Thys is certaine that breuitie whych you pretend was in small commendation with you whych make so often repetitions stuffe in diuers sentences of Doctors and wryters to proue things that no man denyeth translate whole leaues to so small purpose vpon so light occasions make so often digressions sometimes against the vnlernednes sometimes against the malice sometimes against the intemperancie of speach of the authors of the admonition and euery hand while pulling out the sworde vpon them and throughout the whole boke sporting your selfe wyth the quotations in the margent so that if all these where taken out of your boke as winde out of a bladder we should haue had it in a narow roume whych is thus swelled into such a volume and in stead of a boke of .ij. s. we should haue had a pamfiet of two pence And whereas you say that you haue not alleaged these learned fathers for the authors of the libell but for the wise discrete humble and learned to them also I leaue it to consider vpon that whych is alledged by me First howe lyke a diuine it is to seeke for rules in the Doctors to measure the making of ceremonies by whych you mighte haue had in the scriptures there at the riuers heere at the fountaine vncerten there whych heere are certen there in parte false which are heere altogither true then to howe little purpose they serue you and last of all howe they make against you An answer to the ende of the. 29. page beginning at the. 25. at But I trust M. Caluins iudgement VVHy should you trust that M. Caluins iudgement wil weigh wyth them if they be Anabaptists as you accuse them if they be Donatists if Catharists if conspired wyth the Papistes howe can you thinke that they will so easely rest in M. Caluins iudgement whych hated and confuted all Anabaptisme Donatisme Catharisme and Papisme But it is true whych the prouerbe sayth memorem c. he that will speake an vntruthe had neede haue a good memorye and thys is the force of the truthe in the conscience of man that although he suppres it and pretend the contrary yet at vnwares it stealeth out For what greater testimonye coulde you haue geuen of them that they hate all those heresies which you lay to their charge then to say that you trust M. Caluins iudgement wil weigh wyth them Now in dede that you be not deceiued we receiue M. Caluin and weigh of him as of the notablest instrumēt that the Lord hath stirred vp for the purging of his churches and of the restoring of the plaine and sincere interpretation of the scriptures whych hath bene since the Apostles times And yet we do not so read his works that we beleeue any thyng to be true because he sayeth it but so farre as we can esteme that that whych he sayth dothe agree wyth the canonicall scriptures But what gather you out of M. Caluin First that all necessary thyngs to saluation are contained in the scripture who denyeth it In the second collection where you would geue to vnderstande that ceremonies and externall discipline are not prescribed particularly by the worde of God and therfore left to the order of the church you must vnderstande that all externall discipline is not left to the order of the churche being particularly prescribed in the scriptures no more then all ceremonies are left to the order of the church as the sacraments of baptisme and the supper of the Lord wheras vpon the indefinite speaking of M. Caluin saying ceremonies and externall discipline wythout adding all or some you goe about subtelly to make men beleeue that M. Caluin had placed the whole external discipline in the power and arbitrement of the churche For if all externall discipline were arbitrarie and in the choise of the church Excommunication also whych is a part of it might be cast away which I thinke you will not say But if that M. Caluin were aliue to heare hys sentences racked and wrythen to establishe those thyngs whych he stroue so mightely to ouerthrow and to ouerthrow those things that he laboured so sore to establishe what might he say and the iniurie which is done to him is nothing les because he is deade Concerning all the rest of your collections I haue not lightly knowne a man which taketh so much paine with so small gaine and which soweth his sede in the sea wherof there wil neuer rise encrease For I know none that euer denied those things vnles peraduenture you would make the reader beleeue that al those be contentions which moue any controuersy of things which they iudge to be amis and thē it is answered before And now I answer further that they that moue to reformation of things are no more to be blamed as authors of contention then the Phisition which geueth a purgation is to be blamed for the rumbling and stirre in the belly and other disquietnes of the body which should not haue bene if the euil humors and naughty disposition of it had not caused or procured thys purgation Wheras you conclude that these contentions woulde be sone ended if M. Caluins wordes were noted heere we will ioyne with you and will not refuse the iudgement of M. Caluin in any matter that we haue in controuersy with you Which I speake not therfore because I would call the decision of controuersies to men and their words which pertaine only to God and to his worde but because I know hys iudgement in these things to be cleane against you and especially for that you would beare men in hand that M. Caluin is on your side and against vs And as for Peter Martyr and Bucer and Musculus and Bullinger Gualter and Hemingius and the rest of the late wryters by citing of whom you wold geue to vnderstand that they are against vs in these matters there is set downe in the latter end of this boke their seuerall iudgements of the most of these things whych are in controuersy whereby it may appeare that if they haue spoken one word against vs they haue spoken two for vs And wheras they haue wrytten as it is sayde and alleaged in their priuate letters to their freendes againste some of these causes it may appeare that they haue in their workes published to the whole world that they confirme the same causes So y if they wrote any such thyngs they shall be founde not so much to haue dissented from vs as from them selues and therefore we appeale from them selues vnto them selues and from their priuate notes and letters to their publike wrytings as more autenticall You labor still in the fire that is vnprofitably to bring M. Bucer hys Epistle to proue that the church may order things wherof there is no particular and expressed commaundement for there is none denieth it neither is thys saying that all things are to be done in the churche according to the rule of the word of God any thing repugnant vnto
righteousnesse of the righteous from them An other reason he hath which is that the dignitie of the sacramentes doth not depende vpon the man whether he be mynister or no mynister good or euill In deede vpon thys poynt whether he be a good or an euill mynister it dependeth not but on thys poynt whether he be a mynister or no dependeth not only the dignitie but also the being of the sacrament so that I take the baptisme of women to be no more the holy sacrament of baptisme then I take any other daily or ordinary washing of the childe Neyther lette any man thincke that I haue at vnwares slipped into thys asseueration or that I haue forgotten that sone after the times of the Apostles it was the vse of certayne churches that deacons should baptise in the tyme of necessitie as they call it For as for the baptisme of deacons I holde it to be lawfull for because although as it is wyth vs they geue hym the name of deacon yet in deede he is as he then was in the elder tymes a mynister and not a deacon And although he dyd then prouide for the poore and so had two functions which was not meete yet hys office ought to be esteemed of the principall part of hys function which was preaching and mynistring of the Sacramentes in certen cases And as for the baptysing by lay men consydering that it is not only agaynst the word of God but also founded vpon a false grounde and vpon an imagined necessitie which is none in deede it moueth me nothing at all although it be very auncient for so much as the substance of the sacrament depended cheefely of the institution and worde of God which is the forme and as it were the life of the Sacrament of which institution thys is one and of the cheefe partes that it should be celebrated by a mynister For although part of the institution in that the name of the holy Trinitie is called vpon be obserued yet if the whole institution be not it is no more a Sacrament then the papistes communion was which celebrating in one kynde tooke a part of the institution and left the other And for so much as S. Paule sayeth that a man can not preach which is not sent no not although he speake the words of the scripture and interpreate them so I can not see how a man can baptise vnlesse that he be sent to that end although he poure water and rehearse the words which are to be rehearsed in the ministery of baptisme I know there be dyuers difficultyes in thys question and therefore I was lothe to enter into it but that the answearer setteth downe so confidently that it maketh no matter for the truth of baptisme whether he be mynister or no mynister and so whether one haue a calling or no calling Wherein notwithstanding he doth not only by hys often handling of one thing confounde hys reader but hym selfe also and forgetteth that he is in an other question then which is propounded For although it should be graunted hym that the sacrament doth not depende vpon that yet hath he not that which he would haue that women may baptise For it is one thing to say the baptisme which is mynistred by women is good and effectuall and an other thing to say that it is lawfull for women to mynister baptisme For there is no man doubteth but that the baptisme which is mynistred by an hereticall mynister is effectuall and yet I thincke that M. Doctor will not say that therefore an hereticall mynister may baptise and that it is lawfull for heretikes to baptise in the church And therfore men must not only take heede as M. Doctor sayth that they vsurpe not that which they are not called vnto but they must also take heede that they receyue not functions and charges vpon them whereof they are not capable although they be thereunto called In the 153. page M. Bucers censure vpon the communion booke is cited for the allowance of that it hath touching priuate baptisme and consequently of the baptisme by women It may be that as M. Bucer although otherwyse very learned hath other grose absurdities so he may haue that But it had bene for the credite of your cause if you had shewed that out of those wrytinges which are publyshed and known to be his and not out of those wherof men may doubt whether euer he wrote any suche or no and if hee wrote whether they be corrupted by those into whose handes they came And if you would take any aduantage of M. Bucers testimony considering y a witnesse is a publike person you should haue brought hym out of your study into the Stationers shop where he mought haue bene common to others as well as to you where by hys stile and maner of wryting as it were by hys gestures countenaunces by those things that go before and come after as it were by hys head hys feete we might the better know whether it were the true Bucer or no. For although I will not say but that thys may be Bucers doing yet it seemeth very straunge that Bucer should not only contrary to the learned wryters now but also contrary to all learned antiquity and contrary to the practise of the church whilest there was any tollerable estate alow of womens baptising Tertullian sayeth it is not permitted vnto a woman to speake in the churche nor to teache nor to baptise nor to do any worke of a man muche lesse of a mynister And in an other place although he do permit it to be done of lay men in the tyme of necessitie as it is termed yet he geueth not that lycence to the woman Epiphanius vpbraydeth Marcian that he suffred women to baptise and. in an other booke he derydeth them that they made women byshops and. in an other booke he sayth it was not graunted onto the holy mother of Christ to baptise her sonne Augustin although he were of that minde that children could not be saued without baptisme yet in the tyme of necessitie as it is called he doth not allow eyther of baptisme in priuate houses or by women but when there was daunger the women hasted to cary the children vnto the church and although he doe seeme to allow of the baptisme of a lay man in the tyme of necessitie yet there also he mentioneth not womens baptisme and further he doubteth whether the childe should be baptised agayne which was baptised by a lay man And in the fourth councel of Carthage it is simply without exception decreed y a woman ought not to baptise The authors of the Admonition obiect that necessitie of saluation is tyed to the sacramentes by thys meanes and that men are confirmed in that olde error that no man can be saued with out baptisme which in deede is true For must it not bee thought to be done of necessitie and vpon great
be done in the beginning where the reader shall not be able so well to vnderstand what is sayde of me vnlesse he haue M. D. booke before hym The cause of which diuersitie rose of that that I first purposed to set downe his answer before my reply as he dyd the admonition before hys answer But afterward considering that hys booke being already in the handes of men it would be double charges to bye it agayne and especially weighing with my selfe that through the slownes of the prynt for want of helpe the reply by that meanes should come forth later then was conuenient for although he myght commodyously bryng in the admonition being short yet the same coulde not be done in his booke swellyng in that sort which it doth I say these thinges consydered I changed my mynde and haue therfore set downe the causes which moued me so to doe because I know that those if any be which haue determyned to contynue theyr foreiudged opynions agaynst the cause whatsoeuer be alledged wyll hereupon take occasion to surmyse that I haue left out hys answere to the end that it myght the lesse appeare wherein I haue passed ouer any weyght of hys reasons where as had it not bene for these causes which I haue before aledged my earnest desire was to haue set hys answere before my reply whereof I call the Lord to wytnesse whom I know to be a sharpe iudge agaynst those which shall abuse hys holy name to any vntruth ¶ An answeare to the whole Epistle to the Church WHat causes eyther pulled you forward or thrust you backward to wryte or not to wryte and how in thys dispute wyth your selfe in the end you were resolued to write in thys sort I leaue it vnto the iudgement of the Lord who only knoweth the secretes of the heart and will in his good time vnseale them But if there be any place of coniecture the hatred of contention whych you set downe as the first and principall cause that beat you backe from wryting might well haue ben put as the last and least or rather none at all For if peace had bene so precious vnto you as you pretend you woulde not haue brought so many hard wordes bitter reproches enemylike speaches as it were stickes and coales to double and treble the heat of contention If the sharpnes of the Admonition misliked you and you thinke they outreached in some vehemency of words how could you more effectually haue cōfuted that then to haue in a quiet and milde spirite set them in the way which in your opinion had left it now in words condenming it and approuing it in your dedes I wil not say that you do not so much mislike thys sharpness as you are sory that you are preuented and are not the first in it But this I may well say vnto you whych he sayd Quid verba audiam cum facta videam what should I heare words when I see the dedes In the fourth reason wherby you were discouraged to wryte if by backbiters and vnlearned tongs viperous kinde of men not able to iudge of controuersies caryed away wyth affections and blinde zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erronious opinions you meane all those that thinke not as you do in these matters I answere for my selfe and for as many as I know of them that they are they which first desire so it be truely to heare and speak◠all good of you But if that be not through your perseuerance in the maintenaunce of the corruptions of this church which you should helpe to purge then the same are they that desire that both the euill which you haue done and that which you haue yet in your hart to doe may be knowen to the lesse discredite of the truth and sinceritie which you with such might and mayne doe striue agaynst Touching our vnlearned tongues we had rather a great deale they were vnlearned then they should be as theirs * which haue taught their tunges to speake falsly And how vnlearned so euer you would make the world beleue that we and our tunges be I hope through the goodnesse of God they shall be learned enough to defend the truthe agaynst all the learning that you shall be able to assault it with If those be the * generation of Christ which you call viperous kynde of men know you that you haue not opened your mouth against earth but you haue set it agaynst heauen for all indifferent iudgement it will easely perceiue that you are as far from the spirite of * Iohn Baptist as you are nere to hys maner of speche Which you vse whether it be affection or blind zeale that we follow and are driuen by it will then appeare when the reasons of both sides being layde out shall be wayed indifferently Whereas you say that your duetie towards God and the Queene her maiesty moued you to take thys laboure in hande it will fall out vppon the discourse that as you haue not serued the Lord God in thys enterprise and worke of youres so haue you done nothing lesse then any godly duetie which you owe vnto her Maiestie so that the best that can be thought of you herein is that wherein an euill matter you coulde yelde no duetie yet now you haue done that which you thought a duetie which iudgeinent we will so long keepe of you vntill you shall by oppugning of a knowen truth declare the contrary which we hope will not be What truth it is that we impugne and you defend let it in the name of God appeare by our seuerall proufes and answeares of both sides And as for the slaunderous surmises whereby in your third and last consideration you set the Papistes of the one side of vs and the Anabaptistes of the other and vs in the middest reaching out our handes as it were to them both first it ought not to be strange vnto vs miserable sinners seeing that the Lord hym selfe without all sinne was placed in the middest of two greuous malefactors as though he had bene worse then they both Then for answere of those slaunderous speaches I will referre the Reader to those places where these generall charges are geuen out in more particular manner An answere to that which is called a briefe examination of the reasons vsed in the Admonition to the Parliament IF the scriptures had bene applyed to the mayntenaunce of the abhomination of the masse and some other of the grossest of antichristianitie you could haue sayd no more nor vsed vehementer speache then thys that they are most vntollerably abused and vnlearnedly applyed And then where is charitie which couereth the multitude of faultes especially in brethren when you do not only not couer them but also take away their garmentes whereby they are couered I will not deny but that there be some few places quoted whych might haue bene spared but there are a great number which M. Doctor tosseth throweth away
things Dauid was a lawfull and godly magistrate and yet there slipt from him commaundementes whych were neither lawfull nor godly But he addeth that it is done for order and for decencie wythout superstition or suspition of it This is that whych is in controuersy and oughte to be proued and M. Doctor still taketh it as graunted and still faulteth in the petition of the principle wherwith he chargeth others The second reason is that they that weare thys apparell haue edified and do edify whych is as if a man would say the midwiues whych lied vnto Pharao did much good amongst the Israelites Ergo their lying did much good If he will say the comparison is not like because the one is not sinne in hys owne nature whereas the other is sinne then take thys One that stammereth and stutteth in his toÌ„g edifieth the people therfore stammering and stutting is good to edifie For what if the Lorde geue hys blessing vnto hys worde and to other good giftes whych he hath that preacheth and weareth a surplice c. Is it to be thought therfore that he liketh well of the wearing of that apparell This is to assigne the cause of a thing to that whych is not only not the cause thereof but some hinderance also and sâ—aking of that wherof it is supposed to be a cause For a man may rather reason that for as much as they which preache with surplice c. edify notwithstaÌ„ding that they therby driue away some and to other some giue â—â—spition of euill c. if they preached wythout wearing any suche thyng they should edify much more And yet if a man were assured to gaine a thousande by doing of that which may offend or cause to fall one brother he ought not to do it The third reason is that they which consent in wearing the surplices consent also in all other poynts of doctrine and they that do not weare it do not consent not so much as amongst them selues If this consent in the poynts of religion be in the surplice cope c. tel vs I beseche you whether in the matter or in y form or in what hid and vnknowne quality staÌ„deth it if it be in that the ministers vse all one apparell then it is maruell that this being so strong a bond to holde them togither in godly vnitie that it was neuer commauÌ„ded of Christ nor practised of prophets or apostles neuer of no other reformed churches I had thought wholy that those things which the lord appoynteth to maintaine kepe vnitie with especially the holy sacrameÌ„ts of baptisme of the lords supper had ben strong enough to haue first of all knit vs vnto the lord therfore also to his doctrine then one of vs to an other that the dissenting in such a ceremony as a surplice c. neither should nor could in those that pertaine vnto God breake the vnitie of the spirit whych is bouÌ„d wyth the bond of truth And although there be whych like not this apparell that thinke otherwise then either their brethren or then in dede they ought to do yet a man may finde greater dissent amongst those whych are vnited in surplice cope c. then there is amongst those which weare them not either with them selues or with them that weare them For how many there are that weare surplices which would be gladder to say a masse than to heare a sermon let all the world iudge And of those y do weare this apparel be otherwise wel minded to the gospel are ther not which wil wear the surplis not the cap other the wil weare both cap surplice but not the tippet yet a third sort the wil weare surplice cap tippet but not the cope It hath ben the maner alwayes of wise learned men to esteme of things by the causes not by the euent that especially in matters of religion for if they shuld be estemed of the euent who is there which wil not condemne the Israelites battell against Aye afterward against the Beniamites which notwithstanding the cause which was Gods wist and Gods commaundement iustifieth And therfore in a worde I answere the if there be such consent amongst those which like wel of this apparell and such iarres amongst those that like it not as M. doctor wold make the world beleue neither is the wearing of the surplice c. cause of the consent in them nor the not wearing cause of the disagrement in the other But as our knowledge loue is vnperfect here in this world so is our agrement consent of iudgemeÌ„t vnperfect And yet all these harde speaches of yours or vncharitable suspitions of papisme anabaptisme catharisine donatisme c. wherby you do as much as lieth in you to cut vs cleane of from you shal not be able so to estrange vs or seperate vs from you but that we wil by gods grace hold what so euer you hold well kepe that vnitie of spirit which is the bond of truth eueÌ„ with you M. doctor whom we suppose as appeareth by this your boke to haue set your selfe further from vs then numbers of those which although they be content to receiue the apparel beare with things yet wold haue ben loth to haue set downe the against the sinceritie of the gospel hinderance of reformation which you haue done The white apparell which is a note true representation of the glory purenes in the angels shuld be a lying signe preteÌ„ce of that which is not in the ministers which are miserable sinful men And our sauior Christ which was the minister of God pure from sin therfore metest to weare the marke of purenes vsed no such kinde of weede sauing only for the smal time wherin he wold geue to his disciples in the mount a tast of that glory which he shuld enioy for euer they with him where for the time his apparel appeared as white as snow And if it be mete that the ministers shuld represent the angels in their apparel it is much more mete that they shuld haue a paire of wings as the angels are described to haue to put them in remeÌ„brance of their readines quicknes to execute their office which may and ought to be in them then to weare white apparell whych is a token of purenes from sinne and infection and of a glorye whych neither they haue nor can haue nor ought so much as to desire to haue as long as they be in thys world And whereas the maintainers of this apparell haue for their greatest defence that it is a thyng meere ciuill to let passe that they confounde Ecclesiasticall orders wyth ciuill whych they can no more iustly do then to confounde the church wyth the common wealth I say to let that pas they do by thys meanes not only make it an Ecclesiastical ceremonie but also a matter of
must depose that the name of an archbyshop is not antychristian of whome as of Clement that went before and Anicetus which followeth after the common prouerbe may be verifyed Aske my fellow if I be a theefe And although the answerer be ashamed of hym and sayth therefore he will omit him yet euen very neede dryueth hym to bring hym in and to make hym speake the vttermost hee can And thys honest man sayth that Iames was the first archbyshop of Ierusalem But Eusebius sayth Iames was byshop not archbyshop of Ierusalem and appoynted by the apostles And in an other place he sayth that the apostles dyd appoynt after hys death Simeon the sonne of Cleophas byshop of Ierusalem And Ireneus sayeth that the apostles in all places appoynted byshops vnto the churches whereby it may appeare what an idle dreame it is of Clement Volusianus and Anacletus eyther that Peter dyd thys by his owne authoritie or that the primitiue churche was euer staynes wyth these ambytious tytles of patriarche prymate metropolytane or archbyshoppe when as the storyes make mention that thoroughe out euery churche not chery prouince not by Peter or Paule but by apostles a byshop not an archbyshop was appoynted And heere you put me in remembraunce of an other argument agaynst the archbyshop which I will frame after thys sorte If there shoulde be any archbyshop many place the same shoulde be eyther in respect of the persone or minister and hys excellencie or in respecte of the magnificence of the place but the most excellent mynisters that euer were in the most famous places were no archbyshops but byshops only therefore there is no cause why there shoulde be any archbyshop For if there were euer mynister of a congregation worthy that was Iames if there were euer any citte that ought to haue thys honor as that the mynister of it should haue a more honorable title then the mynisters of other cities and townes that was Ierusalem where the sonne of God preached and from whence the gospell issued out vnto all places And afterwarde that Ierusalem decayed and the church there Antioche was a place where the notablest men were that euer haue bene since which also deserued great honoure for that there the * disciples were first called christians but neyther was that called the first and cheefest church neyther the mynisters of it called the Arche or principal byshoppes And Eusebius to declare that thys order was firme and durable sheweth that S. Iohn the Apostle which ouer lyued the residue of the Apostles ordayned byshops in euery church These two Anacletus and Anicetus you say are suspected why do you say suspected when as they haue bene conuinced and condemned and stande vppon the pillery with the cause of forgerie written in great letters that he which runneth may reade Some of the papistes them selues haue suspected them but those which mayntayne the truth haue condemned them as full of popery full of blasphemy and as those in whome was the very spirit of contradiction to the Apostles and their doctryne And do you marke what you say when you say that these are but suspected Thus much you say that it is suspected or in doubt whether the whole body of poperie and antichristianitie were in the Apostles time or sone after or no for Clement was in the Apostles time and their scholer and so you leaue it in dout whether the apostles appoynted and were the authors of popery or no. I thinke if euer you had red the Epistles you woulde neuer haue cited their authorities nor haue spoken so fauourably of them as you doe You come after to the councel of Nice wherin I wil not sticke with you that you say it was holden the CCC xxx yeare of the Lorde when as it maye appeare by Eusebius hys Computation that it was holden Anno Domini CCC xx and heere you take so greate a leape that it is enoughe to breake the archbishoppes necke to skippe at once CCC yeares that is from the tyme of the apostles vntill the time of the councell of Nice wythout any testimony of any either father or storie of faithe and credite whych maketh once mention of an archbishop What no mention of hym in Theophilus byshop of Antioche none in Ignatius none in Clemens Alexandrinus none in Iustin Martyr in Ireneus in Tertullian in Origine in Cyprian none in all those olde Historiographers out of the whych Eusebius gathereth hys story Was it for his basenes and smalnes that he could not be seene amongst the byshops elders and deacons being the cheefe and principall of them all can the Ceder of Lebanon be hid amongst the boxe trees Aristotle in his Rhethorike ad Theodecten sayeth that it is a token of contempt to forget the name of an other belike therefore if there were any archbishop he had no chaire in the church but was as it semeth digging at the metalles For otherwise they that haue filled their bookes wyth the often mentioning of bishops would haue no doubt remembred him But let vs heare what the councell of Nice hath for these titles In the. 6. canon mention is made of a metropolitane bishop what is that to the metropolitane whych is now either to the name or to the office of the office it shal appeare afterwards In the name I thinke there is a great differēce betwene a metropolitane bishop metropolitane of England or of al England A Metropolitane bishop was nothing els but a bishop of that place which it pleased the Emperor or magistrate to make the chefe citie of the diocese or shire and as for thys name it maketh no more difference betwene bishop and bishop then when I say a minister of London and a minister of Nuington There is no man that is well aduised whych will gather of thys saying that there is as great difference in preheminence betweene those two ministers as is betweene London and Nuington for his office and preheminence we shall see hereafter There are alledged to proue the names of archbyshops patriarkes archdeacons the. 13. 25. 26. and. 27. Canons of the councel of Nece For the. 25. 26. 27. there are no such canons of that councell and although there be a thirtenthe canon there is no worde of patriarke or archdeacon there contained And I maruell wyth what shame you can thruste vppon vs these counterfaite canons whych come out of the popes minte yea and whych are not to be found Theodoret sayeth that there are but twentie Canons of the councell of Neece and those twentie are in the tome of the councels and in those there is no mention of any patriarke archdeacon archbishop Ruffine also remembreth 22. Canons very little differing from those other twenty but in lengthe and in none of those are found any of these names of archbishop archdeacon patriarke And it is as lawfull for M. Harding to alledge the. 44. canon of the coūcell of Nece to proue the supremacie
shal haue one in euery congregation For Iustin declareth there the Leyturgie or maner of seruing God that was in euery church vsed of the Christians And I pray you let it be considered what is the office of that proestos and see whether there be any resemblance in the world betwene hym and an archbyshop For he placeth hys office to be in preaching in conceiuing prayers in mynistring of the sacramentes Of any commaundement which he had ouer the rest of the mynisters or of any such priuiledges as the archbyshop hath he maketh not one worde It may be that the same myght haue the preheminence of calling the rest together and propounding the matter to the rest of the company and such lyke as is before declared As soone as euer you found proestos you snatched that by and by and went your wayes and so deceyue your selfe and others But if you had red the whole treatise you should haue founde that he was proestos of the people for thus it is written in the same Apologie Epeita prospheretai to Proestoti ton adelphon artos Afterwarde bread is brought to the president of the brethren calling the people as S. Paule doth continually brethren And therefore these are M. Doctors argumentes oute of Martyrs place There was a mynister which dyd stande before or was president of the rest in euery particulare church and congregation therefore there was an archbyshoppe ouer all the prouince And agayne there was one which ruled the people in euery congregation therfore there was one that ruled all the mynisters through out the whole prouince And albeit things were in great puritie in the dayes that Iustin liued in respect of the tymes which followed yet as there was in other things which appeare in hys workes and euen in the ministration of the sacramentes spoken of in that place corruption in that they mingled water and wine together so euen in the ministerie there began to peepe out some thing which went from the simplicitie of the gospel as that the name of proestos which was common to the elders with the ministers of the word was as it seemeth appropriated vnto one Another of M. Doctors reasons for to proue the archbyshop is that Cyrill maketh mention of an high priest wherunto I answere that he that bringeth in a priest into the church goeth about to bury our sauiour Christ for although it myght be proued that the worde priest were the same with the Greekes presbyteros yet as shall appeare in hys place is the vse of thys word priest for a mynister of the gospell very daungerous And as for hym that bringeth in an high priest into the church hee goeth about to put our sauiour Christ out of hys office who is proued in the Epistle to the Hebrues to be the only high priest and that there can be no more as long as the worlde endureth And yet if all thys were graunted you are not yet come to that which you desire to proue that is an archbyshoppe For if you looke in Theodorete you shall fynde thys woorde archierosyne which signifyeth the highe priesthoode to be nothing else but a byshoppricke and in the. 7. chapter of that booke and so forth dyuers tymes you shall haue archiereus taken for a byshop as speaking of the councel of Nice he sayth that there was 318. archiereis highe priestes Now I thincke you wil not say there were 318. archbyshops If you do you are confuted by all ecclesiasticall wryters that euer I red which speaking of them call them byshops Chrysostome followeth which as M. Doctor sayth ruled not only the church of Constantinople but the churches of Thracia Asia and Pontus he sayth it out of Theodorete But heerin it may appeare that eyther M. Doctor hath a very euill conscience in falsifying wryters that in the poyntes which he in controuersie or else he hath taken hys stuffe of certayne at the seconde hand without any examination of it at all For heere he hath set downe in stead of had care of the churches in Thracia c. ruled the churches the Greke is epoieito ten promethcian it is translated also prospexit so that it appeareth he fetched it neyther from Theodorite in Greeke nor in Latine And what is thys to proue an archbyshoppe that he had care of these churches there is no minister but ought to haue care ouer all the churches through christendome and to shew that care for them in comforting or admonishing of them by wryting or by visiting them if the necessitie so require and it be thought good by the churches and leaue obtayned of the place where he is mynister vppon some notable and especiall cause being some man of singular giftes whose learning and credite may profite much to the bringing to passe of that thing for the which he is to be sent After thys sort * S. Cyprian being in Affricke had care ouer Rome in Europe and wrote vnto the church there After thys sort also was * Ireneus byshoppe of Lions sent by the French churches vnto the churches in Phrigia And after thys sort haue M. Caluin and M. Beza bene sent from Geneua in Sauoy to the churches of Fraunce Now if you will conclude heereupon that Cyprian ruled the churche of Rome or Ireneus the churches of Phrigia or maister Caluin or M. Beza the churches of Fraunce or that they were byshops or archbyshops of those places you shall but conclude as you were wont to doe but yet all men vnderstand that heere is nothing lesse then an archbyshop or any such byshoppe as we haue and vse in our church And if so be that Chrysostome should be byshop or archbyshop of al these churches which were in al Asia Pontus Thracia as you wold geue the reader to vnderstand you make hym byshop of more churches then euer the Pope of Rome was when he was in hys greatest pryde and hys Empire largest For there were sixe presidentships in Thracia and in Asia there were a eleuen Princes and had seuerall regions or gouernmentes and in Pontus as many and if he were byshop or archbyshop of all the churches within these dominions he had neede of a long spone to feede with all It is certayne therefore that he was byshop only of the church in Constantinople and had an eye a care to those other churches And that he was byshop of one citie or of one church it may appeare by that which I haue before alleaged oute of the Greeke Scholiaste vpon Titus who citeth there Chrysostome where it is sayd that S. Paule dyd not meane to make one ouer the whole I le but that euery one should haue hys proper congregation c. * And in an other place he sheweth the difference betweene the Emperour and the byshop that the one is ouer the world and the other that is the byshop is ouer one citie Touching Theodorete byshop of Cyrus to let pas that which the bishops of
God as also as S. Paule teacheth a declaration and profession that wee are at one with oure brethren so that it is fyrst a sacrament of the knitting of all the body generally and of euery member particularly with the heade and then of the members of the body one with an other Now therefore seeing that euery particular church and body of Gods people is a representation and as it were a liuely portraiture of the whole church and body of Christ it followeth that that which we can not doe with all the church scattered throughout the whole world for the distances of places whereby we are seuered we ought to doe with that church whereunto God hath raunged vs as much as possibly or conueniently may be The departing therefore of the rest of the church from those three or fower is an open profession that they haue no communion fellowshippe nor vnitie with them that doe communicate and lykewise of those three or foure that they haue none with the rest that ioyne not them selues thereunto when as both by the many grapes making one cuppe and cornes making one loafe that whole church being many parsons are called as to the vnitie which they haue one with an other and altogether amongst them selues so to the declaration and profession of it by receiuing one with an other and altogether amongst them selues And as if so be that we do not celebrate as we may possibly and conueniently the supper of the Lord we thereby vtter our want of loue towardes the Lord which hath redeemed vs so if we doe not communicate together with the churche so farre forth as we may do conueniently we betray the want of our loue that we haue one towardes an other And therefore S. Paul dryuing heereunto willeth that one shoulde tary for an other reprehending that when one preuenteth and commeth before an other saying that that is to take euery man hys owne supper and not to celebrate the Lords supper Not that so many men or women as there came so many tables were for that had not bene possible in so great assemblyes but that they sorted them selues into certayne companyes and that they came scattering one after an other and that in stead of making one supper of the Lord they dyd make dyuers These things being considered the reason which the Admonition vseth in the 185. page where thys matter is spoken of which is drinke you all of thys is not so rydiculous as M. Doctor maketh it For although that it doe neyther proue that 12. or 20. or any other definite number must of necessitie receyue yet it proueth that as all they which were present dyd communicate And so as many as in the church are fit to receiue the sacraments or may conueniently receiue them together shoulde follow that example in celebrating the supper together And it is probably to be thought that if our sauiour Christ had not bene restrayned by the law of God touching the passeouer vnto hys owne family and to as many onely as would serue to eate vppe a Lambe by them selues that he would haue celebrated hys supper amongst other of hys disciples and professoures of hys doctryne But for so muche as it was meete that hee shoulde celebrate hys supper there and then where and when hee dyd celebrate hys passeouer for the cause before by me alleaged it pleased hym to keepe hys first supper with the fewer for that the law of communication vnto the passeouer which was ioyned wyth the supper woulde not admit any greater number of communicants then was sufficient to eate vp the passeouer And althoughe it be cleare and playne that when it is sayde drincke ye all of thys and tary one for an other these sayinges are ment of that particulare congregation or assembly which assemble themselues together to be taught by one mouth of the mynister yet I haue therefore put thys caution as muche as may be possyble least any man shoulde cauill as though I would haue no communion vntill all the godly through the world should meete together Likewise I haue put thys caution as much as may be conueniently for although it be possible that a perticulare church may communicate at one table in one day and together yet maye the same be inconuenient for dyuers causes As if the number should be very great so that to haue them all communicate together it would require suche a long tyme as the tarying out of the whole action would hazarde eyther the lyfe or at least the health of dyuers there Agayne for as much as other some being at the churche it is meete that other should be at home vppon occasyon of infantes and suche lyke thinges as require the presence of some to tary at home In these cases and suche lyke the inconueniences doe delyuer vs from the gilte of vncharitablenes and forsaking the fellowship of the church for that wee doe not heere seuere oure selues but are by good and iust causes seuered which gilte wee shall neuer escape if beside suche necessarye causes wee pretende those that are not or hauing not so muche as a pretence yet notwythstanding seperate our selues as the dayly practise thorough out the church doth shew But it may be obiected that in thys poynt the booke of Common prayer is not in fault which doth not only not forbid that all the church should receiue together but also by a good godly exhortation moueth those that be present that they should not departe but communicate altogether It is true that it doth not forbid and that there is godly exhortation for that purpose but that I say is not enough for neither should it suffer that three or foure should haue a communion by them selues so many being in the church meete to receiue and to whom the supper of the Lord doth of right appertaine it ought to prouide that those whych woulde wythdrawe them selues shoulde be by Ecclesiasticall discipline at all times and now also vnder a godly Prince by ciuill punishment brought to communicate wyth their brethren And thys is the law of God and thys is now and hath bene heeretofore the practise of churches reformed All men vnderstand that the passeouer was a figure of the Lords supper and that there should be as straight bonds to binde men to celebrate the remembrance of our spirituall deliuerance as there was to remember the deliuerance out of Egipt But whosoeuer did not then communicate with the rest at that time when the passeouer was eaten was excommunicated as it may appeare in the boke of Numbers where he sayeth that whosoeuer did not communicate being cleane his soule should be cut off from amongst the people of god Therfore thys neglect or contempt rather of the Lordes supper ought to be punished wyth no les punishment especially when as after the church hath proceeded in that order whych our sauior Christ appoynteth of admonishing they be not sory for their fault and promise
So M. Doctor wryte he careth not what he write Belike he thinketh the credite of hys degree of Doctorshyp will geue waight to that which is light and pithe to that which is froth or else he would neuer answere thus For then I will if thys be a good reason say that for so much as S. Luke doth not in that place describe the office of the pastor or byshoppe which preacheth the woorde therefore that place proueth not that in euery congregation there should be a byshop or a pastor Besides that M. Doctor taketh vp the authors of the Admonition for reasoning negatiuely of the testimony of all the scriptures and yet hee reasoneth negatiuely of one only sentence in the scripture For he would conclude that for so much as there is no duetie of a senyor described in that place therefore there is no duety at all and consequently no senyor Afterwardes he sayeth that for so much as thys place hath bene vsed to proue a pastor or byshop in euery church therfore it can not be vsed to proue these elders so that sayeth he there must needes be eyther a contradiction or else a falsification The place is rightly alledged for both the one and the other and yet neyther contradiction to them selues nor falsification of the place but only a must before M. Doctors eyes which will not let hym see a playne and euident truth which is that the word elder is generall and comprehendeth both those elders which teach and gouerne and those which gouerne only as hath bene shewed out of S. Paule And whereas M. Doctor sayeth that the place of the Corinthes may bee vnderstanded of cyuill magistrates of preaching mynisters of gouernoures of the whole churche and not of euery particulare churche and fynally any thing rather then that wherof it is in deede vnderstanded I say first that he styll stumbleth at one stone which is that he can not put a difference betwene the church and common wealth and so betwene the church officers which he there speaketh of and the officers of the common wealth those which are ecclesiasticall and those which are cyuill Then that he meaneth not the mynister which proacheth it may appeare for that he had noted them before in the worde teachers and last of all he can not meane gouernoure of the whole church onles he shoulde meane a Pope and if he will say he meaneth an Archbyshop which gouerneth a whole prouince besides that it is a bolde speach without all warrant I haue shewed before that the word of God alloweth of no such office and therefore it remayneth that it must be vnderstanded of thys office of Elders The same answere may be made vnto that which he sayeth of the place to the Romaines where speaking of the offyces of the church after that hee had set forth the office of the pastor and of the doctor he addeth those other two offices of the Churche whereof one was occupyed in the gouernement only the other in prouyding for the poore and helping the sicke And if besides the manifest words of the Apostle in both these places I shoulde adde the sentences of the wryters vpon those places as M. Caluin M. Beza M. Martyr M. Bucer c. It should easely appeare what iust cause M. Doctor hath to say that it is to daily with the scriptures and to make them a nose of waxe in alledging of these to proue the elders that all men might vnderstand what terrible outcryes he maketh as in thys place so almost in all other when there is cause that he shoulde lay hys hand vpon hys mouth Thys I am compelled to wryte not so much to proue that there were senyors in euery church which is a thing confessed as to redeame those places from M. Doctors false and corrupt interpretations And as for the proufe of elders in euery congregation besydes hys confession I neede haue no more but hys owne reason For he sayeth that the office of these elders in euery church was in that tyme wherein there were no christian magistrates and when there was persecution but in the Apostles tymes there was both persecution and no christian magistrates therefore in theyr tyme the office of these elders was in euery congregation I come therefore to the second poynt wherein the question especially lyeth which is whether thys function be perpetuall and ought to remayne alwayes in the churche And it is to be obserued by the way that where as there are dyuers sortes of aduersaryes to thys disciplyne of the church Maister Doctor is amongst the worst For there be that saye that thys order may be vsed or not vsed now at the lybertie of the churches But M. Doctor sayeth that thys order is not for these tymes but only for those tymes when there were no christian magistrates and so doth flatly pinch at those churches which hauing christian magistrates yet notwithstanding retayne thys order still And to the ende that the vanitie of thys distinction which is that there oughte to bee senyors or auncientes in the tymes of persecution and not of peace vnder tyrantes and not vnder christian magistrates may appeare the cause why these senyors or auncientes were appoynted in the church is to bee consydered which must needes be graunted to bee for that the pastor not being able to ouersee all hym selfe and to haue hys eyes in euery corner of the church and places where the churches aboade might be helped of the auncientes Wherin the wonderfull loue of God towards hys church doth manifestly appeare that for the greater assurance of the saluation of hys dyd not content hym selfe to appoynt one only ouerseer of euery church but many ouer euery church And therefore seeing that the pastor is now in the tyme of peace and vnder a christian magistrate not able to ouersee all hym selfe nor hys eyes can not bee in euery place of the paryshe present to beholde the behauiour of the people it followeth that as well now as in the tyme of persecution as well vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant the office of an auncient or seignior is required Onles you will say that God hath lesse care of hys church in the time of peace and vnder a godly magistrate then he hath in the tyme of persecution and vnder a tyrant In deede if so bee the auncientes in the tyme of persecution and vnder a tyrant had medled with any office of a magistrate or had supplyed the roume of a godly magistrate in handling of any of those things which belonged vnto hym then there had bene some cause why a godly magistrate being in the church the office of the senior or at least so much as he exercised of the office of a magistrate shuld haue ceased But when as the auncient neither dyd nor by any meanes might meddle with those things which belonged vnto a magistrate no more vnder a tyrant thē vnder a godly magistrate there is no reason why
not worth the noting The Apostles dyd beare with the infirmitie of the Iewes addicted to the obseruation of the ceremoniall law yet they neuer alowed that infirmitie and they were so farre from approuing it by subscribing that they wrote agaynst it Those sayth M. D. which authorized thys booke were studious of peace and of building of Christes church therefore they that speake agaynst it which hee calleth defacing are disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the church So I will reason Gedeon was studious of peace and of building of the churche therefore they whiche spake agaynst the Ephod which he made were disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the church We speake agaynst images in churches and consubstantiation in the sacramentes and such lyke which Luther being studious of peace and of the building of the church dyd holde and yet we are not therfore disturbers of peace or destroyers of the church Although they were excellent personnages yet their knowledge was in part although they brought many things to our light yet they being sent out in the morning or euer the sunne of the gospell was rysen so hygh might ouersee many things which those that are not so sharpe of fight as they were may see for because that which they want in the sharpnes of sight they haue by the benefite and clearenesse of the sun and of the light They sealed not the booke of seruice with their bloud as M. Doctor sayeth for some that suffred for the truth declared openly theyr myslyking of certayne thinges in it and as for the other they coulde neuer dye for that booke more then for the lyturgie vsed in the Frenche churche or at Geneua For they receiued not the sentence of condemnation because they approued that booke but because they improued the articles drawne out of the masse booke And if they had dyed for that booke as in deede they dyed for the booke of God yet the authoritie of theyr martyrdome coulde not take away from vs thys lyberty that we haue to enquire of the cause of theyr death Iustin and Cyprian were godly martyrs yet a man may not say that they sealed their errors which they wrote with theyr bloud or with thys glory of their martyrdome preiudice those which speake or wryte agaynst their erroures for thys is to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of god For the papistes triumph I haue answeared before and I will not striue about the Goates wolle who is the opponent who the respondent in thys difference From the. 151. page vnto the. 171. page all is answeared where these things which are heere ioyned are seuerally handled now vnto that in the. 171. and. 172. pages I answere the although it be meete that as we hope that the homylies which are made already be godly so those that shall be made hereafter shall be lykewise yet considering the mutabilitie of men and that oftentymes to the worse it is not meete nay it is merely vnlawfull to subscribe to a blancke seeing that wee can not witnesse or allow of those things which we haue not sene nor heard The place vnto the Corinthes is the same vnto the Romanes and M. Doctor approuing one hath no cause to fynde fault with the other For the homylies first of all I haue shewed how absurde a saying and how vnlyke a dyuine it is to match reading of homylies with preaching of sermons For if the reading of the holy scriptures is nothing so fruitefull as the preaching of them muche lesse is the reading of homylies to be for their frute matched with preaching of sermons There remayneth that I shew briefely that neyther the homylies nor the Apochripha are at all to be red in the churche Wherein first it is good to consider the order which the Lorde kept with hys people in tymes past when he commaunded that no vessell nor no instrument eyther beesome or flesh hooke or pan c. shuld come into the temple but those only which were sanctifyed sette apart for that vse And in the booke of Numbers he will haue no other trumpets blowne to cal the people together but those only which were set apart for y purpose What should the meaning of thys law be The matter of other common vessels trumpets was the same oftentimes which theirs was the same forme also the other beesomes and hookes and trumpets hable to serue for the vses of sweeping and sounding c. as well as those of the temple and as those which were set aparte wherfore mought not these then as well be vsed in the temple as others Forsothe because the Lord would by these rudiments and pedagogie teache that he would haue nothing brought into the church but that which he had appoynted no not althoughe they seemed in the iudgement of men as good as those things which God him selfe had placed there Which thing is much more to be obserued in this matter seeing that the homilies red be they neuer so learned and pithye neyther the Apochrypha are to be compared either in goodnes within thēselues eyther in frute or in effect towardes the hearer wyth the authenticall scriptures of god Now if a man will say that the Homilies do explane lay open the scriptures I answer that the word of God also is plain and easy to be vnderstanded and such as giueth vnderstanding to idiotes to the simple And if there be hardnes in them yet the promise of the assistance of Gods spirite that God hath giuen to the reading of the scriptures in the church whych he hath not giuen to homilies or to the Apochrypha will be able to weigh wyth the hardnes and to ouercome it so that there shall easely appeare greater profit to come vnto the church by reading of the scriptures then by reading of homilies Besides thys the pollicy of the church of God in times past is to be folowed herein that for the expounding of darker places places of more easines ought to be ioyned together as in the persecutiō of Antiochus wher they could not haue the commodity of preaching the Iewes dyd appoynt at their meetings alwayes a peece of the law to be red with all a peece of the prophets whych expounded y peece of the lawe rather then to bring in interpretations of men to be red And because I am entred into that matter heere cometh to be considered the practise also of the church both before our sauior Christes comming and after that when the churches met together there is nothing mentioned but the reading of the scriptures for so is the Lyturgie described in the Actes And it is not to be thought but that they had those whych made expositiōs of the law and the prophets And besydes that they had Onkelos the Calday paraphrast bothe Galatine Rabby Moses surnamed Maymon write that Ionathan an nother of the Calday paraphrasts floryshed in oure sauyor Christes tyme whose
But it is true that he that is once ouer the shoes sticketh not to run ouer hys bootes And last of all to proue that byshoppes may haue prisons hee citeth Peter which punyshed Ananias and Saphira with death M. Doctor must vnderstand that thys was Ecclesiasticall power and was done by vertue of that function which S. Paule calleth dynamin which is one of those functions that the Lord placed in hys church for a tyme But is thys a good argument because S. Peter punished with the word therefore the mynister may punyshe with the sworde And because S. Peter dyd so once therefore the byshop may doe so alway because S. Peter dyd that which appertayneth to no ciuill magistrate and which no ciuill magistrate by any meanes may or can doe therefore the mynister may doe that which appertayneth vnto the ciuill magistrate For if there had bene a ciuill magistrate the same could not haue punyshed thys fault of dissimulation which was not knowen nor declared it selfe by any outwarde action So that if thys example proue any thing it proueth that the mynister may doe that no man may doe but the Lord only which is to punysh faultes that are hyd and vnknowne If thys be ignoraunce it is very grosse if it be agaynst knowledge it is more daungerous I haue determyned with my selfe to leaue vnto M. Doctor hys outcries and declamations and if I should haue vsed them as often as he geueth occasion there would be no end of wryting The Lord geue M. Doctor eyther better knowledge or better conscience Vnto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that pope Eugenius brought in prysons into the church as also vnto three or foure such like demaunds which hee maketh in thys booke the authors of the Admonition answeare at once that thys and the other are sounde in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Heere I will take in that whych the byshop of Salesbury hath in the last page of hys halfe sheete touching thys matter And first of all I wel agree that he sayth that to geue vnto sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an Ecclesiasticall person by reprehensyon or putting hym out of the ministerye if the case so require is meere ecclesiasticall and not ciuill and that those thyngs ought to be done of the offycers of the church Thys only I deny that the ministers ought to meddle wyth ciuill offyces For proofe whereof the B. alledgeth the example of Augustine whych as Possidonius wryteth was troubled wyth the hearing determinyng of causes Wherin Possidonius sayeth nothyng but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister wyth the elders ought bothe to heare and determine of causes but of suche causes as pertaine vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidonius ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustin as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that whych he wryteth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certen in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accompted of thys as of compulsyon and restraint from hys better busynesses whereby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not wyth those worldly affaires further then by waye of giuing counsell whych is not vnlawful for a minister to do as one friend vnto an other so that hys mynisterye be not thereby hindered And for the truthe of thys matter that ministers ought not to meddle wyth ciuill affaires I will appeale to no other then to the byshop hym selfe who dothe affirme plainly the same that the admonition heere affirmeth And therfore I conclude that for so much as bothe the holy scriptures doe teache that ministers oughte not to meddle wyth ciuill offyces and reason and the practise of the church doe confirme it that they ought to kepe thēselues within the limites of the ministerye and Ecclesiasticall functions least whilest they breake forthe into the calling of a magistrate in steade of shewing themselues episcopous that is ouerseers they be found to declare themselues * allotriopiscopous that is busy bodyes medling in thyngs whych belong not vnto them And thus putting them in remembrance of that whych they knowe well enoughe that they ought cosman sparten hen elachon that is to say studye to adorne that charge whych they take in hande and doe professe I leaue to speake any further of thys matter Vnto the two next sections I haue spoken in that whych hathe bene sayde touchyng excommunication canons and prebendaries c. and vnto that whych is contained in the. 226. and. 227. I answere that I can not excuse couetous patrones of benefices but couetous parsons and vicars be a great plague vnto this church and one of the principall causes of rude and ignorant people Lykewise vnto the two next sectiōs I haue answeared before in speaking against the spirituall courts whych are now vsed and vnto the next after that in speaking of the ordayning of ministers And vnto that whych is contained in the later ende of the. 234. and the beginning of the. 235. I say that the church shall iudge of the aptnes or vnaptnes of our reasons and albeit we do finde fault with diuers thyngs in the booke yet we neyther oppugne as enemyes nor are by the grace of God eyther Papists Anabaptists Atheists or Puretanes as it pleaseth M. Doctor to call vs And to the prayer agaynst disturbers of the churche I say wyth all my heart Amen Vnto the next section I haue answeared in the treatise of the apparell And vnto the next after in the treatise whych declareth to whome it doth appertaine to make ceremonyes and orders of the church And vnto the section contained in the. 243. page I say that M. Doctor being asked of Oynions answeareth of garlike For the authors of the admonition desyring that it myght be as lawful for them to publishe by Printe their mindes or to be heard dispute or that theyr minde put in wryting myghte be openly debated maister D. answeareth wyth Augustines sentence whych he hath made the foote of hys song nothing to the purpose of that whych they said the performance of which promise we wil notwythstanding wayte for Vnto the section contayned in the. 245. and. 246. pages HEre maister Doctor contrary to the protestation of the authors of the Admonition whych declare that for the abuses and corruptions they dare not simply subscribe sayth that therfore they will not subscribe because they are required by lawfull authoritye Whych howe bothe presumptuous and vncharitable a iudgement it is let all men iudge especially vpon this matter whych hath bene declared And where maister Doctor wold vpon the marginall note proue that we haue good discipline because we haue good doctrine and thervpon doth wonderfully tryumphe he playeth as he of whome it is sayde meden labon cratei carteros that is hauyng gotten nothyng holdeth it fast For can M. doctor be so ignorant that thys manner of speach doctrine and discipline