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A07698 A dyaloge of syr Thomas More knyghte: one of the counsayll of oure souerayne lorde the kyng [and] chauncellour of hys duchy of Lancaster. Wherin be treated dyuers maters, as of the veneration [and] worshyp of ymages [and] relyques, prayng to sayntys, [and] goyng o[n] pylgrymage. Wyth many othere thyngys touching the pestylent sect of Luther and Tyndale, by the tone bygone in Sarony, and by tother laboryed to be brought in to Englond; Dyaloge of dyvers maters More, Thomas, Sir, Saint, 1478-1535. 1529 (1529) STC 18084; ESTC S104969 282,100 256

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fayned yet were that no cause to mystrust the remnaunt But be yt that amonge so many myracles as be dayly told wrytē dō at diuers pilgrimagꝭ betwē which myracles and other why ye put a deference we shall as I sayd before knowe ferther your mīd hereafter And be it also that of such as long haue be reputed and styll taken for trew your selfe vndoutedly knewe sum for very false wold ye therfore thynk that among all y● remnaūt ther were neuer one trew what if ye fynd som fayer womā paynted whose colour ye had went wer naturall wyll ye neuer after beleue that any woman in the worlde hath a fayre colour of her selfe If ye fynd som fals flatterers that long semed frēdly wyll ye take euer after all y● world for suche If some proue starke ipochrytes whō the world wold haue sworn for good godly mē shall we therfore mystruste all other for theyr sake and wene there wer none good at all By my troth q he I rode ons ī good cōpany to say y● troth for good cōpany to walsynghā in pylg●●mage where a good felows hors so fell in haltynge that he was fayne to hyer a nother and let hym goo lose whych was so lene and so pore and hallted so sore y● empty as he was he could scant kepe fote with vs. And when we had went we shuld haue left hī behīde sodenly he spyed a mare and forth he lymped on thre legges so lustely that hys masters hors wyth foure fete coud ●●āt ouer take hī But whā he caught hym cam agayne he sware in greate anger all the othys he myght swere that he wold trust haltyng syr Thomas the worse whyle he lyuyd what was that haltīg syr thomas quod I. Mary q he theyr paryshe preste as he told vs as lene and as pore and as haltynge as hys horse and as holy to But syn he wold whyle he lyued mystrust y● haltīg preste for hys haltīg horse yf I fynde an holy horeson halte in ypochrysye I shall not fayle while I lyue to trust all hys felowes the worse well quod I ye speke merely but I wot well ye wyll do better what so euer ye lay Nor I ā sure though ye se sum whyte safyre or byrall soo well counterfete and so set in a ryng that a ryght goode iueller wyll take it for a dyomound yet wyl ye not dowt for all that but that there be in many other ryngꝭ all redy set right diamoūtꝭ in dede Nor ye wyll not mystrust saīt Peter for iudas Nor thoughe the iues were many so noughty that they put chryst to deth● yet ye be wyser I wot● well than the gētyllwomā was whych in talkyng ones wyth my father when she harde saye that our lady was a iewe fyrst could not beleue it but sayd what ye mok I wylle I pray you tell trouth And when it was so fully affermede y● she at last beleued it was she a Iewe quod she so helpe me god and halydō I shall loue her y● worse whyle I lyue I ā sure ye wyll not do so nor mistrust all for some neyther men nor myracles The .xvi. chapiter ¶ Thauthor sheweth that who soo wold enquere shuld sone fynd that at pylgrymagys bene dayly many gret vndowted myracles wroght and well knowen And specyally he speketh of the great open myracle shewed at our lady of Ippyl wyche of late vppon the doughter of Syr Roger went worthe knyghte ANd as for y● poynt y● we spake of concernyng myracles done in our dayes at diuerse imagys where these pylgrymagys be yet could I tell you some such done so openly so farre from all cause of suspycyō and therto testyfyed in such suf●ycyent wyse that he myght seme allmost madde that her●g y● hole mater will mystrust the miracles Amonge whych I durste boldelye tell you for one the wōderfull work of god that was wtyn these few yeres wroght in the house of a ryghte worshypfull knyght syr Roger wentworth vppon dyuerse of hys chyldern and specyally one of hys doughters a very fayr yōge gentyll woman of .xii. yeres of age in maruelouse maner vexyd turmē●yd by our gostely ennemy the deuyll her mynd alienated rauyng with dyspisyng and blasphemye of god and hatered of all halowed thyngꝭ wyth knowleg and perse●uynge of the halowed from the vnhalowed all were she nothyng warned therof And after that moued in her owne mynde and moneshed by the wyll of god to goo to oure ladye of Ippyswyche In the waye of whyche pylgrymage she prophesyed and tolde many thyngys done and sayed at the same tyme ī other placys whyche were proued trew and many thyngꝭ sayed lyyng in her traunce of such wysoome and letnyng that ryght connyng men hyghly marueyled to here of so yong an vnlernede mayden whan her selfe wyst not what she sayde such thyngys vttred and spoken as well lerned men myght haue myssed wyth a lōge study and fynally beyng brought and layed before the ymage of our blessed lady ●as there ī the syght of many worshypfull people so greuouslye turmentede and in face eyene loke countenaūce so grysely chaunged wyth her mouth drawen asyde and her eyene leyd oute vppon her chekys that yt was a terryble syght to behold And after many maruelouse thyngys at the sāe tyme shewed vppon dyuers parssones by the deuyll thorow goddys sufferaūce as well all the remnant as the mayden herself in the presence of all the cūpany restored to they re goode state perfitely cured sodēly And ī thys matter no pretexte of beggyng no suspycyō of faynyng no possybylyte of counterfettyng no symplenesse ī the seers her father and mother ryght honorable and rych sore abashed to se such chaunces in they re chylderne the wytnes grete noūber and many of grete worshyp wysdome and good experyēce the mayd her self to yong to fayne and the fashyon it self to straūge for any man to fayne And the ende of the matter vertuouse the vyrgyne so mouyd ī her mynde with the myracle that she forthwyth for ought her father could do forsoke the world and professed relygyon in a very good and godly cumpanye at the mynoresse where she hath lyued well graciously euer syns The .xvii. chapiter ¶ The messenger laythe forth obieccyons agaynst myracles dōe at pylgrymagys of whych he confessyth many to be trew but he layth causes and reasōs wherby he seyth that many men be moued to beleue and thynk that those myracles that be don there be dōe by the deuyll to sett our hartꝭ vppon ydolatry by the worshyppyng of ymagys in stede of god BUt nowe albe yt as I sayed that I myght allege you thys myracle and proue yt you in such wyse that I wot well ye wold be as far owte of all dowte therof as ye wold be depe in the maruayle of the myracle And peraduēture dyuerse other could I shewe you done of late at dyuerse pylgrymagys and proue them well to yet wold I
fayn fyrst here of you what dystynccyon and dyfferēce ys that that ye make and wherfore ye make it bitwene the myracles don of olde tyme and these that be now adayes don at these pylgrymagys Syr quod he sum what a lytle I towched yt in the begynnyng made in maner a glaunce therat But loth wer I to hyt yt wyth a full shot and a sharpe as I haue sene sum wyth suche reasons cleeue the pryk in twayne that they semyd to bere ouer the but And all●whych reasons I wolde be loth in so sore maner to allege lest I myght happely gyue you sū occasyō to thynk that eyther I set to sumwhat of myne owne or elles at the leste wyse lyked well that syde and wer a fauorer of the factyō Nay nay quod I fere not that hardely for neyther ā I so suspecyouse to mystrust that one thynkyth euyll because he defēdeth the worse parte well by way of argumente and reasonyng And also I truste that all theyr shottꝭ shal be so far to feble to bere ouer that but that few of them shall towche the mark many to faynt to perce the paper And sum to hygh and sum to shorte And some walk to wyde of that but by a bow And therfore I requyre you spare not to bryng forth all that euer ye haue harde ●or that ye thynke may be sayde in the mater ¶ Syr quod he syth ye can here yt so indyfferently I shall not spare to speke it And suerly to begynne wtall that I thynk trew I wyll not fayle to confesse For albe yt that I haue long stycked wyth you to wythstand any credence to be geuē to myracles dō now adayes in whych I haue moch the lēget stykked bycause of sum whom I haue knowē ere thys so farre from the byleue of any myracles at all that in good feyth they put me half ī dowte whether they beleue that there wer god at all if they du●st for drede shame haue sayd all that they semed to thynk yet to saye the truth I neuer hard any thyng sayd so sore therin that euer moued me to thynk that any reason wold bere the importune mystrust of them that amōg so many ā open myracle as ys dayly in dyuers placys doon wolde wene that none at all wer trew But veryly as I begōne a lytell to touche in the begynnynge whether these myracles be made by god for good sayntys or by the deuyll for oure deceyt and delusyon albeyt I beleue euer wyll as the chyrch doth yet sum men among sum such thyngꝭ say therin that I am dryuē to doo as I do in other articlys of the fayth lene fast vnto belefe for any reason that I fynde to make them āswere wyth For fyrst they take for a groūde that the deuill may do myracles Or yf we lyst not to suffer thē callyd by that name the mater shal be therby nothyng amēded for yf we wyll haue only called by the name of myracles thyngys by god dō aboue nature yet wyll we not deny but that god sufferethe the deuyll to worke wonders whych the people cā not dyscerne from myracles And therfore whē they se them myracles shall they call them and for myracles shall they take them Now syth yt so is that the deuyll may do suche thyngys whereby shall we be ●ure that god doth them And syth the dyuyll may do theym we be not sure that god doth them why may not we aswell beleue that the dyuyll doth them ¶ Mary sayd I ye told me that ye sett noght by Logyk but now ye play the Logycyen out ryghte Howe be yt that argument men may torne ō the tother syde saye that syth god may do them mych beter than the dyuyll and we be not sure that the dyuyll doth thē why shulde we not rather beleeue that god doth them whych may do them beter And myche more reason yt ys where a wonderfull work ys wrought there to ascrybe yt to god the master of all mastryes rathere than the dyuyll that can do nothyng but by su●fraunce excepte we se some cause that cānot suffer that work to be rekenyd goddys ¶ well q he than is yt reason that we shew you sum such cause It ys quod he cause ynoughe in that we se that god hath yn scrypture forboden suche ymagry and that vnder great maledyccyon As yn the law Non facies tib● sculptile And ī the psalme In exitu israel de egipto where he furst by the mouth of the Prophete dyscrybyth the folye of suche as worshyppyth those imagys that hath crys and cannot here handis and can not feele fete and cannot go mouth cannot speke All whych absurdytees vnresonable folyes apperyth aswell in the worshyp of our imagꝭ as in the panyms idollys And after he shewith the maledyccion that shall fall theruppō Seynge lyke mote they be to them all such as make them all suche as puttyth theyr trust in thē And forthwyth he declareth in whom good men haue theyr trust and the profyte that procedyth theruppon saynge Domus israel sperauit in domino adiutor eorū et ꝓtector eorumest The house of Israell hath put they re truste in our lorde the helper and defender of thē ys he Now when the wordys of god be clere open and playne vppon thys syde what reason ys yt to beleue the cōmentys and glosys of menne wherewyth ye wold wynde owt agaynst she trew textys of god what shulde we gyue credens to thēnsample of mēnys doyngꝭ ageynst the playne commaūdement of goddys wrytyngys And whē that ōly chryste ys our sauyour and our medyatour to bryng our nature agayne to god and our oonly proctour and aduocat afore hys father and may helpe vs best and will helpe vs most what shall we make eyther our lady or ēny other creature our aduocat or praye to thē whych of lykelyhod here vs not For there can none of them be present at so many placys at onys as they be callede vppon and if they were yet arte they no nere vs then god hī selfe nor so fayne wold that we dyd well as he that dyed for vs. and therfore whā we not only doo thē reuerence whyche I were contēt wer done them for goddes sake as ye sayd before but also praye to them we doo chryste and god great Iniury For yf we pray to thē as medytours aduocatꝭ for vs we take fro Cryste hys office gyue yt them yf we aske helpe helth of them then make we thē playne god dys and betake to them the power of the godhed For only god ys yt that geuethe all good as wytnessyth saynt Iames. Euery good and very perfyte gyfte cōmeth from aboue descendyng from the father of lyghtys And suerly yf we cōsyder how we behaue vs to thē though ye saye that all the honoure geuen to sayntes redoundeth vnto god syth yt ys doon as ye saye not for theyr
the contrary of suche thyngis as those vndowted holy doctours taught ¶ I meruayle thē quod your frend why they lyue so vertuously fastynge gyuynge they re good in almoyse wyth other vertuouse exercyse both in forberynge the pleasure of the worlde and also takynge payne in they re bodyes ¶ To thys mater quod I our fauyoure hym self answereth where he sayth in the gospell of Mathew Attendite a falsis prophetis qui veniunt ad vos in vestimentis ouium intrinsecus a●tem sunt lupi rapaces Beware of the false prophetys that come to you in the clothynge of shepe and yet wythinforth ben rauenouse wolues For syth that they by false doctryne labour to deuour and destroye mē soulys we be sure ynough that wolues they be in dede how ●hepyshely so euer they loke And ypocrytys must they nedys be syth they be so denounced by goddys owne mouthe And well may we perceyue that he meneth not well whā he techeth euyll And that euyll he techeth we may wel wyt whā we se hym teche the cōtrary of the whych god hath all redy taught hys hole chyrch In which hath bē so many holy fathers so many cūning doctours and so many blessyd martyrs that so haue byddē by the faythe to y● dethe y● yt were a ●●enesye yf we wold n●w agaynst so many such byleue eny false heretyque faynynge ypocryte techynge vs the cōtrary ¶ Of those holy fathers of our fayth whom they re bokys sheweth to haue byleued vs we byleue we haue sene and knowen theyr vertuouse lyfe well proued by they re blyssed ende in whych our lorde hath testyfyed by many a myracle that theyr fayth theyr lyuys hath lyked him But now haue we yet sene eny such thyng by eny of these heretyques Nor yet so myche as eny const●unce in theyr doctryne but yf they were onys found out and examyned we se theym alwaye fyrst redy to lye and forswere thē self yf the wyl serue And whā that wyl not helpe but theyr falsed and periury proued in they re facys than redy be they to abiure forsake it as long as that may saue theyr lyuys Nor neuer yet foūd I eny one but he wold onys abiure though he neuer entended to k●pe his othe So holy wold he be and so wyse therwith that he wolde wyth periury kyll hys sowle for euer to saue hys body for a whyle● For comenly sone after suche as so do shewe theym selfe agayne god of hys ryghtuousnes not suffryng y● theyr fals forswering shold stand thē lōg in stede ¶ The .xvii. chapyter ¶ The author sheweth y● som which be Lutheranys seme to lyue holyly and therfore be byleued had in estymacyon entende a ferther purpose them they pretend whych they wyll well shewe yf they may onys fynde theyr tyme. ANd as for they re lyuynge the good apparence wherof ys the thyng that most blyndeth vs as mych suretye as we haue of the godly lyfe of our olde holy fathers wherof y● world hath wryten and god h●th borne wytnes by many grete myracles shewed for theyr sakes as vncertayn be we of these men wyth whom we neyther he alway pre●ent and 〈◊〉 also can tell what abomynacyōs they may do to sū of thē secretely Nor yet cā know theyr entēt purpose that they appoynt vpō and the cause for whyche they be for the whyle cōtent to take all the payne ¶ Uery certayne ys yt the pryde ys one cause wherfore they take the payn For p●yde ys as saynt Austeyn sayth the very mother of all heresyes For of an hygh mynd to be in the lykīg of the peple ● hath cūmyn in to many men so mad a mynde so frantyque that they haue not rought what payn they toke wtout eny other recōpence or rewarde but only the fond plesure delyte that thē self cōceyue in theyr harte whā they thynke what worshyp the peple talketh of them And they be the deuyls martyrs takīg myche payn for his pleasure his very a pys whō he maketh to tūble thorow the hope of the holynes that putteth thē to payne with out fruyte And yet oftētymes maketh thē mys●e of the vayn prayse wherof only they be so prowde For whyle they delyte to thynke how they be take for holy they be many tymys wel perceyued and taken for ypocrytys as they be ¶ But suche ys thys cursed affeccyō of pryde and so depe setteth in the clawys where yt catcheth the hard yt ys to pull thē out This pryde hath ere this made sū lerned mē to deuyse newe fantysyes in our fayth bycause they wold be syn●ular among the people as dyd Irrius Faustus Pelagyan dyuers other old heretyques whose false opynyōs haue ●en long tyme passed opēly cōdempned by many holy synodes generall coūsayles ● now god be thanked not only theyr opynyons quenched but also all theyr bokꝭ clene gone vanyshed quye away ere euer eny law was made for such bokys burnīg So that yt well appereth to haue bē the only worke of god that hath destroyed those workys whyc●e wrought in theyr tymys myche harme in hys chyrch Thys affeccyō of pryde hath not only made som lerned men to bryng forth new fātasyes but maketh also many men of mich lesse thā meane lernīg so sore to long to seme far better lerned thā they be that to make the peple haue thē in authoryte they de●yse new sectys scysmys to the pleasure of new fangle folk sparyng no payne for the whyle to set forth they re sect wythall rewardynge theyr labour wyth onely delyte of beholdyng what pleasure the people haue in theyr prechyng ¶ And albeyt that thys frātyque pleasure wyth wyche the deuyll inwardly fedeth thē be y● onely thyng that satysfyed cōtēteth som yet many are ther of those y● euyl techeth appere holy whych are bothe secretely more lose voluptuou●● then they seme And some also whyche warely kepe thē selfe for the whyle entend towarde more lyberall lewdnesse at length Wyll ye se ensample therof loke on Tyndall that translated the newe testament whyche was in dede as ye sayd in the begynnīg byfore hys goyng ouer takē for a man of sober honeste lyuing loked preched holyly sauīg that yet somtyme it sauored so shrewdly that he was onys or twyse examyned therof But yet bycause he glosed then hys wordys wyth a better sente sayde ● sware that he mēt none harme folk were glad to take all to the beste But yet ys se that though he dys●embled hym selfe to to be a Lutherane or to bete eny fauor to hys secte whyle he was here yet as sone as he gate hym hēse he gate hym to Luther straygh● And where as in the trāssacyon of the newe testament he 〈◊〉 theyr 〈◊〉 is not yet 〈◊〉 to the poynt so be●● whyche they surely trust to brynge aboute to 〈◊〉 thys realme after that fassyō of Swycherland or Saxony som other ꝑtes of Germany