orders which this epistle will not haue broken but eyther by compulsion to be kept or punished by deposition so carelesse a husband so bad a Christian so weake a protectour he is or els which I rather thinke so light witted a man as he will offer vpon any occasion to aduenture all he hath be it his wife cause or credit though the conditions on which he doth it be neuer so vnequall disaduantagious or preiudiciall vnto him 43. Before I end this matter I will come from M. Halls text vnto his margent where first he maketh this note saying Whether Huldericus Extreme folly to make no doubt of that which is only doubted of or as he is some where intituled Volusianus I enquire not the matter admits no doubt So he But this is extreme folly for it importeth all in all to know the true Author when all the credit of the thing reporteth lyeth thereon as heere it doth or els any may obtrude whatsoeuer broken peece of a letter they shal find on the dunghill to be written by some Father the thing shall challeng authority from the writer and this thing neuer hauing beene seene or heard of in the world before can haue no credit if it were only written by some late sectary as we haue inst cause to suspect and M. Hall cannot disproue whereas if he could proue it written by S. Huldricke we should more esteeme it and answere it with more regard the authority being greater in the behalfe of our Aduersaryes then if it had beene coyned by some MagdeburgiaÌ„ or elâ— by some Sacramentary either moderne or more ancient To auoyd the suspition of this imposture M. Hall cyteth againe his learned Pope Pius 2. or Aeneas Siluius in sua Germania which title Iohn Fox setteth downe more fully saying Aeneas Siluius hath no mention of the counterfeit epistle of S. Vdalricus Meminit ciusdem epistolae Aeneas Siluius in sua peregrinatione Germaniae descriptione Aeneas Siluius maketh mention of this letter in his pilgrimage and description of Germany but it should seem that Iohn Fox his wit was gone in pilgrimage or or els a woll gathering when he made this note for after some search I haue made of his bookes I thinke I haue better meanes to find them out then Fox had I can find none extant vnder the one or other title nor yet vnder the title of his Germany as M. Hall expresseth it neither doth Trithemius in his catalogue or Posseuinus in Apparatu where they set downe all the bookes they could find of this Pope mention any such worke and so the mention made of this letter in this Pilgrimage is a meere idle toy framed out of the wandring imagination of Iohn Fox and vpon to light credit taken vp by M. Hall There is in his workes extant an answere to one Martin Mayer for defence of the holy Roman Church in which he describeth some parts of Germany by which he had passed and speaking of Auspurg he sayth as the Germans haue printed him in Basill S. Vdalricus huic praefidet qui Papam arguit de concubinis c. S. Vdalricus is patron of this place who reprehended the Pope for concubines it lyeth by the riuer Licus So he as these Sacramentaryes haue set him out Which being all graunted belongeth not to this matter in hand but concerneth only the bad life of the young Pope Iohn then thrust by force of friends and maintayned by tyranny in that seat which abuse the Church is forced sometymes to suffer as temporall states do ill Princes but in the one and the other personall crimes as they tend to the impeachment of priuate fame so nothing derogate from publike authority in such the office is to be considered apart from the life as Moyses his chayre from the Pharisyes who sate thereon their power we reuerence their liues we abhorre no state so high no calling so holy no function so laudable but ill men haue beene found therein and if once we confound the life with the office and out of the vnworthynes of the one inferre the denyall of the other we shall leaue no Pope Bishop Priest Emperour King or other Magistrate whatsoeuer and this supposing these to be the words of Aeneas Siluius of which I haue some cause to doubt both for that I haue seene a printed copy without them and moreouer I haue seen three Manuscripts of which as two were lately written had them so the 3. which was much more ancient in the text had them not but in the margent only by which meanes forged glosses so creep in often tymes as they com at length to be printed with the wordes of the Author but howsoeuer to this purpose they make nothing and the other whom M. Hâ—ll ioyneth with him to wit Gaspar Hedio a late heretike is of no credit to iustify this matter no more then M. Iohn Fox Ioseph Hall or any other professed aduersary 44. Againe it is another vntruth to say that somewhere he is intituled Volusianus for though Benefild against M. Leech call the Author of that letter Volusianus yet doubtles he meaneth The Author of the forged epistle vncertains another man distinct from S. Vdalricke who was neuer named Volusianus by any writer and this maketh the whole tale more to reele seeing it is obtruded as a base child that knoweth not his owne Fathers name and if once we remoue it from S. Vdalricke to whome as I haue proued it cannot agree the thing leeseth all credit and proueth nothing but the corrupt dealing of such as alleage it for this Volusianus is a name inuented to make fooles fayne no man knowing what he was where he was borne when he liued of what calling or credit in the world whether of kyt or kin to the man in the Moon for he neuer liued on our inferiour orbe vnder the first second or third Nicholas if I might interpose my ghesse I should thinke him to be brother to Steuen the subdeacon before mentioned out of Gratian for that he is so ready to father the fatherles and take a child to his charge which he neuer begot 45. But sayth M. Hall the matter admits no doubt which is another vntruth for whether by the word matter M. Hall vnderstand the Authour of the letter or the contents themselus both are doubted yea both are denyed and to take that for graunted which resteth in controâ—ersy to be proued is a foule fault in Philosophy and called petitio principij as if one to credit Petitio principij a foule fault in â— Philosopher M. Hall and to proue that for his learning he deserueth to be estcemed against one who shold deny him to be learned at all should thus conclude All learned men deserue to be esteemed but M. Hall as I suppose is a learned man Ergo he is for such to be esteemed no man will allow that he suppose the Minor as graunted which only is called in
power not to be a woman so little is it in thy power to be without a man Because this matter is not left in our owne hands but it is both necessary and naturall that euery man haue a woman and euery woman haue a man c. And this is more then a coÌ„mandement and more necessary then to eat and drinke purgare exspuere are to homely stuffe to be Englished to sleep and wake So far this Christian Epicure and some 6. pages after he counsaileth what is to be done in case the wife be froward and will not come at her husbands call and his aduise is to leaue her in her frowardnes and to take some other to seeke some Hesther and leaue Vasthy with other such beastly impertinencies 30. By this you see how Luther and M. Hall The first point is discussed to wit whether the vow of chastity be Vnlawfull or not like Pilate and Herode though at variance betwene themselues yet in this do agree against vs that the vow of castity is vnlawfull and impossible let vs now debate frendly the matter it selfe in eyther member and see if this eyther in reason or from the warrant of Scriptures or the Fathers can subsist And to begin with the vnlawfulnes if the vow of chastity be vnlawfwll it must either be in respect of the vow or of the matter vowed but from neither of these two branches can this vnlawfulnes proceed and consequently it is not vnlawfull at all Not from the first because Deuteron 23. Eccles 5. psal 21. 49. 65. 75. vows in generall are lawfull and as such are allowed in the old and new testament and of the Messias it was prophesyed that the Aegyptians should worship him in sacrifices and giftes and further Vota vouebunt Domino soluent they shall Isa 19. make vowes vnto our Lord and shall performe them and these vowes do more straytly bind vs vnto God then any promises made amongst men do bynd them to one another Quà m grauia Ambros lib. 9. in Lucam in caput 20. sunt vincula saith S. Ambroise promittere Deo non soluere c. How grieuous are the bands to promise to God and not to performe It is better not to vow then to vow and not to render what we haue vowed Maior est contractus fidei quà m pecuniae the contract or promise of Religion is greater then the contract or promise of money satisfy thy promise whiles yet thou art aliue before the Leo epist 92. cap. 15. Iudge come cast thee into prison So he The same to omit others hath S. Leo Ambigi non potest c. It caÌ„not be doubted that a great sine is coÌ„mitted where the religious purpose is forsaken vowes violated The reason whereof he yeldeth saying Si humana pacta non possunt impunè calcari quid de eis manebit qui corruperint foedera diuini Sacramenti If humane contracts are not broken without punishment what shall become of them who haue violated the coÌ„tracts of their sacred promise made vnto God So he And this was the cause why the Apostle sayd that the yong widdowes by violating their vow had incurred damnation because it was made to God and so could not be made voyd at all Quid est sayth S. Augustine August in psalm 75. primam fidem irritam â—ecerunt â— vouerunt non reddiderunt What is meant that they made voyd their first fayth they vowed and performed not their vows What more cleare And in another De virginitate cap. 33. place primam fidem irrittam fecerunt id est in eo quod primò vouerant non steterunt they made voyd their first â—ayth that is they remayned not constant in that which they had first vowed 31. And this place not only proueth a vow to be lawfull in generall but euen in this particuler matter we now speake of I meane of chastity Because these widdowes were reprehended of the Apostle for that they would marry and not liue chastly in widdowhood as they had vowed as before I haue shewed to which end and to proue the perpetuall band of these vowes it is applyed also by S. Fulgentius when Fulgentius de fide ad Petrum cap. 30. he fayth Quistatuit in corde suo firmus non habens necessitatem potestatem autem habens suae voluntatis c. He who hath determined in his hart being stedfast not hauing any necessity but hauing power ouer his owne will and hath vowed chastity to God he ought with all care and sollicitude of mynd to keep the same vntill the end of his life least he haue damnation if he shall make voyd his first fayth So he And to the same effect before him wrote S. Hierom saying Nazaraei Hierom. in caput 46. Ezechielu â— sponte se offeruÌ„t quicumque aliquid vouerit non impleuerit votireus est c. The Nazarites voluÌ„tarily offer themselues and whosoeuer hath vowed any thing not fullfilled it is guilty of his violated vow wherupon of widdowes it is sayd when they waxe wanton in Christ they will marry hauing damnation c. for it is better not at all to promise then not to fullfil what is promised Lib. 1. in Iouinian and in another place against Iouinian If Iouiniaâ— shall say that this was sayd of widdowes how much more shall it be of force in Virgins and iâ— it were not lawfull for widdowes for whomâ— shall it be lawfull So S. Hierome 32. And further to proue the lawfullnes oâ— a vow in this particuler matter to wit of chastity either virginall viduall or of single life the speciall subiect of our controuersy to omâ— other arguments I will only touch fiue â— which foure shall be taken out of such Fatherâ— writings as M. Hall doth acknowledge and â—â— whome he refers his cause The first whereâ— shall be their comparing the state of such as liuâ— a chast life with the state of Angells and exhorting thereunto Secondly their preferring ofâ— before marriage Thirdly their sharp rebukeâ— such as haue broken their vow Lastly thâ— condemning of the marriage of vow-breaken calling it worse then aduowtry c. To these will add the approuance of the Canon and punishments appointed by the Ciuill laws for such abused Religious women and then leaue it â— any to iudge whether it be turpe votum a brandâ— Antichristianism worse then aduowtry a diabolicall thiâ— or the like or whether this base assertion wâ— euer taught or belieued in the world by any â—ther then Heretikes And M. Hall if he will staâ— to the triall of antiquity shall I assure him â— this be either forced to acknowledge his errouâ— or els to recall what he hath written that the Fathers tryall it as reuerend as any vnder heauen further Hall decad 4. ep 8. to tippling Thomas of Oxford certaynely it cannot be truth that is new we would renounce our Religion if it could be ouer
constancy the glory of miracles all the gifts of the holy Ghost made famous that in this respect England hath no cause to enuy now at other most noble Cittyes for their renowned Pastours So Baronius of S. Dunstane 89. And in case that the three Saints named by M. Godwin had beene lesse eager against M. Godwine to free in ceÌ„suring of a short memory the marriage of Priests then S. Anselme I see not why he in that respect should not haue beene more fauourable also vnto them in their liues which yet he is not for of S. Oswald he sayth That he was very earnest in setting forth that doctrine of Diuells that debarreth men of lawfull marrâ—â—ge of S. Ethelwold that he plaied the Rex at VVinchester turning along eight honest Priests into the world with their wiues and children of S. Dunstane he rayseth diuers iniurious slaunders but you must know the cause of all to be that which he vttereth in the last words of his life to wit for persecuting and hunting marryed Priests euery where out of their liuings which clause if you marke it well ouerthroweth the other before cyted concerning S. Anselme that his persecutioÌ„ was more general then the other of S. Dunstane S. Ethelwold S. Oswalde when as yet their decrees as you haue seene are all one and alike in generall for all and heere further you haue S. Dunstane no lesse then S. Anselme not only in Monasteryes or places where Chanons dwelled but euery where to haue hunted and persecuted marryed Priests out of their liuings Stil I must complain of want of memory in these men who in their heat of contradiction against vs forget in The famous example which hapned at the Councell of Calne one place what they haue written in another 90. Which point is yet made more cleare by the memorable miracle which happened at Calne of which in a manner al our writers make mention as Osbertus Malmesbury Florentius Huntingdon Houeden Matthew VVestminster and others where in the behalfe of all the incontinent Clergy many of the Nobility were assembled Osbert in vita Dunstani Malmes l. 2. cap. 9. Florent in anno 977. Houeden eodem Hunting in anno 4. Eduard â—â— togeather with their Oratour Bernelinus a Scottish man that so eyther by power or perswasioÌ„ they might ouerbeare S. Dunstane Validissimum illum murum Ecclesiae sayth Malmesbury that most strong bulwarke of the Church But against all humane power and eloquence God shewed which part pleased him best which highly displeased him for the house where they sate in Councell sodenly fell downe and either killed or sorely wounded all those who withstood the Saint he and his as Osbert recounteth in his life being free from all danger which wonderfull euent albeit Huntington the speciall proctour for marryed Priests do â—arely recount without any mention of the cause of their meeting and moreouer do turne it to another interpretation yet others especially Malinesbury the best after Bede that we haue for our historyes in assigning the effect truely insinuateth the cause saying Hoc miraculum Archiepiscopo exhibuit pacem de Clericis omnibus Anglis tunc deinceps in eius sententiam concedentibus This miracle ended the 〈◊〉 betweene S. Dunstane and the Clergy all English men as wel then as after yielding vnto his opinion So he Out of which words I gather against M. Godwin that S Dunstane no lesse then S. Anselme opposed against all marryed Priests ouerthrew them all and against M. Hall that the first prohiâ—ition against the mariage of Priests was not made by S. Anselme but more then a hundred yeares before he was Bishop or had any thing to do in our English Church 91. And as it is most true that S. Dunstane before S. Anselme made this prohibition so is it most false that by him first of all our English Clergy did perforce stoop to the yoke of continency as though euer before they had wiues genuisse filios filias as now we see our English Ministers to do which only is the ill collection of M. M. Halls manner of collections Hall who when he findeth any thing forbidden he forthwith inferreth that the thing fordidden was alwayes in vse before the prohibition and heere his wit no lesse fayling him then his Logicke he gathereth that because at different tymes the same was restrayned vnder two Arch-â—ishops of Canterbury that it was neuer before the tyme of one or the other in his text he sayth that the Clergy were forced to stoop vnder the yoke of continency by the first and in the margent that it was alwayes free to marry and neuer deâ—yed till the later as now we haue heard but â—oth are false and the single life of Priests is of far greater antiquity then are the tymes of these two Saints whome God raysed to take away the abuse crept in and not to alter any constant custome euer allowed or practised in the land before for the good corne was first sown in that field and the darnell after truth was before errour the continency of the Clergy of all acâ—nowledged of all practised in all tymes after â—ur conuersion approued when as their vnlawâ—ll marriage as it entred late so it endured not â—ong so one rising and soone falling and as for â—yme it could neuer prescribe so neither for â—lace could it euer get the full possession of our â—ttle Iland till these later dayes a thing so filâ—hy after a solemne vow to God to take a wise â—s it neuer appeared without the brand of infaâ—y so base as the basest only deâ—ended it the â—est withstood it of so narrow bounds as it was â—euer tollerated in Europe Africke or the Latin Church nor yet in Greece till by bad life it fell â—o schisme from schisme into open heresy and from thence vnto the thraldon of the Turkâ— vnder which now it resteth 92. Which point concerning other counâ—reys I haue proued before now I will restraine â—y speach to England alone and in a word or two proue the Clergy euer to haue beene continent and then obiter touch the cause of that abuse I meane vpon what occasion it first entred and inuegled so many in S. Dunstans tyme A negatiue argument grounded vpon manifest presumptioÌ„ and for the first I thinke this generall negatiue directly to conclude that in all the pursuit of this busines in al the prohibitions depositions censures and sentences deliuered against the incontinent we neuer reade that any of them did euer stand vpon the former custome of the Church or continuall practise therof in that behalfe or euer complained that the Bishops brought in a new law contrary to the old or that they were made Priests when that freedome was in vse approued and allowed and therfore all such prohibitions depositions censures sentences and other penaltyes made afterward to haue beene vniust iniurious and tyrannical as they could doubtles would haue pleaded had
A REFVTATION OF M. IOSEPH HALL HIS APOLOGETICALL DISCOVRSE FOR THE Marriage of Ecclesiasticall Persons directed vnto M. Iohn VVhiting IN WHICH Is demonstrated the Marriages of Bishops Priests c. to want all warrant of Scriptures or Antiquity and the freedome for such Marriages so often in the sayd discourse vrged mentioned and challenged to be a meere fiction Written at the request of an English Protestant By C. E. a Catholike Priest Libertatem promittentes cùm ipsi sint serui corruptionis Promising freedome whiles themselues are the slaues of corruption 2. Petr. 2. Permissu Superiorum M. DC XIX AN ADVERTISEMENT TO THE READER WHEREAS according to the order set downe in the ensuing Letter I had determined to adde another Paragraffe to the former three coÌ„teyning A detection of M. Halls errours and ouersights in writing I found in the pursuit therof so aboundant matter as I could not comprize it all within the narrow bounds of a Paragraffe and increasing so much vnder my hands I resolued at length to set it out a part at amounting to more then what I haue already written in answere of this Letter to M Whiting which being one entier Controuersy might perhaps better be set out alone theÌ„ conioâ—ned with other points nothing at all incident to that matter as are the other doctrinall Errours Vntruths Mistakings Impostures and other fraudulent ignorant and malicious behauiour which I am forced to detect and wherwith all the â—apsodyes of his Epistles that conteyâ— any disputable question are fraught to the full Another cause heerof was for that a Gentleman lately come out of England gaue me notice of other bookes of the same Authour which I had not yet seene and of one entituled The peace of Rome on which in particuler dependeth very much of that which I haue written in the Detection especially in refuting that most shameles assertion Decad. 3. Epist 5. that Bellarmin acknowledgeth vnder his owne hand two hundred thirty and seauen Contrarietyes of doctrine amongst Catholiks which is nothing els but 237. lyes in one assertion if he meane as he must do of points that belong to sayth and Religion and not of matter vndecided and meerly disputable in Schooles And yet further which to one not acquainted with the forhead of Heretikes may seeme incredible he auoucheth the dissensions of ProtestaÌ„ts to be only in cerimonyes of the Catholiks in substance theirs in one or two points ours in all Againe ours is in the whole cloath theirs only in the skirts c. with more to the same effect All which or at least the chiefest part I meane the disagreement of Catholiks in fundamentall points are as I suppose discussed in that worke and I cannot so well refute his words in generall vntill I see his speciall prooses that are made against our vnity and the proper subiect of euery particuler dissension Only heere to his generall charge I returne also in generall this answere That neither he nor all of his Sect set togeather can make this good and in case he be so bold in his Peace as he hath beene in his other VVritings we shall find store of most impudent vntruths for lying and detraction if it be for the aduancement of the Ghospell seem with this Man to be meritorious works and those deliuered with such audacity as if they were most certaine and vncontrollable truthes of which kind there be many discoâ—ered in the refutation of this Letter but the number that remaine is without comparison greater which when I consider togeather with his eminent ignorance I cannot but greatly admire the scarcity of learned men in our Countrey that could find no better Doctours to send to Doâ—t Conference to conclude the peace between the skirtwrangling-Brethren then M. Hall no more to be coÌ„pared with learned men then a Pedlar with Merchants a Pettifogger with Lawyers a meer Pedanticall Grammarian with graue and learned Deuines VVere the matter in Controuersy to be concluded with outfacing of lyes M. Hall might sit for Arbiter and Iudge of the whole Assembly vnles they be too shameles ouerbeare them all Of a mayne multitude which already I haue set downe in the Detection I will touch one heer and that only to discharge and cleare my selfe from that wherof I accuse him I meane of detraction and defaming his person Let this then passe for an example which so confidently he writeth in his Quo vadis or Censure of Pag. 41. Trauell where though he say that A discreet man will be ashamed to subscribe his name to that whereof he may be afterwards conuinced yet Pag. 6â— so indiscretly doth he deale as he blusheth not to write in these wordes What packets fly abroad of their Indian wonders Euen Cardinall Bellarmine can come in as an auoucher of these cosenages who dares auerre that his fellow Xauier had not only healed the deafe dumbe and blind but raysed the dead whiles his brother Acosta after many yeares spent in those parts can pul him by the sleeue and tell him in his eare so loud that all the world may heare him Prodigia nulla producimus neque verò est opus c. So M. Hall And I appeale to all the Ministers of Dort whether they euer heard a more impudent vntruth For first Acosta was neuer in the East Indyes at all nor Xauier in the VVest and how then would Acosta spend many years in those parts where Xauier had liued This is one lye and that so long a one as it reacheth as far as it is from the East to the VVest or from the Artick to the Antartick Pole Againe so far is Acosta from pulling Bellarmine by the sleeue or disauowing the miracles of Xauier as in this very worke he doth both acknowledge confesse them for true For thus he writeth Conuertamus oculos in Lib. 2. 10. saeculi nostri hominem B. Magistrum Franciscum virum Apostolicae vitae c. Let vs cast our eyes vpon a man of our age on B. Maister Francis Xauier a man of an Apostolicall life of whome so many so great miracles are recorded by many and those approued witnesses as there are scant recounted more or greater vnles it be of the Apostles of any VVhat haue M. Gaspar Berzaeus other not a few of his CoÌ„panions done in the East Indies How much haue they aduanced the glory of Gods power in conuerting that people by their miraculous workes So far Acosta Out of whose wordes deliuered in so plaine honourable tearmes of this Blessed Man Francis Xauier the Reader may see whether he were a fit witnes to be produced against the miracles of the sayd Father whether he pull Bellarmine by the sleeue and cry so loud in his eare that all the world may heare him or rather whether M. Hall do not most lewdly lye and maliciously abuse his Reader in applyirg that to Xauerius which Acosta spake only of himselfe and others then liuing with him in
Perù Brasil Mexico and the adioyning coasts and assigneth the causes of their not working miracleâ— as I shall more fully declare when I shall come to handle this in the Ditection And euen now there is come to my handes a booke written by one Collins in defence of Doctor Andrews If Spenser the Poet were liuing he might very well make another Collins Slowt vpon his slowterly discourse so loose loathsome as will weary the most patient Reader and withall so ignorant railatiue and lying as I wonder that it was permitted by priuiledge to come to the Presse was not suppressed with his other which he wrot against the Reuerend Father Andraeas Eudemon-Ioannes He is fortunate in the choice of his Aduersaryes for be singles out such as are singular but in the combat he is weake simple and a meere pratler this he shall better heare from him whome it concernes then I shall need now to declare Only this I must note in him that Et Platanus Platanis Alnoque assibilat Alnus One egg is not more like another then are these Ministers in lying For this seely fellow in his Epistle to his Maiesty of all others which euer I saw written to a Prince the most beggarly thus writeth of Cardinall Bellarmine He in his deuoutest Meditations of all others his booke last set forth de aeterna Felicitate sayth M. Collins will not excuse Kings from being murthered de iure not only de facto only he passes it ouer as a casus omissus happily because auouched in his other Volums more peremtorily So he Insinuating that Bellarmine alloweth the murthering of Kings not only de facto but also de iure for what other sense can his words beare that he wil not excuse Kings from being murdered de iure And againe when afterwards he sayth The Cardinall not content with a death de facto implyes that they may be slaine de iure too but that it doth approue it which is so far from the Cardinalls meaning as he insinuateth the quite contrary For hauing compared the Saints in heauen with Kings on earth he commeth after to shew wherein the Saints do excell them and putteth this for one point that earthly Kings are subiect to many calamityes from which the Saints are exempted and deliuereth the difference in these wordes Denique potest etiam Rex subditos vinculis carcere exilio flagris morte mulctare sed potest etiam Rex de facto loquor non de iure vinciri carceri mancipari exilio vulneribus Lib. 1. c. 5. morte mulctari Id verum esse probauit Iulius Caesar Caius Nero Galba Vitellius Domitianus c. To conclude a King may also punish his Subiects with fetters prison banishment whippings and death but the King also may be fettered I speake de facto not de iure may be committed to prison may be punished with banishment wounds and death This did Iulius Caesar find to be true this Caius Nero Galba Vitellius Domitian c. So Bellarmine And let any heere iudge whether the Cardinall speaking de facto and not de iure do not graunt the one and deny the other Graunt I say that such facts haue fallen out and may vpon the wicked disposition of the people fall out againe but not that they were lawfully done VVhich is further confirmed by the other examples which he doth produce of which somâ— were good Princes as Gordian Gratian Valentinian the second and others Some also Saints as S. Edward of England S. Sigismund of Burgundy S. Wenceslaus of Bohemia and S. Canutus of Denmarke And is it possible to conceaue that the Cardinall should affirme all these to haue beene lawfully murthered And in case he had so imagined why then did he interpose that negatiue exception de facto loquor non de iure I speake of the facts which haue fallen out for certaine it is the forenamed Princes to haue beene slaine but not of the lawfullnes of their killing VVas it not trow you to excuse the Kings and accuse the murtherers For if he would haue implyed the contrary or approued it as lawfull he would neuer haue spoken in this phrase of speach but either haue concealed these words or expressed his mind in other And it cannot but moue laughter to see how this man geeth about to proue the immortality of Kings and reprehendeth Bellarmine for saying only that Kings de facto may be slaine telling his Maiesty most sonâ—ly that the Scripture leads vs to speake of Kings Princes in another strayne as if they that ought not to be violated by any mortall hand could not dye at all So this grosse flattering Parasite But where I pray you are those straynes Sure I am he must strayne hard before he find any such on our Bibles He alleadgeth the saying of Dauid speaking of the death of Saul How was he slaine as if he had not beene annoynted with oyle But doth this shew that de facto Kings cannot be slaine or rather doth it not shew the contrary For heere you haue Saul a King and yet de facto slaine which is as much as the Cardinall doth affirme But to this M. Collins very learnedly scilicet replyes that Kings dye not as Kings but as men quatenus homines non quaâ—enus Principes and so graunteth that Kings as men may be killed but not as Kings By which reason I will deny that any Minister Cobler Tinker or Tapster may be killed or dye at all Or though some of these degrees come to be promoted to the gallowes yet are they hanged as wicked men not as Ministers not as Coblers not as Tinkers not as Tapsters for els all Ministers Coblers Tinkers Tapsters should be hanged which were as you know a very pittifull case And the like happeneth although they dye in their beds for they do not dye because they are Ministers Coblers Tinkers Tapsters which are accidentall qualityes but for that they are mortall men and subiect to corruption But I leaue him to his learned Aduersary who yet as I perswade myselfe if he read any one Chapter in him will be more moued to contemne his writings then to answere them And indeed he should to much iniure himselfe in case he should seriously go about to refute such an idle froth of indigested fully or encounter with so base and babling an Aduersary whose pride ignorance rusticity are such as the one maketh him to reiect the other not to discerne the truth and the last to forget all modesty or good method in writing S. Bernard speaking of Heretikes truely sayd Nec rationibus conuincuntur quia Bernard serm 66. in Cantic non intelligunt nec auctoritatibus corriguÌ„tur quia non recipiunt nec flectuntur suasionibus quia subuersi sunt Such Ministers as M. Hall M. Collins and the like are not conuinced by reasons because they vnderstand them not nor amended by authorityes because they regard them not nor moued by persuasions because they are