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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A09103	A discussion of the ansvvere of M. VVilliam Barlovv, D. of Diuinity, to the booke intituled: The iudgment of a Catholike Englishman liuing in banishment for his religion &c. Concerning the apology of the new Oath of allegiance. VVritten by the R. Father, F. Robert Persons of the Society of Iesus. VVhervnto since the said Fathers death, is annexed a generall preface, laying open the insufficiency, rayling, lying, and other misdemeanour of M. Barlow in his writing.	Parsons, Robert, 1546-1610.; Coffin, Edward, 1571-1626.	1612 (1612)	STC 19409; ESTC S114157	504,337	690

Salomon or Augustus But I would aske him out of passion if euer he be voyd therof as by report he is very seldome what insolencie hath this Pope shewed in being busy as he calleth it with his Maiesties Person State or Realme For as for his Person he hath alwayes honoured the same both before he was Pope and after wherof many euident testimonies might be alleadged and for his State and Kingdome while he was in Scotland neyther he nor his Predecessours did go about to trouble the same in almost fourty yeares while he reygned there all troubles came from Protestants and their Ministers And when his Maiesty was called into England the Pope that then was by this mans counsaile principally as it may be presumed for that he was Protectour of Scotland wrote to the Catholickes to further their Obedience towards him He neuer medled in any thing vntill this Oath so preiudiciall vnto his Authority and vnto the Consciences of Catholikes was proposed and vrged And as for the peace here named more continuall happy then that of Salomon or Augustus which M. Barlow sayth might be enioyed by his Maiestie with his Subiects if the Pope were not it is well that he will so much as name peace who seemeth in all his speaches to sow the seeds of warres hatred and contention But if his mind were to peace indeed he cannot be so simple but to see that the rigorous and afflictiue courses vsed and this as all men take it by the instigation of those of his coate and order cannot be meanes to peace of mindes howsoeuer otherwise they liue in externall quietnes and deuoyd of tumults And this is all that for the present I haue to write in this matter The end of the first Part. THE SECOND PART About the Breues of Paulus Quintus CONCERNING M. BARLOVVE His exorbitant flattery in exaggerating Queene Elizabeths Vertues and Sanctity CHAP. I. OVR purpose then being as now we haue declared to touch some principal points only handled by M. Barlow in this second and third Part of his answere we shall begin with the point he most standeth vpon dilating himself for twenty leaues togeather cōcerning Queene Elizabeth her raigne life and death as an argument very plausible in his opinion and capable not only of his rayling eloquence and odious amplifications but of all grosse and abiect flattery in like manner togeather with some hopes of other gaines also that way wherunto it seemeth that the poore man hath his tongue and pen most ready to the sale at all turnes and occasions offered But it may be before we end this conference his market may be more then halfe marred in the iudgment at least of disappassionate men especially with his most Excellēt Maiesty whome aboue all other he seeketh to gull in this matter turning all vpon him which I both spake and meant to a Minister of M. Barlowes owne ranke so I disclaime from the calumnious imputation that it concerneth any way his Highnesse and shall answere all in the same sense which I then wrote and meant the same reseruing all dutyfull and respectiue reference to his Maiesties Person and Iudgment as bounden duty obligeth me First then occasion being offered or rather necessity imposed to speake of Queene Elizabeth for that albeit the Pope had not so much as named her in any of his two Breues yet had the Apologer brought in her mentiō with many high praises for disgrasing of Catholickes and their cause and for scorne to the Pope as though he had without cause pittyed and mourned their afflictions vnder her which he saith was none at all for that to his own knowledge she neuer punished any Papist for Religion For these causes I say I was forced in my Letter to say somewhat to this assertiue proposition wherunto the tribulations afflictions calamities spoiles exiles and bloud of so many shed by her did manifestly in the eyes and eares of al men and women that haue liued in our dayes contradict and reclaime And yet did I resolue to do the same as mildly and sparingly as I might answering only the wordes of the Apologie and abstayning purposely from al bitternesse of speach so far as the iust defence of the cause permitted and so shall continue 〈…〉 Barlowes most intemperate prouocation to the contrary VVhereas then in reciting the wordes of the Apologer I mentioned these Hauing sayth he sacrificed as I may say to the Manes of my defunct Soueraigne as well for the discharge of my particuler dutie as loue of veritie I must now performe my d●ty also to his Maiestie present c. Vpon which wordes I noted that the phrase of sacrificing to the Queenes Manes or Ghostes seemed to me very profane as proper to the Pagan Sacrifices vsed to those infernall spirits which they called Gods hurtful Gods therfore endeauored to please them with sacrifices My words discourse were these But as for his heathen profane sacrificing to the Manes or Hob-goblins of his late Lady I confesse it is an office fitter for a Protestant-Minister that thinketh it vnlawfull to pray for her soule to deale with her Manes or infernall spirites then with Celestiall by praying for her to Saints But would God these Manes might now haue licēce to appeare and talke which him and relate what passeth with her after all this ioylity and ruffe in this world I doubt not but they would coole his excessiue vaine of flattering vanity For if all the old platforme of Saints liues prescribed in Scriptures and practised by the seruants of God were not erroneous and vaine as much fasting continual prayer daily mortification frequent recollection diligent chastisement of theyr bodies humble feruent deuotion labouring and working theyr saluation in feare and trembling aboundant almes-deedes haire-cloth and ashes contrition sorrow and sobbing for their sinnes yf these things I say were the ancient wayes to life and euerlasting saluation then must the pathes of Queene Elizabeth which are knowne by most men to haue bene eyther wholy different or most opposite to these led to another opposite end quia vnusquisque recipiet secundum opera s●● Euery one shall receiue according to his or her works and the sentence of the Apostle is cleare resolute Si secundum carnem vixeritis moriemini si facta carnis spiritu mortificaueritis vi●etis if you liue according to the flesh you shall die but if you shall mortify by spirit the workes of the flesh you shall liue that is to life euerlasting About these words of mine M. Barlow taketh occasion to make very large discourses and to dilate himselfe in three or foure points ●xceedingly First in the excessiue prayses of the Queene then in superlatiue raylinges against me thirdly in iustifying the phrase of sacrificing to the dead Queens ghost fourthly in setting out her frequent mortifications that she vsed but yet in such sort as he well sheweth not only not to feele what mortification

Another thing may be to consider what strange Paradoxes he inserts here and there as positiōs dogmaticall which who so listeth in practise to follow shall either haue no religion or faith at all or insteed of Christs Ghospell the Turks Alcoran For exāple what more grosse and wicked assertion can there be then to teach that Kings euen against our conscience are to be obeyed For thus he replyeth against F. Persons saying that Kings were to be obeyed propter cōscientiā sed non contra conscientiā This saith M. Barlow is no sound doctrine in the negatiue part for euen against a mans Conscience the Prince is to be obeyed Againe There is nothing more easy for proofe or euident for d●monstration then that obedience is to be enioyned ●u●n against conscience if it be erroneous and leaprous and against religion if forged and falsely so called And is not this a very learned Axiome For more euident refutation whereof let vs suppose that for which we powre forth our daily prayers to God that his Maiesty were as all his Noble Progenetors of both Realmes haue alwayes bene a Catholick Prince and as zealous for the truth therof as now he is for the Protestant cause if then he should propose vnto Syr Williā the Oath of Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome so cleerly out of Scriptures and all antiquity proued and euinced to be true but yet in the blind eyes and leaprou● conscience of this Minister thought to be false what would he doe therin Will he sweare it to be true But in his conscience he thinketh it to be false and against the Scriptures Will he refuse it But Kings saith he euen against conscience are to be obeyed 25. Neyther doth he help the matter any thing at all by his distinction of leaprous and erroneous conscience for with men of his stamp conscience is like a cheuerell point which they may stretch loose at their pleasure For who knoweth not that in the tyme of Q. Mary they were held to haue erroneous leaprous consciences euen by the iudgement of the greatest deuines in Geneua who manteyned that women were to be obeyed albeit they were Queenes euen in ciuill and temporall affaires But within one yeare after this errour and leaprosy was so transposed that the quite contrary was taught and they were not only held to haue leaprous and erroneous consciences who denyed ciuill obedience but were condemned also as Traitours by Parlament if they did deny Q. Elizabeth to be the Supreme head or Gouernesse of the Church of England So that it was not only lawfull but necessary for her to haue all Temporall and Ecclesiasticall gouernmēt in her hands as she was Queen which yet in Q. Mary to haue ciuill only euen by reason of her sex was iudged monstrous vnnaturall and repugnāt to the Scriptures and law of God Many other examples might be produced in this kind to shew this new Gospell to be as constant as the weathercocke which neuer turneth but when the wynd doth change to wit as often as occasions fall out that may fit their purpose for then they will strayne all conscience and honesty also to conforme themselues become good subiects 26. Much like vnto this of obeying Kings against our conscience is his other prophane and barbarous assertion of the Supremacy of the heathen Emperours Nero Domitian and the rest ouer the Christian Church yea which is more strange that the auncient Fathers Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian and others acknowledged the same But you must know that M. Barlow in cyting their words for proofe of this paradox is very silent howsoeuer with all cōfidēce as a maxime in his new Deuinity vncōtrollable he deliuereth the same saying That they acknowledged the Emperors Supremacy indepēdant vpon any but God And a litle after that Queene Elizabeth in her Supremacy was no vsurper by Nouell-claime but accepted what God himselfe had annexed to her crowne Out of which I first note that by this Doctrine the Great Turke is supreme Head of the Christian Church in Greece and that if M. Barlow were there for such he would acknowledge him Secondly the Pythagoricall manner of speaking which our Aduersaries vse in matters of greatest moment and controuersie For whereas before King H●nry the eight no Christian King euer tooke that title or vsurped any such authority ouer the Church yea for challenging much lesse Constantius was called Antichrist both by S. Athanasius and S. Hilary these men without all profe but not without singuler impupudency thinke it sufficient to say● that the King is head of the Church that he was so acknowledged by the ancient Fathers that not only a woman may haue the same authority of Supremacy in all causes Ecclesiasticall but that also the heathen Emperours had it as annexed to their Crowne and Imperiall Dignitie euen against the whole torrent of all writters the practise of the Christian world and euident text of Scripture it selfe no Fathers no history no monument no shew or shaddow of proofe or authority in former tymes being found for the same without many straines violent enforcements or ridiculous illations made there-upon as in the arguments of the Protestants who haue treated this controuersie is euery where to be seene 27. Lastly the Reader may note that M. Barlow is so poore a Deuine as eyther he knoweth not what belongeth to matters of faith or els is so wicked as against his owne knowledge he will auouch that for true which is checked euen by his owne brethren and conuinced by common sense and experiēce to be most false to wit that the Protestants and the Puritanes in England differ only in ma●ters cerimoniall and agree in all ●ss●ntiall and substantiall points concerning religion in which this Prelate is very cathegoricall for ignorance as himself elswhere telleth vs out of Fathers and Philosophers though he cite no place or sentence is the mother of a●dacious assertions and vndertakings and writteth thus Faine they woul● possesse the world that we are at iarre among our selues about our religion whereas the quarrell though it be indeed vnkind yet is it not in this kind sau● only for cerimonyes externall no points substantiall c. So he Which though it be kindly spoken as you see yet he must giue me leaue to belieue him at leasure and in the meane tyme ●o aske him one question to wit whether the Protestāts and Puritans vnderstand their ow●e differences that are between thē or not If not● then we need not belieue M. Barlow as speaking of that which he doth not vnderstand If they doe how commeth it to passe that they condemne ech other of idolatry heresy and false religion as any may read in the Suruey and dangerous Positions set forth by S●●cliffe and the last Superintendent of Canterbury for the Protestants and Cartwright Gilby M●rtin Senior and others for the Puritans 28. To this answereth M. Barlowes Comicall companion of

death-bed and therupon he discoursed how the sayd old woman by vertue of the same liued to the age of an hundred and od yeares and in that age hauing all her body withered and consumed and wanting nature to nourish she died commaunding the sayd peece of go●ld to be carefully sent her Maiesty all●aging further that as long as the sayd old woman wore it vpon her body she could not dye The Queene vpon the confidence she had thereof tooke the sayd gould● and wore it vpon her ru●fe Now though she fell not suddainly sicke yet daily decreased her rest and feeding and within few dayes fell sick indeed and the cause being wondred at by a Lady with whom she was very priuate and confident her Maiesty tould her commaunding her to conceale the same that she saw one night in her bed her body exceeding leane and fearfull in a light of fire This sight was at VVhite-hall a little before she departed from thence to Richmond and may be testifyed by another Lady who was one of the neerest about her Person of whom the Queene demaunded whether she was not wont to see sightes in the night telling her of the bright flame she had seene Afterward in the melancholy of her sicknes she desired to see a true looking glasse which in twenty yeares before she had not seene but only such a one as was made of purpose to deceaue her sight which glasse being brought her she fell presently into exclayming agains● them whic● had so much commended her and tooke it so offensiuely that some which before had flattered her du●st not come into her sight Now falling into extremity she ●ate two dayes and three nightes vpon her stoole ready dresl●d and could neuer be brought by any of her Counsell to go to bed or to eat or drinke only my Lord Admirall one time perswaded her to drinke some broath ●or that any of the rest she would not answere them to any question but sayd softly to my Lord Admiralls earnest perswasions that if he knew what she had seene in her bed he would not perswade her as hee did And comaunding the rest of the Lords to depart her chamber willed my Lord Admirall to stay to whome she shoo●● her head and with a pittifull voice said vnto him My Lord I am tied with a chaine of iron about my n●eke he alleadging her wonted courage she replied I am tied and the case is altered with mee About the same time two Ladies waiting on her in her C●āber discouered in the bottom of her Chaire the Queen● o● hartes with a nayle of iron knockt through the forehead of it the which the Ladies durst not then pull out remembring that the like thing was reported to be vsed to other for witch-craft Another Lady waiting in these times on the Queene leauing her asleep in her priuy chamber at Richmond at the very first distemper of her sicknes met her at she t●ought three or foure chambers of fearing that she would haue byn displeased that she le●t her alone came towards her to excuse her selfe but shee vanished away and when the Lady retourned into the same chamber where she left the Queene she found her asleepe as before So in time growing past recouery hauing kept her bed some daies the Counsell sent vnto her the Bishop of Canterburie other of the Prelates vpon sight of whom she was much offended cholerikly rating them bidding them be packing afterwardes exclaymed to my L. Admirall that ●he had the greatest indignity offered her by the Archbi●hop that a Prince could haue to pronoūce sentēce of death against her as if she had liued an Atheist And some Lords mentioning to haue other Prelates to come vnto her she answered that she would haue none of those hedge-priests so none of them came to her till after she was past sense at the last gasp at which tyme some praiers were said not farre from her The Queene being departed this life the Lords of the Counsell went to London to proclaime his Maiesty leauing her body with charge not to be opened such being her desire but some for some reasons hauing giuen a secret warrant to the Surgeons they opened her which the rest of the Counsell did not contradict Now her body being seared vp was brought to VVhite-hall where it was watched euery night by six seuerall Ladies who being all about the same which was fast nayled vp within a board-coffin with leaues of lead couered with veluet it happened that her body brake the coffin with such a cracke that it spleated the wood lead and cerecloth to the terror and astonishmēt of all that were present wherupon the next day she was fayne to be new trimmed vp in so much as all were of opiniō that if she had not byn opened the breach of her body would haue byn much worse Diuers other particularities ●or that they cōcerne speciall Pe●●onage● I haue thought good for some causes to conceale And this narration I haue byn forced to set forth to auoid the calumniation of M. Barlow who saith vpon my first words in the Letter to my friend This is another Ies●●●icall tricke as well in matters histo●icall as o● doctrine to ●ra●e it out with an impud●nt tale but aske thē for their Author who saith it then ansu●●er is like the C●clops c●y in Homer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nobody nobody But we say cōtrary to the Cyclops somebody somebody or rather many Lodies togeather for that in this point I haue the original by me haue shewed it to many men of grauity iudgmēt though it be not cōuenient to declare the name of the Relator for this present to M. Barlow for more causes then one And as for his general slaūder con●umelies which he though good he●● to cast in that it is a Iesuitical trick as well in matters Historicall as of doctrine to braue it out with an impudēt tale the assertiō therof must needs ●hew his impudency if he doth not proue it with some examples as he neyther doth nor can but how often I haue don it against him in this book the Reader hath partly seene and will more before wee end And the two late bookes published to omit all other the one The sober Reckoning with M. Morton the other The Search of M. Francis VValsingham one of their owne Religion do so put them to the wall in this matter of lying and falsifying as if M. Barlow be able well to answer those two bookes and satisfy substantially for the mayne and huge number of falsities therin obiected and demonstrated it shall not be needfull for him to trouble himselfe any more to answer this my booke for I will take my selfe satisfied by the satisfaction giuen to them And thus now hauing buried Q. Elizabeth brought her body to rest for a time would to God we might hope the like both for body and soule eternally Christ Iesus our Sauiour knoweth how

that he in the day of iudgment to wit our Sa●iour will giue reward for our good works almes is now also ready to shew himsel●e a most benigne heater to him that shall come vnto him by prayer works and so did Cornelius the Centurion merit to be heard as doing many almes vpon the people sayth the Scripture And when about nyne of the clocke the sayd Centurion prayed an Angell stood by him and gaue testimony of his good works saying Cornelius thy prayers and almes haue ascended vp before God citò orationes ad Deum ascendunt quas ad Deum merita nost●i operis imponunt Our prayers do quickly ascēd vnto God which the merits of our good works do lay before him c. And presētly with this Scripture he ioyneth the other out of Toby Sic Raphel Angelus c. So the Angel Raphael did testify vnto Toby alwayes praying alwayes working whē thou didst pray togeather with Sara I did offer the memory of thy prayer in the sight of God when thou didst bury the dead and leaue thy dinner for doing the same I was sent by God to tempt thee and afterward to cure thee I am Raphael one of the sea●en iust Angels who do assist conuerse in the sight of God c. Where we see that S. Cyprian maketh another manner of accompt of the holynes and meryt of this worke and of the truth of this Angell then M. Barlow doth And the very self same speach S. Cyprian vseth in his booke de M●●talitate alleadging this place of Toby and testimony of the Angell Raphael in the commendation of Tobies fact in burying the dead against the Kinges commandement So as white and black hoat and cold or the two poles are not more opposite one to the other then the spirit of S. Cyprian and that of M. Barlow in this point And truly it seemeth that a man may gather by good consequence that for so much as he condemneth that fact of Toby in burying the dead bodies of the Iewes in persecution he would also if he had bene there not only not haue buried these dead bodies against the Kings Edict but also neyther haue receaued the persecuted into his house agaynst the commaundement of the sayd King Nay he would haue rather deliuered them vp to the persecutors hands and the like if he had liued amongst Christians vnder Nero Domitius and Dioclesian And this is M. Barlows piety in respect of that of holy Toby and S. Cyprian S. Ambrose S. Augustine and other such sincere pious men who both approued and commended this fact Now let vs passe on to the rest After these examples of Scriptures there were alleadged by the Apologer sundry authorityes of ancient Fathers which shew the obligation that subiects haue to obey their temporall Princes which in my Letter I declared no way to preiudice our cause who both acknowledge and offer all dutifull obedience in temporall affaires which is so much as the sayd ancient Fathers doe teach and for that the sayd authorityes are cleare for vs in that behalfe I shall ●et downe here what I answered to the same As these places of Scripture said I alleaged against vs do make for vs so much more do the authorities produced out of the ancient Fathers for that they go about to proue the very same point that we here hold that in tēporall cyuill affayres we must obey dutifully our temporall Princes though Infidels or Pagans but not in matters concerning God our Religion or Conscience And his very first example out of S. Augustine is such as I meruaile much that he would cyte the same but that somwhat for shew must be alleadged For it maketh so clearly directly against him as if it had beene written purposely to confute him in this our case But let vs heare what it is Agreable to the Scriptures saith he did the Fathers teach Augustine speaking of I●dian saith thus Iulian was an vnbelieuing Emperour was he not an Apostata an oppressor and an Idolatour Christiā souldiars serued that vnbelieuing Emperour when they came to the cause of Christ they would acknowledge no Lord but him that is in heauen when he would haue them worship Idolls sacrifice they preferred God before him but when he said Go forth to fight inuade such a nation they presently obeyed they distinguished their eternall Lord from their temporall and yet were they subiect euen vnto their temporall Lord for his sake that was their eternall Lord and Maister Thus he And can any thing be spoken more cleerly for vs and for our cause then this For euen this do we offer to our King Soueraigne we will serue him we wil obey him we will go to warre with him we will fight for him and we will do all other offices belonging to temporall duty but when the cause of Christ commeth in hand who is Lord of our Consciences or any matter concerning the same or our Religion there we do as S. Augustine heere appoynteth vs preferre our eternall King before our Temporall And like to these are all the other places of Fathers cyted by him who distinguish expresly betweene the Temporall honour and Allegiance due to the Emperour and the other of our Religion Conscience belonging only to God And to that playne sense are Tertullians words cyted by the Apologer VVe honour the Emperour in such sort as is lawfull for vs and ●xpedient for him as a man second after God and as hauing receyued from God whatsoeuer he is and only l●sse th●n God And will not the Catholicks of England vse this speac● also vnto their King Or will the Apologer himselfe deny that Tertullian heere meant nothing els but in temporall affayres for somuch as the Emperors at that tyme were Heathens Gentils and consequently were no● to be obeyed in any point against Christian faith or Religion The like playne sense haue the words of Iustin●● Martyr to the Emperour himselfe cited here in the third place to wit VVe only adore God and in all things we cheerfully performe seruice to you prosessing you to be Emperours and Princes of men And do not all English Catholickes say the same at this day in all other things that concerne not God his Obedience by rule of Catholicke Religion they offer cheerfully to serue his Maiesty acknowledging him to be their liege Lord and King inferiour only to God in his Temporall Gouernment And how then are these and such other places brought in for witnesse as though they had somewhat to say against vs The other two sentences in like manner cited out of Optatus and S. Ambrose the first saying That ouer the Emperour there is none but only God that made the Emperour And the other That teares were his weapons against the armes and souldiars of the Emperour That he neither ought nor could resist neyther of thē do make