Archbishop dyd with their factiousnesse trouble the Church Whiche words I added to declare how vntruely the Papistes doe abuse that place of Cyprian to proue the Popes authoritie ouer all the Churches when he onely speaketh of the authoritie of an Archbishop or Bishop in his owne prouince or dioces True it is that Cyprian doth not speake of the authoritie of the Byshop of Rome ouer all Churches but of the authoritie that Cornelius then Bishop of Rome or Cyprian himselfe had in his owne prouince neither wil any denie this but Papists Now to peruert this my plaine meaning and to father on me whether I will or no this argumente he speaketh not of the Bishop of Rome and therfore of an Archbishop argueth a mynd disposed to con and a stomacke desirous rather to deface the person than to giue care to the matter T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 9. And in the. 71. pag. * Other vntruthe ▪ There must be superiours Ergo one minister must be superiour vnto an other There must be degrees therefore there must be one Archbishop ouer a prouince Io. Whitgifte There are no such reasons those that be in that place alleaged are onely out of Hierome and Chrisostome and of greater force than wil be truely answered T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 10. And in the. 73. there was one ouer euery congregation therefore there was one ouer all the ministers Another vntruth in the prouince These and a number like vnto these M. Doctor hath scattered throughout his booke which as Nero sayd of his maister Senecas workes cleaue together like sand and thus let it be seene whose argumentes are most iustly concluded those of the Admonition or these of M. Doctors Io. Whitgifte It is a shame to lye of the deuill Where finde you in all that page any such argument or similitude of it but surely you haue done me a great pleasure who searching my booke so diligently for arguments to quit the Admonition haue not founde one but most vainely and vntruely fained those to be which be not Truly I do not think my selfe in euery circumstance to be so circumspecte but that I may minister sometime matter to a quarreller howebeit as yet you haue not founde any thing for your purpose And I shall most hartily desire the reader to iudge of the rest of your doyngs euen according to these beginnings An Exhortation to such as be in authoritie and haue the gouernment of the Church committed vnto them whether they be Ciuill or Ecclesiasticall Magistrates Io. Whitgifte COnsidering the strangenesse of the time the varietie of mens mindes and the maruellous inclinations in the common sort of persons especially where the Gospel is most preached to imbrace newe inuented doctrines and opiniōs though they tende to the disturbing of the quiet state of the Church the discrediting and defacing of such as be in authoritie and the mainteining of licenciousnesse and lewde libertie I thought it good to set before your eyes the practises of the Anabaptistes their conditions and qualities the kinde and manner of their beginnings and proceedings before the broching of their manifolde and horrible heresies to the intent that you vnderstanding the same may the rather in time take heede to such as proceede in like maner least they being suffred too long brust out to worke the same effect I accuse none onely I suspect the authors of this Admonition and their fautours what cause I haue so to do I refer to your selues to iudge after that I haue set forth vnto you the Anabaptisticall practises euen as I haue learned in the writings of suche famous and learned men as had themselues experience of them when they first began in Germanie and did both personally reason with them and afterwardes very learnedly write against them neither will I in this point write one word which I haue not my author to shew for An answere to the Exhortation to the ciuill Magistrates T. C. pag. 2. Sect. 1. IT is more than I thought could haue happened vnto you once to admitte into your minde this opinion of Anabaptisme of your brethren which haue alwayes had it in as great detestation as your selfe preached against it as much as your selfe hated of the folowers and fauourers of it as much as your selfe And it is yet more strange that you haue not doubted to giue out such slaunderous reportes of them but dare to present such accusations to the holy and sacred seate of iustice and therby so much as in you lyeth to corrupt it to call for the sword vpon the innocent which Bigge wordes is giuen for their maintenance and safetie that as it is a boldnesse vntollerable so coulde I hardly haue thought that it could haue fallen into any that had caried but the countenance and name of a professor of the Gospell much lesse of a Doctor of diuinitie Before you will ioyne with vs in this cause you will place vs whether we will or no in the campe of the Anabaptistes to the ende you might therby both withdraw al frō aiding vs which are godly minded as for that you fearing as it seemeth the insufficiencie of your pen might haue the sworde to supply your want other wayes And if we be founde in their campe or be such disturbers of the quiet estate of the Church efacers of such as be in authoritie mainteyners of licenciousnes lewde libertie as you do seeme to charge vs with we refuse not to go vnder those punishments that some of that wicked sect receiued for iust recompence of their demerites You say you will not accuse any (a) A charitable iudgement and yet before he reproued the l ke I know it is for want of no good will that you do not accuse them of whose condemnation extreme punishment we might be sure if your hand were as strong as your harte But you suspect the authors of the Admonition and their fautors * Charitie is not suspitious Let vs therefore see whether there be iuste 1. Cor. 13. 5. matter to beare out and to vphold this suspition You will beare men in hand that if we be not alreadie full Anabaptists yet we are in the way thither the fotesteps wherby you trace vs must be considered Io. Whitgifte There is no cause why you should so maruaile at the matter all things well considered neither do I thinke that the Anabaptistes do so greatly detest and hate them as you woulde make vs beleue I do not accuse them of the doctrine of Anabaptisme as you your selfe in the ende of this section do acknowledge but I declare that I greatly suspect them bicause they come so neare vnto the qualities and practises of the Anabaptistes and vse the same beginnings whether this my suspition be true or no I referre it to the iudgement of others If the reportes be slaunderous let them take their lawfull remedie against me but if they be most manifest then it is conuenient that the Magistrates haue
is no néede or a more vehement purgation than is conuenient for the disease or minister it out of time or giue one purgation for an other c. what rumbling and stirre soeuer follow in the bodye he may be iustly sayde to be the author and cause of them Do you not knowe what Zuinglius sayeth in his Ecclesiast speaking of Anabaptistes If they were sente of God Zuinglius i Ecclesi st Id m de bapti mo and endued with the spirite of loue they would haue construed in the beste parte those externall things c. And againe Christe neuer made any contention for externall thinges and in his booke de Baptismo They go aboute innouations of their owne priuate authoritie c. I vse M. Caluines iudgement as I vse the iudgement of other learned men neyther will I refuse any learned mans opinion in these controuersies that truly and wholly vnderstandeth the state of this Church and the grounde of all thinges vsed in it But I doubt how you will hereafter stand to this offer ¶ The opinion of Bucer of things indifferent Chap. 5. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag 29. Sect. 5. 6. Of the same iudgement in this matter is M. Bucer as it appeareth Bucer of things indifferent in his Epistle to M. Alasco these be his wordes If you vvill not admit such libertie and vse of vesture to this pure and holie Church bycause they haue no commaundement of the Lord nor example of it I doo not see hovv you can graunt to any Church that it may celebrate the Lordes Supper in the morning and in an open Churche especially consecrated to the Lorde that the Sacrament may be distributed to men kneeling or standing yea to vvomen as vvell as to men For vvee haue receiued of these things neither commaundement of the Lorde nor any example yea rather the Lorde gaue a contrarie example For in the euening and in a priuate house he did make his Supper and distributed the Sacramentes and that to men only and sitting at the table Haec Bucerus But to ende this matter is it not as lawfull for a godlie Prince with the aduise and consent of godlie and lerned Bishops and other of the wysest to make orders in the Church and lawes Ecclesiasticall as it is for euery priuate man to vse what maner and forme of seruice he list and other order aud discipline in his own parish which these men seeke and striue to doe T. C. Page 20. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Pag. 21. Sect. 1. And as for Peter Martyr and Bucer and Musculus and Bullinger Gualter and Hemingius and the rest of the late writers by citing of whome you woulde gyue to vnderstande that they are agaynste vs in these matters there is set downe in the latter ende of this booke their seuerall iudgements of the moste of these thinges whiche are in controuersie whereby it maye appeare that if they haue spoken one woorde agaynste vs they haue You do learned mē great iniury in accusing thē of contrarietie spoken two for vs. And whereas they haue written as it is said and alieadged in their priuate letters to their friends agaynst some of these causes it may appeare that they haue in their works published to the whole world that they confirme the same causes So that if they wrote any such things they shall be found not so much to haue dissented from vs as from themselues and therefore we appeale from themselues vnto themselues and from their priuate notes and letters to their publike writings as more autenticall You laboure still in the fire that is vnprofitable to bring M. Bucer his Epistle to proue that the Church may order thinges whereof there is no particular and expressed commaundement for there is none denieth it neyther is this saying that all things are to be done in the Church according to the rule of the word of God any thing repugnant vnto this that the Church may ordeyne certayne things according to the word of God But if this Epistle and others of M. Bucers with his notes vpon the booke of common prayer which are so often cited and certaine Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were neuer printed as (1) You cannot but vnderstand that they are printed I cannot vnderstand they were then besides that you do vs iniury which go about to preiudice our cause by the testimonies of them whiche we can neyther heare nor see being kepte close in your study you also do your cause much more iniurie whilest you betray the pouertie and nakednesse of it being fame to ransacke and ruffle vp euery darke corner to find something to couer it with Therefore it were good before you tooke any benefyte of them to let them come foorthe and speake their owne testimonies in their owne language and full out For now you giue men occasion to thinke that there are some other thinges in their Epistles whiche you would be loth the world should know for feare of fall of that which you would gladly keepe There is (2) What say you than to the. 14. reason of the Admonition then ministers were not so tyed to any forme of prayers c. no man that sayth that it ought to be permitted to euery person in the Churche where he is minister to haue such order or discipline or to vse such seruice as he listeth no man seeketh for it But to haue the order which God hathe left in those things which the word precisely appoynteth and in other things to vse that which shall be according to the rules of S. Paule before recited agreed by the Church aud confirmed by the prince And wheras you haue euer hitherto giuen the ordering of these things to the Church how come you now to (3) An vn truth for I gyue it not to the Byshops only but to a godly Prince with the aduice and consent of godly and learned Byshops and other of the wisest ascribe it to the Byshops you meane I am sure the Byshops as we call Byshops here in England whereby you fall into the opinion of the Papists vnawares whiche when they haue spoken many things of the Churche inagnifically at the last they bring it now to the doctours of the Church now to Byshops As for me although I doubt not but there be many good men of the Byshops and very learned also and therefore very meete to be admitted into that consultation whereinit shall be considered what things are good in the Church yet in respect of that office and calling of a Byshop which they now exercise I thinke that euery godly learned minister and pastour of the Churche hath more interest and righte in respect of his office to be at that consultation then any Byshop or Archbishop in the Realme for as much as he hath an ordinarie calling of God and function appoynted in the scriptures which he exerciseth and the other hath not But how this authoritie perteyning to the
and partes of the Churche Chap. 5. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 153. Sect. 2. M. Bucer in his censure vpon the Communion booke speaking of Bucer the order appointed in the same for priuate Baptisme writeth thus In this constitution all things are godly appoynted I vvoulde to God they Differring of baptisme not expedient vvere so obserued and especially this that the baptisme of infants be not differred for therby is a dore opened vnto the Deuill to bring in a contempt of baptisme and so of our whole redemption and cōmunion of Christ which thorough the sect of Anabaptistes hath to much preuayled vvith many T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 2. In the 153. page M. Bucers censure vpon the cōmunion booke is cited for the allowaunce of that it hath touching priuate baptisme and consequently of the baptisme by women It may be that as M. Bucer although otherwise very learned hath (*) This is but grosse courtesie other grosse absurdities so he may haue that But it had bene for the credite of your cause if you had shewed that out of those writings which are published knowne to be his not out of those wherof men may doubt whether euer he wrote any such or no And if he wrote whether they be corrupted by those into whose hands they came And if you would take any aduauntage of M. Bucers testimonie considering that a witnesse is a publike person you should haue brought him out of your studie into the stationers shop where he mought haue bene common to others as well as to you whereby his stile and manner of writing as it were by his gestures and countenaunces and by those things that go before and come after as it were by his head and by his fecte we might the better know whether it were the true Bucer or no. Io. Whitgifte It is very grosse courtesie that you shewe to so worthie and learned a man modestie The reuerēce which T. C. giueth to learned men and charitie would not haue bene so rashe as to answere that whiche he well speaketh in opprobriously obiecting vnto him his other errours which you call grosse absurdities But this is the reuerence that you giue to all learning and learned men that are contrary to your opinions I haue sometimes heard a Papiste burst out into this rage against M. Bucer beyng pressed with his authoritie But you are the first professour of the Gospell that euer I hearde so churlishly to vse so reuerent so learned so paynefull so sounde a father being also an earnest and zelous professour It causeth me the lesse to regarde what you speake of me when I heare such bitternesse agaynst all other be they neuer so zealous and excellent Well Bucers reasons which touch the quicke would haue bene reasonablie answered without spyte and you should rather haue considered them than the authour There is nothing in these woordes by him affirmed which is not in as playne termes auouched by Zuinglius in the woordes before recited The booke of M. Bucers is forth cōming to be shewed and he affirmeth nothing therein contrary to his bookes published he had more speciall occasion here offred to speake both of this and other matters now in controuersie and therefore the more he is to be credited Chap. 5. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 2. For although I wil not say but that this may be Bucers doing yet it seemeth very straunge that Bucer should not onely contrarie to the learned writers nowe but also contrary to all learned antiquitie and contrarie to the practise of the Churche whilest there was any tollerable estate allowe of womens baptizing (a) De virgin velan Tertullian sayeth it is not permitted to a woman to speake in the Churche nor to teache or to baptize nor to do any worke of a man much lesse of a minister (b) Lib. de Baptis And in an other place although he do permit it to be done by Laye men in the time of necessitie as it is termed yet he giueth not that licence to the woman (c) Epiph. li. 1. contra haeres Epiphanius vpbraydeth Marcion that he suffred women to baptise And (d) Lib. Vbi de Phry gib Priscil in an other booke he derideth them that they made women Bishops And (e) Lib. 3. in an other booke he sayeth it was not graunted vnto the holy mother of Christe to baptise hir Sonne Io. Whitgifte M. Bucer speaketh not one woorde in this place of baptising by women but of priuate Baptisme which neyther Tertullian nor Epiphanius in these places by you alleaged do disallow Chap. 5. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 115. Lin. 6. 1. Li. de merit remis peccat 24. cap. Contra E pist Parmen lib. 2. 13. cap. Augustine although he were of that minde that children could not be saued without baptisme An vntruth yet in the time of necessitie as it is called he doth not allow eyther of baptisme in priuate houses or by women but when there was daunger the women hasted to carie the children vnto the Church and although he do seeme to allowe of the baptisme of a Lay man in the time of necessitie yet there also he mentioneth not womens baptisme And further he doubteth whether the childe shoulde be baptised againe which was baptised by a laye man Io. Whitgifte Where doth S. Augustine disallow baptising by women or in priuate houses he vttereth no suche thing in any of the places quoted in the margente Will you still counterfeit is there no ende with you of falsifying In his seconde booke contra Epistolam Parmeniani Cap. 13. he dothe not onely say that a lay man may baptise in the tyme of necessitie but he also addeth that if it be ministred without necessitie yet notwithstanding that it is baptisme as appeareth in these words as I haue before sayde But althoughe it be vsurped he meaneth baptisme by lay men without necessitie Aug. lib. 2. contra Epist. Parm. cap. 13. and is giuen of any man to any man that whiche is giuen can not be sayde not to be giuen althoughe it maye be rightly sayde that it is not lawfully giuen And he dothe make the same manyfest by two prety similitudes following whiche I omitte for to auoyde tediousnesse The learned Reader maye in that place of Augustine soone perceyue what an errour this is to saye that the Minister is of the substance and beeing of the Sacrament neyther dothe he in eyther of the places eyther disallowe baptisme by women or in priuate houses as you affirme but ad Fortunatum he saythe thus In Aug. ad Fortunatum necessitie when the Bishops or Priests or any other minister can not be founde and the daunger of him that requireth dothe constrayne least he shoulde departe this lyfe without this sacrament we haue heard that euen lay men haue giuen the sacrament that they haue receyued Chap. 5. the. 11. Diuision T.
greately suspected the slaunderous reportes of the backbiter and of the vnlearned tongue the one bicause he loueth to speake euill and heare euill of all those that be not in all pointes inclinable to his fansie whereof I haue greate experience being my selfe most vniustly sclaundered by that viperous kind of men the other bicause they be not able to iudge of controuersies according to learning and knowledge and therefore are ruled by affection and carried headlong with blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous opinions Lastly bycause I know sundry in all respects worthy men much more able to deale in such matters than I am But when I considered my duty towards God to his Church and to our most gracious Lady and soueraigne Elizabeth hir Maiestie by whose ministerie God hath giuen his Gospell free passage vnto vs the first stop and hindrance was answered For I thought that that dutie ought not to be omitted for any such cause seeing God and not man shall be my iudge and also that not he which defendeth the truth and confu eth errours but he that impugneth the truth and spreddeth sects is the authoure of contention Likewise when I remembred that it was no newe thing to haue contentions sects and schismes in the Church of Christ especially whē it enioyeth externall peace and that we had manifest examples there of from tyme to tyme fyrste in Peter and Paule ad Gal. 2. Paule and Barnabas Acto 15. then in the Churche of the Corinthians 1. Cor. 1. 3. Afterwardes betwixte the orientall Churche and occidentall Churche touching Easter and suche like matters Betwixte the Bishops of Aphrica and the Byshoppes of Italie for rebaptising of Heretikes and sundry tymes yea vsually in the externall peace of the Churche as may be more at large seene in Eusebius lib. 4. eccl histo cap. 6. libr. 5. cap. 24. 25. 26. li. 8. c. Likewise in Ruffinus lib. 1. ca. 1. In Zozom lib. 6. cap. 4. In Basilius Magnus ep 61. ad fratres episcopos in occidente ep 69. in sundry other auncient and learned histories and writers For the second point I was satisfyed For I thought that that coulde be no slaunder to thys Churche which by the malice of Sathan hath ben practised in all Churches euen since the ascention of Christe Thirdly when I perceiued that these men against whom I now write did agree with the aduersaries in defacing the state of Religion the order of Common prayers the Ministerie the Sacramentes the kinde of Gouernment c. vsed and allowed in this Realme of Englande and that in as opprobrious and spitefull maner as the aduersaries doo lykewise that they seeke to ouerthrowe the selfe same pillers of this Church with the aduersaries although not by the selfe same meanes I thoughte that the confutation and ouerthrowe of the one should be the confutation and ouerthrow of the other and therfore the aduersaries to haue small cause in deede of reioycing Agaynst backbyters slaunderers and vnlearned toungs I shall by Gods grace arme my self with pacience for their talke is no sufficient cause for a man to abstaine from doing his dutie To conclude I although the vnworthyest and vnmeetest of a great number was bold to take vpon me this enterprise partely to shewe that the booke called the Admonition is not such but that it may easily be answered and especially to satisfie myne owne conseience for I considered that if no man had taken vpon him the enuie of the cōmon sort in with standing the enterprises and proceedings of the Anabaptistes when they began in Germanie Anabaptisme had ouerrunne those Churches and vtterly destroyed them These were the reasons that satisfied the former obiections and especially moued me to take vpon me this labour wherwith if I can also satisfie others I haue my desire if not yet haue I done my duetie and satisfied myne owne conscience And forasmuche as the matter toucheth the state of the whole Churche of Englande I thought it moste meete to dedicate this my booke rather vnto the same generally than to any one particular member thereof protesting that if I haue affirmed any thing therein that by learnyng good reasons may be proued erroneous I will reforme the same for I wholly submitte it to the rule of Gods worde and the iudgement of those that be learned discrete and wyse The Lorde blesse thee O deare spouse of Christe with the continuance of his Gospell of the Queenes Maiestie and of godlie peace and quietnesse Amen An answere to the whole Epistle to the Church T. C. WHat causes either pulled you forwarde or thruste you backwarde to write or not to write and how in this dispute with your selfe in the end you were resolued to write in this sorte I leaue it vnto the iudgement of the Lorde who only knoweth the secrets of the hart and wil in his good time vnseale them But if there be any place of coniecture the hatred of cōtention which you set downe as the first and principal cause that beate you backe from writing might wel haue bin put as the last and least or rather none at all For if peace had bin so precious vnto you as you pretend you woulde not haue brought so many hard wordes bitter reproches e mylike speaches as it were sticks and coales to double and treble the heate of contention If the sharpnesse of the Admonition misliked you and you thinke that they outreached in some vehemencie of words how could you more effectually haue confuted that than to haue in a quiet and I de spirit set them in the way which in your opinion had left it Now in words condemning it and approuing it in your deedes I will not say that you do not so muche mislike this sharpnesse as you are A charitable figure sory that you are preuented and are not the first in it But this I may well say vnto you whiche he said Quid verba audiam cum facta videam what should I heare words whē I see the dedes In the fourthe reason whereby you were discouraged to write if by backbiters and vnlearned tonges viperous kind of men not able to iudge of controuersies caried away with affections and blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous ▪ opinions you meane al those that thinke not as you do in these matters I answer for my selfe and for as many as I knowe of them that they are they which first desire so it be truly to heare and speake all good of you But if that bee not through your perseuerance in the maintenance of the corruptions of this Church which you should help to purge then the same are they that desire that both the euill whiche you haue done and that which you haue yet in your hart to do may be knowne to the lesse discredite of the truthe and sinceritie which you with such might and maine do striue against Touching our (a) A manifest
haue much a do to proue that Antichrist had not inuaded the sce of Rome when your Clement Anaclete Anicete and Damasus wrote nay it is most certayne that then he had possessed it but what is that to the purpose although there was no one singular head appeared or lifted vp yet corruptiō of doctrine of the sacraments hurtful ceremonies dominion pompe of y e Cleargie new orders functions of y e ministerie which were the hāds that pulled him y e feete which brought him the shoulders that lifted and heaued hym vp into that seat were in the Church Neither while you do thus speake do you seeme to remember that this monster needed not nine monethes but almost nine hundred yeares to be framed and fashioned or euer he could with all his parts be brought to light And althoughe the louer of this Antichristian building were not set vp yet the foundations thereof being secretly and vnder the grounde laid in the Apostles time you might easily know that in those times that you spake of y e building was wonderfully aduaunced growen very high and being a very daungerous thing to ground any order or pollicie of the Churche vpon men at all which in deede ought to haue their standing vpon the doctrine and orders of the Apostles I wyll shew what great iniurie M. Doctor doth to send vs for our examples and patterns of gouernment to these times which he doth dicette vs vnto Io. Whitgifte These be but wordes the same mighte be also spoken of the Apostles times For Antichrist began in the Apostles tunes 2. Thess. 2. 1. Io. 2. enen then Paul speaking of Antichrist sayd Nam mysterium nuncagit iniquitatis for the mysterie of iniquitie doth already worke And S. Iohn sayd that there then began to be many Antichristes but doth this detract any thing from the truth taught in that time or shall we therfore refuse to take such examples of it as is conuenient for our time There is no man of learning and modestie which will without manifest proofe condemne any order especially touching the gouernment of the Churche that was vsed and allowed during the time of the primitiue Church which was the next 500. yéeres after Christ within the which time most of my authorities are conteined Neyther was there any functiō or office brought into the Church during al that time allowed by any generall Councel or credible writer which was not most meete for that time and allowable by the word of God I graunt that Antichrist was working all this time and grewe more and more for else could there neuer haue bene so many sectes and heresies from time to tyme spred in the Church which was the cause of so many singular and notable Councels so many profitable and necessary bookes written by such learned and godly Doctors as did with might and maine striue against them Out of the which Councels and fathers and best witnesses what was done in those times I haue fetched my proofes euen out of them I say that did with might and maine labour to kepe out Antichrist from the possession of the Church and therefore not to be suspected to consent to Antichrist I knowe that those sectes and heresies gaue strength vnto Antichriste and at the length were one speciall meanes of placing him in his throne euen as I am also perswaded Antichrist worketh in England by contentious persons that he worketh as effectually at this daye by your styrres and contentions wherby he hath and will more preuaile against this Church of England than by any other meanes whatsoeuer Therefore it behoueth you to take héede how you deuide the armie of Christ which should vnanimiter fight against that Antichrist As for vs we must follow the examples of those good fathers and labour accordingly to restore vnitie and to preserue it Chap. 2. the. 37. Diuision T. C. Pag. 73. Sect. vlt. Eusebius out of Egesippus writeth y e as long as the Apostles lyued y e Church remained a pure virgin for that if there were any that went about to corrupt the holy rule that was preached they Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 32. did it in the darke and as it were digging vnderneath the earth But after the death of the Apostles and that generation was paste whiche God vouchsaued to heare the diuine wisedome with their owne eares then the placing of wicked error began to come into the Church Io. Whitgifte It is euident in diuerse places of the Scripture namely in the first Epistle to the Corruptions in the churche in the Apostles time ▪ Corinthians and the Epistle to the Galath that there were many grosse and greate corruptions openly professed in the Churche by diuerse not onely in maners but also in doctrine euen in the Apostles tyme and Eusebius hymselfe declareth that there Euseb. lib. 2. Cap. 13. Idē Lib. 3. was one Simon mencioned Acts. 8. whom he calleth the author of all heresie Lib. 2. Cap. 13. Likewyse he sheweth Lib. 3. that Ebion Cerinthus and the Nicholaites all horrible heretikes were in the Apostles time Wherefore if this be a good reason then is it not safe for vs to follow no not the Apostles time Chap. 2. the. 38. Diuision T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 1. Element also in a certayne place to confirme that there was corruption of doctrine immediately Li. stromat somvvhat after the be ginning after the Apostles time alleageth the prouerb that there are fewe sonnes like their fathers Io. Whitgifte I can finde no such thing in Clement but the matter is not great whether he saye so or no. The argument is starke noughte for if this followe that we may take no example paterne or testimonie of gouernment out of that time bycause it was corrupte then by the same reason muste we not take examples of any tyme no not out of the Apostles time bicause that was also corrupte as I haue saide Your argumentes be passing strong surely I maruaile with what boldnesse you write them Chap. 2. the. 39. Diuision T. C. Page 74. Sect. 2. And Socrates sayth of the Church of Rome and Alexandria which were the most famous Li. 7. 11. Churches in the Apostles tymes that aboute the yeare 430. the Romane and Alexandrian Byshops (*) Socrates fal fied leauyng the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule or dominion wherevpon we see that it is safe for vs to goe to the Scriptures and to the Apostles tymes for to fetche our gouernment and order and that it is very daungerous to drawe from those ryuers the fountaynes wherof are troubled and corrupted especially when as the wayes whereby they runne are muddier and more fennie than is the head itselfe Io. Whitgifte You falsifie the wordes of Socrates for thus be sayth For euen till that tyme the Nouatians florished maruellously at Rome and had manye Churches and had gathered Socra lib. 7. Cap. 11. muche people But enuie tooke holde of
election consequently y e throwing out it hath bene shewed before that together with the church the Eldership hath the principal swaye For y e decision of controuersies when they rise it may apeare in the. 15. of the Actes y t the Presbyterie or Eldership of the church hath to determine of that also Now it remaineth here that wheras M. Doctor saith that the excommunication and consequently the absolution or restoring to the church again doth perteme only to the minister y e I shew that the presbyterie or eldership the whole church also hath interest in the excommunication consequently in the absolution or restoring vnto the church But here by the waye it is to be (*) 〈◊〉 not worthy the noting noted that in saying that it belongeth to y e minister he confesseth y e disorder in our church wherin this power is taken away from the minister and giuen to the Byshop and his officers Io. Whitgifte Of Election of ministers so of their reiection throwing out sufficient hath bin spoken Tract 3. before your manner of electing by better reasons confuted than it was by you proued for the decisions of controuersies when they arise it may appeare in the. 15. of y e Acts that the best way is to call Synodes Councels of learned mē as it was there practised not to cōmit such matters to the pastor of euery seuerall parish certaine of his neighbours whom you call the Seigniorie for if it had bin so what néeded Paule and Barnabas haue takē so long a iourney frō Antioche to Ierusalē for y e deciding of their cōtrouersies séeing y t they the Seigniorie if there had bin any such might haue ended the same at home in Antioche This place vndoubtedly ouerthroweth your Seigniorie except now you wil take it as it is in ecclesiastical writers oftētimes takē for a Synode or cōuocatiō of bishops priests so y e not your Seigniorie which is in euery parishe but general or prouincial Coūcels Synodes must haue y e deciding of cōtrouersies else as I sayd before why should Paule and Barnabas come from Antioche to Ierusalem to haue their controuersies determined Your note by the way is not worth a rushe for when I say y t the execution of discipline is onely committed to the ministers of the word you cannot therevpon cōclude that euery minister hath authoritie to exercise it in the church It is one thing to saye only ministers haue authoritie to excōmunicate to saye that all ministers haue authoritie so to do only ministers may be Bishops yet all ministers be not Bishops only Lawyers may be Iudges yet all Lawyers be not Iudges only citezens may be Aldermen Sherifes Maiors yet all be not so wherfore by the waye here you ouersot your selfe And yet I thinke that all ministers haue power to excommunicate if the Church thinke it good to committe that authoritie vnto them Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 146. Sect. 4. Now that this charge of excommunication belongeth not vnto one or to the minister but chiefly to the Eldership and Pastor it appeareth by that which the authors of the Admonition alleage out of S. Mathew which place I haue proued before to be necessarily vnderstanded of the elders of the 18. Chap. churche Io. Whitgifte I haue tolde you before how that place of Mathew is to be vnderstanded what it is to tell the Church namely either to reproue the partie openly before the congregation or else to complaine to such as haue authoritie in the church to whome y e executing of discipline is committed which is by the order of the church of Englande the Bishop And therefore the Bishop alone both by the lawes of God and of this churche of England which hath giuen vnto him by consent in Parliament that authoritie may exercise this discipline Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision Admonition Then it was sayd tel l Math. 18. 17 the church now it is spoken complayne to my Lordes grace Primate and Metropolitane of all Englande or to his inferiour my Lorde Byshop of the Diocesse if not to hym shewe the Chauncellour or Officiall or Commissarie or Doctour Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 135. Sect. 1. As it was saide then so ought you and may you say now in priuate offences yf priuate admonitions wyll not serue then muste you declare them to the church either by reprehending of them publikely before the whole congregation if you be called therevnto for that is Churche signifieth those that haue authoritie in the churche one kynde of telling the churche or else by complayning to suche as haue authoritie in the church for in that place of Mathewe as all learned interpretours both olde and newe do determine the churche signifieth such as haue authoritie in the churche Therefore when you complayne to my Lordes grace Lorde Bishop of the Dioces or their Chauncellors Commissaries c. You tell the church that is suche as be appointed to be publike Magistrates in the churche according to the very true sense and interpretation of that place T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. vlt. It is moste absurdly sayd of M. doctor in the. 135. page that by the church is vnderstāded either my Lordes grace or the Byshop of the Dioces or the Chauncellor or Commissarie And that when a man complayneth vnto one of these he may be well sayde to complayne vnto the churche whiche is the more vntollerable for that beyng so straunge a saying and suche as may astonyshe at that heare it he neyther confirmeth it by no reason by no lyke phrase of scripture by no authoritie of any Godly or approued wryter olde or newe whiche notwithstanding he seeketh for so diligently and turneth the commentaries in his studie so paynefully whē he can haue but one against twenty and but a sillable where he cannot haue a sentence Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed sufficient authoritie for my saying euen the consent of all learned interpreters who by the church in that place vnderstande such as haue chiefe authoritie in the church which in this church of Englād as I haue sayd are bishops Chrysostome Chryso t. Hom. 61. in Math. sayth as much as I do so that it néede not to séeme so straunge that it should astonishe all thee heare it his wordes be these Dic ecclesiae Praesulibus scilicet Praesidentibus Tell the churche that is the Prelates and Presidents But you thinke to ouerlode me with vnséemely wordes howbeit that will not carry away the cause I am so vsed to them by you and yours both in speache and writing that I estéeme them now I thanke God as I do the dust of my féete If I seeke the writers so diligently and tourne the commentaries in my studie so painfully why do you so oft accuse me of ignorance wante of reading taking my pleasure Ex ore tuo te iudico c. mendacem
many things out of order and that not by the iudgement of the Admonition and fauourers thereof onely but euen of all whiche are not willingly blinde I say if he do not amende these speaches the crime of false prophecie will sitte closer vnto him than he shall be euer able to shake of in the terrible day of the Lorde Io. Whitgifte There muste be as well rewardes for those that haue spent much time in getting There muste be rewardes for learning already atteyned learning and be learned as there muste be meanes to maynteyne men whiles they be in learning Grammer schooles and the Uniuersities serue for the one and Cathedrall churches with such other preferments serue for the other spoyle the one and the other can not possibly stande Your immodest and vncharitable speaches worke most discredite to your selfe That which I speake of other Churches by way of comparison I speake for the truth of the doctrine sincere administration of the Sacramentes and all other poynts of Religion by publike authoritie established in this Realme wherein I say agayne that there is no cause why it should giue place to any Churche that n we is And yet I do not defende the faultes of men or other corruptions from the which no Church is frée But for the cryme of false prophecie wherewith you charge me I truste it be farre from me I woulde pronenesse to contention and vncharitable iudging ▪ were as farre from you Howbeit we both must stand or fall to our owne Lord and therefore it is no good iudging before the time ¶ Of ciuill Officies in Ecclesiasticall persons Tract 23. A triall of the places alleaged by the Admonition agaynst such ciuill offices as are exercised by Ecclesiasticall persons in this realme Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 3. The places alleaged by the Admonition to prone that ministers of the church may not intermeddle with ciuill functions one onely excepted are well and fitly alleaged and most of them vsed to that ende of writers which if I should name (*) Lorde howe lowe would you throwe him downe all would confesse that they are such as with whom M. Doctor is not worthy to be so much as spoken of the same day Io. Whitgifte ▪ This is more than modestie would suffer and tootoo outrageous for whatsoeuer the worthinesse of these men is otherwise yet am Ia minister of the woorde as well as they I am a member of the Church of Christ as well as they I am bought with his bloud as well as they therfore to say that I am not worthie to be so much as spokē of the same day wherein they are named is but extréeme immodestie passing contempt There is not so much attributed to Iesus Christ nor the Popes flatterers did neuer so excessiuely extoll him Are they so woorthie that a man may not be spoken of the same day that they are named who be they trowe we or what is their names But belike you are afrayde to name them least by speaking of me the same day you shoulde do vnto them some great dishonour in your iudgement they are better than God himselfe for the simplest that is may be named the same day that God is In déede a pretie cloake to couer your vayne bragging for I thinke you woulde haue named them if you had knowne them But to the matter Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Admonition Moreouer in that they haue s Luc. 9. 60. 61. Luc. 12. 14. Rom. 12. 7. 1. Tim. 6. 11 2. Tim. 2. 3. 4. Bishops pri sōs popishe Eugenius the firste bringer of them in ciuill offices ioyned to the Ecclesiasticall it is agaynst the worde of God As for an Archbishop to be a Lorde president a Lord Bishop to be a Countie Palatine a prelate of the Garter who hath much to do at S ▪ Georges feast when the Bible is caried before the Procession in the crosses place a Iustice of peace or Iustice of Quorum an high Commissioner c. And therfore they haue their prysons as Clinkes G t houses Colehouses towres and astles which is also agaynst the Scriptures This is not to haue keyes but swordes and playne tokens they are that they exercise that which they would so fayne seeme to wante I meane dominion ouer theyr brethren Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 214. Sect. 2. To proue that ciuill offices ioyned to the Ecclesiasticall is against the worde of God first you note Luke 9. verse 60. 61. where it is thus writtē And Iesus sayd vnto him let the dead burie the dead but go thou and preach the kingdome of God Then an other sayd I wil follow thee Lord but let me first go bid them farevvell vvhich are at my house How conclude you any thing of these places against ciuill offices in Ecclesiastical persons Christs meaning in this place is to teache vs I meane all Christians that when he calleth vs we ought not to be hindred from following and that forthwith by any excuse of doing dutie towards our friends or respect of worldly commoditie or for feare of any payne or trouble and this is spoken generally to all Christians and not alone to any one kinde of men T. C. Pag. 165. Sect. 4. For the first place if so be that the minister ought rather to leaue necessarie duties of burying 9. Lu his father and saluting his friendes vndone than that he shoulde not accomplishe his ministerie to the full much more he ought not to take vpon him those things which are not onely not necessarie dueties but as it shall appeare do in no case belong vnto him And although it may be applied to all Christians yet it doth most properly belong vnto the ministers Io. Whitgifte This is no answere to that which I haue sayde for I say that the meaning of Christ in this place is that when we are called to eternall life by him we ought not to protracte the time nor to séeke any delayes but leaue all and follow him this is the meaning of Christ this is the summe of my Answere and to this you say nothing but make a new collection that the minister ought rather to leaue necessarie duties of burying his father c. which though it be not the direct sense of this place yet I graunt it to be true for such ciuill offices as I allow in Ecclesiasticall persons are helpes for them to do their duties Wherefore as this place is vnaptly applied by the Admonition so is it vnanswered by you it may as well be vsed to debarre anyother Christians from ciuill functions as ministers of the woorde Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 215. Sect. 1. Secondly for the same purpose you vse Luke 12. verse 14. where Christ speaking to him that sayde vnto him Master bid my brother deuide the inheritance vvith me answereth on this sorte Man vvho made me a iudge or a deuider ouer you Christ came in
their ministerie and those thyngs whych the worde of God doth necessarily put vpon them least the strength of theyr mynde and of theyr body beeyng distracted vnto many things they shoulde be the lesse able to accomplishe their ministerie vnto the full Which may also partly appeare by that whych I haue alleaged out of Cyprian whyche wyll not permit them so much as to be executors of a Testament And in the. 80. Canon of those which are ascribed vnto the Apostles it is enioyned that they should not entangle themselues with worldly offices but attende vpon their ecclesiasticall affayres Io. Whitgifte If you compare the state of the Churche before the time of Christian Kings with the state of it vnder Christian Kings you make an vnequall comparison For howe coulde ecclesiasticall persons enioy any ciuill function when there was no ciuil Magistrate christian to commit the same vnto them How could by this meanes the gouernment of the Church be thought to be helped by the Ciuill Magistrate when as it had no greater enimies than ciuill Magistrates who sought by all meanes to suppresse and destroy it but nowe to your reasons To yprians authoritie I haue answered before The Canons of the Apostles haue nowe béene alleaged by you at the least 4. or 5. times and yet is not their credite and authoritie so firme But that Canon meaneth onely suche worldely causes as be impedimentes to their vocation and I haue tolde you often that ciuill functions be necessarie helpes to the dooing and ful accomplishing of their ecclesiasticall office I haue expressed in my Answere to the Admonition what worldly affayres a minister of the word may not intangle him selfe with Chap. seconde the. 8. diuision T. C. Pag. 168. Sect. vlt. Further in the * councell of Calcedon it was decreed that none of the clearkes cleargie Tom. 1. can 3. as it termeth them should receyue any charge of those which are vnder age vnlesse they were such as the lawes dyd necessarily cast vpon him which it calleth inexcusable charges meaning by all likelihoode the wardship of his brothers children or some such thing Where is also declared the cause of that decree to haue bin for that there were certayne ministers which were Stewards to noble men And 〈◊〉 the. 7. canon of the same councell it is decreed that none of the cleargy shoulde eyther goe to warfare as souldiours or captaynes or should receyue any secular honors and if they dyd they should be excommunicated or accursed Io. Whitgifte The words of the thirde Canon be these Relation is made vnto this holy Synode Con. Calced can 3. that certayn amongst the cleargie for filthie lucers sake hyer other mens possessions take vpon them the causes of secular businesse and through slouthfulnesse separate themselues frō diuine functions and runne to the houses of secular persons for couetousnesse take vpon thē the gouernment of their substance therfore this holy vniuersall great Synode hath decreed that none of these hereafter that is Bishop or Clearke or Monke shall hyer possessions or intermeddle with secular possessions except those that by lawe are dryuen to take the tuition and care of suche as be vnder age or those to whome the Bishop of the Citie hathe committed the gouernment of ecclesiasticall things and of Orphanes and widowes which are without succour or of such persons which neede the helpe of the Church for the feare of God c. This Canon conteyneth nothing contrarie to my assertion the words of the Canon be playne I shall not néede to vse any exposition of it Onely I would haue the Reader marke the weight of your argument which is this The Councell of Chalcedon sayeth that Clerkes may not for filthy lucres sake hyre other mennes possessions or take vpon them for couetousnesse sake the gouernment of other mennes possessions c. therefore there may be no ciuill office committed vnto them I will aske no better cōmentaries to the Canon of the Apostles before alledged or any other suche like than this very Canon of the Councell of Chalcedon To what purpose do you alledge the. 7. Canon of that Councell did you euer heare me say that I would haue a minister to be a Souldier or a captaine in warre or enioy any such secular honor or offices wherefore you lacke probation when you are constrayned to vse this ¶ The reasons vsed in the Answere iustified Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Lin. 4. Sect. 1. 2. Now I come to M. Doctors arguments which he bringeth to establish this disorder And first he sayth ministers of the worde may not occupie themselues in worldly businesse as to be marchants husbandmen craftes men and such like but they may exercise ciuil offices Wher first of all I perceyue M. Doctor is of this mynde that the order of God is not to be broken for small gayne or when a man must take great toyle of the bodie to breake it but if it may be broken with getting of honor and doing of those things which may be done without toyle and with great commendation then it is lawfull to breake it In deede so the Poet but in the person of an vniust and ambitious man sayde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is If a man muste do vniustiy he must do it to beare rule Secondarily I do see that M. Doctor will not be shackled and hindred from his ministerie by a payre of yron fetters but if he can get a payre of golden fetters he is contented to be hampered and entangled from doing the office of ministerie committed vnto him For vnlesse these should be the causes which should moue him to take the one and refuse the other verily I see none Io. Whitgifte This is to deride not to answere M Bucer writing vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. Bucer rehearsing such worldly businesse as withdrawe the minister from his function and therefore be not meete for him to exercise sayth thus Such businesse as warfare market affayres marchandise hucksters craft the ouersight of Innes Tauerns and bathes to exercise vnliberall craftes as to digge mettals and stones to burne lyme to carie sande to be schauengers and such like You haue not yet proued that Gods order is broken if the ciuill offices which I speake of be committed to Ecclesiasticall persons Your iesting tauntes I leaue to those that professe that cunning Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 2. For whereas he sayth it is a helpe and maynteyneth religion in deede that is the reason of the Lib. 4. cap. 11. Papistes which M. Caluin confuteth in his institution And although it be good and necessary to punish vice and iniquitie by corporall punishmentes and by ciuill corrections yet it doth no more followe that that should be done by the ministers than it followeth that for that preachyng and ministring the Sacramentes and excommunication are good and necessarie therfore the same is fitte to be executed
Collections made in vaine and framed according to your owne pleasure not so my meaning If you haue done it of ignorance you are to be excused if of set purpose you are to be blamed And wheras you say that M. Doctor must vnderstand that this was ecclesiastical powers Peters punishing of Ananias was by ciuill iurisdiction ▪ Beza de Haeret à Magist. puniendis I say on the other side that you must vnderstand that this was not ecclesiasticall but méere ciuill which you might haue learned of M. Beza in diuers places of his booke de Haereticis à Magistratu pun For thus he writeth Cedò igitur Christus quo iure flagellum his corripuit quo iure Petrus Ananiam Sapbiram occidit quo iure Paulus Elymam excaecauit ▪ Num ecclesiastici ministerij minimè profectò nisi iurisdictiones confundas Ergo ciuilis Magistratus iure Nihil enim est tertium Tell me therefore by what lawe did Christ take the whip in hand twise by what law did Peter kill Ananias and Saphira by what right did Paule strike Elymas with blindnesse did they those things by the right of the ecclesiasticall ministerie no truly except you will confound iurisdictions They did it therefore by the right of ciuill magistracie for ther is no meane And to the same purpose doth he speake sundry times in that booke What outcries I haue vsed or declamations which you haue not in ample manner requited adding to the same al opprobrious kind of speaches and iesting taunts that you could deuise let the indifferent Reader iudge wherfore I hartely wish vnto you both better knowledge and better conscience Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 171. Sect. 1. Unto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that Pope Eugensus brought in prisons into the Church as also vnto the three or fower such like demands ▪ which he maketh in this booke the authours of the Admonition answer at once that this and the other are found in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Io. Whitgifte What authors doe they alleadge for them for bothe these be but very late writers and this is a matter of historie and therfore requireth some greate antiquitie nerer vnto the tyme of Eugenius who liued Anno. 650. but you knowe verie well that our Bishops claim not this authoritie by any constitution or canon of the Pope neither doe they exercise it in their owne name but they haue it from the Prince and in hir name and by hir authoritie do they vse it Chap. 3. the. 14. Diuision Bishop of Sarum Both these gouernments vvere confounded in Moses Therfore they may be confounded and the Priestes of Israell had the iudgement and gouernment Ecclesiastical and ciuill iurisdiction confounded in Moses of the people and S. Augustine was troubled with hearing and determining of causes as it appeareth by Possidonius And where you say to be a chief or a ruler is a ciuill gouernment nay in ecclesiasticall causes it is ecclesiasticall gouernment and not ciuill And these differences of gouernment Augustine heareth ciuill causes may not so vnaduisedly be confounded This is the key of ecclesiasticall correction and belongerh onely to the ecclesiasticall officer and to none other Hereof Saincte Paule sayth Seniorem ne corripueris nisi sub c. Tradidi illum Satanae This iurisdiction is not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and therfore may be exercised by an ecclesiasticall person T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 1. 2. Here I wyll take in that whiche the Bishop of Sarisburye hath in the last page of his half sheete touching this matter And fyrst of all I well agree that he sayth that to giue vnto Sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an ecclesiasticall person by reprehension or putting him out of the ministerie if the cause so require is mere ecclesiastical and not ciuill and that those things ought to be done of the officers of the Churche This onely I denye that the ministers ought to medle with ciuill offices For proofe whereof the Bishop alleageth the example of Augustine whiche as Possidonius writeth was troubled with the hearing determining of causes Wherin Possidonius sayth nothing but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister with the elders ought both to heare and determine of causes but of such causes as perteyne vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidomus ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustine as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that which he writeth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certain in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accounted of this as of compulsien and resiraynte from his better busynesses Wherby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not with those worldly affaires further than by way of giuing counsell which is not vnlawfull for a minister to doe as one friende vnto another so that his ministerie be not therby hindered Io. Whitgifte What S. Augustine did in such matters and whether he weroccupied in worldly Augustine iudge in worldely matters matters or no and that he was not a counsell giuer only but also a iudge it shall best appeare by his owne wordes spoken of himselfe whiche are so playne and euident that after you haue hearde them you will be ashamed of this answere to Possidonius and of your former assertion also Augustine therefore in his booke de opere Aug. lib. de opere Monac Monachorum of this matter writeth thus VVho feedeth a flock and doth not receiue of the milke of the flocke And yet I call to witnesse vpon my soule the Lorde Iesus in whose name I doe boldely speake these thinges that touchyng myne owne commoditie I hadde rather euerye daye as it is appoynted in well ordered Monasteries to woorke some thyng wyth my handes and to haue the other houres free to reade and to praye or too dooe somme thynge in the Holye Scriptures than too suffer the tumultuous perplexities of other mennes causes touchyng secular businesse eyther in determinyng them by iudging or in cutting them off by intreatyng to the whyche troubles Augustine thinketh that the how ghost hath bounde Bishops to ciuill causes the Apostle hathe bounde vs not by his owne iudgement but by the iudgement of hym whyche didde speake in him and yet hee himselfe did not suffer these troubles for the discourse of his Apostleship was otherwyse Here in playne woordes hée declareth that it was secular busynesse aboute the whyche he was occupyed and although he séeme to complayne of the multitude of suche businesse yet dothe hee acknowledge the same to bee lawfull iuste and conueniente and therefore he addeth and sayeth VVhyche laboure notwythstandyng wee suffer not without the consolation of the Lorde for the hope of eternall lyfe that wee maye bryng foorthe frute wyth pacience for wee are seruauntes of that Churche and especially to the weaker members what members soeuer wee are in the same bodie And
with the fault of the print or by carping at the translation when the wordes being changed the sense remayneth or by alleadging that such a one or such another was of this or that iudgement as you for the most part hauing nothing but his bare name haue done All whiche thinges you haue committed in this booke ▪ but that you confute it by the authoritie of the worde of God by good and sound reasons wholy and not by peecemeale And if you bring the practise of the churches we desire that it may be out of authorities which are extant which are not counterfeyte and which were in the best and purest times And if you thinke that the credite of your Doctor ship or Deanry will beare out that which you cannot answer your selfe besides that * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is neuer shut ▪ remember M. Doctor that lighte is come into tht worlde and The reuenging eye men will not be deluded with nothing nor abused with visards neyther let it embolden you which peraduenture hathe made poli presume the more in ▪ this booke to write any thing vppon hope that no man dare answer it For neyther the Queenes Maiestie nor hir honorable counsell as we are perswaded will deale so sharply with those whome they know to be faithfull and lawfull subiects which pray that all the treasures of Gods wisedome may be poured vpon them neither haue we cause to thinke but that as the euill opinion which is in part conceiued of vs hath growen vppon false and vntrue informations whiche you and such other haue giuen in crying in their eares that we be Anabaptists conspired with Papists Puritanes Donatists bringers in of confusion and anarchy enimies to ciuill gouernment and I know not what euen so when hir Maiestie and their honours shall vnderstand how farre we are from those wicked opinions they will leaue that opinion of vs ▪ and rather esteeme of vs by that we haue preached taught and now write than that whiche other men report of vs being thinges which we neuer taught ▪ spake or so much as dreamed of Io. Whitgifte It is so farre from satisfying me in any point that it greatly confirmeth me in some thing where vnto before I did but incline Such is the weakenesse of your grounds Your request made vnto me is against all reason for how can you require that of The Replye requireth that of others which he him selfe woulde not performe me towarde you which you haue in no respect perfourmed towards me for firste you haue not set downe my booke that the Reader mighte perceiue how vprightly you deale with me secondly you haue passed ouer many thinges and left them vnanswered Thirdly you haue vnreasonably wrested my words and in most places you do nothing but wrangle you haue mangled my booke and so skipt from place to place that the Reader shall hardly perceine what you take or what you leaue to be short you haue vsed few scriptures and those vntollerably wrested How then can you require the contrary of me But I haue satisfied your request to the full I trust saue only I do not intend to learne of you how to answer what authoritie to vse but if the authorities and reasons that I bring shall be sound to be light they shall the more easily by you be remoued I depend not vppon the credit of my Doctorship or Deanry neither would I wish you too much to trust to the opinion of your owne learning and witte I say with Sainte Augustine Let scripture be compared with scripture reason with reason authoritie with authoritie cause with cause and let vs both according to the same be iudged I doubte not of the answering of my booke neyther do I feare it you knowe that Conference by writing hath bin often offered to the Replier I haue offered you diuerse tymes this kind of conference though not in thys publike manner I haue spoken nothing agaynste you before hir maiestie whyche your bookes and doings haue not proued to be true Hir Maiestie and their honours know what they haue to do the Lord blisse them with his holy spirit and in all their doings guide them Of the additions detractions and alterations made by the admonitors in both the partes of the Admonition T. C. Pag. 173. Sect. 1. Beside that often thne M. Doctor doth account the expositions and explanations corrections he ueth vs somewhat the lesse hope that he will correct his errours for that he purfueth the authours of the Admonition so harde correcting their very small and few slips whiche they haue made calling this singular destie and commendable hum tie amongst other reproches dalying and inconstancie when it is our profession euery day to learne better things For vnto what end should we liue if time if experiēce if reading iusing if conference should teach vs nothing And therefore when thinges are printed againe it is good and prayse worthy to polishe those thynges which are some what rud to mitigate these things which are too sharpe to make playne to giue light to those things which seeme darker and to correct that which is amisse I thinke M. Doctor should not be ignorante that wise men haue their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there second councells and those also wiser and better than their first as that sentence doth declare I will therefore say no more hereof but admonish M. Doctor that he receiue more louingly those whiche correcte themselues seing that the best defense to his booke must be not a correction here and there but a cleane blotting or striking out not an amending but a new making almost of his whole booke Other matter in his censures he hath almost none at all woorth the answering sauing that he hathe a place or two which toucheth the matters before entreated of Io. Whitgifte It behoueth such as will take vpon them to plucke downe that which is wel builded They whiche wil pul down the olde and place a newe platforme oughte to be v rie circumspecte and to make a new platforme to be well aduised what they do and assured of their cunning if this ought to be in humane matters and in externall affaires of the life of man how much more ought it to be in diuine matters and things perteyning to the kingdome of heauē I do not mislike that modestie and humilitie that is contente to be corrected and to acknowledge that whiche is ami e. But I can by no meanes allowe that pryde and arrogancie that presuming to condemne the whole state of a Churche and to prescribe vnto the same a newe platforme is by and by after through vnskilfulnesse and lack of discretion at the first constreyned to misselyke that newe platforme also and to p ce it and patch it like a beggers cloke with putting too and taking fro with altering and chaunging sometyme this and sometyme that like vnto foolishe and vnskilful buylders It behoueth suche as will take vpon them