Athanasius writing Theo. By this let the world iudge both of your cause and cunning A thing bone by the confession of your owne stories aboue 760. yeares after Christ vnder Constantine the 5. not long before the seconde Nicene councell is coloured with Athanasius name as written by him that was deade 400. yeares before the matter happened and not onely published with his writinges but inserted into the second Nicene councell as his worke whereas the Bishops then assembled were all aliue when this outrage was attempted by the Iewes not 24. yeares before the calling of that Synode Such fables and forgeries doe well become the quarell you haue in hand but they wil neuer proue your hauing of images to be catholike or Apostolike Phi. In deede our stories doe mention such an accident at the time which you name but if it be true though it be not so old as Athanasius we care not Theo. He that wil forge must not stick to ly lying is the very ground of forging and of a lyar we looke for no truth And yet this tale of Nicodemus Gamaliel Iames Simeon and Zacheus deliuering an image from hand to hand is not the assâ—rtioÌ„ of the author but the rude report of a poore ignorant man fathering his image on them that neuer were christians as Gamaliel was not and that 700. yeares after their deathes without any proofe saue onely by hearesay By such legends you may soone proue what you will but he that hath any spark of christian courage or wisedom will vtterly abhor these lies as feeling the grosnesse of them with his fingers Phi. Since you so much dislike our proofes that the Apostles and the Primatiue church had images can you proue they had none Theo. Doth your discretion serue you to put vs to proue the negatiue Ph. You affirm they had none our demaund is how you know that Theo. You can not proue they had and that is cause sufficient for vs to auouch they had not Phi. Is that all you can say Theo. If it were you can not voide it but we haue euident proofes that the church of Christ succeeding the Apostles had none and thence we conclude the Apostles deliuered none otherwise the church would not so soone haue reiected the tradition of the Apostles Phi. You may be sure they would not Theo. And since they did reiect Images ergo it was no Apostolike tradition Phil. Howe proue you they did reiect them Theo. The christians were charged by the Pagans for hauing no images and they not onely confessed so much but also defended it as most agreeable with the law of God In Arnobius the heathen say of the christians Cur nullas aras habent nulla tenepla nulla nota simulachra why haue they no altars no temples no open or knowen images In Origen Celsus sayth Hij non patiuntur vel templa vel aras vel simâ—lachra statuas intueri The christians can not abide to beholde temples or altars or images In making their answere the Christians agnised they had none and alleadged the law of God to proue they should haue none ClemeÌ„s sayth Nobis non est imago sensilis de materia sensili sed quae percipitur intelligentia We haue no image that is materiall and seene with eyes but onely such as is conceiued with vnderstanding And addeth this reason We are plainely forbidden to vse that deceitfull art of making images Thou shalt not make saith the Prophet the likenesse of any thing The Christians and Iewes saith Origen when they heare the lawe of God thou shalt not make to thy selâ—e any grauen image nor the likenesse of any thing neither shalt thou bowe downe to them nor serue them not only refuse these teÌ„ples Altars images of God but if neede be choose rather to dy And extending this as well to the image of the true God as of those that were no gods he sayth Nec simulachra quidem nos veneramur quippe qui Dei vt inuisibilis ita incorporei formam nullam effigiamus We reuerence not images as making no figure to God who is inuisible and without all bodily shape So Arnobius What image shall I make to God whose image if you rightfully iudge man himselfe is And Lactantius as you hearde before affirmed There coulde bee no religion wheresoeuer there was an image Phi. These spake not of the christian images but of the Pagans such as in deede we may neither worship nor haue Theo. They speake namely of themselues which were christians confessing they neither had nor might haue any image of God Phi. Not of the Godhead but of Christ his Saincts they might notwithstanding these words it is euident by Eusebius they had For the woman that was cured by Christ of the bloody issue erected an image of brasse vnto him in Cesaria where she dwelt vnder the feete of which image grewe a strange herbe healing all diseases as soone as it touched the brasen skirt of his garmeÌ„t This image remained togither with the herbe to the time of Eusebius after till Iulian the Apostata in spite of Christ brake it in peeces set vppe his own image in place thereof which God strake with fire from heauen in reuenge of his sonne so dishonored by Iulian threw the head of Iulians image from the body pitching it with the face downward into the earth blasting the rest with lightning for a terror to all that euer after should offer the image of his Sonne any reproach or misuse as you may read in Sozomene And this example is a faire warning for you that haue beheaded burned so many images of Christ his Sainctes within this Realme Theo. This image the woman that was healed erected in the citie where she dwelt as a monument of the mighty power which our Sauiour had shewed on her she being then an heathen not instructed in religion thinking thereby to prouoke others to harken after him seek for his help as she had done And when many trusted not her words it pleased God not only to ratify her report as true but to shewe the Gentiles by the wonderfull euent of the herbe there growing what vertue was in his sonne to cure all their griefs thereby to lead them the rather to beleeue in him that they might be saued by him In this wee dispraise not the womans purpose minding to celebrate the benefit which shee receiued at our Sauiours handes the best way that she then knew we honor the goodnes of God in preparing the hearts of vnbeleeuers by meanes of this miracle to bee ready to imbrace his Sonne detesting the wickednes of Iulian that to discouer his contempt of Christ and malice against Christ whose faith he had openly reâ—ounced amongst other villanies which hee offered caused the Pagans in a triumph to draw this image about the streetes breaking it in
to this infection might perceiue the way to recouer their former health temperatly that the enimy should not thinke himselfe rather illuded then aunswered Which if it please your most excellent Maiestie to like alow that it may passe to the hands of your people I trust in Christ that such as haue any feare of God before their â—yes and care of life to come will hold themselues satisfied and the rest be better aduised before they runne headlong into that extreeme perdition of bodie soule and horrible downefall of disobedience and infidelity to God and their Prince The king of kings and Lord of Lordes blesse and preserue your Maiestie and as hee hath begun a good and glorious worke in you and in this Realme by you so continue the same by lightening you with his holie Spirit and defending you with his mightie arme as hee hath doone from the daie that hee chose you to bee the Leader and Guider of his People that you maie long keepe them in trueth and peace by the assistaunce of his grace to the praise of his glorie increase of the Godlie and griefe of his and your enimies Euen so Lord Iesus Your Maiesties most humble and dutifull subiect THOMAS BILSON THE GENERALL CONTENTS of euerie part The first part Examineth all the proofes and places of the Iesuits Apologie their forsaking the Realme and running to Rome what aid the Fathers sought at Rome and how the Bishop thereof in all ages hath beene resisted the intent of his Seminaries and vertues of his Clergy The second part Prooueth the Princes supreme power to commaund for truth within her Realme and the Pope to haue beene a duetifull subiect to the Romane Emperors Ecclesiastical Lawes for eight hundred yeares and vpward answereth the Iesuites authorities and absurdities heaped against the Princes regiment searcheth the safest way for the Princes direction in matters of religion and concludeth the Pope in doubts of doctrine to be no sufficient nor superiour iudge The third part Refelleth the Iesuits reasons and authorities for the Popes depriuing of Princes the bearing of armes by subiects against their Soueraignes vpon his censures declareth the tyrannies and iniuries of Antichrist seeking to exalt himselfe aboue kings Princes conuinceth that no deposition was offered by the Pope for a thousand yeres after Christ and none agnised by anie Christian Prince vntil this present day The fourth part Sheweth the reformation of this Realme to be warranted by the woord of God and the auncient faith of Christs Church and the Iesuites for all their crakes to bee nothing lesse than Catholikes To the Christian Reader IT is some time since good Christian Reader that lighting on the Iesuits Apologie I receiued the same with purpose to refute it if the matter so imported Perusing it ouer I found it curiouslie penned with picked termes and beautified with plausible and popular persuasions reasons but as for substaÌ„ce or learning or weight of proofe I saw nothing in it that should occupie a meane Scholer the space of two daies Laying that booke therefore aside I determined at mine own choice and libertie to handle the matters there most impugned I meane the othe and the Princes supremacy in such sort as men of meane capacitie abused by their secret whisperinges and open raylings might plainly perceiue both the Princes power to commaund for truth to be lawfull and good and the Iesuits cauils impugning the same to be vaine and childish As I was in this resolution saw no cause for that I should refute no direct aduersarie to make more hast than both health which was not great businesse which I cannot want would suffer me there hapned an iniurie to bee offered to the inheritance of the College where I am by a false title deriued from before the foundation of the house and so strengthened on euery side with auncient deedes and euidence that the forgerie was hard to bee discerned and harder to be conuinced but by infinite searching in the muniments of many churches and Bishopricks as well as in our owne and re-examining sundrie large and laborious commissions which they had taken out before my time to testifie the keeping and iustifie the deliuering of those suspected deedes and ligiers To the deâ—ecting and impugning of this no person was or would be vsed I speake for the paines and not for the skill but my selfe the cause was so huge the comparing of the circumstances and contrarieties both of deeds and witnesses so tedious the proofe so perplexed and intricate and the daunger so neerely touched the whole state of the house I was forced for two yeares to lay all studies aside and addict my selfe wholy first to the deprehending and then to the pursuing of this falsehood No sooner had I breathed from this vnwoonted trauell and betaken my selfe to my former purpose but my happe was to light on the Iesuites Defence of English Catholikes not hauing the Authors name but in order of writing and phrase of speech resembling right D. Allen the maker of their Apologie Looking earnestly into the contents thereof I perceiued the pen-man to haue such confidence in his tongue that hee doubted not but to ouerrule the world with words his pretensed policies So far he wadeth in other mens causes and common wealthes So boldly he pronounceth what himselfe pleaseth of Popes and princes and of their titles Counselles Lawes and actions neither alloweth hee any man to bee religious or catholike but such as him-selfe liketh and euerie-where hee sheweth a speciall care to smooth and stroke his holy Fathers indeuors and censures actes and iudgementes warres and wickednesse with termes of the greatest deuotion and reuerence subiecting all things vnder his feete inuesting him with both swords and suffering no man king nor Cesar to haue assurance of honor or life longer than he kneeleth downe and adoreth the image of the beast In this maiestical course surrly conceit hee goeth on thinking he can captiuate kingdomes with the volubilitie and intemperauncy of his tongue which is so swift to furnish a lie that he disdaineth the basenesse plainesse of trueth The saucinesse and egernesse of that Defence I was then and am yet persuaded to ouerskip as hauing learned that princes affaires and actions are aboue my vocation and wholy without my profession neither doe I thinke it lawfull for priuate men rashly to speake or possible for them vprightly to iudge of Princes doinges vnlesse they be fully acquainted with the secretes and circumstances of the things which Princes vse not to commit to many nor to any but those that are of their counsell I therefore then did now do determine to leaue this peremptorie prater whosoeuer he be to his own vaine knowing that besides open rightes and titles secret preuentions are often vsed betweene Realmes and sometimes reuenges which Magistrates by lawful meanes may procure Onely the Popes power to depriue Princes which with all his skill learning
For Noli te extollere sed esto Deo subditus exalt not thy selfe but bee subiect to God you say Exalt not thy selfe aboue thy measure and suppresse the rest which should declare when a Prince exalteth himselfe aboue his measure to wit when he is not subiect to God The next wordes which you bring When didst thou euer heare most clement Prince that Lay men haue iudged Bishops are not found Ibidem as you quote them that is Epistola 33 ad sororem but Epistola 32 ad Valentinianum Imperatorem And In causa fider In a matter of faith which Ambrose addeth you leaue out in the first sentence though you double it at y◠latter end These scapes I will winke at and come to the words themselues Thinke not thy selfe to haue any Emperial right ouer diuine things Neither do we say Princes haue for an emperial right is to commaund alter and abrogate what they think good which is lawful neither for men nor Angels in diuine matters Palaces are for Princes and Churches for Priests this was truely saide if you know not the reason Churches were first appointed for publike praier and preaching which belong to the Priests and not to the Princes function And for that cause Bishops were to teach Princes which was the right faith Princes were not to teach the Bishops much lesse to professe thēselues iudges of trueth as Valentinian did when he said Ego debeo iudicare I ought to bee iudge whether Christ be God or no for that was the question between the Arrians and Ambrose and that was the word which S. Ambrose stoutly but wisely refused When we say that Princes be iudges of faith bring S. Ambrose against vs and spare not but we bee farther off from that impietie to make men iudges ouer God than you be Doe you not make the Prince iudge of faith Theo. You know we do not Phi. Produce not vs for witnesses we know no such thing Theo. Your own acts shall depose for vs if your mouthes will not If we make Princes to bee iudges of faith why were so many of vs consumed not long since in England with fier and fagot for disliking that which the Prince and the Pope affirmed to be faith Why at this day doe you kill and murder elsewhere so many thousands of vs for reiecting that as false religion which the kings princes of your side professe for true If wee make Princes iudges why do we rather loose our liues than stand to their iudgemēts Your stakes that yet be warm your swords that yet be bloodie do witnes for vs and against you that in matters of faith we make neither Prince nor Pope to be iudge God is not subiect to the iudgemēt of man no more is his trueth Phi. What power then do you giue to Princes Theo. What power so euer we giue them we giue them no power to pronounce which is trueth Phi. What do you then Theo. Neuer aske that you know Haue we spent so many words and you now to seeke what we defend But you see S. Ambrose maketh nothing for you And therefore you picke a quarell to the question Phi. S. Ambrose would not yeeld Valentinian the Emperour so much as a Church in Millan and when hee was willed to appeare before the Emperour in his consistorie or els depart the Citie he would do neither Theo. You care not to fit your purpose though you make S. Ambrose a sturdie rebell You would fayne find a president to colour your headynes against the Prince but in Ambrose you can not his answere to Valentinian was stout but lawfull constant but Christian as the circumstances of the facts will declare Valentinian a yong Prince incensed by Iustina his mother and other Eunuches about him willed Ambrose to come and dispute with Auxentius the Arrian in his consistorie before him and hee would bee iudge whether of their two religions were truest and which of them twaine shoulde bee Bishop of Millan Auxentius or Ambrose otherwise to depart whither he would To this Ambrose made a sober and duetifull answere in defence of himselfe and his cause and gaue it in writing to Valentinian shewing him amongst other things that he was yong in yeres a nouice in faith not yet baptised rather to learne than to iudge of bishops that the consistorie was no fit place for a priest to dispute in where the hearers should be Iewes on gētiles so scoffe at Christ the Emperour himselfe partial as appeared by his Law published before that time to impugne the truth As for departing if he were forced he would not resist but with his consent he could not relinquish his church to saue his life wtout great sinne And because Auxentius his companions vrged this that the Emperour ought to be iudge in matters of faith Saint Ambrose followeth and refelleth that word as repugnant not onely to the diuine Scriptures but also to the Romane lawes Conclusus vndique ad versutiam patrum suorum confugit de Imperatore vult inuidiam commouere dicens iudicare debere adolescentē catechumenū sacrae lectionis ignarum in consistorio iudicare Auxentius driuen to his shiftes hath recourse to the craft of his forefathers seeking to procure vs enuie by the Emperours name and sayth the Prince ought to bee iudge though hee bee yong not yet baptized and ignorant of the Scriptures and that in the Consistorie And to the Emperour himselfe Your father a man of riper yeeres sayde It is not for mee to bee iudge betweene Bishoppes doeth your clemencie nowe at these yeeres say I ought to bee iudge And hee baptized in Christ thought himselfe vnable for the weight of so great a iudgement doeth your clemencie that hath not yet obtayned to the Sacrament of baptisme chalenge the iudgement of fayth whereas yet you knowe not the mysteries of fayth No man shoulde thinke mee stubburne when I stand on this which your father of famous memorie not onely pronounced in woordes but also confirmed by his Lawes that in a cause of fayth or ecclesiasticall order hee shoulde be iudge that was both like in function and ruled by the same kind of right For those be the words of the Rescript his meaning was hee woulde haue Priests to bee iudges of Priests Then follow the wordes which you cite When euer didst thou heare most clement Emperour in a cause of fayth that Laymen iudged of bishops Shall wee so bend for flatterie that we should forget the right or duetie of Priests and what God hath bequeathed to me I should commit to others If a Bishop must be taught by a Layman what to follow let a Lay man then dispute or speake in the Church and a Bishop be an auditor let the Bishop learne of a Layman But surely if we suruey the course of the diuine Scriptures or auncient times who is there that can deny but in a cause of faith in a
Theo. That doth rather fasten than shake my conclusioÌ„ For if Cyprian the Bishops of Africa when their cause was not good resisting the Bishops of Rome both in words deeds were taken accounted in the Church of God for Christian Catholike Bishops yea Cyprian the chiefe leader of them and most earnest against him for a worthie Father glorious Martyr how much more then in a right and iust cause might the Bishops of Rome be lawfully resisted in those dayes The which I may likewise conclude by the next example where the Bishops of Rome were not onely resisted but at length forced to yeelde to Flauianus although their strife with him at the first seemed to carry some reason Phi. Did they not wel to reiect him that was made Bishop against his oth Flauianus was one of those that were sworne neither to seeke nor to accept the Bishopricke of Antioch if they were chosen till Miletius Paulinus were both dead that thereby the Church of Antioch which before was diuided in two partes vnder two Bishops might be ioyned togither and vnited in one and hee vpon the death of Miletius whiles Paulinus yet liued not respecting his oth was content to take the place Theo. I sayde there was some cause for the Bishoppes of Rome to refuse him and yet notwithstanding the goodnesse of their quarrell and sharpenesse of contention which Damasus Syriâ—ius Athanasius and Innocentius maintayned against him all the Churches of the East of Asia Pontus Thracia and Illyricum tooke part with Flauianus defended his election and receiued his communion though the Bishops of Rome would do neither And Theodosius the elder a very religious Emperour hauing the courage and wisedom of Flauianus in admiration and seeing the number of Churches that did communicate with him willed him to returne feede the Church or flock committed to his charge Against whom when the Bishoppe of Rome made a long accusation the godly Prince vndertooke his defence pleaded his cause and exhorted them to knit their Churches togither and to leaue striuing and extinguish those foolish brables And so was the Bishop of Rome glad to giue ouer the quarell which hee and three of his predecessors had for the space of seuenteene yeares egerly followed against Flauianus How little Cyrillus esteemed the communion of the Bishop of Rome doeth well appeare by his answere to Atticus where hee vehemently diswadeth that Chrysostoms name after his death should be put in the Catalogue of Bishops notwithstanding Innocentius and the West Bishops would not communicate with Egypt or the East partes till that were obtayned Phi. It was a fault in Cyrill to be so vehement against Chrysostom in fauor of his vnkle Theophilus the chiefe doer of all this and that ouersight he after corrected by yeelding to that which before he rufused Theo. What moued Cyrill at the first to withstand and after to yeeld I neede not care you may not iudge were the cause good or bad to my purpose all is one this is it that I vrge neither Cyrill nor Atticus nor the Churches with them were reputed schismaticall for lacking or neglecting so long time the communioÌ„ of the Bishop of Rome though the matter they stood on were skant sound Phi. You should bring vs an example where the Bishop of Rome was withstood by a Councell the factes of priuate men carie not so great credit as when they bee done in a publike Synode Theo. The men that I haue named vnto you were no such obscure persons that you neede doubt of theyr credit They were for their calling and function Bishops and Patriarkes for their learning and holinesse lightes in the Church of Christ and are so taken to this daie Neither as you suppose were they alone in these actions but had the Bishoppes and Churches adioyning to take their partes and did these thinges which I spake of in open Councell Polycrates had with him a Councell in Asia when he resisted Victor and Ireneus had likewise an other in Fraunce when he reproued him Cyprian and 84. Africane Bishops ioyned together in the CouÌ„cel of Carthage against Stephanus With Flauianus as Sozomene writeth were the Bishops of Syria Phenica Armenia Cappadocia Galatia as Theodorete sayth all the Churches of Asia Pontus Thracia Illyricum besides all the East Churches That which Cyrill defended was done by two Councels allowed by the three Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople Antioche and their Prouinces And therefore these are no priuate men nor matters as you pretend but thinges done in open Synodes by no meane Bishoppes And yet to content your mind you shall see where the Bishop of Rome clayming farre lesse authoritie than hee doeth at this day was openly resisted in a Councell of 217. Bishops to his immortall shame and your vtter ouerthrow in this cause Sozimus Bishop of Rome sending his Legats Faustinus Philippus and Asellus to the sixt Councell of Carthage in fauour of Apiarius a Priest that fled to Rome for ayde against Vrbanus his Dioecesane which had taken both his function the communion from him for his lewdnes amongst other things gaue them in charge to clayme this prerogatiue for him and his See that if any Bishoppes were accused or deposed and appealed to Rome the Byshoppe of Rome might either write to the next Prouince to determine the matter or send some from his side to represent his person and to sit in iudgement with the Bishoppes And to proue this lawfull he cited in writing vnder his hande a Canon of the Councell of Nice tending to that effect The Godly fathers assembling themselues out of all Africa to the number of 217. and finding no such Canon in their bookes either Greeke or Latine wrate to the Patriarkes of Alexandria Constantinople and Antioche for true and authentike copies of the Nicene Councell and seeing their owne copies agree worde for worde with those that were brought and no such thing to bee found in any Canon there first by their decree cut off appeales to Rome and secondly by their letters traduced the Bishop of Rome as well for his ambition as forgerie Phi. An old broken matter often alleaged and offen answered Theo. You could doe litle if you could not crake but that will not serue your turnes you must spare vs a better answere In deede Bonifacius the second doeth answere the matter in this sort Aurelius praefatae Carthagiensis ecclesiae olim Episcopus cum collegis suis instigante Diabolo superbire temporibus praedecessorum nostrorum Bonifacij Caelestini contra Romanam ecclesiam cepit Aurelius once Bishoppe of Carthage with his collegues amongst whom was S. Austen with many other learned and Godly fathers in the time of Bonifacius and Caelestinus our predecessours began through the instigation of the Deuill to be malepart with the church of Rome If you take this for an answere so is it other I know
do the like Thirdly since the Romane Emperors were wōt to cōmand him what reason cā you bring why christiā princes shold not now restrain him And last of al if you forget not your self my promise was to shew that not in the primatiue Church only when there was no question of his obedience to religious princes but in latter times when the Bishop of Rome presumed to be Lorde ouer all he was controled resisted by those Councels Common-wealthes which your owne Church neuer durst reiect as schismaticall and hereticall Phi. In some thinges they withstood him but not in all thinges as you doe Theo. That shift is litle worth If resistāce be lawful in part why not in al whē iust cause requireth Phi. In matters of faith they neuer resisted Theo. That maketh our resistāce the more lawful They withstood him for an earthly policy we for Christes glorie they for externall discipline we for Apostolicall doctrine Therefore if they might lawfully resist much more may we But my demand is onely whether you see that as the Bishop of Rome withstood others in the regiment of the Church so many Councels Countries Princes Prelats withstood him as the places which I bring conuince Phi. What if they did Theo. First did they that which I speake or no Phi. Grant they did Theo. Then your examples conclude nothing against vs. For as hee resisted others in causes Ecclesiasticall so did others resist him and our examples inferre against you that your owne Church neuer obeied that supreme power and infallible iudgement which he now claimeth you now yeeld to flatter him with Phi. They tooke him for Christes Uicar and Peters successour Theo. How they tooke him in latter ages it greatly skilleth not the learned and ancient Fathers call him Peters successor Christes Uicar they neuer call him And graunt he be Peters successor that importeth no supremacie Phi. Doth it not Theo. No mary doth it not You must first proue that Peter was supreme gouernour of all the Church which you shall neuer do Next you must proue that this dignitie was not proper to Peters person but common to Peters successour which we denie For Peters primacie was giuen him in respect of the confession which he made not in respect of the place which he should inioy Lastly you must shew which of Peters chayres must haue Peters priuiledge that is why Rome rather than Antioch These three points when you iustly proue we will say more to your vaine pretences and glorious titles in the meane time till occasion serue to make farther triall you may go forwarde with the rest of your Apologie which if it be like this it will do your friendes litle good and your foes lesse hurt Phi. You disgrace that which you can not disproue Theo. Wee neede no better disproofe than the sober reading of your insolent and impertinent discourses purposely made to commend and aduaunce your selues and your adherentes aboue the skies Phi. Where do we so Theo. Almost in euerie leafe For example this whole chapter is spent in flattering your holy Father praising his deuout citie The next hath nothing else but the commendation of your selues your Seminaries as if the proclaiming of his your vertues were the chiefest point of his and your faith Phi. You say not well we do not so Theo. Reade the places you shall finde them full of these and such like flowers To Rome Whatsoeuer is learned wise vertuous of all the most famous Vniuersities Monasteries Societies and Celleges through the world is recuiled as to a continuall mar◠of all kinde of doctrine prudence And againe These and such other high experiments with innumerable examples of vertue and deuotion shall this Romane institution giue to our Countrimen vnder the famousest teachers gouernours of youth in our age or som worlds before Who otherwise would admire their pety masters at home the cause of al error ignorāce Ar you not liberal in praising your selues Belike you thinke with your only looks to daūt all the Diuines preachers of Englād as if not a fewe wandring friers craking Iesuites but some new Cyprians or famous Augustins were lately arriued at your Romish Seminarie But let passe your follies come to your autorities To what end aleage you S. Hierō Phi. S. Hierom calleth Rome the place of greatest faith and deuotion Theo. What then Ierusalem was first a faithfull Citie yet in time became a shamelesse strumpet Niniueth was spared for her true repentance afterward plagued for her robberies and lies What Rome was then doeth no way proue what Rome is now You must send vs better reasons from Rome for Rome before you shall perswade vs that there is at Rome such store of learning and vertue as you vaunt of If Rome be changed since Hierom wrate your conclusiō halteth though his wordes goe right Phi. That change you must proue Theo. Alas good Sirs begin you now to doubt whether Rome be changed Reade your owne Friers Monkes and Abbots and you shall soone be resolued in that doubt Frier Mantuan sayth shortly but truely Viuere qui sanctè cupitis discedite Roma Omnia cum liceant non licet esse bonum You that wish to liue godly depart from Rome al things are there suffred saue godlines Mathew Paris a Monke of S. Albons euery where toucheth the vertues of the church of Rome saith they were known to the verie miscreants For when y◠Souldan of Iconium desired to be baptised from Rome his nobles by reason of so many vices abounding at Rome sayd Howe can there come sweet and salt water from the same fountaine whence Christians should fet the water of righteousnes there they find a poysoned pudle And in the yere of our Lord 1241 he sayth The vnsatiable greedines of the Church of Rome so increased confounding right and wrong that without shame as a common impudent harlot she lay open for money to euery man counting vsurie for a small fault and Symonie for none But no man more liuely describeth the maners and dispositions of the latter Romanes than Bernard Abbot of Clareuallis and that not priuily behind their backs but openly to their faces forewarning Eugenius the pope what to looke for at their hands Quid tam notum seculis quà m proteruia fastus Romanorum Gens insueta paci tumultui assueta Gens immitis intractabilis vsque ad huc subdi nescia nisi cum non valet resistere Experire paucis nouerim ne ego gentis mores Ante omnia sapientes sunt vt faciant mala bonum autem facere nesciunt Impij in deum temerarij in sancta seditiosi in inuicem emuli in vicinos inhumani in extraneos Hij sunt qui subesse non sustinēt praeesse non norunt superioribus infideles inferioribus importabiles inuericundi ad petendum ad negandum frontosi
pleasure wisedome to vtter of himselfe nor any hauing iust cause to deeme worse or otherwise of his doings than is agreeable to his high calling approued good affection to our Country his great vertue and the euidence of the thing Theo. In trueth we seeke for your founders intentions not for yours and therefore this onely sentence in all your third chapter maketh toward the matter in question which you conclude with an ignoramus protesting his holines intentions to be vnknowen to you Phi. Uerily so are they Theo. You may winke at noone dayes say you see nothing yet this you know that subiects should not leaue their prince vpon euery dislike and flee the Country much lesse linke and ioyne themselues with the Princes foes least of all take the crowne from the Princes head at the Popes becke His secretes though you search not these doings you may soone discerne Phi. We be farre from any such dealings Theo. As farre as water from the Tems Do none flee the realme to come to your Seminaries Phi. They may flee that be persecuted Theo. Doth the prince persecute children in Grammer schooles Phi. That in cōscience were too much Theo. Yet you confesse Grammer scholers from al parts of the realme haue yeelded you many youthes many gentlemens sonnes specially aduenture ouer to you without their parents consent and sometimes much against their wils And think you this lawful to entice children from their parents subiects frō their Prince to be infected by you before they can iudge of you Phi. We do not entice them to come but instruct them when they come Theo. Remember you not your third purpose was to draw into these Colleges the best wittes out of England So that your owne wordes conuince you to be drawers which is all one with enticers of boyes from their schooles of childrē from their parents and this I winne you can hardly defend to be Catholike Besides your purpose was to draw for this is your terme those that were desirous of exact education or had scruple of conscience to take the oth of the Queenes supremacie or that misliked to be forced to the ministerie or that were doubtful whether of the two religions were true So that your Seminaries be not only receits for such as be lightly touched by the lawes of this Realme but harbours for all that bee desirous scrupulous dislykers or doubters that is in effect baits for all mens appetites marts for all mens purposes that be any way greeued with the State or affect nouelties Next that you be fedde and clothed at the Popes expences and in such thraldome to the Popes agent your superiour as you call him that you will and must accept his voice as a warrant from heauen and an oracle of Christ since you proclaime it we need not proue it And this is to be right of the Popes fold and familie whose hatred and hostilitie to the Prince and this Realme how deadly and daily it hath been and is England Ireland yea Rome it selfe can witnes and if you would dissemble neuer so deeply you neither are nor can be ignorant Lastly what you thinke and teach of her Maiesties right to the Crowne since Pius the fift gaue foorth his Bull to depriue her of the same if Sanders monarchie Bristoes motiues Campions Parsons dispensation did not fully conuince the answere of your fellowes vpon their examinacions at their araignements your refusal to speake when you be required and ambiguous maner of speaking when you be therto pressed do plainely shew you that you thinke that which you dare not vtter teach more than you would haue known Or if that which is past be not proofe enough for your better discharge let vs haue your answere at this present Is her Maistie right and lawfull Queene of this Realme notwithstanding the Pope did or doe depose her Phi. You now digresse from our purpose Theo. Then belike obedience to the magistrate doth not stand with your purpose Phi. Your question is very dangerous Theo. No danger at all if you be good subiects Phi. As good subiects as you for your liues Theo. And as Bristowe saith better saue that crakes be common with Iesuites But this is a shrewd signe of an ill subiect to refuse to confesse your rightfull Prince Phi. Wee be not Iudges betweene the Pope and the Queene Theo. So said Campion at the kings bench but til you make vs some directer answere geue vs leaue to take your seminaries if not for schooles of treason yet at least for nourceries of disobedience Your opinion in this point if it be good why doe you not confesse it If it be nought why doe you not reuoke it Your Apologie should haue either defied it as no part of your meaning or els defended it as honest and lawfull You doe neither in this place but flattering the Pope you beleeue it and fearing the Prince you conceale it And least your dissembling should be suspected you fill this chapter with needlesse vagaries from your selues to your aduersaries from doctrine to manners from Englande to Scotland auouching what you list defaming whom you can presuming al that you dreame to be true without care without cause without shame without sense Phi. You raile Theophilus Theo. And what doe you Philander when you say The fruites of the Protestants doctrine their prophane life and manners their restlesse contentions debates and dissentions among themselues their scandals mo in those fewe dayes of their felicitie than was giuen of the true Clergie in a thousand yeres before though al the aduersaries slaunderous reports of them were Gospel as many of them bee more false than Esops Fables And againe of Scotland you say The Caluinists horrible infamous murdering of his highnesse father and more than barbarous vilany and misuse of his deerest mother whiles shee was among them the sundry detestable treasons cōtriued against his Roial person when he was yet in his mothers womb as oftē since as wel otherwise by wonted treacheries as by infecting his tender age both with their damnable heresie and with ill affection towards his deerest parents What cal you this if it bee not railing What libell could be more lewde and infamous than this Happie men are you that may thus disdaine reproch belie and reuile others and not be counted railers Touching our liues we will say litle we referre the iudgement therof to such as be sober neither doe we denie but that among so great a number as this realm yeeldeth it is easie to finde some that serue not God but their bellies and seeke not Christ but theire owne And yet I see no cause why you should ouerlash so much in excusing your selues and accusing others as if our scandals so it pleaseth you to speake were mo in these fewe daies than yours in a thousand yeres before For if those things be true which not our fauorers but
submitteth himselfe to the Princes commissioners and offereth to amend all that is amisse by the princes iudgement This lowly submission importeth an euident subiection Phi. It was a dispensation of the Popes humilitie not any part of his bounden duetie thus to doe Theo. So Gratian the compiler of your decrees falueth the matter which is as much as if you sayde the Pope by right might haue commaunded the Prince but in a merie moode for once to make sport he would needes bee iudged and ordered by the Prince Is not this a proper kind of diuinitie when the Pope protesteth his obedience to the Princes power and lawes to say the Pope speaketh in iest his wordes are but a tricke of voluntarie which he may recall or refuse when hee will If such vnlearned irreligious and vnsavory shiftes may serue for good answeres you may soone defend what religion you lift It is a very short and easie methode to be rid of all examples and histories to say they did so but it was more than needed or should haue beene done Phi. In temporall matters it might be the Pope was subiect to the Princes power but not in spirituall Theo. No man can bee both a subiect and a superiour to the Princes power A subiect is alwayes a subiect that is at al times to bee commaunded and punished by the magistrate neuer to command or punish the Magistrate Againe Leo referreth him selfe in all thinges both great and small to the Princes pleasure and censure now a subiect in all thinges is superiour in nothing yet left you shoulde cauill that ecclesiasticall causes are not expresty mentioned in this place you shall see that the Bishoppes of Rome for eight hundred yeeres and aboue were suppliants and seruants not of curtesie but of duetie to Christian Emperours and obeyed their ecclesiasticall Lawes and edicts and were commaunded and ouerruled by them in the regiment of the Church as the stories that follow shall plainely declare Donatus and his fellowes pretending that Cecilianus could not be Bishop of Carthage for many crimes falsely surmised and specially for that Felix which layed handes on him had as they sayde betrayed or burnt the scriptures not onely refused his communion and procured his condemnation in a Prouinciall Synode by lxx Africane Bishoppes but in a tumult erected an other Bishoppe besides him diuided the people from him and offering a bill of complaint against him to the Proconsull of Africke made a request to Constantine that hee woulde giue them iudges to decide the matter The Prince carefull to keepe the Church in peace did authorize Meltiades Bishoppe of Rome Marcus a Clergieman of the same Citie but as then no Bishop Rheticius Maternus and Maximus three Bishoppes of Fraunce to consider their allegations and determine the strife Where sentence passing with Cecilianus the contrarie part appealed from the commissioners to the Prince This appeale Constantine might haue iustly reiected as made from his owne delegates but seeking all meanes to pacifie the schisme commanded a greater number of their Bishoppes to meete together at Arle in France there to sit in Councell a fresh about the hearing and ending of this quarell from whome for that they likewise concluded Cecilianus to be right Bishop of Carthage the Donatists appealed as they had done from the first adding nowe that if Cecilianus himselfe were cleare yet so long as Felix was guiltie which ordered and confirmed him his election must needes bee voyde The patient and mild Emperour seeing them twise conuicted and not contented but still murmuring against the Bishoppes as partiall and dayly molesting his eares with importunate suite neuer troubled Bishoppe or Councell with the clearing of Felix but appointed Aelianus a ciuill Magistrate to search out the trueth of these later accusations in a temporall Court where Felix after diligent examination was iudicially discharged and acquitted from all suspition of that sacrilegious abusing the woorde of God Then were both sides called before Constantine to receiue iudgement at his handes without appeale who taking paynes in his owne Person to sit iudge betweene them and exactly weighing what either part could say gaue sentence with Cecilianus against Donatus making therewithall a most sharpe Lawe to punish the Donatists if they persisted in their wilfulnes as dissentious schismatikes from the Church of Christ which rigour the Christian Emperours that followed did rather increase than diminish This I thought good to report out of Eusebius Optatus and Austen somewhat the larger that the circumstaunces being fully knowen the conclusion might the better bee perceiued I trust you will not denie but the strife betweene Cecilianus and Donatus consisted both of persons and causes ecclesiasticall The parties accused and accusing were Bishoppes the faultes obiected were iust impediments of episcopall dignitie the matters in doubt were the committing and partaking of sacrilege the right election of Bishoppes the lawfull deposing of them by Synodes the needefull communion with them or schismaticall dissention from them No causes can possiblely touch the regiment of Christes Church neerer than these wel then in these causes who was supreme Meltiades or Constantine The bishop of Rome or the Emperour The prince sent commission to the Pope ioyned other collegues with him receiued an appeale from him gaue second iudges after him and in his owne person pronounced finall sentence without him the least of these facts proueth the prince superiour to the Pope and all these did that famous Emperour and his doings in this case were very well lyked and accepted in the Church of Christ. Which of these things wil you now encounter Did not Cōstantine authorize Meltiades His commission is yet extant to Meltiades Bishoppe of Rome and Marcus with these words My pleasure is that Cecilianus with ten Bishops of his accusers and other tenne of his fauourers come to Rome there to be heard before you both ioyning with you Rheticius Maternus and Marinus your collegues whom purposely for this matter I haue willed with speede to repaire vnto you S. Austen debating with the Donatists what iust exceptions they could take to so many sentences giuen against them moueth this doubt maketh this answere Should not thinke you Meltiades Bishop of Rome with his collegues haue vsurped that iudgement which lxx Africane Bishops had ended What that he did not vsurpe For the Emperour vpon motion made by you sent Bishops to sit with him as iudges and to rule that matter in euery point as iustice should leade them This we proue by the Donatists supplication and the Princes owne wordes If S. Austen defend the Bishoppe of Rome from vsurping in this case by producing vrging a commission from the prince then apparētly both the pope was authorized by y◠princes power to giue iudgemēt in a matter ecclesiastical had bin but for that warrant an vsurper Phi. S. Austen sayth that Constantine durst not be iudge of a Bishops cause Theo. At the first hee
it well beseemeth a religious Prince to commaund Bishops in such things mary this was heauie to me that my Soueraigne Lord did not rebuke him for his pride but indeuor to bow me from my purpose which in this cause stand with humilitie and sinceritie to defend the Gospel and Canons Hee rather is worthie to bee threatned with your Maiesties commandement which refuseth to be subiect to the Canons he to be repressed which offereth a wrong to the vniuersall Church Let my Lord I beseech him somewhat respect me being his own whom he hath alwayes fauored aboue others which am also very desirous to yeeld him obedience and yet am I loth to be conuicted in that last fearfull iudgement of ouer much negligence Let my Soueraign Lord voutsafe to sit iudge in this matter himself or els to make him to surcease his inteÌ„t I as obedieÌ„t to my Lords precepts haue gentlely written to my said fellow Bishop humbly warned him to forgo that vaine title As much as in me lieth I am readie to obey the commandement of your Maiestie yet for that the cause is not mine but Gods not I alone but the whole church is troubled let my gracious Lord launce the right place where the wound is and subdue the patieÌ„t that resisteth him with the strength of his imperiall power Againe when Maximus was ordered Bishop of Salona within Gregories Prouince yet without Gregories knowledge thus he coÌ„planeth of him to Constantia then Empresse The Bishop of Salona was ordered neither I nor my respoÌ„sarie witting therof which thing was neuer atteÌ„pted vnder any of the Princes your predecessors Assoone as I vnderstood therof I sent him word that he should not presume to celebrate diuine seruice that he meaneth by the name of Masse vntill I heard from my Soueraigne Lords that it was their pleasure it should be so but he setting naught thereby despising me goeth on stil will not resort vnto me according as my Lords coÌ„manded him Yet I obeying their graces precept did from my hart remit vnto the said Maximus this his presumption as freely as if he had been ordered Bishop by my consent Onely other offences of his as fleshly wantonnes entrance by Simony ministring the Lords supper after he was put from the coÌ„munioÌ„ these things I can not skip vnexamined for my duties sake to God before these things could be tried my soueraign Lord preuenting me with his precept commanded that I should receiue the said Maximus at his comming with all honour This is a pitifull case that a man accused of so great crimes should be honored before hee bee cleared if the faultes of those Bishops which be committed to my charge be born out with my gracious Lords in this sort by secret fauorers vnhappy man that I am what make I here in this church Wel that mine own Bishops contemne me haue a refuge against me to secular iudges I can not but thanke God impute it to my sinnes If the Bishop of Rome despised and ouerruled in his Episcopall iurisdictioÌ„ neither plead his own supremacy nor once kick at the Princes autority but rather submit himselfe as a seruant subiect of duty to the princes pleasure so far as he might with a safe conscience to Godward besides the man so religious the matter so serious that in this case iesting were not excusable lying intollerable then may you be fully resolued that the primatiue church neuer heard of this leud arrogant presumption which the Pope now claimeth vsurpeth I meane to be master deposer of Princes but that contrariewise the Bishops of Rome themselues euen in causes Ecclesiasticall kept the lawes and obeied the precepts of Christian Emperours as of their liege Lords soueraigne rulers The wordes of Gregorie be so vehement euident to this effect that no face caÌ„ deny them no cunning auoid them You must needs seeke farther for a new distinction Your first is foolish your second is false neither of them coherent with the sacred Scriptures or auncient histories Neither was Gregory the last Bishop of Rome that yeelded obedience to the princes power in causes ecclesiastical Agatho Bishop of that See 680. yeares after Christ when Constantine the 1. sent for certaine learned skilful men of the West parts to treat confer with the Grecians in the sixt general councell about the truth of religion returned this dutiful effectual answere Most gracious Lord saith he to CoÌ„stantine ioyning with him Heraclius Tiberius his brethren your sacred letters incouraging vs to shew foorth effectually our prompt diligent seruice for perfourming that which your edict coÌ„maunded for discharge of our duty to choose the fittest that could be found in this decaied age wretched prouince we haue directed these our fellow seruants according to the most godly precept of your Maiesty in regard of obedieÌ„ce which we did ow not for presumption of their knowledge for we waxed not bold vpon their cunning but your princely fauor mildly coÌ„manding so much did incite vs our basenesse hath obediently fulfilled that which was by you commaunded And in his second epistle to the same Princesse he saith Al the Bishops of the North West partes seruants of your christian Empire giue thanks to God for this your religious intent The calling of generall Councels to debate matters of faith is a point that precisely concerneth the regiment of Christs church in that case we see the Bishop of Rome confesseth himselfe a seruant sheweth himselfe obedient to the princes precept assuring vs by plaine words and agâ—eeable deeds that this humility proceeded not froÌ„ any iesting humor or fained submission but from the singlenes of his hart in respect of his bounden duty which auerreth our assertion clearly conuinceth that the Princes authoritie was then superiour to the Popes euen in causes Ecclesiasticall which you defend to be no way pertinent to the ciuill magistrate I wil end with Leo the 4. the selfsame that first submitted himself to Lodouik the father after coÌ„firmed his obedience to Lotharius the son in these words As touching the chapters imperiall preceps of your Highnes the Princes your predecessors irrefragablely to be kept obeied as much as in vs did or dothly we by al meanes professe that we wil by Christes helpe now and for euer obserue the same if any man hath or shall informe otherwise your Maiestie may right well assure your selfe it is an vntrue tale The chapters of Charles Lodouike and Lotharius for persons and causes Ecclesiastical I repeated before to those the Bishop of Rome eight hundred and fiftie yeares after Christ promiseth and sweareth not onely present but also perpetuall obedience to the vtmost of his power without all contradiction It is easie to see which of these twaine was superiour hee that had power to make Lawes not he that was bound
the time long the Princes wise the factes knowen the Church of Christ honoured and obeyed those decrees It is no doubtfull question but a manifest trueth that the best Princes before Christ and after Christ for many yeares medled with the reformation of the Church and prescribed lawes both Ecclesiasticall and Temporall S. Augustine accompteth them not vsurpers as you doe but happie Princes that imployed their authoritie to delate and spreade the true worshippe of God as much as they coulde and auoucheth plainely that God him-selfe speaketh and commaundeth by the mouthes and heartes of Princes when they commaunde in matters of Religion that which is good and whosoeuer resisteth their Ecclesiasticall Lawes made for trueth shall bee grieuouslie plagued at Gods handes Imperatores felices dicimus si suam potestatem ad DEI cultum maximè dilatandum maiestatis eius famulam faciunt Wee count Princes blessed if they bende their power to doe God seruice for the spreading of his true worshippe as much as they can Hoc iubent imperatores quod iubet Christus quia cum bonum iubent per illos non iubet nisi Christus Emperours commaunde the selfe-same that Christ doeth because when they commaunde that which is good it is Christ him-selfe that commaundeth by them And â— little after Attendite qua manifestissima veritate per cor regis quod in manu Dei est ipse Deus dixerat inista ipsa lege quam contra vos prolatam dicitis Marke yee with howe manifest trueth by the Kinges heart which is in Gods hande GOD himselfe spake in that verie Lawe which you saie was made against you And therefore hee concludeth Quicunque legibus Impâ—ratorum quae pro Dei veritate feruntur obtemporare non vult grande acquirit supplicium Whosoeuer will not obey the lawes of Princes which are made for the truth of God is sure to beare an heauie iudgement The Princes themselues will teach you that by their power they may by their charge they should medle with matters Ecclesiasticall The authority of our lawes saith Iustinian disposeth diuine and humane thinges Thence is it that we take greatest care for the true religion of God and honest conuersation of Priestes So likewise Theodosius and Valentinian Ea quae circa Catholicam fidem vel ordinauit antiquit as vel parentum nostrorum authoritas religiosa constituit vel nostra Serenitas roborauit nouella superstitione remota integra inuiolata custodire praecipimus Those thinges which ancient Princes haue ordained or the religious authoritie of our Progenitours decreed or our highnesse established concerning the catholike faith wee commaund you to keepe them firme and inuiolable all latter superstition remoued And this they recken to be the first part of their Princely charge Inter caeteras sollicitudines quas amor publicus peruigili nobis cogitatione indixit praecipuam Imperatoriae maiestatis curam esse praecipimus verae religionis indaginem Among the rest of those dueties which the common-wealth exacteth at our handes we perceiue the inquirie of true religion should be the chiefest care of our Princely calling Valentinian the elder though at first hee refused to deale with profound questions of religion yet after hee was content to enterpose his authoritie with others and to commaund that the faith of the Trinitie should be rightly preached the Sacrament of Baptisme by no meanes doubled The blessed Bishops saith he with Valens Gratian haue made demonstration that the Father the Sonne and the holy Ghost be a Trinitie coessentiall nostra potentia eandem praedicari mandauit and our power hath commaunded the same truth to be preached And againe The bishop which shall reiterate holy Baptisme we count vnworthy of his place For wee condemne their error which treading the Apostolike preceptes vnder their feete doe not clense but rather defile those with a second washing that are once alreadie baptized Zeno seeking to reconcile the Bishops Clerkes Monkes and people of Egypt and Alexandria to the Nicene faith beginneth with these wordes For so much as wee know that onely faith which is right and syncere to bee the grounde staie strength and inuincible defence of our Empire wee haue alwaies emploied our desires endeuours and lawes that thereby wee might multiplie the holie Catholike and Apostolike church the perpetuall and vndefiled mother of our Scepter And Iustinus nephewe to Iustinian writing a publike Edict to all Christians concerning manie pointes of true Religion maketh his conclusion with these wordes Omnes eos qui contraria hijsce vel sentiunt vel sensuri sunt Anathemate damnamus alienos à sancta Dei Catholica Apostolica Ecclesia iudicamus Wee condemne them all as accursed that presentlie doe or hereafter shall thinke contrarie to these things we adiudge to haue no part in the holy Catholike and Apostolike Church of God This care to prouide and power to commaund for matters of religioÌ„ Princes as well in this realme as els where continued a thousand yeres after Christ. The Bishop of Rome himselfe 850 yeres after Christ promiseth all kind of obedience to the chapters and lawes ecclesiasticall of Lotharius his ancestours In Greece the Emperours lost not their authoritie to call Councels and establish trueth till they lost Empire and all More than thirtine hundred yeres after Christ Nicephorus highly commendeth a Greeke Emperour for his labors and endeuours in the Church affaires You haue saith he to the Prince restored the Catholike and vniuersal Church to her auncient state that was troubled with nouelties impure and vnsound doctrine you haue banished from her you haue purged the temple from heretikes that were corrupters and deprauers of heauenly doctrine not so much with a three corded whippe as with the worde of trueth You haue established the faith and made constitutions for it you haue walled about true godlines with mightie defences you haue repaired that which was ruinous Priestly vnction decaied you haue made purer than gold and by lawes and letters taught them sobriety of life and contempt of mony Wherefore their order is now sacred in the common wealth which in former times was degenerated infected with corruption of discipline and manners Yea when you sawe our true religion brought in danger by false and absurd doctrines you did most zealously and most wisely vndertake the defence of it And knowing very well that piety of it selfe the diligent care of Gods causes are the surest proppes of an Empire you tooke a diuine and passing wise course For by medling with these matters of religion you wanne great thankes of God and gaue him iust cause to bee fauorable to your praiers to direct al your doings and confirme and setle the Empire in your hands Canutus a King of this land not full 32 yeres before the conquest apparently proueth that Princes kept their authoritie to commaund for matters of religion more than a
doe that which by right we can And Cyprian himselfe did not vse the word in that sense when he saide of a Bishop Iudicari ab alio non possit cum nec ipse possit alterum iudicare hee may not bee iudged of an other since himselfe may not iudge an other And euen in his Epistle Nequâ— potest illis esse frons ad nos accedendi They can not haue the face to come vnto vs. Phi. You may thus shift out any thing Theo. It is no shift to tell you that non potest doth not euer signifie an absolute impossibilitie Nothing is more vsuall neither in sacred or prophane writers no nor in common speech than that construction of the word which we bring you Non possum quin exclamem I can not but crie out saith Cicero and facere non possum vt nihil ad te dem literarum I can not but write vnto you Where is no simple necessitie in either but an vrgent occasion only The Scriptures euerie where vse the word in like sort God saith Non potero celare Abraham quae gesturus sum Can I hide from Abraham that which I am about to doe Iacobs sonnes answere Sichem and his father NoÌ„ possumus facere quod petitis We may not do that which you request Of Iosephes brethren the text saith Nec poterant ei quicquaÌ„ pacificè loqui they could not giue him a faire word Iudas speaking of his brother Beniamin Non potest puer relinquere patrem suum and after Non possum redire adpatrem absente puero The lad can not leaue his father I can not returne to my father without him So Iephta saide to his daughter I haue opened my mouth to the Lord aliud facere non potero and I can not otherwise doe When Asaell persued Abner and would not leaue him Abner said depart least I be driuen to kill thee and then can not shew my face to Ioab thy brother Adonias to Bethsaba the mother of Salomon Speake I pray thee to king Salomon neque enim negare tibi quicquam potest for he can denie thee nothing The man of Iudah saide to the Prophet that dwelt in Bethell Non possum reuerti I can not go backe with thee though presently he did it Infinite are the places both of the olde and new Testament where the word is so vsed In the Gospell he that was in his bed when his friend spake to him said Non possum surgere I can not rise and yet he did The ghâ—st that maried a wife answered Non possum venire I can not come and yet he might The master saide to his seruant Thou canst be steward no longer when he ment he should not The Iewes â—aid of Christ This is an hard speech who can indure it which yet his Apostles did And Christ himselfe saide to his kinsmen Non potest mundus odisse vos The world can not hate you meaning it hath no cause to hate you Non potest oculus dicere manui The eie can not say to the hand I haue no neede of thee S. Paul meaneth if the eye will say truth So himselfe saith Non possumus aliquid aduersus veritatem We can do nothing against the truth that is we may or will not So saide the Sonne of God to the church of Ephesus Scio quia non potes sustinere malos I know thou canst not abide them that are euill A thowsande like there are in euery part of the Scripture but these are enough to perswade any sober mind that we bring no new nor strange interpretation of Cyprians words but such as is familiar and frequent in the bookes of God and mouthes of men Phi. The words perhaps may be so taken if that were proued to be Cyprians meaning in this place Theo. The wordes standing indifferent to both constructions yours and ours wee shall quickly see which of them commeth neerest to Cyprians meaning The sense which you make besides that it is absurde in it selfe it neither serueth the worde nor matcheth the circumstances of this Epistle nor agreeth with the maine iudgement of Cyprian in his other writinges and that which is most of all it flatly dissenteth from S. Paul who would neither warne the Romanes to feare without cause nor threaten theÌ„ with thinges impossible Phi. Proue this and expounde the place how you list Theo. Both CypriaÌ„ Paul name generally the Romanes not seuerally the Bishop of Rome from the rest Next habere accessum noteth not any corruptioÌ„ springing or not springing within theÌ„selues but only resort of others vnto theÌ„ Thirdly Cyprian complaineth that this was done and toucheth the vnshamefastnesse of heretikes for doing it which you would presse as impossible to bee done Fourthly the thing which those perfidious persons sought at Rome was not any mutation of the faith but letters of fellowshippe and communion which the Bishops of Africa denied them for their sundry disorders Last of al repeating and commending the warines of the Romanes in shunning the poyson of heretiks he shutteth vp his letter with wordes very like the former and declareth the true meaning of that he spake before Let our most beloued brethren hereafter stoutly decline and forbeare all speach and talk with such men Though I know our brotherhood there at Rome garded with your foresight and watchfull enough of themselues nec capi haereticorum venenis posse nec decipi can neither be taken nor deceiued with the venemous deuises of heretikes The right cause then why the Romanes in Cyprians time could not be caught with the baites of heretikes was not Peters priuilege or impossibilitie to er as you fondly dreame but the wisedome of Cornelius directing them and the peoples care neither to speake nor eate with any such men And this diligence remaining it was not possible that the impietie or infidelitie of others should haue accesse vnto them Other opinion of the Romanes Cyprian neuer had and as for the Bishop of Rome that he might and did erre if the wordes of Cyprian to Pompeius against the letters of Stephanus Bishop of Rome be not plaine enough in the iudgement of any reasonable man wee yeelde you the whole In reading the letters of the Bishop of Rome you may more and more perceiue saith Cyprian his errour which defendeth the cause of heretikes against the church of God And so likewise he saith of Stephanus haeresin contra Ecclesiaâ— vindicat he bolstereth heresie against the church Sua praua falsa defendit defendeth his euill and false assertion I respect not which of the twaine had the better side Stephanus or Cyprian but onely whether Cyprian had that opinion of Stephanus and other Bishops of Rome that they coulde not erre and if you haue but common sense you must say no. Much lesse did Cyprian euer meane to saie that the people
must haue Theo. The charge which Christ gaue Peter to feede his sheepe is common to all Pastours But with the mercy which Christ shewed him in conuerting him and restoring him after his fall what haue his successors to do Christ promised Peter repentance will you therefore inferre that all Popes haue the like promises Or had they as they haue not doeth this let but they may forsweare their master and loose their faith as Peter did notwithstanding this praier and promise of Christ made vnto him Phi. But they shall also repent as Peter did Theo. If you could proue that promise to pertaine vnto them as you can not yet might their errour be publike and their conuersion secret as Peters was and since they bee subiect to Peters fall namely to denie both their faith and their master though they were promised repentance with him as they bee not yet howe can you knowe what thinges proceeded from the Popes mouth erring and which from the Popes hart repenting Which vnlesse you doe you may erre with him to your eternall confusion and not repent with him for that you haue not the like promise Phi. I will bee with you to the worldes ende saith Christ and hee forsaketh those that erre So that if the church should erre this promise of his were not kept which God forbid Theo. You shew the goodnesse of your cause when you reele thus from the Pope to the church and from the church to the Pope and yet finde nothing to fitte you Christ is with euery one of his and not onely with the Pope as you would haue the place to sound and yet I thinke you will not affirm that no christian can erre Many good men haue erred euen in matters of faith and yet not beene forsaken of Christ. The longer you reason the farther you bee from prouing that the Pope can not erre For this promise concerneth him no more than it doth any other christian and perhaps not so much or if it did yet doth it not free him from errour Phi. The promise which is generall to euery member of the church concerneth him chiefly that is head of the church Theo. Keepe this head of yours till the body need it the church of Christ hath a surer and better head thā the Pope or else it were ill with her Phi. Christ we know is the head of his church and the onely head in such soueraigne and principall manner as no earthly man is or can be yet the Pope may be the ministeriall head Theo. When you proue it then say it in the meane while abuse not the word of God to serue your follies Christ dwelleth in the hartes of all that bee his by faith with them he remaineth vntill the worldes end What is this to the Pope or how doth this fense him from errour Phi. If he be Christs he can not erre Theo. This text doth not proue him to be one of Christs but if he bee then Christ is with him as hee is with all other his members Phi. And they can not erre with whom Christ is Theo. Bee these your demonstrations that the Pope can not erre to shewe for him no better nor other priuilege than that which is common to him with women children if they be mēbers of Christ And were he a mēber of Christ which as yet for ought that I see you can hardly proue hee might be deceiued in some cases of religion as well as Lactantius Irineus Cyprian and others men of great learning and good account in the church of God Phi. Our Sauiour saieth it is not possible that the electe shoulde be seduced Theo. Not possible they should bee seduced to fall from God as the wicked are Yet as they may sinne but not vnto death euen so may they erre but not vnto destruction Their errour shall either be not finall or not mortall Phi. May they that erre bee saued Theo. If they holde fast the foundation which is Christ and erre not of wilfull obstinacie but of humane frailtie why may they not bee saued S. Cyprian said of those that were before him If any of our predecessours either ignorantly or simply did not obserue and keepe that which the Lord by his example and authoritie willed his simplicitie may be pardoned by the goodnesse of God And S. Augustin said of him when an errour of his was alleadged by the Donatistes for their defence Cyprian either was not all of this opinion or he after corrected it by the rule of truth or this blemish in his most beautifull brest he couered with the teates of charity And farther alleadgeth and alloweth this saying of Cyprians Ignosci potest simpliciter erranti he that erreth of simplicity may be pardoned Of himselfe and all others S. Augustine saith Homines sumus vnde aliquid aliter sapere quà m se res habet humana tentatio est In nullo autem aliter sapere quā se res habet Angelica perfectio est We are men and therefore to thinke otherwise than the truth is is humane infirmitie or a tentation common to man To be deceiued in nothing is Angelicall perfection And therefore writing to S. Hierom and of S. Hierom he saith Prorsus non te arbitror sic legi libros tuos velle tanquam Prophetarum aut Apostolorum de quorum scriptis quòd omni errore careant dubitare nefarium Absit hoc à pia humilitate veraci de temetipso cogitatione I am fully of opinion that you would not haue your books to be read in such sort as wee do the Prophetes and Apostles of whose writinges to doubt whether they be free from all errour is wickednesse Be this far from godly humilitie and the true perswasion of your selfe So that set the Apostles aside and their writinges no man ought to thinke of himselfe that hee can not erre neither can you haue that opinion of any man without a proude false perswasion aboue mans state and against Gods truth Phi. What shall wee then saie to the promise which our Lorde made to his When hee the spirite of trueth commeth hee shall teach you all trueth Theo. If it bee referred to the Apostles then present with him as the wordes next before doe specifie I haue yet many things to saie vnto you but you can not beare them nowe wee graunt those witnesses chosen by Christ to teach all Nations were to bee furnished with all trueth and to bee established in the same but if it bee extended to all the faithfull they also shall bee ledde into all trueth needefull and requisite to saluation I meane the substantiall groundes of faith though in some questions of Religion happilie they shall not all bee like minded Phi. And what for the Churche shall shee haue no parte in this promise Theoph. If the faythfull haue the Church which is the number and collection of the faythfull must needes haue But that the
of the cause and we bring Tertullian not to commend Montanus error but to shewe what the Bishoppe of Rome did Phi. He beganne to like them but it tooke not effect Theo. Hee wrate letters of peace to the Montanists and sent them away which is enough to conuince that he erred though hee after relented from his former enterprise How Mercellinus Bishoppe of Rome sacrificed vnto Idols and denyed it when it was obiected to him and was after reproued by sufficient witnesse and condemned for it the Synod extant in your first booke of councels doth declare and Damasus writing the liues of his predecessours doth testifie the same Phi. Hee fell in persecution but he repented after and suffered for Christ as Peter did Theo. And therefore the Bishoppe of Rome may fall from the faith for so did Peter and Marcellinus but whether he shal be renewed by repentance as they were that is neither knowne to you nor beleeued of vs. Phi. We care not if they fall so they rise againe Theo. We proue they may fal Proue you they shall not choose but rise againe Phi. They haue all done so that yet are mentioned and so did Liberius whō I knowe you will name next although wee may worthily doubt whether euer hee fell or no. Theo. You and your fellowes make a doubt of it but I see no reason why you should For it is confirmed by many sounde and sufficient witnesses who both for the time when and place where they liued did and might best know the trueth of that matter Phi. Ruffinus doubteth of it Theodoretus denyeth it and Socrates inclineth rather to vs than otherwise Theo. Ruffinus sayth whether it were so or no pro certo compertum non habeo I know not for a certaintie Socrates maketh neither with it nor against it but passeth it ouer with silence And so doth Theodorete onely hee sayth the Emperour at the supplication of the Gentlewomen of Rome Flecti se passus iussit optimum quidem Liberium de exilio reuocari Suffering him self to be intreated commaunded the good bishop Liberius to bee called from banishment But this excludeth not his subscription before hee receiued his place which Sozomene writeth The Emperour at the intercession of the West Bishoppes recalleth Liberius from Beroea whither hee was banished and assembling the Bishoppes that were in his tents compelleth him to confesse the sonne of God not to bee of the same substance with his father Basilius Eustathius and Eleusius induced Liberius to consent by this meanes that some vnder the colour of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did labour secretly to confirme heresie When this was done the Emperour gaue him leaue to go to his Bishopricke Phi. Will you beleeue Sozomene before the rest that report no such thing Theo. Their silence doth not preiudice his Storie And yet Sozomene is not the first author of this report Athanasius who liued in the same age with Liberius and for whose cause Liberius was banished therefore woulde say no more than truth by him witnesseth no lesse Liberius post exactum in exilio biennium inflexus est minisque mortis ad subscriptionem inductus est Liberius after two yeres spent in banishment inclined by feare of death was induced to subscribe Damasus that was Bishoppe of Rome next after Liberius and therfore could not be ignorant of the trueth and woulde not belie his owne See saith of him Ingressus Liberius in vrbem Roman◠4. nonas Augusti consensit Constantio haeretico Non tamen rebaptizatus est sed consensum praebuit Liberius entering the citie of Rome the 4. of the nones of August consented to Constantius the heretike He was not rebaptized but hee gaue his consent Hierom brought vp at Rome in the time of Liberius and after so neere Damasus that hee was his right hand in answering all Synodal consultations and in that respect had often and easie accesse to the Recordes and monuments of the Church of Rome writeth of Fortunatianus Bishoppe of Aquileia In hoc habetur detestabilis quod Liberium Romanae vrbis Episcopum pro fide ad exilium pergentē primus solicitauit ac fregit ad subscriptionem hareseos compulit In this he is coūted detestable that he first attempted Liberius the Bishoppe of Rome going into banishment for the fayth and preuayled with him and gate him to subscribe to the Arrian heresie In his addition to Eusebius Chronicle hee saith as much Liberius taedi◠victus exilij in haereticam prauitatem subscribens Romā quasi victor intrauerat Liberius wearied with his banishment and subscribing to hereticall prauitie had entered Rome as a conquerour We aske not what authoritie you haue to counteruaile these wee knowe you haue none but what reason haue you to resist these Phi. The rest agree not with them Theo. Omission in one writer is no good argument against an other foure affirme it and euery one of thē elder and likelier to come by the trueth than Theodorete yet Theodorete doth not gainsay but only ouerskip the fact If therefore to claw the Bishoppe of Rome you refuse the consent of Athanasius Hierom Damasus and Sozomene you doe but discouer your follie to the wiser sort and hazard your credite with the simple If you receiue their testimonie touching this fact then is there no doubt but the Bishop of Rome subscribed vnto Arianisme and whether hee repented or no wee may worthily doubt since your owne Stories auouch the contrarie Phi. Which of our Stories Theo. Martinus Polonus Vincentius and others Martinus saith Constantius recalled Liberius from banishment because he had agreed to him and to the Arians and placed him againe in his Seate and so vnhappie Liberius held the Church of Peter sixe yeeres by violence then was the persecution great in the citie in so much that the Clergie men which were against Liberius were Martyred then also Eusebius a Priest suffered death for declaring Liberius to be an heretike And Damasus when he came to the Bishoppe of Rome next after Liberius with open voyce condemned Liberius and all his acts Phi. I beleeue neither Vincentius nor Martinus in this case Theo. Your not beleeuing them sheweth your selfe to be partial not their report to be false Phi. Liberius surely continued not an Arrian Theo. That he subscribed to the Arrians we proue that he recanted his subscription you can not proue Phi. No doubt he did it though it bee not written Theo. So you presume though you want all proofe for it Phi. Neuer Bishoppe of Rome died an heretike Theo. What did Honorius whom the sixt generall Councell condemned and accursed after his death for heresie Phi. That Councel is shamefully corrupted by the Grecians Theo. If the Grecians copies did differ from yours you had some reason to charge thē with corruption but since your copies confesse the same howe could the Grecians inuade your libraries without your knowledge and raze
a Prince you shall neuer shewe Omitte Abimelech whom Saul slewe for fauouring Dauid and Zachariah whom king Ioash commaunded to bee stoned not remembring the kindnes of Ioida his father that saued him aliue and set him in his kingdome Did not Salomon cast out Abiathar from being high Priest because hee tooke part with Adoniah his elder brother Where by your conclusion Salomon shoulde haue beene deposed because the high Priest thought Adoniahs right to the Crowne to bee better than Salomons Wee shewe you where the Prince remoued the Priest from his honour and primacie but you can not shewe vs that euer Priest remooued Prince in that Common wealth from his royal dignitie and yet was there then as vrgent and as euident cause to do it as you can nowe or doe pretend For all the kings of Israel were open Idolaters Iehu himselfe not excepted and yet not one of them deposed by Priest or Prophet so long as their kingdome stoode which was 253. yeeres The greater part of the kinges of Iudah euen foureteene of them were likewise plaine Idolaters as Salomon Roboam Abiam Ioram Ahaziah Ioash Amazias Ahaz Manasses Amon Ioachaz Eliakim Ioacim Zedechias and not a Priest or Prophete in Iudah so much as offered to displace or resist one of them If by Gods Lawe as you suppose the Priestes were superiour Iudges to punish such offences euen in princes howe can you excuse the high Priest and the rest to whom that charge was committed for not executing that power which God gaue them vpon these wicked and Idolatrous Princes Phi. The kinges were too mightie for them to remoue Theo. That happilie might hinder the effect but not the attempt of their iudgement We doe not obiect that they were vnable but that they neuer made the onset or offer to doe it Phi. The crueltie of those kinges caused them to forbeare Theo. That is not true Many Priests and Prophetes gaue their liues for reproouing them and more it coulde not cost to depose them Againe Manasses was caried captiue out of his Realme in the midst of his furious Idolatrie and yet in his absence and miserie no man stirred against him but his kingdome was reserued for him till hee was released out of prison and sent backe from Babylon It was therefore not for feare of death but for regard of duetie that the zealous Priests and Prophetes submitted their persons to those wicked Princes whose Idolatrie they reproued with the losse of their liues Phi. This coâ—dition was afterwarde to bee imâ—lied in the receiuing of any king ouer the people of God and true beleeuers for euer videlicet that they should not reduce their people by force or otherwise from the faith of their forefathers and the religion and holy ceremonies thereof receiued at the hands of Gods Priests and none other Insinuating that obseâ—uing these precepts and conditions hee and his sonne after him might long reigne Otherwise as by the practise of their deposition in the bookes and tyme of the kinges it afterward â—ppeareth whereof we haue set downe some examples before the Prophets and Pristes that annointed them of no other condition but to keepe and maintaine the honour of God and his worshippe depriued them againe when they brake with their Lorde and fell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like Theo. God would haue the more care to be taken in choosing a king because it was too late to refuse him when he was once chosen But I trust your selfe will not say that all those conditions which God requireth in a king are forfeitures of his Crowne if he transgresse in any of them GOD in expresse woordes and in the very same place chargeth that the king shall not haue many wiues nor many horses nor abundaunce of golde nor siluer nor lift his heart vp aboue his brethren and thinke you that if a king did offend in any of these he was to bee deposed The precept which your selfe alleage doth not onely concerne the publike sufferance of true religion but the perfect obseruance of euery point that was contained in the lawe of God Hee shall read in the booke of the Lawe all the dayes of his life that hee may learne to feare the Lorde his God and to obserue all the woordes of this Lawe and these statutes to doe them And trowe you the breach of any point of Gods Lawe was depriuation to the king You must bee voyde of all sense if you defend these thinges and yet these bee conditions or as you delight to call them couenants which God exacteth in him that shall bee king ouer his elect and peculiar people The knitting vppe of your matter is like the rest of your discourse The Prophetes and Priestes you say that annointed them of no other coâ—dition but to keepe and maintaine the honour of God and his true worshippe depriued them againe when they brake with their Lorde and fell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like It is vtterly vntrue that euer Priest or Prophete deposed Prince in the common wealthes of Israel or Iudah There were as the Scripture testifieth of the kinges of Israel nineteene and fourteene of the kinges of Iuda that brake with their Lorde and sell to straunge Gods and forced their people to doe the like Shewe that one of them was depriued by any Priest or Prophete and take the whole if you can not leaue false supposing and vaine craking and tell on your tale Phi. And this it was in the old law But now in the new Testament and in the time of Christs spirituall kingdome in the Church Priests haue much more soueraigne authoritie and Princes farre more strict charge to obay loue and cherish the Church Theo. What was in the olde Lawe you haue sayd and wee haue seene and except I bee deceiued you found there very litle for your purpose In the newe Testament I can assure you you will find lesse Where you say that Priests now in the Church haue much more soueraigne authoritie than Priests had in the law of Moses the comparing of their authorities is very superfluous Haue they more or lesse it is nothing to this question Authoritie to depose Princes they neither then had nor nowe haue which is it that you seeke for In what sort Princes are bound to loue cherish and obey the Church was declared before and neede not nowe bee repeated But the Church is neither charged nor licenced by Christ to take Princes Crownes from them Subiection is rather enioyned her in earthly thinges vnto Princes which can not stand with your thrusting them from their thrones vnlesse you take rebellion to be subiection which were very strange And depriuing them of their right is worse than rebelling against theÌ„ to defend your right which yet is not tolerable For he that resisteth them shall receiue iudgement Phi. In the Church without fayle is the supereminent power of Christes
neither you nor I be fit iudges wee must leaue that to the sonne of God howbeit I see no cause but the Pope is in farre more daunger before God for his impious abusing the keyes to warrant periurie sedition murder and treason against Magistrates than any Prince can bee for the necessarie defending of his person and Realme against such violence The keyes are to bee feared if they be rightly vsed but if you wrenche them to serue your rages you bind your selues not others whom your vngodly dealings can not hurt Your owne Lawe sayth Apud deum eius ecclesiam neminem grauare potest iniqua sententia With God his Church an vniust sentence can burden no man rash iudgement saith S. Augustine hurteth him that iudgeth rashly Phi. About 13. hundered yeres agoe Babylas Bishop of Antioch excommunicated the only Christian King or Emperour that then was as some count Numerius as others Philippe for executing a Prince that was put to him for an hostage Whereupon as euill Kings sometimes doe he martyred his Bishoppe whom S. Chrysostome others reckon for the most famous martyr of that time because he gaue by his constancie and courage is God a notable example to all Bishops of their behauiour towardes their Princes and how they ought to vse the Ecclesiasticall rodde of correction towardes them whatsoeuer befall to their persons for the same After the said Prince had murthered his owne Pastor then holie Pope Fabian for that he was the general sheepheard of Christendome or as some thinke Fabian the successour of Babylas pursued the said Emperour by like excommunication and other meanes till at length hee brought him to order and repentance Afterward Saint Ambrose Bishop of Millan excommunicated the elder Theodosius the Emperour put him to publike penance among the rest of the people commaunded him to put off his Kingly robes to leaue his Emperiall throne in the Chauncel and to keepe his place among the Laitte and prescribed him after eight monethes penance to make a temporall Law for prouiso against the occasions of such crimes as the saide Emperour had committed and for which he was excommunicated This was an other world than we now are in marueilous courage and zeale in Bishops for Gods cause much humilitie and obedience in Princes Then was there no flatterer so shamefull nor heretique on earth so impudent as to make the temporal King aboue all correction of Gods Church and their owne Pastours nothing being more common in the histories of all ages than that Princes haue receiued discipline As when Anastasius the Emperour was excommunicated by Symmachus Lotharius and Micheal Emperours by Nicolas the first and particular Princes by their prouinciall Bishops as we see in the records of all Nations Therefore we will stand only vpon more famous and auncient examples Innocentius the first excommunicated Archadius the Emperour and his wife Queene Eudoxia for that they disobayed and persecuted their Bishoppe S. Chrysostome We will report the iudiciall sentence briefly because it is much to the purpose and full of Maiestie O Emperour said Pope Innocentius well neare 1200 yeres agoe the blood of my brother Iohn Chrysostome crieth to God against thee thou hast cast out of his chaire the great Doctor of the world and in him by thy wiues that delicate Dalida persuasion hast persecuted Christ. Therfore I though a poore sinful soule to whom the throne of the great Apostle Saint Peter is committed doe excommunicate thee and her and do separate you both from the holy Sacraments commaunding that no Priest nor Bishop vnder paine of depriuation after this my sentence come to their knowledge giue or minister the said Sacraments vnto you Theo. Fairely shot but quite besides the marke Phi. Why so Theo. Our question is whether Prelates may depriue Princes of their Crownes and you proue Bishops may deny them the word and Sacraments if the cause so require Phi. Is not that to the purpose Theo. Not a whit You saw we confessed so much before without vrging What need you then spend time to proue it Phi. If you graunt that the rest will soone follow Theo. We did and doe graunt that with heretikes Apostataes be they princes or priuate men no Christian Pastor or people may communicate Phi. Wee desire no more Theo. Inferre then Phi. Ergo no Christian pastour nor people may obay them Theo. This consequent hath beene often framed and often denied and now you beginne with a long discourse to proue the antecedent Phi. The sequele is sure If we may not communicate with them wee may not obay them Theo. What els haue we doone all this while but refell that sequele We may not communicate likewise with Idolaters and Infidels May we therefore not obay them Phi. With Idolaters and Infidels we may not communicate in spirituall and heauenly things but in temporal and earthly we may and for that cause must obay them if they beare the sword Theo. We say the like for Apostataes and heretikes We may not communicate with them in diuine things but in terrene things we may and therefore we must obay them if they beare the sword Phi. Heretikes be excommunicated and so be not Infidels Theo. Infidels be without the Church of their owne accord and heretikes be put out this is all the difference betwixt them Againe your own Law saith and true it is that excommunication doth not hinder any priuate vtilitie necessitie or duty how much lesse doth it barre the publike vtilitie necessitie and dutie that subiects owe their Souereignes But these reasons were euen now opposed against you and you retired from the Scriptures to the vse and practise of of Christs Church promising as we tooke you to bring vs not the selfe same weake and lame sequele which we refuted before but some plaine and apparant example where the Church of Christ deposed Princes from their seats and discharged the subiects from their alleageance This if you doe we be readie to giue you the hearing If you runne bragging and vaunting of an other match we knowe your mishap a rotten tree will neuer yeeld sounde tymber you would if you could and because you do not wee conclude you can not Phi. Yet answere that we bring and of the sequele we will talke farther anon Theo. That I will what bring you Phi. Numerius or Philip it skilleth not whether Theodosius Arcadius Anastasius Lotharius Michael the yongest of them 700 yeres olde though they were great and mightie Princes and Emperours yet were they excommunicated by Bishops Theo. Your owne conclusion you haue suspended till anon in the mean season heare ours and that out of your owne words These Princes were excommunicated as you say but they were also serued honoured and obayed by all their Christian subiects Bishops and others as wee say and you can not denie it ergo we may serue honour and obey Princes notwithstanding they bee
with Imperante Domino pijssimo Augusto Leone à Deo coronato magno Imperatore imperij eiuâ— anno septimo In the 7. yeare of the raigne of the great Prince crowned by God Leo the Emperor our most gracious Lord. Gregorie the thirde writeth Imperante Domino pijssimo Augusto Leone Imperij eius anno vicesimo tertio In the 23. yeare of the raigne of our most religious Lord Leo the Emperor Both which letters Marianus Scotus remembreth with their dates in his accompt of times and yeares If Leo the last yeare of his life were called religious Lorde and Emperour by the Bishop of Rome how can it be true that either of the Gregories forsooke his obedience and depriued him of all his dominions in Italie long before his death Who stirred this rebellion against Leo the thirde I will not dispute The Graecians had good cause to suspect the Bishop of Rome and to thinke him to bee the verie author and contriuer of it as Zonaras doeth but that which hee did was closely doone vnder hand by conspiring priuily with other places and inciting the people by secret meanes to reuolt from the Empire As for anie open and apparant act hee was so farre from taking vppon him to depriue the Emperour by iudiciall sentence in his Consistorie that hee durst not bee knowen in this tumult to stande with the people or fauour their doinges by any publike aide or consent but seemed rather to staie them by his persuasion and to labour against that defection of theirs in the sight of others as your owne Stories doe confesse And therefore you may proue if you will by this example a rebellion of the Romanes against their Prince which the Bishoppe of Rome neither did nor durst auouch but deposition of Princes by the Popes censures which is the point that we demaunde you can not proue by this or any other president in the West partes for a thowsande yeares after Christ. Phi. You can not deny but that for defect in religion and of the churches defence the Greeke Emperors were discharged and the Empire translated to the Germanes by Pope Leo the thirde Theoph. That the Empire was deuided I doe not denie but that it was doone for defect in religion or that the Pope alone of his absolute authoritie did it both these I denie and therein though certaine Monkes and Friers of yours do slubber vppe the matter and attibute the doing thereof to the Popes sole and soueraigne power yet the truer and exacter writers of your owne side do witnesse the contrary And that first it was not doone for any defect in Religion the time when it was doone will declare The seconde Councell of Nice was celebrated in the eight yeare of Constantine and Irene as the first session of the Councell doth specifie Where not only the Legates of Adrian Bishoppe of Rome say of them-selues Nos postquam ab Apostolico Patre nostro Adriano litteras accepissemus eas ad pios nostros Imperatores pertulimus The letters which wee brought from our Apostolike Father Adrian wee deliuered to the handes of our religious Emperours Constantine and Irene But Adrian him-selfe writing to them by name saith Being lately by your godly coÌ„mandemeÌ„t aduertised of your pleasure we offred praiers thanks to almightie God for your Empire And growing to an end Haec sunt serenissimi pijssimi Imperatores These are the things most gratious godly Emperors which we haue gathered out of the Scriptures c. the which by our Apostolike relation we present to the good affection of your Maiesties with all humilitie and sinceritie beseeching your clemencie and as it were kneeling in your presence and prostrate before your feete I with my brethren make supplication request to you in the sight of God that keeping the tradition of this your most holy blessed church you wil detest the wicked rage of heretikes that you may imbrace this catholike and Apostolike church of Rome which is yours without dissolution At this Synode Constantine and Irene were acknowledged by Adrian and his Legates for Emperours of Rome and after this Synode til the diuision of the Empire there was no change of religion in Greece but the affayres of the church stoode in the same state in which they were at the time of this Synode And sure it is that Irene was wholy addicted to images for by her helpe this councel was kept images restored and yet in her raigne when she alone had the rule of all the Empire was diuided So that religion can not be pretended for the translation of the Romane Empire from the Greekes to the Germanes Againe the maine consent of your Stories is that the Senate and people of Rome did concur with the Bishop in this action their decree that he should and request that he would crowne Charles for their Emperour are expressely remeÌ„bred in the most of your writers otherwise deriuing al the power they can in these and such like cases to the Bishop of Rome Platina and Blondus saie it was done Populi Romani scito ac precibus by the decree and request of the people of Rome Nauclerus saith it was done populi Romani consensu with the consent of the people of Rome Sabellicus saith Scito rogatuque populi Romani The Pope did it by the determination and petition of the people of Rome Auentinus sayth Pontifex Senatus populusque Romanus imperâ—um transferre iure suo in Germanos Carolumque tacito Senatus consulto plebiscitoque decernunt The Bishop Senate and people of Rome conclude by a decree of the Senate and people secrete among them-selues to remoue the Romane Empire and in their owne right to deriue it vnto the Germanes and vnto Charles Sigebert shewing the time and adding the cause sayth Romani qui ab Imperatore Constantinopolitano iam diu animo disciuerant nunc accepta occasionis opportunitate quia milier excaecato Imperatore Constantino filio suo eis imperabat vno omnium consensu Carolo Regi Imperatorias laudes acclamant eumque per manus Leonis Papae coronant Caesarem Augustum appellant The Romanes which in heart were long before fallen from the Emperour of Constantinople taking this occasion and opportunitie that a woman which had pulled out the eyes of her owne sonne the Emperor had gotten the Dominion ouer theÌ„ with one generall consent proclaime king Charles for their Emperour and crowne him by the handes of Pope Leo and salute him as Caesar and Emperour of Rome Frisingensis saith of her Digna cuius diebus orbis imperium quod in manus faeminae non dignè deuenerat ad Francos transferretur She well deserued that in her dayes the Empire of the world which came into the handes of a woman by so vile meanes shoulde be translated to the Germanes Aeneas Syluius giueth an other cause that moued them no lesse than this Demum verò negligentibus Romam Graecis
and peace by his wisedome to protest and keepe in safetie their wiues children parentes goodes and liues I will not examine the Popes diuinitie in that hee sayth Princes haue their powers of the people which the Scripture sayeth they haue of God this is plaine hee claimeth no power to depose Princes but alleadgeth an example that the people may chaunge their king when hee is not able for frensie or follie to do the duetie of a king And by that concludeth it lawfull for the Germanes to refuse that simple idiote which had the Scepter by succession and elect an other Phi. Though you holde the Pope may not yet you confesse the people may depose their Prince Theo. I tell you not what I thinke but what Pope Zacharie sayde to the Germanes Phila. Doe you like or dislike that hee sayde Theo. I shoulde haue asked you that question but because you preuent mee you shall heare what I saie Zâ—charie toucheth not the causes for which Princes may be deposed but the persons by whom it must bee doone if it bee needefull to doe it and that is by their owne Realmes and not by tribunalles abroade as you suppose Phi. Then it may bee doone Theo. When it shoulde bee doone the whole Realme must doe it and not the Pope Phi. But neither hee nor they can doe it except you first assent that it may be doone There can bee no deposers if Princes bee not deposeable Theo. There may fall extremities when Princes are not able to guide themselues much lesse their Realmes Phi. What be those Theo. I named them before frensie follie As if the right heire to any Crowne be a naturall foole or he that is inuested in the Crowne waxe mad and run besides him selfe In either of these two cases any Realme by publike consent and aduise may choose an other Phi. What vnlikely cases you bring vs which neuer yet fell out in proofe Theo. Yeas that they haue Childerike of whom we spake euen now was deposed by the Germanes for a foole And Charles the 3. the last Emperour of Pipines line Gods iustice requiting his children with the verie same measure that he met before vnto his master was deposed by the same people for * a bedlem As also when Iustinus the yonger was * distract of his wits Tiberius was placed in the Empire Philand You make Childerike a foole because you woulde auoide the Popes power to depriue Princes Theophil If you made him not a foole when you putte him from his right vnder that pretence I doe him no wrong Your Stories blaze him for a frantike foole Blondus and Nauclerus saie they did it Pensantes Regis amentiam considering the madnes of the king Sabellicus addeth thereunto * Regis deliria ineptias the follie and frensie of the king Gaguinus saith he was * homo vecors bellua a verie sotte and a beast and for that cause his title in your Stories is Childericus stupidus Childerike the foole whether hee were or no God knoweth but this wee see they handled him like a foole and the Pope had information against him that hee was Deneger monstrum a monster and not a man and therefore were the causes which they alleadged for this deposition true or no wee greatly care not They pretended a cause sufficient if it were true and the Pope confessed it lawefull for the whole Realme to displace such a Prince as was both vn-fitte and vn-able to beare the sworde Philand But Stephen absolued Pipine from the othe of alleageaunce which hee had giuen vnto Childerike Theoph. High time to absolue Pipine from his othe three yeares after Childerike was deposed and hee placed in the kingdome Regino whence that fable first came of Stephens sicknesse at Paris and his recouerie by a vision of Sainct Denis saieth not a worde of any such absolution but onely that Stephen confirmed Pipine and his two sonnes as lawfull kinges of France and adiured the Nobles not to choose them a king of any other line so long as Pipines race indured The rest is added by Monks and Friers in fauor of the Pope as infinite other thinges are in the accidentes of euerie Age. Howbeit absoluing from others if they be lawfull and good is a greater matter than we yet beleeue your holy father may deale with The wauering of your Stories in the cause of Childerikes deposition for sometimes they vrge a defect in Childerike sometimes they pleade a right in Pipine without the king and aboue the king as hauing the regiment of that Realme and all publike affaires committed to him and his for the space of fourscore yeares by way of inheritaunce before hee sought the crowne this wauering in the cause and curious seeking for absolutions and confirmations maketh many men suspect that your pretences against Childerike were not all true But whether Pipine had better interest to the Crowne of Fraunce than Childerike by reason the Mareschal of the Palace was become the kinges master in so much that the king coulde not commaunde his owne diet but at the Marshals pleasure and was gouerned and ouerruled in al things by him as a boy by his tutor which is the constant report of all your witers touching the state of the Germane kinges when Pipine aspired to the crowne or whether Childerike were an idiote and the last of his house as for the better strength of Pipines title your stories auouch I will be no iudge Childerik I say was deposed by the Nobles and commons of his nation and the Pope being consulted whether it were lawfull for them so to doe made answere they might but added no word of his diuine power to dispose kingdoms to his liking And this for Childerik may suffice For Philippicus the answere is easier Hee was a rebell and slue his Master in the fielde and therefore without any farther cause the Romanes might refuse both his name his reigne To this vsurpation when hee added as they thought impietie it was no maruel to see them so earnest against him But in this as in many other things your later Stories stray from the former The elder sort of Historiographers as Beda Regino Marianus Frisingensis Vrspergensis say The people of Rome decreed that neither his name nor letters nor coyne shoulde be receiued the later as Blondus Sabellicus and Nauclerus haue chaunged their tune and say The Bishop of Rome did it at the clamor and petition of the people Sigebert as indifferent betweene them saith the Bishop and the people ioyntly did it So handsomly you can hammer thinges when they come to your fingering and such credit your Stories deserue when the case concerneth your holy Fathers authoritie These bee all the examples you doe or can bring for the space of a thowsand yeares after Christ where Princes were depriued of their crownes by the Bishop of Rome and these how litle they make for your purpose
right you may conclude hence a iust allegation or a ciuill sedition in the Romanes but no depriuation of Princes by the Pope If by Lewes the thirde you meane Lewes the sonne of Boso for him you may meane and by your indistinct speaking you driue vs to ghesse at your meaning he with violence gate some dominion in Italie putting Berengarius to the worst and by negligence lost not onely that hee gate but his eyes also which hee might haue saued with staying at home mary the doers of it were Berengarius his enimie and the citizens of Verona which betraied him mention of the Pope there is none except you thinke it vnfitte for his holinesse that anie treason shoulde bee wrought without him for that his◠See is so well practised in them Of this Lewes Otho sayth In the yeare of our Lord 905. Lodouike the sonne of Boso getting the Empire expelled Berengarius and hauing the whole kingdome of Italie at his becke dismissing his armie went to Verona with a small traine where being betrayed by the citizens that sent for Berengarius from the place where hee was in exile hee was caught and his eyes pulled out And after that Berengarius helde the kingdom of Italie togither with the Romane Empire So haue wee three Lodouikes ech of them in sundrie writers surnamed Lewes the thirde and not one of them deposed by the Bishop of Rome Henrie the fourth was the first that was troubled with the Popes presumption to depose Princes but hee was so farre from taking it that hee put the Pope besides his cushinne and had him deposed from his triple Crowne not onelie by force but also by iudgement and sentence as good or better than that which the Pope pronounced against him Respect whether you will the cause or the manner of their proceeding eche against other Phi. You crake of this Emperour For that in fine by armes hee droue the saide Pope out of his Sea and placed an Antipape that is to say one so opposite to Christes Vicar as Antichrist shall bee against Christ which by armes and patronage of this wicked Emperour vsurped and occupied the Apostolike throne against the true Pope Gregorie the seuenth Theo. We crake not of Princes as you doe of Popes neither do we defend them in open wickednes as you doe Popes in their pestilent disorders and outrages only we say neither your holy father with his proude claime nor you with your smoothe tongues may take from Princes their Crownes without warrant from God of whome they haue their power and by whome they are exalted to their Royall dignitie And therefore if you will play the proctour for Pope Hildebrande in that attempt of his to depriue Henry the fourth leaue wastful woords and spiteful speach and go to the matter Scoffes and taunts are soone cast and recast without any paynes or praise Phi. Because this good and notable Pope was not able in fine to resist the Emperours forces the which Emperour as all the histories of that tyme recorde was a most wicked sacrilegious simoniacal and hereticall person the aduersaries of Gods Church doe triumph as the Libeller here doth ouer the blessed man as Herode might haue done ouer Iohn Baptist whose admonition was taken in so euill grè that it cost him his life as also the executing of the Churches sentence which is Gods hath doone to many a Prophet and Bishop in the worlde Theo. If to call Gregorie the seuenth Hildebrand which was his proper name and whereof neither hee nor you shoulde in reason bee ashamed be a note of rebellious heretiques as you terme them what is it for you to call a Prince on whom by Gods Lawe you are forbidden to rayle a most wicked sacrilegious simoniacall and hereticall person What is it to say that al the stories of that time record the same and to produce none As for Iohn Baptise you may vse his name when you follow his workes Herode was an incestuous Tyrant yet did not Iohn Baptist take the scepter from him nor arme his subiects against him but warned him of the breach of Gods Lawe which hee wilfully committed and the punishment which would ensue at Gods handes farther practices against Herode Iohn Baptist had none and therefore you might as well haue yoked Belial with Christ as Hildebrand with Iohn Baptist. But you must be suffered when other things faile you to haue glorious words which is a right Herodian affection Phi. By the euent of things whosoeuer measureth the right of cause will make a good religion and a good defence of the execution of iustice For so most tyrants might bee iustified for a tyme against all the Saintes of God This Gregorie say they was in fine banished by the Emperour And so was Saint Chrysostome by Arcadius and Eudoxia and dyed in banishment as Gregorie the seuenth did yet they were but homely Christians that woulde iustifie the Emperours and condemne S. Chrysostome Theo. Wee measure not the right of causes neither by the sequele nor successe of thinges for then the Saintes of GOD from the first beginning of the worlde shoulde haue had an euill cause since their successe hath alwayes beene to loose their liues for bearing witnes vnto the trueth Wee make it no reason that Hildebrandes cause was euill because in the ende hee was banished Wee all this while haue stoode with you on this point that neither Hildebrand nor any other Pope had or hath right to depose Princes Your commendation of Hildebrand and accusation of Henry the fourth if both were true are litle to this purpose vnlesse you will reason thus the Pope was a good man and the Prince an euill Ergo the Pope might depose the Prince which were a very rediculous conclusion Phi. The Popes right to depose Princes wee haue prooued before Theo. Not yet that wee see Your authorities came very short of it your examples shorter Some shiftes and sophismes you haue here and there offered vs but so weake that children woulde hardly bee deceiued by them Those you thought being destitute of other helpes to strengthen with examples and hauing searched all the corners you coulde for a thousande yeeres after Christ you finde not one till you come to Gregorie the seuenth who did attempt it but coulde not effect it and lost his Popedome for enterprising it And here you slip from the right of the cause to the praise of the Person which is vtterly impertinent to this purpose For what trowe you is euery thing good that good men doe May you not so commende any vice What sinne is there but some good man otherwise hath fallen into If to measure thinges by their euents bee no sure way to iudge rightly of them what is it to alleage no better grounde for the Deposition of Princes than the bolde attempt of the Bishoppe of Rome Were the Person commended not by the assentation of his
adherents but by the confession of his aduersaries that proueth not his fact to bee good or his enterprise lawfull We must balance thinges by the Lawes of God and not by the fansies and affections of men and yet touching the Person if the syncerest of your own side may bee trusted I see no such cause to commend him Phi. This Pope whome they specially hate because as it may be thought he was the first man that authentically condemned the Berengarians heresie and in open disputation refuted it though certaine of the said Emperours flatterers and enemies of the Sea Apostolike as the fashion of our heretiques is at this day wrote slaunderous libels against him yet was hee a very notable good man and learned and did suffer whatsoeuer hee did suffer for meere iustice in that hee did godly honorably and by the dutie of his Pastorship whatsoeuer hee did against the said Emperour whereof we could alleage all the best writers of those dayes or neere that tyme but that wee should be tedious Theo. Whatsoeuer Berengarius heresie was the recantation which your holy Father with his learned aduise prescribed him is a very wicked and palpable error If Hildebrand were the author of that condemnation we enuie not his praise A lewder or grosser follie was neuer vttered with tongue No maruaile to see you so forward in affirming that Gregorie the 7. was a very notable good man and learned and did suffer whatsoeuer he did suffer for meere iustice and did Godly and honourablie and by the dewtie of his Pastorship whatsoeuer hee did against the Emperour he was the first Pope that euer serued or fitted your rebelling humour Your case and his are all one and therefore vnlesse you should praise him you must dispraise your owne doings which you will not you be so farre entered into these Italian policies and perceiue them to bee so profitable for your Rhemish monarchie But Sirs if you were asked vnder benedicite whether S. Peter did better in submitting him selfe to Nero and charging al others to do the like or Pope Hildebrand in taking the crown from Henry the fourth and dischargeing his subiects which would you preferre The mild and Christian submission of Peter suffering death at Neroes hands or the disdainful and arrogant stomacke of Gregorie the seuenth making the Emperour with his Queene and young Prince in extreme frost and snowe waite his leisure three dayes barefoted and in woollen at the gates of Canusium whiles himselfe was warme in a Ladies chamber and notwithstanding this rare example of humilitie in a Prince practising a generall reuolt of his Nobles and people from him and causing an other to be chosen in his place and licencing his owne subiects seruants and sonnes to beare armes against him and filling the Christian world with vnnaturall and parricidial warres and bloudshed I knowe you dare not in plaine termes disgrace Sainct Peter but in deedes euident to the eyes of all men you take part with Pope Hildebrand against Sainct Peter extolling and praising him for a very notable good Pope that first gaue this detestable and damnable aduenture He did suffer you say whatsoeuer he did suffer for meere Iustice. It was madde meere Iustice that the Church of Christ for a thousand yeres would not bee so much as acquainted with and a madder imagination of yours that all that refused to bee partakers of Hildebrands wickednesse were flatterers to the Emperour and enimies to the See Apostolike farre better cause haue wee to say that they which conspired with the Pope against their Prince vppon so great submission as Christendome hath not seene the like were DESPISERS OF GOVERNMENT RESISTERS OF POWER and consequently disobeiers of Christ and woorse than hierlings of Antichrist And if you may shake them off that liued in the same age and wrate of things they sawe with their eyes and heard with their eares who smoothed not the vices of men but defended the ordinance of GOD What should bind vs to regard the corrupt and partiall iudgementes of those that came some hundreds after and knew no more of the certaintie of those actions than we do at this instant and were withall so wedded to the Sea of Rome that in respect thereof they did resist as you doe now both the power of man and the trueth of God Phi. We haue for Gregorie the seuenth the graue testimonie of Baptista Fulgosius a noble and learned man that was Duke of Genua aboue an hundred yeeres past which wee shall not let to set downe as wee find it in the Latine Constantissimus habitus est Gregorius septimus Pontifex qui quòd Henricum tertium Imperatorem propter aperta nimis Symoniae crimina pro Pastorali officio reprehendebat grauibus ab eo iniurijs affectus est Itaque iniuriarum magnitudine compulsus Henricum Gregorius vt haereticum Imperij honore priuauit Cum autem Henricus solut ecclesiastica censura non emendatione vitae sed armis quaereret alium creari Pontificem enixus capta vrbe obsidere Gregorium caepit Quae mala cum Gregorius pateretur nunquā tamen a iusto proposito dimoueri potuit That is Gregorie the seuenth was notable for his constancie who for that according to his Pastorall charge hee had admonished Henrie the third Emperour to leaue his knowen impietie of Symonie was by manifold intolerable iniuries vexed by the same Emperour and by the greatnes of his wickednes was compelled to depriue him as an heretique of his Imperiall dignitie But Henry seeking not by amendment of his life but by armes to bee absolued from the censure hee went about to set vp a newe Pope and beseeged the Citie of Rome and brought the Pope into great distresse In all which miseries Gregorie coulde neuer bee remoued from his iust purpose So hee writeth of the parties both And of the horrible crimes for which the Emperour was most iustly in the sight of all good men deposed Theo. Truth dependeth not vpon nobilitie but sinceritie Noble men haue their affections and ouersightes in writing as well as others Baptista Fulgosius liued foure hundreth yeeres after Gregorie the seuenth and had no better intelligence of the cause than wee haue at this day In his banishment hee collected certaine examples out of such bookes as came to his handes to spend the tyme ease his miserie but hee tooke not vppon him to iudge between your stories which were credible and which not All that hee sayth of Gregorie the seuenth is Constantissimus habitus est he was counted very constant could neuer be remoued from the purpose which he thought to be iust the rest is a report of the fact no debating of the cause And had this exiled Person giuen greater commendation to Gregorie than hee doeth euery Noble mans fansie that is or hath beene these fiue hundreth yeeres in Christendome must not appoint what power
conspiracies sought to shake this Emperour out of his cloathes but God so assisted him that he razed and destroyed the cities that rebelled and turned the Duke that betrayed him out of his Dukedome and electorship and made the Pope glad to leaue his Palace and flie to Venice in a cookes attire and had not indulgence of nature wonne him to accept the peace which the Pope offered and his captiue sonne intreated hee was like enough to haue taught the Bishoppe of Rome a newe lesson but the time was then for Antichrist to be exalted and therefore it pleased the wisedome of God to suffer this worthy Prince to be weariâ—d and content to imbrace peace for the safety of his sonne that was prisoner at Venice Where if it be true that is written of Pope Alexander euen by your owne fellowes he shewed himselfe in his right colours For willing the Emperour before all the people to lie flat on the ground he set his foote on the princes necke and said it is written thou shalt walke vpon the aspe and Basiliske tread the Lion and Dragon vnder thy feete And the prince answereth I do it not to thee but to Peter whose successor thou art the pope replied it must be done to me as wel as to Peter The Pope is now where he would be not on meane mens shoulders but on Princes necks and that aduancement hath he gotten not by religion or vertue but by breaking othes bearing armes shedding blood and such like turkish and diuelish stirres Phi. Would you not he should defend himselfe Theo. If hee be Peters successour hee must feede not fight teach obedience not authorize rebellion praie for his enimies not persue them with force and furie Else he succeedeth Romulus in murdering not Peter in feeding Phi. What if wordes will not serue shall the chiefest Pastour of our soules see the keyes and the church contemned and oppressed and not draw the sword Theo. That is in effect if men will not beleeue your Preaching may you not take boytels and knock them on their heades Nay the case goeth not so well with you You wage warres with earthly states if they dislike your pride or auert your gaine you pretende Sainct Peter and the Church when you meane nothing but your temporall commodities and superfluities it suffiseth you not to bee free from Princes Lawes swords or to be their equalles you striue with them to be their superiours to displace theÌ„ if they displease you These be the quarels which your holy father and his adherentes haue professed persued for the space of fiue hundreth yeares with all their might and maine for these things haue you spilt more Christian blood than euer Turke or Tyrant did at this daie you take it in euill gree that you may not still continue that course With Frederik the first you fel out for that hee durst place his owne name before the Popes which all Emperours euer did and as you fought with Henrie the fourth to get clergie mens liuings of his hands so you tumbled with this Frederik to exempt their persons least they should either for commodity or duty leane to the Prince when he beganne but to looke to your fingers that you should not decay his Realme inrich your selues you conceiued such immortal hatred against him that you tooke an othe to reuenge him not onely by conspiration but euen by succession With Frederike the seconde you delt much after the same sort whom you did excommunicate twise thrise foure times for no cause without all order of law iustice as if princes had bin footbals for popes to play with not powers for christian Bishops to reuerence Phi. Was not Frederik the 2. excommunicated for verie good causes Theo. They were very good I promise you Vrspergensis an Abbate then liuing saith of them The pope of very pride the first yeare of his Popedom began to excoÌ„municate Frederik the Emperor for friuolous false pretences without al order of iudgement Phi. But Blondus Platina tel you an other tale Blondus saith The first yeare of his coronation making light account of his oth he atteÌ„pted many enormous things against the Pope who warned him to forebeare these wicked perfidious and rebellious interprises but he euery day more more despised his admonitioÌ„ which made the Pope to terrifie him with an excoÌ„munication if he did not relent make restitutioÌ„ And when the Emperor set light by the first curse the second time the Pope added a depriuation from his Empire crowne third time when the Emperor stood still out the Pope very much offended therat absolued al his subiects from their othes wherby they were bouÌ„d to yeeld him alleageance And so saith Platina Honorius the third did excoÌ„municate depriue Frederik the second for molesting the Popes dominion against right law Theo. Your Italians perceiuing their Popes to haue bin very waspish eger against the Emperors that liked them not knowing what a shame it would be in the eies of al posterity for them to haue proceeded in such rage wtout vrgeÌ„t euident matter in general words do charge those Emperors with many grieuous crimes But we trust neither the Popes discretion nor the reporters construction vnlesse we see the particular facts that were committed They may think those things to be hainous which indeede are friuolous and if the quarell were for lands and territories lying in question betweene the Empire and the See of Rome the Pope did wickedly in his owne cause to abuse the keies for earthly mammon Phi. Who made you the Popes iudge Theo. I iudge him not there is one that shall iudge both him and his actes yet I may ask you the causes for which Frederike was accursed depriued Phi. You haue heard them out of Blondus and Platina Theo. Platina sayth Contra ius fasque ditioneÌ„ Pontificiam vexabat he molested the Popes inheritaunces against all right that Blondus calleth wickednesse rebellion and periurie These bee high wordes but I see no deedes And if we credite them which wrote that verie present when these thinges were doone the Pope did the Emperour open wrong in receiuing and succouring his rebels against him Vrspergensis sayth the first yeare after Frederike was crowned Emperour hee began to warre vppon two Earles of Thuscan Matthew and Thomas which had surprised certaine fortes and peeces of his territorie within Apulia and cleane put them from all they had who flying to Rome sought helpe at the Popes hand whereof the Emperour often complained that the See Apostolike fostered his publike aduersaries and enimies This was the falling out betweene the Prince and the Pope which your Italian Stories do mention Platina sayth it was the Popes right Vrspergensis two hundreth yeares before him and a writer in the midst of these actions saith it was the Princes right and that
Who rightly considering these attempts will not lament them detest them as the foresignes prognosticatioÌ„s of the ruine of the church And when the composition was made between the Emperor the Suldane that Hierusalem with certaine places neere bordering should be restored to the christians truce remaine for ten yeares the Emperor by letters aduertised the Pope the rest of christendom of this ioyfull newes The Pope cast away the letters would not receiue them with his fautors as men affirmed made a rumor to be spred in Apulia that the emperor was dead Wherupon the cities that yet stood for the emperour inclined to render themselues into the popes hands to kil the Almanes that returned from the holy land or were commorant in Apulia a most barbarous and wicked purpose And lest there should want any thing to the vttermost of al wickednes when Frederik after his arriuing in the holy land sent messengers to Rome to require absolution reconciliation because he had now perfourmed his promise the Pope repelled his petition inioyned the soldiers in Asia to withdraw their help froÌ„ Frederik as froÌ„ a publike enimie It was not enough to fil the Princes hands with ciuill warres when he should prepare against the Turk to stop and spoile his souldiers that should accompanie him to inuade his lande sollicite his townes in his absence your holy father must set the Christians when they should fight against the Turke togither by the eares wil them not only to forsake but also to impugne their Emperor What could the diuel himselfe haue done more if he had bin couched in the Popes chaire than Gregorie did Phi. These things Gregorie himselfe denied the Italians that since haue written reiect them as false Theo. So had they need For if they should confesse them they must yeeld the Pope in so doing to be rather the foreman of Satan than the Uicar of Christ. And therefore your Italian Stories presuming all that the Pope saide in defence of himselfe to bee true and all that hee claymed from the Empire to bee his raile on Frederike in great choler as on a wicked and faithlesse Prince and acquite the Pope as doing his dutie in all these counterplots But Italian wittes are too well knowen to be trusted when they are offended and in Blondus a man may soone perceiue an intemperate heate against those Princes that withstoode the Pope Phi. You dislike our stories and we dislike yours Theo. May you dislike your owne and such as then liued and honoured the See of Rome hauing no iust exception against them but only that they could not apparel the Popes pride with some smoth deuises as the Italians do Phi. Not long since you praised Blondus haue you now cast him out of conceite Theo. I did commend Blondus for his diligence where affection did not interpeale him But in this case drawing all thinges to his appetite the more diligeÌ„t the more daÌ„gerous He not only taketh euery word that Gregory spake for a Gospel but addeth of his own head such things as Gregory neuer obiected to Frederike that with no small spite For where Frederik complained to the Princes of Almanie how iniuriouslie and deceitfully the Pope had dealt with him amongest other thinges whiles hee was in the seruice of Christ against the Turke how the Pope had surprised a part of his kingdom with armes Gegory in his letters replied that because Raynold Frederiks captaine inuaded the kingdome of Scicily the speciall patrimonie of the church least the See Apostolike should thereby be impugned his Legates entred Frederiks kingdom found many ready to submit themselues This is all that Gregory pretended who woulde not spare to speake any thing that with any colour he might in his owne excuse and against Frederike Blondus finding this to be but a simple cause for the Pope to inuade the Emperors dominion in his absence in that seruice first for so much as the right of Scicily was in strife between the Empire the church of Rome secondly for that if Scicily were held in fee of the church of Rome yet Frederike was right heire vnto it by the mother side in ful possessioÌ„ of that kingdom before he was made Emperor therfore wel Raynold his captaine might put ouer souldiers into Scicily to man the forts for al occasions to containe them in their duties whatsoeuer should happeÌ„ to his master in that voiage against the Turk But other inuasâ—oÌ„ preiudicial to the church of Rome the princes captaine neither needed nor coulde make any Bondus I say perceiuing that Gregories pretence woulde seeme but a quarel sought of purpose to make a rebellion against the Emperour whiles he was from home helpeth the matter with certaine additions which are both odious and slaunderous Frederik saith he ready to take ship saile froÌ„ Italie was so far froÌ„ asking the Popes absolution benediction that making one Rainold the gouernor of the kingdome of Scicilie in plaine words willed him to oppresse the Pope and Clergie by all meanes Blondus might haue doone well to tell vs who stoode by and heard these wordes which Gregorie would neuer haue omitted if he had knowen them And if the Pope that sifted his words and deedes with all diligence knew no such thing how shoulde Blondus so many yeres after come by the knowledge of them The other obiection that he despised the Popes absolution is as foolish For as soone as he was landed on the other side and began to march towardes the Turke Platina confesseth that he was very earnest both by letters and messengers to be absolued by the Pope from his excommunication and could not obtaine it To haue delt therefore with the Pope before his going to be absolued had beene in vaine the Pope doubting that he would not goe and refusing as your selues confesse to absolue him when he was there arriued and encamped against the Turke Phi. The Pope would not absolue him because he went about to make peace with the Turke The. The Pope would euer haue some cause to molest him otherwise I see no reason to mislike the peace For whether the Turke stood in feare of him or was to be distracted emploied about other wars I know not the Emperor had not bin there a yere but the Turke was glad to yeeld him the kingdome of IerusaleÌ„ sauing the Temple a few Castles to hold peace with him and Christendom for ten yeres Which conclusion as it was honorable in it selfe so was it acceptable to all Christian states saue only to the Pope mary he of meere malice against Frederike when the letters were brought that should aduertise him of the Emperours good successe threw them away and shewed him-selfe much agreeued with the matter as one that did abode the Princes speedie returne would disappoint him of his hope And he missed not his
the Popes ayde with excoÌ„munications and rebellions that Frederike beganne to hearken to a peace and William of Sicilie hauing no children maried his sister to the Emperours sonne called afterward Henrie the sixt and father to this Frederike that wee speake of as willing the kingdome shoulde returne to the Emperours line who otherwise layd a chalenge to it When William of Sicilie was dead Henrie the sixt by maine force of armes subdued Sicilie and was receiued into Falernum the chiefe towne of Sicilie as a conquerour So that Frederike the second had a double right to the kingdome of Sicilie either as heire to his vncle in which case the Popes pension was not extinguished or els as Emperour by reason his Father did recouer it by conquest reunite it to the Empire Either of these tytles is sufficient to defend his doings in Sicilie As Emperour hee might claime it afore the Pope from the Pope for so did Conrade the third and Otho the fourth As king of Sicilie hee was to pay but a pension not to be the Popes Uasal and if the Pope should offer him any wrong he might lawfully repell force by force and punish the people of the land that would not obey him as their king assist him to hold his owne The Popes allegation therefore against Frederike for compelling the subiects of Sicilie to continue their obedience notwithstanding the Popes interdict is very friuolous Frederike herein did no more than any Prince might and would doe in the like state And graunt he had somewhat abused the kingdome of Sicilie which he did not is that a cause to remoue him from the Empire Phi. The other three be the principall causes Theo. Two of them namely heresie and periurie be starke false the thirde was arrogance in the Pope to make it sacrilege to touch a Cardinall not wickednes in the Prince to take them as enemies that labored to defeat him of his Crowne Phi. You woulde take the Princes part wee see were his cause neuer so euill Theo. You doe take the Popes part wee see though the sentence hee gaue bee neither agreeable to Gods Law nor mans Lawe nor his owne Canons Phi. Howe proue you that Theo. Nay it is hie tyme for you to come forth with your proofes or els wise men wil discerne in Innocentius the image of Antichrist proudly iudging in his Consistorie without regarde of God or man A professed aduersarie to sit iudge alone in his owne quarrel and for causes apparently false or friuolous to proceede to the depriuation of a Prince yea the greatest Prince in Christendome and in right his Soueraigne Lord and master neither admitting his proxie nor hearing what exceptions he could take to his accusers but appointing him to come in Person out of his owne Realme into an other princes Dominion and to pronounce him guiltie of all that was obiected being neither present nor heard for that he refused to put his life into his enemies handes If this bee iustice the wild Irish and Sauage Indians that know not what belongeth to cyuil societie or humane reason may be iudges as well as the Pope Phi. If the crimes were notorious and the Prince refused iudgement why should not the Pope proceede against him in his wilful absence Theo. The prince sent to shew the reason of his absence his atturnees to deale for him as farre as should be needful but that the Pope would not expect their coÌ„ming no not the space of three daies at the petition of most of the Nobles Prelates that were in his councel The crunes pretended to be notorious were conceiued in great words as periurie sacrilege heresie tyrannie but the facts coÌ„mitted by Frederike as breaking peace with the Pope that tooke part in the field with his rebels against him deteyning the Cardinals that went to work his deposition and fought with his fleete constraining his subiects in Sicilie to acknowledge him for their king were temporal priuate quarrels directly concerning the Popes atteÌ„pts against the Prince and the Princes right to defend himself which your holy father of his accustomed presumptioÌ„ called periury sacrilege tyrannie being the aduerse part gaue iudgement in his own cause as liked best his own displeased greeued stomack Now how this could stand with the prescription of diuine or moderation of humane lawes we would gladly learn Phi. Your refuge wil be to impugne the Popes power which was theÌ„ confessed though the hastynes of his censure were somwhat misliked The. By whom was it confessed Phi. By al men euen by Frederike himselfe Theo. You must make truer reports before you giue true iudgements Frederike in his epistle to the king of Fraunce shewing this sentence by all lawes to be voide alleageth that though the Bishop of Rome had full power in spiritual things so as he might bind or loose sinners whatsoeuer yet it is no where read that the Pope by the warrant of gods or mans law may remoue the Empire when he list or iudge temporally of kings princes to depriue them of their crownes The cities people of Italie by that opeÌ„ eger faction of Guelfs Gibelines which dured euen to our age shewed how many there were that tooke with the Prince against the Pope notwithstanding the Popes excommunications depriuations which you would so faine vphold at this day This faction of Guelfs ayding the Pope against the prince and Gibelines standing with the prince against the Pope grew so general sayth Nauclerus that no citie no towne no people remained free from that infectionâ— Citie hath waged warre with Citie prouince with prouince One halfe of the people with the other from that time to this our age for no cause else but for this faction some helping their prince against the Pope some the Pope against their prince For 200. yeres vpward saith Blondus euen to these our times they pursued eche other with such rage vnder these vnluckie names that the Italians wrought greater mischief among theÌ„selues than before they suffered at the hands of barbarous nations Towne against towne Countrie against Countrie the people of eche place diuided among them-selues fought together for no cause but for this dissention and their victories had no ende nor meane but bloodshed and vtter subuersion neither onely neighbours and cohabitants but those that dwelt fiue hundreth miles asunder euen the poorer sort and beggars as wel as rich and mightie men when they met eche other coÌ„mitted al crueltie one side on the other This flame your holy father kindled in his owne Coâ—ntrie with his rash proceeding against the Emperour so wide it skattered so loÌ„g it endured so fiercely it raged amoÌ„gst your own Deuotionists and yet you would make the worlde beleeue the Popes power to depriue princes was neuer doubted of but in these our dayes and by men of our side What Germanie thought of
the Popes vasall Phi. Better so than worse Better farmer to the Pope than prisoner to the French and in that offer to my iudgement the Pope shewed fauour to king Iohn Theo. Such fauour a thiefe sheweth when he cutteth off both hands and letteth the head stand Phi. Compare you the Pope to a theefe Theo. I did him no wrâ—ng if I shoulde except you thinke it lesse sinne to robbe a King of his Crowne than an other man of his goods Phi. The King was content and so long it could be no robbery Theo. So is any man by the high wayes side content rather to yeelde his purse than loose his life and yet that is fellonie Phi. What right hath a theefe to an other mans purse Theo. As much as the Pope had to the Crowne of England when he forced King Iohn to yeeld it Phi. Of that we will not dispute Theo. You should but shame your selues if you did Phi. But since that surrender he hath better title to this Realme Theo. No more than he had before King Iohn was borne and that was none at all Phi. The whole Realme of England with that of Ireland with all their right and appertinentes were giuen to Innocentius and his Catholike successours and the king bound his heires and after commers for euer to doe homage and fealtie to the Bishop of Rome Theo. A faire paire of indentures but somewhat too short to conuey a Kingdom The King by an oth might make himselfe thrall during his life as perhaps he did but tie his Realme crowne to that perpetuall bondage by his single deede or chart hee could not It is wel knowen the Kinges of this Realme can not doe lesse thinges than the selling or giuing of their crownes away without the consent of their nobles commons Phi. He had the consent of his Barons Theo. That is not true The deed saith with coÌ„mon counsel or aduise of our Barons meaning such as were then by chaunce about him at Douer but the most part of his Barons detested that act and the Kinges that came after him neuer tooke them-selues bound in honour law nor conscience to respect that priuate submission of their predecessour Phi. May not a King subiect his Realme to whome hee will Theo. I thinke Lawyers will say no as well as diuines sure I am the Barons of this Realme thought no. For when the Popes Legate spake to the French king that his sonne might not disquiet king Iohn being now fendarie to the church of Rome the king of Fraunce answered The kingdom of England neither was is nor shall be S. Peters patrimonie No king nor Prince can make away his Realme without the assent of his Barons that are bound to defende the Realme and if the Pope goe on to vphold this errour he giueth a most pernicious example to all kingdomes Then all the Nobles of England for to Fraunce were they fled to accompanie their new king whome they had chosen in king Iohns place with one voice cried they would stand to maintaine this article euen with the losse of their liues that a king or prince caÌ„not at his pleasure giue or subiect his kingdome to any other to make the Nobles of his Realm seruants So that his Barons neither consented he should nor liked that he did subiect his realm to the Bishop of Rome so far were they from consenting that in words they reuiled in deedes resisted both the king the Pope and vtterly despicing the curses and comminations that came from Rome they brought in Lodouike the French kings sonne to take the crown of England from the Popes lease For when the Pope had sent first a generall and after a speciall excommunication to curse them by name that went about to take the kingdom from his vasal They said euery one of them that those buls were of no force chiefly for that the ordering of temporall affaires did not appertaine to the pope since the Lord gaue Peter his successors no power but to dispose Church matters Why theÌ„ said they doth the insatiable greedines of Romanes encroach vpon vs What haue the Bishops of Rome to do with our wars Behold they wil be the successours of Constantine not of Peter And in somwhat homely termes out vpon such shriueled ribalds as are neither valiant nor liberal yet will rule the whole world by their excommunications like ignoble vsurers and Simonistes as they are Euen so the Barons Wo be to thee the outcast of kings the abomination of English princes coÌ„fusion of English nobilitie Alas England England til this time the Queene of Prouinces but now in subiection and vnder the rule of base seruants and strangers where as nothing is viler than to be in seruitude to a seruant We reade that other kinges and princes haue striued euen vnto death for the libertie of their Landes but thou Iohn of mourneful memorie to al ages hast deuised and contriued that thy Realme being anciently free should become bound and thy selfe of a most free king a seruile tributary farmour vassall And of thee O Pope what shall we say which shouldest shine to the world as the father of holynes the myrror of godlines the tutor of righteousnes keeper of truth that thou consentest commeÌ„dest defendest such an one But for this cause doest thou maintaine the waster of English wealth and extinguisher of English nobilitie depending on thee that all may be plunged into the gulfe of Romish auarice This was the Barons complaint against king Iohn for intiteling the Pope to the crown of England though they added other things as occasions to the warres called the Barons warres I meane the lawes liberties of king Edward yet this was the ground of their grief as you may collect by their words this respect made them refuse their king and elect an other and neuer leaue pursuing him till they brought him to his end And as for the kings that came after him set his own sonne aside who to make himselfe strong against Lodouike that possessed halfe this Realme did homage to the church of Rome for his kingdome and tooke an oth for the payment of the thowsand markes granted by his father thereby to continue the Popes censures against all those that affected his crown or molested his Land not one of them euer recognised this subiection or represented this yearly pension to the Bishop of Rome but kept him off at slaues end from infringing the roialties of the crowne oppressing the liberties of the Lande more than any Realme christian of the West parts that we read Insomuch that Polydore no meane aduocate of your side concludeth this subiection and pension touched personally king Iohn and not his successours that should raigne after him By reason of king Iohns deliuering his Crowne into the Legates handes receiuing it againe as his gift It is a fame saith
their eyes which all the godly beleeue with their heartes If oyle bee wanting they bee perfect Magistrates notwithstanding and Gods annointed as well as if they were inoyled And so for the person of the Bishoppe that doeth annoynt them It is fittest it be done by the highest but yet if they can not or will not any Bishoppe may perfourme it Authoritie to condition with Princes at the tyme of their coronation the Bishoppe hath none hee is faythfully to declare what GOD requireth at the handes of Princes not in religion onely but in rewarding vertue reuenging sinne relieuing the poore and innocent repressing the violent procuring peace and doing iustice throughout their Realmes and that if they faile in any of these God will not faile seuerely to visite the breach of his Lawe and contempt of their callings but yet hee hath no commission to denounce them depriued if they misse in some or all of these dueties much lesse to drawe Indentures betweene God and Princes conteyning the forfeiture of their crownes with a clause for the Pope and no man else to reenter if they keepe not couenants Phi. You graunt they bee bounde to God to defend the Church and true Religion Theo. Euen so bee they bound to doe those other thinges which I before rehearsed The couenaunt which God made with the Prince of his people was to feare the Lorde his God and to keepe not some but all the wordes of his Law The othe which the Kinges of Englande take hath many thinges besides the defence of the fayth and the Church The King shall feare God and loue him aboue all things and keepe gods precepts through his whole kingdome Hee shall aduance good Lawes and approoued customes and banish all euill Lawes from his kingdome Hee shal doe right iudgement in his realme and maintaine iustice by the counsell of his Nobles with many other points there specified All these thinges the King in his owne person shall sweare beholding and touching the holy Gospel in the presence of the people the Priestes and the Clergie before hee bee crowned by the Archbishoppes and Bishoppes of his Realme Shal a king bee deposed if hee reuolt as you call it from his promise and othe in any of these points Phi. Heresie and infidelitie tend directly to the perdition of the common-wealth and the soules of their subiects and notoriously to the annoyance of the Church true Religion Theoph. Wee compare not vices but discusse the vitiousnes of your conclusion Kinges you say couenant with GOD at their annointing That othe and promise if they breake with God the people you adde may and by order of Christs supreme minister their chiefe Pastor in earth must needes breake with them If by BREAKING you ment not obeying them in those particular cases which tend to the defacing of Gods trueth your illation were not much amisse for in all things wee must obey God rather than man but by BREAKING you vnderstand an vtter refusing of obedience in all other cases and a violent remoouing them from their crownes which we say is not lawfull for Pastor nor people to atteÌ„pt against princes though they answere not their duties to God in euerie point They couenant at the same time and with the same oth the keeping and obseruing of the whole lawe of God and yet was there neuer any man so brainsicke as to defend that Princes for euerie neglect and offence against the Law should be deposed Phi. Heresie is one of the greatest breaches of Gods Law Theo. To hold the truth of God in manifest and knowen vnrighteousnes without repentance is a greater impietie than ignorantly to be deceiued in some points of religion but we stand not on the degrees of sinnes which God will reuenge from the greatest to the smallest as much as on the person which may do it and the warrant whereby it must be done We deny that Princes haue any superiour and ordinarie Iudge to heare and determine the right of their Crownes Wee deny that God hath licenced any man to depose them and pronounce them no Princes The sonne cannot desherit his father nor the seruant countermaund his master by the lawes of God and nature be the father and master neuer so wicked Princes haue farre greater honour and power ouer subiects than any man can haue ouer sonnes and seruantes They haue power ouer goods lands bodies and liues which no priuat man may chalenge They be fathers of our Countries to the which we be nearer bound by the very confession of Ethnikes than to the fathers of our flesh Howe then by Gods law should subiects depose their Princes to whom in most euident woords they must bee subiect for conscience sake though they bee tyrauntes and Infidels And if the subiects them-selues haue no such power what haue strangers to meddle or make with their Crownes Phi. Doe you count the Pope a straunger to Christian Princes Theo. Would God he were not woorse euen a mortall and cruell enimie to al that bee Godlie He was a subiect vnder them eight hundreth yeares and vpwarde he after by sedition and vsurpation grewe to bee a sâ—ate amongest them a Superiour ouer them in causes concerning their Crownes and states you shall neuer prooue him to bee For a thousand yeares he durst offer no such thing these last fiue hundreth hee often assayed it and was as often repelled from it by factions conspiracies excommunications and rebellions hee molested and grieued some of them as I haue shewed but from the ascention of our Lorde and Sauiour to this present day neuer Prince Christian did yeeld and acknowledge any such power in the Pope and those that seemed in their neighbours harmes somewhat to regard his doings for an aduauntage when the case concerned them-selues most boldlie reiected his iudgements Phi. By the fall of the King from the faith the danger is so euident and ineuitable that GOD had not sufficientlie prouided for our saluation and the preseruation of his Church and holie Lawes if there were no way to depriue or restraine Apostata Princes Theo. You make vs many worthy reasons for the depriuation of Princes but of all others this is the cheifest If there were no way to depriue Princes God hath not say you sufficiently prouided for our saluation and the preseruation of his Church Euen so one of your owne fellowes saide before you of the verie same poinâ—e Non viderâ—tur Dominus discretus fuisse vt cum reuerentia â—ius loquar c. The Lorde by his leaue should haue seemed scant discreete except hee had left one such Vicar behind him as might doe all things to witte depose Emperours and all other Princes Unlesse your rebellious humours may take place you stick not to charge the sonne of God with lack of discretion negligence but looke better about you ye blasphemous mouths you shall see that the Church of God is purest when
but hee should deny God Hee sinned not against the king when he constantly went forward in the exercise of prayer to God Daniel therefore doeth rightly defend himself that he did no wickednesse against the king in that being bound to obey the preceptes of God he neglected the kinges commaundement to the contrary Then follow your wordes that Princes loose their right to be obeyed when they presume to commaund against God and that wee were better defie their edictes to their faces than obey them when they waxe so froward that they will put God from his right and sit in his throne Phi. For declaration of this text and for cutting off all cauillation about the interpretation of his wordes your brother Beza shall speake next who alloweth and highly commendeth in writing the fighting in Fraunce for religion against the lawes and lawfull king of that countrie saying in his Epistle dedicatorie of his new Testamēt to the Queene of England her selfe That the Nobility of France vnder the noble Prince of Condy laide the first foundation of restoring true Christian religion in France by consecrating most happily their blood to God in the battel of Druze Where of also the Ministers of the reformed French Churches as their phrase is do giue their common verdict in the confession of their faith thus We affirme that subiects must obey the Lawes pay tribute beare all burdens imposed and sustaine the yoke euen of infidel Magistrates so for all that that the supreme dominion and due of God bee not violated Theo. You haue already belied Caluine and nowe you take the like course with Beza and the French churches Their speach can bee no declaration of Caluines words if they did leane that way which you make them as they doe not therefore this is but a Friers tricke to abuse both writers Readers Phi. Beza highly commendeth the fighting in Fraunce for religion against the Lawes and lawfull king of that countrie Theo. The battell which Beza speaketh of was neither against the Lawes nor the king of that countrie That olde fore the Duke of Guise hating the Nobles of Fraunce as being himselfe a straunger and seeking to tredde them downe whom he knew inclined to religion that he might strengthen him selfe and his house to take the crowne if ought shoulde befall the kinges line as his sonne the yong Duke at this present in armes for that cause doth not sticke to professe watching his oportunitie whiles the king of Fraunce was yet vnder yeares armed him-selfe to the field as his sonne now doth and against all Lawe with open force murdered many hundreth subiectes as they were making their prayers to God in their assemblies vpon pretence that their seruice was not permitted by the Lawes of that Realme The Nobles and Princes of Fraunce perceiuing his malice seeing his iniustice that being a subiect as they were he would with priuate and armed violence murder innocents neither conuented nor condemned which the king himselfe if he had beene of age by the lawes of their Countrie could not doe gathered togither to keepe their owne liues from the fury of that violent bloodsucker and in that case if they did repell force what haue you to say against it or why should not Beza praise the Prince of Condy and others for defending the Lawes of God and that Realme against the Guises open iniurie with the consecrating of their blood most happily to God Phi. The Duke did nothing without the king and the Queene mother and therefore impugning the one they impugne the other Theo. The king was yong and in the Guises hands therefore his consent with the Peeres states of his Realme that a subiect should doe execution vpon his people by the sword without all order of iustice could bee nothing worth The king had neither age to discerne it nor freedome to denie it nor law to decree it Phi. The Queene mother had her sonne in custodie and not the Duke and with her consent were these thinges done Theo. Of the Queene mother of Fraunce I will say no more but that the auncient lawe of that Realme did barre her from the Crowne and therefore her consenting with the Guise might sharpen the doer but not authorize the deede Phi. Defend you then their bearing armes against the king Theo. To depriue the king or annoy the Realme they bare none but to saue themselues from the violent and wrongfull oppression of one that abused the kinges youth to the destruction of his lawes Nobles and commons Phi. As you say Theo. And you shall neuer proue the contrary But these thinges are without our limites Wee be scholers not souldiers diuines not lawyers English not French The circumstances of their warres no man exactly knoweth besides themselues as also we knowe not the lawes of that Land We wil therefore not enter these actes which haue so many parts precedentes causes concurrents and those to vs vnknowen and yet all to bee discussed and proued before Beza may be charged with this opinion by his cōmending the battel of Druze but will rather giue you his vndoubted iudgement out of his owne workes quite against that which you slaunder him with Purposely treating of the obedience which is due to Magistrates thus hee resolueth Quod autem attinet ad priuatos homines tenere illos oportet plurimum inter se differre iniuriam inferre iniuriam pati Iniuriam enim pati nostrum est sic praecipiente Domino suo exemplo nobis praeeunte quum nobis illam vi arcere non licet ex nostrae vocationis praescripto extra quam nefas est nobis vel pedem ponere neque aliud vllum remedium hic proponitur priuatis hominibus tyranno subiectis praeter vitae emendationem preces lacrymas As touching priuate men they must holde great difference betweene doing and suffering wrong It is our part to suffer iniurie the Lord so commaunding and teaching vs by his owne example for so much as it is not lawfull for vs to repell it with force by the prescript of our calling from the which we may not step one foote neither is there here proposed any other remedy for priuate men that are vnder a tyrant but the amending of their liues and therewithall prayers and teares And making a plaine distinction betweene not obeying and taking armes whē the Magistrate commaundeth against God hee saith This rule is firme and sure that we must obey God rather than man so often as we can not obey the preceptes of men but wee must violate the authoritie of that supreme King of Kinges and Lord of Lordes yet so that wee remember it is one thing not to obey them and an other thing to resist or take armes which God hath not permitted thee So the midwiues are praised that obeyed not Pharaoh and the Apostles and all the Prophetes and Martyrs could by no tyrants bee
to subiect his kingdome to a forraine Realme or change the forme of the common wealth from imperie to tyrannie or neglect the Lawes established by common consent of Prince and people to execute his owne pleasure In these and other cases which might be named if the Nobles commons ioyne togither to defend their auncient accustomed libertie regiment and lawes they may not well be counted rebels Phi. You denied that euen now when I did vrge it Theo. I denied that Bishops had authoritie to prescribe conditions to kinges when they crowned theÌ„ but I neuer denied that the people might preserue yeâ—sundation freedom form of their common-wealth which they forprised when they first consented to haue a king Phi. I remember you were resolute that subiectes might not resist their Princes for any respectes and now I see you slake Theo. As I sayde then so I say now the Law of God giueth no man leaue to resist his Prince but I neuer said that kingdoms and common-wealthes might not proportion their States as they thought best by their publike lawes which afterward the princes theÌ„selues may not violate By superior powers ordained of God we vnderstaÌ„d not only princes but al politike states regimeÌ„ts somwhere the people somwhere the Nobles hauing the same interest to the sword y Princes haue in their kingdoms in kingdoms where princes beare rule by the sword we do not meane the princes priuate wil against his lawes but his precept deriued froÌ„ his lawes agreeing with his lawes which though it be wicked yet may it not be resisted of any subiect with armed violence Mary when Princes offer their subiects not iustice but force and despise all Lawes to practise their lustes not euery nor any priuate man may take the sword to redresse the Prince but if the lawes of the land appoint the nobles as next to the king to assist him in doing right withhold him from doing wrong theÌ„ be they licensed by mans law so not prohibited by Gods to interpose themselues for the safegard of equitie innocencie and by all lawfull and needefull meanes to procure the Prince to bee refourmed but in no case depriued where the scepter is inherited Phi. If I should assent to this how doth it acquite your fellowes in Germanie Flaunders France and Scotland that resist their Catholike Princes for maintenance of their heresies Theo. Not vnlesse they proue their states to be such as I speake of Phi. That they shall neuer Theo. You be deeper in policie than in diuinitie that belike fitteth your affection better and yet therein you shew but what a malicious conceit and a slipperie tongue may soone suspect and vtter It is easie for a running and rayling head to sit at home in his chamber and call all men rebelles himselfe being the rankest otherwise I see neither trueth in reporting nor sense in debating the matters that are so often in your mouth Why should the Germanes submitting themselues to the Emperour at his election but on conditioÌ„ not enioy the same liberties securities of their publik State which their fathers did before them Why should they be counted rebels for preseruing their ciuill policie more than Italians which cut them-selues vtterly from the Empire by no consent nor allowance but only by force and disturbance The like we say for the Flemmings What reason the King of Spaine should alter their State and euert their auncient Lawes his stile declaring him not to be King but Earle of Flaunders And being admitted for a protectour if hee wil needes become an oppressour why should they not defend the freedome of their countrie The Scottes what haue they doone besides the placing the right heire and her own sonne when the mother fledde and forsooke the realme Be these those furious attempts and rebellions you talke of In France the King of Nauarre and the Prince of Condey might lawfully defend themselues from iniustice and violence and be ayded by other Princes their neighbours if the King as too mightie for them sought to oppresse them to whom they owe not simple subiection but respectiue homage as Scotland did to England and Normandie vnto Fraunce when the Kings notwithstanding had bitter warres ech with other The rest of the Nobles that did assist them if it were the Kings act that did oppresse them and not the Guises except the Lawes of the land doe permit them meanes to saue the State from open tyranny I will not excuse and yet the circumstances must be fully knowen before the fact can bee rightly discerned with which I confesse I am not so exactly acquainted But graunt you could find vs where PROTESTANTS haue taken armes in some one place or other for religion their armes were defenciue not inuasiue as yours are they resisted the Popes inquisitions not the lawes of their Countries as you doe they rescued their wiues and children from horrible butcherie they depriued not Princes as you would And yet all these imparities considered if I doe not shew by your owne stories an hundreth outrages of your side for one of ours I am content to lose the cause Looke backe therefore Sir Auditor to your owne accompts and view with shame enough how many rebellions your fellowes haue made within these last fiue hundreth yeres how many Princes they haue displaced poisoned and murdered and make no such tragicall exclamations at others for sauing them selues and their innocent families from your cruell and incredible furies Phi. We put you in mind of the Protestants in other Countries because you make so much adoe for one poore commotion in England made in defence of the Catholikes in twentie six yeres of the greatest persecution and tribulation that euer was since the Gothes and the Vandals times Theophi That we had but one commotion in this realme wee may thanke God and not you you did your best by procuring inuasion abroade and ripening rebellion at home to multiplie that one to twentie six twise tolde but that the mightie hand of GOD did alwaies vnioint your deuises Neither make we not so much adoe that you did once rebell but that you still seeke to continue the same by comforting forraine powers to enter the land by disposing the heartes of all Catholikes as you call them within the realme to waite for that day by maintaining and auouching the Popes wicked claime to depose Princes for a point of Christian faith by canonising the Northerne rebels in your open writings for Martyrs by proclaiming as you doe in this booke such warres against the Prince to be Godlie iust and honorable and last of all by resoluing directing and encouraging Parry Somerfield other that with violent hands sought to attempt your soueraignes life These be the things for which we make so much adoe and which if there be but one iote of true religion or obedience in you my masters of Rhemes you would not so
when ten yeares after his comming to the crown he was forced to send for direction to Huldath the Prophetesse not finding a man in Iudah that did or could vndertake the charge Phi. These were kinges of the olde Testament and they had the Lawe of God to guide them Theo. Then since christian Princes haue the same Scriptures which they had and also the Gospell of Christ and Apostolike writings to guide them which they had not why should they not in their kingdomes retaine the same power which you see the kings of Iudah had vsed to their immortall praise and ioy Phi. The christian Emperours euer called Councels before they would attempt any thing in Ecclesiasticall matters Theo. What councell had Constantine when with his Princely power he publikely receiued and setled christian religion throughout the world twentie yeares before the fathers met at Nice What councels had Iustinian for all those ecclesiasticall constitutions and orders which he decreed and I haue often repeated What councels had Charles for the church lawes and chapters which he proposed and inioyned as wel to the Pastors as to the people of his Empire Phil. They had instruction by some godly Bishops that were about them Theo. Conference with some Bishops suâ—h as they liked they might haue but councels for these causes they had none In 480. yeares after christian religion was established by christian Lawes I meane from Constantine the first to Constantine the seuenth there were very neere fourtie christian Emperours whose Lawes and actes for ecclesiasticall affaires were infinite and yet in all that time they neuer called but sixe generall Councels and those for the Godhead of the Sonne and the holy Ghost for the two distinct natures and willes in Christ All other pointes of christian doctrine and discipline they receiued established and maintained without ecumenicall councels vpon the priuate instruction of such Bishops and Clerkes as they fauored or trusted Theodosius as I shewed before made his owne choice what faith he would follow and had no man nor meanes to direct him vnto truth but his own prayers vnto God and priuate reading of those sundry confessions that were offered him And when neither Bishops nor Councels could get him to remoue the Arians from their churches Amphilochius alone with his witty behauior aunswere wan him to it For entering the Palace and finding Arcadius the eldest sonne of Theodosius lately designed Emperor and sitting with his father Amphilochius did his dutie to the father and made no account of his son that sate by him Theodosius thinking the Bishop had forgotten himselfe willed him to salute his sonne to whom the Bishoppe replied that which he had done to the father was sufficient for both Whereat when the Emperour began to rage to conâ—â—er the contempt of his sonne for his dishonour the wise Bishoppe inferred wiâ—h a loude voice Art thou so grieued O Emperour to see thy sonne neglected and so much out of pacience with those that reproach him Assure thy selfe then that almighty God hateth the blasphemers of his Sonne and is offended with them as with vngratefull wretches against their Sauiour and deliuerer Had you beene in the primatiue church of Christ you woulde haue gallantly disdained these and other examples of christian kings and Countries conuerted instructed somtimes by Marchaunts sometimes by women most times by the single perswasioÌ„ of one man without al legal means or iudicial proceedings the poore soules of very zeale imbracing the word of life wheÌ„ it was first offered them and neglecting your number of voices consent of Priestes competent courts as friuolous exceptioÌ„s against God dangerous lets to their saluation Frumentius a christian child taken prisoner in India the farther and brought at length by Gods good prouidence to beare some sway in the Realme in the nonage of the king carefully sought for such as were christians among the Romane Merchants and gaue them most free power to haue assemblies in euery place yeelding them whatsoeuer was requisite and exhorting them in sundry places to vse the christian praiers And within short time he built a Church brought it to passe that some of the Indians were instructed in the faith and ioyned with them The king of Iberia neere Pontus when he saw his wife restoared to health by the prayers of a christian captiue and himselfe deliuered out of the suddaine danger that he was in only by thinking and calling on Christ whom the captiue woman named so often to his wife sent for the woman and desired to learne the manner of her religion and promised after that neuer to worship any other God but Christ. The captiue woman taught him as much as a woman might admonished him to build a church and described the forme how it must be done Whereupon the king calling the people of the whole nation together told them what had befallen the Queene and him and taught them the faith and became as it were the Apostle of his nation though hee were not yet baptized The examples of England France other couÌ„tries are innumerable where kings coÌ„monwealths at the preaching of one man haue submitted themselues to the faith of Christ without councels or any Synodal or iudicial proceedings And therefore ech Prince people without these meanes haue lawful power to serue God Christ his Son notwithstanding twentie Bishops as in our case or if you will twentie thowsand Bishops should take exceptious to the Gospell of truth which is nothing else but to waxe mad against God by pretence of humane reason and order Phi. Their examples and yours are not like They receiued the same faith that the church of Christ professed you doe not Theo. They know not what the church of christ ment when they submitted themselues to the faith of Chriâ—â— they respected not the countenaunces of men but the promises of God when they first beleeued And were you not so wedded to the Popes tribunals decrees that you thinke the God of heauen shoulde not preuaile nor commaunde without your allowance you would remember that the church her selâ— was first collected and after increased by Christes Apostles maugre the councelles of Priestes and Courtes of Princes that derided the basenesse and accused the boldnesse of such as would preach Christ without their permission Phi. The Apostles had a iust and lawfull defence for their doinges Theo. What was it Phi. We ought rather to obey God than men Theo. Was that authoritie sufficient for them to withstand the Synodes of Priestes and swordes of Princes Phi. Most sufficient Theo. And the truth of God chaungeth not neither doth his right to commaund against the powers and lawes of al mortal men decay at any time Phi. By no means Theo. Then this must only be the question betwixt vs whether the Prince or the Prelates stoode for that which God commaundeth If the
the Princes or nayle vp cloth of Tissue where the Prince is not and say it is a chayre of state would you bee so foolish as to regard either of them or shoulde you not dishonour the king if you did reuerence them since they bee not such thinges as the Prince accepteth or vseth for his but other mens counterfaites Phi. I speake of that Chaire where the Prince did sit and of that Seale which the Prince did send Theo. I knowe you did and therefore I refused your similitude as vnlike the matter in question betwixt vs because images are neither places of Christes presence nor witnesses of his will as Seates and seales are vnto Princes no nor ordayned allowed or admitted by Christ to haue any credite or vse about his heauenly person or pleasure but only proposed by men of a naturall and kind affection as they thought towards Christ though cleane without warrant and so without thankes from him For hee of purpose tooke his bodily presence from the eyes of men that hee might dwell in their heartes by fayth and to teach vs to honour him not by that proportion of face which the painter would drawe but by that abundance of loue grace and mercie which hee hath extended on vs and layde in stoare for vs and which no corporall eyes can behold nor colours expresse but onely the hearing of his woorde and woorking of his spirite can lighten and perswade the heart of man to conceiue and beleeue Phi. Is it not thankes woorthie with God to haue alwayes the shape of his sonne before our eyes that wee may honour him with our hearts Theo. To honour him with your heartes and to haue him at all times in your mindes is religious and requisite but to make light of those meanes which hee hath prescribed to nourish your fayth and continue the memorie of him-selfe to seeke out others of your owne fit to please your senses not to resemble his greatnes or goodnes this is neither acceptable vnto God nor profitable for your selues Phi. To remember Christ cannot bee euill Theo. Not to remember him till you looke on a picture can not bee good Your heartes ought alwayes to bee lifted vp vnto him that whether you eate or drinke wake or sleepe or whatsoeuer you doe in woorde or deede you may doe all in the name of the Lord Iesu giuing thankes alwayes for all thinges vnto God the father in the name of our Lorde Iesus Christ. You must not tary for the execution of this precept till you see an Image But all your actions woordes and thoughtes must bee directed to the prayse of his glory and honour of his name This if you put in bre you shall neede no painted nor carued Image to bring you in mynde of his mercies The benefites and blessings within you without you and on euery side of you which GOD for Christes sake bestoweth on you are so many that you can hardly forget him vnlesse you also forget the earth that beareth you the heauen that couereth you the day that guydeth your feete the night that giueth you rest the meates that you feede on and the breath that you liue by yea your owne bodies which hee woonderfully made and soules which hee preciously bought All these thinges and all other thinges in heauen and earth you must drowne in vtter obliuion before you can inferre that Images bee needefull to put vs in mynde of our dueties to GOD. And since without Images you can and must remember the Father that created and the Holy Ghost that â—anctified you why shoulde you forget the sonne that redeemed you more than the other except you haue Images at your elbowes to kindle you appetites But this is nothing to the worshipping of Images which you should proue to bee Catholike Though there were an historicall vse in painting the shape of our Sauiour yet is it no pietie to worshippe the picture Graunt it might be vsed for remembrance for religion it may not and therefore you are all this while besides the marke Philand You denie both the hauing and woorshipping of Images to bee Catholique Wee prooue the hauing of them to bee necessarie by the fruite and profite that commeth from them namely the instruction of the ignorant in the storie of their saluation the putting vs in often remembraunce of our Sauiour and the stirring vp our deuotion with more feruencie The worshipping of them wee proue with more facilitie for if hee that honoureth the Image honour the person himselfe thereby represented as S. Athanasius S. Basil S. Chrysostome and S. Ambrose doe affirme then the worship which is done to the Image of Christ passeth vnto Christ himselfe and by consequent if it bee lawfull to adore and honour Christ it is not vnlawfull to doe the like to his Image Besides wee can prooue that adoration of Images is a tradition deliuered from the Apostles and obserued in all Churches and that the Scripture it selfe supporteth vs in this point as the learned epistle of Adrian the Bishoppe of Rome to Constantine and Irene doeth largely shewe and for the credite of the cause wee haue a general Councell eight hundreth yeres old to say as much in euery point as I affirme and more Theo. Wee maruell not to see you so deepely deceiued and strongly deluded as you bee such is the iust iudgement of God on all that admit not the loue of the trueth but haue pleasure in vnrighteousnes You rest on the vanities forgeries of such as were enclined to the same error before you not examining their proofes nor considering their reportes but presuming their euident follies to bee pregnant authorities for you whith is euer the next way to seduce others and to bee seduced your selues As touching the shew which you make of Scriptures Apostolike Tradition Churches Fathers Councels it is a childish and friuolous vaunt The fathers which you quote are abused the Apostles and their Churches belied the Scriptures depraued and wrested the Councell which you call generall reiected as wicked and diligently refuted in the same age by the West Bishoppes Of these emptie and vnluckie Maskes the more you bring the lesse you wynne Phi. Wee loose nothing so long as you lode vs onely with words Theo. If your proofes bee vaine my woordes be true Looke you therefore to the soundnesse of that which you alleage otherwise your owne burden will ouerpresse you Philand The collection which I made out of Saint Basill and others is very sure Saint Basill sayth Honos Imaginis in ipsum prototypum redit The honour doone to the Image redoundeth to the principall that is thereby represented S. Athanasius Qui Imaginem adorat in ipsa Imperatorem adorat He that reuerenceth the Image honoureth therein the Emperour And S. Chrysostome Knowest thou not that hee which hurteth the Emperours Image defaceth the Imperiall dignitie it selfe And so S. Ambrose Hee that
Art Phi. You vnderstand vs not When wee giue diuine honour to the image in respect of Christ we giue it to Christ and not to the image Theo. God graunt you vnderstand your selues You first dishonour the Sonne of God by exhibiting the heauenly seruice that is due to him to an Image made with handes and then with a shift of wordes you thinke to delude him in telling that hee may not choose but like of your doinges because you ment it vnto him when you did it to a dumbe creature for his sake But awake out of your frensie God will not thus be mocked by your relations or intentions Hee is zealous of his honour he will not resigne it to any other and namely not to grauen or carued images If against his worde against his will against his truth and glorie you impart it to anie other or take vpon you to conueie it to him by creatures or images as if hee were not present in all places with might and maiesty to receiue the seruice that is done vnto him you not onely make new Gods but you reiect him as no GOD who alone is the true GOD and will be serued without mate or meane of your deuising Phi. Our Lord shewing what account he maketh of such as represent his person sayth In as much as you haue doone it to one of the least of these you haue doone it vnto me Theo. Did Christ speake that of images Phi. Noâ— but thereby you see it passeth â—â—to Christ whatsoeuer is done in his name or for his sake to others Theo. If you meane such charitable reliefe as Christ hath commaunded vs to yeeld to our brethren in respect of his will their neede and our dutie you say well wee haue for that the manifest precept and promise of our Sauiour accepting it as done to himselfe whatsoeuer is done to any of his brethren or seruauntes but if you leape from men to images from humane comfort to diuine honour you leape too farre to haue the sequele good Philand If diuine adoration may not bee giuen to Images yet humane reuerence may with-out anie daunger Theo. Religious honour may not and as for externall and ciuill reuerence whether that may bee giuen to images can bee no doubt of Doctrine nor point of fayth The one is impious to bee defended the other superfluous to bee discussed Philand So you giue them either wee care not Theophil If you flie from adoration to saluation and stande not on pietie but on ciuilitie then is it a question for Philosophers and not for Diuines and to bee decided rather in the Schooles than in the Churche neyther can any manne bee praysed or preiudiced for vsing or omitting that kinde of curtesie which neyther the Gospell nor good manners conuince to bee necessary Philand Shoulde wee not honour Christ and his Sainctes by all the meanes wee can Theophil Christ you must honour with all power and all your strength as being the Sonne of the liuing GOD but you may not fasten his honour to any Image or creature since hee is alwayes present to beholde and willing to receiue as well the religions submission of knees handes and eyes as the inwarde sighes and grones of the heart neither can you bestowe the least of these gestures on an image in your prayers without open and euident wrong to him to whome you shoulde yeeld them Phi. For adoring of images I am not so earnest as for hauing them in the Church that they may put vs in remembraunce of the bitter paines and death which it peased our Lord to suffer for our sakes and that I am sure is catholike though adoration be not Theo. We doe not gainesay the remembring or honouring the death and bloodshedding of our Sauiour hee is not onely dull but wicked that intermitteth either but this is the doubt betwixt vs whether wee shoulde content our selues with such meanes as hee hath deuised for vs and commended vnto vs thereby dayly to renue the memorie of our redemption or else inuent others of our owne heades fitte perhappes to prouoke vs to a naturall and humane affection but not fitte to instruct our fayth The hearing of his worde and partaking of his mysteries were appointed by him to leade vs and vse vs to the continuall meditation of his death and passion a crucifixe was not hee knowing that images though they did intertaine the eies with some delight yet might they snare the soules of many simple and sillie persons and preferring the least seede of sounde faith beholding and adoring him in spirit and truth before all the dumbe shewes and imagery that mans wit could furnish to winne the eye and moue the heart with a carrâ—all kind of commiseration and pitie such as wee finde in our selues when wee beholde the tormentes and pangues of any miscreant or malefactour punished amongest vs. Phi. All meanes are good that bring vs in minde of his death Theo. By sight you may learn the maner of his death but neither the cause nor the fruits which are the chiefest thinges that the sonne of god would haue vs remember in his death and you very peruersely and wickedly keeping the people from those meanes which Christ ordained as the hearing of the word and right vse of the sacraments which you drowned in a strange tongue that the people vnderstood not set them to gaze on a Roode taught them to giue all possible honour both bodily and ghostly to that which they sawe with their eyes bearing them in hand it passed from the image to the originall that is from a dead and senselesse stocke to the glorious and euerlyuing Sonne of God which in effect was nothing else but to worship and serue the creature before the Creator which is blessed for euer Phi. You are now besides the matter We speake of hauing images for remeÌ„braunce not of adoring them for religion and that is catholike if this be not Theo. Since the hauing of images being neither deliuered nor allowed by Christ nor his Apostles is superfluous and the abusing of them is so daungerous and yet so frequent and often that in all ages and places it hath intrapped many Gentiles Iewes and Christians I see no reason why for a curious delight of the eyes which the Apostles neglected and the primatiue Church of Christ wanted we shoulde scandalize the ignorant and exercise the learned as for a necessarie point of catholike doctrine Phi. Had the Apostles and their scholers no images Theo. Had they thinke you Phi. Remember you not the image which Nicodemus that came to Christ by night made with his owne handes and left to Gamaliel S. Pauls master he to Iames and Iames to Simeon and Zacheus This report you shall finde written by Athanasius 1300. yeares since and besides that it is amongest his workes at this day it was repeated 800. yeares agoe in the second Nicene councell as
knowledge and gift not only permitted but also desired to exhort the people and giue thanks to God in other mens charges Philand This might be but how proue you this was the fault which the Apostle reproued Theo. I need not proue that If this which I speake might easilie come to passe then your inuincible arguments be sensible follies corelude vtterly no such thing as you imagine Your argumeÌ„t cannot be impregnable til your consequent be ineuitable since so many cases may be put though your antecedent be admitted to repel your consequeÌ„t what wisedome was it to make such vaunt of your forces not onely before the victory but when you see your selues so voide of al good artillerie Phi. Againe the publike seruice had but one language in this exercise they speak with many tongues Theo. Againe you can neither verifie your antecedent nor iustifie your consequent Set order of publike seruice they had none in the Apostles time the Pastors and ministers praied by heart as the spirite of God guided them This gift of praier some turned to their owne prayse and ostentation when they were admitted to giue thanks to God in the congregation of the faithfull and made their prayers in such tongues as they preferred or would seeme endewed with though the people vnderstood them not for which attempt the Apostle controlleth them Phi. These are your conceiuements Theo. Were they no mans but mine your reasons are weake and euen contemptible which you proclaimed for inuincible but as you heard S. Ambrose did informe you that these men whom S. Paul here toucheth vsed sometimes the Syrian and most times the Hebrew tongue in tractatibus aut oblationibus in their discourses to the people or ministration of the Sacrament as they pleased Phi. In the publike seruice euery man had not his owne speciall tongue his speciall interpretation special reuelation proper Psalmes but in this they had Theophil In the publike seruice of the church the ministers and Elders which were many both trauelers and there dwellers had euery man his Psalme his instruction his tongue reuelation or interpretation as the spirite of grace thought it most expedient for the setting foorth of Gods glory and the edifieng of their faithes that were present and other order of diuine seruice in the Apostolike and primatiue church wee reade for certaintie of none besides the action of the Lordes supper which the Apostles and so no doubt their churches alwaies vsed in the end of their publik meetings but with not set prayers saue onely the Lordes prayer as Gregorie confesseth the rest of their prayers blessinges and thanksgiuinges were in euery place made by the gift of the holy Ghost inspiring such as were set to teach and gouerne the church And though you haue long since their time framed a Liturgie in Iames name wheron you seeme to ground all the cauils that here are vrged as inuincible arguments yet for so much as the church of Christ did not acknowledge it and the words of Gregory directly impugne it we return that home to the forge whence it came your arguments back to you as wanting both truth strength to beare out your cause Phi. The publike seruice had in it the administration of the holy Sacrament principally which was not done in the time of this conference Theo. Though the Lordes supper was not ministred at that instant when the Pastors people were intending for doctrine yet did it follow immediatly vpon this exercise finished and due thankes offered to God by the whole church for the redemption of the world in the blood of his sonne neither besides your bold and bare negatiue do we see any cause why the singing blessing and thanksgiuing which S. Paul speaketh of should not be vnderstood to be the prayers and Psalmes that were vsed before after and at the Lordes table this I am sure S. Paul willeth all thinges to be done to edification and all must containe the church seruice ministration of the Sacrament as wel as Psalms or any other exercises of the church So that if the special discourse did not touch the ministration of the Lords supper the general direction doeth comprise it so much the more because the whole church as wel the people as the Preachers as well women as men haue equall interest in the Lords supper to be thereat fed and thereby stirred to giue thanks to God for the richesse of his mercie in the death of Christ. And if you thinke that vnderstanding and consenting is more needful for the people in any other prayers than in those that are made at the Lordes Table you erre not of ignorance but of wilfulnesse and care not what you say so you may entertaine the simple with somewhat for the sauing of your credite Phi Into this exercise were admitted the Catechâ—mens and Infidels and whosoeuer would in this weomen before S. Pauls order did speake and prophesie so did they neuer in the ministration of the Sacrament With manie other plaine differences that by no meanes the Apostles wordes can be rightly and truely applied to the Corinthians Seruice then or ours nowe Theo. You should close vppe the matter with the strongest argument you haue and this is the weakest At their prophesies that was at their sermons and exhortations Infidels and nouices not yet baptized might bee at their mysteries they might not be but were sent away and the doores shut when the faithfull approached to the Lordes Table Hence you may conclude that euery hearer of the woorde may not bee partaker of the diuine mysteries but that the one did not presently followe the other in the Seruice of the Church or that S. Paul did not meane them both you shall neuer conclude yea rather the sending them away that might not bee present argueth that the rest which were left did foorthwith addresse them-selues to the participation of the Lordes Table and that all which was doone in the Church before both exhorting and praying was referred to this end to make them meete commers to that heauenlie banquet Phi. That may bee but S. Paul speaketh of the one and not of the other Theo. That you should prooue if you coulde tell howe Phi. We haue alreadie prooued it by inuincible argumentes Theo. Marie that you haue if blinde surmises and loose sequeles may stand for argumentes otherwise what haue you saide that hath any shewe of proofe I will not saie of inuincible proofe Your maine foundation is a dreame of your owne that the Church of Corinth had a prescribed number and order of prayers pronounced by some one Chaplin that sayde his lesson within booke and might not goe one line besides his Missale for any good This you imagine was their Church Seruice all other prayers Psalmes blessings and thankes-giuings though they were vsed openly in the congregation and the whole people bound to say Amen you will not haue to
Primatiue church of Christ vsed and allowed all tongues as well barbarous as learned for the people to make their praiers in Phi. You say not trueth Theo. If I doe you knowe your reward You must be catholikes of the second edition when men began to fall from trueth to Apostasie For with the right and ancient faith of Christs church your Romish errours haue no fellowship Phi. And what haue yours that were neuer heard of before Luthers time Theo. Howe chaunceth then our doctrine is confirmed by the scriptures and witnessed in all the Fathers where yours is not Phi. Not ours Theo. Not yours Your praying in a tongue not vnderstood of the hearers your single and solitarie Masses where no man eateth besides the Priest your decurted communions where wanteth one halfe of Christes institution I aske not howe you proue these points to bee catholike that would trouble your braines too much but what one Father haue you for them lest you seeme to deriue your religion you know not from whom Catholike should haue al the Fathers we demaund you but one If you come short of that what hope caÌ„ you haue to recouer the rest Phi. The doubt is not of our faith but of yours you must shewe by what title you claime your church which was in our possession before you were borne Theo. The walles you had for those we striue not The faith which is the fouÌ„dation of the church you neuer had for that wee stand Phi. But who standeth with you besides your selues Theo. I haue told you the word of God and cleare consent of that church which you dare not deny to bee both ancient and catholike Phi. First then where is your antiquitie for praying in a barbarous tongue Theo. That which I haue saide might seeme sufficient you bringing against it neither reason nor authoritie but onely Pilates that put Christ to death Phi. That the people did vnderstand the prayers which were made in the church you shew some proofe but those we say were in Hebrew Greeke or Latine Marie that the primatiue church permitted any Nation to make their praiers in a barbarous tongue for that as yet I see no proofe Theo. Reuiew that which is already sayd and you shall find that not onely the people did sing the Psalmes and answere the praiers that were made in the church but also they were taught it was a point of their christian dutie so to do and that neither the Priests voice was needefull nor the prayer publike except the whole multitude did both coÌ„ceiue the meaning and confirme the blessing of their Pastour and Reader which in a strange tongue they can not therefore the conclusion is infallible that in the Primatiue church no tongue was vsed but such as the people vnderstood and in a barbarous nation of necessitie that must be a barbarous tongue Phi. But wee require some testimonie that a barbarous tongue was vsed in prayer for it may be that all the nations in the worlde vnderstood Hebrewe Greeke or Latine else why did Pilate set the title on our Sauiours crosse in those three tongues but that al nations might read it and that they could not except they vnderstood one of those three tongues which I coniecture they did Theo. A coniecture fit for the cause you haue in hand Pilate did not set vp the title for all the men women and children in the world to see or read as you suppose but for those that were gathered out of all Countries to Ierusalem at the time of his execution and that strangers as well as Iewes might knowe the cause why Christ was adiudged to dy the superscription was writteÌ„ in Hebrew Greeke and Latine without the knowledge of one of the which tongues no stranger vsed to frequent those countries least he should be forced as dombe meÌ„ are to worke with signes which in trauellers or ligers that haue any busines is meere madnes without some interpreter Had all men vnderstood one of those three toungs as you imagine what needed the holy Ghost to haue bestowed any moe tongues on the Apostles when they were sent to preach to al nations but the Hebrewe Greeke and Latine for the whole worlde as you say spake and vnderstood those three You may do well to controle the holy Ghost and with your monsterous and false surmise to say the gift of moe tongues than these three was not needefull And where is then the diuision of toungs which God inflicted on the Sonnes of men if the whole earth had recouered her selfe to be of three tongues Or how could any Nation bee barbarous if ech coulde naturally speake some one of the learned tongues Yea why might not the ofspring of Adam haue gotten from three tongues to one with more easie and quicker speede than from an infinite variety of tongues to three and so frustrate the iudgement and wisedome of God in confounding their speech Philand I doe not auouch it for a certaintie Theophil Looke better vnto it and you will reiect it not onely for an impossibilitie but euen for an impiety And yet were you so absurdly and wickedly bent you hurt not our assertion For wee can proue that the primatiue church allowed and vsed praiers by precise â—ermes in barbarous tongues Origen saieth The Grecians name God in the Greeke tongue the Romanes in the Latine singulâ—item natiua vernacula lingua Deum precantur laudibus pro se quisque extollâ—t and euery Nation in their natiue and mother tongue make their praiers to God and yeeld him his due praises S. Hierom describing the solemne funerall of Paula that died at Bethleem in Iurie saith Hebraeo Graeco Latino Syróque sermone psalmi in ordine personabant non solum triduo donec sâ—bter Ecclesiam iuxta specum Domini conderetur sed per omnem hebdomadam The Psalmes were sung by order in the Hebrewe Greeke Latine and Syrian tongue not onely those three dayes til shee was laid in earth within the church and neere to the sepulchre of our Sauior but that whole weeke And least you should thinke this order of singing in diuerse tongues was vsed but once commending the very same place for the great concourse of Nations farre and neere thither resorting and there leading their liues he maketh Paula then aliue giue this report to Marcella Quicunque in Gallia fuerit primus huc properat diuisus ab orbe nostro Britannus si in religione processerit dimisso sole occiduo quaerit locum fama tantum Scripturarum relatione notum Quid referamus Armenios quid Persas quid Indiae quid Aethiopum populos ipsamque iuxta Aegyptum fertilem Monachorum Pontum Cappadociam Syriam Caelen Mesopotamiam cunctáque orientis examina Vox quidem dissona sed vna religio tot pene Psallentium Chori quot Gentium diuersitates Whosoeuer is the chiefest in Fraunce hither he hasteneth The Britane
with a strait and generall charge for the cup drinke yee all of this and Paul receiuing his instructions from Christ his master proposed the same to the Lay men of Corinth no lesse than to the ministers excepting none Iewes nor Gentiles bond nor free from this precept how dare you Philander and your late Conuents restraine the people from drinking of it The Lordes cup is the new couenant which he hath made with all beleeuers do none beleeue but Priests For the remission of sinnes are laie men no sinners as a memoriall of his death maie the people loose that remembrance It is saith Paul THE COMMVNION OF HIS BLOOD and the partaking of his spirite haue the people no right to the blood of Christ that was shed for them or will you claime his spirite as peculiar to Priestes which is common to all the children of God Philand The Church I warraunt you did ponder and consider these reasons when shee tooke this order and finding them vnsufficient shee decreed with vs that the cuppe was not necessarie for the Laie people Theoph. What Church I praie you The primatiue and auncient Church of Christ where catholicisme should beginne Wee can assure you no. They ministred in both kindes to Priest and people men and women without exception DIONYSIVS The breade that was whole being broken into manie partes and ONE CVP DIVIDED AMONG ALL the Bishoppe in these twaine perfiteth the holie Sacrifice The sacred Communion of one and the same breade AND COMMON CVP bindeth Christians to diuine concorde and likenesse of manners as being nourced vp together IGNATIVS There is but one flesh of the Lord Iesu and one blood that was shed for vs there is also but one bread that is broken for all and ONE CVP THAT IS DIVIDED AMONG ALL. ATHANASIVS If those be his expositions which you haue set forth in his name The dreadfull cup was deliuered by the Lorde TO ALL MEN ALIKE CYPRIAN How doe we prepare the people for the cup of martyrdome if we doe not first admit them in the Church to DRINKE THE LORDES CVP BY RIGHT OF COMMVNION AVGVSTINE Not onelie no man is forbidden but rather ALL MEN that seeke for life ARE ENCOVRAGED TO DRINKE And againe speaking to the people simul bibimus quia simul viuimus WE DRINKE TOGETHER at the Lordes table because we liue together CHRYSOSTOME as before One bodie is proposed to al and one cup. GREGORIE The blood of Christ is now not powred into the hands of vnbeleeuers but into the mouthes of the faithfull THEOPHILACT How happeneth thou drinkest alone whereas this dreadfull cup was deliuered to all men indifferentlie HAYMO The cup is called a communion by Paul because all men are partakers of it PASCHASIVS Christ gaue the cup and said Drinke ye all of this as well the Ministers as the rest of the beleeuers Infinite are the places which might be brought to make faith that for a thousand yeares in the Church of God the people were not depriued of the Lordes cup. The master of your sentences who liued verie neare twelue hundred after Christ knewe not this maiming and paring of Christes institution which now raigneth in your churches Therefore is the Sacrament saith he celebrated in two kinds that in Christ the taking of soul and flesh and in vs the redeeming of them both might be signified For the flesh of Christ is offered for our flesh and his soul for our soules It is taken vnder both kindes which profiteth both partes If it shoulde be receiued in one kinde onely that would declare that it auayled for the safegard of one part onely soule or body not for both ioyntly The gloze that followed an hundred yeeres after resteth him-selfe on the same reason with the same wordes and shrinketh not from the communion in both kinds but in the danger of sicknes or point of necessitie Insirmus vel sanus in necessitate potest sumere corpus sine vino a sicke man whome the drinking of wyne might hurt or an whole man in case of necessitie where hee can not choose may receiue the body without the wyne Then in the Church where prouision might soone bee made for all and no necessitie coulde bee pretended it was not as yet counted lawefull for the people to receiue the Sacrament in one kinde Philand But if the Church after vppon good deliberation sawe sufficient cause to chaunge that order who made you controllers of Christes spouse Theoph. That vnshamefast harlot which foureteene hundred yeeres after Christes ascention woulde both alter her husbandes will and defraude his children of that portion which their Lorde and Sauiour had allotted them did prostitute her selfe and bastardize her ofspring as much as lay in her and is no way woorthie to haue the honour of a mother or name of a spouse though shee paint her selfe neuer so freshly with youthfull colours And the reasons which mooued her so to doe were as ridiculous as the fact was impious Durandus sayth Non esset decens tantum sanguinem conficere nec calix capax inueniretur It woulde not bee decent to consecrate so much blood as must serue the people neither can there so bigge a chalice bee gotten Gerson beateth his braines to iustifie that which the councell of Constance did in taking the Lordes cup wholy from the people not yet nyne score yeeres agoe and when hee hath all doone hee commeth in with these toyes THE length of Laymens beardes the lothsomnes to drinke after others the costlynes of so much wyne the difficulties first of getting then of keeping wyne from sowring freezing and breeding of flies the burden in bearing and daunger in spilling it last of all the peoples vnwoorthynes to match Messere magnifico the Priest in the receite of this Sacrament Bee not these valiant inducements for you to chaunge the last Will and Testament of Christ Iesus and abrogate that which was orderly kept in the church for a thousande yeeres and vpward And yet these were the grauest and profoundest considerations that your friendes had to leade them to this attempt and these you knowe bee verie miserable Gerson I graunt shifteth what hee can to bring other proofes that both kindes are not simply needfull but why the councell of Constance tooke the cup cleane from the people which violence before was neuer offered them of this I say Gerson a chiefe agent in that councell labouring purposely to shewe the reason of their doings neither doeth nor could yeelde any better or weightier occasions than these which I nowe repeated and the reader shall find blazed with great confidence in the second part of the foresaid treatise O deintie fathers and sleeke diuines which for long beardes and vnsweete breathes for a litle paynes and no great charges for frostes in winter and flies in sommer thought best to correct Christes institution and not onely to forsake the
vmitate Ecclesiae Peter the first stone that Christ laid in the foundatioÌ„ of his church Cyprian de vmitate Ecclesiae Exordium and fundamentum all one Peter at this day lieth in the foundation of the church where Christ placed him Galat. 4. Ephes. 2. Heb. 12. Chalcedonens concilij actio 1. Leo tooke Theodoretes part against Dioscorus Euagrius lib. 1. cap. 10. Leo Epist. 61. ad TheodoretuÌ„ Chalcedonens Concilij actio 8. Their examples proue the Bishop of Rome had no such power as he now claimeth The Pope besought the Emperour with sighes teares for a Councel and could not preuaile In all these examples the Bishop of Rome neuer so much as alleadged or mentioned his vniuersall power which your Iesuites defend As the Bishop of Rome resisted others so others resisted him Who they were that resisted the Bishop of Rome Galat. 2. Ibidem Paul resisting Peter that after his installation at Rome if the Romish account be true which most men doubt Euseb. Chronic. in anno 44. Galat. 2. The Papistes make Peter a Nonresident Rhemish annor in Epi. ad Gal. cap. 2. vers 11. Whether Paul might resist Peter is an vngodly doubt Polycarpus withstood Anicetus for the obseruation of Easter Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 26. Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 25. Polycrates withstood Victor for the same cause Ibidem A great multitude of Bishops with Polycrates against Victor Euseb. lib. 5. cap. 26. Victor reproued by his owne side for offering to excommunicate the churches of Asia that stood against him Cyprian lib. 1. Epist. 4. Cyprian Epist. ad Pompeium contra Epist. Stephan CypriaÌ„s stoutnesse against Stephanus Bishop of Rome Ibidem Cyprian in an ill cause resisting the Bishop of Rome did and doth go for a Martyr and father of the church Flauianus withstood 4. Bishops of Rome though their cause were not much amisse Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 3. Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 23. Who tooke part with Flauianus against the Bishops of Rome The Prince willeth Flauianus to keepe his Church though foure Popes for 17. yeares togither impugned him Ibidem Ibidem Nice lib. 14. cap. 27. Cyrill esteemed not the communion of the Bishop of Rome Theodor. lib. 5. cap. 34. Those resistances were offered not by priuate persons but by Councels and Countries Euseb. lib. 5. Cap. 24. 25. Ibidem Cap. 26. Concil Cartha de haeret baptisandis inter opera Cypriani Sozome lib. 7. Cap. 11. Theodoret. li. 5. Cap. 23. Socrat. lib. 6. Cap. 18. The sixt couÌ„cel of Carthage stoutly resisted the Bishop of Rome and conuinced him of forgery Vide Concilium Carthaginense sextum Cap. 3. Bonifacius saith the diuelled Saint Augustine the rest to be sawcie with the Bishop of Rome Bonifacius secundus ad Eulalium de reconcilia Carthaginens Eccl. Concilio tomo 1. Aphric concilij Cap. 92. Appeales to Rome condemned by Saint August and his Collegues Aphric concil Cap. 101. Aphric concil Cap. 105. The fathers neuer heard of Christs vicar general Where then are appeales to Rome The holy Ghost as wel â—â— one proâ—â—ace as in 〈◊〉 The Councel of Nice corrupted by the Bishop of Rome The Popes claime called the smokie pride of the world What the Councel of Africa denied to the Bishop of Rome Was this resisted or no Epist. Aegiptiorum ad MarcuÌ„ pro exempla Niceni Concilij tomo Conciliorum 1. The Papists to saue the Popes credit haue coÌ„mitted shameful forgeries Rescriptum Iulij contra orientales pro Athanasio And he a wise man to chose the worst Episto Africani conci ad Bonif. Cap. 101. No decretals can discredit the diligence of the African Bishops Concilium Carthaginense sextum Cap. 9. Concilij Afric Cap. 102. 103. Their Decretales are too yong to out-face the authenticke copies Ruffin lib. 1. Cap. 6. The Popes silence then conuinceth this forgerie since Marke the likelihoode of this fable and see the shamefastnes of Papists that mocke the worlde with them Extat Socratis lib. 1. Cap. 9. The Canons burnt before they were made Sozome lib. 1. Cap. 17. Beda distinc 16. sexta Sozom. lib. 3. Cap. 1. Athanas. not neere Aegypt when this letter was written thence in his name Rescriptuuâ— Marci Athanasio Aegyptijs Vide Sozome lib. 1. Cap. 25. 28. Concil Africa Cap. 102. An other forgerie vnder Iulius name worse than the former Rescript Iulij ad Orientales Cap. 29. The Papists haue forged a decretal in Iulius name where as his true letter is extant in Athanasius Apologie Socrat. lib. 1. Cap. 40. A man may feele this forgerie with his fingers Sozome lib. 3. Cap. 5. Athanasij Apologia 2. The first dated Calend. Octobris the second calend Nouembris the same yeare Euagâ— li. 1. ca. 4. Theodoret against the Popes deputy The Legats of Rome threatned by the first Ephesine Councel In Apologet. Cyril mandatuÌ„ Synod Ephesâ— Vide concilij Chalcedonens actioneÌ„ 16. The great councel of Chalcedon ouerruleth the Bishop of Rome Actio 16 concil Chalcedonen The Popes Legates could not then commaund in general couÌ„cels The Councel of Chalcedon proceeding without the Romish Legates Chalcedo CoÌ„cil cano 28. actio 15. repetitur actio 16. For what cause Rome had the supremacie giuen her Why Leo was so earnest against this Canon The Romish Legates their allegations reiected the second time in the Councel of Chalcedon EiusdeÌ„ Concilij â—câ—io 16. The selfsame priuileges that Rome had giuen to Constantinople The Pope had no negatiue in Councels Canons made in Counceles mauger the Bishop of Rome his legates Liberatus Cap. 13. Concilij sexti Constantinop Cap. 36. How the Popes law vseth ancient customes Distinct. 22. Renouantes A monsterous corruption of a councel turning an affirmatiue into a negatiue Africani concil Cap. 92. The Canon law glozeth the Councell of African quite against the text Caus. 2. quaest 6. placuit Saint Austen forged to make the Popes decretals of equall authoritie with the scriptures De doctrina Christiana lib. 2. Cap. 8. Distinct. 19. In canonicis Rubricae Ibidem Glosa Ibidem The britanes 4000 yeare agoe woulde yeelde no subiection to the Popes legate Beda lib. 2. Cap. 2. Bed histo gentis Anglorum lib. 2. Cap. 2. Galfrid monemutens lib. 8. Cap. 4. 1200 monks in one time chose rather to die than to be subiect to the Bishop of Rome Concili Laterae sub Innocentio 3 Cap. 4 The Grecians detesting the Bishop of Rome Paul Aemil. in Philippo 4. Idem Aeneas Syluius lib. 9. epitomes in decades Blondi Sessio vltima Florentiae in literis vnionis Graecorum responsio in vltima sessione Florentiae Platina in Eugenio 4. Luitprand li. 6. Cap. 10. Ibidem Cap. 7. The germans against the Bishop of Rome Platina in Gregorio 6. Cronicon Abba Vrspergensis Ibidem anno 1080. This was he that first ventred to depose Princes Ibidem anno 1083. The Romans reiected him as wel as the Germans did Platina in Gregorio 7. The later Italians make Hildebrand a Sainct for
thinges though happily the Prophetes did aduise them and persuade them To be directed and aduised by others doth not hinder the Princes authoritie The high Priest among the Iewes had his commission from Gods owne mouth the Pope hath not Deut. 17. The best christian Princes haue followed the steppes of the kings of Iudah God himselfe speaketh and commandeth by the hearts and lawes of Princes August de ciui Dei li. 5. cap. 24. Idem Epi. 166. Ibidem Aug. Epist. 50. Religion the chiefest care that Princes ought to haue Cod. lib. 1. tit 17 de veter iure enucleando § Deo authore Authen constit 6. Codic Theodos. lib. 16. tit 4. de religione § Ea quae Legum nouell Theodos. tit 2. de Iudeis Samaritanis § Inter caeteras Valentinian himselfe was content at length to coÌ„maund for truth Theodoret. lib. 4. cap. 8. Codic lib. 1. tit 6. NesacruÌ„ Baptisma iteratur Euagrius lib. 3. cap. 14. The right faith is the only strength of an earthly kingdom Idem lib. 5. cap. 4. Niceph. dedicatio operis In Greece the Emperours kept this power 1300. yeres after Christ. Ibidem paulo ante Diligent care of Gods causes the surest proppe of a Princes seat A king of this land making lawes for religion a 1000 yeres after Christ. Lege 1. Lege 6. Lege 7. Lege 14 15. Lege 16. Lege 19 21. Lege 22. Lege 26. â—iter politica iâ—ra erusilem Lege 4 6. The weakest of these places proue that Princes meddle with ecclesiasticall causes which they would seeme to â—ray them from by Osiâ—s wordes And consequently their sword stretcheth vnto spiritual things as well as vnto temporal When papists be posed with these places and cannot auoide them they slip to an other question and cauill about the direction of Princes vnto trueth Princes may commaund for all points of trueth as well as for one He that may commaund for trueth may iustly punish for trueth As lawfull for the Prince to punish Idolaters and heretikes as theeues and murderers Both sides graunt that Princes must punish as well spirituall as temporall offences He that wil punish must first prohibit If Princes may punish prohibite that which is euill in matters of religion ergo they may commaund establish that which is good in the same causes August epist. 50. Idem contra Cresconium lib. 3. cap. 51. Papists grant princes may punish for religion but not coÌ„maund yet punishing is a very forcible kind of coÌ„maunding Nothing clearer than that Princes may commaund for matters of religion August epist. 166. Ibidem The word coÌ„maunding which they most auoide is most vsual in the sacred scriptures auncient lawes of Christian Princes Epist. 66. * Nouel constitut 3.5.6.16.37.42.57.58.59.67.77.79.83.109.117.131.132.133.141.144.146 If princes at all may meddle with matters of religion they must needes commaund Or if the Iesuites will not graunt so much let them looke to the places that went before and presently follow They would none of this if they could chose because they hold that Bishops in these cases must command Princes What Osius ment by saying CoÌ„mandâ— vs not in this kinde Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 3. cap. 23. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 28. Euseb. de vita Constant. lib. 4. cap. 42. Socra lib. 1. ca. 4. Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 27. Idem lib. 1. cap. 38. Theodoret. li. 4. cap. 8. Idem lib. 4. cap. 7. 1. Tim. 3. Cod. lib. 1. tit 6. Ne sanct bapt iâ—eretur Cod. lib. 1. tit 1. Ibidem § nullus Socrat. lib. 5. ca. 7. Gregor epist. li. 4. ca. 78. LeguÌ„ Franciae lib. 1. ca. 76. Ibidem cap. 71. Chalced. Concil actio epist. Theodosii Valentiniani ad Dioscorum The Prince appointeth what Bishops shal be present at the Councell Ibidem Imperatoris epist. ad eund◠§ Diosco reuerendo The Prince maketh the president of the Councel The Prince limiteth who shall haue voyces in the Councell Ibidem Imperatoris commonitorium ad Elpidum Ibidem oratio Martiani ad Synodum Ibidem epist. Euseb. ad Imperator Nouel Constit. 6. § Maxima quidem These commaundemeÌ„ts of Iustinian bound the Bishop of Rome no lesse than other Bishops Ibidem § hanc non pecunijs Ibidem § â— quis auteâ— talis Ibidem § illud etiam definimus Ibidem § sed neque effusas The prince coÌ„maundeth the whole clergie Patriarks Metropolitanes Bishops and the rest whatsoeuer to obserue his ecclesiastical lawes Nouel constit 16. ad finem Constit. 57. Constit. 123. § exigatur autem prius These lawes exteÌ„ded to all prouinces patriarkes Ibidem § prae omnibus autem illud Ibidem § interdicimus autem Ibidem § quis a vero Synodes called for ecclesiastical causes were tied to the Lawes imperiall Ibidem C. ad haec iubemus All Bishops commanded by the Prince Ibidem § Insuper interdicimus Eadem constit § omnibus vero epis Vniust excoÌ„munication punished by the Princes lawes Eadem constit § praeterea si qui. The Courts and consistories of all Bishops Archbishops patriarks limited as well to the Princes lawes as to the Canons No appeal from the Patriark Eadem constit § Clericos auteÌ„ Euagrius lib. 4. cap. 9. Idem li. 5. ca. 6. Idem lib. 5. ca. 5. Cod. lib. 1. tit 3. de epist. cleri C. si quenquam Cod. lib. 1. tit 2. de sacrosactis ecclesiis C. decernimus Osius words if they were not diuersly answered by vs may not controle the perpetuall practise of Christs Church The cunning of the papists in this point is either to belie our doctrine or to slip themselues froÌ„ the question The summe effect of the former allegations authorities for the Princes power Or if they doe not disproue them Apolog. cap. 1. The Iesuites in their Apologie for all their vaunts neuer come neere the princes power which we defend The Princes authoritie as we defend it The Princes supremacie as we maintaine it Neither of these points touched in the Apolog. The absurdities which the Iesuites muster against the Princes supremacie Apolog. cap. 4. sect 21. 1. Cor. 14. 1. Tim. 2. Sect. 22. Epist. 55. Sect. 23. August contra Gaudentij epist. lib. 2. Cap. 25. Sect. 24. Sect. 25. Their absurdities be grounded on their owne dreames not on our doctrine To this that Princes may coÌ„maund for trueth no absurdity can be consequent WheÌ„ Princes coÌ„maund that which is good it is Christ no man els that commaundeth by their mouthes Epist. 166. Ibidem Ibidem Their absurdities must be inferred vppon our assertion if they bring them against vs. May not Christ appoint as well as the Pope what Princes shall commaund To coÌ„maund that which God commaundeth is pietie and no absurditie Supreme as we professe it hath no absurditie consequent to it This misconstering of supreme is the ground of all their absurdities Apol. cap. 4. Sect. 21. Mat. 28. Princes giue no commissioÌ„ but a permission and free libertie without let