his baptisme but he is all cleane I aske you then what if hée dye before he wash his féete He is cleane and therefore he shall not to hell as the vncleane Iudas Yet he is not so cleane but that he néeded more washing shall that then be quite omitted which so néeded and he to heauen before he be all cleane Well by al this you haue not yet proued that Christes bloud whensoeuer it washeth washeth continuallie and at once to the full Yea the saying of Dauid is manifest for the contrarie Hée was washed from his sinne by Christ and yet he prayeth for the same sinne saying Amplius laua me wash me more from my iniquitie clense me from my sinne In answering vnto it Psal 50. Pur. 97.78 you haue nothing to say but that it was at Gods handes and by the meanes of Christes bloud that he prayed to be clensed Yea syr but the place teacheth vs that God and that bloud do not at euery time wash one so fully but that they reserue yet to wash him more when it is thought good Now let vs heare also whether it folow that in suche washing nothing worketh with the bloud of Christ because the bloud is of it selfe omnisufficient The sufficiencie of Christes Passion saith he is counted a light argument to M. Allen. Pur. 154. Too light in déede to beare downe anye doctrine of Christ But sayth he thus wee reason Christe hath payde the full price of our sinnes hath fully satisfied for them therefore there is no parte of the price left to be paide by vs there remaineth no satisfaction for vs. And yet saith he againe We neither exclude repentance nor good works For Christ hath paide the price of their sinnes that repent and beleeue in him that folow his steppes that walke in his precepts So then he misliketh not that our workes should be with the passion of Christ but that they should worke with the passion of Christ and therefore he saith the absurditie of our doctrine is this that we say Christ by his suffering is become a cause of saluation to all that beleeue in him yet euery man by good works must procure his owne saluation These he saith are the enemies of the Crosse of Christ And yet it is the Scripture that saith Philip. 2. Worke your owne saluation Neither will he I trow cal the Apostle an enemie of God because he there saith It is God that worketh in you and yet worke your owne saluation Much lesse will he reason thus God is sufficient and able to work our saluation therefore there is no part of our saluation lefte to be wrought by the Passion of Christ For he séeth the reason to be a false reason and his reason is euen of the same fashion as both he and euery body besyde may sée Therfore to agrée al these Scriptures and Truethes together what could be more apte then as we be taught in the Schooles that there be thrée sortes of working causes Agens principale Instrumentum coniunctum Instrumentum separatum as in one writing I do write as the principall my hande doth write as the instrument vnited vnto my person and my penne doth write as the instrument separated from my person Eche of these working the whole worke and not parting it betweene them It is so in the working of our Saluation The Godhead worketh it principally The Manhoode of Christ and the workes of it namely his Passion worketh it as the arme of God The Sacramentes worke it as his instrumentes diuided from his person And so likewise his mysticall members the faithfull with their works do worke it as it were meanes and agents personally separated from him though mystically vnited vnto him And they part it not betwéene them but eche after his maner worketh the whole And that is it which the Scripture meaneth by helping Pur. 241. the word that your ignorance so much abhorreth when it so often saith that God helpeth both Christ Psa 17. and vs 2. Cor. 2. Heb. 13. And also that Christ helpeth vs. Heb. 2. But yet there is a difference in this similitude For God were sufficient to saue without the passion of Christ and that by baptisme yea and without baptisme also and other such instrumēts Likewise the passion of Christ were sufficient to saue though not without God yet without baptime and all other like But I can not write without my hande nor without a penne If then the Godhead or to vse your words the infinite and only cause of our saluation the meere mercy of God although it be so singularly omnisufficient doth not exclude neither Christes passion nor the working of it or merites of that man how doth the omnisufficiencie of Christes passion enforce you to exclude either his baptisme and his good workes in his members or also the working of his baptisme and the working or efficacy of those good works specially considering the Scripture is playne for al. For as it is written Pur. 97. That he hath washed vs from our sinnes by his bloud Apoc. 1. So likewise that he hath saued vs by the lauer of Regeneration Tit. 3. He clenseth his Church by the lauer of water Ephe. 5. Baptisme doth saue you 1. Pet. 3. So againe He hath made vs kings and priests to God Apoc. 1. If spiritual priestes ergo to offer our spirituall Sacrifices as our mortification Rom. 12. our almesdéedes Hebr. 13. both for our owne sinnes and for the sinnes of other because the externall Priest is ordeined to offer externall Sacrifices for sinnes both for him selfe and for the people Heb. 5. Which places I alleage rather then other as playne or playner because you were so blinde to alleage the selfe same for the contrarie to proue that Christ saueth vs by his blood alone as thogh the grace therof might not worke in his Sacraments and in his members workes Wherevpon also vpon the Angells saying Apo. 7. These are they that came out of great affliction Pur. 95. and haue washed their stoles and made them white in the bloud of the Lambe therefore they are in the presence of the throne of God you make this clarkly note and saye Marke here that they which came out of this great affliction were not purged thereby but that they washed and made white their garmentes in the bloud of the Lambe by whose righteousnes being clothed they may appeare in innocencie before the throne of God The text saith plainly that therefore they are before the throne to witte because they came out of such affliction so whited their stoles and yet this gloser taketh it awaye from the affliction whereas that whiting was nothing else but that affliction He forgate to do himselfe that which he so loftily would seacute eme to teache vs To conferre other places when there is a doubt for in another place of that booke it is expresly written thus Who so ouercommeth shal be clothed with white garmēts
whatsoeuer wee doe Also To geue to them that are newly Baptised a temper of mylke and hony and from the day of their Baptisme forbid dayly washing all the weeke after v. As touching Purgatorie and Praying for the dead But for Purgatorie and Praying for the dead because his whole booke is of that matter he is most profuse in charging that auncient true Church both fathers and people thereof and therfore I must stand the longer hereabout specially because the Reader shall sée therein as in a notable example to what shamefull confessions against them selues they are driuen whensoeuer they take in hand to answere throughly to any learned Catholike that hath throughly written of any controuersie And first I will shewe what he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times secondly of the whole Churche in some of those times thirdly of the glorious originall that they referre it vnto and lastly of the shamefull original or head that he referreth it vnto and them also for it j. What he saith of particular Doctors and their particular times for it And for the first to beginne alowe and so goe vpwarde Pur. 158. Bernard saith he is a very late writer and therefore his authoritie with vs is of small accompt in such cases as he followeth the common error of his time I take this in the way without our compasse yet not without good cause that conferring the times both within and without those first .600 yeares thou maist beholde how he chargeth both a like Well then to come nowe into our compasse Pur. 166. of S. Gregorie thus he saith When the proofe commeth you leape but 600. yeares from Christ to Gregories Dialogues from which time I will not denie but you may haue great store of such stuffe And not afore that time likewise Theodoret was an .100 yeares before S. Gregory Pur. 123. and what of him and his time Oecumenius and Theodoretus saith he were writers about that time when corruption of doctrine had greatly preuayled Againe before that time from the yeare .430 vp to .360 much about one time these did florish Augustine See M. Rishtons table Ambrose Hierome Paulinus Efrem Chrisostome Basil and Epiphanius And what of them and their time I haue alreadie rehearsed what he saith of S. Augustine vpon his booke De cura Pur. 315.317 that he woulde hold the common opinions receaued in his time and that he was willing to mainteine the superstition that was not throughly confirmed in his time 349. As againe If he had diligently examined the Common error of his time of prayer for the dead he would not so blindly haue defended it as he doth in that booke De cura pro mortuis agenda and else where And againe In celebration of the Sacrament 326. the superstitious error of that time allowed prayers for the dead generally and speciall remembrance of some in the prayers as of Monica Patritius the parents of S. Augustine 78. Againe But Augustine speaketh of the amending fire in the place alleaged by M. Allen. He doth so in deede but Augustine had no ground of that fire but in the common error of his time 161. And againe Concerning Augustine that error of Purgatorie was somewhat risely budded vp in his time Then of Paulinus 322. Purgatorie in those dayes was but euen a breeding and yet not throughly shaped out of prayers for the dead and such other superstitious ceremonies as were vsed about the departed How handsomly he agréeth here with him selfe I dissemble till * Contr. 46.47 the 11. Chapter Nowe of Ambrose and others Ambrose in deede alloweth prayer for the dead as it was a Common error in his time Pur. 320 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Beda Ephraim Ambrose Moreouer Chrysostome and Ieronym allowed prayers for the dead 194. 370. Then of Epiphanius Because the olde Liturgies vsed to make memorie of all sortes of men that were dead in Christ he expoundeth it according to the error of his time that this memorie was a prayer for the sinners for the iust as Patriarkes Prophets c a signification that they were inferior to Christ a simple cause why they should be remembred but this shift he is driuen vnto So S. Augustins exposition of the like practise 279.280 August euc 110. ad dul q. 4. saying When the sacrifices either of the Altar or of any kind of Almes be offered for all men departed and baptized for the very good they are Gratiarum actiones thanks giuing for them that be not very euill they are Propitiationes procurements of mercy for the very euil although they be no succor to them being dead yet they are certayne comforts to the liuing He condemneth it likewise in these words These matters stand al vpon a false supposition that any prayers are auailable for the dead which when it can not be proued it is in vaine to shew who taketh profite by them who not And so much of that time yea and of more then that time where he said before the times of Efrem and Ambrose Let vs now ascend to Constantinus Magnus his time who was the first full Christian Emperour and beganne his raigne soone after the yeare .300 Pur. 313. In the buriall of Constantinus sayth he there is mention of prayer for his soule according to the error of the time which was * Inough for any Christian man the time euen of the first Nicen Councell also and he buried in the Gréeke Church at Constantinople Long afore that againe about the yeare .200 florished Tertullian and Origines of that time so he saith after a certaine saying of Origens alleaged By this place it is manifest Pu. 249. that Origen whom notwithstanding here a little after we shall haue for the founder of Purgatorie and the East Churche in his time acknowledged no Purgatorie paines Againe This one testimonie of Origen shall testifie what the iudgement of the Greeke Church was concerning Purgatorie and prayers for the dead from the Apostles time vnto his dayes Pag. To Origens place I must answere in the ninth Chapter but nowe doe you say on I wotte well superstition in the Latine Church was somwhat forwardes in as much as there was the seat of Antichrist appointed to be set vp Where by the waye may be noted his For the .xii. Chapter ignorance being the foundation of his malice that he knoweth not all the old heresies to haue sprong of the Gréekes wherevpon also were holden in the Gréeke Church those first foure generall Councels against them and not of the Latines but contrawise the Romaine Church specially to be commended of the fathers Vinc. Lir. cap. ix Ruf. in expo Symb num iii. For maintaining alwayes most earnestly susceptae semel Religionis integritatem the puritie of
terme call the boulke of a thing As for the interior substance that question belonged to his Incarnation not to his assumption whereof nowe they talke Neither may any Logician thinke it straunge for the worde Substantia to be so vsed if he consider well howe the worde Corpus is vsed in the predicament of Quantitie though it be otherwise a species of Substantia But the mysticall likenes saith the Heretike chaungeth at the least his former calling For it is no more named that which it was tearmed before but it is called Body Therefore also the veritie in heauen must be called God and not Body Not so saith the Catholike It is named not onely Corpus Body but also panis vitae Bread of life And so likewise the body in heauen we name it Diuinum corpus viuisicum dominicum docentes non esse commune alicuius hominis c. The diuine and viuificall and Dominicall body teaching that it is not a common one of some mans but our Lordes Iesus Christ who is God and man Where you sée that suche a difference as he putteth betwene our common bodies and our Lord Gods body the like he putteth betwene common bread and this bread of life which therefore with him is Christes body vnder the forme of bread béeing thereby become as properly bread as coÌ„mon bread is bread and not the common substance of common bread which no man can say to be bread of life vj. About the Sacrament of Penance Now to approche nearer to Purgatorie about the Sacrament of Penance the Church of God saith foure things First that by the Priestes absolution the guilt of sinne is remitted and so the penitent reconciled to God and therefore pardoned the eternall payne of hell Secondly that after this remission for all that he may yet be in debt of some temporall payne Thirdly that he may and must pay the same temporall debt by workes of Satisfaction Fourthly that vpon good cause a Bishop may pardon it in parte and the Pope wholly Against these foure points Fulke alleageth saying Absolution Pur 168. But what auayleth this submission to Gods ministers when the Priest doth not by his Absolution take away one houres tormentes in Purgatorie as both M. Allen him selfe in effect confesseth and the master of Sentences also teacheth It auayleth to take away the eternall torments of hell Is that nothing with you When you be in them your saucie tong would giue all the world for the least touch of the fingers ende of Gods Priestes whom now in your hereticall pride you despise farre more then the riche Iewe did poore Lazarus Temporall debt remayning after Absolution Agaynst the second you alleage Augustine and Chrysostome euen against themselues for in the third chapter pag. 16. you confessed them both to stand for Purgatorie which implieth debt of payne after remission of sinnes But go to what saith Austine He saith quoth you of the deaths of Moises Aaron Pur. 42. Aug. in vet Test lib. 4. ca. 53 that they were signes of things to come not punishments of Gods displeasure This is your sinceritie His wordes immediatly afore be these When it is said to them Vt apponantur ad populum suuÌ„ that they should be gathered to their people It is manifest that they be not in the wrath of god which separateth from the peace of the holy eternall societie And thereby it is manifest that also their deathes were signes of things to come which things he there declareth and not punishments of Gods indignation You sée how precisely he speaketh to wit of Gods wrath indignation which punisheth by death to separate from his people for euer least he should haue spoken contrarie to the most manifest texte and to him selfe a litle before where he said that God foretolde them both quod ideo non intrarent that therefore they should not enter into the lande quia non eum sanctificauerunt because they doubted of his gifte that water could flowe of a Rocke And so is the text it selfe moste euidently Nu. 20.27 Deut. 32. You shall not bring this people into the lande but you shall dye because you did not beleeue me because you offended me because you trespassed against me And yet you will not graunt that for their sinne the fault béeing remitted they were punished by death These are they that will not stand agaynst euident Scripture Likewise about the example of Dauid you say Pur. 43. I would wish no better authoritie of the auntient Fathers then euen that which M. Allen him selfe alleageth out of Augustine contra Faustum li. 22. cap. 67. that the punishment of Dauid was flagelli paterni disciplina the chastisement of Gods fatherly scourge as he doth moste playnely declare the same in his booke De pec mer. ac rem li. 2. ca. 23. Is suche authoritie so good to proue that after the fault is forgiuen that is after the sonne is receiued againe into fauour no payne is owing Belike then you scourge your children that offend not aswel as them that haue offended and them also that haue offended you scourge not only after that you haue receiued them agayne into fauour but also after that you haue pardoned them all punishment Then surely are you as wise a father as a diuine No reasonable man but hearing of a fathers scourge would by by gather of it punishment for some offence where you gather the contrarie A fathers scourge ergo no punishmeÌ„t But your author S. Augustine doth not so In the chapter before commending his humility sub flagello dei 2. Reg. 16. vnder Gods scourge when Semei so diuelishly reuiled him he reporteth how Dauid said Meritis suis hoc redditum superno iudicio That this was executed vpon him by Gods iudgement for his desertes that is for the same matters of Vrias wherof he speketh in the place by you alleaged out of the Chapter following and saith that the Prophet Nathan told him quòd acceperit veniam that he had forgiuenes ad sempiternam quidem salutem as to euerlasting saluation But notwithstanding as God had threatened him flagelli paterni disciplina non est praetermissa The fatherly scourges chastisement was not omitted to the end that both for his confession of his sinne he might be deliuered euerlastingly and by such affliction he might be tried temporally Where also he commendeth him for not murmuring agaynst God as if he had sent him a false pardon of his sinnes Intelligebat enim c. For by his profound wisedome he vnderstood but that God was gratious to him confessing and repenting how worthy his sinnes were of euerlasting paynes for the which sinnes being beaten with temporal corrections he saw that vnto him continued the forgiuenes and Phisicke withall not neglected So expresly he saith that he was beaten for his sinnes for his deserts although withall it was Phisicke for him and prâ—bation Neither in the other place De pec mer. doth
so much that it is briefly and playnely so set foorth in the worde of God as I haue shewed in the eyght chapter answering all the textes that you peruert for Onely Scripture namely that text of an Angel from heauen pag. 110. And the place also of Saint Augustine chapter 9. pag. 181. Pur. 333. In so much that where you say therevpon He will not allowe Myracles and Visions for sufficient proofes without the authoritie of the Scriptures you do shamefully abuse your Reader for he saith expresly that whatsoeuer such things are done in the Catholike Church as he there also mentioneth many generally and some particularly therefore they are to be allowed because they are done in the Catholike Church And you graunt that these of S. Augustines reporting were done in the Catholike Church Ergo by S. Augustine euen in that place you must allow them and so condemne your owne Religion Motiue 26. 13.15 Honour of Crosses and of Saintes 14.16 Vertue of Crosses and of Saintes 17. Exorcismes 18. Destroying of Idolatrie In the next fiue Demaundes I report certaine argumentes made of the old Doctors in their bookes against the Paynims to proue that Christ is God and not their Idolles by certaine pointes of our Religion as the Soueraigne Honor both of his Crosse and of his Saintes and the miraculouse power not onely of them two but also of his Church in her ordinarie exorcismes requiring the Protestantes to helpe here the Paynims if they be eyther able or not ashamed and also in the next Demaund bidding them open their eyes at length and beholde that our Religion hath bene and is the bane of Idolatrie yea and those very pointes of our Religion which their peruerse blindnes counteth and calleth Idolatry it selfe To all this Fulke had nothing but like a Cuckow You haue not saith he destroyed Idolatry Pur. 460. but set vp Idolatrie Not waying what I tell him according to the prophets that we haue so throughly conuerted al Nations from Idolatrie that we haue made them forget also the names of their Idolles Motiue 41. Article 10. 19 Kinges My 19. Demaund is of the Christian Emperours and Kinges of whose conuersion together the Scripture speaketh expresly and of the conuersion of Nations The chiefe of them Fulke nameth here cap. 2. and confesseth with vs and for vs that they were of the true Church in the first 600. yeares yea and chalengeth them to haue bene of his Religion no lesse then we doe But what proufes doth he bring thereof Not one Neither doth he answere so much as any one of our proufes no not that which D. Allen alleageth Pur. 429. how Constantinus honored the Sentence of the Priestes Councell at Nice tanquam a deo prolatam as pronounced of God Pur. 313. Ruff. li. 1. ca. 5. yea he is faine to confesse that in the burial of Constantinus him selfe the very first Christian Emperour Eus in vita Const li. 4 c. 58.59.60.66.71 there was prayer for his soule according to the errour of the time being the time of the first Nicen Counsell In Eusebius is much more Sacrifice also for his soule with the intercession of the Apostles in whose honor it was offered at their Relikes in their Temple Pur. 312. and all by the procurement of ConstaÌ„tinus him self Again That the Emperour Theodosius Iunior prayed for his fathers and mothers soules Arcadius and Eudoria But the storie saith not quoth he that he prayed to S. Chrysostome for them as M. Allen thinketh The storie is Theodorets and his words are these Hist Trip. li. 10. c. 26. ex Theo. l. 5. c. 35.36 Pur. 222.226 Amb. super obitum Theod. And he setting his face and eyes vpon the shrine of that holy man made supplications for his parentes and prayed him vt veniam illis tribueret that he would pardon them the iniuries which of ignorance they had done him in working his death Againe as touching Honorius of the west brother to the said Arcadius of the East wher S. Ambrose saith Eius principis Theodosij Senioris et proximè conclamauimus Obitum et nunc quadragesimum diem celebramus assistente sacris Altaribus Honorio Principe We finished of late vpon the seuenth day this Princes Obite Theodotius Senior their father and now we celebrate his fourtyth day our Prince Honorius standing by the sacred Altares To this Fulke had nothing but partly to reprehend the thing as superstitious both in the Bishop and in the Emperour partely to inueigh blindly against D. Allens translation For Ambrose speaketh not he saith of his fortyth dayes minde but of the solemnitie of his funerall kept 40. dayes togeather As though the fortyth day is not one of the fortie and yet also how playnly he expresseth the singulare solemnitie of the fortyth day as of the Obite before saying And now we celebrate his fortyth day whereas others vse to kepe the Thirde day and the Thirtith which was and is the vse of the Romane Church But the Church of Millaine kept the seuenth day and the fortyth Al this considered who seeth not that aswel the Catholike Emperours within the first 600. yeres be against him as the others of later tymes and therefore that it is but a cast of his facing deceiuing arte that he saith Ar. 33.51 Before the generall Defection and Reuelation of Antichrist it is an easye matter to name you the Emperours and Princes of our Church as Constantine the great See the impudent Heretike them vvhâ—m he condemned before Iouinianus Valentinianus Theodosius Arcadius Honorius Martianus Iustinianus Mauritius diuers other But when the Kings of the earth had coÌ„mitted fornicatioÌ„ with the great Whore of BabyloÌ„ as the holy ghost foresheweth Apo. 17. 18. it is no preiudice to our cause if we cannot shew any of them that haue maintained our Religion Your malicious and ignoraÌ„t setting of the Defection Antichrists reuealing at the yere 607 I haue coÌ„futed cap. 8. pag. 126. by the Scriptures most manifestly But that you poynt the same time for the Kinges of the earth to haue fornicated with her your ignorance and malice surmounteth it selfe as it is euideÌ„t by that which I say there pag. 126. that Babylon is this world froÌ„ the beginning to the ending thereof and called a Whore for that it hath such alluremeÌ„ts wherevpon the same S. Iohn exhorteth vs in his Epistle 1. Ioan 2. and saith Loue not the world nor the thinges that are in the world The world is transitorie and also the coÌ„cupiscence of it And therefore in his Apocalipse he maketh her to sit vpon all the earthly worldly Kinges that euer tooke or shall take her parte against Gods Church But your blindnes could finde no earthly Kinges in the world but within these last 900. yeares yea none to be the Kinges of the Earth but those that be the Kinges of the Church and their fornicatioÌ„ to consist In humbly
of the same place may be deduced also many other contradictions in that among the same chiefe poyntes and foundation he reckoneth also the honor of God the offices of Christ the fruites of his passion the authoritie of Gods worde Images saying that the Fathers in these also were against vs and therefore not of our Church and yet graunteth that the same Fathers helde with vs euen those very poyntes which in vs he counteth contrarie vnto these and to the foundation to witte Honoring of Relikes Inuocation of Saintes Merites Traditions vnwritten Images of the Crosse as by his owne words appeareth here cap. 3. and 7. And them so earnestly also that they condemned the contraries for Heresies Yet saith Fulke Pur. 412. Whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately he is an Heretike 40 Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. We know that Luther did not obstinately and maliciousâ—y erre in any article of faith concerning the substance of Religion Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. Luther Caluine and Bucer shall come with Christ to iudge the world Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament differ onely in Ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Contra What Flaccius or any such as he is hath said Pur. 147. neither do I know neither do I regard let them answere for them selues But whereas you charge M. Caluine c. 41 There is neuer Heresie Ar. 86. but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Therefore onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience Contra Pur. 367. The Church is the stay of trueth If that argument of the Church without triall which is the Church might take place it woulde serue you both for a sworde and a buckler The Church saith it and we or they of the first 600. yeres for that néedeth no triall you confesse it your selfe are the Church Therfore it is true 42 Among the arguments that Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians one though the feeblest of an hundred is Pur. 349.367 that their Heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church Contra All other persuasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scripture to trye the faith and doctrine of the Church namely in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes the heresie of the Pelagians Where also he contradicteth him selfe againe in shewing the reason why he argued against the Donatistes of onely Scripture but against the Pelagians of the Churches prayers also The Pelagians graunted them to be of the Church that so prayed And therfore when Augustine had to do with the Donatistes that chalenged the Church vnto them selues he setteth all other trials aside and prouoketh onely to the Scriptures 43 a Pur. 432. We stand for authoritie only to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures Contra b Ar. 9.5 10 The ground that we haue to persuade vs of the authoritie of gods booke is because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirit for the authoritie of that booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages b Ar. 9.5 10 The church of Christ hath a iudgement to discerne the word of god from the writings of mem b Ar. 9.5 10 The primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God we allow beleeue c Pur. 364. â—31 Supra ca. 7. pag. 89. Ar. 21.39.42 You should bring a great preiudice against vs and passing well proued for the credite of your cause and the discredite of ours if you could bring the consent and practise of the primitiue pure Church for the space of 100. yeres after Christ or some thing out of any Authentical writer which liued within one hundred yeres after the Apostles age Pur. 362. 44 S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. declareth without cooler or couerture the onely right order of ministration Contra in the nexte line I know the Papistes will flie to those wordes of the Apostle The rest I will set in order when I come That is manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and therefore say we of the order of ministration Pu. 438. 45 The old Doctors neuer heard Purgatory named nor prayer for the dead Contra About S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented Pur. 356. And long afore that also Montanus had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes c. Here cap. 3. pag. 23. And yet againe Before Chrysostomes time it was but a blind error without a head Pur. 54. Pur. 161. 46 In S. Augustines time Sathan was but then laying his foundation of Purgatorie Contra That error of Purgatorie was somewhat rifely budded vp in his time And specially here cap. 3. pag. 14. saying And this I thinke is the right pedigree of prayers for the dead and Purgatorie where he putteth the very last generation of it to haue bene in S. Augustines time and the foundation long afore Christes time Pur. 242.243 47 M. Allen affirmeth that after mens departure the representation of almes by such as receiued it shall moue God excedingly to mercy O vaine imagination for which he hath neither Scripture nor Doctor Pur. 236. â—37 Contra Chrysostome alloweth rather almes that men geue before their death or bequeath in their Testament because it is a worke of their owne then that almes which other men geue for them howbeit also such almes are auayleable for the dead he saith 48 Here cap. 5. pag. 31. Fulke saith that The auncient Doctors did hold the â—oundation Contra cap. 4. pag. 28. He saith The thyrd Councell of Carthage did define that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne and God the holy Ghost 49 Here cap 8. pag. 127. he sayth that the iust of the old Testament went not to Limbus Patrum after their death but to heauen immediately Contra Pur. 183. The fierie and shaking sword that was set to exclude man from Paradise was taken away by the death of Christ when he opened Paradise yea the Kingdome of Heauen whereof Paradise was but a Sacrament vnto all beleeuers so that the Penitent theefe had passage into Paradise 50 Who so denyeth the authoritie of the holy Scriptures Pur. 214. therby bewraieth him selfe to be an Heretike Contra I say not this here cap. 9. pag. 170. Pur. 218. Ar. 10. that Eusebius was not accompted an Heretike to excuse them that doubt of the Epistle of S. Iames. As Martin Luther and Illyricus for I am persuaded that they are more curious then wise in so doing Loe here are 50. Contradictions and diuers of them more then single ones Yet doe I find in him many others besides these which I omit for breuities sake and because these may suffice to shew what a writer he is and what a Religion it is that agréeth no better he
speake All is done still as it was in the Primitiue Church with the selfe same authoritie and with the same affection and discretion if the Iudges doe not swarue from the Churches Lawes 43. Succession Motiue 22. Article 8. Consequently in the next Demaund I say that the true Church must be descended by lineall and continuall Succession from the Apostles and that our Church is so descended and that the Protestantes Church is not so descended About this Fulke doth many wayes contradict himselfe as I will shewe in the next Chapter because he can not tell what to say vnto it Yet to helpe him as much as may be and as I doe vse euery where to frame his arguments to his purpose and to bring them into some order He may say two things first that they may haue the true Church although they haue not Succession secondly that we may lacke the true Church although we haue succession To the first he may referre these words of his owne vnto D. Allen Ar. 26. You are neuer able to proue that any suche orderly Succession according to persons and places was promised to the Church that we should shewe you the performance thereof in our Church Whether that can not be proued my first Demaund here will shew which declareth that S. Augustine hath already proued out of the Scriptures for vs that the Churche should beginne at Hierusalem and from thence grow ouer all Nations continually to the worldes ende as also with our eyes we sée that vnto this our time it hath done And euen the place which you goe about to answere proueth it playnly Continuall Succession of persons in the ministerie I say with D. Allen euen vntill Christes comming agayne Ephe. 4. Christus ascendens c. Christ ascending gaue giftes to men some to be Apostles some Euangelistes some Prophets some Pastors and Teachers to the completing of the holy for the worke of ministerie for the building of the body of Christ Donec occurramus omnes c. Vntill we meete all in the vnitie of faith and of the knowledge of the Sonne of God in a perfect man in the measure of the age plenitudinis Christi of the fulnesse of Christ that is Ephe. 1. of his Church He sayth so expresly vntill the finishing of the Church But that you would not sée you thought better to cauill and say The offices of the Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes were not appoynted to continue alwayes in the Churche but for a time vntill the Gospell had taken roote in the world Why doe you not say the like of the other two Pastors and Teachers if they at the least were appointed to continue alwayes you sée a Succession of Persons And how can Saint Paules saying be otherwise verifyed vnlesse some of those fiue shoulde alwayes continue if not all as the wordes doe rather import For you séeme to deceyue your selfe by thinking that none are Apostles but the twelue none Euangelistes but the foure none Prophetes but the foretellers of things to come Whereas in déede all the Successors of Saint Peter are Apostles as I noted in the .28 Demaund and also whosoeuer else be the first conuerters of any Nation and all the expounders of the Euangelistes and Prophetes are Euangelistes and Prophets which you will not denie if you haue any skill in vnderstanding the Scriptures No difference being betwéene these offices in the beginning and nowe but onely that then they were giuen by miracle and now by order As touching the second you graunt our Church to haue such continuall Succession and inferre therevpon Ergo it is not the true Church here Cap. 2. Pag. 5. because the true Church should at some time or other be driuen out of sight Wherevnto I haue answered Cap. 8. Pag. 144. shewing that you doe fouly abuse the Scripture to that false conclusion and namely that the time of the Churches flying into the wildernesse is not yet come Againe you argue If it be sufficient Ar. 27. or any thing worth to rehearse the names of them that haue orderly succeeded in all ages in the Bishops Sees in an outward face of the Church the Greeke Churche is able to name as many as the Latine Church and in as orderly succession What of that but onely this that they therfore may better claime the Churche then you And yet in trueth these Hereticall and Schismaticall Gréekes can no more shew Succession then you For your false Bishops are now in the Sées of C. Pole of B. Bonner of B. Therlebie c. and yet I trowe you will not thereby claime Succession So these later Gréekes haue not Succession but from them onely who beganne this Separation of theirs and their heresies about the H. Ghostes procéeding c. For in Saint Gregories time whiche is ynough they were in vnitie Nam de Constantinopolitana Ecclesia Greg. li. 7. Epist 63. quis eam dubitet Sedi Apostolicae esse subiectam c. For as touching the Churche of Constantinople saieth he who can doubt that it is subiect to the See Apostolike which thing both our most clement Lord the Emperour and our brother Eusebius Bishop of the same Citie doe dayly professe 44. Apostolike Church Motiue 23. Next vnto this I say that it is we not the Protestants which beleue the Apostolike church because we beleue the Romane church which hath the See of the two most glorious Apostles S. Peter S. Paul which was ment by those Fathers who in their Coūcell added to the article of the créede the word Apostolike therby to specify the better the Catholike Church against such heretikes as durst challenge to themselues the Catholike Church but had no colour to challenge the Romane Church namely that Bishop of Rome which sat in the Apostles chaire that is which orderly and canonically succéeded the Apostles For otherwise the Donatistes and some others we know had their mocke bishop at Rome in a corner whom they sent thither out of other countries to lurke there for a stale to their simple people which thing among others might cause the Fathers in their exposition of the Créede to say rather the Apostolike Church then the Romane Church Ar. 96. Vnto this Fulke hath two shiftes First he saith You are neuer able to answere the arguments that are brought to proue that Peter was neuer Bishop at Rome And then where is al your bragges of Apostolike Sea and succession c Sée here cap. 2. pag. 3. how he confesseth that S. Augustine and many other of the Fathers did likewise alleadge against Heretikes the succession of that Apostolike Sée And therfore consider to whom and for whom it is that now he saith And then where is all your bragges c I would not desire a better cause to discredite quite these absurd Protestantes then that they deny S. Peter to haue béen euer at Rome For who knoweth not that all the auncient writers are against them therein
and that no man for much more then a .1000 yeares together after the Apostles time either denied it Roff. in li. Aâ— Petrus fuerit Romae con Vellaeum Cochl de Petro Roma coÌ„ Velli Wald. li 2. Doct. ar 1. c. 7. tom 3. ca. 129. Cop. dial 1 ca. 15. or doubted of it Besides sundrie most manifest argumentes to proue it whereas the Wickleâ—istes and Protestants arguments against it which he saith can neuer be answered are the most ridiculous things that euer man heard Though Fulke bring not forth any one of them yet I haue answered the very best of them here Pag. 237. And most excellent authors among the Catholikes haue alreadie written whole Bookes of this question as Roffensis Cochleus besides Thomas Waldensis and many others that haue chapters of it in other bookes Howbeit the scripture also it selfe is plaine ynough in it if one be not too contentious where S. Peter himselfe doth say that he wrote his first Epistle in Rome calling it Babylon as I noted cap. 9. pag. 156. And for S. Paules being there which is ynough to proue the Apostolike Sée of that Church the Actes are most euident Act. 28. In so much that also Fulke himself after this maner to contrarie him selfe doth confesse here cap. 2. pag. 3. that the Churche of Rome was founded by the Apostles In which place also he graunteth that in the Fathers time it was an Apostolike Church howsoeuer now he would draw his necke out of the coller by denying Peter to haue bene there But be it that Peter was there he saith in his 2. shift except you proue Succession of doctrine and faith aswel as Succession of men your Succession is not worth a straw Yes sir in prouing the Succession of men onely we doe as much as the Fathers did vnlesse you will say that their doing also was not worth a strawe For a Succession of men there must be the Scriptures are plaine therein as the Fathers shewe But no companie sauing the Romanes companie can shew a Succession of men Therefore no companie but theirs is the Church In so much also that the Scripture and Fathers together doe say of that Succession and of that onely Ipsa est Petra Mat. 16. Aug. in Ps coÌ„t partem Donati quam non vincunt superbae inferorum portae That is the Rocke which the proude gates of hell doe not ouercome And your selfe with your master Caluin doe confesse here cap. 2. pag. 3. that it continued in the Apostles faith and sounde doctrine for the first .400 yeares which is ynough against you because you also confesse cap. 3. that within the same time in it was praying for the dead and many other pointes against your doctrine 45. Chaunging Moti 24. Article 11. Dem. 14. But that you shoulde not haue any such euasion I made my next Demaund expresly of that matter noting that the Romane Churche as it hath succession of men so also hath succession of doctrine and faith neuer to this day chaunging the doctrine and faith which it receiued of the Apostles Now what haue you to the contrarie Of S. Victor who excommunicated the Asians Ar. 47. I haue answered Dem. 28. that it is nothing else but your blasphemous audacitie to say that he chaunged from his predecessors and vsurped authoritie in that doing Touching also S. Boniface the third against whom you alleage the saying of his Predecessor S. Gregorie None of my Predecessors would vse this prophane title to call himselfe Vniuersall Bishop I haue answered Cap. 3. pag. 24. that you belie S. Boniface For neither he nor any since him no more then they before him vsed that title but the cleane contrarie title Seruus seruorum dei which S. Gregorie of humilitie did begin Thirdly you say that the same Gregorie as Hulderichus Bishop of Auspurge doth testifie was the first that compelled Priestes to liue vnmaried Which afterward when he saw the inconuenience he reuoked And so you destroy your own ensample for if he reuoked it then is not he one that made a chaunge from his Fathers faith You that will not beléeue all Antiquitie saying that Peter was at Rome will yet haue no man doubt but S. Gregorie saw such inconuenience in so shorte a time that six thousand Infantes were straight begotten by the fornications of onely Subdeacons yea and cruelly murdered yea and all their heades caste into one certaine poole and therefore found and taken vp by tale Witnesse of all this one that being Bishop of Auspurge wrote to Pope Nicolas the first who was dead 56. Cop. dial 1 cap. 22. yeares before this man was made Bishop He that will Laugh more at large at the fable let him reade M. Cope As for Priestes Mariage I noted cap. 3. pag. 12. cap. 6. pag. 43. How they counted Iouinian an Heretike and a monster long before S. Gregories time for allowing of it These are all the chaunges that you note in the Church of Rome vnlesse I must count this another where you note D. Allen to confesse Pur. 68. that the old vsage of the Church was first to set satisfaction and then to absolue though now of late to absolue before satisfaction hath bene more vsed Both maners haue bene alwayes vsed but the first of old more then the second and the second of late more then the first This saith D. Allen and it is euident to them that are skilfull in Antiquitie namely such as did not make their confession before they fell sore sicke they were absolued incontinently and did their Penaunce afterwards if they recouered Hereticall Bishoppes and Priestes were oftentimes receyued vppon cause by onely absolution without all satisfaction yea and permitted to continue in their honours also The Churches care both then and now was and is to haue all sinners truely contrite before absolution and that is sufficient before God Neuerthelesse suche as haue offended afore also are caused to doe their duetie accordingly A straunge matter that these Heretikes who haue quite taken all away should controll the Church although she also had taken all away howe muche lesse considering that she hath not taken any piece away but onely putteth that more often to the second place whiche she was wonte as it is a thing indifferent to put in the firste place more often and that according to her power to edifie and not to destroye seeing the people now so careles that rather then they will doe suche penaunce for satisfaction they will not come to confession and so dying without absolution goe to damnation and seeing withall that whereas satisfaction is no satisfaction vnlesse the partie bee firste in grace his owne contrition before was alone but nowe it hath the helpe of absolution whiche of it selfe conferreth grace that nowe his satisfaction muche more probablye then before is not baren And therefore muche lesse satisfaction nowe like to be more auayleable then muche more before and