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cause_n wit_n word_n worship_n 27 3 6.5892 4 false
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A19857 A suruey of certaine dialogical discourses: vvritten by Iohn Deacon, and Iohn Walker, concerning the doctrine of the possession and dispossession of diuels VVherein is manifested the palpable ignorance and dangerous errors of the discoursers, and what according to proportion of God his truth, every christian is to hold in these poyntes. Published by Iohn Darrell minister of the gospell. Darrel, John, b. ca. 1562. 1602 (1602) STC 6285; ESTC S109295 85,966 179

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in_o the_o mother_n in_o convulsion_n etc._n etc._n i_o answer_v i_o neither_o make_v these_o the_o only_a nor_o the_o necessary_a sign_n of_o dispossession_n for_o i_o know_v diverse_a have_v be_v wrought_v without_o they_o but_o i_o frame_v my_o reason_n thus_o where_o these_o sign_n be_v &_o a_o present_a deliverance_n do_v follow_v from_o those_o &_o former_a vexation_n by_o satan_n upon_o the_o request_n of_o god_n his_o people_n that_o there_o be_v a_o disposs_a ssion_n i_o confess_v these_o sign_n particular_o may_v be_v in_o diverse_a disease_n but_o they_o be_v not_o from_o the_o devil_n neither_o be_v there_o a_o present_a restore_n of_o the_o party_n disease_v in_o natural_a sickness_n upon_o the_o use_n of_o earnest_a prayer_n those_o mean_n for_o dispossession_n which_o you_o stand_v upon_o et●_n pag_n 244_o et●_n i_o allow_v not_o they_o be_v not_o ring_n rootes_n nor_o herb_n that_o be_v of_o any_o avayle_n in_o this_o work_n neither_o do_v we_o urge_v the_o fish_n liver_n nor_o david_n harp_n nor_o the_o music_n wherewith_o elishas_n spirit_n be_v calm_v and_o therefore_o all_o this_o as_o superfluous_a talk_n nothing_o perteyninge_v to_o this_o cause_n i_o omit_v but_o we_o cleave_v only_o to_o god_n his_o own_o ordinance_n of_o prayer_n holpen_v forward_o by_o the_o exercise_n of_o fast_v which_o according_a to_o his_o gracious_a promise_n &_o mercy_n we_o have_v prove_v to_o be_v effectual_a against_o which_o before_o you_o encounter_v with_o your_o full_a strength_n you_o sport_n yourselves_o with_o a_o profane_a scoff_v in_o the_o end_n of_o this_o dialogue_n 26●_n in_o page_n 26●_n and_o first_o you_o will_v needs_o wring_v from_o i_o whether_o i_o will_v or_o no_o that_o the_o work_v do_v at_o nottingham_n be_v do_v only_o by_o fast_v you_o be_v able_a to_o wring_v hercules_n his_o club_n out_o of_o his_o fist_n you_o have_v prove_v yourselves_o such_o exceed_a sharp_a logician_n in_o the_o former_a discourse_n that_o i_o stand_v in_o great_a fear_n of_o you_o yet_o now_o i_o must_v endure_v the_o brunt_n of_o it_o come_v what_o wil._n go_v to_o then_o bring_v forth_o your_o wringer_n this_o then_o be_v it_o that_o which_o make_v the_o prayer_n more_o forcible_a &_o the_o spirit_n more_o apt_a 258_o pag_n 257._o 258_o be_v the_o onli_a efficient_a cause_n of_o the_o suppose_a action_n but_o your_o fast_n make_v your_o prayer_n more_o forcible_a etc._n etc._n &_o therefore_o be_v the_o efficient_a cause_n of_o the_o action_n this_o be_v a_o wringer_n indeed_o if_o cardane_n be_v alive_a he_o will_v register_v this_o practical_a theorem_a in_o the_o book_n of_o his_o subtiltye_n what_o a_o profit_n will_v this_o proposition_n well_o understand_v bring_v to_o many_o artificer_n it_o will_v ease_v they_o of_o great_a expense_n in_o provide_v many_o tool_n the_o carpenter_n may_v spare_v his_o axe_n and_o chisel_n and_o go_v to_o fell_a timber_n square_a log_n and_o do_v his_o other_o work_n with_o his_o only_a whetstone_n for_o that_o which_o make_v the_o axe_n and_o chisell_n more_o forcible_a be_v the_o only_a efficient_a of_o the_o work_n and_o so_o by_o this_o unanswerable_a reason_n i_o be_o make_v a_o montanist_n a_o papist_n ●_o pag_n 257_o &_o ●_o &_o one_o that_o make_v fast_v a_o sufficient_a mean_n in_o itself_o for_o suppress_v of_o all_o suggest_a actual_a sin_n whatsoever_o which_o opinion_n though_o i_o be_o far_o from_o yet_o if_o you_o will_v follow_v my_o counsel_n m._n deacon_n for_o some_o thing_n that_o i_o know_v you_o shall_v fast_v more_o than_o you_o do_v 259_o page_n 259_o again_o you_o be_v instant_a to_o know_v if_o prayer_n be_v a_o mean_n in_o what_o order_n of_o mean_n i_o will_v place_v it_o not_o in_o that_o sure_a which_o you_o foolish_o fancy_n to_o yourselves_o for_o what_o child_n will_v esteem_v of_o prayer_n as_o a_o mere_a natural_a action_n 260_o page_n 260_o but_o this_o be_v suitable_a to_o your_o other_o blind_a ignorances_n further_o you_o argue_v that_o prayer_n can_v be_v no_o mean_n whether_o we_o respect_v the_o sound_n the_o voice_n or_o the_o word_n wherein_o you_o show_v yourselves_o no_o less_o void_a of_o piety_n than_o you_o have_v be_v hither_o to_o of_o wit_n and_o learning_n can_v you_o not_o be_v content_a to_o reproach_n i_o but_o you_o must_v needs_o open_v your_o mouth_n against_o the_o holy_a worship_n of_o god_n can_v you_o find_v no_o other_o cause_n wherefore_o prayer_n shall_v be_v effectual_a but_o only_o for_o a_o noise_n that_o be_v make_v or_o for_o some_o distinct_a voice_n or_o else_o for_o certain_a charm_a word_n in_o which_o of_o these_o respect_n consist_v the_o power_n of_o ordinary_a prayer_n you_o must_v needs_o answer_v it_o consist_v in_o none_o of_o they_o conclude_v then_o that_o ordinary_a prayer_n be_v but_o lip_n labour_n your_o audatiousnes_n be_v in_o tolerable_a in_o this_o 260._o page_n you_o carry_v yourselves_o more_o like_a atheist_n than_o preacher_n it_o be_v a_o shane_a your_o book_n be_v not_o better_o examine_v before_o it_o be_v allow_v to_o the_o press_n but_o thus_o have_v brandish_v your_o sword_n about_o your_o ear_n you_o make_v a_o end_n of_o this_o foolish_a talk_n and_o prepare_v yourselves_o to_o other_o as_o good_a a_o survey_n of_o the_o nine_o dialogue_n this_o dialogue_n aim_v at_o two_o point_n that_o prayer_n &_o fastinge_n be_v not_o establish_v by_o christ_n 263_o pag_n 263_o as_o a_o perpetual_a ordinary_a mean_n for_o powerful_a expel_v of_o devil_n that_o justify_v faith_n apprehend_v some_o supernatural_a power_n of_o god_n do_v not_o effect_v that_o work_n for_o the_o first_o the_o reader_n must_v take_v heed_n he_o understand_v not_o prayer_n and_o fast_v as_o i_o mean_v it_o and_o we_o all_o usual_o do_v for_o a_o effectual_a ordinance_n of_o god_n to_o quicken_v faith_n by_o which_o be_v our_o only_a apprehender_n of_o god_n his_o mercy_n in_o these_o and_o all_o other_o action_n but_o for_o a_o bare_a and_o mere_a naked_a performance_n of_o these_o work_n of_o fast_v &_o prayer_n for_o so_o these_o trifeler_n expound_v themselves_o 292._o page_n 292._o some_o fifteen_o leaf_n after_o which_o disputation_n may_v have_v have_v some_o use_n against_o papist_n that_o maintain_v their_o opus_fw-la operatum_fw-la a_o efficacy_n of_o the_o work_n do_v for_o the_o only_a work_n sake_n but_o in_o what_o stead_n can_v it_o serve_v against_o i_o it_o may_v be_v they_o intend_v it_o against_o papist_n these_o discourser_n propound_v to_o themselves_o the_o general_a doctrine_n of_o spirit_n but_o neither_o do_v their_o argument_n press_v they_o at_o all_o &_o beside_o they_o apply_v their_o who●e_a cou●●e_n of_o speech_n against_o that_o do_v at_o nottingham_n so_o then_o they_o dispute_v against_o i_o in_o word_n but_o not_o indeed_o thereby_o labour_v to_o deceive_v the_o reader_n not_o able_a as_o they_o think_v to_o di_fw-mi tinguish_v between_o these_o two_o if_o you_o have_v mean_v plain_o you_o will_v have_v show_v in_o what_o sense_n you_o have_v deal_v in_o this_o place_n but_o it_o be_v shameful_a to_o express_v it_o for_o so_o you_o shall_v have_v appear_v to_o all_o worthy_a to_o be_v hiss_v at_o and_o therefore_o you_o defer_v your_o explication_n till_o some_o thirty_o page_n after_o where_o no_o man_n will_v look_v for_o it_o that_o in_o the_o mean_a sea_n son_n you_o may_v seem_v to_o be_v talk_v and_o yet_o at_o last_o have_v a_o runninge_v knot_n on_o your_o juggle_a stick_n to_o pray_v fast_o and_o loo●e_v with_o at_o your_o pleasure_n shall_v any_o man_n bestow_v time_n against_o person_n of_o such_o perverse_a trade_n that_o be_v corrupt_v in_o their_o mind_n 6.5_o 1_o tim._n 6.5_o and_o be_v deprive_v of_o the_o truth_n i_o assure_v thou_o good_a reader_n every_o line_n seem_v a_o page_n unto_o i_o yet_o lest_o thou_o shall_v be_v deceive_v by_o these_o hu●sters_n deal_v i_o put_v myself_o to_o these_o pain_n well_o then_o to_o com●_n to_o the_o first_o point_n if_o you_o can_v say_v any_o thing_n wherefore_o fa_v a_o d_o prayer_n accompany_v with_o ●r●e_n t_o stify_v faith_n be_v not_o a_o perpetual_a mean_n ordain_v by_o christ_n for_o expel_v ●f_a devil_n let_v we_o hear_v what_o it_o be_v there_o be_v no_o commandment_n ay_o you_o or_o cannon_n any_o where_fw-mi exstant_fw-la in_o all_o the_o scripture_n for_o t●e_v approbation_n of_o it_o 264._o page_n 264._o because_o it_o seem_v you_o have_v be_v seek_v and_o can_v find_v none_o i_o will_v show_v you_o some_o our_o saviour_n teach_v we_o to_o pray_v and_o lead_v u●_n n●t_o into_o temptation_n but_o deliver_v we_o fr_n m_o evil_a do_v therein_o teach_v we_o to_o pray_v against_o actual_a possession_n it_o be_v a_o evil_a you_o confess_v where_o with_o many_o in_o his_o time_n and_o after_o be_v trouble_v neither_o
that_o sometime_o there_o be_v possession_n and_o that_o be_v possess_v except_o some_o scripture_n may_v be_v show_v for_o the_o abolish_n of_o it_o otherwise_o i_o say_v it_o remain_v still_o so_o as_o it_o either_o be_v or_o may_v be_v at_o this_o day_n 2._o pag_n 170._o a●gu_n 2._o in_o the_o second_o place_n you_o reason_n thus_o if_o no_o extraordinary_a power_n or_o mean_n for_o expel_v of_o devil_n remain_v perpetual_a than_o neither_o possession_n itself_o remain_v perpetual_a but_o the_o first_o say_v you_o be_v true_a therefore_o the_o second_o ans_fw-fr 29_o 1._o math_n 17.11_o mark_n 9_o 29_o the_o proposition_n be_v false_a because_o there_o be_v not_o only_o a_o extraordinary_a mean_n for_o the_o expelling_a of_o devil_n which_o be_v temporary_a cease_v with_o miracle_n but_o besides_o a_o ordinary_a mean_n particular_o &_o by_o name_n appoint_v for_o the_o dispossess_v of_o devil_n which_o remain_v until_o this_o day_n and_o be_v perpetual_a yea_o have_v we_o no_o such_o particular_a ordinance_n yet_o notwithstanding_o we_o may_v at_o this_o day_n have_v remedy_n against_o this_o extraordinary_a evil_n call_v upon_o i_o say_v god_n in_o the_o day_n of_o trouble_n &_o i_o will_v deliver_v thou_o whatsoever_o you_o shall_v ask_v my_o father_n say_v our_o saviour_n in_o my_o name_n that_o he_o will_v give_v unto_o you_o pray_v always_o say_v s._n paul_n what_o only_o in_o ordinary_a necessity_n or_o else_o in_o extraordinary_a too_o but_o yet_o without_o comfort_n of_o obtain_v have_v the_o lord_n bind_v himself_o from_o all_o extraordinary_a visitation_n till_o the_o end_n of_o the_o world_n or_o if_o any_o unwonted_a thing_n shall_v happen_v be_v the_o church_n destitute_a of_o all_o remedy_n again_o we_o have_v no_o extraordinary_a power_n remain_v wherewith_o to_o cure_v palsye_n fever_n and_o other_o disease_n sometime_o so_o cure_v and_o yet_o notwithstanding_o the_o say_a disease_n at_o this_o day_n remain_v and_o why_o may_v not_o as_o well_o this_o disease_n be_v now_o notwithstanding_o we_o have_v no_o extraordinary_a power_n wherewith_o to_o heal_v it_o who_o will_v vouchsafe_v to_o spend_v time_n with_o such_o disputer_n then_o to_o come_v to_o your_o second_o proposition_n let_v we_o hear_v your_o proof_n because_o say_v you_o extraordinary_a power_n of_o cast_v out_o devil_n be_v peculiarlie_o appropriate_v to_o christ_n &_o his_o own_o disciple_n which_o be_v a_o loud_a untruth_n 17._o mark_v 16_o 17._o understand_v disciple_n as_o you_o do_v only_o for_o the_o apostle_n do_v not_o our_o lord_n say_v these_o sign_n shall_v follow_v those_o that_o believe_v in_o my_o name_n they_o shall_v cast_v out_o devil_n etc._n etc._n of_o who_o speak_v he_o this_o of_o his_o own_o disciple_n or_o of_o the_o seaventie_o it_o be_v most_o manifest_a he_o speak_v of_o those_o which_o shall_v believe_v by_o their_o preach_n we_o stand_v not_o upon_o a_o extraordinary_a power_n for_o expel_v of_o satan_n &_o therefore_o i_o may_v well_o have_v let_v this_o proposition_n pass_v but_o that_o i_o will_v let_v you_o see_v your_o not_o extraordinary_a but_o ordinary_a blindness_n 3_o pag_n 176_o arg._n 3_o but_o to_o let_v this_o pass_v your_o three_o argument_n conclude_v thus_o thing_n in_o themselves_o perpetual_o exist_v have_v in_o themselves_o a_o ordinary_a &_o continual_a work_n but_o possession_n of_o devil_n in_o these_o day_n of_o the_o gospel_n be_v in_o itself_o neither_o ordinary_a nor_o continual_o work_v &_o therefore_o in_o these_o day_n there_o be_v no_o poss_a ssion_n exist_v i_o answer_v that_o perpetual_a exi_n be_v twofould_v natural_a and_o positive_a thing_n natural_a which_o have_v a_o inseparable_a operation_n accompany_v they_o so_o long_o as_o they_o have_v a_o exi_a must_v needs_o also_o have_v a_o continual_a work_n as_o the_o fire_n must_v needs_o heat_v the_o water_n moisten_v etc._n etc._n in_o this_o sense_n i_o do_v not_o say_v that_o possession_n be_v perpetual_o exist_v for_o then_o evermore_o some_o shall_v be_v possess_v which_o be_v far_o from_o my_o thought_n but_o that_o man_n now_o and_o hereafter_o even_o to_o the_o world_n end_n may_v be_v possess_v when_o and_o as_o oft_o as_o the_o lord_n shall_v please_v in_o such_o manner_n that_o be_v with_o this_o kind_n of_o correction_n to_o chastise_v man_n as_o appear_v by_o that_o here_o follow_v thing_n positive_a be_v such_o as_o not_o by_o nature_n but_o by_o ordinance_n have_v their_o power_n and_o efficacy_n of_o which_o sort_n be_v law_n and_o constitution_n which_o once_o enact_v have_v present_o exist_v yet_o notwithstanding_o for_o want_v of_o execution_n that_o sleep_v perhaps_o upon_o diverse_a occasion_n for_o many_o year_n have_v not_o their_o continual_a work_n now_o possession_n be_v a_o punishment_n of_o sin_n and_o a_o ordinance_n of_o god_n be_v of_o the_o second_o kind_n wherein_o if_o one_o shall_v exa●t_v one_o usual_a course_n to_o be_v practise_v every_o moment_n without_o cease_v it_o be_v as_o much_o as_o to_o prescribe_v the_o lord_n &_o appoint_v he_o when_o and_o how_o he_o shall_v inflict_v his_o judgment_n what_o be_v to_o have_v a_o more_o perpetual_a exist_v among_o the_o people_n of_o t_o e_o jew_n than_o the_o religion_n of_o god_n in_o those_o holy_a rite_n &_o ceremony_n which_o himself_o have_v give_v from_o heaven_n of_o what_o be_v they_o to_o expect_v a_o more_o constant_a and_o continual_a succession_n then_o of_o their_o prophet_n 18.15.16_o deut._n 18.15.16_o the_o lord_n have_v promise_v he_o will_v rais●_n they_o up_o a_o prophet_n like_a to_o moses_n in_o whose_o mouth_n he_o will_v put_v hi●_n w●rdes_n yet_o we_o know_v what_o long_a interruption_n oft_o be_v make_v by_o the_o idolatry_n of_o the_o people_n the_o wickedness_n of_o their_o king_n and_o at_o the_o last_o their_o deserve_a captivity_n insomuch_o that_o the_o prophet_n complain_v we_o see_v not_o our_o sign_n there_o be_v not_o one_o prophet_n m_o re_fw-mi nor_o any_o with_o we_o that_o know_v h●w_o long_o 74.9_o psal_n 74.9_o yea_o from_o malachy_n till_o john_n bapt_n st_o what_o long_a and_o deep_a silence_n be_v the●e_n as_o if_o the_o lord_n promise_n have_v be_v fa_o len_a to_o the_o ground_n so_o in_o the_o christian_a church_n during_o all_o the_o reign_n of_o antichrist_n have_v not_o the_o truth_n lyen_fw-we hide_v in_o the_o wilderness_n as_o if_o it_o have_v be_v utter_o extinct_a &_o depart_v from_o the_o earth_n the_o papist_n cry_v out_o upon_o we_o to_o show_v the_o visible_a tra●t_n of_o our_o church_n and_o you_o will_v help_v they_o with_o armour_n if_o this_o may_v be_v grant_v that_o thing_n perpetual_o exi_v by_o ordinance_n shall_v also_o have_v a_o continual_a work_n i_o hope_v nothing_o aught_o to_o be_v more_o perpetual_a than_o faith_n ●et_o our_o saviour_n demand_v whether_o at_o his_o come_a h●_n shall_v find_v it_o on_o the_o earth_n ●_o luk._n 18._o ●_o the_o second_o proposition_n also_o be_v worthy_o prove_v for_o whereas_o you_o shall_v show_v that_o possession_n have_v no_o rdinary_a work_n ●ou_fw-mi tell_v us._n it_o be_v now_o adays_o so_o unwonted_a and_o so_o ra●e_v ●n_v experience_n as_o very_o hardly_o it_o be_v hear_v of_o in_o twenty_o y●●res_n space_n 17●_n pag_n 17●_n ad●it_fw-la this_o i_o hope_v if_o it_o be_v hear_v of_o in_o twenty_o ●eares_n it_o be_v not_o a_o matter_n so_o strange_a for_o the_o day_n of_o the_o gospel_n as_o ●ou_n will_v make_v it_o neither_o be_v twenty_o year_n space_n such_o a_o discontinuance_n but_o that_o you_o may_v as_o well_o conclude_v the_o leprosy_n the_o cancer_n the_o apoplexy_n &_o be_v i_o other_o rare_a disease_n do_v all_o likewise_o determine_v with_o the_o apostle_n time_n the_o four_o argument_n follow_v the_o manifestation_n of_o christ_n his_o deity_n arg._n 4_o 5._o pa●_n 179_o &_o ans_fw-fr 5_o 5._o a_o ●_o the_o confirmation_n of_o his_o glorious_a gospel_n be_v the_o main_a cause_n of_o poss_n ss_z ●n_n in_o christ_n his_o time_n these_o cause_n be_v c_o ase_v long_o since_o how_o shall_v th●_n effect_v itself_o be_v still_o continue_v ans_fw-fr this_o objection_n i_o have_v already_o answer_v in_o the_o doctrine_n pag._n 30_o 31._o 32_o where_o i_o show_v t●at_a except_o these_o two_o be_v the_o only_a ●_z of_o p●ss_a ss●on_n notw_o thstand_v the_o cease_n of_o these_o cause_n p_o ss●ss_v on_o may_v remain_v s●_n lo_n g_o as_o a_o other_o cause_n thereof_o remain_v to_o wit_n sin_n that_o these_o be_v n●t_v the_o sole_a cause_n you_o you_o self_n d●●i_fw-la esse_fw-la confess_v in_o call_v they_o the_o main●_n cause_n and_o the_o ma●n●_n e●●s_v ●f_o p●ss_a ss●on_n &_o in_o affirm_v that_o th●_n p●ss_v ssion_n of_o devil_n be_v especial_o for_o th●se_a two_o end_n indeed_o in_o your_o answer_n page_n 67._o contradict_v yourselves_o you_o say_v these_o be_v the_o two_o only_a