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A07698 A dyaloge of syr Thomas More knyghte: one of the counsayll of oure souerayne lorde the kyng [and] chauncellour of hys duchy of Lancaster. Wherin be treated dyuers maters, as of the veneration [and] worshyp of ymages [and] relyques, prayng to sayntys, [and] goyng o[n] pylgrymage. Wyth many othere thyngys touching the pestylent sect of Luther and Tyndale, by the tone bygone in Sarony, and by tother laboryed to be brought in to Englond; Dyaloge of dyvers maters More, Thomas, Sir, Saint, 1478-1535. 1529 (1529) STC 18084; ESTC S104969 282,100 256

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late in the pystle that the kynges hyghnes translated in to englyshe of hys own whych hys grace made in laten answeryng to the letter of Luther my mynd gyueth me that hys maiesteis of hys blyssed zele so mynded to moue thys mater vnto the prela●ꝭ of the clergye amōg whom I haue petreyued som of the gretest and of the best of theyr own myndys well inclynable therto all redy that we lay people shall in thys mater ere longe tyme passe excepte the fawte be founden in our selfe be well fully satysfyed and contēt ¶ In good fayth quod he that wyll in my mynd be very wel done And now am I for my mynd in all thys mater fully content satysfyed ¶ Well quod I than wyll we to dyner and the remanaunt wyll we fynyshe after And therwyth went we to mete ¶ The ende of the thyrd boke ¶ The fourthe boke ¶ The fyrst chapyter ¶ The author sheweth wherfore yt were not well done to suffer Luthers bokis or eny other heretykes to go abrode and be red amonge the peple though there were some good thyngys in theym among that bad WHen we had after dyner a lytell paused your frend I drew our self aside ī to the gardyn And ther syttyng down in an herber he bygan to entre forth in to the mater sayng that he had well perceyued that not in hys cuntre onely but also in the vnyuer syte where he had ben there were that had none euyll opynyō of Luther but thoughte that hys bokys were by the clergye forb●den of malyce and euyll wyll to th ende that folk sholde not surely se and perfaytely percyue what he sayth or at the leste what thynge he meaneth by hys wordys whych wyll not appere they thynk by a lyne taken owt in the myddys of a lefe but by the dylygent consyderacyō of the hole mater Without whych mē myght impute a wronge blame they sa yt to the beste wryters that euer wrote ī thys world But they thynke that the clergye wyll not haue hys bokys red bycawse that in theym lay men may rede the prestys fawtys whych was they say the very cause of the condempnacyon For ellys whyther he had wryten well or ●uyl yet they say hys bokys had ben kept in mennys handys and red For there ys they thynke therin though some parte were nought meny thyngys yet well sayd wherof ther was no reason that men sholde lese the profyte for the bad And also reason men thynke yt were that all were herd that cā be sayd touchyng the treuth to be knowen concernynge the maters of our saluacyon to th entent that all herd and perceyued men may for theyr own suretie that better these and hold the ryght way ¶ Forsoth q I yf yt were now dowtful and ambyguouse whyther y● chyrch of Cryst were in the ryght rule of doctryne or not than were yt very necessary to gyue them all good audyence that could and wold eny thynge dyspute on eyther partye for yt or agaynste yt to th end that yf we were now in a wrōg way we myghte leue yt and walke in some better But now on that tother syde yf yt so be as in dede yt is that Crystꝭ chyrch hath the true doctryne all redy the self same that saynt Powle wold not gyue an aungell of heuen audyēce to the contrary what wysdome were yt now therin to shew our selfe so mystrustfull and wauerynge that for to serche whyther our fayth were false or trewe we shold gyue heryng not to an aungell of heuen but to a fond frere to an apostate to an open incestuouse lechour a playne lymme of the deuyll and a manyfest messenger of hell In whyche wordys yf ye wolde happely thynk that I vse my self to sore to call hym by suche odyouse namys ye must consyder that he spareth not both vntruly and wythout necessyte in hys raylyng bokys to call by as euyll theym whō his duty were hyghly to reuerēce where as I do bytwene vs twayn call hym but as hym self hath shewed hym in hys wrytynge in hys lyuynge and in hys mad maryage And yet I neyther do yt nor wold were yt not that the mater selfe of reason dothe requyre yt For my parte ys yt of necessyte to tell how naught he ys bycause that the wors the man ys the more madnes were yt for wyse men to gyue hys false fables herkenyng agaynst goddys vndouted trewthe by hys holy spyryte taughte vnto hys chyrche and by suche multytude of myracles by so myche blode of holy martyrs by the vertuouse lyuyng of so many blyssed confessours by the puryte and clennesse of so many chaste wydowes and vndefouled vyrgyns by the holsom doctryne of so many holy doctours and fynally by the hole consent and agrement of all Crysten peple thys fyften hundred yere confermed And therfore not eny respect vnto hys raylyng agaynst the clergye ys as some wold haue it seme the cause of hys condempnacyon and suppressyon of hys bokys For the good men of the clergye be not so sore greued wyth theym that towche the fawtys of the bad nor the bad theym selfe be not so renderered that for the onely talkyng of theyr fautꝭ they wolde bannyshe the bokis that were good in other thyngys bysyde For ellꝭ could not the bokys of many olde holy fathers haue endured so long wherin the vycys of theym that in the clergye be naught be very vehemētly rebuked But the very cause why hys bokys be not suffred to be red is bycause hys heresyes be so many and so abhomynable and the prouys therwyth he pretēdeth to make theym probable be so far frome reason and trouth and so farre agaynst the ryght vnderstandynge of holy scrypture wherof vnder coloure of grete zele and affeccyon he laboreth to destroye the credence and good vse and fynally so far stretcheth all thyng agaynst good maner and vertue prouokyng the world to wrong opynions of god and boldenesse in synne wrechednes that there can no good but myche harme grow by the redyng For yf there were the substaunce good and of errour or ouersyght som cocle among the corne whych myght be syfted ow● and the remanaūt stand in stede men wold haue bē contēt therwyth as they be wyth suche other But now ys hys not byspryent wyth a few spottys but with more then halfe venym poysoned the hole wyne and that right roten of yt selfe And thys done yf purpose and malyce not wythout an euyll spyryte in suche wyse walkyng wyth hys wordys that the contagyon therof were lykely to enfecte a feble soule as the sauoure of a sykenes sore enfecteth an hole body Nor the trourth is not to be ler●ed of euery mannys mouth For as Cry●t was content not that the deuyll shold cal hī goodꝭ sōne though it were stew so is he not contēt that a deuyls lymme as Luther ys or Tyndal shold ●eche hys flokke the trouth for infectyng theym wyth theyr false deuylysh
fayned yet were that no cause to mystrust the remnaunt But be yt that amonge so many myracles as be dayly told wrytē dō at diuers pilgrimagꝭ betwē which myracles and other why ye put a deference we shall as I sayd before knowe ferther your mīd hereafter And be it also that of such as long haue be reputed and styll taken for trew your selfe vndoutedly knewe sum for very false wold ye therfore thynk that among all y● remnaūt ther were neuer one trew what if ye fynd som fayer womā paynted whose colour ye had went wer naturall wyll ye neuer after beleue that any woman in the worlde hath a fayre colour of her selfe If ye fynd som fals flatterers that long semed frēdly wyll ye take euer after all y● world for suche If some proue starke ipochrytes whō the world wold haue sworn for good godly mē shall we therfore mystruste all other for theyr sake and wene there wer none good at all By my troth q he I rode ons ī good cōpany to say y● troth for good cōpany to walsynghā in pylg●●mage where a good felows hors so fell in haltynge that he was fayne to hyer a nother and let hym goo lose whych was so lene and so pore and hallted so sore y● empty as he was he could scant kepe fote with vs. And when we had went we shuld haue left hī behīde sodenly he spyed a mare and forth he lymped on thre legges so lustely that hys masters hors wyth foure fete coud ●●āt ouer take hī But whā he caught hym cam agayne he sware in greate anger all the othys he myght swere that he wold trust haltyng syr Thomas the worse whyle he lyuyd what was that haltīg syr thomas quod I. Mary q he theyr paryshe preste as he told vs as lene and as pore and as haltynge as hys horse and as holy to But syn he wold whyle he lyued mystrust y● haltīg preste for hys haltīg horse yf I fynde an holy horeson halte in ypochrysye I shall not fayle while I lyue to trust all hys felowes the worse well quod I ye speke merely but I wot well ye wyll do better what so euer ye lay Nor I ā sure though ye se sum whyte safyre or byrall soo well counterfete and so set in a ryng that a ryght goode iueller wyll take it for a dyomound yet wyl ye not dowt for all that but that there be in many other ryngꝭ all redy set right diamoūtꝭ in dede Nor ye wyll not mystrust saīt Peter for iudas Nor thoughe the iues were many so noughty that they put chryst to deth● yet ye be wyser I wot● well than the gētyllwomā was whych in talkyng ones wyth my father when she harde saye that our lady was a iewe fyrst could not beleue it but sayd what ye mok I wylle I pray you tell trouth And when it was so fully affermede y● she at last beleued it was she a Iewe quod she so helpe me god and halydō I shall loue her y● worse whyle I lyue I ā sure ye wyll not do so nor mistrust all for some neyther men nor myracles The .xvi. chapiter ¶ Thauthor sheweth that who soo wold enquere shuld sone fynd that at pylgrymagys bene dayly many gret vndowted myracles wroght and well knowen And specyally he speketh of the great open myracle shewed at our lady of Ippyl wyche of late vppon the doughter of Syr Roger went worthe knyghte ANd as for y● poynt y● we spake of concernyng myracles done in our dayes at diuerse imagys where these pylgrymagys be yet could I tell you some such done so openly so farre from all cause of suspycyō and therto testyfyed in such suf●ycyent wyse that he myght seme allmost madde that her●g y● hole mater will mystrust the miracles Amonge whych I durste boldelye tell you for one the wōderfull work of god that was wtyn these few yeres wroght in the house of a ryghte worshypfull knyght syr Roger wentworth vppon dyuerse of hys chyldern and specyally one of hys doughters a very fayr yōge gentyll woman of .xii. yeres of age in maruelouse maner vexyd turmē●yd by our gostely ennemy the deuyll her mynd alienated rauyng with dyspisyng and blasphemye of god and hatered of all halowed thyngꝭ wyth knowleg and perse●uynge of the halowed from the vnhalowed all were she nothyng warned therof And after that moued in her owne mynde and moneshed by the wyll of god to goo to oure ladye of Ippyswyche In the waye of whyche pylgrymage she prophesyed and tolde many thyngys done and sayed at the same tyme ī other placys whyche were proued trew and many thyngꝭ sayed lyyng in her traunce of such wysoome and letnyng that ryght connyng men hyghly marueyled to here of so yong an vnlernede mayden whan her selfe wyst not what she sayde such thyngys vttred and spoken as well lerned men myght haue myssed wyth a lōge study and fynally beyng brought and layed before the ymage of our blessed lady ●as there ī the syght of many worshypfull people so greuouslye turmentede and in face eyene loke countenaūce so grysely chaunged wyth her mouth drawen asyde and her eyene leyd oute vppon her chekys that yt was a terryble syght to behold And after many maruelouse thyngys at the sāe tyme shewed vppon dyuers parssones by the deuyll thorow goddys sufferaūce as well all the remnant as the mayden herself in the presence of all the cūpany restored to they re goode state perfitely cured sodēly And ī thys matter no pretexte of beggyng no suspycyō of faynyng no possybylyte of counterfettyng no symplenesse ī the seers her father and mother ryght honorable and rych sore abashed to se such chaunces in they re chylderne the wytnes grete noūber and many of grete worshyp wysdome and good experyēce the mayd her self to yong to fayne and the fashyon it self to straūge for any man to fayne And the ende of the matter vertuouse the vyrgyne so mouyd ī her mynde with the myracle that she forthwyth for ought her father could do forsoke the world and professed relygyon in a very good and godly cumpanye at the mynoresse where she hath lyued well graciously euer syns The .xvii. chapiter ¶ The messenger laythe forth obieccyons agaynst myracles dōe at pylgrymagys of whych he confessyth many to be trew but he layth causes and reasōs wherby he seyth that many men be moued to beleue and thynk that those myracles that be don there be dōe by the deuyll to sett our hartꝭ vppon ydolatry by the worshyppyng of ymagys in stede of god BUt nowe albe yt as I sayed that I myght allege you thys myracle and proue yt you in such wyse that I wot well ye wold be as far owte of all dowte therof as ye wold be depe in the maruayle of the myracle And peraduēture dyuerse other could I shewe you done of late at dyuerse pylgrymagys and proue them well to yet wold I