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cause_n	woman_n	word_n	write_v	129	4	5.2331	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10335	Th'overthrow of stage-playes, by the way of controversie betwixt D. Gager and D. Rainoldes wherein all the reasons that can be made for them are notably refuted; th'objections aunswered, and the case so cleared and resolved, as that the iudgement of any man, that is not froward and perverse, may easelie be satisfied. Wherein is manifestly proved, that it is not onely vnlawfull to bee an actor, but a beholder of those vanities. Wherevnto are added also and annexed in th'end certeine latine letters betwixt the sayed Maister Rainoldes, and D. Gentiles, reader of the civill law in Oxford, concerning the same matter.	Rainolds, John, 1549-1607.; Gentili, Alberico, 1552-1608.	1599 (1599)	STC 20616; ESTC S115568	189,176	200

I brought them in as testimonies you named with them for company a comparison too Though seeing you are greeved with my applying of it against your stage-dansing and that induced you to call it a cōparison me thinks you should have fastned that odious name rather on the proposition prooved by those testimonies For the proofes reach not you immediatlie they fight not nigh at hande the proposition doeth as being the maior of that argument wherof your stage-players make the minor And the proposition condemning all stage-dansing doth giue a deadlyer wound nether can it choose but light on your stage-dansing the proofes might seeme to be more easilie avoided or comming so farre off to raze the skinne onely Againe my applying of the proposition to you by the assumption would deserve more woorthily the name of a comparison and the assumption being particular or singular the proposition vniversall were not this applying of all against some a comparison without all measure The third iniurious part offered me in this point is that you alleage the iudgement of Homer and Syr Thomas Eliot as making for that dansing which I did reproove And bringing in the former of them by a figure saying To omit Homers iudgment thereof him self you call an excellent observer of decorum in all things and quote for his iudgement the eight booke of his Odyssea Now better had it ben●…●…or you to omit him without a figure in deede sith he describing there the life of King Alcinous and of his people the Phaeacians saieth that they tooke pleasure continually in feasting and musicke and daunsing and braverie of apparell and hott baths and chambering wherein a livelie paterne of a wanton riotous voluptuous Epicures life being sett foorth by Homer as Horace Athenaeus Eustathius may teach you if I should not haue blamed dansing in your playes because such an excellent observer of decorum saith the Phoeacians vsed it then must the belly bee your players God because such an excellent observer of decorū saith the Phoeacians served it Moreover seeing that the Musicke which the minstrell gave thē to their dansing was a song of Mars taken in adulterie with Venus Vulcans wife you commend in dansing the number of the footing wel expressing answering and as it were acting the measure and meaning of the Musike you see what good instructions you give men by extolling your excellent observer of decorum in all things Adde therevnto that he so good an observer of decorum maketh the Phoeacian actors danse with others of their owne sexe or single Which how much why it is more allowable then men and women to danse together I wish you to consider by weighing with examples mentioned in Scripture the iudgement of Divines thereon So shall you perceiue that Homer in the eight booke of his Odyssea hath no sufficient warrant for Melantho to danse together with Eurymachus the maides with the wooers no not though they were maides and Melantho in deede much lesse for boyes attired like Melantho maides to danse with men vpon a stage The later of your autours you alleage directlie and that learned Knight Syr Thomas Eliot say you among other things that he writeth in a booke of his in the prayse of dansing compareth the man treading the measures to Fortitude and the woman on his hande to Temperance You adde that you have seene the booke and you remember hee vseth this comparison in it But did you not remember the name of the booke too or was it for some speciall cause that you concealed it your woordes might giue a man occasion to thinke that he had written a booke in the praise of dansing which that he did I finde not I guesse you meane therefore his booke entituled the Governour Wherein he prayseth Dansing and vttereth somewhat like to that avouched by you and treateth of circumstances a point you touch also which being all observed dansing may be honestlie and honorably vsed But his speech of Fortitude and Temperance represented by men and maidens in a danse commeth nothing neere your maides and wooers measures whereto you would stretch it For among diverse maners and kindes of dansing vsed in ancient time he rehearseth one wherein as Lucian saith translated woord for woorde by him in a maner dansed young men and maidens the man going before and expressing such motions as he might afterward vse in warre the maiden following him modestly and shamefastlie so that it represented a pleasant coniunction of temperance fortitude Now those warlike motions were as Plato sheweth speaking of the like danse gestures which resembled partlie the avoiding all sortes of woundes and blowes by bending aside by going backe by leaping vp by bowing downe partlie the enforcing of enimies by shooting arrowes and casting dartes at them and giving them all sortes of wounds Wherfore this being it that represented Fortitude in the danse described by Syr Thomas Eliot farre was it frō his meaning to make your measures your sober measures warlike motions or compare a wooer treading them to Fortitude As farre as to compare a boy doeing the same in maidens likenes to Temperance Which if you had otherwise expressed his sense rightlie yet should you haue forborne to apply to yours for the observing of decorum a thing that you commend so in Homer and your selfe aime at sith those maides and wooers intended both by Homer and you to be wantons must vse lascivious danses and the man if you will needes haue such resemblances bee compared rather to Mollitude or Cowardnes the woman to Incontinencie Beside that the praise which that learned Knight geveth vnto dansing he giveth it not simply for he saith some danses doe corrupt the mindes of them that danse and provoke sinne but with limitation to weete being vsed and continued in such forme and with such observations and rules as hee specifieth Whereof the first to name one for example is that by the curtesie or reverent inclination made at beginning of dansing the dansers and beholders should marke and remember this to be signified that at the beginning of all our actes we should doe due honour to God which is the roote of prudence And in deede if dansers in treading of their measures had such regards and meditations then not Syr Thomas Eliot onely but the Fathers would praise dansing too For when godly Bishops assembled in the Councells of Laodicea and Ilarda decreed that Christians ought not to danse at mariages when S t Chrysostome blamed women for so doeing as being a staine vnto their sexe when S t Ambrose cited and averred that of Tullie that such as danse are drunke or madde when S t Austin said that it were better to spend the Sabbat day in digging delving then in dansing they meant not to restraine men from marking and remembring that at

let goe his hold and in a Christian modestie and humilitie yeelded to the truth and quite altered his iudgement If it bee so good Reader and that so graue and learned a man hath chosen rather with that auncient father humile peccatum then superbam ignorantiam be not thou for thy part willfull and obstinate in thy conceite whosoever thou art but ponder the reasons and argumentes on th'one side consider the dangers and inconveniences on th'otherside And if thou haue bene bewitched with his vanitie heretofore see whether th'advised perusall of this excellent treatise may happely by Gods mercy vnwitch thee againe And take this with thee for a generall lesson and observation while thou livest That whatsoever thy fleash according to the common course of carnall men delighteth in suspect thou there is mischief in it though thou be able to defende it by thy reason Surely for mine owne part I am perswaded if this present discourse bee read marked and disgested as it should bee the gentlewoman that sware by her trouth That shee was as much edefied at a play as ever she was at any sermo c. will ere she die be of another minde though it may be shee saied true then in regard of her owne negligence and backwardnes in not giving eare to the word of God with reverence The like may fall out also to those men too that haue not bene afraied of late dayes to bring vpon the Stage the very sober countenances graue attire modest and matronelike gestures speaches of men women to be laughed at as a scorne and reproch to the world as if the hypocrisie of Iudas if it were brought vpon the stage could any whitt disgrace the Apostles of our Saviour Christ and yet if these men had but thus farre exceeded kept themselues there and gone no farther to the foule prophaning and abusing of the holy Scriptures of God their sinne had not bene half so great as it is Well to heale if it may be or at least to correct the bad humour of such humorists as these who in their discouery of humours doe withall fouly discover their own shame and wretchednes to the world here is now laied before thee good Reader a most excellent remedie and receipt if thou canst be so happie to make thy profitte of it Reade it therefore and disgeast it and if thou find good thereof giue God the glory and blesse his Name for so worthy an instrument Thine in the Lord. Maister D. Rainolds aunswere vnto Maister D. Gager concerning Theater-sights Stage-playes c. I AM much to thanke you Maister D. Gager for both your letters and your Tragedie the more for that you haue enlarged the answer to Momus as you signifie because you vnderstood that I others should aske why those thinges were not aunswered which were obiected Indeed as our Savior when he was smitten by one for speaking nought but reason saide If I haue spoken evill beare witnesse of the evill but if well why doest thou smite me so they whose obiections against playes you attributed to the person of Momus thereby noted them as vniust reproovers might iustlie say in my iudgement If our reasons be naught discover their naughtines if good why doe you Mome vs And what so euer others had cause to thinke of them selues yet I must needes thinke my self touched therein although I should yeeld vnto your request which I most gladlie doe in that you pray me not to mistake your meaning protesting your intent is not to note any man but onely Momus For I did reprove our Theater-sights Stage-playes as hurtfull and pernicious many yeares agoe and this yeare ere your Momus or any of your Enterludes came vppon the stage I had in letters written to our good friend Maister D. Thornton alleaged those reasons which you make Momus vse against them Now Aesopes tale of Momus as Aristotle sheweth in that your selfe mention of his reproving nature for setting bulles hornes vpon their heades not vpon their shoulders was devised to checke such as reproue vniustlie the best and perfitest works of the most wise and skilfull To the which purpose sith you rehearse it also and inferre vpon it that the man who taunteth playes with the rascall reproches there specified offendeth in the same sorte how can it bee avoided but I who had vttered those things against playes though deeming them sounde reasons not rascall reproches must thinke my selfe charged vnder the name of Momus vnlesse I should be so vnwise as to suppose that my frende a lawier saying If Sempronius borow a horse of Seius and ride him a mile farder then Seius was content he should he cōmitteth theft the speech doeth not charge me with theft though I had done so because the lawier meant not to charge me whom he loueth nor knewe perhaps that I had done it but his meaning was to charge Sempronius onelie Wherefore albeit you meane not to hote any man but onelie Momus as you protest and I beleeue you yet you meane withall I trowe the same that Tullie when having reprooved the couetousnes of Chieftaines and Gouuernours of their warres I quoth hee name no man Wherefore no man can bee angie with me vnlesse he will confesse first of him selfe Which I doe not mention to proove that I haue cause of being angrie with you be it farre from me although I confesse my selfe to haue written those things which they who speake are stained with Momus name by you but onely to shewe that by your speach against Momus notwithstanding your intent to note no man but him yet you note vs all in him as vniust reproovers of playes who soeuer inveigh against them as hee doeth And this your selfe can not choose but see and graunt if you call to minde your verses ad Zoilum and Epistle ad Criticum For you will professe I hope that your intent is not to note anie man but onely Zoilus and Criticus Yet if anie finde such fault with your Tragedie as you controll them for you will not denie but you meane to note him as a malitious Zoilus and a carping Criticke Your wordes inforce so much in that you tell the Criticke that who so carpeth at the basenes of your matter and style doeth not blame you but Homer And who so blameth Homer he must needes be a Zoilus I must pray you therfore not to misdeeme of mee that I mistake your meaning when I thinke you purposed to note generallie all reprovers of playes as vniust reproovers and so doe take my selfe though not intended by the Censurer who did not aime at mee yet touched by the censure whiche in event doeth light vppon mee As for that you adde that vpon confidence of your owne conscience and the trueth of the thinges them selves you assure your selfe that I can not bee displeased I will assure you also that I mislike nothing in your entitling Momus vnto our reasons of

Wherefore that of Terence wherewith you conclude saying that you thinke it was a fowle shame for noble men and Nero to play but to play noble men or Nero it is no shame for you as hee saith in the Comedie Duo quum idem faciunt saepe vt possis dicere Hoc liceti mpunè facere huic illi non licet Non quòd dissimilis res sit sed quòd is qui facit although you straiten the point whether for shame or for the figure when you speake of playing noble men and Nero your purpose being to iustifie the playing of the basest drunkards whooers too but if Terences saying would fitt the point in question the vse thereof must bee to proove that they might lawfully come on the stage you may not The truth is that it cannot bee applyed hereto because the law speaketh generally of stage-players as it doeth of bawdes of theeves with the like and common sense doeth teach vs that wee may not distinguish where the lawe distinguisheth not Else if I should say that by the same law our English theeves who robbe on Gaddes hill are infamous one of their abbetters might aunswer No not so for the Law speaketh of such as Lucius Tubulus men of wealth and state who robbed the whole worlde repairing vnto Rome not of poore good felowes that robbe a few Kentish men travailing to Graves-end and I thinke it was a fowle shame for rich men and Tubulus to robbe but to robbe riche men and Tubulus it is no shame for vs as he saith in the Comedie that oftentimes you may say when two men doe the same thing the one is not blameworthy for it the other is not as if there were difference in the thing it selfe but in the man that doeth it Which Comicall sentēce though it might be as well applied by Iustice Graybeard to the excuse of theft in poore men as by Terences Mitio it is to the excuse of whoordom in a young man yet were it vniustly applied therevnto because the law condemning theft in whomsoever without respect of persons bee they rich or poore doeth count it none of those things which fall within the compasse of Terences oftentimes So considering stage-players are spoken of in like sort as theeves by the law you see how Terences saying may be applied vnto them But if we might apply it vnto them iustly wee must inferre thereof that it was no shame for Nero his mates to come on the stage for you it is as S. Paul commandeth vs not to eate with any that is called a brother if he be a fornicatour which with an infidell committing the same filthines he doeth not forbid And thus while you endevour to vnwind your selfe out of the nett of ignominie and infamie cast vpon you by the civill lawe you are bound faster in it to the fulfilling of that proverbe which I wish you had marked in the Comedie rather if not in the Scripture It is hard to kicke against prickes In the second head to a reason drawn out of the law of God for the reproofe of stage-playes as now you handle it denying that you made it to proove that men may lawfully put on wemens raiment therein as I tooke it though howe iust cause I had to take it so I haue declared but vnto this reason grounded on the law of God in Deuteronomie Whatsoever man doeth put on womans raiment he is abominable to the Lord But men did put on wemens raiment in your playes you must acknowledge therefore that you were iustly blamed you reply in like sort as vnto the former of the civill law first that the prohibition of men to weare wemens rayment is not generall but toucheth certaine cases onely next that your players did not weare wemens raiment And because in treating of the prohibition I shewed out of the Scriptures that it doeth belong not to the ceremoniall law but to the morall and no parte of the morall law may bee transgressed no not for the saving of honour wealth or life my proofes hereof beeing so cleere strong and pregnant that you durst not deny the thing to bee prooved you moue a dout as your terme is out of wordes of mine in deede you reason thus against it I pray you giue mee leaue to propose my contrary dout The morall law as you truely say is the law of loue and charitie to the which wheresoever the ceremonial law is repugnant there it giveth place to the morall The morall law therefore is never contrarie to loue and charitie in commanding or forbidding any thing But the place of Deutero nomie being taken strictly absolutely and in the rigor of the letter may sometimes hinder the actions of loue and charitie both towards our selves and others as in those cases which both you and I propose Ergo in that strictnes it belongeth rather to the law ceremoniall though the equitie thereof pertaineth to the law morall and so it is perpetually and simply to bee observed Nowe I haue given you leaue to propose your contrary dout I pray you giue me leaue to propose my contrary question In the same booke of Deuteronomie it is written Thou shalt not kill Thou shalt not commit adulterie These precepts beeing taken strictly absolutely and in the rigor of the letter may sometimes hinder the actions of loue and charitie both towardes our selves and others as appeereth by the example of Ioseph and of David Ioseph who lost his libertie and put his life in hazard because he refused to commit adulterie with his Maisters wife David who cast his folowers and him selfe into sundry dangers and distresses because he would not kill Saul Herevpon I aske you whether you thinke that seeing the morall lawe bound Ioseph David to loue their neighbours themselves therefore they should haue made no scruple of adulterie and murder in these cases in which the forbearing thereof did hinder the actions of loue toward them selves and others but ought to haue iudged those precepts in that strictnes to belong rather to the law ceremonial though the equitie thereof pertaineth to the law moral and so it is perpetually and simply to be observed Which if you thinke not as God forbid you should and you will professe as I am perswaded that you detest such thoughts then doe you acknowledge that it came rather of a lust to crosse and contradict my speech then of any dout you had within your selfe that you say a precept which beeing strictly kept might breede some disadvantage to our selves or others must in this respect bee counted ceremoniall and not be kept strictly because the morall law is never contrarie to love and charitie in commanding or forbidding any thing And sure you might haue reason to take it not well if I should suppose you to be so ill catechized as that you knew not that the moral law commandeth vs to

to forbeare the doeing of in your whole discourse by deedes you haue induced and vrged mee to vndertake The reason added by you to move mee to forbeare it namely that I have some thing else to doe then to trouble my selfe and my better studies with a matter of this nature and moment I knowe not whether it would haue seemed sound to others sure to mee it did not For if I had lived among the Iewes at that time when the priests neglecting the service of the altar and sacrifices of the law made hast to be partakers of vnlawfull games in the wrastling place I should of all studies haue deemed that the best which the Lord requireth at his Prophets hands to rise vp in the gappe and keepe out the enemie striving to enter in thereby What studie therefore could I account so good as this to spend my vacant time in when Christians anointed by God an holy Priesthood make hast from spirituall sacrifices and service to be partakers of stage-playes that is of more vnlawful games then were those exercises in the wrastling place as the thing it selfe your own law may teach you Againe the vertuous training vp of youth among vs and the godly life of all sorts of persons are matters of great moment and weight in his sight who without respect of person iudgeth everie man according to his woorke Now what hurt it is for youth to bee seasoned with a liking of stage-players I say not to bee stage-players them selves which is woorse but to have a liking and love of such onely the autour of the dialogue were it Tacitus or Quintilian touching the decay of eloquence among the Romans doeth shew by their example And how the maners of all spectators commonlie are hazarded by the contagion of theatricall sights I made plaine vnto you in my former letters by the testimonies of learned men and noble nations all granted by your selfe or as good as granted in that you haue either not answered them at all or vnsufficientlie Wherefore considering S. Aust. zealous care to reclaime Alipius a young man whō he loved a worthy Bishop afterward from the vaine delite that he tooke in seeing games of chariot-drivers I could not but esteeme it a thing of price and woorth to seeke to reclaime from a farre more vaine and dangerous delite the Students of your house among whom there are many no lesse deere to me then Alipius was to Austin and as likelie by Gods grace hereafter to proove well With whom I have also greater cause to hope that I shall prevaile then he had with Alipius because your selfe tell me that you doe and ever will most gladly embrace not onely my good will but also my iudgement in this cause so farre as I write in the generall against stage-players For I am perswaded that their opinions of me are as kinde as yours and then doe they agree with me in a maner about the point wee treate of They will agree wholy if they weigh advisedlie one rule which you can teach them and I would I might entreat you so to doe namely that the generall doeth evermore comprise the speciall The Lord behold both them and you in his mercy and giue you all his grace to know the way that leadeth vnto life eternall and to walke therein At Queenes College the 30 th of May. 1593. Yours in the Lord Iohn Rainolds IOANNI RAINOLDO doct theologo clariss Albericus Gentilis S. NON feres opinor aegrè missa haec à me in vulgus quae unum habent alterum aliter atque tu senseris docueris Neque enim ego contra te stare volui à quo steti semper Deo faciente stabo sed adversus alios disputavi quos sequi non potui eos etsi tu sequereris ad probares Rogavi te coram de utraque quaestione nec tamen audire à te nisi nudam sententiam tuam valui Petii etiam à communi amico nostro Errico Cuffio ut de te ipsum hoc sciscitaretur si mihi autor esses ut commentationes istas typis mandarem Sed aut te convenire ille non potuit aut accepit nihil quod responderet Audi mi Rainolde quaestionem de histrionibus publicè ego tractavi antea quam tibi haec quaestio cum altero esset Itaque ipsam demere nunc de corpore reliquo honestum non fuerit Imo ad me spectare videtur defendere semper jus civile quod profiteor quod semper iustissimum observavi In vestras autem si sedesque veni non solùm tutari conatus sum nostras tu illud nosti iuris esse quando tu invisere nos in nostris sedibus voluisti Quanquam de te ego cogitare nequivi qui post meam commentationem ingressus es istam disceptationem at moralia politica sacrorum librorum aut nostra existimavi aut certè communia nobis theologis verò etiamnum versor in eadem opinione Uale vir clarissime Et de meis his chartis ●…t literis sic facies vt te in opere quod nunc aggrederis arduo et summo ne tantillum quidem morentur neque enim tanti sunt Iul. 7. ALBERICO GENTILI I. C. professori regio 10. Rainoldus S. QVae duo per epistolam erudite Gentilis à me videris petere ea tibi lubens ambo concedo alterum ne aegrè feram commentarium à te in lucem editum quimeam sententiam de Samuele pythonissae histrionibus oppugnet alterum ut literas chartasque tuas sic accipiam ne me in opere quod aggredior vel tantillum morentur Cur enim ego tibi magis irascar quod de Samuele adversus Augustinum aliosque theologos à me citatos disputes aut quaestionem do histrionibus publicè tractâris antea quàm ego de iis cum altero controversarer quàm tu succenseas mihi quòd probationes opiniones tuae à Bellarmino propositas iam pridem convellerim à pestibus scenicorum spectaculisque theatralibus nostros dehortatus sim prius quàm tu cathedram istam ex qua ludios laudas occupares Nihil autem esse quamobrē me chartae tuae remorentur verissimo colligis argumento Neque enim tanti sunt inquis Huc accedit quod actum agere vetamur proverbio Et ego in meis adversus Bellarminum de Samuele praelectionibus rationes omnes quibus contendis Samuelem ipsum à pythonissa evocatum satis superque refutavi Binis porrò literis quas ad familiarem tuum de ludis ludionibusque uti scis scripsi ea quae ex Platone Aristotele Tertulliano Augustino Aquinate aliisque citas aut falsò aut frustra urgeri planum feci Quin ipse quum fabularum quales Terentianae sunt verbis factisque inhonestis improbis