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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A10345	The summe of the conference betwene Iohn Rainoldes and Iohn Hart touching the head and the faith of the Church. Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points, of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures, the ministerie of the Church, the function of priesthood, the sacrifice of the masse, with other controuerises of religion: but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouernment ... Penned by Iohn Rainoldes, according to the notes set downe in writing by them both: perused by Iohn Hart, and (after things supplied, & altered, as he thought good) allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them. Whereunto is annexed a treatise intitled, Six conclusions touching the Holie Scripture and the Church, writen by Iohn Rainoldes. With a defence of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein.	Rainolds, John, 1549-1607.; Hart, John, d. 1586. aut; Rainolds, John, 1549-1607. Sex theses de Sacra Scriptura, et Ecclesia. English. aut	1584 (1584)	STC 20626; ESTC S115546	763,703	768

THE SVMME OF THE CONFERENCE BETWENE IOHN RAINOLDES AND IOHN HART TOVCHING THE HEAD AND THE FAITH OF THE CHVRCH Wherein by the way are handled sundrie points of the sufficiencie and right expounding of the Scriptures the ministerie of the Church the function of Priesthood the sacrifice of the Masse with other controuersies of religion but chiefly and purposely the point of Church-gouerment opened in the branches of Christes supreme soueraintie of Peters pretended the Popes vsurped the Princes lawfull Supremacie Penned by Iohn Rainoldes according to the notes set downe in writing by them both perused by Iohn Hart and after things supplied altered as he thought good allowed for the faithfull report of that which past in conference betwene them Whereto is annexed a Treatise intitled SIX CONCLVSIONS TOVCHING THE HOLIE SCRIPTVRE AND THE CHVRCH writen by Iohn Rainoldes With a defense of such thinges as Thomas Stapleton and Gregorie Martin haue carped at therein 1. Ioh. 4.1 Deerely beloued beleeue not euery spirit but trie the spirits whether they be of God for many false Prophets are gone out into the world Londini impensis Geor. Bishop 1584 TO THE RIGHT Honorable the Lord Robert Dudley Earle of Leicester one of her Maiesties priuie Councell and Chauncellour of the Vniuersitie of Oxford grace and peace be multiplied THe beginning of Schooles and Vniuersities right Honorable in the Church of God doth shew that they were planted to bee nurseries of Prophets who being instructed in the truth of his word might deliuer it to men and lighten as starres the darkenesse of the world with the beames of it But it hath come to passe by deuises of the dragon whose taile drew the third part of the starres of heauen cast them to the earth that they haue bene turned into seminaries of false Prophets to maintaine errours and the power of darkenesse against the light and truth of Christ. The primitiue Church had experience hereof in them of the Synagogue of Libertines and Cyrenians who disputed with Steuen A lesson for the faithfull in the ages to folow that they should not thinke it strange or be dismayed if Schooles Vniuersities of men professing wisedome were possessed of folie and sought to peruert the straight wayes of the Lord. The consideration whereof as it was needefull for our predecessours when Rabbines of the Iewes Philosophers of the Heathēs Sorbonists amōg Christians being seduced themselues seduced others so haue the Seminaries of our English students erected by the Pope of late at Rome and Rhemes made it needeful also for vs at this day The more how much the nerer their dealings do come to those of the Synagogue of Libertines Cyrenians For as they defended the Iewish opinions receiued by tradition from their Fathers so do the Seminaries the Popish superstitions As they did pretend the care of religion of Moses and God the law the Temple so do the Seminaries of the Catholike faith the Scriptures and the Church As the meanes they vsed were sclanders of Steuen that he spake blasphemous wordes against the holy place and the law so do the Seminaries charge vs with reuolting from the holy Church and corrupting the Scriptures I am not worthie to be compared with the least of the seruants of God who liued at that time in which he powred the giftes of his holy spirit from heauen so aboundantly Howbeit as it pleased him to rayse Steuen to dispute with some of the Iewish Synagogue so hath he vouchsafed me of this fauour that I should be called to conferre with certaine of the Popish Seminaries Of whom one contented to proceede farther therin then the rest by writing not by word onely hath giuen occasion ofthis which here I publish Wherein how indifferently he hath bene dealt with himselfe hath declared My conscience for mine owne part beareth me witnesse that I haue endeuored to defend the cause of the same truth with the same purpose by the same principles groūds that Steuē did Wishing from my hart if so it please God that it may preuaile more with English Papists then Steuens speech did with the Iewish Priests But ready by his grace to endure their spite ifthey hate me for telling them the truth as the Iewes did him Now sith Luke who penned the story of Steuen sent it to Theophilus most noble Theophilus I haue bene the bolder to present my conference vnto you right Honorable aduanced in state to be of the most noble in minde a Theophilus and louer of the truth Your benefites both publikely to our Vniuersitie in maintenance of our priuileges priuately to me ward a member thereof haue bound me to offer this testificat●on of a thankefull minde And sith it hath bene I know a greefe vnto you that the Popish Synagogue hath drawne proselytes thence I thought it most meete that the labours spent with one so withdrawne and printed to reclaime them who are gon if may bee or at least to stay them who are not gon should bring him the salue whom the sore had touched neerest Which moueth me withall to beseech your Honour that as you haue begoon so you will go forward in being carefull for our nurserie that they who haue the charge of husbanding it may fense it and dresse it faithfully and wisely that neither the wild boare of the forest nor other vermin may anoy it that the fruites of the trees therof may serue for meate the leaues for medicine through waters running out of the sanctuarie and the tree of life may grow in the middest of it as in the garden of Eden planted by the Lord. So shall you leaue a most worthie monument of a noble Theophilus the reward whereof shall folow from God who will render to euery man according to his workes the remēbrance shall rest in the Christian Church and common wealth ofEngland to your eternall praise throughout all posteritie The Lord of his mercie blesse you with continuall increase of the graces of his holy spirite specially of that which hath the promise of this life and of the life to come to your endlesse comfort through Iesu Christ the Lord of life At London the eighteenth of Iuly 1584. Your Honours in Christ at commaundement Iohn Rainoldes Iohn Hart to the indifferent Reader BEhold gentle Reader the conference which thou hast so long looked for betweene M. Rainoldes and me at length ended as also it had beene more then twelue monethes since had not my selfe hindred the cōming of it foorth when it was nigh readie to be deliuered to the Printer For it is now aboue two yeares ago that the right honorable Syr Francis Walsingham as he had shewed me great fauour from the time that I was apprehended in graunting me libertie of conference at home first in mine owne countrie and afterwarde in prison so when the sentence of death was past vpon me hee ceased not still to offer me the

feathers They report that Plato defined a man so a man is a liuing creature two-footed vn-feathered For which definitiō when he was commended Diogenes tooke a Capon and hauing pluckt his feathers off did bring him in to the schoole of Plato saying This is Platoes man The holy word of God is the same in the Church that reason is in a man Whereupon we giue it for an essential marke as I may terme it of the Church by which the Church is surely known and discerned But the shew of Gods word is such in many heretikes as of reason in brute beastes that some who haue no skill to discerne that marke doo thinke it impossible to know the Church by it Your felowes hereupon describe the Church by outward and accidentall markes as namely by antiquity succession consent These are very plausible and many do commend them highly But he that hath halfe an eie of a Philosopher I meane a wise Christian néede not playe Diogenes in plucking feathers off to shew that these markes may agrée to a capon Now as they deale with the markes of the Church so doo you M. Hart with the markes of the truth Not Vincentius but you who couer your errors with the name of Vincentius and take thinges as necessary and sure proofes of truth which he did note as probable and likelye tokens of it onely For he deliuered them not as neuer failing but as holding often and such as albeit they doo hit sometimes yet do they misse sometimes also Whereof him selfe is witnesse in that he disproueth them the first vniuersality by the example of the Arians and flyeth from it to antiquitie the second antiquitie by the example of the Donatistes and flyeth from it to consent Hart. But the third consent he speaketh of as neuer failing as a necessarie token to know and trie the truth by as an essentiall marke and proper to the pointes of Catholike faith and truth And this is the marke which chiefly I regarded when I alleaged Vincentius that our questions might be tried by the consent of the Fathers Rainoldes In déede he preferreth this marke before the rest as hauing held when they fayled Neuerthelesse he speaketh not so of it neither as that it may serue for tryall and decision of questions betwéene vs. For what doth he acknowledge to bee a point approued such as we are bound to beléeue by this marke Euen that which the Fathers all with one consent haue held written taught plainely commonly continually And who can auouch of any point in question that not one or two but all the Fathers held it nor onely held it but also wrote it nor onely wrote it but also taught it not darkely but plainely not seldome but commonly not for a short season but continually Which so great consent is partly so rare and hard to be found partly so vnsure though it might be found that him selfe to fashion it to some vse and certainetie is faine to limit and restraine it First for the matters that we are to seeke and follow their consent not in all litle questiōs of the scripture but in the weighty pointes of faith Then for the persons that we must folow all or the greater part because in many pointes all of them consent not Finally which cometh néerest to our purpose he graunteth that there may such heresies arise as must be dealt withall by the scripture onely and not by the Fathers for purposing to shew both in what maner and what kind of heresies may be found out and condemned by the consenting sentences of the Fathers he saith and confirmeth that neither all heresies must be assaulted in this sort nor alwaies but only such as are new and greene to weete when first they spring vp before they haue falsisied the rules of auncient faith the very straitenes of time not suffering them to do it and before the poyson spreading abroad farther they endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers But heresies that are spread abroad and waxed old must not be set vpon in this sort because they by long continuance of time haue had long occasion to steale away the truth And therefore whatsoeuer profanities there be either of schismes or heresies that are waxed auncient we must in no case deale otherwise with them then either to conuince them if it bee nedeful by the authoritie of scriptures onely or at the least auoid them being of old time conuicted and condemned alreadie by the generall councels of Catholike Bishops Lo when heresies are growne to be in yeares auncient and ample in places when they haue got antiquitie and vniuersality then must we fight against them not by consent of Fathers but by the authoritie of the scriptures only This is the sentence of Vincentius Lirinensis in that passing fine booke against the profane innouations of all heresies Is it not a golden sentēce Hart. The cause why Vincentius affirmeth that heresies when they are spread far and haue long continued are to be confuted by the scriptures onely not by consent of Fathers is that which he dooth point too of endeuouring to corrupt the writings of the Fathers a common practise of heresies if occasion and time serue them But there is no colour why therefore you should refuse to deale with vs by the consent of Fathers For neither are the doctrines which we professe heresies much lesse olde and ample heresies such as he speaketh of nor haue wée endeuoured to corrupt the writings of the Fathers nay wée haue kept them and endeuour daily to set them foorth most perfitly But your heresies in déede although they sprang of late and may be counted new and greene yet haue they endeuoured to corrupt the Fathers since and haue done it The practise of Erasmus is famous therein Of whom to say nothing what censures haue béen giuen by other worthy men whō Torrensis nameth Marian Victorius in Cōmentaries that he set foorth vpon the former thrée tomes of S. Ierome reproueth most learnedly more then sixe hundred errours thrust into them by Erasmus either in expounding or ill correcting them And Torrensis in his preface to the Confession of S. Austin declareth sundry bookes to be S. Austins owne which Erasmus had noted as falsly fathered on him Wherefore if by Vincentius you minde to touch them who endeuour to corrupt the writings of the Fathers cast out the beame out of your owne eie before you séeke a m●at● in ours Rainoldes Yet you sée by the way though you make hast away from it what rotten postes they be whereon as principall pillars your church and faith is built vniuersalitie antiquitie consent Of which it is shewed by Vincentius himselfe that heresies may iustly claime the two former vniuersalitie and antiquitie and make a faire chalenge to the third consent in processe of time so cunningly can they file the Fathers to their

all their wordes be weighed For Ambrose saith that Andrew did first folowe Christ and they say that Peter was called first of Christ. The truth of both which is plaine by the scriptures For Andrewe folowed Christ before Peter knewe him and he brought Peter vnto Christ. But Christ said to Peter Thou shalt be called Cephas wherein he meant him the Apostleship before hee spake a word of the Apostleship to Andrewe And so doth Ambrose séeme him selfe to expound his meaning otherwhere affirming of Peter that he was the first among the Apostles to whom our Sauiour had committed the charge of the churches Whereby he giueth Peter the primacie in being called to the Apostleship thogh he gaue a primacie in discipleship as it were I meane in folowing Christ to Andrew As for S. Austins words which you say import that he meant a primacie notin calling but preeminēce you should haue rather said that he meant a primacie in calling preeminence both For out of al doubt he meant a primacie in calling But your fréends who dismember the sayings of the Fathers doo stand in your light that you can not sée it For as Stapleton did cut out the former wordes of Ambrose that Peter might be thought the onely man who had the charge of the churches not the first of them who had it so hath Torrensis cut of the later words of Austin that the primacie of Peter might be thoght a primacie in power not in calling or if in calling in power too The primacie of the Apostles is conspicuous and praeeminent with excellent grace in the Apostle Peter thus saith Torrensis out of Austin And these are Austins wordes but his words say farther that Peter the Apostle in whom that grace and primacie are so preeminent was corrected by Paule a later Apostle Wherein naming Paule a later Apostle as made Apostle after Peter in time he sheweth that of the other side he meant by the primacie that Peter was an Apostle in time before Paule As Ambrose saith of the chiefest of the Apostles that they were before Paule not in dignitie but in time And Cyprian whom Austin alleageth and foloweth doth vse the worde primacie in the same sense of being first in time also Wherefore the Fathers proue not your supremacie by giuing the prerogatiue of primacie to Peter Hart. The bare name of primacie is not enough to prooue it But some by that name haue meant a supremacie And surely the preeminence with excellent grace which Austin giueth Peter doth note a higher primacie then either of order or calling or time though it with all too Rainoldes It doth so I graunt And I noted that in the third prerogatiue which the Fathers giue him namely principalitie For Austin hauing ioined his primacie and preeminence with excellent grace togither doth terme them both in one the principalitie of the Apostleship Which if some haue meant by the name of primacie as perhaps they haue they might because the word is borowed often times from the proper signification of the first in order to signifie the chiefe in quality And so when Austin saith that Peter was a man by nature a Christian by grace by more aboundant grace an Apostle of Christ yea the first Apostle by the first Apostle he meant the chiefe Apostle the principalitie by the primacie But this principalitie of the Apostleship this preeminence of the primacie with grace so excellent and aboundant cometh no néerer vnto your supremacie then did the primacie of order For to be chiefe in grace is one thing and to be chiefe in power an other Hart. And is it not a great grace to be chiefe in power Rainoldes As you say the greatest grace that your Popes of long time haue fought for Yet there is a difference betwéene grace and power Which the Popes Lawiers haue obserued well as it behoued them to doo For many Doctors haue beene endued with greater grace of the holy Ghost then sundry Popes saith Gratian yet in the deciding of controuersies and causes the writings of the Doctors are of lesse authoritie then the Popes decrees Why because the Popes are in power aboue them But what speake I of Doctors when the meanest Christians may passe the Pope in grace as it is confessed by Cardinall Turrecremata Who handling the question betwéen the Pope and the Church whether of them is greater when he had set downe the reason of his aduersaries that the Church is greater because it is the bodie the Pope a member of it and the whole must needes be greater then the part he answereth thereto that the question is not whether the Church be greater then the Pope simply to weete in perfection of grace and amplenes of vertues for euen an old woman may in this sort be perfiter and greater then the Pope him selfe but in power of iurisdiction he saith the Pope is greater Wherfore if the Popes supremacie do stand in power of iurisdiction and a woman may be aboue him in grace then Peter might excel with the preeminence of grace as Austin saith he did and yet not excel in supremacie of power which you conclude of it Else you must take the supremacie from Peter and giue it to the blessed virgin Unlesse you you will deny that she excelled him in grace Hart. I will not deny it Neither did I meane to prooue the supremacy by the preeminence of grace alone in Peter but by the preeminence of so excellent grace concurring with the primacy Whereto because you think these priuileges touched by Austin doo not prooue it the title of the Prince of the Apostles which all antiquitie geueth him may adde weight and strength Rainoldes Which all antiquitie geueth him That spéech is too lauishing Beside that some of them who geue it to him geue it to Paul also But suppose that all and to him onely What is there implyed more in this title then I haue graunted you already For must he not be needes the Prince of the Apostles to whom the principalitie of the Apostleship is allowed And if the principalitie of the Apostleship inferre not your supremacie can you inferre a supreme head by the Prince of the Apostles But the name of Prince perhaps doth deceiue you or you deceiue others by it For our English tongue dooth vse it to note a soueraine power in gouernment as the Princes of Iuda the Princes of Israel the Princes of the Gentiles are named in the scriptures Whereas the Fathers vsed it after the Latin phrase for chiefe and most excellent as Plato is named the prince of the Philosophers As Plato saith Ierom was prince of the philosophers so was Peter of the Apostles Wherefore this is all you may conclude of it that Peter did excell amongst the Apostles for grace and giftes of grace