited not succeeding and absolute In which ease by the Lawes of sundrie Realmes much is permitted which otherwise may not bee presumed Phi. Nay hee speaketh of all sortes of Princes whether they bee made by succession election or vsurpation Theo. In that Article hee mentioneth them but hee neither resolueth any certainetie of them or alloweth any force to bee vsed against them Of hereditarie succession these be his wordes Mihi ergo compertum non est vnde hoc sit vt regna per successiones quasi per manus posteris tradantur I confesse I haue no skill in this how kingdomes should be deriued to posterity by succession as it were by haÌ„d If then a tyrant chosen by no man get a kingdom by inheritance which hath his foundation I know not how ferre hunc oportet sed quomodo imperitabit he must be indured but how shall he gouern His answere is Regnum aliquo sapiente administranduÌ„ erit the kingdom must be gouerned by some wise maÌ„ that shal assist him If a tyrant succeeding may not be repelled from his inheritance but suffered and assâ—sted then by this confession may he not be deposed And that no violence may be vsed to any Prince promoted by succession or election his words are plaine Disputing quo pacto mouendus sit officio by what means a magistrat may be displaced he saith Non est vt eum trucides nec vt belluÌ„ tumultis quis exitet quia in pace vocauit nos Deus Thou maist not kil him nor leauie warre or any tumult against him because God hath called vs in peace Phi. How then shal he be displaced since no Prince will yeeld his crown without force Theo. He answereth hic iam labor est this is the difficulty but his coÌ„ceit is that they which chose him should denouÌ„ce him vnfit to weare the crown if he yeeld it is wel if not they must offer their liues in so good a cause as to dy for iustice truth Phi. In faith that were folly first to prouoke a tyraÌ„t with depriuatioÌ„ after to lay down their necks to his furie The. Yet that is his resolution for he addeth Qui hoc ferre noÌ„ possunt ferant insolenteÌ„ tyrannuÌ„ They that caÌ„ not abide to die for the defence of iustice let theÌ„ tolerate the pride of the tyraÌ„t Phi. Are you of that minde Theo. You are not to seeke after al our reasoning what I thinke I haue meetely well repeated it And as for Zuinglius though he measure all Nations by the Germanes proportion other kingdomes to the Empire in that respect speake somwhat strangely yet he iustifieth no tumult against a tyrant much lesse rebellion against lawfull and absolute Princes which is the case at this instant in question betwixt vs. That touching rebellion now for succession as I muse at his wordes so I like not his iudgement when he saith he can not tell whence it is that kingdoms should go by successioÌ„ The Romane Empire it self from Constantine the great and before till the time of Otho the third that is 700. yeares and vpward went by successioÌ„ saue where the right lines failed or seditioÌ„ disturbed the heire The greatest kingdomes of the West partes as Fraunce England Spaine Scotland and others haue alwayes gone by succession since they were diuided from the Empire and neuer by election The like I might say almost of all prophane kingdoms and Monarchies where not election but successioÌ„ hath preuailed But omit them God him selfe gaue this to Dauid as a great blessing of the fruit of thy body will I set vpon thy throne this was it which was denied to Saull for reuenge of his disobedience Thou hast done foolishly for the Lord had now established thy kingdom vpon Israel for euer All the recompence which Iehu had for his zealous seruice was this Because thou hast deligently executed that which was right in mine eies therefore shall thy sonnes vnto the fourth generation sit on the throne of Israell So that succession in kingdoms hath not only the consent of al ages Nations but the manifest subscription of God himself that it is his speciall fauor blessing to continue the successions of godly Princes Phi. And what our english Protestantes write or thinke of this matter you shal well perceiue by their opinion and high approbation of Wiats rebellion in Queene Maries dayes wherof one of your chiefe Ministers called GoodmaÌ„ thus speaketh in his treatise intituled How superiour Magistrates ought to be obeyed Wiat did but his duty and it was the duty of all others that professe the Gospell to haue risen with him maintenance of the same His cause was iust and they all were traytours that tooke not part with him O noble Wyat thou art nowe with God and those worthy men that died for that happie interprise Theo. It is much that you measure the whole Realme by one mans mouth and more that you drawe the wordes which he spake from the meaning which he had to warrant your rebellions The partie which you name at the time wheÌ„ he wrote tooke Queene Mary for no lawful Prince which particular and false supposal beguiled him made him thinke the better of Wyats war but our question is of lawful Princes not of violent intruders And therefore Goodmans opinion which himselfe hath long since disliked is no way seruice-able for your seditions Ph. Hold you Queene Mary for an intruder Theo. Not I but he
a matter of more dependence than may bee ouer-ruled with a fewe piked and well couched tearmes You must therefore exactly and directly prooue the Popes authoritie to depose Princes which you shall neuer bee able to doe or else hee for attempting it is the man of sinne exalting him-selfe in the Church of GOD and you for defending and executing the same lacke not many degrees of high and haynous treason The carying of this in your owne heartes and reconciling of others within the realme that they might bee readie to receiue this impression at your mouthes when tyme should serue were the very causes why some of your fellowes tasted of her maiesties iust and prouoked indignation and if it be tyrannie for the Prince to put them to death that lay plottes to haue her crowne and her life and write bookes to auouch it lawful for themselues and all others so to doe when the Pope sayth the word then her highnes hath done you some wrong but if by diuine and humane recordes it bee damnable in the subiect to attempt or abet any such thing and most laudable in the Prince to reuenge the consenter and encourager as well as the doer then for religion hath none of your side beene martyred in England as your shamelesse eloquence would enforce onely some were executed for affirming publishing and furdering the Popes Antichristian power to rule realmes and depriue Princes which you call religion because you would plant it in the peoples hearts with lesse labour and more liking though in deede it be pestilent pride in him and a plaine contempt of God and the Prince in you that should obey Phi. M. Iohn Slade and M. Iohn Body two famous confessours were they not condemned to death in publike iudgement for confessing their fayth of the Popes spiritual soueraigntie and for denying the Queene to bee head of the Church of England or to haue any spirituall regiment and that twise at two diuers sessions a rare case in our countrie the later sentence being to refourme the former as we may gesse in such strange proceedings which they perceiued to bee erroneous and vnsufficient in their owne Lawes Theo. Promotions are rife at Rome you would not else so soone aduance two frowarde and rude companions for masters martyrs Their iudgement was twise giuen not as you peruersly yet after your manner interprete the later to reforme the former as erroneous and vnsufficient but for that they complayned they were drawen afore they were ware and against their wils to vtter speaches against the Princes sworde for which they were condemned the grace mercie of the Prince was such that her highnesse was content they should bee tried the seconde tyme to see whether those words were vnaduisedly and vnwillingly spoken as they pretended or of set mischiefe malice and warned by the Iudge to take good heede and looke wel about thē before they rashly offered themselues to the danger of the Lawes Where if they fell againe openly and lustily to auouch that the Pope was supreme head of the Church of England and consequently the Queene had no right to make lawes as shee had doone but was subiect to the Popes Decrees and censures which is the maine ground of all your rebellion and his presumption who besides you that are yoked in the same cause with them will say they died for religion and not rather for their wilful charging the Prince with vsurpation yeelding the Pope that dominion which hee claimeth ouer kingdomes and you would faine establish with your vntrue surmises Phi. The question of Peters keyes is it not a matter of meere religion Theo. If you draw Princes crownes and swordes within the limits of Peters keyes you leaue religion and hatch rebellion Phi. Yet is it a question whereof diuines do doubt Theo. You may doubt what you list to flatter the Pope but your doubting may not stoppe Princes from defending that which is their owne against the Popes vniust claime and vnlawfull force The Prince striueth not with the Pope neither for the dignitie which hee taketh aboue all Bishoppes nor for the power which hee seeketh to bind and loose sinnes in heauen though therein hee doeth the Church of Christ great wrong and oppresseth his brethren but onely for her right to commaund and punish within her own Realme in ecclesiasticall causes and crimes as well as in temporall which I haue largely prooued euery Prince may within his owne Dominion and for the wrong that her maiestie receiued when shee was depriued of her crowne by him that had no warrant from Christ to disquiet her state or dispose her crown These bee the pointes comprised in her highnes Lawes Against these if your rash and ill aduised brethren woulde runne headlong to their owne perdition when they were admonished by the magistrate to haue better regarde to their wordes they haue the iust rewarde of their vnfaythfull and disloyall heartes and my assertion is true that these two ignorant yet obstinate persons with some others which came not to any particular mention of the Popes bull against the Prince but generally stoode in defence of that power to be good and lawfull from whence the bull proceeded died in the same quarell with the rest that purposely promoted defended and assisted the bull and so can bee no witnesses of Christes trueth and glory which woulde needes cast away their liues for the Popes pride and tyrannie Phi. It is hard dealing to make such trifles treasons Theo. Call you those trifles when Princes shall lose their kingdomes and their people freely rebell and you defende the warres of their owne subiects against them to be iust and honourable by vertue of that power which you attribute to the Pope when you make him head of the Church Had you liued in Saint Augustines dayes you would haue sayde it had beene harder dealing that one word against the Christian Emperours although they were dead shoulde be counted treason Thou doest promise sayth Augustine to Petilian that thou wilt reckon many of our Emperours and iudges WHICH BY PERSECVTING YOV PERISHED and concealing the Emperours thou meanest two Iudges or Deputies Why didst thou not name the Emperours of our cōmunion were thou afraid to bee accused as guiltie OF TREASON where is your courage which feare not to kill your selues To say that Emperours PERISHED FOR PERSECVTING was Treason in his tyme In our age you thinke it much that reproching of Princes as tyrants and heretikes ayding the Pope with your perswasions absolutions rebellions to take their crownes from them should be punished or adiudged Treason Phi. There is no law so rigorous but your diuinitie wil serue you to defend it Theo. What is against your duetie to God and your Prince in that I am a diuine I may iustly debate what punishment the Prince will appoint for such offences as be committed against her neither you nor I haue to doe with it
persons for that is truely and properly catholike By this rule your erecting adoring of images in the church is not catholike For first it is prohibited by gods law where the text goeth against you the gloze caÌ„not helâ— you If there be no precept for it in the word of god in vaine do you seek in the church for the catholike sense and interpretation of that which is no where found in the Scriptures If it bee not Propheticall nor Apostolical it cannot be catholike nor ecclesiasticall Againe how hath this beene alwaies in the church which was first decreed 780. yeares after Christ It is too yong to bee catholike that began so late you must go neerer Christ his Apostles if you wil haue it catholike or ancient Thirdly al places persons did not admit the decrees of that couÌ„cell For besides Africa Asia the greater which neuer receiued them the churches of England France Germanie did contradict refute both their actions reasons And in Greece it selfe not long before a Synod of 330. Bishops at Constantinople condemned aswel the suffering as reuerencing of images Phi. The most part of this that you say is false the rest we litle regard so loÌ„g as we be sure the church of Rome stood fast with vs. Theo. Al that I said is true as for the church of Rome she can make nothing catholike That the church of England detested that 2. councell of Nice Roger Houeden that liued 400. yeares agoe witnesseth Charles the king of France sent ouer into England the Actes of a Synod sent him from Constantinople Where out alas are found many vnseemely things contrary to the true faith specially for that it is there confirmed with the general assent of all the East teachers to wit of 300. Bishops moe that images ought to be adored the which the church of God vtterly detesteth Against the which Albinus wrote an epistle maruelously grouÌ„ded on the autority of the diuine scriptures caried it with the said Synodical acts in the name of our english Bishops princes to the K. of France Charles two yeares after called a great Synod of the Bishops of Fraunce Italie and Germanie at Franckford where the 2. councell of Nice was reiected and refuted Phi. Nay the councell of Constantinople against images was there reuersed and explosed Theo. Your friendes haue done what they could to make that seeme likely and many of your stories run that way for life but the worst is the men that liued and wrate in that verie age doe marre your plaie Regino saith Pseudo synodus Graecorum quam pro adorandis imaginibus fecerant à Pontificibus reiecta est The false Synode of the Graecians which they made for defence of the worshipping of images was reiected by the Bishops assembled at Franckford vnder Charles Hincmarus Archbishop of Remes then lyuing when these thinges were in freshe memorie saieth thus of Charles his Councell The seuenth general councell so called by the Graecians in deed a wicked councell touching images which some would haue to be broken in peeces some to be worshipped was kept not long before my time by a number of Bishops gathered togither at Nice and sent to Rome which also the Bishop of Rome directed into France Wherfore in the raigne of Charls the great the Sea Apostolike willing it so to bee a generall Synode was kept in Germany by the conuocation of the said Emperour and there by the rule of the Scriptures doctrine of the fathers the false councel of the Graecians was confuted vtterly reiected Of whose confutation tâ—ere was a good big booke sent to Rome by certaine Bishops from Charles which in my yong yeares I read in the Palace Vrspergensis hath bin vnder the file of some monkish deprauer as many other writers fathers haue bin For in him you haue razed out the name of the citie of Nice put in CoÌ„stantinople to make men beleeue the Synod of FraÌ„ckford condemned not the 2. Nicene councel that setled adoration of images but an other of Constantinople that banished images Vrspergensis saieth The Synod which not long before was assembled vnder Irene Constantine her sonne in Constantinople called by them the seuenth generall councell was there in the councell of Franckford reiected by them all as void and not to be named the 7. or any thing else Here some foolish forgerer hath added these words in Constantinople whereas it is euident the councel vnder Irene and Constantine her sonne was kept at Nice not at Constantinople Hincmarus that liued in the time of Charles and read the booke it selfe of the Synode of FraÌ„ckford when it was first made saith the Bishops assembled in Germany by Charles vtterly reiected refuted the councel of Nice called the seuenth generall councell The very same words at Constantinople are in the actes of the councell of FraÌ„kford as LaureÌ„tius Surius saith though very falsly for though that I find in the booke it selfe contrary to the plaine words in many places and namely in the 4. booke 13. chapter where they are refelled from comparing themselues with the 1. Nicene councell because they were assembled in the same city so li. 4. ca. 24. But if the words had bin conueied in as they are not except Surius copie be framed by Surius himself to verifie his own saying what proofe is this that the Synod of Franckford neuer deâ—reed against adoration of Images but rather with it as that mouthie Frier obserueth where the reasons and authorities of the 2. Nicene councell for adoring images are truely and fully refuted throughout those foure bookes And his conclusion that wee haue forged those bookes conueied them into the Popes library where they ly written in auncient characters as the keeper of the Popes library confesseth is like the rest and not vnlike himselfe who careth not what he writeth so it serue his humour and helpe his cause For otherwise who that were master of himselfe would suppose it easier for vs to forge foure whole bookes in Charles name and to write them in auncient handes and thrust them into the Popes librarie and into many other churches and Abbaies and no man spie it than for you hauing the bookes so many hundreth yeares in your keeping to put in this one word Constantinople And if our lucke were so good to forge so neere the Popes nose and not be descried who forged Hinâ—marus Regino Houeden Vrspergensis Adon Auentine and others that testifie the Councell of Frankford refuted the false Synode which the Graecians kept Pro odorandis imaginibus For the adoring of images If you were so negligent as to suffer so many to be forged against you and laide in your libraries you not find it how iust cause haue wee to perswade our selues that you would winke with both eies when others should be corrupted to make for your
not I trust to seek of that which euery child with vs cā say Thou shalt make thee no grauen image nor the likenes of any thing that is in heauen aboue or the earth beneath or in the waters vnder the earth Thou shalt not bow down to them nor worship them Phi. Doth this precept touch the image of Christ Theo. It toucheth any thing made with handes that is worshipped be it the image of God of Christ or of whō you wil. Phi. No Sir it toucheth the images of false Gods but not of the true God for they be Idols that are nothing Theo. Wee speake not of the thinges them-selues but of their images made with handes A false God is an idole in the heart of man and so are all thinges in heauen and earth to the which wee giue any such ghostlie or bodilie honour as God hath prohibited Sainct Paul calleth the couetous man a worshipper of idols of others hee saieth whose God is their bellie teaching vs that whatsoeuer we loue serue or obey against the commaundement of God we make it our God by preferring it before the wil and precepts of the true God in that it is our god which of it selfe is not God it is an idoll the loue seruice and honour that is so yeelded to it is idolatrie by the lawe of god For this cause the bowing our knees and holding vp our hands to an image though it bee not all the honour we ow and yeeld to god yet is it such honor as he hath prohibited to be giuen to any thing made with handes and in that respect our aduised and determined doing it against his commaundement is idolatrie For his precept is resolute Thou shalt not make thee the likenes of any thing in heauen or earth thou shalt not bow thy selfe before them nor serue them Phi. This may not bee vnderstood of the image of the true God For if the images of Princes may be reuerenced idolatry not committed much more the image of God Theo. Earthly similitudes of your making may not controule the heauenly precepts of Gods owne giuing The images of Princes may not wel be despited or abused least it be taken as a signe of a malicious hart against the Prince but bowing the knee or lifting vp the hand to the image of a Prince is flat ineuitable idolatrie Phi. The image of God deserueth more honor thā the images of mē in respect of the person that is resembled The. You heard the plaine precept of God commaunding no such honor to bee giuen to any image made with handes no not to the image of himselfe Phi. I heare you so interprete but I heare not him so command Theo. You may when you wil the scripture in that point is very cleare Moses the reporter of the law from Gods owne mouth laying foorth the ground of the second precept saith The Lord spake vnto thee out of the midst of the fire and yee heard the voice of the words but sawe no similitude Take therefore good heede to your selues for you saw no image of God in the day that the Lord spake vnto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire that ye corrupt not your selues and make you a grauen image of God or likenes of any figure whether it be of male or female or of any beast that is on earth And so along pursuing the seuerall branches of the second commandement They saw no shape of God least they should make them any image of God contrary to that which hee had commaunded them By this precept Esaie proueth that God should not be figured To whome then will you liken God or what similitude will you set vp vnto him And sharply rebuking the people for not remembring that part of the law wherein they were charged to make no likenesse nor similitude vnto God he saith Know ye nothing Haue ye not heard it hath it not beene told you from the beginning Not meaning any secret or priuate instruction of man but the open written law of God which was then deliuered them when they first became the people of God So that aswell the writer as the interpreter of the law yeeld this to be the sense of the second precept that no similitude or likenes should be made vnto God because no such image cā resemble the brightnes of his glory but only demonstrate the basenesse of our fansie Phi. We talke not of making similitudes vnto God that be vnlike him but of worshipping those that be like him Theo. And since none can be made that is like him the bowing to any is not the honoring of him but the seruing of idols which he ahhorreth Againe the first part of this precept Thou shalt not make thee any grauen image nor the likenes of any thing directly concerning the shapes and images that any man would or could make vnto God as Moses and Esaie doe witnesse the rest of the same precept Thou shalt not bowe downe to them nor serue them must needes be referred to the selfesame similitudes and figures which before were prohibited to be made Thirdly if any grauen Image of God might be worshipped why might it not be made since it cannot be worshiped vntill it be made God therefore prohibiting it to be made instructeth vs that though it were made it should not be worshiped And to that end God himselfe protesteth My glorie will I not giue to an other nor my praise to grauen Images meaning no part of the honor and seruice that is due vnto him whether it bee spirituall as feare loue faith obedience praiers and thankes or corporall as bowing the knee lifting vp the hand burning incense and such like which are Idolatries when they are done to Images as wel as the former kindes of inward and Ghostly worship Phi. Idolatries they be when they be doone to the Images of false Gods which are Idols not otherwise Theo. False Gods by nature there are none We know saith the Apostle that an Idol is nothing in the world and that there is none other God but one and he is wholy trueth But the shape or figure made with hands to resemble the true God whatsoeuer it be is an Idoll prohibited by Gods Law as I haue proued and therefore bowing the knee or holding vp the hand to it is Idolatry condemned by that precept which I last repeated Thou shalt not bow thy selfe to them nor serue them Phi. What not to the Image of the true God Theo. The Image of the true God made with hands is a false God and no likenesse of his but a lewd imagination of yours set vp to feede your eyes with the contempt of his sacred wil dishonour of his holy name and open iniurie to his diuine nature For what resemblance hath a dead and dombe stocke shapened like a man to the glorious inuisible and infinite Maiestie of the liuing
Art Phi. You vnderstand vs not When wee giue diuine honour to the image in respect of Christ we giue it to Christ and not to the image Theo. God graunt you vnderstand your selues You first dishonour the Sonne of God by exhibiting the heauenly seruice that is due to him to an Image made with handes and then with a shift of wordes you thinke to delude him in telling that hee may not choose but like of your doinges because you ment it vnto him when you did it to a dumbe creature for his sake But awake out of your frensie God will not thus be mocked by your relations or intentions Hee is zealous of his honour he will not resigne it to any other and namely not to grauen or carued images If against his worde against his will against his truth and glorie you impart it to anie other or take vpon you to conueie it to him by creatures or images as if hee were not present in all places with might and maiesty to receiue the seruice that is done vnto him you not onely make new Gods but you reiect him as no GOD who alone is the true GOD and will be serued without mate or meane of your deuising Phi. Our Lord shewing what account he maketh of such as represent his person sayth In as much as you haue doone it to one of the least of these you haue doone it vnto me Theo. Did Christ speake that of images Phi. Noâ— but thereby you see it passeth â—â—to Christ whatsoeuer is done in his name or for his sake to others Theo. If you meane such charitable reliefe as Christ hath commaunded vs to yeeld to our brethren in respect of his will their neede and our dutie you say well wee haue for that the manifest precept and promise of our Sauiour accepting it as done to himselfe whatsoeuer is done to any of his brethren or seruauntes but if you leape from men to images from humane comfort to diuine honour you leape too farre to haue the sequele good Philand If diuine adoration may not bee giuen to Images yet humane reuerence may with-out anie daunger Theo. Religious honour may not and as for externall and ciuill reuerence whether that may bee giuen to images can bee no doubt of Doctrine nor point of fayth The one is impious to bee defended the other superfluous to bee discussed Philand So you giue them either wee care not Theophil If you flie from adoration to saluation and stande not on pietie but on ciuilitie then is it a question for Philosophers and not for Diuines and to bee decided rather in the Schooles than in the Churche neyther can any manne bee praysed or preiudiced for vsing or omitting that kinde of curtesie which neyther the Gospell nor good manners conuince to bee necessary Philand Shoulde wee not honour Christ and his Sainctes by all the meanes wee can Theophil Christ you must honour with all power and all your strength as being the Sonne of the liuing GOD but you may not fasten his honour to any Image or creature since hee is alwayes present to beholde and willing to receiue as well the religions submission of knees handes and eyes as the inwarde sighes and grones of the heart neither can you bestowe the least of these gestures on an image in your prayers without open and euident wrong to him to whome you shoulde yeeld them Phi. For adoring of images I am not so earnest as for hauing them in the Church that they may put vs in remembraunce of the bitter paines and death which it peased our Lord to suffer for our sakes and that I am sure is catholike though adoration be not Theo. We doe not gainesay the remembring or honouring the death and bloodshedding of our Sauiour hee is not onely dull but wicked that intermitteth either but this is the doubt betwixt vs whether wee shoulde content our selues with such meanes as hee hath deuised for vs and commended vnto vs thereby dayly to renue the memorie of our redemption or else inuent others of our owne heades fitte perhappes to prouoke vs to a naturall and humane affection but not fitte to instruct our fayth The hearing of his worde and partaking of his mysteries were appointed by him to leade vs and vse vs to the continuall meditation of his death and passion a crucifixe was not hee knowing that images though they did intertaine the eies with some delight yet might they snare the soules of many simple and sillie persons and preferring the least seede of sounde faith beholding and adoring him in spirit and truth before all the dumbe shewes and imagery that mans wit could furnish to winne the eye and moue the heart with a carrâ—all kind of commiseration and pitie such as wee finde in our selues when wee beholde the tormentes and pangues of any miscreant or malefactour punished amongest vs. Phi. All meanes are good that bring vs in minde of his death Theo. By sight you may learn the maner of his death but neither the cause nor the fruits which are the chiefest thinges that the sonne of god would haue vs remember in his death and you very peruersely and wickedly keeping the people from those meanes which Christ ordained as the hearing of the word and right vse of the sacraments which you drowned in a strange tongue that the people vnderstood not set them to gaze on a Roode taught them to giue all possible honour both bodily and ghostly to that which they sawe with their eyes bearing them in hand it passed from the image to the originall that is from a dead and senselesse stocke to the glorious and euerlyuing Sonne of God which in effect was nothing else but to worship and serue the creature before the Creator which is blessed for euer Phi. You are now besides the matter We speake of hauing images for remeÌ„braunce not of adoring them for religion and that is catholike if this be not Theo. Since the hauing of images being neither deliuered nor allowed by Christ nor his Apostles is superfluous and the abusing of them is so daungerous and yet so frequent and often that in all ages and places it hath intrapped many Gentiles Iewes and Christians I see no reason why for a curious delight of the eyes which the Apostles neglected and the primatiue Church of Christ wanted we shoulde scandalize the ignorant and exercise the learned as for a necessarie point of catholike doctrine Phi. Had the Apostles and their scholers no images Theo. Had they thinke you Phi. Remember you not the image which Nicodemus that came to Christ by night made with his owne handes and left to Gamaliel S. Pauls master he to Iames and Iames to Simeon and Zacheus This report you shall finde written by Athanasius 1300. yeares since and besides that it is amongest his workes at this day it was repeated 800. yeares agoe in the second Nicene councell as
vt Deorum vestrorum partes forsitan adoratis Crosses wee neyther worship nor wish for you that dedicate woodden Gods you happily adore woodden crosses as partes of your Gods But what neede I farther refell that councell as not catholike which was presently reiected and pithily confuted by the Bishoppes and churches of the West whose labours are extant at this day brought to light by men of your owne religion and saued from the moothes which you ment should consume them Thither wee sende you there you shall finde both your adoration of images disclaimed as vncatholike and the reasons and authorities of your second Nicene councell throughly skanned and scattered almost 800. yeares before our time Phi. That booke we receiue not as thinking it to be rather some late forgerie of yours than a monument of that antiquitie Theo. If you receiue not the books that were safe in your own keeping and published by your neerest friends howe should we trust the corruptions that are framed to your purposes and no where fouÌ„d but in your own libraries Phi. Since you distrust our writteÌ„ records why do you not beleeue the faithful report of the church which is the pillour of truth can not be corrupted The. Nay since forgeries be so rise that no father is free from them so grosse that euery child may discerne theÌ„ why do not you beleeue the report of God himselfe the founder and builder of the church and that witnessed in his word of which there is no suspition and against the which there is no exception Phi. As though we did not Theo. Then for adoration of images which you defend shew what presideÌ„t you haue in the word of God Phi. We neede not Theo. We know you cannot Phi. And I reply that we neede not The. Doth it concerne the christian faith and Catholike religion which the godly must professe or no Phi. It doeth Theo. Then must you shew some authority for it in the sacred scriptures or else they must repel it as impious Phi. We haue it by tradition from the Apostles Theo. You would haue wrested so much out of S. Basill but that your cunning failed you Phi. From them we had it Theo. Wee say you had no such thing from them and further we adde that if it be a matter of doctrine beliefe as you make it you must haue it testified in their writinges and not concealed among their traditions Phi. No Sir we beleeue many thinges whereof this is one that are not written but were deliuered vs by secrete succession Theo. The greater is your sinne and the vnsounder is your Creede In matters of faith you should beleeue nothing but that which is expressely warranted by the scriptures And therefore in this and other points of your Romish deuotion now brought to triall if you want the foundation of true faith and religion in vaine do you seeke to make a shew of catholicisme with such patches pamslets as Monks Friers haue forged colored with the names of fathers The catholike church of Christ neuer receiued nor beleeued any point of faith vppon tradition without the Scriptures Phi. We haue to the contrary plaine Scriptures al the fathers most euident reasons that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing at all Theo. Wee knowe you can bragge but you haue neither Scripture father nor reason to impugne that which we affirme Phi. For traditions we haue Theo. Tradition is any thing that hath beene deliuered or taught by word or mouth or by writing touching the groundes of faith or circumstances and ceremonies of christian Religion And therefore when you muster the fathers to disproue the scriptures and to establish an vnwritten faith vnder the credit of traditions you corrupt the writers and abuse the readers Phi. How can we doe that when wee bring you the very words of the Authors themselues Theo. Hâ—w can you choose but doe it when you force the fathers to speake against themselues Phi. Do wee Theo. Your Rhemish translators perceiuing the weight of their whole cause to lie on this haue marshalled nine fathers in a ranke namely S. Chrysostom S. Basill S. Hierom S. Augustine S. Epiphanius S. Ireneus S. Tertullian S. Cyprian and Origen but to what purpose can you tell Phi. To proue that we must either beleeue traditions or nothing Theo. Beleeue them as articles of our faith or exercises of our profession Phi. Why make you that distinction Theo. Because the very same fathers that say traditions must bee receiued besides the Scriptures auouch likewise as I before haue shewed that no matter of faith or of any moment to saluation must be receiued or beleeued without scriptures Now choose whether you will graunt a flat contradiction in them or conclude with vs ergo the traditions which they meane bee no partes nor pointes of the christian faith And so these nine fathers on whose credits you thought to plant your late found faith hold nothing with you but rather against you Phi. How make you that appeare Theo. Uiew them once more Wee haue their plaine confession that all things necessary to saluation are comprised in the scriptures You produce them to witnes that your traditions bee not comprised in the scriptures Ergo by your own deponents we conclude that your traditioÌ„s be neither necessary to saluation nor points of the catholik faith without which we can not be saued Looke well to this issue they must either dissent from your religion or from themselues Phi. Your maior is not yet proued Theo. Yes with firm surer authorities than those be which you bring let the places be skanned which I before rehearsed the matter left to the iudgement of the reader Or if you be loath to looke so far back examine shortly thâ—se that follow The holy Scriptures inspired from heauen are sufficient for all instruction of truth sayth Athanasius The Gospell saith Chrysostom containeth al things whatsoeuer is requisite for saluation al that is fully laid downe in the Scriptures In the two Testaments sayth Cyril euery word or thing that pertaineth to God may be required discussed SufficieÌ„t to vs for saluatioÌ„ is the truth of Gods precepts saith Ambrose And Augustin There were chosen to be written such things as seemed to the holy ghost sufficient for the saluation of the faithfull Vincentius Lirinensis whoÌ„ you greatly boast of but without all cause agreeth with the rest that The Canon of the Scripture is perfect sufficient more thaÌ„ sufficient to al things And againe Not that saith he The canon alone is not sufficient for al things as it were taking great heed least he should seeme to deny the fulnes of the scriptures which you purposely impugne vnder a colour of catholicisme by his writings Now cite not only nine but nines kore fathers if you wil for traditions the more you stirre the worse you
as it is for the precept is not written though the causes and consequents may bee iustified by that which is written And this is not straunge with Saint Austen to call that an vnwritten Tradition which him-selfe confesseth may be warranted by the scriptures Phi. What haue wee here One and the same Tradition confessed by saint Augustine to bee both written and vnwritten Theoph. One and the same Tradition I say confessed to bee written and yet warranted by the Scriptures Phi. That were newes Theo. None at all Goe no farther than your second example of rebaptizing and you shall see it to be true S. Augustine calleth it an vnwritten Tradition or Custome of the church in many places Hee sayth expressely of it Quam consuetudinem credo ex Apostolica Traditione venientem sicut multa non inueniuntur in Literis eorum c. Which custome I think came from the apostles as many other things that are not found in their writings And againe of the very same Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt The Apostles in deede commaunded nothing in that case as also there bee many thinges which the whole Church obserueth though they be not found written Phi. That we knowe to be true neuer spend more time about it but let vs heare where S. Austen saith this Custome is also warranted by the scriptures Theo. You can not misse it if you read the very same bookes where the other is witnessed Now saith he lest I seeme to dispute this matter by humane reasons because the darkenes of this question draue great men and men endued with great charitie the bishops that were in former ages of the church before the schisme of Donatus to doubt and striue but without breach of vnitie ex euangelio profero certa Documenta quibus Domino adiuuante demonstro Out of the Gospel I bring sure groundes by Gods helpe to make proofe thereof And hauing disputed it a while We follow that saith he which the custome of the church hath alwaies obserued a plenarie councel cōfirmed And the reasons and testimonies of scriptures on both sides being throughly weighed I may say we follow that which trueth hath declared And repeating the euidence of his side he saith it may be vnderstood by the former custome of the Church by the strength of a generall councell that followed by so many so weightie testimonies of the holy scriptures by manifolde instructions out of Cyprians owne workes and very plaine arguments of trueth And therefore drawing to an end he saith It might perhaps suffice that our reasons being so oft repeated and diuersly debated and handled in disputing and the Documents of the holy Scriptures being added and so many testimonies of Cyprian him-selfe concurring iam etiam corde tardiores quantum existimo intelligunt by this time the weaker and duller sort of men as I thinke vnderstande that the baptisme of Christ can not bee violated by no peruersenesse of the partie that giueth it or taketh it and therefore must not bee iterated Thus in one and the selfesame worke you see S. Austen auouching it to be a Tradition not written and yet confirmed by manifest scriptures Phi. I heare him say so but I see not how it can be Theo. You will not for feare you shoulde see your selues conuinced of an error it is otherwise plaine enough The thing it selfe is not written but receiued by Tradition mary the grounds of it be so layd in the scriptures that it may thence bee rightly concluded The like we say for the baptisme of infants the precept it selfe is not written nor any example of it in the scriptures but it was deliuered vnto the church by tradition from the Apostles mary it so dependeth on those principles of faith which bee written that it may bee fairely deduced from them and fully proued by them Phi. By Tradition onely hee and other condemned Heluidius the heretike for denying the perpetual virginitie of our Lady Theo. Your stoare fayleth you when you flee from fayth and hope in GOD to examine Ioseph and Marie that you may picke out somewhat betweene them to impeache the perfection of the Scriptures That Christ was borne of a virgine vndefiled is an high point of fayth and plainely testified in the Scriptures That after the birth of her Sonne she was not knowen of her husband is a reuerend and seemely truth preserued in the Church by witnesses woorthie to bee trusted but no part of fayth needefull to bee recorded in the Scriptures Phi. Saint Augustine sayth it is Integra fide credendum est With an vpright fayth we must beleeue that blessed Mary the mother of God and Christ was a virgin in conceiuing a virgin when she was deliuered and remained a virgin after the birth of her sonne And we must beware the blasphemie of Heluidius which sayde shee was a virgin before but not after the birth of Christ. Theo. Grate not on these thinges which were better to bee honoured with silence than discussed with diligence The booke which you bring is not S. Augustines It was found vnder Tertullians name as wel as vnder Augustines though Tertullian himselfe bee twise there noted for an heretike and chalenged the first time for that very error which S. Augustine in his true booke of heresies doeth acquite him from And yet these wordes Credendum est Mariam virginem concepisse virginem genuisse post partum virginem permansisse Wee must beleeue that the mother of Christ was a pure virgin when she conceiued when shee brought forth his sonne and after she was deliuered do not touch your question as they are defended by S. Augustine in his vndoubted woorkes to bee part of our fayth but onely that shee was a pure virgin after his birth notwithstanding his birth And therefore hee sayth Quisi velper nascentem corrumperetur eius integritas iam non ille de virgine nasceretur If Christes birth euen when hee was borne shoulde haue violated the virginitie of his mother then had hee not beene borne of a virgin So that as shee conceiued the Lorde and was still a virgin so shee was deliuered of him and her selfe yet a virgin that is not onely without the knowledge of man but also without all hurt of her body she remaining after shee was deliuered of her childe as perfect a virgin in body as shee was before she conceiued him And this to be the right meaning of those wordes Post partum virgo permansit shee remayned a virgin after the birth of her child when her virginitie must bee vrged for a poynt of fayth the sermons extant vnder the name of S. Augustine do clearly confesse Nec dubites Mariam virginem mansisse post partum quia qualiter hoc factum sit non humanus sermo neque sensus potest comprehendere Neuer doubt but Marie remained a virgin after the birth of her childe although
cut off al ambiguities we haue the plaine testimonie of Gregorie the great that the Church of Rome 600. yeres after Christ knew nothing of those constitutions and Church seruices which are now obtruded vnder the Apostles names Mos Apostolorum fuit vt ad ipsam solummodo orationem Dommicam oblationis hostiam consecraret This was saith he the maner of the Apostles to consecrate the sacrifice with saying no moe praiers but the Lords praier In vaine therefore doe you dreame of a settled forme of praier for the Lords supper where as the Apostles haue none but left that to the direction and disposition of the holy Ghost inspiring the ministers and elders in euery Church when the faithful were assembled to make their praiers vnto god with the people and to render him thankes for all his mercies as the spirite gaue them vtterance This Chrysostome calleth Precandi domum the miraculous gift of praiers whereof S. Paul speaketh in this place and Tertul. seemeth to meÌ„tion the same in his Apologie for the Christians as during in the Church vnto his time We saith he looking vp to heauen with our hands stretched out as being innocent bareheaded as not ashamed sine monitore quia de pectore oramus make our praiers without any prompter as comming from the free motion of our own harts Phi. Our arguments conuince that S. Paul spake not of the Churches seruice and till those be answered we cannot change our minds Theo. That which I haue alreadie saide openeth your error in mistaking or els peruerting the wordes of S. Paul choose you whether if that content you not repeate your reasons as they stand in rew that we may see their force Phi. It is euident the Corinthians had their Seruice in Greeke at this same time and â—t was not done in these miraculous toungs Nothing is ment then of the church seruice Theo. To vs it is out of question that the Corinthians had their publike prayers and exhortations in the Greeke tongue because the common people of that City vnderstood none other and the tongue which they vnderstoode not might not be vsed in the Church by S. Pauls rule but you that denie S. Paul to speak of the Church seruice in this place howe prooue you the Corinthians had their Seruice in the Greeke tongue Phi. Doe you thinke they had not Theo. For our parts as I tolde you we are resolued because S. Paul would neither haue preaching nor praying in the Church but such as might edifie addeth that an vnknown tongue profiteth nothing to edificatioÌ„ mary you are otherwise minded and therefore I see not howe you can proue that they had their seruice in the Greeke tongue which you affirme to be euident Phi. Had they their Seruice trow you in an vnknowne tongue Theo. In your opinion that is no such absurdity Phi. They could not vnderstand it except it were in Greeke Theo. This is contrary to your owne Principles For the Hebrewe Greeke and Latine as you told vs euen nowe were vnderstoode of the cyuill people in euery great Citie and were that vntrue as I know it is though you auouched it for an aduantage yet is it not necessarie to vnderstand our prayers as your selues defend in this your declaration vpon S. Paul and following the path that you leade vs in your Rhemish obseruations wee say you can not prooue the Corinthians had their seruice in the Greeke tongue Philand In what tongue else coulde they haue it Theoph. Rather in Hebrewe than in Greeke for that tongue was sacred and naturall to the Iewes who first spred the Gospel and planted the Churches Phi. The Apostle requireth the people shoulde vnderstande the prayers of the Church otherwise they reape no profite by them and to speake Hebrewe in the Church to them that vnderstood nothing but Greeke were no reason Theo. Are you there at host now Can you plea thus on both sides when you be vrged You are making inuincible arguments that the Apostle speaketh nothing in this place of the Churches seruice before you can iustifie the first proposition which you bring you bee faine to take hold of this very place to prooue the Corinthians had their Church seruice in Greeke Phi. Nay without this place it is euident they had their seruice in greeke The. Set this chapter aside and if you prooue the Corinthians had their seruice in Greeke at this very time when the Apostle wrate wee giue you the cause Phi. You be resolued they had and yet you put vs to prooue it as if it were in doubt Theo. I tel the reason It is euident they had their seruice in a knowen tongue by that which the Apostle here writeth otherwise it is not euident by any other proofe that you can make And since you will haue the Apostle to speake nothing of the Church Seruice in this chapter why shoulde wee not put you to prooue that which you lay for the ground of your misconstring Saint Pauls text Phi. A trueth it is what proofe soeuer may or may not be brought for it Theo. Let it stand for trueth what will you conclude Phi. Nothing is meant then of their Church Seruice Theo. Why so Phi. That was in Greeke and well vnderstood of all the people Theo. A worthy sequele As if it were not possible for some vaine men to disturbe the Church of Corinth notwithstanding the Apostle had left generall direction that al things should be doone in the church vnto edification The Lordes supper was rightly deliuered them was it therefore not abused by some amongst them The like say we for their praiers in the church No doubt Paul ordained at Corinth as he did in al other churches of the Saincts that the people should say Amen to euery blessing and thankesgiuing that was vsed in the Church Might not therfore some of their Elders and ministers to venditate themselues and the gift which they had of God sometimes blesse and make their praiers at the Lords table in a tongue not vnderstoode of the whole multitude Phi. Were they strangers or inhabitants Theo. It skilleth not whether they might bee either Phi. Inhabitants there would vse none other toung than their owne and strangers might not minister Sacramentes in other mens Churches Theo. Some of their own might be so vain glorious as in making their praiers at the Lordes table which was then doone by hart and not after any prescribed order or form to shew the gift of tongues which they receiued of the holy Ghost to an other end and not to commend them-selues without edifiing the hearer Strangers also if they were in place were suffered both to teach and blesse in the Church as well as others that were tied to their Cures by reason that many were sent by the Apostles and by the holy Ghost to visite the Churches and comfort the Christians as they traueled and such were according to their
the Lords table we look not on that which is brokeÌ„ in peeces which is pressed with teeth which feedeth the body but onely that which is taken spiritually by faith Doth the meate which the faithful receiue in the church as touching that which is corporally taken that which is chammed with teeth that which is swallowed with iawes that which is closed in the compasse of the belly put vs in assurance of eternall life This way no question it feedeth our flesh which shall dy neither yeeldeth vs any kind of incorruption For this which the body receiueth is corruptible that which fayth beholdeth feedeth the soule and perfourmeth vs euerlasting life If these fathers be not able to remoue you from the corporal eating of christs flesh with teeth iawes heare in how plaine termes your own Law doth check this grossenes of yours The flesh of Christ is not incorporated with vs descendeth not into the stomacke passeth not into the nourishment of the body for it is the food of the soule not of the body And where Pope Nicholas draue Berengarius in his recantation to say that the flesh of Christ was truely chaÌ„med between the teeth of the faithful Your Gloze could forebear no longer but cried out Nisi sanè intelligas except thou take good heede to these words thou shalt fal into a greater heresie than euer Berengarius held Then blame not vs Philander for saying this your assertion is not catholike the Prouost Mareschall of your owne side not long since sayde it was hereticall Phi. Haue you done Theo. I haue if you list to begin Phi. What a stirre is here to bring beggers to the stockes al not worth a straw Theo. In deede Friers are the neerest kinsmen that beggers haue they both liue by shifting gaine by dissembling saue that Friers are alwaies within doores when beggars are without But what is it that doth so much offend you in my speech Philan. You runne along with Scriptures and Fathers as if all were yours Theophil I shew you a trueth confirmed by the Scriptures auouched by the Fathers and confessed by your owne fellowes If that displease you your mouth is out of tast Philand Haue you the trueth so hath the Diuell for you bee his members in that you bee Heretikes Theo. This is but a iades tricke when you feele the spurres to fling out behind The more you reason the more you finde that you haue runne the race of your owne deuises without the fathers and now you can not resist you fall to reuiling and cursed speaking Phi. We can with one lifte lay all your authorities in the miâ—e Theoph. Your can is great but your liquor small I dare promise for you that you will struggle what you can to bee rid of the burden Phi. With three bare words I wil answere your three parts and all your proofes Theo. They may be so bare they will doe you no good but at aduenture what are they Phi. That the signes after consecration carie the names and effectes of the things themselues I graunt it to be very true but it answereth not the places which I did obiect And as for the substance of bread remaining which sâ—me Fathers seeme to affirme wee say substance is there takâ—n not for the very substance it selfe which is really changed into the body of Christ but for some other thing Theo. What other thing Phi. Not for that which you meane Theo. Let my meaning alone and speake you to their assertion that say the breade and wine remaine after Consecration in their former and proper nature and substance Phi. Substance is there taken for nature Theo. Nature is so general that it compriseth both the substance accidents of euery thing If then the signes remaine in their former nature they must retaine both their former substance and their former accidents Phi. Their substance they doe not their qualities they doe as sight tast bignes and such like properties Theo. But the places which I cite affirme they retaine both and namely their proper and former substance Phi. That is their former qualities Theo. Doth substance signifie qualities Phi. In these places it doth Theo. Why more in these than in others Substance in all learning is diuided against accidents how then commeth substance by your learning to be taken for accidents Phi. It is so For otherwise those sayings were all one with heresie if substance should be taken in his proper signification Theo. Yea marie now you come to your right colours If the fathers words should not be violently wrested from their perpetual naturall signification you cannot possibly auoide but they taught â—hat doctrine for Catholike which you now reiect for heresie Phi. They neuer taught it The. Themselues be dead and do not speake their words in which they spake whiles they liued make as directly for vs as we can spake any vnlesse you turne all that euer they said the vpside downe and take figures for truths substance for accidents creatures for shewes teeth for faith heauen for earth Which priuilege of interpreting scriptures and fathers cleane contrarie to the sense if you can procure or iustifie I will be your suretie all the Protestants in Christendome shal neuer touch the least haire of your heads in all the follies which you defend Phi. We doe not force them against their meaning Then shew your exposition to be true by other points of their doctrine and partes of their writings which must infallibly force you to that construction Phi. So we doe Theo. With places as shamefully abused as these Phi. No by inumerable and ineuitable authorities Theo. Bring but one father that shall say the substance of bread and wine is ceased or abolished by consecration and you shall haue free leaue to doe what you will with all the rest Phi. We can bring infinite Theo. You may the sooner choose out one Philan. You would put vs to bring other proofes before you haue answered those that are alreadie produced I brought you sir fathers affirming the flâ—she and bloud of Christ were receiued with our mouthes you would leape to new matter and shake them off at your fingers end but I will none of that First make euen with the old scores before you enter on a new reckoning Theophi You were the cause of that digression and not I. You replied to my proofes and persued not your owne And yet you neede not say your places are vnanswered your selfe haue confessed the weakenes of your owne authorities yeelded them as vnsufficient to beare the weight of your conclusion what other answere would you haue Phi. Haue I dissabled mine owne proofes Theo. Your owne conclusion you haue Phi. Would you make me so madde Theo. I thinke you were more sober then than now For then you agâ—ised a trueth and now you resist it againe Phi. What did I agnise Doe you thinke I was a sleepe that I
diuels sacrifices that their Masse is a sacrifice No man partaker of their sacrifice besides the Priest because nâ— man eateth of it but the Priest To eate and drinke at Christes table is Christs ordinance to sacrifice is not Adoration of the sacrameÌ„t The Iesuites pretending to adore Châ—ist adore the creatures of bread and wine No difference betweene these two speaches the Rocke was Christ and this is my bodâ—e * 2. Cor. 13. * Mat. 10. * 1. Thes. 2. We haue plainer wordâ—s that the Rock was Christ than they haue that the bread is Christ. Pauls speach doth interpret Christs words Whie do they not adore the Priest as well as the pixe That which was contained in the pixe is inclosed in the Priests bodie Christ must not be adored at our discretion but at all times and in al places If a rat should eate the host it would make a foule worke among the Iesuits No father teacheth that the SacrameÌ„t should be adored The Rhe. Test fol. 453. nu 29. not discerning the bodie Halfe this would serue if anie part of it were to the purpose * A smoothe tale of Robin Hoode will prooue the adoration of the sacrameÌ„t as well as this that here ensueth Epist. 118. ca. 6 * The Pharisees and the Iesuits meete iust in this kinde of holineâ— This number is sufficient if they speake to the matter They suppose creatures to be Christ and then at all aduentures they adore them in his steade All these fathers are impertinent to this purpose Not one of them besides Theodoret speaketh of the externall Sacrament It is one to adore Christ which is in the mysteries an other to adore the mysteries themselues which no father teacheth The Rhemish Test. sol 453. Epist. 118. ca. 3. S. Augustine peruerted by the Iesuiâ—s Aug. â—e Doâ—tr Christ. li. 3. ca. 9. Ibidem S. Aug. alloweth veneratioÌ„ but not adoration to this or anie other Sacrament Ibidem li. 3. cap. 5. Not to distinguish the signes from the thinges is a miserable seruitude of the soule August de vera Religio c. 54. AdoratioÌ„ due onelie vnto God * Ibidem Ibidem August ep 118. What veneration is due to this Sacrament In Psal. 98. What S. Aug. spake of Christes flesh the Iesuites turne to their host The true eating of christs flesh is all one with the adoring of it The ground of all their errors abuses in the Masse is their reall presence * De spir sanct lib. 3. cap. 12. * We adore Christ in theÌ„ we adore not the mysteries themselues The accideÌ„ts of bread and wine be absurdities they be no mysteries How Christ is present in the mysteries This is not to adore Christ but the creatures The misconstruction of Christes words leadeth them to this Idolatrie Christ is adored in the mysteries though he be not locallie inclosed in them We shut him not vp in the compasse of the host but by faith wee behold enioy his presence at his table This presence is fruitful and effectuall theirs is not We must lift vp our harts not to the host but vnto heauen Chys in 1. Cor. homil 24. Nazianz. in epitaph Gorgoniae Christ is honoured and serued on the Altar though he be not corporallie fastned to the host Chrysostom corrupted by the Iesuits Chrys. in 1. Cor. hom 24. We must get vp to heauen with the wings of faith before we can rightlie adore Christ as Chrysostome would haue vs to adore him We maie behold the host with lesse adoe if that had beene Chrysostoms meaning Nazianz. in epitaph Gorgoniae Christ is truelie said to be honored on the altar because his mercies are theÌ„ce deliuered vnto vs and our prayers from thence offered vnto him sitting in heauen Ioan 4. * Exod. 3. Christ is honored on earth and yet that doth prooue him to be personallie on earth Nazianzens sister had the Sacrament about her which she did not adore but him that was serued on the sacred table Eccles. Hierarch cap. 3. * We will shewe you where you haue corrupted this father in expresse wordes * If these be not his words then you be furiously bent to forge You neuer read them once The Iesuits say this inuocaetion of the Sacrament was made after consecration as if Dionyâ—ius had beene mumbling a Masse and not writing a booke If the Greeke woorde had been 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as it is not that was no cause for you to wrest it to the Sacrament a 2. Thes. 2. b Apoc. 17. There are manie mysteries which are not the sacrament of the Altar c Colos. 2. d 1. Tim. 3. e Ephes. 6. f 1. Tim. 3. The diuine humane natures of Christ are most wonderfull mysteries g Mat. 13. h 1. Cor. 4. i 1. Colos. 1. The Iesuites ignorance in wresting Dionysius The Iesuits meanes to defend their errors be as wicked as their errors He maie treat of the Sacrament yet speake to Christ because Christ is the trueth and perfection of the Sacraments Do you noâ— peruert the words when you force them for adoration of corruptible creatures against the authors mâ—â—ning A second exposition of Dionysius his words Dionysius distinguisheth the elements from that which he speaketh to Ios. 10. 3. King 13. Esa. 1. Psal. 24. The imperatiue moode is no praier except the person beâ— such as we maie not otherwise speak vnto but by praier Christ is not reallie couered with the vailes of bread and wine but figuratiuelie represented and truelie receiued by them Dionys eccles hierarâ—h cap. 3. The Rhe. test fol. 453. * This is right Iesuiticall religion to crie thus vpon a dumb dead creature No blasphemie Iere. 2. The Iewish heathen Idolaters were neuer so grosse If it be a figuratiue speach as anon shall be prooued you shall cough me the ranckest Idolaters that euer were on the face of the earth The Iesuites crake they haue the whole church with them when they haue not so much as one father for the greatest points of their religion The Rhe. test pag. 21. nu 8. Domine non sum dignus * Liturg. S. Chrysost. Graec. sub finem Origen and Chrysostome abused for inuocation of the Sacrament Look the places when you will and you shall finde it to be otherwise How Christ at this daie entereth our roofe Orig. hom 5. ad diuers Christ entereth the soule and not the mouth of maÌ„ We must saie Lord I am not worthie to Christ not to the Sacrament for the Centurion saide it to Christs persoÌ„ Christ is more truelie and substantiallie in vs than in the Sacrament That Christ dwelleth reallie and corporallie in vs See Chrysostome homil 83. in Mat. Cyril in Iohan. lib. 10. cap. 13. li. 11. ca. 26. Hilarius de Trinitate lib. 8. but that he dwelleth so in the Sacrament the Iesuits shall neuer prooue Christ entereth not our mouthes when he commeth vnder our roofe * Iâ—an 14. * â—phes â— Christ dwelleth in vs as trulie by his
For Noli te extollere sed esto Deo subditus exalt not thy selfe but bee subiect to God you say Exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure and suppresse the rest which should declare when a Prince exalteth himselfe aboue his measure to wit when he is not subiect to God The next wordes which you bring When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishops are not found Ibidem as you quote them that is Epistola 33 ad sororem but Epistola 32 ad Valentinianum Imperatorem And In causa fider In a matter of faith which Ambrose addeth you leaue out in the first sentence though you double it at y◠latter end These scapes I will winke at and come to the words themselues Thinke not thy selfe to haue any Emperial right ouer diuine things Neither do we say Princes haue for an emperial right is to commaund alter and abrogate what they think good which is lawful neither for men nor Angels in diuine matters Palaces are for Princes and Churches for Priests this was truely saide if you know not the reason Churches were first appointed for publike praier and preaching which belong to the Priests and not to the Princes function And for that cause Bishops were to teach Princes which was the right faith Princes were not to teach the Bishops much lesse to professe thēselues iudges of trueth as Valentinian did when he said Ego debeo iudicare I ought to bee iudge whether Christ be God or no for that was the question between the Arrians and Ambrose and that was the word which S. Ambrose stoutly but wisely refused When we say that Princes be iudges of faith bring S. Ambrose against vs and spare not but we bee farther off from that impietie to make men iudges ouer God than you be Doe you not make the Prince iudge of faith Theo. You know we do not Phi. Produce not vs for witnesses we know no such thing Theo. Your own acts shall depose for vs if your mouthes will not If we make Princes to bee iudges of faith why were so many of vs consumed not long since in England with fier and fagot for disliking that which the Prince and the Pope affirmed to be faith Why at this day doe you kill and murder elsewhere so many thousands of vs for reiecting that as false religion which the kings princes of your side professe for true If wee make Princes iudges why do we rather loose our liues than stand to their iudgemēts Your stakes that yet be warm your swords that yet be bloodie do witnes for vs and against you that in matters of faith we make neither Prince nor Pope to be iudge God is not subiect to the iudgemēt of man no more is his trueth Phi. What power then do you giue to Princes Theo. What power so euer we giue them we giue them no power to pronounce which is trueth Phi. What do you then Theo. Neuer aske that you know Haue we spent so many words and you now to seeke what we defend But you see S. Ambrose maketh nothing for you And therefore you picke a quarell to the question Phi. S. Ambrose would not yeeld Valentinian the Emperour so much as a Church in Millan and when hee was willed to appeare before the Emperour in his consistorie or els depart the Citie he would do neither Theo. You care not to fit your purpose though you make S. Ambrose a sturdie rebell You would fayne find a president to colour your headynes against the Prince but in Ambrose you can not his answere to Valentinian was stout but lawfull constant but Christian as the circumstances of the facts will declare Valentinian a yong Prince incensed by Iustina his mother and other Eunuches about him willed Ambrose to come and dispute with Auxentius the Arrian in his consistorie before him and hee would bee iudge whether of their two religions were truest and which of them twaine shoulde bee Bishop of Millan Auxentius or Ambrose otherwise to depart whither he would To this Ambrose made a sober and duetifull answere in defence of himselfe and his cause and gaue it in writing to Valentinian shewing him amongst other things that he was yong in yeres a nouice in faith not yet baptised rather to learne than to iudge of bishops that the consistorie was no fit place for a priest to dispute in where the hearers should be Iewes on gētiles so scoffe at Christ the Emperour himselfe partial as appeared by his Law published before that time to impugne the truth As for departing if he were forced he would not resist but with his consent he could not relinquish his church to saue his life wtout great sinne And because Auxentius his companions vrged this that the Emperour ought to be iudge in matters of faith Saint Ambrose followeth and refelleth that word as repugnant not onely to the diuine Scriptures but also to the Romane lawes Conclusus vndique ad versutiam patrum suorum confugit de Imperatore vult inuidiam commouere dicens iudicare debere adolescentē catechumenū sacrae lectionis ignarum in consistorio iudicare Auxentius driuen to his shiftes hath recourse to the craft of his forefathers seeking to procure vs enuie by the Emperours name and sayth the Prince ought to bee iudge though hee bee yong not yet baptized and ignorant of the Scriptures and that in the Consistorie And to the Emperour himselfe Your father a man of riper yeeres sayde It is not for mee to bee iudge betweene Bishoppes doeth your clemencie nowe at these yeeres say I ought to bee iudge And hee baptized in Christ thought himselfe vnable for the weight of so great a iudgement doeth your clemencie that hath not yet obtayned to the Sacrament of baptisme chalenge the iudgement of fayth whereas yet you knowe not the mysteries of fayth No man shoulde thinke mee stubburne when I stand on this which your father of famous memorie not onely pronounced in woordes but also confirmed by his Lawes that in a cause of fayth or ecclesiasticall order hee shoulde be iudge that was both like in function and ruled by the same kind of right For those be the words of the Rescript his meaning was hee woulde haue Priests to bee iudges of Priests Then follow the wordes which you cite When euer didst thou heare most clement Emperour in a cause of fayth that Laymen iudged of bishops Shall wee so bend for flatterie that we should forget the right or duetie of Priests and what God hath bequeathed to me I should commit to others If a Bishop must be taught by a Layman what to follow let a Lay man then dispute or speake in the Church and a Bishop be an auditor let the Bishop learne of a Layman But surely if we suruey the course of the diuine Scriptures or auncient times who is there that can deny but in a cause of faith in a