Donatisme pag. 622 The Replyer put to the proofe of his ceremonies 614 The Replier tripped in his own net pag. 693 T. C. teacheth S. Augustine to speak pag. 609 The marke that the Replyer shoteth at 56 The drift of the Replier 315 T. C. forsaketh the Apostolical form in Election 193. 195 ¶ Telesphorus a good Bishop 6 2 ¶ Theodoret had gouernement of 800. churches 415. 472 Theodoret of Chrysostome 412 ¶ Thracia annexed to the Archbisshoprike of Constantinople 413 ¶ Of these wordes Take thou eate thou 600 ¶ Diuersitie of Tymes require a diuerse gouernement c. 174. c. ¶ Timothies authoritie 401 Timothie Bishop of Ephesus 404 c. 470. Timothie oft absent from Ephesus pag. 236 The iurisdiction that Timothie vsed in some respect ciuill 769 ¶ Titus Archbishop of Creta 325. 400. 431. 470. ¶ Titles of dignitie in ministers not Antichristian 353 Honorable Titles of Bishops 448 Men called by vndeserued Titles 70 71. Titles in the church vnder the lawe whereof God is not the expresse author 304 ¶ The othe of the fellowes of Trinitie Colledge in Cambridge 1. 235. Trinitie Colledge and the fellowes deliuered frō the slaunderous Replye 745 ¶ The maintenance of Truth as necessarie as the suppression of errours 496 ¶ It is not better to frame our ceremonies to Turkes than to papists pag. 471 V. ¶ Vanitie 351 ¶ Omne verum à spiritu Sancto est pag. 551. 552 ¶ Vicars or substitutes 681 ¶ Victor a good Bishop 510 ¶ Vix what it importeth 796 ¶ Vniuersitie landes stand on the same pinne with Bishops 452. ¶ Vse of things wickedly inuented pag. 273. c. Priuate vse of Idolatrous things forbidden 272 Common vse of Idolatrous things page 273 The vse and abuse of things indifferent 276 ¶ Vsurpe both in Ministring and preaching offend God 520 W ¶ VVa er cakes 596 ¶ VVatchmen and Sheapheards 220 237. ¶ The weake not offended with apparell 〈◊〉 In what sort of indifferent thinges we ought to respect the weake 258. ¶ VVhoremongers in the visible Church 1 ¶ VVickednesse of men causeth not lawes to be euill 1 4 ¶ VVidowes 6 ¶ VVine and Bread consecrated too Idols 275. 276 ¶ Froward wittes 481 ¶ VVhen a woman maye preach Christ. 50 The cause of the VVomans absence from the Church after her deliuerance 53 The VVomans vayle 53 ¶ Strife about wordes proper to q rell rs 5 ¶ VVhat it is to adde and to take away from the VVord 1 Difference betwixt the worshipping of the true God falsly and 〈◊〉 Gods 27 ¶ Mens writings read in the chur pag. 7 The occasion and circumstances of mens writings must bee considered 114. 292 Z ¶ Zuinfildians condemne reading pag. 252. 569. 71 ¶ The Zeale of the Replier 36 Preposterous Zeale 48 The Printer to the Readers I could not be but that in so great a volume some things should escape euen those that are diligent and carefull I especially considering the speedie dispatch and other circumstances notwithstanding if before you enter to reade this booke you will take the paynes to mende these faulces with your pen the rest being lighter will not greately stay your course in reading or otherwise alter the sense and meaning Fare you well Pag. 2. line 8. reade plainly Pag. 21. line 22. for priuately reade priu ly Pag. 50. line vlti for I speake not of their opinions reade I speake not of all their opinions Pag. 62. line 38 reade in these Pag. 67. line 37. for or reade for Pag. 78. line 34. reade and seeking helpe of the Egyptians Pag. 104. lin 22. for abiunde reade aliunde Pag. 124. line 45. reade Is homo Pag. 191. line 45. for worde reade wordes Pag. 244. line 13. reade in the euill day Pag. 252. lin 46. for any confession reade my confession pag. 253 lin 7. reade Chap. 1. pag. 254. line 13. reade chap. 1. and line 48. reade Chap. 2. pag. 304. in y ◠margēt reade wherof God pag. 349. line 29. for and reade as pag. 448. line 32. reade 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pag. 468. lin 46. for his own reade this one pa. 481. lin 32. for more reade moue pag. 508. lin 1. reade encomber the Answerer pag. 523. lin 25. reade conuentur pag. 536. line 20. for yll read it pag. 537. lin 42. for those read this pag. 541. line 21. for constraine read restreyne pag. 661. line 20. read thus election of ministers is no correctiō of vice neither yet is the deciding c. pag. 663. line 53. for there reade therefore pag. 665. in the margent for eternal reade externall pag 685. lin 6. reade the. 11. diuision pag. 708. line vit for rather reade either pag. 722. line vlt. adde this heaping vp of scriptures shewe me one place in this epistle yea in pag. 731. line 41. for seruice reade sorow pag. 803. lin 7. reade Gods worde pag. 806. line 4. reade of defiance salued pag. 810. line 41. reade fi ¶ To the Churche of Englande and all those that loue the truth in it T. C. vvisheth mercie and peace from God our Father and from our Lorde Iesus Christe AS our men doe more willingly go to warfare and fighte with greater courage agaynst straungers than agaynst their Countreymen so it is with me in this spirituall warfare For I woulde haue wished that this controuersie had beene with the Papistes or with ether if any can be more pestilent and professed e mes of the Churche for that should haue beene lesse griefe to write and more conuenient to perswade that which I desire For as the very name of an enimie dothe kindle the desire of fighting and styrreth vp the care of prepa ng the furniture for the warre So I can not tell howe it commeth to passe that the name of a brother aketh that courage and abateth that carefulnesse whiche sheuld be bestowed in defence of the truthe But seeing the truthe ought not to be forsaken for any mans cause ▪ I enforced my selfe considering that if the Lorde mighte lay to my charge that I was not for certayne considerations so readie as I ought to haue beene to publishe the truthe he mighte more iustly condemne me if beeing oppugned and slaundered by others I shoulde not according to that measure which he hath dealte vnto me and for my small habilitie defende it and delyuer it from the euill reporte that some endeuour to bring vpon it An Answere to the Epistle dedicated by T. C. to the Churche of Englande c. IT doth not appeare by the style and maner of writing vsed in this your booke that there remayneth any portion of suche naturall affection or brotherly loue in you as you would beare the world in hand and séeme to haue by these your wordes For if you should haue written against the veriest Papist in the world the vilest person the ignorantest dolt you could not haue vsed a more spitefull and malicious more slaunderous and reprochfull more contemptuous and disdaynfull kinde of
confidently auouching that which you cannot proue The distribution of the cuppe in the Lordes supper is commaunded in manifest and expresse woordes as a parte of the Supper but you cannot shew me the like commaundement that only a minister shall celebrate Baptisme or els that it is no Baptisme We know that circumcision the figure of Baptisme was ministred sometimes by such as were no Priests and yet right and true circumcision Chap. 5. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 1. And for as much as S. Paule sayth that a man cannot preach which is not sent (*) This is added to the text no not Rom. 10. although he speake the wordes of the scripture and interprete them so I cannot see how a man can baptise vnlesse that he be sent to that end although he poure water and rehearse the wordes which are to be rehearsed in the ministrie of baptisme Io. Whitgifte S. 〈◊〉 in that 10. chapt to the Rom. speaketh of the extraordinarie calling to the office of preaching so sayeth M. Martyr in his Commentaries vpon this place Martyr And although Paule intreateth in this place of calling and sending and this is as I sayde ordinarie and extraordinarie there is no doubt but that he nowe speaketh of the extraordinarie calling c. And M. Caluine lykewise vpon the same place sayeth that Paule Caluine doth not there speake De legitima cuius que vocatione of the lawfull calling of euery man Wherefore if you will grounde any such reason vpon this place it muste be thus S. Paule sayth that a man cannot preach which is not sent and he meaneth of an extraordinarie sending therefore no man may preach vnlesse he be extraordinarily called therevnto and so consequently not minister baptisme except he be called in like manner If you will reason thus then do you cōfirme the baptizing by laye men who do it not ordinarily but extraordinarily vpon necessitie S. Paule doth not say that a man cannot preach which is not sente no not although he The Replier addeth to the text and for what purpose speaketh the wordes of the scripture and interprete them These wordes be so added by you that the simple and ignorant may thinke they be the woordes of S. Paule He that speaketh the wordes of the scripture and doth interprete them preacheth though he be not there vnto called and it is the true woorde of God he preacheth if he truly interprete but he intrudeth himselfe into a vocation where vnto he is not called and therefore Usurpers both in preaching and ministring the Sacraments offend God offendeth God but that doth derogate nothing from the woorde preached The same reason is of the administration of the Sacramentes for as the woorde of God is the woorde of God by whom so euer it be preached minister or other so is the Sacrament of Baptisme true baptisme by whom soeuer it be celebrated the vsurper of the office hath to answere for his intrusion but the Sacrament is not thereby defiled It is no harde matter to shew that in the primitiue Church laye men were suff d Lay men su fred to preach Euseb. lib. 6. cap. 20. to preach you know that Euseb. sayeth that Origene being a lay man was sent into Arabia to preach the Gospell which he also did both before after in the Church of Alexandria and likewise in Cesarea And although Demetrius then Bishop of Alexandria founde faulte that Origene beyng a laye man shoulde preache in the presence of Bishops at Cesarea Yet is it manifest that he allowed laye men to preach if Bishops were not present And in the same chapt by diuers examples it is shewed as of Euelpis at Laranda of Paulinus at Iconium of Theodorus at Synada that the custome of the Churches both then and before that time was that laye men might preach euen in the presence of Bishops so that you haue erred both in applying the place of S. Paule and in saying that laye men may not preache the woorde vpon occasion and so consequently Baptise Chap. 5. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 114. Sect. 1. I know there be diuers (*) The more to blame you are without proo to enter into such difficulties difficulties in this question and therefore I was soth to enter into it but that the Answerer setteth downe so considently that it maketh no matter for the truthe of baptisme whether he be minister or no minister and so whether one haue a calling or no calling wherein notwithstanding he doth not onely by his often handling of one thing confounde his reader but himselfe also and forgetteth that he is in an other question than which is propounded For although it should be graūced him that the sacrament doth not depende vpon that yet hath he not that (a) This is no intended which he would haue that women may baptise for it is one thing to say the baptisme which is ministred by women is good and effectuall and an other thing to say that it is lawfull for women to minister baptisme For there is no man doubteth but that the baptisme which is ministred by an hereticall minister is effectuall and yet I thinke that M. Doctor will not say that therefore an hereticall minister may baptise and that it is lawfull for Herctikes to baptise in the Churche And therfore men must not only take hede as M. Doctor sayth that they vsurpe not that which they are not called vnto but they must also take heede that they receyue not functions and charges vpon them whereof they are not capable although they be therevnto called Io. Whitgifte There are mo difficulties in this question than you can wel determine and therfore it had bene beste eyther not to haue spoken of it at all or els to haue handled it more substantially but the scarcitie of matter and reasons argueth the weakenesse and fayntnesse of the cause I passe ouer your woordes I go not aboute to proue that women may baptise onely I withstande this errour that the Substance and beyng of the Sacramentes dependeth vpon the man in any respect I say that baptisme ministred Baptisme true baptisme though vulawfully ministred by women is true Baptisme though it be not lawfull for women to baptise as the baptisme also ministred by heretiks is true baptisme though they be vsurpers of that office And the same S. Augustine affirmeth of baptisme by laye men in the place August lib. 2. contr Epist. Parmea ca. 13. before alleaged Although sayeth he it be vsurped without necessitie and is giuen of any man to any man that which is giuen cannot be sayde not to be giuen although it may be rightly sayde not to be rightly giuen And I further say that if the baptisime ministred by hereticall ministers which be no members of the Churche be notwithstanding good and effectuall I sée no cause why it should not be so rather if it be ministred by laye men which are members
An other reason you frame on this sorte If the mynister haue both ciuill and Ecclesiasticall power ▪ men should not be able to iudge in their consciences of the mightie operation of the worde of God in them for they might doubt whether the feare of the outward shewe of the minister carried The Repliers argument siniteth as well at the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 magistrate as at the Ecclesiasticall some stroke with them c. This is as vayne an imagination as is the other and they both may as aptly be applied agaynst the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate as agaynst the ciuill iurisdiction of the minister yea in déede they serue to the ouerthrow of all kinde of ciuill punishment For if the Magistrate make sharpe lawes for comming to the Churche hearing the woorde of God contemning religion and such like men that by such meanes are driuen to heare the woorde of God c. so at the length conuerted may doubt whether the woorde hath wrought this in them or the feare of outwarde punishment Do you not marke how he still smiteth at the Magistrate Percey te you not how neare he approcheth to the opinion of the Anabaptistes who would haue no kinde of discipline in the Church but only excommunication God vseth corporall punishment as a meanes to saluation But to Answere you briefly God vseth corporall punishments as a meanes to driue ▪ euen the elect to the hearing of the worde of God to honestie of lyfe He vseth it also to brydle the wicked that by their exāples other men might learne to beware and that they themselues also may be kepte in order And no man that is truly conuerted by the preaching of the woorde can doubt but that God by the working of his spirite thorough the ministerie of his woorde hath wrought that good in him though by externall meanes as feare of punishment and such lyke he was first as it were enforced to heare the woorde and to kéepe himselfe in order In deede if these reasons of yours were of any force the Magistrate might put vp his sworde especially in Ecclesiasticall matters and so might the minister lay aside his authoritie also least any thing be ascribed there vnto Your glaunce that this was also the pollicy of the Idolaters though you haue no where proued it yet haue I answered it before Chap. 3. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. vlt. But M. Doctor sayth that ciuill offices are not to be counted worldly affayres but heauenly and spirituall ▪ it is so and yet when they are compared with the Ecclesiasticall offices they may be called secular offices for so much as they to gether with the care of religion procure and prouide for the things whereby we may quietly and commodiously liue here where the Ecclesiasticall offices are immediatly and onely bente to procure the glory of God and the saluation of men and in that signification of heauenly and spirituall which you take marchandise husbandry and the handycrafte be heauenly and spirituall although not in the same degree All lawfull callinges came from God and returne to him agayne that is he is both author of them and they ought to be referred to his glory so that if the mynister may exercise all things which be heauenly and spirituall you may as well bryng him downe to the plough as promote him to the court Io. Whitgifte I call them Ecclesiasticall bycause they perteyne to the inwarde man to the The cluill iurisdiction now vsed is in some respect ecclesiasticall reformation of manners to the punishment of sinne to the mayntenance of Religion to the quietnesse of the Churche and good order in the same so do not all cyuill offices much lesse husbandry marchandise handycraftes goyng to the plough and suche lyke whiche onely perteyne to the body and to this lyfe not beyng referred to the endes that I haue before named Wherefore here your wittes fayled you and I looke for a better Answere Chap. 3. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Lin. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 M. Doctor sayth that the office of a commissioner is Ecclesiasticall bycause it handleth Ecclesiasticall causes I maruell that he is so ignorant that he can not put a difference betwene giuing iudiciail sentences and appoynting bodely punishments whiche are meere ciuill and betweene the vnderstanding the truth of euery such cause according as the worde of God defineth of it which is a thing common as well vnto the magistrate as vnto the mynister wherein the mynister bycause he ought to be most ready ought if neede be consulted with Io. Whitgifte Surely I thinke you scarse vnderstande your selfe for if the causes be Ecclesiasticall why may not the punishment by the Magistrate appoynted vnto them be executed by Ecclesiasticall persons hauing authoritie from the Prince by commission so to do and if the Ecclesiasticall person may giue sentence and iudgement in these Ecclesiastical causes why may he not consent also to the punishments appointed for the same I do not meane he should be the Iaylor or tormentor himselfe but to iudge the person offending worthy of this or that kinde of punishment and to giue sentence of the crime that he hath committed to determine of the cause that is called into iudgement Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 1. An other of M. Doctors reasons is that as kinges do serue Christe by makyng lawes for him so Bishops do serue Christe by executyng lawes for him as though it perteyned not vnto the Magistrates to execute lawes as well as to make them and as if the magistrate were not therefore called a speaking lawe bycause by executing them he dothe cause the lawes after a fashion to speake This is to deuide the stake of the magistrate betweene him and the Bishop yea to gyue the Byshop the best parte of it For we know that with vs the people be at making of the lawes which may not meddle with the execution of them And if M. Doctor say that he meaneth not hereby to shut the Prince from executing the lawes then as his similitude when it is at the best proueth nothing so by this meanes it halts downe right and is no similitude Io. Whitgifte The Prince executeth his lawes by himselfe he also executeth them by other to whome he hath giuen that authoritie for the fuller and better execution of them in this number are the Bishops for the authoritie they haue in suche matters they haue from the Prince and therefore their executing of it is not to deuide stake with the Cyuill Magistrate but to do good seruice both to God and the Magistrate Chap. 3. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 217. Sect 1. 2. What say you to Elye and Samuell were they not both Priests Samuell priest iudge and iudges what office did the Prophete Elias execute when he killed the false prophets of Baal 1. Reg. 18. or Christ when he whipt the
Sacramentes that cannot preache 4 Sacraments ministred in priuate pla ces 511. c. Doctrine tending to the derogation of Sacraments 524 Necessitie of saluation not tyed too Sacraments 52 5 4 The lyfe of Sacramentes dependeth not of preaching 566 Euery one muste applye the Sacrament to himself 601 The Sacramentes purely ministred pag. 606 Sacramentes receyue the name of things signified 608 VVhat is required to the making of a Sacrament 618 The proper signification of Sacraments 618 Outvvard Sacraments giue not grace pag. 73 Sacramentall signes 738 Euery thing signifying is not a Sacrament 291. 617. 618 ¶ Saintes dayes 543. c. VVhy the names of Saintes are gyuen to our lydayes 543 ¶ Saunders the Replier agree 695 ¶ Sceuola 708 Scarse the face of a church vvhat it implyeth 795 ¶ Scripture abused to coloure slate y pag. 10 Scripture alledged for the proofe of the phrase 22 The abusing of Scripture is too bee maintayned in none 22 Shiftes to coloure the vnapt allegation of Scripture 22 Scripturs vvrested and abused by the Admonition 58. 59. 61. 73. 128. 251. 261. 454. 460. 463. 655. 687. 752. Scripture wrested by T. C. 83. 84. 85. Scripture vnskilfully and fondly alleadged by T. C. 89. 90. 92. 172. 2 297. 374. 592. Canonicall Scripture onely perfect pag. 74 VVhat is said to be expressed in Scripture 77 VVherein the Scripture is sufficient pag. 7 VVhat things the scripture hath not expressed 83 Howe the Scripture conteyneth all things incident to the life of man pag. 84 ¶ Schismatikes 41 Schismarikes deserue to be sharpely reproued 778 Schismaticall meetings aptly called conuenticies 41 Schismaticall meetings not sufferable 41 ¶ Seniors and Seigniorie 626. c. The gouernment of Seniors ought to be perpetuall 633. c The office ascribed to Seniors depriueth the Magistrate of his authoritie 635. 643 The office of Seniors not commaun ded 637. 644 Difference betwixt necessitie of Pastors and of Seniors 644 Ieromes Seigniorie or Presbyterie pag. 652 Inconueniēces of the Seigniorie 657 c. VVhether Seniors were in euery con gregation 626. c. ¶ Sermons of the same nature with Hou ies 718 Seniors ▪ Looke Preachers ¶ A prescript forme of seruice 488. c. ¶ Shiftes of the Replier 293. 399. 418. 429. 462. 547. ¶ Sheapheard 220. 221. 237. 238. ¶ Things meere ciuil may haue signi fication 291 ¶ God vseth not the simple only 10 set sorth the truth 10 ¶ Similitudes weake arguments 220 ¶ A Sillogisme without al forme 316 ¶ Symcon Archbishop 341. 471 ¶ Singing used in all reformed churches 606 Singing of Psalmes by course 740. ¶ Singularitie and prope s therof pag. 14 ¶ Sitting at the cōmunion 597. c. ¶ If the Skie fal we may catch Larks pag. 465 ¶ Slaunderers are not the generation of Christ. 17 Slaunders 449. 558. 704. 739. 744. ¶ Socrates a fauorer of the Nouatians 350 Socrates doings agreable to our time pag. 350 ¶ Stephens oration a Sermon 584 Stephanus a good Bishop inuented the apparell 272 ¶ Subiects animated against authoritie 267 ¶ Of subscribing to the communion Booke 709. c. ¶ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 304. 663 ¶ The office of the speaker or mode rator 393 ¶ A sparing restraint 490 ¶ Superioritie among the Apostles pag. 37 Superioritie conuenient among Ministers 388 Caluine alloweth Superioritie 390. 467. ¶ Superstition in garments condemned 277 ¶ The Sword that Christ sendeth is not betweene the faithfull 34 The sword of Discipline necessary pag. 56 ¶ Supremacie of the Queene secretly denied 801 T ¶ The feast of tabernacles obserued since losua 9 ¶ Tēples of Idols cōuerted to churches 274 ¶ T. C. ascribeth his own deuise to the Apostles 674 T. C. maketh greater accompt of the gonernment than of the Gospel pag. 7. 82 T. C. ioyneth with the papistes concerning the Princes authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters 7. 377. 694. c. T. C. alleageth Iosias for Ezechias 10 T. C. alleageth Gregorie for George pag. 447 T. C. charged with vntruth 8. 69. 70 74. 77. 99. 103. 15 158. 163. 166. 186 188. 205 207. 209. 226. 262. 280 332 337. 342 344. 345. 346. 347. 356. 366. 377. 383. 385. 412. 413. 415. 422. 435. 441. 443. 446. 451. 459. 462. 487. 501. 522. 545. 611. 618. 637. 651. 669. 673. 680. 682. 718. 731 8 6. T. C. peruerteth the wordes meaning of the Aunswere 17. 117. 130. T. C. chargeth the Aunswer falsely 24. 25. 28. 29. 30. 31. 35. 36. 89. 92 93. 111. 112. 130. 153. 164. 188. 196. 197 198. 200. 253. 321. 352. 366. 418. 461. 466. 487. 516. 585. 586. 593. 630. 631 651. 704. T. C. contrary to the Admonition 3 88. 530. 605. T. C. bringeth places against himselfe 160. 179. 184. 185. 186. 187. 378. 430 442. 542 697. 698. 759. T. C. reasoneth against himselfe 130 T. C. contrary to himselfe 46. 88. 138. 151. 173. 329. 372. 400. 430. 439. 458 502. 517. 533. 566. 604. 718. 740. 784 T. C. inconstant 614 T. C. desireth that which hee hath sought to hinder 16 The vaine excuses of T. C. why hee hath not set down the Answer the true causes thereof 16 The presumption of the Replier 622 T. C. altereth the state of the coutrouersie 44. 100. 768 T. C. setteth the Fathers by the eares without cause 102 T. C. iustifieth the Answere 120 T. C. accuseth learned men of contra rietie 114 T. C. tendeth to Iudaisme 120. 169. T. C. fetcheth cōmaundements out of the ceremoniall lawe 167. 592. T. C. depraueth learned men when he cannot answere them 146. 191. 369. 377. 402. 410. 415 526. 785. T. C. suppresseth the words against him 184 T. C. pusheth at the Ciuil Magistrate couertly 157. 650 T. C. bendeth his force against a Mo narchie 641 647 T. C. vseth only papistes reasons against the Princes supremacie 694 c. The Repliers arguments strike aswel at the Ciuill Magistrate as at the Ecclesiasticall 765 T. C. speaketh suspiciously of Gouernement 389 T. C. Tripped in that he chargeth others 193 T. C. pretending Scripture bringeth that whiche hath no warrant in scriprure 173. 425 T. C. vseth popish corrupt authorities 223. 247. 442 T. C. seeketh immunitie from lawes pag. 266 VVhy T. C. bēdeth his force against those in authoritie in the church pag. 299 T. C. addeth to the text 520 The Replyer had rather conforme himself to the Iewes than to this Church 730 T. C. forgetteth himself 733 T. C. must eyther dissent from Beza or graunt the controuersie 759 T. C. consesseth the grounde of the controuersies 768 T. C maketh Caluine contrary too himself but vntruly 785 T. C. requireth that of others that he persormeth not himselfe 799 The cause why T. C. ioineth against degrees in Diuinitie 78 T. C. preferreth his iudgemente too Councels 365 T. C. answered by his owne wordes 263. 306. 307. 309. 371. T. C. appealeth from auncient authoritie 547 The Doctrine of the Replier tendeth to Anabaptisme 566. 567. 622. 626. The Replyer neere to
no such weight then can you not excuse eyther your selfe or them In déed the Papists haue no iust matter of reioycing for they disagrée both in me also in far greater matters thā these be euen in y e chiefest points of their religion but this is no sufficient excuse for vs we may not disagrée in truth bicause they disagrée in error Neither ought the weak to be offended bicause such cōtentions haue bin vsual in the Church as I haue also shewed in myne Epistle dedicatorie to the Churche of England But yet wo be vnto those by whome suche offences come T. C. And it is to be remembred that these controuersies for the most part are not betwene many For sundry of those things which are cōprehended in the answer to the Admonition haue as I am persuaded few fauorers of those especially which are of any stayed or soūder iudgement in y e scriptures and haue sene or red of the gouernment and order of other Churches so that in deed the father of that answere excepted we haue this controuersie oftentimes rather with the Papistes than with those whiche professe the Gospell as we doe Io. Whitgifte Certainly I do not willingly defend any thing against the word of God or of mine own priuate persuasion but I haue either sufficient warrant of the worde of God or some godly lerned zelous authors iudgement for the same If I haue done otherwise I trust I shal heare of it in this booke but I am fully persuaded that all men of stayed and sound iudgement ioyne with me in these matters such especially as haue had the beste experience of the order and gouernment of other reformed Churches for proofe whereof I referre you to the wisest godlyest and best learned among the clergie in this lande T. C. And where as last of all it is sayde that this precedeth of enuie of singularitie and of popularitie although these be no sufficient reasons agaynst the truth of the cause whiche is neither enuious singular nor popular and although they be such as might be seuerally by greate likelyhodes probabilities refuted yet bicause the knowledge of these things pertaineth only to God which is the searcher of the heart raynes and for auoyding of to much tediousnesse we will reste in his iudgement tary for the day wherin the secretes of hearts shal be made manifest And yet all men doe see how vniustly we be accused of singularitie * Notable vntruths as wil fal out in triall which propound nothing that the Scriptures doe not teache the writers both olde and newe for the moste parte affirme the examples of the Primitiue Churches and of those which are at these dayes confirme Io. Whitgifte Whether if procéede of enuie or no lette the manner bothe of their and your writings declare Popularitie you can not auoyde séeing you séeke so greate an equalitie committe so many thyngs to the voyces of the people and in sundrye places so greately magnifye and extoll them than the whyche thrée what can bée more popular Singularitie and the properties therof It is Singularitie to deuyde youre selfe from that Churche whyche bothe professe the woorde of God truely and is not to bée touched in any poynte of doctrine necessarie to saluation It is true that a godly learned writer sayth Charitie Musc. in 〈◊〉 Mat. knittes together and reconcileth singularitie cutteth in peeces and diuideth it is the beginning and roote of all heresie to hate contemne the cōmunion of the church And a little after There be some contentious persons whom no church can please always hauing some thing to blame in other but nothing in themselues which is a manifest signe of singularitie But bicause the mindes and affections of men are certainly knowne only to God the determinate iudgement hereof I also referre vnto him As for this bolde assertion that you propeund nothing that the scriptures doe not teach c. howe true it is must hereafter by examination appeare The Epist. of T. C. Sect. 13. All these accusations as wel against the cause as the fauourers therof albeit they be many and diuers yet are they no other thā which haue bin long sithens in the Prophets apostles our sauior Christs now of late in our times obiected against the truth the professors therof And therefore as y e sunne of the truth then appered brake through al those clouds which rose against it to stop the light of it so no doubt this cause being of the same nature will haue the same effect And as all those sclanders could not bring the truth in disgrace with those y t loued it so the children of y e truth through these vntrue reports wil neither leaue the loue of this cause which they haue alredy cōceiued nor yet ceasse to enquire diligently to iudge indifferētly of those surmises which are put vp aagaynst it Io. Whitgifte These be but words of course which men of any sect though not truly wil apply vnto thēselues if they be otherwise delt with than they can wel beare The truth certainly can not be kept vnder by any meanes and yet sometime error ouershadoweth the truth euen as the cloudes do the Sunn My hope also is that men will not be caried away with slaunderous reportes ▪ for if they shoulde then musre you néedes preuayle but with sounde reasons and the truth of the cause The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 14. Moreouer seing that we haue once ouercōmed al these lets climed ouer them when they wer cast in our way to hinder vs from cōming frō the grosse darknesse of Poperie vnto y e glorious light of the Gospel there is no cause why now they shuld stay our course to further perfection cōsidering that neither the stile is higher now thā it was before being the very selfe same obiections in all this time we ought so to haue grown in knowledge of the truth that in stead of being then able to leape ouer a hedge we should now haue our feete so prepared by the Gospell that they shoulde be as the feete of a hynde able to surmount euen a wall if neede were Io. Whitgifte There is but one truth that is certain whē we haue obteined if we must therin remain constant without altering whosoeuer shal ouerleap or ouerrun this wall must of necessitie procure vnto himself great danger and therfore according to the olde prouerbe Looke before thou leape We must grow in faith knowledge always be growing going forward but it doth not therfore follow y t we must dayly inuent new opinions or broach new dectrines alter in iudgement we must grow in strength of faith we must increace in practise and loue of vertue we must studie to encrease our knowledge that we may be the more confirmed in the truthe that we haue learned out of the worde of God This is an euill collection we must grow in the knowledge of
the truth therfore we must alwayes be altering and changing our religion The Epistle of T. C. Sect. vlt. The summe of al is that the cause may be looked vpon with a single eye without al mist of partialitie may be heard with an indifferent eare without the waxe of preiudice the argumēts of both sides may be weighed not with the changeable weights of custome of time of men which notwithstanding Popish excepted shal be shewed to be more for the cause than against it but with the iust balances of the incorruptible vnchangeable word of God And I humbly beseech the Lord to increase in vs the spirit of knowledge iudgement that we may discern things which differ one from an other and that we may be lyncere and without offence vntill the day of Christe Io. Whitgifte This doe I in lyke maner desyre with all my heart and to the latter ende of it I say Amen The middest if you proue not then shall you be blamed for making such a bragge T. C. The Author to the Reader I Am humbly to craue at thy hand gentle reader that thou wouldest vouchesafe diligently and carefully to compare Maister Doctours answere and my replie bothe that thou mayst the better vnderstād the truth of the cause that the vntempered speches of him especially that whippeth 〈◊〉 desireth hat hich ▪ as much as lieth in him he hath sought to inder other so sharply for them which I haue in a maner altogether passed by and his lose conclusions which I haue to auoyd tediousnesse not so fully pursued may y e better appere which thing as I craue to be done through the whole booke so chiefly I desire it may be done in the beginning where the reader shall not be able so well to vnderstande what is sayd of me vnlesse he haue M. D. booke before him * Vaine nd vn s fficient ex u se why he ha h not et down the answer to the Ad onition The cause of whiche diuersitie rose of that that I fyrste purposed to set down his answer before my replie as he did the Admonition before his answer But afterward considering that his booke being alreadie in the handes of men it woulde be double charges to buye it again And especially weighing with my selfe that through the slownesse of the printe for want of help the repli by that meanes should come forth later than was conuement for although he might commodiously bring in the Admonition being short yet the same coulde not be doone in his booke swelling in that sorte which it dothe I saye these things considered I chaunged my mynde and haue therfore set downe the causes whiche moued me so to doe bicause I knowe that thos if any be whiche haue determined to continue their foreiudged opinions againste the cause whatsoeuer be alleaged wil herevpon take occasion to surmize that I haue lefte out his answere to the ende that it might the lesse appeare wherin I haue passed ouer any weyghte of his reasons wheras had it not bin for these causes which I haue before alleadged my earneste desire was to haue set his answere before my replie wherof I call the Lord to witnesse whom I knowe to be a sharpe iudge against those which shall abuse his holie name to any vntruth Io. Whitgifte You haue well prouided for the comparing of Master Doctors answer with your replie howsoeuer you protest y e your earnest desire was to set it down before your The true ca ses why T. C. sette not downe the answere Replie yet the sequele wil declare the contrarie for it shal euidently appere that therfore you haue omitted it bicause you are loth they should be compared together least your friuolous Replies your childish collections your wilful deprauing your fraudulent dismembring of my booke should manifestly appeare Full wel knew you that your fautours in whose hands especially your bookes are kept would not take pains to compare them both together except they had bin ioyned together that they might haue done it with one labor And suerly herein you haue delt verie vnhonestly with me done me great iniurie and not performed that towards me that you before required of me in one of your pamphlets and doe nowe againe require of me in the end of this booke But wise and indifferent men will soone espie the causes if it will please them to pervse this booke with some diligence My vntempered speaches if they be compared with your floutes disdaynful phrases or with either of y e Admonitiōs wil séeme I am sure verie modest And no doubt you would haue set down some examples of some of them if they had bin such as you would make the reader beleeue But in your booke he may sée the humblenesse of your spirite and iudge whether that one qualitie be founde in you or no which Zuinglius in Zuinglius his booke called Elenchus contra Anabap. and in his bookes de baptismo Ecclesiast and Bullinger in his booke Aduersus Anabap. do say is cōmon to the Anabaptists that is to reuile Bullinger the ministers of the worde and much more bitterly to inuey against them if they withstand their errors than against the Papists Truly if you should haue written against the doggeddest Papist or the pestilentest heretike that euer was you could not haue inuented howe in more spitefull maner to deface him but how truly it resteth in y e tryall Touching lose conclusions it is vnlike that you haue omitted any seing y t you haue famed those to be which are not Wherein your false dealing plainly appereth shal b made manifest Your excuses for omitting my booke in your replie be mere excuses for why should you run in suspition of corrupt dealing for sauing x d. in an other mans purse as for the volume of your booke it would not haue ben much bigger if you had spared your superfluous digressions cut off your vain words kept in your scornful and opprobrious speaches What I think of your protestatiō I haue told you before To his louyng Nurse the Christian Churche of England Io. VVhitgifte a membre and minister of the same vvisheth peace in Christe and continuance of his glorious Gospel euen to the worldes ende THere bee dyuers things and especially fiue that when I fyrste tooke this laboure in hande had almoste vtterly dissuaded mee from the same Fyrste bycause I doe with all my hearte hate contention and stryfe and especially in matters of Religion among suche as professe the selfe same Gospell Secondly for that I feared greatly least some sclaunder myghte tedounde to the Gospell by this open contention seing that God is not the author of contention or confusion but of peace 1. Cor. 14. Thirdly I doubted whether this kinde of dealing by writing might minister matter to the common aduersaries of the Gospel to reioyce and glorie and to flatter themselues the more in their damnable errours Fourthly I
greately suspected the slaunderous reportes of the backbiter and of the vnlearned tongue the one bicause he loueth to speake euill and heare euill of all those that be not in all pointes inclinable to his fansie whereof I haue greate experience being my selfe most vniustly sclaundered by that viperous kind of men the other bicause they be not able to iudge of controuersies according to learning and knowledge and therefore are ruled by affection and carried headlong with blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous opinions Lastly bycause I know sundry in all respects worthy men much more able to deale in such matters than I am But when I considered my duty towards God to his Church and to our most gracious Lady and soueraigne Elizabeth hir Maiestie by whose ministerie God hath giuen his Gospell free passage vnto vs the first stop and hindrance was answered For I thought that that dutie ought not to be omitted for any such cause seeing God and not man shall be my iudge and also that not he which defendeth the truth and confu eth errours but he that impugneth the truth and spreddeth sects is the authoure of contention Likewise when I remembred that it was no newe thing to haue contentions sects and schismes in the Church of Christ especially whē it enioyeth externall peace and that we had manifest examples there of from tyme to tyme fyrste in Peter and Paule ad Gal. 2. Paule and Barnabas Acto 15. then in the Churche of the Corinthians 1. Cor. 1. 3. Afterwardes betwixte the orientall Churche and occidentall Churche touching Easter and suche like matters Betwixte the Bishops of Aphrica and the Byshoppes of Italie for rebaptising of Heretikes and sundry tymes yea vsually in the externall peace of the Churche as may be more at large seene in Eusebius lib. 4. eccl histo cap. 6. libr. 5. cap. 24. 25. 26. li. 8. c. Likewise in Ruffinus lib. 1. ca. 1. In Zozom lib. 6. cap. 4. In Basilius Magnus ep 61. ad fratres episcopos in occidente ep 69. in sundry other auncient and learned histories and writers For the second point I was satisfyed For I thought that that coulde be no slaunder to thys Churche which by the malice of Sathan hath ben practised in all Churches euen since the ascention of Christe Thirdly when I perceiued that these men against whom I now write did agree with the aduersaries in defacing the state of Religion the order of Common prayers the Ministerie the Sacramentes the kinde of Gouernment c. vsed and allowed in this Realme of Englande and that in as opprobrious and spitefull maner as the aduersaries doo lykewise that they seeke to ouerthrowe the selfe same pillers of this Church with the aduersaries although not by the selfe same meanes I thoughte that the confutation and ouerthrowe of the one should be the confutation and ouerthrow of the other and therfore the aduersaries to haue small cause in deede of reioycing Agaynst backbyters slaunderers and vnlearned toungs I shall by Gods grace arme my self with pacience for their talke is no sufficient cause for a man to abstaine from doing his dutie To conclude I although the vnworthyest and vnmeetest of a great number was bold to take vpon me this enterprise partely to shewe that the booke called the Admonition is not such but that it may easily be answered and especially to satisfie myne owne conseience for I considered that if no man had taken vpon him the enuie of the cōmon sort in with standing the enterprises and proceedings of the Anabaptistes when they began in Germanie Anabaptisme had ouerrunne those Churches and vtterly destroyed them These were the reasons that satisfied the former obiections and especially moued me to take vpon me this labour wherwith if I can also satisfie others I haue my desire if not yet haue I done my duetie and satisfied myne owne conscience And forasmuche as the matter toucheth the state of the whole Churche of Englande I thought it moste meete to dedicate this my booke rather vnto the same generally than to any one particular member thereof protesting that if I haue affirmed any thing therein that by learnyng good reasons may be proued erroneous I will reforme the same for I wholly submitte it to the rule of Gods worde and the iudgement of those that be learned discrete and wyse The Lorde blesse thee O deare spouse of Christe with the continuance of his Gospell of the Queenes Maiestie and of godlie peace and quietnesse Amen An answere to the whole Epistle to the Church T. C. WHat causes either pulled you forwarde or thruste you backwarde to write or not to write and how in this dispute with your selfe in the end you were resolued to write in this sorte I leaue it vnto the iudgement of the Lorde who only knoweth the secrets of the hart and wil in his good time vnseale them But if there be any place of coniecture the hatred of cōtention which you set downe as the first and principal cause that beate you backe from writing might wel haue bin put as the last and least or rather none at all For if peace had bin so precious vnto you as you pretend you woulde not haue brought so many hard wordes bitter reproches e mylike speaches as it were sticks and coales to double and treble the heate of contention If the sharpnesse of the Admonition misliked you and you thinke that they outreached in some vehemencie of words how could you more effectually haue confuted that than to haue in a quiet and I de spirit set them in the way which in your opinion had left it Now in words condemning it and approuing it in your deedes I will not say that you do not so muche mislike this sharpnesse as you are A charitable figure sory that you are preuented and are not the first in it But this I may well say vnto you whiche he said Quid verba audiam cum facta videam what should I heare words whē I see the dedes In the fourthe reason whereby you were discouraged to write if by backbiters and vnlearned tonges viperous kind of men not able to iudge of controuersies caried away with affections and blind zeale into diuers sinister iudgements and erroneous ▪ opinions you meane al those that thinke not as you do in these matters I answer for my selfe and for as many as I knowe of them that they are they which first desire so it be truly to heare and speake all good of you But if that bee not through your perseuerance in the maintenance of the corruptions of this Church which you should help to purge then the same are they that desire that both the euill whiche you haue done and that which you haue yet in your hart to do may be knowne to the lesse discredite of the truthe and sinceritie which you with such might and maine do striue against Touching our (a) A manifest
the seconde I intende to iustifie T. C. fol. 1. Sect. 4. In the. 69. page he sayth Cyprian speaking of the office of an Archbishop which is a manifest petition of the principle For it beeing that which should haue bin * It is proued sufficiently in the treaâ—se of Archbishops proued M. Doctor taketh it for graunted And in diuers places speaking of the Archbishop he goeth about to deceyue hys reader with the fallation of the equiuocation or diuers signification of the word For whatsoeuer he findeth sayde of Archbishop Bishop in times past he bringeth to establishe our Archbishops and Bishops when notwithstanding those in times past were muche different from ours and are not of that kinde as shall appeare afterwarde Io. Whitgifte As though Cyprian may not speake of the office of an Archbishop excepte he expresse his name or as though the circumstance of the place may not declare that he speaketh of suche an office But howe iustly I am heere charged with a manyfest petition of a principle I shall haue better occasion to declare when I come to answere the manyfest cauill which T. C. vseth touching that place of Cyprian Howe also in diuers places speaking of the Archbishop I go about to deceyue my reader with the fallation of equiuocation which is only sayd in this place without any maner of proofe or any one exaÌ„ple shal likewise appeare when I come to answere the replie touching that matter where it will euidently fall out that T. C. is greatly deceyued in that he supposeth the Archbishops and Bishops in times past so muche to differ from ours especially if he meane the difference to be in authoritie and office T. C. fol. 1. Sect. 5. In the. 239. page he reasoneth that for so muche as those which weare the apparel doo edifie Another vntrue collection therefore they edifie by reason of the apparell which is to make that the cause which is not but onely commeth with the cause Io. Whitgifte You deale in this as you haue done in the rest that is corruptly for the seconde reason which I there vse to proue that the apparell doth edifie is this That such as haue worne the apparell and do weare it by the ministery of the worde haue greatly edified and do dayly In the whiche argument I make not the apparell the efficient or substantiall cause of edifying but an accidentall cause For you knowe that it is an order and lawe in the Churche of Englande that none shoulde either administer the Sacraments or preache excepte he receiue the apparell appoynted forasmuche therefore as he that refuseth to weare the apparell by order of this Church may not preache and therefore can not that way edifie and he that weareth that apparell may preache and so edifie therfore the apparell per accidens doth edifie euen as the Church the Pulpit and suche other things doo whiche edifie not per se of themselues but per accidens accidentally as all other accidentall ceremonies do T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 6. In the. 240. page he reasoneth thus that the surplice c. be notes notes of good ministers therfore they be good notes of ministers which is a fallation of composition when a man thinketh that whatsoeuer is sayde of a thing by it selfe may be sayde of it when it is ioyned with another Io. Whitgifte The Admonition sayth that cappe gowne tippet c. haue the shewe of euill seeing the Popishe priesthoode is euill To the which I answering say on this sort When they were a signe and token of the Popishe priesthoode then they were euill euen as the thing was which they signified but nowe they be signes and tokens of the ministers of the worde of God which are good and therefore also they be good What can you say to this maner of speaking is it not true to say that they were signes of euill when the things that they signified were euill and nowe they be signes of good séeing the things they signifie be good and as they were euill signes when they signified euill things so they be nowe good signes bicause they signifie good things Doo we not commonly call the signes and notes good or euill euen as the things signified be good or euill None is so ignorant that knoweth not this and therefore my reason is good but your collection is like it selfe I haue vsed no other maner of reasoning or speaking in this place than M. Bucer dothe in the same matter Fol. 59. 60. And therefore this is rather spoken agaynst him than agaynst me T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 7. In the. 149. page he reasoneth thus Those which authorized the booke of Common prayer were studious of peace and buylding the Churche therefore those which finde faulte with it are pullers downe of the Church and disturbers of the peace which is a fallation of the Accident when a man thinketh that euery thing which is verified of the subiect may be likewise verified of that which is annexed vnto it The further confutation of the which arguments I referre vnto their places Io. Whitgifte The AdmonitioÌ„ sayth that those persons in which and by whom the booke of Common prayer was first authorised were studious of peace and of buylding vp of Christes Churche Wherevpon I conclude that if that be true then the defacers of that booke be disturbers of the peace Which I gather of that that they theÌ„ selues haue grauÌ„ted and as I am perswaded truely neither doo I vnderstande howe it can be made a fallation ab accidente For I thinke that the meaning of the authors of the Admonition is that these men shewed them selues desirous of peace and of buylding vp the Church euen in collecting and authorising that booke or else to what purpose shoulde they make any mention of them whiche if it be true as it is then the argument muste of necessitie followe T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 8. There be diuers other which he hath which are so farre from iuste conclusions as they haue not so muche as any colour of likelyhoode of argument whiche I can not tell where to lodge vnlesse I put them in the common inne which is that whiche is called the ignorance of the Elench As in the. 68. page when he concludeth thus * An vntruthe for there is no such aagument â–ª that Cyprian speaketh not of the Bishop of Rome Ergo he speaketh of an Archbishop Io. Whitgifte I might héere iustly quarell with you for leaping so disorderly sometimes forward and sometimes backwarde as from the. 240. page to the. 149. and from that to the 68. c. But I let al such things passe and come to the matter In the. 68. page as you quote it but in déede the. 69. after I haue declared the true meaning of Cyprian I adde that Cyprian there speaketh not of the vsurped authoritie of the Bishop of Rome ouer all Churches but agaynst the insolencie of some which despising their Metropolitane or
C. pag. 5. Sect. 3. We pretende it not but we propounde it and herein we call God to witnesse agaynst our owne soules Io. Whitgifte I can not let you to applie things to your owne selues at your pleasure Volenti non All seeke not the glorie of God that pretend so to doe fit iniuria I sette that of the Anabaptistes down to this end that men may vnderstande not al those to séek the glorie of God c. which pretend the same bicause y e Anabaptistes haue those pretences and yet they séeke nothing lesse That the Anabaptistes and suche lyke disturbers of the Church haue those pretences not only M. Bullinger in those places by me quoted but other godlie and learned men also do testifie Zuinglius in his Ecclesiast sayth that they boast that whatsoeuer they speake they speake it of Zuinglius in Ecclesiast zeale being moued with the spirite Gastius sayth in his booke De exordio erroribus catabap that vnder the pretence of zeale they subuert whatsoeuer other men haue buylded Gastius Bucer in 4. ad Ephes. sayth that Satan couereth and cloketh arrogancie selfeloue enuye Bucer and hatred with a false pretence of godlie zeale for the puritie of faith for the sinceritie of Christes doctrine and for the saluation of the Church It is expedient for men to know this else might they thorough simplicitie easily be deceyued Io. Whitgifte The. 7. Article Pag. 3. Sect. 4. They earnestly cryed out against pride gluttonie c. They spake Bull. fo 11. 17. much of mortification they pretended great grauitie they sighed muche they seldome or neuer laughed they were verie austere in reprehendyng they spake gloriouslye To be shorte Magna varia erat ipsorum bypocrisis they were greate hypocrites thereby to winne authoritie to their heresie among the simple and ignorant people T. C. Pag. 5. Sect. 4. If you doe note these thinges which we say not we wil rather doo them with the Anabaptistes than leaue them vndone with you Of our simple heart and meaning in them we haue before Psalm 37. ver 6. protested In the meane season we will paciently abyde vntill the Lord bring our * rightuousnesse in this behalfe vnto lyght and our iust dealing as the noone day Touching our sighing and seldome or neuer laughyng you giue occasion after to speake of it vnto the whiche place I reserue the answere Io. Whitgifte I doe not write this of them bicause I woulde haue men absteyne from reprouing vice and exhorting to godlinesse but to lette it be vnderstoode that these be no certaine proofes of the veritie of the doctrine being commonly vsed in most vehement sort of the heretikes and sectaries to allure the people vnto them and to winne credite vnto their opinions Io. Whitgifte The. 8. Article Pag. 3. Sect. 5. If they were at any tyme punished for their errors they greatly Bull. fol. 11. complained that nothing was vsed but violence that the truth was oppressed that innocent and godly men which would haue al things reformed according to the word of God could not be heard nor haue libertie to speak That Zuinglius stopped their mouths defended his cause not by the word of God but by y e authoritie of the magistrate T. C. Page 5. Sect. 5. We are no Stoikes that we should not be touched with the feeling of our greefes if our complaints be excessiue shew them and we will abridge them what errours we defend and how you maynteyne your parte by the word of God it will appeare in the discourse of your Booke Io. Whitgifte And yet your complaint in this point as it is without iust cause so is it common to you with the Anabaptists and therefore no true note of the veritie of your doctrine nor any sufficient cause why you should therefore be more gratious vnto the people The chéefest thing that the common sort haue to say in your defense is that you be persecuted put from your liuings c. Which if it were altogither true as it is reported yet your complaint is no other than the Anabaptists is and therefore no more to be alleadged for the iustifying of you than the like is for the iustifying of them Io. Whitgifte The. 9. Article Page 3 Sect. 6. They found great faulte with the baptising of children and ceremonies Bu. Fo. 10. 〈◊〉 vsed in the same But afterward did vtterly condemne it T. C. Page 5. Sect. 6. Their finding fault without cause in the ceremonies of baptisme cannot barre vs from finding fault where there is cause We allow of the baptisme of children and hope through the goodnesse Marke the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ of God that it shall be farre from vs euer to condemne it But to let your slaunderous tong go all the strings whereof ye seeme to haue losed that it may the more freely be throwen on t ano walke against the innocent where where is the modestie you require in other of not entring to iudge of things vnknowen which dare insinuate to the Magistrate that it is like they will condemne childrens baptisme which do baptise them preach they shoulde be baptised and which did neuer by sillable letter or countenance mislike of their baptisme Io. Whitgifte Can you denie any thing to be true that I haue spoken of the Anabaptists in thys article or can you denie but that your selues also mislike the ceremonies vsed in baptisme in this Church yea and the same that they did what followed in them is manifest what wil follow in you God knoweth I iudge not What be my suspicions is declared in my answer to the Admonition which if you haue truly taken away I am satisfyed but I am afraid the contrarie will appeare in your booke Io. Whitgifte The. 10. 11. 12. Page 3. Sect. 7. They taught that the ciuill Magistrate hathe no authoritie in Bul. Fol. 19 ▪ Ecclesiasticall matters and that he ought not to medle in causes of religion and faith Page 4. Sect 1. That no man oughte to be compelled to faith and to religion Bul. Fol. 19. 9 242. That Christians oughte to punish faultes not with imprisonment not with the sword or corporall punishment but only with excommunication Fol. 178. T. C. Page 5. Sect. 7. I answer as vnto the fifth and for further answer I will referre the reader to those places where occasion shall be giuen to speake of those things ag ayne Io. Whitgifte And I referre my selfe also to the Admonitions and to your owne booke and to my seuerall answers which shall be made touching these matters Io. Whitgifte The. 13. Article Page 4. Sect. 3. They complayned much of persecution Fol. 11. 242. T. C. Pa. 5. Sect. 8. This is a braunch of the eyght and added for nothing else but to make vp the tale Io. Whitgifte And yet a worthy note else shoulde it not haue bin so often repeated not only of Bullinger but of other godly
men also as of Zuinglius Gastius and others Io. Whitgifte The. 14. Article Pa 4. Sect. 4. They bragged that they would defend their cause not only with Fol. 11. words but with the shedding of their bloud also T. C. Pa. 5. Sect. vlt. We feare no shedding of bloud in hir maiesties dayes for mainteining that which we hope we shall be able to proue out of the word of God and wherein we agree with the best reformed churches but certaine of the thinges whiche we stand vpon are such as that if euery heare of our head were a life we ought to aford them for the defense of them We brag not of any the least abilitie of suffering but in the feare of God we hope of the assistance of God his holy spirit to abide whatsoeuer hee shall thinke good to trie vs with either for profession of this or any other hys truthe whatsoeuer Io. Whitgifte Thanks be vnto God there is no cause why you should feare But wherefore do you then beate any such suspition into the peoples heads or why do you beast of that that you know is nothing néere you and whiche no man once goeth about to offer vnto you what meane you in the. 59. page of the second Admonition to say that there is a persecution of poore Christians and the professours of the Gospell suffered not farre vnlike Second Admoni Fol. 59 to the sixe articles which crafty heads deuised and brought the king hir noble father vnto as they would do hir maiestie now Can any thing be spoken more vntruly more suspiciously nay I may rightly say more seditiously If there be such things in controuersie betwixt vs that require defense euen vnto The state of the cōtētiō altered by T. C. death yea and that if euery heare of our head wer a life we ought to afoord them for the defense of the same then truly is there greater matters in hand than euery body doth consider of Hitherto it hath bin the common opinion that our contention was but about trifles about externall things such as might admit alteration and were not of the substance of religion but if this be true that you here set downe belike a great sort haue bin hitherto deceiued Truly if the matters be of such weight that they require defense of life you are much to blame that haue not hitherto made them better knowen I trust we shall in this booke vnderstand what they are In the meane time the stout bragges that are vsed by some might well be spared but we haue oftentimes séene greate cloudes and small rayne and heard great crackes of thunder and thanks be vnto God small harme done Neither are you more to be credited for these boastings than were the Anabaptists for vsing the like Io. Whitgifte ▪ The. 15. Article Page 4. Sect. 5. Their whole intent was to make a separation and a schisme and Fol. 17. 77. to withdraw men from their ordinary Churches and pastours and therfore most odiously they inueied against such pastours and sought by all meanes to discredite them T. C. Page ▪ 6. Sect. 1. We make no separation from the Church we go about to separate al those things that offend in the Church to the end that we being al knit to the sincere truth of the Gospel might afterwards in the same bond of truth be more neerely and closely ioyned togither We endeuour that euery Church hauing a lawfull pastoure whiche is able to instruct all mighte be ranged to their proper Churches whereas diuerse vnlesse they go to other than their owne parishes are like to heare few sermons in the yeare so farre are we from withdrawing men from their ordinarie churches and pastours Let him that inueyeth against any pastoure without good cause beare the punishment as for inueying againste heaping of liuing vpon liuing and ioyning steeple to steeple and non residence and such ambition and tyrannie as beareth the sway in diuers ecclesiasticall persons if the price of the pacification be the offending of the Lorde it is better you be displeased than God bee offended Io. Whitgifte Whether you make a separation or no and a schisme in the Churche let all men iudge and whether you draw the people from their ordinarie pastours or no let the secrete conuenticles for I can call them no better vsed not only in the citie but in other places of the countrey also testify whether iustly and as it becommeth you you enuey against such pastours and preachers as mislike your opinion and séeke their discredite let the bitter inuectiues in sermons before the people when none of them is present the common table talke bothe your Admonitions the firste and the second yea and this your passing modeste booke declare Truly this article and euery content in it was neuer more truly verefyed of the Anabaptists than it is and may be of you What you haue to say against the ambition and tyrannie of any such as you especially shoote at we shall sée in your particulars I trust you will speake al you know and more to else you do degenerate Io. Whitgifte The. 16. Article Page 4. Sect. 6. There was no staye in them but daily they inuented new opinions Fol. 18. and did runne from errour to errour T. C. Page 6. Sect. 2. We stay ourselues within the bonds of the word of God we professe our selues to be of the number of those which should * grow in knowledge as we do in age and which labor that the Image Eph. 4. v. 13 Col. 3. v. 10. of God may be dayly renued in vs not only in holynesse of life but also in * knowledge of the truth of God and yet I know no question moued which hath not bin many yeares before in other churches reformed holden as truth and therefore practised and in our Church also haue bin some yeares debated Io Whitgifte Thus muche might they alleadge for themselues also and applie those textes of scripture to as good purpose as you do For that place of the fourth to the Ephe. doth 4. Eph. teach that God hath therefore appointed his ministerie in the Church that it mighte be a meanes to bring vs to a perfect knowledge of Christ. The meaning is not that we should be daily altering our iudgement and broching new opinions for against such vnconstancie the same Apostle speaketh in the. 14. verse of the same Chapter 4. Eph. ver 14. True it is that we must dayly grow in faith and loue to the full perfection whereof we cannot attaine in this life but it doth not therefore follow that we like children must be carried about with euery wind of doctrine and neuer remaine constant in one religion To the same end are the words of the Apostle in the. 3. to the Colloss to be referred I beléeue it will fall out that in this your replie there will be found sundry articles neyther allowed nor practised in any Church reformed nor
be not rightly and canonically called to these functions the selfe same do these men affirme T. C. Pag. 8. Sect. 2. I haue answered this in the seconde article of Anabaptisme that you charge vs with Io. Whitgifte Then haue I answered the same there also Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 6. Sect 2. Thirdly the Papistes say that our Sacraments be not rightly ministred and so say they likewise T. C. Page 8. Sect. 3. This is also answered in the thirde Io. Whitgifte That is you haue there closely confessed this to be true But that the reader may vnderstande that it is most truely verifyed of them let him peruse that which is written in the seconde Admonition fol. 43. where they saye the sacraments be wickedly 2. Admon fol. 43. ministred and in the first Admonition fol. 89. and that also that followeth in thys booke Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 6. Sect. 3. Fourthly the Papistes wholy ▪ condemne our booke of common prayers set out by publike authoritie and the whole order of our seruice in that poynt do these men fully ioyne with them also for they condemne it wholy and that with most bitternesse T. C. Page 8. Sect. 4. I answere that they doe not condemne it wholy but finde fault with it as in some poynts disagreeing with the word of God Io. Whitgifte For the proofe of this article reade the first Admonition fol. 85. 86. c. 148. c. the seconde Admonition fol. 9. 10. 38. 39. c. Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Page 6. Sect. 4. Fiftly the Papistes would not haue the Scriptures read in the Church to the people no more would they For they saye reading is not feeding but as euill as playing on a stage and worse to T. C. Pag. 8. Sect. 5. All men shall perceyue when I come to that place howe you haue racked their wordes to an other sense than they spake them in the meane season it is inoughe that they confesse that readyng in the Church is godly Io. Whitgifte It is wel that you confesse it to be godly it wil appeare when I come to that place that the authors of the Admonition both write and thinke farre otherwyse excepte they write one thing and thinke another Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. pag. 6. Sect 5. Sixtly the Papists denie the ciuill Magistrate to haue any authoritie in Ecclesiasticalll matters and so doe they T. C. pag. 8. Sect. 6. I haue answered in the (*) Where you haue not spoken one word of it tenth article of Anabaptisme Io. Whitgifte Your answere is there very confused and vncertaine but for the proofe of this article I referre the reader to certaine notes which I haue collected out of your booke touching this matter in this my defense Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. pag. 6. Sect. 6. To be short the Papistes refuse to come to our Church to Communicate with vs in the Lordes Supper and these men would not haue them by lawes and punishment compelled thervnto T. C. pag. 8. Sect. vlt. I answere that Doeg when he saide that Dauid came to Abimilech sayde nothing but truth and when they that witnessed against Christ that he sayde destroy the temple and in three dayes I will build it vp againe saide nothing but that our sauiour Christ sayde But yet Doeg was a slaunderer and the other false witnesses bycause the one spake of minde to hurte and the other vnderstoode it of another temple than our sauiour Christ ment it so although you do in parte rehearse their wordes yet taking them contrary to their meaning which might easily appeare by the circumstances I see not howe you can bee free from these faultes vnlesse it be done ignorantly which I wishe were true for your owne sake And here I wyll desire thee gentle reader to marke with what conscience this man sayth that they are ioyned and confederate with the Papistes agaynst the Church The Papistes mislyke of the Booke of common prayers for nothing else but bycause it swarueth from their Masse booke and is not in all poyntes lyke vnto it And these men mislyke it for nothing else but that it hath to much lykelyhoode vnto it And iudge whether they be more ioyned with the Papistes which woulde haue no communion or fellowship wyth them neyther in ceremonies nor doctrine nor gouernment or they which forsaking their doctrine reteyne part of theyr ceremonies almost their whole gouernment that is they that separate themselues by three walles or by one they that woulde be parted by the broade sea from them or which woulde be beuided by narrowe water where they maye make a bridge to come agayne and displace the truth of the Gospell as they haue done in tymes past They that woulde not onely vnhorse the Pope but also take awaye the styrrops whereby he shoulde neuer get into the sadle agayne or they that beyng content wyth that that he is vnhorsed leaue his ceremonies and his gouernment especially as styrrops whereby he maye leape vp agayne when as occasion serueth They that are content onely to haue cut the armes and body of Antichristianitie or they which would haue stumpe and roote all vp Io. Whitgifte Better it is to haue a bad excuse than none at all Their words and meaning is playne as shal appeare when I come to thē I thinke in déede their meaning is that they would not haue them cōpelled to come to our Churches and to communicate in the Lordes supper with vs as it is nowe ministred For it is well knowne howe they themselues refuse to do the same and howe they haue defaced both this Church and the manner and forme of administring the Sacrament what they woulde doe if they might haue their owne deuised reformation and haue the lawe in their owne handes I can not tell but it is very lyke that they woulde be sharpe and seuere inough in compelling men to come I speake of their opinion touching the compelling of men to come to our Churche vnto the whiche they come not themselues That whiche followeth in your Replie I haue sufficiently answered before Pag. 51. where I haue declared howe that it is no straunge thing for men of cleane contrarie iudgementes and opinions to ioyne togither in oppugning one and the selfe same truthe The Papistes pretende one cause of misliking the booke of Cōmon prayers and they pretende an other cause of misliking the same do they not nowe both ioyne in defacing and ouerthrowing it That which followeth is but words those things whiche they reproue in that booke be godly and moste of them not to be bettered The persons that stande in the defense of that booke haue all poyntes of Papistrie in as great detestation as they and peraduenture greater for they so occupie themselues in these externall thinges which be of small importance that in the meane time they The Admonitors gratifie the Papists slippe ouer matters of weighte and
Gentils seeke where he dothe not forbidde them to séeke for meate drynke and clothing but to séeke for it too carefully and with mistrust of Gods prouidence as the Gentiles did In lyke maner here he forbiddeth not gouernment either in the ciuil or Ecclesiasticall state but he forbiddeth suche gouernment as the Gentils vsed and such corrupt affections as they had in desiring the same Touchying your argument I saye it hath two faultes Fyrst it is a fallacion Two faultes in the argument of T. C. à petitione principij for you take it as graunted that the Ciuill Magistrate is seuered from the Ecclesiasticall officer by bearyng dominion whyche I will not simplye graunte vnto you for that is partely oure question Secondly your minor is ambiguous The ciuill Magistrate doth not simply biffer from the Ecclesiastical by bearing dominion and therfore in that respect your argumente may be also placed in the fallacion of aequiuocation for the worde Dominion may haue diuers significations It may signifye suche dominion as Christe speaketh of in this place that is rule with oppression It maye also signifie the absolute authoritie of a Prince suche as is mentioned 1. Samuell 8. Thyrdely it maye signifie any peculiar office of superioritie and gouernment vnder the Prince at the appoyntment of the Prince as the Diuers significations of the word Dominion authoritie of a Iudge Iustice. Maior c. Laste of all it may signifye any iurisdiction or kynde of gouernment If you take it in eyther of the two fyrst significations your minor is true if in either of the two latter significations it is false For wée graunte that there is greate difference betwixte the dominion of Kings and Princes and betwixte the Jurisdiction and authoritie of Bishoppes Kings haue power ouer lyfe and goodes c. so haue not Bishops Kings haue authoritiie in al causes and ouer all persons withintheir dominions without any limitation if Bishops haue any suche dominion especially in Ciuill causes it is not in the respects they be Bishops but it is from the Prince and limited vnto them Touching theyr names and titles you saye he putteth a difference in these woordes and they are called gracious Lordes but it shall not be so with you c. The woordes of the twentith of Mathewe bée these And they that are greate exercise authoritie ouer them In the. 10. of Marke the same woordes be vsed In the. 22. of Luke the Gréeke woorde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 benefici vocantur they are called bountifull or beneficiall whyche I sée not howe you can by anye meanes applye to your purpose For Mathewe and Marke referre thys clause It shall not bee so among you not to anye name but to the ambition and tyrannicall kynde of dominion whyche our Sauioure Christe there reproueth as it is moste manyfeste And therefore thys place of Luke muste also bée expounded by them Neither is this woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of any suche imperiousnesse that Chryste shoulde forbyd Caluinus hys Disciples the name M. Caluine in his Commentaries interpretyng these woordes of Saincte Luke sayeth thus As touchyng the woordes where Mathewe hath that kings exercise authoritie ouer them in Luke wee reade that they are called bountyfull in the same sense as though he shoulde saye Kings haue plenty of all thyngs and are very ryche so that they maye bee bountyfull and liberall And a little after he sayeth that they doe appetere laudem munificentiae desire the commendation of bountyfulnesse I knowe that certayne of the Kynges of Egypte were called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 munifici benefactores bountifull and benefactours and that they were delyghted to bée so called I know also that among the Hebrues theyr Princes were called Munifici liberales per antonomasian But what then if eyther they vaynegloriously desyred that name or were so called when they deserued rather the names of Tyrantes and oppressoures dothe it therefore followe that they be vnlawfull names for suche as maye deserue them The moste that can bée gathered of this place for any thyng that I perceyue is that the Kings of the Gentiles had vayne and flattering titles giuen them béeing nothing lesse in déede than that whiche their names did signifie and so maye it bée a good admonition for menne Howe the wordes Vos autem non sic may be reserred to names to learne to answere to theyr names and titles and to doo in déed that whiche by snche names and titles is signified Nowe then if you will haue Vos autem non sic but it shall not bee so wyth you to bée a prohibition to all Christians and especially to Bishops that they shall not ambitiously seeke dominion as the Gentiles dyd vniustly and tyrannously vse their authoritie as they also dyd nor haue names and titles to the whiche they doe not accordingly answere no more than the Gentiles did then I agrée with you But if you will haue Vos autem non sic to restrayne them from being called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is liberal benefactors c. as your interpretatiō agréeth not with the wordes of the other two Euangelistes so doth it not wyth any learned interpreter that I haue read To your argument concerning names and titles I answere as I did to the former Diuers kyndes of names Some names titles are proper to the ciuil Magistrate only as the names of Emperor King Prince Duke Erle c. These names are not giuē to any of the Clergie in this Church to my knowledge some names are cōmon to the Ciuill Magistrate Names common to ciuill and Ecclesiastical persons with Ecclesiasticall persons as certaine names of reuerence of superioritie of office The name of Gratious Lorde is a name of superioritie and of reuerence according to the manner of the countrey where it is vsed and therefore may well agrée eyther to the ciuill or Ecclesiasticall persons and in many places dyuers are called by this name Lord which is in Latin Dominus for reuerence and ciuilitie whiche haue verie small dominion As for the name of Archebishoppe or Metropolitane that is not proper to any ciuill Magistrate and therfore without the compasse of your argument Thus then you sée that some titles are proper to the ciuill Magistrate some to the Ecclesiasticall and some common to both wherby your maior is vtterly ouerthrowne As for this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vpon the whiche you séeme to grouude your argument I see not why it may not be common to all men that shewe themselues liberall and beneficiall There is no man denyeth but that there is and must be great difference betwixt the pompe and outwarde shewe of a Prince and the state of an Ecclesiasticall person bothe in titles and other maiestie and I thinke that he is verie blynde that séeth it not so to be in this Churche of England yet may the Ecclesiasticall person shewe foorth the countenance of his degrée
same to appoint as they shal thinke most conuenient and agréeable to the generall rules giuen in the scripture for that purpose Neither is this contrarie to any thing that I haue written But bothe in this and that also whiche immediatly foloweth you are contrarie to your self and directly ad oppositum to the Admonition T. C. is contrarie to himselfe and to the Admonition and agreeth with the answere As by conference may appeare for these be your owne wordes Whereby it lykewyse appeareth that we denye not but certayne things are lefte to the order of the Churche bycause they are of that nature which are varyed by tymes places persons other circumstances and so coulde not at once be set downe and established for euer And yet so left to the order of the Church as that it doe nothyng against the rules aforesayde What dothe this differ from these wordes of myne It is also true that nothing in Ceremonies order discipline or gouernmente of the Churche is to be suffered against the word of God and to this end doe all those authorities and places tende that I haue alledged for this matter So that eyther you vnderstand not me or not your selfe or else your quarell is againste the person not the cause The admonition in this poynt you defende not for it sayeth directly that those things only are to be placed in Fol. 19. Gods Church whiche the Lorde himselfe in his worde commaundeth And although peraduenture you will shifte this off by saying that they meane suche things only as bée commaunded eyther generally or specially yet the whole discourse of their booke declareth that their meaning is that nothing ought to be placed in the Church which is not specially commaunded in the worde of God But séeing you and I agrée in this that the Church hath authoritie to ordeyn ceremonies and make Orders whiche are not expressed in the woorde of God it remayneth to bée considered wherein we differ whiche is as I thinke in this that I say the Churche of England hath lawfully vsed her authoritie in suche ceremonies orders as she hath appointed nowe retaineth and you denie the same so that your controuersie is against the Church of England and the Ceremonies and orders vsed therein And therefore you adde and saye but howe doth this follow that certaine things are left to the order of the Churche therfore to make a newe ministerie c. Whereby you giue vs to vnderstande that the things you misselike in this Church are the office and name of an Archbishop whiche you vntruly call a newe ministerie as it is by me declared in my answere to the Admonition oure ministerie the gouernment of our Church and as you say other more that is all thinges at your pleasure But how iustly and truly this is spoken shall appeare in their proper places In the meane tyme it is sufficient to tell you that you are an vnwoorthy member of this Churche whiche so vniustly report of it so vnchristianly slaunder it and so without groundes and sounde proofes condemne it There is nothyng by it or in it altered which God hath ordeined and established not to be altered Chap. 1. the syxt Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 21 Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 22. Sect. 1. 2. The Scripture hath not prescribed any place or time wherein or when the Lordes Supper should be celebrated neither yet in what manner The Scripture hath not appoynted what tyme or where the congregation shall meete for common Prayer and for the hearing of the word of God neither yet any discipline for the correcting of such as shall contemne the same The Scripture hath not appointed what day in the weeke should be most meete for the Saboth day whither Saterday which is the Iewes Saboth or the day now obserued which was appointed by the Churche The Scripture hath not determined what forme is to be vs d in matrimonie what words what prayers what exhortations The Scripture speaketh not one worde of standing sitting or kneling at the Communion of meeting in Churches fieldes or houses to heare the word of God of preaching in pulpets chaires or otherwise of Baptising in fontes in basons or riuers openly or priuately at home or in the Church euery day in the weeke or on the Sabaoth day only And yet no man as I suppose is so simple to thinke that the Church hath no authoritie to take order in these matters T. C. Pag. 15. Sect. vlt. Pag. 16. Sect. 1. But whyle you goe about to seeme to say muche and rake vp a great number of things you haue made very euill meslyn and you haue put in one things which are not paires nor matches Bycause I will not drawe the Reader willingly into more questions than are alreadie put vp I will not stande to dispute whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday being the day of the Resurrection of our Sauior Christ and so the day wherin the world was renued as the Iewes Sabboth was the day wherin the world was finished and being in all the Churches in the Apostles tymes as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say that there was no (a) It is lesse true dealing for you to charg men wi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ey haue not affir ed. great indgement to make it as arbitrarie and chaungeable as the houre and the place of prayer But where was pour iudgement when you wrote that the scripture hath appointed no discipline nor correction for such as shal contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God what Church discipline would you haue other than admonitions reprehensions and if these will not profit excommunication and are they not appointed of our Sauiour Christ (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged Math. 18 There are also ciuill punishments and punishments of the body likewise appointed by the worde of God in diuers places (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged in the. 22. of Exodus He that sacrificeth to other gods not to the Lord alone shal die the death And in y e (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 19. of Deutronomie Thou shalte turne out the euill out of the middest of thee that the rest may eare and feare and not dare do the lyke The execution of this lawe appeareth in the (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 15. 2. Chro. by king Aza who made alawe that al those that did not seeke the Lord should be killed And thus you see the ciuill punishment of contemners of the worde and prayers There are other for suche as neglect the worde whiche are according to the quantitie of the faulte so that whether you meane ciuill or Ecciesiasticall correction the scripture (c) Or else you are deceyued hath defined of them bothe Io. Whitgifte Out of all these things whiche I saye the Scripture hath not prescribed or appointed T. C. seeketh quarels
wher none are offered you choose to carpe at first The Lordes daye whiche we call Sonday and you saye that you will not dispute whether it ought or may be changed or no when as you should rather haue proued it to be appointed by the scriptures which no doubt you would haue done if you coulde for that is it whych I denye Where haue you hearde mée say that it may or ought to bée altered if you will confute confute that whyche I haue sette downe and affirme not that whiche it pleaseth you to imagine In good sooth this is no true dealyng No maruell it is that you haue not sette downe my booke séeing you deale thus corruptely with it I doe not thinke that The determination of the church ought not lightly to be altered that whiche the Churche hath once determined and by long continuance proued to be necessarie ought to be altered without great and especiall consideration I saye with Sainct Augustin Epist. 118. ad Ianuar. If any thyng be vniuersallye obserued of the whole Churche not to obserue that or to call it into question is meere madnesse therfore Aug. ep 118. seing that it hath had suche time of continuaunce that it was for so good and iuste causes appoynted and is so generallye obserued of the Churche I doe not thynke it nowe arbitrarie nor to be chaunged muche lesse doe I make it as arbitrarie or chaungeable as the place and houre of prayer whiche may be diuers in diuers churches and it is among those rites and orders that be diuersly obserued in diuers places wherof also August maketh mention in that Epistle Surely as there had bene little iudgement in me if I had made it chaungeable so is there small honestie in you to alter my wordes and to falsifie my meaning Secondly you myslike that I should say The scripture not to haue appointed discipline or correction for such as shall contemne the cōmon Prayers and hearing the worde of God And you aske me where my iudgement was but I haue more cause to deiliaulide of you where that learning and skill Scriptures vnskilfully alledged by T. C. is which you so muche bragge of séeing that you so vnskilfully alledge the Scriptures against their true meaning and sense For where haue you learned that Christ in the. 18. of Mathew dothe appointe any generall rule for publike offences suche as negligence and contempt in frequenting publike Prayers and hearing of the word of God is The very words of Christ If thy brother trespasse agay st thee c. do teath Math. 18. that he meaneth not there of open and knowne but of secrete and particular sinnes The which thing also the note that is in the margent of the Bible printed at Geneua myghte haue taught you if you had bene as well disposed to haue followed the same in this place as you séeme to haue doone in other places M. Caluine in his boke agaynst the Anabap. reprouing them for vsing this place to the establishing of their kynde of discipline by excommunication saythe on this sorte They are againe deceyued Caluin aduer Anabap. in that they consider not that the Lorde speaketh in that place of secrete faultes for as for those which are manifest and giue vnto the people cause of offence they are to be corrected by other meanes than by secrete admonitions You muste therfore séeke for some other place than this if you will proue that the Scripture hath appointed any discipline and correction for suche as shall contemne the Common Prayers and hearing of the worde To proue that there are also ciuill punishmentes and punishments of the bodie for contemnyng common prayers and hearing of the worde appointed by the worde of God you cite 22. of Exodus 19. of Deuteronomie c. But before I come to the answering of these places I pray you let me aske of you these questions First whether you would haue both Ecclesiasticall ciuil punishment for the selfe same faulte Secondly whether you woulde haue negligence or contempte in frequenting of common prayers hearing of the word punished with death or no for that punishment is appoynted in those places by you alleaged Last of all whether you thinke the Iudiciall lawes to be perpetual to binde the ciuill Magistrate to the obseruing of them to restrain him from making any other The vnaptnesse of the proofes of T. C. as shall be thought to him most conuenient for except you wil haue two kinds of punishments for one and the self same offence except you will punish with death suche as be negligent in cōming to publike prayers to be shorte except you will haue the ciuill Magistrate bound of necessitie to practise these iudicial lawes of Moses which in déede you affirme afterwardes in your booke those places make nothing for your purpose So that you are yet as farre to séeke for Scripture that appointeth any certaine kinde of discipline for these matters as euer you were But that it may be vnderstode howe vnreasonably you wring wrest the scriptures so make them serue your turne I will in one woorde or two declare y e meaning of those places and set open the might of your argumentes In the. 22. of Exodus the place by you alleaged the punishment of death is appointed Exod. 22. for Idolaters whervpon you would ground this argument God in the. 22. of Exodus appointeth death as a punishment for Idolaters Ergo the word of God appointeth a certain kind of punishment for such as be negligent in frequenting publik prayers and contemne the hearing of the worde I say there is no sequele in this argument vnlesse you wil make all those that be negligent in cōming to publike praiers and cōtemne to heare the word Idolaters and this to be a perpetuall lawe In the 19. of Deuteronomie ther is nothing tending to any such purpose only in the Deut. 19. latter end of the chapter there is a punishment appointed for him that beareth false witnesse whervpon these woords so thou shalt take euill away from the middest of thee c. by you here alledged do folow Now if you will thus conclude God in the. 19. of Deutronomie appointeth a punishment for a false witnesse Ergo the scripture hath appointed discipline for such as neglect to come to publike praiers c. then indéed you may proue any thing it is but in vaine to strine with you But Lord what gybing flouting would there be if I shold bappē to fall into so manifest open absurdities In the. 2. Chro. 15. Aza made the same punishmente for Idolatrie that is mentioned 2 ▪ Chro 1 in the. 22. of Exo. and therefore the same answere serueth that place Truly I thinke you take your selfe to haue frée libertie to applie the scriptures at your pleasure else would you neuer thus abuse them without all iudgement or reason What I thinke of the necessitie or continuance of
Sacraments administred in priuate families so that they be done according to the order of the Churche and not in the contempt of common and publike assemblies And I thinke that suche noble men and gentlemen as vpon oceasion either of infirmitie of body or of distance of place or some other vrgēt cause haue the word of God preached in their priuate families and the Sacraments ministred according to the order of the Churche are greatly to be commended Neyther doth this open any window to secrete and schismaticall conuenticles suche I meane as seeke corners bycause they wil not kéep the orders lawes of the Church but contemne the same and conspire in some new and erroneous opinions In the which number those be whome I haue truly charged with conuenticles for they despising the order of the Churche haue wickedly separated themselues from the same whose opinions notwithstanding you mainteine although you would séeme to condemne their conuenticles But it may be that you coumpt this time to be a time of persecution and so excuse their doings To be short when I speake either of priuate preaching or of priuate ministring the sacraments I meane it especially in respecte of the place and not in the respect of any schismaticall separation so that hitherto you haue said nothing that impugneth any thing that I haue written Neyther haue I spoken any otherwise in all these things than other learned and godly men haue done as it is to be séene by all theyr seuerall authorities which I haue in their places set downe Chapter 1. the. 9. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Page 22. Sect. 2. I pray you what ment Saint Paule in 1. Co. 14. after he had prescribed certaine orders vnto them to be obserued in the Church thus generally to conclude Omnia decenter ordine fiant Let all things be done decently and in order Doth he not there giue vnto them authoritie to make orders in the Church so that al things be done in order and decently The best interpreters doe vnderstande this as a generall rule giuen vnto the Churche to examine hir traditions and constitutions by And therefore without all doubt their iudgement is that the Church hath authoritie in externall things to make orders and appoint lawes not expressed in the worde of God so that this rule of the Apostle be obserued Io. Whitgifte Here haue you not answered one word to that which I haue alleadged out of the The ground of the assertion vnanswered by T. C. 1. Cor. 14. for the i stifying of my generall assertion in this point nor to the interpretation of it that therefore being graunted the rest must néedes stande in full force that is that the scripture hathe lefte many thinges to the discretion of the Church The opinion of auncient fathers and Councelles of things indifferent Chap. 2. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 22 Sect. 3. 4. NOw if either godly councels or auncient fathers were any thing Auncient fathers of thīgs indifferent at all regarded of these men as they be not suche is their arrogancie this controuersie might soone be decided For the most auncient fathers and best learned as Iustinus Martyr Irenaeus Tertullian Cyprian and other do expressely declare that euen from the Apostles time the Church hath always had authoritie in such matters and hathe obserued diuers orders and ceremonies not once mentioned in the word of God T. C. Page 16. Sect. 3. Page 17. Sect. 1. 2. Here are broughte in Iustin Martyr Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian and Councells as (a) Wilfull ignorance for you know very well that euery one of them greatly fauoureth this cause dumbe persons in the stage only to make a shew and so they go out of the stage without saying any thing And if they had had any thing to say in this cause for these matters in controuersie there is no doubt but M. Doctor would haue made them speake For when he placeth the greatest strēgth of his cause in antiquitie he would not haue passed by Iustin Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian being so auncient and taken Augustine which was a great time after them And if the godly councels could haue helped here it is small wisedome to take Augustine and leaue them For I thinke he might haue learned that amongst the authorities of men the credite of many be better than of one and that this is a generall rule that as the iudgement of some notable personage is looked vnto in a matter that is debated more than theirs of the common sort so the iudgement of a counsell where many learned men be gathered togither carieth more likelihoode of truth with it than the iudgement of one man although it be but a prouinciall counsell much more than if it be generall therfore you do your cause greate iniurie if you could alleadge them and do not This is once to bee obserued of the reader throughout your whole booke that you haue well prouided that you should not be taken in the trip for misaledging the scriptures for that vnlesse it be in (b) Moe scriptures than you and something better applyed one or two points we heare continually in stead of Esay and Ierenty S. Paule and S. Peter and the rest of the And as we say in our tonge ettles amōg roses Prophets and Apostles S. Augustine and S. Ambrose 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dionisius Areopagita Clement c. And therefore I cannot tell with what face we can call the Papistes from their antiquitie councels and fathers to the triall of the scriptures which in the controuersies which rise amongst ourselues flie so far from them that it wanteth not much that they are not banished of your part from the deciding of all these controuersies And if this be a sufficient proofe of things to say (c) A better proofe than to say I say so as you commonly vse to do such a doctor said so suche a councell decreede so there is almost nothing so true but I can impugne nothing so false but I can make true And well assured I am that by their meanes the principall groundes of our faythe maye be shaken And therefore bycause you haue (d) Petitio principij no proofein the word of God we comfort ourselues assured that for so much as the foundations of the Archbyshop and Lordship of Byshops and of other things whiche are in question be not in heauen that they will fall and come to the grounde from whence they were taken Now it is knowne they are from beneath and of the earth and that they are of men and not of God Io. Whitgifte Here are many words which might well haue bin spared but that you are desirous Sect. 1. to haue your modest speaches knowne to the world In the. 25. page I haue told you where some of these dumbe persons speake their partes but you are blinde when you should sée and deafe when you should heare that which you
like matters I woulde wishe you to deale sineerely the question that we haue nowe in ▪ The suttle dealing of T. C. in altering y e state of the controuersie hande is VVhether the Scripture hath expressed all externall things touchyng the orders Ceremonyes and gouernment of the Churche I proue it hath not both by the Scripture it selfe and by manyfest examples and by the iudgement of the beste learned you not beyng able to answere and yet desyrous to séeme to saye somewhat to shifte of these examples and authorities dallie at the matter and would make your Reader beléeue that I woulde haue thyngs vsed in the Churche contrarye or not accordyng to the Scriptures from the whych opinion I am as farre of as you and a greate waye farther excepte you reuoke some poyntes of youre Booke You shoulde therefore nowe haue kepte you to the improuyng of thys generall proposition and if hereafter in speakyng of particular matters I had approued any thing against the word of God you might haue spent ▪ your wit and eloquence in confuting of that You saye that thys place of Saynte Augustyne maketh muche agaynst me c. but you are greatly deceyued for Saint Augustyne in that place doth not gyue a certayne rule to the whole Churche but to particular men for it is hys aunswere so Ca ulanus demaundyng of hym Vtrùm liceat sabbato ieiunare A priuate man maye not take vpon hym to violate the particular orders of anye particular Churche much lesse suche orders as be obserued of the whole Churche excepte they be agaynst the Scriptures for bothe in thys and suche other rules of Augustyne that is generally to be obserued whyche the same Augustyne dothe adde in hys 118. Epistle ad Ianuarium quod nequè contra fidem nequè bonos mores iniungitur c. And that thys Augu. ep 〈◊〉 rule In bis rebus de quibus nihil certi c. is gyuen to particular men to dryue them from schismes and contentions in the Churche it is euident by that whyche the same Augustyne writeth in the ende of that Epistle ad Casulanum VVherefore if Idem you wyll willyngly content your selfe wyth my counsell namely whych haue in this cause being by you required and constrayned spoken peraduenture more than enough doe not resiste your Byshoppe herein and followe that whyche he dothe wythout any scruple or doubte Wherefore when Saint Augustyne sayth Mos populi Dei c. hys meanyng is that they are to be obserued as rules to kéepe priuate and particular men in order and in quiet obedience to the Churche Althoughe in deede The Church may not alter any order generally obserued without iust cause the Churche it selfe maye not wythoute iuste cause chaunge suche thyngs as haue beene generally obserued not beyng contra fidem bonos more 's agaynst faythe and good manners as the Lordes daye the daye of the Resurrection Ascention and suche lyke And there maye be iuste causes why thyngs once determyned by the Churche shoulde not be chaunged afterwardes thoughe before the same thyngs were arbitrarye and myghte haue béene otherwyse and in some other manner decréed as the Churche had thoughte moste conuenient If no suche causes be it maye alter anye vse Ceremonye or order whiche it hathe before determyned as Saynt Augustyne hym selfe declareth Epist. 118. ad Ianuarium His Idem enim causis id est propter fidem aut propter mores vel emendari oportet quod perperam fiebat vel institui quod non fiebat Ipsa quippe mutatio consuetudinis etiam quae adiuu t vtilitate nouitate perturbat For these causes that is to saye for faythe and good manners eyther that muste be amended whiche was euyll done or appoynted which was not done for euen that chaunge of Custome whych helpeth throughe profitte doth trouble through noueltie Nowe howe true thys collection of yours is Augustyne prescribeth thys rule to Casulanus that in those thyngs wherein the Scripture hathe determyned no cer aynetie he shoulde followe the Custome of the people of God and the decrees of oure forefathers that is that he shoulde vse hymselfe in those thyngs ▪ that be not agaynste faythe and good manners accordyng to the order of the Churches where he commeth therefore these Customes vpon iuste cause maye not be altered by the Churche let the learned Reader iudge Ap nate man a I sayde may not breake the lawfull and good orders of the Churche thoughe they be not expressed in the worde of God yet maye suche as God hathe gy that authoritie vnto in hys Churche alter and chaunge them as shall be moste 〈◊〉 euen according to this r le of Augustyne bis im 〈◊〉 id est aut propter fidem aut prop ores vel emendari oportet quod perpe m fiebat vel institui quod non f ebat c. before by me recyted We must followe suche cu omes of the Apostles and examples as they haue vsed What examples and customes of the Apostles we must follow and done for vs to followe but suche customes or doyngs of the Apostles as 〈◊〉 eyther peculiar vnto thems lues o 〈◊〉 onely for such 〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉 in ▪ we are not compelled to followe For as in the Scriptures 〈◊〉 be me preceptes generall some onely rsonall so are there in the sa of examples and orders some that for euer are to be obserued and some for a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that there were suche customes and orders among them shal be declared in seue all places as occasion is minis red Whether we haue receyued or maye retayne customes c. of the Papistes or no is partly to be discussed where I speake of apparell and partly in other places where more particular occasion is offered to speake of the same and therefore I will passe it ouer vntill I come to those places Whyther it were well done to fast in all places according to the custome of the place or no is not the question I looke to Augustynes meanyng and purpose not to euerye one of hys examples howbeit I thinke that there is a greate difference betwixte the manner of fastyng vsed then in the Churche and the manner of fasting vsed nowe in some Churches I thinke that in Augustynes tyme a man myghte haue obserued this rule of fastyng wythout anye offence to God But I doe not thinke that he may doe so in lyke manner nowe bycause it is certayne that in the Churche of Rome there are manye wicked opinions bothe of differences of meates tymes c. and also of merite ioyned to theyr fastyng and therefore are contra fidem bonos more 's and so not wythin the compasse of thys rule of S. Augustine I perceyue no repugnancie at all betwixte Ambrose Augustyne Ignatius and The Replyer setteth the fathers together by the eares without cause Tertullian For the Sabboth daye mentioned by Ambrose and Augustyne is not the Lordes daye whych we call the
commaundement of God and are preferred before Gods commaundementes beeing neither contayned in the holy Scriptures nor founde decreed in the Councels of Bishops nor cōfirmed by the custome of the whole Church but are varied innumerably by the diuers maners of diuers Regions so that scarcely or neuer the causes can be found out whiche men followed in appoynting of them when occasion is offered I thinke they ought to he cut off without any doubt Hitherto Augustine Therefore in reciting the wordes of S. Augustine in this place first you haue omitted the wordes going before that expresse his mynde and declare that he meaneth suche ceremonies as be impedimentes to the obseruing of Gods commaundementes for hauing spoken of suche before in manyfest wordes he concludeth as I haue sayde on this sort Omnia itaque talia c. All suche ceremonies c. whiche words you haue fraudulently kept backe Secondly where S. Augustine speaketh of the vnreasonable multitude of ceremonies vsing these wordes innumerabiliter variantur are varied innumerably you haue likwyse lefte out this word innumerably which also expresseth Augustines meaning Laste of all you haue concealed a sentence in the middest whiche is very materiall to the declaring of Augustine his minde The sentence is this Ita vt vix aut omninò nunquà m inueniri possint causae quas in eis instituendis homines secuti sunt So that scarcely or neuer the causes can be founde oute whiche men followed in appoynting of them Whereby it is playne that he also meaneth suche ceremonies as bée appoynted without reason or cause And yet in the latter ende he addeth But the Churche of God beeing placed betwixte muche chaffe and darnell dothe tollerate many thinges c. But I am so farre from defending the multitude or burdensomnesse of ceremonies that I consent in all poyntes with that saying of Augustine wherefore this sentence is nothing to hotte for me but pleaseth me righte well And it had bin more for your commendation if you had not medled withall They whose names I héere recite thoughe I haue not written their wordes yet in the places whiche I haue qnoted doe affirme as muche as I recite them for whiche you might haue founde if you had taken paynes to searche for the same as I thinke verily you haue done and founde little for your purpose and therfore are content to passe them ouer in silence If I make so ofte repetitinons I doe but as I am occasioned by them whome I answere and as you do your selfe in this Replie though it pleaseth you not to be acknowne of it The sentences of Doctors and writers that I stuffe in argue that I haue red them and that I am not ashamed to lay them open to the ende my playne dealing may be séene in alledging of them But what did you before fynde faulte with my Dumbe doctors and can you not nowe abyde them speaking surely I intend not to be directed by so vnconstant a guyde If I proue things that no man denyeth you hadde the lesse laboure in replying If I translate whole leaues to so small purpose they be the sooner answered if vpon so lighte occasions I haue made so often digressions you will take héede I am well assured that you offende not in the lyke which truly you haue forgotten in this place for here is a digression without all reason But I will let your reuerende and modeste speaches passe and not recompence them with the lyke for it neither sauoureth the spirite of God neither yet any modest and good nature but a stomack swelling rather against the person than against the cause My purpose is not in this place to seke for rules to measure Ceremonies by but to proue that in Ceremonies and other externall things muche is lefte to the discretion of the Churche whiche is not to be founde in Scriptures and yet I know none of these rules vnméete for a diuine to search for or to vnderstand vnlesse it be suche a one as contemneth all other mens learning but his owne But how happeneth it that you haue answered nothing to the last place that I haue alleaged out of Augustine Or why say you nothing to my conclusion whiche is that by all those places of this learned father it is euident c. In all this your replie you haue greatly faulted in ignorantia Elenchi for you haue not reasoned nor answered ad idem but spoken altogether from the purpose T. C fauire in ignorantia Elenchi ▪ ¶ The opinion of M. Caluin of things indifferent Chap. 4. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 25. Sect. 2. 3. Pag. 26. 27. 28. Pag. 29. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. But I trust M. Caluines iudgement will weigh something with them who in his Institutions Cap. 13. Sect. 31. 32. speaking of traditions sayth in this sort Bicause the Lorde hath both faithfully and plainly comprehended and declared in the holie scriptures the whole summe of true righteousnesse all the parts of the true worshipping of him and what so euer is necessarie vnto saluation therfore in those things he is only to be heard as a maister or teacher But bicause in externall discipline ceremonies he would not particularly prescribe vvhat we ought to folow bicause he foresavv that this depended vpon the state and condition of the time neyther did iudge one form or maner to be agreable to al ages here we must haue a respect to those general rules which he gaue that according to thē might be examined such things as the necessitie of the Church requireth to be cōmanded for order decencie Finally bicause in these things he hath expressed nothing for that they are neither necessarie to saluation and may be diuersly applied to the edifying of the Church according to the maner and custome of euery countrey and age Therfore as the cōmoditie of the Church requireth as shal be thought conuenient both the old may be abrogated nevve appointed I graunt that we must not rashely nor often nor for euery lighte cause make innouations But vvhat hurteth and vvhat edifieth charitie wil best iudge which if vve vvil suffer to be the moderatrix al shal be safe wel Now it is the office of Christian people vvith a free cōscience vvithout su-superstition with a godlie minde and readie and willing to obey to obserue those things which are appointed according to this rule not to contemne them nor negligently to omit them so farre off ought they to be from breaking them openly thorough disdaine and contumacie But thou wilte say vvhat libertie of conscience can there be in so precise and straight obseruing of them truely the libertie of conscience may well stand vvich it if we shall consider that these lavves and decrees to the which we are bounde be not perpetuall or suche as are not to be abrogated but only externall rudiments of mans infirmities wherof notvvithstanding we all stande not in neede yet vvee all vse them bicause one
are not bound to any suche prescript forme of outward ceremonies and circumstances but haue frée libertie not only to appoynte but also to alter and chaunge the same as shall be thoughte most conuenient so that nothing be done against the word of God and that the generall 1. Cor. 14. rule be obserued 1. Cor. 14. that all things be done decently and in order All thys therefore that you speake of houre place and of the forme of buriall and of mariage c. infirmeth nothing that I haue sayd for these be circumstances not vsed in the seruice of God but in other actions and I speake of suche ceremonies and circumstances as are vsed in the Church about the seruice and worshipping of God whiche were to the Iewes particularly prescribed as appeareth in the places before alleadged but be not so to vs. Chapter 6. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Page 22. Sect. 1. 2. I will not be long whereas you say that they had nothing but was determined by the law and we haue many things vndetermined and left to the order of the Church I will offer for one that you shall bring that we haue left to the order of the Churche to shewe you that they had twentie A large offer but not so soone per formed which were vndecided of by the expresse word of God For as their ceremonies and Sacraments are multiplied aboue ours so grew the number of those cases which were not determined by any expresse word and therefore I will conclude (a) Marke these words that for somuch as we haue the same 〈◊〉 to direct vs in the seruice of God which they had besides that a noble addition of the new testament to make things more manif st and to bring greater light vnto the old testament we haue also precise direction of our religion as they had and therefore those places of Deut. stande in as greate force now touching the gouernmente of the Church as they did then And as for the iudiciall law for as muche as there are some of them made in regard of the region where they were giuen and of the people to whome they were giuen the Prince and Magistrate keeping the substance and equitie of them as it were the marrow may chaunge the circumstances of them as the times and places and manners of the people shall require But to say that any magistrate can saue the life of blasphemers conteniptuous and stubborne Idol ters murderers adulterers incestuous persons and such like which God by his iudiciall law hath commaunded to be put to death I do vtterly deni and am ready to proue if that perteyned to this question And therefore although the iudiciall lawes are permitted to the discretion of the Prince and Magistrate yet not so generally as you seeme to affirme and as I haue often times said that not only it must not be done against the word but according to the word and by it Io. Whitgifte Surely if you can shew me twenty things to be done of them in the seruice of God or discipline of the Church left to the order of the Church and vndetermined in the law for one that I can shew left to the order of our Church you can do more than any man that I know hath either spoken or written Musculus Lo. co after that he hath made a particular Musc. loc com tit de legib recitall of the ceremoniall lawes saithe that God did therefore appoint vnto thē such a number of Ceremonies bicause they should not inuēt any other seing they had Ceremonies inow wherby they might be exercised and as it were by a certain kind of schooling might be instructed in the spirituall sense To our discretion is left as I haue said the most of the circumstances perteyning to both the sacraments most of all externall rites ceremonies and other things that perteyne to comelinesse and order yea and the disposition of many things also which apperteine to the externall discipline and gouernmente of the Church which are to be varied according to time persons and place as shall hereafter be proued If you be able to shewe that the same libertie was lefte vnto them in so many thinges you shall do more than I can conceyue But admttte all this to be true that you say there can be nothing spoken more directly The assertion of T. C. directly eth the Answere for the iustifying of my cause For if the Israelites notwithstanding these places of Deutero had libertie to order things in the Church not comaunded or prescribed vnto them in the word of God then do the Authours of the Admonition vnaptly vse these places of Deuteronomie to proue that those things only are to be vsed and placed in the Church which God himselfe in his word hath commaunded For if the Iewes notwithstanding these precepts did lawfully vse those things that were not in the word commaunded withoute adding to the word or taking from it surely we may do so in like manner And thus haue you taken muche paynes in iustifying that cause which y u would so gladly ouerthrow Wher you say that we haue the same lawes to direct vs in the seruice of God that they had The assertion of T. C. tendeth to Iudaisme if you meane the same morall lawes you say truly but nothing to the purpose if you meane the same ceremoniall lawes which properly are said to be lawes directing them in the seruice of God then do you Iudaizare play the Iew. And certainely I maruell what you meane by this saying séeing that you knowe our externall manner and kind of worshipping of God to be farre distante from theirs and our sacramentes though spiritually the same yet both in number forme matter obseruation and kind of signification much differing from them and especially seing that their ceremoniall law is vtterly abolished Neyther do I well vnderstand what your meaning is when you adde Besides that a noble addition of the newe testamente to make things more manifest and to bring a greater light vnto the old testament For if you meane that the newe testamente is added to the ceremoniall lawe that cannot be so for it is the ende of the Ceremoniall lawe and dothe vtterly abrogate it Nam inis legis Christus c. Christe is the ende of the lawe For as well the figures as the promises conteyned in Rom. 10. the lawe and the Prophetes are fulfilled in the newe Testament by the comming Luke 24. of Christe as he him selfe saythe Luke 24. If you meane that it is added to the morall lawe that is also vntrue for it onely explaneth it it addeth nothing vnto it In déede it bringeth a great lighte to the olde Testament bicause all thinges are there fulfilled whiche were prophe ied of and prefigured in the olde Testament M. Caluin Caluin inst Institu Cap. 3. Sect. 9. saythe that to thinke Christ to haue added any thing to the law is
Christ and of his resurrection else but that such a one should be chosen which was sufficiently instructed and had bene continually a scholler of our sauiour Christ and therefore fit to teache and to witnesse that which they had seene and whose godly conuersation was notorionsly knowne Besides that albeit those two Mathias and Barsabas were therfore set vp in the middest that the Church in the prayer that was made for their election might by seing them pray the earnestlyer for them yet it was also as much to say that if any coulde obiect any thing against them that he should preferre his obiection And whether they were examined or s the matter is not great neyther when it is sayd that a tryall shoulde be had it is ment that when the parties are famously knowne to those which haue the right of election that there shoulde be alwayes necessarily an apposing and examining so that the sufficiencie of doctrine and holynesse of life for the which cause the tryall and examination is commaunded be knowne and agreed vpon by them that chose it is enough And so these two beyng notoriously knowen and consented of by the Churche to be fitte men myght happely not be examyned but yet the wordes of Saynt Peter declare plainely that in the choyse of them there was regarde had to both their abilitie to teache and honestie of conuersation And althoughe there be certaine things extraordinarie in thys election (b) If all these be extraordinarie what haue you left in that election as ordinary or how proue you the other to be ordinarie more than some of these as that suche a one must be chosen which had been conuersant wyth our sauiour Christ and that there were two put vp for one place and that it was permitted to lottes to cast the Apostleship vpon one of them two as if the Lorde shoulde by the lottes from heauen tell who shoulde haue it yet it followeth not to saye that the reste of the things that are there vsed should not be practised in ordinarie callings for as much they will well agree with them And Maister Caluine in the place you alleage saythe that the ordinarie callings somewhat differ from the calling of the Apostles and after sheweth wherein that is in that they were appoynted immediatly of God and by hys mouthe whereby it appeareth that for the residue of those things whych are there mentioned he holdeth that they may well stande wyth the ordinarye elections Io. Whitgifte This Replie standeth all by coniectures it is certayne that there was no triall had of them bicause they were sufficiently knowne and therefore the texte without discretion alleaged to proue that there oughte to be a tryall of theyr abilitie to instruct c. If it had bene quoted to proue that suche as were admitted into the function were méete for the same bothe sor their lyfe and doctrine it had bene to some purpose I thynke it necessarye that suche as bée admitted into the ministerie vnlesse they bée verye well knowne shoulde be tryed bothe in learning and lyfe but this place maketh nothing at all for that purpose but rather contrarie for it speaketh of suche two as were well knowne and therefore néeded no tryall so that if wée conclude any thyng of that place it muste bée this that none oughte to bée admitted into the ministerie but suche as be well knowne and néede no tryall There was no other cause of presentyng them than that whyche is expressed in the texte and it is presumption to make the Scripture serue to maynteyn oure contentions agaynste the expresse woords and playn meaning If thys be a rule to be followed it muste be followed wholly for where haue you learned to adde or take from any lawe or rule prescribed in Gods woorde or howe doe ye knowe that this example must be followed in one thing and not in an other what speciall reuelation haue you to make any suche dismembring of this action No doubte thys example is extraordinarie and not of necessitie to bée followed The woordes of M. Caluine are playne that there can be no certaine rule gathered of this example for the electing of ministers bicause the calling of the Apostles doth something differ from the calling of other ministers Chap. 1. the second Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 36. In the sixt of the Actes mention is made of Deacons only whom you will not allowe to be ministers of the worde and therfore this place serueth not your tourne neyther is there any thing spoken of any tryall but only they are willed to looke out among them seauen men of honest report and full of the holie Ghost and wisdome to be appoynted Deacons T. C. Page 24. Sect. 5. And where you saye that the sixte of the Actes bycause it speaketh of Deacons is nothyng to the mater me thynke you shoulde haue easily vnderstanded that if a tryall bee necessarie in Deacons whiche is an vnder office in the Churche and hathe regarde but to one parte of the Churche whyche is the poore and is occupied in the distribution of money muche more it ought to be in an office of greater charge whiche hath respect to the whole Churche and is occupied in the dispensyug of the holy worde of God Io. Whitgifte That there shoulde be a tryall of suche as are to be admitted to the ministerie I thinke it moste conuenient as I tolde you before excepte the parties be sufficiently known to such as haue authoritie to admit them but I say that this place of the Acts dothe not proue it both bicause the office of a Deacon by their opinion is altogether distinct from the office of a minister of the woord the one perteyning to the body the other to the soule the one occupied aboute moneye the other in the woorde and also for that there is in that place no mention made of any triall That place rather proueth that whyche before was noted A t. 1. that suche onely shoulde be appoynted to that office as bée knowne by good experience to be fitte for suche a function Tell me one worde in that texte that signifieth any such tryall as the Admonition speaketh of Therfore I say againe as I sayd before that suche as be well knowne néede no farther tryall as both that example Act. 1. and this also Act. 6. manifestly declareth Chap. 1. the third Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 36. Sect. 1. The rule of Saincte Paule in the. 1. Timo. 3. and Tit. 1. is to bee The booke of ordering ministers iustified concerning examination folowed And the booke of ordring ministers and deacons set forth and allowed by this Church of England requireth that whosoeuer is to be admitted into the order of the ministerie should so be tried examined and proued both for learning and life as S. Paule there requireth Reade the booke with indifferencie and iudgement and thou canst not but greatly commend it If any man neglect his dutie in
when doe partiall and sinister affections more vtter themselues than when an election is committed to manie And where as you say that vpon one mannes reporte all the rest whyche haue interest in the election woulde not gyue theyr voyces so sieyghtly to any Experience teacheth you cleane contrarie for doe you not sée that in all suche Elections for the moste parte some one man ruleth the reste Moreouer where is the requeste of suche as bée in authoritie for any denyed in suche elections I coulde bring you a number of examples If the Election of the minister shoulde bée commytted to euery seuerall Parish doe you thynke that they woulde choose the méetest shoulde not the Lorde of the towne or some other among them of countenaunce leade them as he liste woulde they haue no respecte to theyr neyghboures chyldren thoughe not the méetest wōulde there be no contention among them would they not haue lyke people lyke Pastoure But of thys also more muste bée spoken in an other place That in the fyrste of the Actes is nothyng for youre purpose for there is no order of Election prescribed but an extraordinarie callyng to an extraordinarie office as I haue sayde before Neyther dydde the multitude presente them but onely the Apostles as M. Beza sayeth Lib. conf cap. 5. titu 35. Neyther were they examyned as is also declared and therefore that place altogether impertinent To that in the sixte of the Actes I haue answered sufficientely it proueth not examination And M. Beza in the aforenamed booke and Chapter sayeth plainly that Luke hathe not sette downe what the Churche did obserue in the election of Deacons and shortely after concludeth thus Certam igitur regulam non est quòd nimiùm curiosè quisquam hic praescribae sed si recta fuerit conscientia facilè fuerit pro temporum Beza lib. eonf cap. 5. locorum circumstantia definire quid expediat Therefore there is no cause why anye man shoulde here ouer-curiously prescribe anye certayne rule But if the conscience be vpryght it may be easy to determine what is conuenient for the circumstance of tyme and place And these woordes he speaketh of that place of the Actes But I The elections Act. 1. Act. 6. do nothing agree praye you answere mée this one question if you will make these two places Act. 1 Act. 6. rules whiche wée muste of necessitie follow in electing of ministers howe will you ioyne them together béeyng in nothyng lyke for Acto 1. the Apostles presented two to the people Acto 6. The whole multitude did present seuen to the Apostles Acto 1. they caste lottes Acto 6. they layde on handes Acto 1. they prayed to God to shewe whether of the two he had chosen Acto 6. there is no suche thyng Acto 1. of two that were presented one was chosen Acto 6. all were chosen that were presented so that there is great difference in the two places and therefore no prescript rules for vs to follow Chap. 1. the fy fte Diuision T. C. Page 24. Sect. vlt. Secondaryly I can not commende it for that that one man is the Archedeacon whiche muste examine the Pastors and iudge of their sufficiencie For what is the Archdeacon is he not a Deacon for he beyng the chiefe Deacon muste needes be also a Deacon himself And therfore although the chiefe Deacon yet inferiour to any of the Pastours and the * gyfts whych are 1. Tim. 3. requyred in him inferioure to those whiche are required in the Pastour and so to make hym iudge of the aptnesse and ablenes of the Pastor is to make the inferiour in giftes iudge of the superiour he that hathe by his calling lesse gyftes iudge of his which hath by his calling greate gifts which is nothyng else than to appoynte hym that hath but one eye to ouersee his syght that hath two Io. Whitgifte You will not stand in this reason I think when you haue somthing better remēbred T. C. reasoneth against himselfe your self wil you not haue the Archdeacon bicause he is but a deacon examine the Pastors and iudge of thier sufficiencie do you think y t bicause he is inferior to y e pastors the gifts requyred in hym inferioure to those whyche are required of the Pastours ▪ therefore hée is not méete to examine the Pastor and to iudge of his aptnesse What greater argument can be vsed agaynst your selfe for if this be true how can the people examine the pastors or iudge of their aptnesse being farre inferiour to Deacons in respecte of their office and in giftes not lyke vnto them or howe can you admitte your Seniors to the examination or allowing of them not onely béeing inferiour in office and calling but in giftes also yea the moste of them rude and ignorant for suche Seniors you must of necessitie haue if you wil haue any Surely I maruel that you haue so much forgotten your selfe A Deacon is superiour to the people yea to youre Seniors though you denie it and mo giftes required in him than in both the other 1. Tim. 3. Wherefore if he be not méete to examine pastors and iudge of their sufficiencie bicause that were to make the inferior in giftes to iudge of the superior c. much lesse are the people and your Seniors able to be examiners and iudges in that matter Furthermore if none must examine and iudge of the Pastor but suche as be superior or at the least equall vnto him and suche in whom moe or as many giftes are required then truly I sée not to whom this office may more orderly or safely be committed than to the Bishop who is superiour to the Pastour bothe in office and also in giftes It is not true that the booke committeth the examination of ministers onely to the Archdeacons or especially it is otherwise in the beginning of the booke in plaine words Your reason wherby you would proue an Archdeacon to be only a deacon is no reason at all for what sequele is there in this argument an Archdeacon is the chief deacon Ergo he is only a Deacon as thoughe you were ignorant of the state of oure Church and knew not that Archdeacons may be also ministers of the worde Chap. 1. the sixt Diuision T. C. Pag. 25. Sect. 1. Thirdly I mislyke the booke bicause it permitteth y e the Bishop may admit the minister vpon the credit report of the Archdeacon and vpon his examination if ther be no opposition of the people which appereth by these words in the booke wheras to the Archdeacon saying thus Reuerend father in God I present vnto you these persons to be admitted to be Priests c. The bishop answereth Take heed that y e persons whom you present vnto vs be apt meet for their godly cōuersation to exercise their ministerie duly to the honor of God edifying of his church And thervpō I think it commeth that the Archdeacon is called the eye
argument is nothing worth nunquà m licet saith Zuinglius nequè in diuinis nequé in Zainglius profanis à facto ad ius argumentari it is neuer lawful neither in diuine nor in prophane matters to argue * à facto ad ius Neyther is the text as you report it for the words do not Of a deede or example to make a lawe signify that Paule would not haue takē him with him vnlesse they had al giuen such testimonie of him neither can there be any such sense truly gathered out of that place And it is manifest that the Apostles receiued Paule into their company at the testimonie and commendation of Barnabas only Act. 9. Chapter 1. the. 11. Diuision Ansvvere of the Admonition Pag. 38. Sect. 1. You say that there be admitted into the ministerie of the basest sort of the people I know not what you mean by the basest sort this I am sure of that the ministerie is not now bound to any one tribe as it was to the tribe of Leui in Ieroboams time now none is secluded from that function of any degree state or calling so that those qualities be founde in him whiche in that office are to be required T. C. Page 26. Lin 14. You know they meant by the basest of the people such as gaue but one leape out of the shop into the Church as sodainly are changed out of a seruing mans coate into a ministers cloake making for the most part the ministerie their last refuge c. And seeing that besides the words be playne the dayly experience teacheth it you neede not make it so straunge as though you knew not what they meant Io. Whitgifte I heare you say so but why did they then quote the. 1. Reg. 1 〈◊〉 3 that manifestly proueth the same sense that I haue gathered of their words and that text onely occasioned me so to do Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 38. Sect. 2. 3. 4. I maruell to what purpose the twelfth chapiter of the first booke of kings is here quoted for Ieroboam is there reproued bycause hee tooke the priesthoode from the tribe of Leui to the which only it dyd apperteyne The Papists neuer tooke so great occasion of slaundring the Gospell Offences gyuen to the Pa pists by their contentions at the ignorance of the ministers for they haue of themselues those that be as ignorant and more as they do at your schismes and fond opinions wherwith you disquiet the peace of the Churche and lay stumbling blocks before the weake for the which God will surely call you to accoumpt The second chapter to the Romaynes is here quoted only to painte the margent Io. Whitgifte All this is passed ouer in silence VVhether Idolatrous sacrificers and Massemongers may aftervvard be ministers of the Gospell Chapter second the first Diuision Admonition The seconde In those days o 〈◊〉 5. 4. 〈◊〉 ▪ 44. 10. 12. 13. Ierem. 23. no Idolatrous sacrificers of Heathenish priests wer appointed to be Preachers of the Gospell but we allow and like well of Popish massemongers me for all seasons King Henries priestes king Edwards Priests Queene Maries Priests who of a truth if Gods word were precisely followed should from the same be vtterly remoued Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 38. Sect. vlt. The place in the fifth chapter of the Hebrues quoted in the margent speaketh nothing of Idolatrous sacrificers or heathenishe Priestes but onely by the example of Aaron proueth that no man ought to intrude himselfe into the office of a Bishop or Priest except he be called of God Lord how dare these men thus wring the scriptures In the 23. of the Prophet Ieremy there is much spokē against false prophets but not one word for any thing that I see to proue that idolatrous sacrificers maye not be admitted to preache the Gospell Io. Whitgifte To this is nothing answered Chap. 2. the second Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 39. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. Pag. 40. Sect. 1. The places of the 44. of Ezechiell haue some shew in them for there the Lord commaundeth the Leuites which had committed Idolatrie to be put from their dignitie and not to be receiued into the priestes office but to serue in inferioure ministeries I thinke you will not make this a generall rule to debarre suche from preaching of the Gospell as haue through infirmitie fallen be now with hartie repentance retourned We haue many examples to the contrary Peter forswore his master Christ which was as euill Peters forswearing as sacrificing to Idolls and yet he was not put from his Apostleship We haue diuers examples in the Primitiue Church of suche as by feare being compelled to sacrifice to strange gods after repented and kepte still the office of preaching the Gospell and did moste constantly die in the same T. C. Page 26. Sect. 1. What ought to be generall if this ought not to put the minister that hath bin an Idolater from his ministerie is it not a commaundemente of God and giuen not of one Leuite or two but of all 2. Cha. 23. those that went backe not at one time but at others also when the like occasion was giuen as appeareth in the booke of the kings where all the priests of the Lord that had sacrificed in the high places were not suffered to come to the altar in Ierusalem Doth not S. Paule make smaller 1. Tim. 3. causes of deposing from the ministerie than Idolatrie For after he hath described what maner of men the ministers should be and Deacons he addeth And being tried (a) S Paule his words and meaning falsisyed let them execute theyr functions as long as they remayne blamelesse I thinke if so be a man had bin knowne to be an adulterer although he repented him yet none that is well aduised would take him into the ministerie for if S. Paule reiect him that had ij wiues at once which was a thing that the Iewes and Gentiles thought lawfull and that was common amongst them and had preuayled throughout all the world how much lesse would he suffer any to be admitted to the ministerie which should be an adulterer and haue another mans wife which is condemned of all that professe the name of Christ and which is not so general a mischiefe as that was and suffer him to abide in the ministerie which should committe such wickednesse during his function and likewise of a murtherer now the sinne of Idolatrie is greater and more detestable than any of them in as much as perteyning to the first table it immediatly stayneth Gods honoure and breaketh duetie to him vnto whome we more owe it without all comparison than to any mortall man And if S. Paule in the choise of the widowe to attend vpon the sicke of the Churche which was the lowest office in the Churche requireth not only such a one as is at the time of the choise honest and holy
Churche of England but by such as haue bene Massemongers and now zealous godly learned preachers T. C. Pag. 27. Sect. 2. 3. But you aske what they saye to M. Luther Bucer Cranmer Latimer Rid ey I praye you when did these excellent personages euer slide from the Gospel vnto Idolatrie which of them did euer say Masse after God had opened them the truth what hath so (a) Euen the A monition which I confu e for it speaketh generally and maketh no such distinct blinded you that you can not distinguishe put a difference betwene one that hauing bene noussed from hys youth vp in Idolatrie commeth afterwardes out of it and betwene him which hauing knowledge of the Gospel afterward departeth from it and of such is the place of Ezechiel of such I say as haue gone backe and fallen away I knowe none that haue bene Preachers of the Gospell and after in the tyme of Queene Mary Massemongers which now are zealous godly and learned preachers if there be any such I thinke for offence sake the Churche mighte better be withoute them than haue them You saye God in that place sheweth howe greeuous a synne Idolatrie is in the Priestes especially And is it not nowe more greeuous in the Minister of the Gospell whose function is more precious and knowledge greater and if the synne be greater shoulde it haue nowe a lesse punishment than it had then howe shall the faulte be esteemed greate or little but by the greatnesse or smalnesse of the punishment you sayde before the places of Deuteronomie touching adding and diminishing nothing from that which the Lorde commaundeth were for the Iewes and are not for our times And this commaundement of God in Ezechiel you say serued for that time and not for ours Io. Whitgifte The examples of M. Luther Bucer Cranmer c. do sufficiently confute the Admonitiō The exāples of Luther c. are directly against the Admonition the words wherof be these In those dayes no Idolatrous sacrificers or heathenish priests were appoynted to be preachers of the Gospell but we allow and like well of Popish Massemongers men for all seasons king Henries priests c. here you sée that they doe not onely condemne suche as once knowing the truth haue afterwards departed from it but suche also as haue at any time sacrificed why shoulde they else name king Henries priests seing it is euident that the masse was not abolished in King Henries time so that I haue better cause to aske what hath so blinded you that you could not vnderstand their meaning the words being so plaine or rather that you would in that point wilfully blind your self others also I know some that being preachers of the Gospell after in the time of Queene Mary massemongers which now are zealous godly learned preachers of as good fame and credit with godlie men as any be in this land without offence be it spoken neither be the quiet humble members of the Churche offended with them but reioyce at their conuersion and praise God for them But you frame your doctrine according to your affection towardes certaine persons Doctrine framed according to mens persons as y e maner now a dayes of some is for this doctrine hath béen taught generally that no Idolatrous priest shuld remaine in the ministerie these examples of Luther Bucer c. haue béen lightly reiected as repugnant to the conunaundement of God but now being better aduised remembring that some in that case be great promoters of your opinions this mitigation forsooth must be made that such as were preachers in king Edwards time c. they I meane your fautors were professors though they were no preachers they were also in Quéene Maries time Massemōgers now they be preachers yet all is well for you haue the law in your hands to coyne what opinions you list to adde to them or to take frō them what you list to apply not apply them to whom and when you list euen Popelike The sinne of Idolatrie is nowe as great an offence as it was then but the external ciuill punishment for the same is in the power of the Magistrate being a portion of Tract 2. cap. 6. the. 5. diuision the iudiciall law the necessitie wherof is wholy abrogated as I haue proued before Those precepts in Deut. were giuen to the Iewes both for the iudiciall ceremoniall law also they be giuen to vs for the law of faith good maners only for we are clearely deliuered from the ceremonies of the law the iudicials wherof this in Ezechiel is a portion are not enioyned to Christians vpō any necessitie but left to the discretion of the ciuil Magistrate And therfore I haue said nothing either of those places of Deut. or of this of Ezech. which I wil not by learning good authoritie iustifie Chap. 2. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 39. Sect. vlt. God in that place of the prophet Ezechiel sheweth how greeuous a sinne idolatrie is especially in the priests but he prescribeth no generall rule of secluding them from their ministerie if they falling afterward repent T. C. pag. 27. Sect. 4. You worke a sure way which to mainteine your corruptions denie the scripture which speaketh against them to be vnderstanded of those which be in our time that to be vnderstanded of our ministers which was of theirs or of our faultes which was of theirs This is not the way to Anabaptisme but to all heresies schismes that euer haue bene or shall be For if you goe forwarde in clipping the scripture as you begin you will leaue vs nothing in the end wherwith we may eyther defend our selues against heretikes or be able to strike at them Io. Whitgifte I neither denie the scriptures nor clip them neither can my doctrine open the way to any heresie but I speake of them in this point as all learned and sounde writers doe olde or newe if I do not disproue me not by words but by reasons and authorities Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 40. Sect. 1. Besides this there is a great difference betwixte the seueritie of the lawe and the lenitie of the Gospell betwixte the externall regiment of the Churche before Christ and the Church after Christ neither can you make the one in all poyntes correspondent to the other Likewise betwixt the declining of those Priests which was wholly from God to Gentilitie the falling of ours to Papistrie which confesseth the same articles of fayth that we doe although not sincerely It is one thing wholly to worship false Gods an other thing to worship the true God falsly and superstitiously But among all other things I woulde gladly knowe wherein king Edwards priests haue offended you It is happie you let Queene Elizabeths priests alone I maruell whose priests you are T. C. Page 27. Sect. 5. 6. Wheras you say there
neyther so straunge nor so vntrue as you would séeme to make the reader beléeue I haue set downe those authors which haue taught me so to say Bullinger vppon the same place sayeth thus Caeterum dictio 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ita ponitur vt velsuffragijs populi delectos esse vel manuum impositione inauguratos intelligere possimus But the woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is so placed that wee may vnderstande either that they were chosen by the voyces of the people or ordeyned by the laying on of handes M. Caluine vpon the same place hath these woordes Verbum Graecum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 significat Caluin aliquid manibus sublatis discernere qualiter in commitijs populi fieri solet Scriptores tamen ecclesiastici nomen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 alio sensu vsurpant nempè pro solenni ordinationis ritu qui in Scripturis vocatur manuum impositio The greeke woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth to determine some thing by holding vp of handes according as it was vsuall in the assemblies and elections of the people notwithstanding the Ecclesiasticall wryters vse this woorde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in an other sense For the solemne manner of ordering which in the scriptures is called the laying on of handes And this saying of M. Caluine hathe Marlorat also written in his collections as allowyng the same The same M. Caluine Instit cap. 8. Sect. 65. Sequitur iam vt tractemus c. It foloweth nowe that we shoulde intreate of the maner wherby the ministers of the primitiue Churche were placed in theyr office This the Latinistes call ordering or consecration the Grecians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and sometimes also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 although 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is properly called that kynde of election wherin the voyces are signifyed by lifting vp of handes Gualter Lykewise Gualter vpon the fourtéenth of the Actes Deinde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mentionem facit Lucas c. Furthermore Luke maketh mention of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the which not onely the gathering of voyces but also the laying on of handes whiche was a signe of consecration maye be signifyed And surely the latter seemeth moste conueniente For it is not lykely that the Apostles woulde departe from that order whiche wee see to haue bene obserued in the election of Matthias and permitte any thing to the iudgemente of man whiche in voyces oftentymes commeth to passe seeyng that they stirred vp the whole Churche to prayer and fasting Thus then you sée that the matter is nothing so straunge as you make it for all these learned wryters affirme as muche touching the acceptation of this woorde as I haue done and if you will giue mée leaue to alleadge the Canons attributed to the Apostles as you do I wil fynde it there taken in thesame signification also for in Can. Apost 1. 2. the first Canō it is thus written 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Let a bishop be ordeyned of two or three Bishops And in the second Can. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lette a minister be ordeyned of one Bishop You can not denie but that the olde translations and commentaries also make only mention of electing and ordeyning and not of electing or ordeyning by voyces Oecumenius in his commentaries vpon this place dothe affirme that Paule and Barnabas did create and ordeyne them so doe other lykewise and howesoeuer the worde in Chrysostome is translated yet Chrysostome giueth no signification in hys Chaysost in 14. in Act. commentaries that his meaning was so But Hom. 14 in Act. he wryteth thus Vide quomodò scriptor c. Marke howe the writer is not superfluous for he dothe not declare how but he simply declareth that they were ordeyned by prayers for this i' 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ordinatio that is to say ordeyning the handes are layde vpon the man but God worketh the whole and it is his hande that toucheth the head of him that is ordeyned if he be ordeynedas Hierome as he ought to be Hierome also writing vppon the. 58. of Esaie sayeth that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is vsuallye taken for the ordeining of Clerkes by Prayer and laying on of handes I denie not but that many doe translate it as you saye yet is it doubtefull in 〈◊〉 diuers of them whether they ment the voyces of the whole Churche or of the ministers or of Paule and Barnabas onely M. Bullinger sayeth that hee is elected by the common suffrages of the people qui optimorum testimonio probatus est whiche is approued by the testimonie of the best And the lawe sayth in publico negotio qui se non apponit cum possit consentire intelligitur he is thought to consent in a publike businesse whiche doth not withstande when he may I thinke your complaint for lack of bookes is without cause verie vnlykely it is to be true all thyngs consydered Howe so euer M. Caluine or M. Bullinger doe take that worde themselues yet haue they affirmed as muche of the other signification as I haue doone and therfore the more lyke to be true Neyther haue you as yet alleaged any thing that can proue the contrarie You maye not teache the Holye Ghoste howe to speake neyther muste you in suche matters vse so lyghte and vayne reasons Neyther M. Bullinger nor M. Caluine disalloweth that signification or goeth aboute to confute it and you youre selfe confesse that the Greeke Ecclesiasticall wryters haue semetyme vsed it so as in déede they commonly doe which maye easily be vnderstanded by that that I haue hitherto spoken Hee that layeth hys handes vpon a mannes head dothe lyfte them vp be fore hée can laye them on and therefore you doe but trifle in makyng so muche a doe aboute holdyng vp and laying downe There bée other weordes I graunt to expresse thys Ceremonie of laying on of handes and I knowe that Luke and Paule doe vse an other woorde for the same and the Septuagint in lyke manner but what is all thys to the purpose What can you conclude hereof Is thys sufficiente to proue that thys woord therefore in this place may not signifie the same are these bare coniectures sufficiente to improue so manye learned mennes iudgementes I doe not saye that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dothe signifye onely the bare Ceremonie of laying on of handes but the whole solemnitie of creatyng Ministers whyche is also sometymes signifyed by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as namely 1. Ti. 9. But Saincte Luke when he vseth in other places 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he dothe vse it in the bare signification of laying on of handes and not for any other ryte or solemnitie as he doth this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in thys place and therefore you doe petere principium when you frame youre proofes as thoughe it were affirmed or graunted that Saincte Luke by this worde shoulde meane onely the bare ceremonie of imposition of handes T. C. bringeth a
Maxentius and Licinius did then persecute persecution in Constantines time And therefore you see you are greatly deceyued in your accompt Now if it be as lawfull for vs to vse M. Caluins authoritie which both by example and writinges hath always defended our cause as it is for you to wring him and his words to things which he neuer inent and the contrary whereof he continually practised then this authoritie of yours is dashed For M. Caluine saith whereas it is saide in that councell that the election shoulde not be permitted to the people it meaneth nothing else but that they should make no election without hauing Vpon the Acts. 16. some ministers or men of iudgement to direct them in their election and to gather their voyces and prouide that nothing be done tumultuously euen as Paule and Barnabas were chefe in the election of the Churches And euen the same order would we haue kept in elections continually for auoyding of confusion for as we woulde haue the libertie of the Churche preserued whiche Christ hath bought so deerely from all tyrannie So do we agayne condemne and vtterly abhorre the barbarous confusion and disorder Io. Whitgifte Where do those that write the Centuries suspecte that Canon why note you not the place there is not one worde tending to that end in that place where they speake of this Councell Neyther as I thinke are you able to shew any suche thing affirmed by them and it is the first time that euer I either red or heard it doubted whether thys were a Canon of that councell or no. In the. 4. Cent. col 435. I find these words variant ab ac consuetudine mirum qua veritate constitutiones Concilij Laodiceni quae ordinationes iudicio multitudinis fieri probibuerunt The constitutions of the Councel of Laodicea which forbad Cent. 4. the ordeyning of ministers to be done by the iudgement of the multitude do varie from this custome of electing by the people it is maruel by what truth But no mā can hereof gather that they doubt whether this Canon be a bastard or no. Only they doubt whether this decrée was made according to the truth The general Councel at Cōstantinople which is called Synodus 6. did both allow this councell and ratifye it It is not greatly materiall at what time this Councell was holden Neyther dothe it follow that bycause this decrée was now made against such elections of the people therefore the people had before this time in al places interest in electing of ministers for it may be that some claimed this interest and moued the people to contende for it then as you do now and therefore the Synode might vpon that occasiō make this determination as the like might be made at this time in this Churche of Englande against such parishes as take vpon them the election of their Pastors as you before affirmed Page 3. some to do and yet we could not therevpon truly conclude that before the time of this prohibition the election of ministers was either generally or orderly cōmitted to the people in this Church of England I haue not in any place said that this order of choosing the minister by the voyces of the Church was but in the Apostles time and during the time of persecution neither yet that they could clayme it of dutie in either of these times or that it was then generall and in all places for I haue before shewed the contrary And where you thinke that I will not say the Churche was vnder persecution in Constantines The Church in persecution in Constantines time time though it be not materiall yet must I tell you that I thinke it was for euē then Maxentius and Licinius did persecute and continued in persecuting by the space of 13. yeares after Constan. began his reygne and it is saide of Licinius that he killed many thousandes of Christians I haue not at any time wrung M. Caluines words to any other sense than he hymselfe hath written them if it be otherwise make it knewne for I haue delt playnely and set downe his words so haue not you In his Institutions cap. 8. Sect. 63. thus he writeth of this Councell Est quidem illud fateor c. And surely I confesse that it was Caluine of the Councell of Laodicea vpon great reason decreed in the Councell of Laodicea that the election shoulde not be permitted to the multitude for it scarcely at any time happeneth that so many heads shuld with one consente determine any thing And that saying is almost true that the vnstable multitude is deuided into contrary factions c. Then doth he tell what order was obserued in elections firste the Cleargy only did choose then did they offer him whome they had chosen to the magistrate or to the Senate and chiefe rulers who after deliberation did confirme the election if they liked of it if not then did they choose another whome they thought to be more méete In the ende the matter was propounded to the multitude rather to know their desire and require their testimonie than to gyue them any interest either of choosing or refusing this is the summe of Caluines meaning and this he saith was the meaning of that Councell which I say is in ffect to take away the election from the people Your note in the margent must be corrected for Caluine hath no suche thing vpon the. 16. of the Acts but the like he hath vpō the. 14. howbeit the words of the Councel be playne quòd non sit permittendum turbis electiones eorum facere qui sunt ad sacer dotium prouebendi Concil Laodicen Can. 13. That it ought not to be permitted vnto the multitude to make elections of them which should be preferred to the ministerie And there can be no doubt of the meaning of the Councell bycause it appeareth in the. 12. Canon that they would haue Byshops preferred to ecclesiasticall dignitie by the iudgement of the Metropolitane and other Can. 12. Byshops Libertie and tyrannie be too common in your mouth It is no tyranny to restraine the people from that libertie that is hurtfull to themselues and must of necessitie ingender contentions tumults and confusion Chap. 6. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Page 37. Sect. 3. But if Councels be of so great authoritie to decide this controuersie thē the most famous Councell of Nice wil strike a great stroke with you which in an Epistl that it writeth vnto the Church of Egipt as Theodoret maketh mention speaketh thus It is meete that (a) This is 〈◊〉 of the Clearg not of the people you should haue power both to choose any man and to giue their names which are worthy to be amongst the Cleargy and to do all things absolutely according to the law and decrees of the Church and if it happen any to dye in the Church then that those which were last taken to be promoted to the honoure of him that is
a Minister of the worde To conclude if the election of a Byshop had of necessitie perteyned to the people Paule woulde not haue written in this manner to Timothie as he hath done describing vnto him what qualities he that is to be elected Byshoppe oughte to haue but he woulde rather haue written the same to the people or willed Timothie to declare it vnto them Neyther doth he any where in any of hys Epistles wryte to any Church to gyue them any instructions in this so necessarie a matter but onely wryteth of the same in those Epistles to Timothie and Titus beyng Byshops which maye be an argument that the ordering of Ministers doth properly apperteyne to a Bishop and that thys also manus citò c. is spoken to Timothie in that respect A man mave wryte to hys friende that hath interest in an election but Paul doth not onely write vnto Timothie as to one that hath interest but as to one in whom the whole interest consisteth When you say that Paule attributeth that to Timothie that was common to him wyth moe if you meane moe Bishops then it is true for it is a rule for all Bishops to follow but if you meane other of the people then doe you but shifte of the matter with ghessing To your proofes of that phrase and kynde of speache I haue answered before it is but a starting hole to flie vnto when you are foyled by the playne and euident woordes of the Scripture That whiche is by you alleaged 2. Ti. 1. and 1. Ti. 4. maketh for my purpose for you haue before confessed that imposition of handes was not by Fol. 31. Sect. 4. the Churche and people but by the Elders and Ministers and you alleage these places 1. Timo. 4. and 2. Timo. 1. to proue the same And therefore I muche maruell to what ende you nowe alleage them excepte it be to proue your phrase for they cannot proue anye election made by the people vnlesse you will say and vnsay at your pleasure But to put you out of doubt imponere manus to lay on hands somtimes signifieth the To laye on hands is diuersly taken Bullinger ceremonie only of laying on of hands and somtimes the whole maner forme of ordering And in this second signification it is taken 1. Ti. 5. 2. Ti. 1. Bull. expoundyng this place 1. Ti. 5. sayth manus enim imponere aliud non est quā ecclesiae aliquē praeficere ordinare To lay on hands is nothing else but to ordeine appoynt one ouer the Church And interpreting y t also 2. Ti. 1. he saith Paulus in praesenti per donū dei prophetiae donū intellexit functionē Episcopalē ad quam vocarat Timotheū dominus sed per ministeriū Pauli qui ideò nunc ▪ dicit donum illud in Timotheo esse per impositionem manuum suarum Paul doth heere vnderstande by the gifte of God the gifte of Prophecie and the offyce of a Bishop vnto the which the Lord had called Timothie but by the ministerie of Paule who for that cause nowe sayth that that gift was in Timothie by the imposition of his hands And M. Caluine Institu Cap. 8. Sect. 50. decideth this matter fully in these wordes Sed Paulus ipse alibi se Caluine c. But Paule himselfe in another place doth testifie that he and no moe did lay his hands vpon Timothie I admonishe thee sayth he that thou stirre vp the grace which is in thee by the imposition of my handes For where it is sayde in the other Epistle of the laying on of the handes of the eldership I do not so take it as thoughe Paule spake of the Colledge of Elders but in this name videlicet presbyterij I vnderstand the ordination it selfe as if he should say endeuour thy selfe that the grace be not in vayne which thou hast receyued by the laying on of hands when I ordeyned thee a minister Agayne vpon this 1. Tim. 5. he sayth thus Impositio manuum ordinationem significat signum enim pro re ipsa capitur The imposition of handes signifieth the ordering for the signe is taken for the thing it selfe For what is it to appoynt but to call elect ordeyne Moreouer that which Paule sayth to Titus Vt constituas c. dothe expounde this to Timothie manus citò c. and therefore in déede I make no difference in this place betwixte election ordeyning and imposition of handes Last of all you say that you answere though this mighte agree to Timothie alone c. If it agreed to Timothie alone it must néedes followe that it may agrée to other Bishops also for Timothie was a Bishop as it shall be by better reason proued than you Tract 8. are able to shewe any to the contrarie This that you speake of his Euangelistship and of his superioritie in that respect is onely spoken without reason or authoritie but you shall haue store of bothe to the contrarie God willing when I come to that place I am not so lauishe of my witnesses as you are of scornefull and vnséemely tauntes and speaches Bothe Ambrose and Chrysost. doe not say that Paule héere warneth Timothie onely to be circumspect but to be circumspect in appoynting of Ministers and if it were not so I doubt not but that I shoulde heare of it The words are spoken to Timothie in respecte that he was Bishop neither hath the Apostle giuen any suche like Admonition to any Church in any of his Epistles as I haue before noted And therfore Ambrose in his exposition of this place to Timothie after that he had shewed what circumspection the Apostle would haue to be vsed in ordeyning of Ministers concludeth thus Haec Episcopus custodiens castum se exbibebit religioni A Bishop obseruing Ambrose these things shall shewe himselfe pure in religion Whereby he signifieth that this precept is properly perteyning to a Bishop Chrysostome also in the. 1. Tim. 4. vpon Chrysostome these wordes Cum impositione manuum presbyterij sayth Non de presbyteris hoc loco sed de Episcopis loquitur ▪ non enim profectò presbyteri ipsum ordinarunt He speaketh not of priests in this place but of Bishops for certaynely priestes did not ordeyne him And Oecolam Oecolampad vpon the same wordes Presbyteros dicit Episcopos neque enim presbyteri Episcopum ordinabant He calleth Bishops Priestes for Priests did not ordeyne a Bishop Whereby it playnely appeareth that these auncient fathers thinke this precept manus citò ne cui imponas lay thy handes sodenly on no man to be giuen onely to Timothie in the respect that he was Bishop and therefore also to apperteyne vnto Bishops onely to ordeyne Ministers Hierome vpon that place to Titus sayth Audiant Episcopi qui habent constituendi Hierome Presbyteros per vrbes singulas potestatem sub quali lege ecclesiasticae potestatis ordo teneatur Let Bishops which haue authoritie to appoynt
diuers poyntes agrée not fully with him especially in the interpretation of some places of the Scripture when as in my opinion they come néerer to the true meaning and sense of it in those poyntes than he dothe I did neuer cleaue to Musculus or to any other man so that for his or their sakes I derogate any thing from suche as be comparable to them and haue deserued singular commendation for their writings If any one or mo learned men be of my iudgement though all be not I am not ashamed to vse their testimonie in that poynte though in some other poyntes I do not consent vnto them If I either vnioynt or racke in peeces from the rest any worde or sentence of Master Caluines make it knowne set it open that I may iustly beare the blame of it but if I deale truly and faythfully with him if I set downe his owne words whole sentences whole sections and as you say whole leaues without adding altering or diminishing then howe can you excuse your so vntrue and vniust charging of me Which if it were not so common and vsuall with you might the better be tollerated Chapter 7. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 46. Sect. 1. It is the generall consent of all the learned fathers that it perteyneth to the office of a Bishop to order and electe Ministers of the worde In this sayth Hierome in Epist. ad Euagrium A Bishop dothe excell Hierome all other Ministers in that the ordering and appoynting of Ministers dothe properly perteyne vnto him And yet these men saye that the righte of ordering Ministers dothe at no hande apperteyne to a Bishop But for the order and manner of making Ministers peruse the booke made for that purpose and as I sayde before so I say agayne if thou hast any iudgement thou canst not but lyke it and allowe of it T. C. Pag. 40. Sect. 3. 4. 5. In the ende you saye it is the generall consent of all the learned Fathers that it belongeth to the Bishoppe to choose the Minister Because you acquaynte my eares with suche bolde and vntrue affirmations I can nowe the more paciently heare you thus baunting your self as though you had all the fathers by hearte and carried them aboute with you wheresoeuer you wente whereas if a man would measure you by the skill in them which you haue shewed heere he would hardly beleeue that you had red the tenthe parte of them Are all the learned Fathers of that minde I thinke then you would haue bin better aduised than to haue set down but one when as you know a matter in controuersie wil not be tried but by two or three witnesses vnlesse the Lorde speake him selfe and therfore you giue me occasion to suspecte that bicause you cite but * I had cited Am brose and Chrysostome before one you knowe of no more Nowe let vs see what your one witnesse will depose in this matter And fyrst of all you haue done more wisely than simply in that you haue altered Hieromes wordes For where he sayth wherein dothe a Bishop differ from an Elder but onely in ordeyning you saye a Bishop dothe excell all other Ministers c. I reporte me heere vnto your conscience whether you dyd not of purpose chaunge Hierome his sentence bicause you woulde not let the Reader vnderstande what oddes is betweene S. Hieromes Bishops in his dayes and betweene our Lorde Bishops For then the Bishop had nothing aboue an Elder or other mininister but onely the ordeyning of the Minister Nowe he hathe a thousande Parishes where the Minister hathe but one For the matters also of the substaunce of the ministerie the Bishop nowe excommunicateth whiche the Minister can not Besides diuers other things whiche are meere ciuill whiche the Bishop dothe and whiche neither Bishop nor other Minister oughte to doe I saye I reporte me to your conscience whether you altered Hieromes wordes to this ende that you woulde keepe this from the knowledge of your reader or no. For answere to the place it is an (a) It is your argumēt it is none of mine my wor des importetio such thing euill argument to saye the Bishop had the ordeyning of the Minister Ergo he had the election of him The contrarie rather is a good argument the Bishop had the ordeyning of the Minister therefore he had not the election of him For ordination and election are dyuers (b) Diuers mem bers of the whol may concurre in one and the self same person though one of them can not be verified of an other members of one whole whiche is the placing of the Pastor in his Churche and one member can not be verified of an other as you can not saye your foote is your hande I will not denie but that sometimes these wordes may be founde confounded in Ecclesiasticall writers but I wyll shew you also that they are distinguished and that the election perteyneth to the people and (c) Then haue you al this while striued in vay ne ordeyning vnto the Bishop Io. Whitgifte Shew me one Father that denieth that which I héere affirme if you neyther doe nor can then may my skill in the Fathers and reading also be as muche for any thing héere to the contrarie as you thinke I woulde haue it séeme to be But I will not followe you in your vayne of gybing I had cited before Chrysostome and Ambrose for the same purpose so that my witnesses be thrée and therefore sufficient except you wil make some lawfull exception agaynst them but bicause you may vnderstande that I haue plentie and store sufficient I will rehearse but one sentence vnto you of M. Caluines in his Institu Cap. 8. Ordinari Episcopos à suis Metropolitis iubent Caluine omnes veteres Synodi All auncient Synodes do commaund that Bishops should be ordeyned of their Metropolitanes What cause shoulde I haue thus to reporte Hieromes words to proue such difference betwixte the Bishop and other Ministers séeing that dothe not perteyne to this place and agayne considering that I haue at large proued the same in another place Are you so dull of vnderstanding as you would séeme to be doe not bothe the wordes that goe before and those that followe also declare my purpose in vsing that place I doe not translate Hieromes wordes but I declare Hieromes meaning and if the offence be in this that I say a bishop doth excel al other ministers then dothe your owne Author Illiricus out of whome you haue verbatim borrowed so muche and the other writers of the Centu. offende also for thus he sayth Ordinatio ministrorum propria erat Episcopi quo solo iure caeteris sacerdotibus praestantiorem esse Episcopum Centu. 4. ca. 7. Hieronymus scripsit ad Euagrium The ordeyning of Ministers was proper vnto the Bishop by the whiche as Hierome wrote vnto Euagrius a Bishop onely excelleth other priestes out of whom as I haue
substance or being of baptisme whether Pa. 114. Sect. 1. he be minister or no that ministreth that sacrament Pag. 114. And this is that mysterie which you and your fellowes will not as yet openly vtter but craftily dissemble vntill you sée better oportunitie The truth is your intent is rebaptization and flat Anabaytisme But I haue declared sufficiently the vanitie of your collection in thys place and the weakenesse of your reasons touching this matter where you haue gyuen me more especiall occasion to speake of it Tract 9. Chap. 7. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 42. Sect. 2. 3. Seing then that the scripture doth teach this order that there should be no minister thrust vppon the Churche but by the consent thereof and reason perswadeth that ways and the vse of the Church hath bin so from time to time both in peace and in time of persecution both vnder tyrants and godly princes it cannot be without the high displeasure of almightie God the greate hurt and sore oppression of the church that one man should take this vnto him which perteyneth to so many or one minister which perteyneth to more than one especially where the aduise of learned ministers may concurre with the peoples election or consent Now if any man wil rise vp and say that this doctrine bringeth in disorder and by this meanes children boys and women should haue their voyces which is vnseemely all men vnderstande that where the election is most freest and most generall yet only they haue to do whiche are heads of families and that this is but a meere cauill to bring the truth in hatred which is vnworthy to be answered and requireth rather a Censor than a disputer to suppresse it Io. Whitgifte The scripture doth not teach any such order it hathe examples to the contrary it presribeth herein no certayne rule to be perpetuall there is better reason to the contrary if the diuersitie of the time and other circumstances be considered the Church also hath not at all times nor in all places vsed one forme and manner of election not in the Apostles time as it hath bin declared wherefore the Church is neyther hurte nor oppressed if the godly Magistrate alone do appoynt in it Byshops and take such order for admitting other inferioure Pastors as shall be thought to him most conueniente Neyther is God displeased with them for so doing if they séeke his glory therein the godly peace and quietnesse of the Church and haue respect to the end of the Apostles in appointing ministers But he is greatly displeased with those that make a necessitie where none is and trouble the Churches with their owne deuises and make contention for externall matters ¶ It is not necessarie that the people should haue interest in the election of ministers but the contrarie is conuenient Chap. 8. the. 1. Diuision Io. Whitgifte NOwe that you haue vttered all your authorities and reasons to proue that the people ought to haue interest in the electing of their ministers that I haue sufficiently I truste answered the same Lette it not be troublesome vnto you if summarily I collect my reasons that moue me to thinke the contrarie 1. And fyrst I will proue that there is no certaine forme of electing prescribed in Scripture but that the same is left frée for the Churches to appointe as shall bée thought most conuenient for their states and tymes 2. Secondly I will shewe that there hath bene greate diuersitie from tyme to tyme vsed in the Churche touching elections and that the people at all tymes and in all places haue not bene admitted thervnto 3. Last of all I will sette downe the reasons why the people haue bene debarred from such elections and why they ought still so to bée Touching the fyrst these be my reasons 1. Chryst whose factes and déedes we ought especially to followe did of himselfe Math. 10. Luke 10. alone without the consent of any call and choose his Apostles and lykewise the 70. disciples whome he sent to preache 2. The Apostles Acts. 1. altered this maner and forme for they presented two and the one of them was chosen by lotte 3. In the. 6. of the Actes they cleane altered this also for the people presented seuen to the Apostles and they were all chosen withoute lottes the Apostles also layde on their handes vpon them 4. In the. 14. of the Acts this forme is lykewise changed for Paule and Bar abas ordeyned ministers in euery citie without eyther presentment by the people or casting of lottes 5. In the. 13. of the Acts it is manyfest that Paule and Barnabas were sent onely by the Prophetes and Doctours without any consent of the people eyther giuen or required reade the beginning of the Chapter it is playne inough of it selfe 6. Paule sent Timothie and Titus and gaue them authoritie to ordeyne other 1. Tim. 5 2. Tim. 1. Tit. 1. So that it is certayne that here is no prescripte maner and forme appoynted to be obserued for euer séeing that the Apostles themselues did not bynd or tie themselues to anye suche rule which both M. Bullinger Zuinglius and Beza doe lykewyse confesse as I haue before declared And therefore M. Caluine as I tolde you before sayth that of that example in the first of the Acts no certayne rule can be gathered of electing and choosing ministers And M. Beza is of the same iudgement both for that example Act. 1. and the other also of Deacons Act. 6. as I haue lykewise declared before And in that booke of confession and. 5. Chapter he hathe this saying worthie to be noted Bycause the multitude is for the most parte ignorant and intractable and the Beza lib. con cap. 5. greater parte doth oftentymes preuayle agaynst the better not in a popular state lawfully appoynted are all things committed to the vnbridled multitude but certain Magistrates are appoynted by the consent of the people to rule and gouerne them if this wysedome be in worldely affaires muche more is a moderation to be had in those matters wherein men be oftentymes blynded Neyther is there any cause why any man of sounde iudgement should exclame that in such matters there is no place for pollicie except he can shew this policie wherof I speake to be repugnant to the word of God whiche I thinke he can not Hitherto M. Beza and he speaketh of the electors of Ministers And a little after he sayth that wee must not alwayes looke what the Apostles did in Ecclesiasticall pollicie Idem or in the gouernment of the Churche seeing there is so great diuersitie of circumstances that a man can not without preposterous zeale reduce all things in all places and tymes to one and the same forme but it is sufficient if respect be had to their ende and purpose whiche is not variable and that maner and forme vsed whiche leadeth therevnto c. Wherupon also I conclude that in the Scriptures there is no
wordes of Christ receyue the holy Ghost vvhose sinnes so euer ye remitte they are remitted ▪ c. he dothe shewe the principall duetie of a Minister and assureth hym of the assistance of Gods holy spirite if he labour in the same accordinglye You call them his new creatures these be but words of s urrilitie to be hissed at not to be answered T. C. Page 44. Sect. vlt. To say that the Byshop may as well say receiue the holy ghost as to say the wordes vsed in the Supper or to say that the sinnes of those which do beleeue are forgiuen is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as farre as Yorke and London For there are commaundementes to the Ministers to doe that which they doe and heere is none and there the Minister doth not commaunde that the bread be the bodie of Christ but he sayth that it is Neither doth he commaunde that sinnes should be forgiuen but pronounceth in the behalfe of God that they are forgiuen It is not lawfull also that he with the congregation should make a prayer for the assistance or encrease of God his giftes vpon him that is ordeined but to commaund that he should receiue it is meerely vnlawfull For these wordes receiue the holy ghost are the imperatiue mode and doe expressely signifie a commaundement And so the Bishop may as wel say to the sea when it rageth and elleth peace be quiet as to say receiue the holy Ghost And if you thinke it so good reason to vse this in the making of ministers bicause you vse the words of our Sauiour Christ why may not you as well blow vpon them as he did For seyng that our sauiour Christ confirmed his word there with a Sacrament or outwarde signe and you thinke you must therefore do it bicause he did it you are muche to blame to leaue out the outward signe or Sacrament of breath whereby the faithe of him that is ordeined might be the more assured of such giftes and graces as are requisite in his function I heape not vp here the iudgement of writers you knowe I thinke it might easily be done if I liked to follow that waye Io. Whitgifte Christ vsed these wordes this is my bodye in the celebration of his Supper but there is no speciall commaundement that the Minister should ▪ vse the same and yet must he vse them b cause Christ vsed them euen so when Christ did ordeine his Apostles Ministers of the Gospell Io. 20. he sayd vnto them ▪ receiue the holy G ost c. which words bicause they containe the principall duetie of a Minister and do signifie that God doth poure his spirit vpon those whom he calleth to that function are most aptly also vsed of the Bishop who is Gods instrument in that businesse in the ordeyning of Ministers S. Paule speaking to Timothie 1. Tim. 4. saythe Neglecte 1. Tim. 4. not the gifte that is in thee whiche was giuen vnto thee by prophecie with the laying on of the handes of the eldership In whiche wordes the Apostle signifieth that God dothe bestowe his giftes and spirite vpon suche as be called to the ministerie of the worde whereof imposition of handes is a token or rather a confirmation and therfore sayth M. Caluine that it was not a vayne ceremonie bicause God dyd fulfill with hys Cal. 1. Tim. 4. spirite that consecration which men dyd signifie by imposition of handes And surely as that is no vayne ceremonie though it be done by men so these be no vayne words though they be spoken by men Neither dothe the Bishop speake them as thoughe he had authoritie to giue the holy Ghost but he speaketh them as the words of Christ vsed in the like action who as I sayde before dothe moste certaynly giue his holy spirite to those whom he calleth to the ministerie And surely if any patterne eyther in calling or ordeyning of ministers is to be followed this of Christ is to be followed especially and it is not vnlike but that the Apostles when they layde on their hands vsed the same words bicause as I haue sayde laying on of handes is a signe or rather a confirmation of the same That which you speake of commaunding is a méere cauill you knowe in your conscience that there is nothing lesse ment To recite the wordes of Christ in the name of Christ in the selfe same maner that Christ dyd speake them is as lawful in this action as it is in the Supper for the bread is not the ministers body but the sacramente of Christ his body and yet he sayth Take and eate this is my body So in reciting Gods commandements we say Thou shalt haue no other Gods but me and yet we meane not that we are their Gods but we speake the words of God in his person and in the selfe same maner forme that he hath lefte them vnto vs. But it is nowe no maruayle thoughe suche as wyckedly forsake their calling doe also impiously deride and iest at the manner and forme thereof Christ when he sayde to the sea peace be quiet shewed a myracle to confirme his diuinitie but when he sayde Receyue the holy Ghost c. he dyd institute a ministerie which shoulde be vsed by man and therefore there is no similitude betwixt these two Christ when he breathed vpon them dyd an action proper vnto him selfe for he thereby signified that he had authoritie to giue vnto them his holy spirite and that the same spirite dyd not only procéede from the father but from him selfe also when he spake these wordes he made a perpetuall promise that all suche should receyue his spirite as from time to time were by him called to the office of the ministerie I thinke you woulde surely vse some authoritie of wryters héere as you doe in other places if you had any but I suppose you haue not one that misliketh this forme as it is vsed in this Churche of Englande I knowe they doe iustly condemne the foolishe imitation of the Papistes who followe Christ in breathing But that there is any great misliking of these words Receyue the holy Ghost except only when they speake of the papisticall abusing of them I can not perceyue Of Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision The Admonition The ninth Then euery pastor (x) Act. 0. 8. Eph. 4. 11. Titus 1. 5. 1. Pet. 5. 1. had his flocke Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 50. Sect. 2. To proue this you alleage the. 20. of the Acts the. 4. to the Ephe. the first to Titus the. 5. chapter of the. 1. of Peter which places declare that there were Pastors whiche had flockes but they proue not that euery Pastor had a flocke neuerthelesse howe so euer you proue it true it is that if he be a Pastor he must haue a certain flock for therein doth a Pastor differ from the rest of the degrees of ministers in Christes Churche mentioned in the fourth chapter to the Ephes But you
temper hys sermon or exhortation that it may profyte all and hurte none but suche as do not accordingly receyue it And therefore bothe these propositions are false th a man by preaching cannot profyte such as he knoweth not and that he cannot know them except he be perpetually resident with them Chap. 1. the sixte Diuision T. C. Page 48. Sect. 1. Moreouer as in the law the priests were ready in the temple to answer to al the doubts questions that any of the people should come to aske so the ministers in their seuerall parishes shoulde be ready to dissolue the difficulties that eyther one hathe with another or with himselfe touching the conscience for want whereof the consciences of many after doubtfull and daungerous wrastling with the deuill and wich dispaire are strangled And therevpon some hang or drowne themselues some other putting away all care or conscience of sinning and labouring to haue no sense nor feeling of their sinne close vp the wounde vnhealed which after eyther breaketh out more daungerously or else euery day more and more waxing senselesse and withoute feeling treasure vp vnto themselues the wrath of God against the day of iudgement For although the iudgement of God doth not for the time follow them so hard as them which through terroure of conscience vntaught and vncomforted kill themselues yet their estate is neuer the lesse daungerous therefore but rather more for asmuch as by a longer line of sinne drawne out they also pull vpon themselues a heauier conde nation Which things when they see oftentimes before their eyes that will consider it it is easy to iudge that it commeth to passe a great deale oftner than we can see Io. Whitgifte You do not referre me to any place where I might reade that the priests in the lawe were ready in the temple to answere all the doubts and questions that any of the people shoulde come to aske c. And I do not remember any suche place in the scripture excepte you meane that which is written in the. 17. of Deute verse 9. c. where there is no suche Deute 17. attendance mentioned but only the people are willed to bring their controuersies to the priests and the iudge If you meane the. 12. verse of that Chap. where it is said of the priest that he standeth before the Lord to minister there you haue also missed the quisshion For the meaning of that place is that whosoeuer presumptuously refuseth to harken vnto the Priest so long as the prieste is the true minister of God and pronounceth according to his word shall die c. The priest here had to do in ciuill and iudiciall matters togither with the iudge the priest was but in the chéefe place where iudgement was heard and not in euery particular congregation Wherfore if you would conclude any thing of this place it must be that the Priest must be ioyned with the Iudge and haue to do in ciuill and iudiciall matters and remaine in some chiefe place of the countrie where iudgements are to be heard You can by no meanes hereof conclude that euery particular congregation should haue a Pastor continually remayning with them There is not now any such general ignorance but that there may diuers be found able to answer all such doubts as you speake of sufficiently though the Pastor be absent The scriptures also are publikely red in euery mans house whiche are as Saint Paule saith 2. Ti. 3. profitable to teach to improue to correct to instruct in righteousenes 2. Tim. 3. that the man of God may be absolute being made perfect in all good works and as Chrysostome calleth them they be an apothecarie his shoppe where euery man may finde In. 3. Coll. remedy for his diseases Moreouer the sufficiencie of his curate may be suche that he shall be aswell able to answere all suche questions as if he himselfe were present Neyther are those cases you put vsuall God be thanked and they oftentimes happen where there is leaste cause to complaine of any absence of the Pastor Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 48. Sect. 1. When as therefore the only preaching of the word of God being continuall is a bond strong enough to hold the Pastor to his flocke then the enquirie of the maners behauioure of his flocke the priuate admonitions and consolations the dissoluing of doubts when any riseth as a three or foure fould cord ought much more to hold hym so that he which shall breake all these things willingly and wittingly cannot easily be thought to breake them as Sampson did his by the strength of God but rather by some other power not of God Io. Whitgifte I would not haue any man to thinke that I take vpon me to maintaine carelesse Care 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be not defended slouthful pastors I speake only of such as be vigilant occupie themselues profitably in the Church visite their seueral flockes teach them to the satisfying both of the parishes and of their owne consciences also such I am persuaded may do as much in al those points here by you mentioned to the commoditie of their flocke being somtimes absent as if they were continually present besides the good they may do to the whole Church generally wherof they are also members and Ministers But I muse with what face you can thus seke to deface true pastors that do good in Some 〈◊〉 delight to face good 〈◊〉 that doe 〈◊〉 good the ues the Church though not so much as you thinke they should do seing you your self and a number mo do no good at all in any place but only range vp downe liue at other mens tables disturbe the Church thinke that you haue done your duties when you haue defaced all other mens doings I am verily persuaded that he which preacheth at his cure but one sermon in a yeare offendeth God lesse than you doe that haue forsaken your calling Chap. 1. the eyght Diuision T. C. Pag. 48. Sect. 1. Besides that S. Paul commaundeth that the pastor should be a paterne or example in al goodnesse 1. Tim. 4. holinesse of life vnto his flocke our sauiour Christ saith that when the she harde hath 〈◊〉 Iohn 10. forth his sheepe he goeth before them but if the Pastor be not amongst his flocke ▪ and haue not his conuersation there they can not follow him If they haue not the example before their eyes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not make the like vnto it Therfore this commaundement also bindeth them to residencie amongst their flockes S. Peter willeth the Pastors of the Churches that they shoulde feede the flockes What flockes Not euery one but those which are committed to their faith or trust or which dependeth vpon them And S. Paule speaking to y e ministers or Bishops of Ephesus willeth them Act. 20. that they should take heede vnto the flockes ouer the which the holy Ghost had made them ouerseers where he
Coemeteria or Churcheyardes if you meane those places that lye next round about the Churches as they came in with the Monke they mighte well haue gone out with him for any profite eyther to the Churche or common wealth by them But if you meane as the Greke worde whiche is there vsed signifieth a fitte place where the bodies of men sleepe and are buri attending the tyme of their rising vp agayne in the iaste and generall daye of iudgement then these Churcheyardes were in the tyme of the Lawe and in the primitiue Churche in all times when there was any outwarde pollicie of the Churche and especially when the Churche had quietnesse and peace that it mighte without daunger * bury their dead in some certayne conuenient Luke 7. place therevnto appoynted whiche was for feare of the infection commonly as it maye Euseb. 7. be gathered in the fielde out of the Towne vnto the whiche vse and custome if it mighte be done lib. 13. cōuemently it were wel that we were restored both because it is more safe for the preseruation of the Townes and Cities in their health as also for that through the superstition which hath beene of beeing buried rather in the Churche than in the Churcheyarde in the Chauncell rather than in the Churche nearer the highe altar than further of the remnauntes whereof are in a greate number of mens heartes yet whiche mighte muche be helped by the bringing in of that custome agayne of burying the dead in some honest place out of the towne thereto appoynted Io. Whitgifte I haue tolde you my Author and if you will not credite one witnesse you shall That Denis deuided parishes haue moe Denis himselfe dothe testifie it in an Epistle that he writte to Seuerus a Bishop Damasus sayth the same so dothe Marianus Scotus Platina and others Polidor Uirgill dothe something playnely open the matter in these wordes Pol. Virg. lib. 4. c. 9. de inuent Circiter annum Domini 267. Dionisius tam presbyteris vrbis Romae quà m aliarum gentium templa coemiteria parochias quas dicunt diuisit Praeterea Episcopis dioecaeses distribuit mandauitque vt vnusquisque suis finibus ac limitibus contentus esset Parochias vt hoc demonstremus nostri appellant singula templa Dioecesis eorum territorium certis terminis distinctum c. About the. 267. yere of our Lorde Dionisius deuyded Churches Churcheyardes and Parishes as they call them aswell to the Priestes of Rome as of other nations furthermore he distributed Diocesse vnto Bishops and commaunded that euery one should content himselfe with his owne boūdes and limites our men call Parishes that we may make this playne the seuerall Churches of a Diocesse and their territorie limitted within certayne boūdes c. Wherefore take héede least you cast dust in your owne eyes blind your selfe for this of Denis is not denied of any that I can reade Where hath the Lord deuided nationall Churches into parishes and congregations Why doe you not note the place or where hath S. Paule the thing thoughe not the worde or name or what stories saye that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was taken to be the same that we call nowe a parishe Héere is muche spoken but nothing proued This Denis was Bishop of Rome about the yere of our Lorde 263. whiche peraduenture How parishes are by man distinguished you haue not considered But to put all this matter out of doubte and to open that the ignoraunce whereof maketh you so hotte in this matter there was diuerse congregations and Churches in the Apostles time but yet was there not any limitation of place or certayne compasse of grounde certaynely appoynted for that was lefte to the discretion of man to enlarge or to contracte as it should be thought from time to time moste conuenient and who can once imagine or suppose that Christ or his Apostles did appoynt the limittes of Diocesse or Parishes or who knoweth it not that it is in the power of suche as haue authoritie to enlarge or diminishe Dioces or Parishes as they shall sée it expedient I knowe nothing to the contrarie but that the Parishe whose bondes and limits be but one myle compasse maye be made ten myle compasse and contrarywise It is well sayde of one that distributio gregis nunc extenditur nunc coarctatur pro hominis arbitrio The distribution of a flocke is sometime enlarged and sometyme made lesse according to the iudgement of man And this matter néedeth not to séeme so straunge vnto you for if you had bin so diligent a reader of the booke of Actes and Monumentes as you boast your selfe to be then mighte you haue read there that the Councell of Nice dyd appoynt to certayne Bishops the limittes and boundes of their Prouinces and Dioces But what should I labour in a matter so manyfest If by Coemiteria or Churcheyardes those places be ment that be about the churches where we vse to burie the dead as it is moste lyke they be then heare I no reason at all Why you shoulde in suche maner speake of them excepte you will plucke downe whatsoeuer hathe beforetyme béene appoynted be it neuer so auncient and the vse thereof conuenient and necessarie There is no doubt but by Coemiteria are ment places of buriall whiche because they haue béene as you confesse at all tymes certayne especially in the peace of the Churche it is méete that they shoulde so still remayne And for as muche as the places nowe vsed if they were appoynted by Denis as it is moste lyke are fitly appoynted and moste conueniently in moste places you haue alleadged no cause as yet why they shoulde be remoued but the selfe same cause that maye be in lyke manner vsed to remoue the Churche and whatsoeuer else hathe beene deuised by any man be it otherwyse neuer so necessarie conuenient or comely But I will not followe you in these digressions where you onely spende paper with wordes voyde of proofe If you quote Eusebius 7. Lib. 13. to proue that the place of buriall was in the fieldes there can be no suche thing gathered of his wordes and if you quote him to proue that the worde signifieth a place of buriall you goe about to proue that which no man denieth Of Ministers that can not preache and of giuing licences to preache Tract 6. Some may be Ministers that can not preache Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition The tenth Then the Ministers were (*) Philip. 2. 20. 25. Preachers nowe bare readers Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 52. Sect. 2. 3. Colos. 1. 7. Luke 9. 2 Your places of Scripture alleadged to proue that Ministers Unapt profes of the Admonition were then Preachers proue not that all were then Preachers The place in the seconde to the Philippians 20. verse is this For I haue no man lyke mynded vvho vvyll faythfully care for your matters And in the. 25. verse But I suppose it
is one of the principall causes of edifying contrariwise such as refuse the same apparel not only dissent disagree among themselues but fal into diuers strange opiniōs without stay slander the gospel with their contentiousnesse and teare in peeces the Church of Christ with their factions and schismes and be the cause why both the worde of God and Christian magistrates be almost generally contemned T. C. Pag. 58. Sect. 2. The thirde reason is that they which consent in wearing the surplices consent also in all other poyntes of doctrine and they that doe not weare it do not consent not so muche as amongst themselues I this consent in the points of religion be in the surplice cope c. tell vs I beseech you whether in the matter or in the forme or in what h dde and vnknowne qualitie standeth it If it be n that the ministers vse all one apparell then it is maruel that this being so strong a bonde to holde them together in godlie vnitie that it was neuer commaunded of Christe nor practised of Prophets or Apostles ether of no other re ormed Churches I had thought wholly that those things whiche the Lorde oppoynteth to mayntayne and keepe vnitie with and specially the holie Sacramentes of Baptisme and of the Lordes Supper had bene strong ynough to haue fyrste of all knitte vs vnto the Lorde and therefore also to his doctrine and then one of vs to an other and that the dissentings in suche a Ceremonie as a Surplice c. neyther should nor could in those that 〈◊〉 vnto God breake the vnitie of the Spirite which is bounde with the bonde of truthe And although there bee whyche lyke not this apparell that thinke otherwyse than eyther theyr brethren or than in deede they oughte to doe yet a man may fynde greater dissent amongest those whiche are vnyted in Surplice and Cope c. than there is amongest those whyche weare them not eyther wyth them selues or with them that weare them For howe many there are that weare Surplices whiche woulde bee 〈◊〉 to saye a Masse than to heare a Sermon lette all the worlde iudge And of those that 〈◊〉 weare this apparell and be otherwyse well mynded to the Gospell are there not whiche wyl weare the Surplice and not the cappe other that will weare bothe cap end surplice but not the tippet and yet a thirde sorte that will weare surplice cappe and tippet but not the cop It hathe bene the manner alwayes of wyse and learned men to esteeme of things by the causes an not by the euent and that especially in matters of religion for if they should be esteemed of the euent who is there which wil not condemne the Israelites battel agaynst Aye and 〈◊〉 agaynst the Bemamites which notwithstandyng the cause which was Gods wil and Gods maundement iustifyeth And therfore in a word I answer that if there be such con ent mongst those which like well of this apparel and such arres amongst those y t like it not as M. 〈◊〉 woulde make the worlde beleeue neyther is the w aryng of a surplice c. cause of that consent in thē nor the not wearing cause of that disagrement in the other But as our knowledge and loue is vnperfect here in this world so is our agreement and consent of iudgement vnperfect And yet all these hard speaches of yours or vncharitable suspicions of papisme Anabaptisme catharisme dona sme c. wherby you do as much as lyeth in you to cut vs cleane of from you shall not be able so to estrange vs or separate vs from you but that we will by gods grace holde whatsoeuer you holde well and kepe that vnitie of spirit which is the bond of truth euen with you Master Doctor whom we s ppose as appeareth by this your booke to haue set yourselfe further frō vs than numbers of those whiche althoughe they be content to receiue the apparell and beare with things yet would haue bene loth to haue set downe that against the sinceritie of the Gospell and hind rance of reformation which you haue bone Io. Whitgifte Such lawes orders as kepe godly peace and vnitie in the Church do 〈◊〉 but the lawes for apparell kepe godly peace vnitie in the Church Ergo they edifie The M nor I proue by experience of such as are subiect to these lawes by the euent which is a probable kinde of reasoning though it be not necessarie neither may the examples of a few improue that which is generally true almost in all These persons that you talke of which be thus contrarily mynded if there be any such as I thinke you do but faine yet do they kepe the peace of the Church they condemne not their brethren neither yet the apparel that they them selues peraduenture for some speciall cause weare not Some I know there are which agrée with vs in wearing the apparell and ioyne with you in contention subscribe to all our orders articles and yet in certaine places and companies mainteine your opinions but of such we make no accompt neither I thinke do you further than they may serue your turne Againe I confesse that there be some which haue not receiued the apparell and yet greatly mislike many of your opinions and kéepe with vs the vnitie of the Churche whom I for my part haue alwayes reuerenced do reuerence not onely for their singular vertue learning but for their modestie also Wherfore when I speake eyther of the one or of the other I speake not of all but of the most part Certaine it is that those things which the Lord appointeth to kepe vnitie with and especially the sacraments ought to be the especiall bond of the same that nothing should separate those that are coupled and ioyned therein but we sée it fall out o the wise such is the crooked rebellious nature of mā therfore hath God also appointed Magistrats and giuen them a thoritie to make orders lawes to mainteine the peace and vnitie of the Churche that those which of conscience and good disposition will not by suche lawes and orders may be constrained at the least to kéepe the externall peace and vnitie of the Churche Doe you take this to be a good reason The Sacrament are bond to kepe and mainteyne the v itie of the spirite therefore there 〈◊〉 no lawes or Magistrates T. imagineth suche a perfection as is not to be ounde to prouide for the externall peace and quietnesse of the Churche your imagination throughoute your whole booke is of suche a perfection in men as thoughe they néeded no lawes or Magistrates to gouerne them but that euery man mighte be as it were a lawe to himselfe whiche wherevnto it tendeth may easily be coniectured I haue not set downe any thing I trust to the hinderance of the Gospell or of reformation ▪ but I séeke to reforme such contentious spirites as be enimyes vnto both And I
they signified but now they are tokens of the Ministers of the Gospell which are good and therfore they are good the signes of good The reason is M. Bucers I am not ashamed of my author and it is stronger than you can ouerthrowe For let me heare howe you will answere this argument whatsoeuer signifieth and noteth that which is good is a signe of good but this apparell signifieth that which is good Ergo it is a signe of good The Maior is euident The Minor is thus proued The ministerie of the Gospell is good but this apparel is a signe of the ministerie of the Gospell Ergo it is a signe of good All the Logike you haue can not answere this argument except you will denie the apparell to be the signe of the ministerie of the Gospel which were to denie y t which is subiect to the senses the other examples that I haue vsed doth make this matter more manifest I referre it to the Reader to iudge how fitly you haue answered them Whether they be good signes or no is not nowe the question but whether they be signes of good for that the Admonition denieth If you can conclude that they be euill bicause they be signes of euill why may not I likewise say that they be good bicause they be signes of good We commonly call that a good signe which is a signe of good neyther can you place this reason in any fallacian it is a signe of good Ergo it is a good signe for it is called a good signe in this respect onely that it signifieth that which is good Those names in respect of those whom they signified were good in the respect of the Externall things may be both good and euill in diuers respects The diuers 〈◊〉 vsed b T. C. in answering Idols to whome they properly belonged they were euill for such externall things in diuers respects may be both good euill The golden calfe was an Idoll made to be worshipped no signe of the true God and therfore vndiscretly here brought in Wheresoeuer I haue before alleaged these things you speake of yet be they answered neither here nor there this the Reader may note if he list that whersoeuer you cannot answere there either you frumpe girde after your maner or you cauill and confute your owne imagination or closely passe the matter ouer in silence or poste it ouer to some other place where you speake nothing of it Chap. 7. the tenth Diuision Admonition They worke discorde they hinder the preaching of the Gospell Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 241. Sect. 2. This is an argumente à non causa ad causam it is not the apparell that Non causa procausa worketh discorde or hindereth the preaching of the Gospell no no more than it is the worde of God that engendreth heresies or wyne that maketh drunke or the sworde that murthereth or the law that worketh iniurie c. But it is the sinister affection the rebellious nature the contentious minde of man For who began this contention or when was it begon Truely if the lawe for apparell were vtterly abrogated yet would not your contentiō cease nay it would burst out muche more vehemently and in farre greater matters as this your Admonition declareth And therefore I thinke rather that the lawe for apparell will stay further contentions especially if it be duely executed T. C. Pag. 60. Sect. 1. You say the cause of disorder is not in the apparell but in the mindes of men You meane I am sure those that refuse the apparell but if you make them authors of discorde bycause they consente not wyth you in wearing do you not see it is (*) It is as sone sayd but not so truely bycause the one ret yneth order and the other breaketh it assone sayd that you are the causers of discord bycause you doe not consent with those which weare not For as there should be vnitie in that point if all did weare that apparell so shoulde there be if all did weare none of it It is a very vnequall comparison that you compare the vse of this apparell with the vse of wyne and of a sworde which are profitable and necessarie but it is more intollerable that you match it with the worde of God I coulde throwe it as farre downe as you li te it vp but I will not doe so This onely I wyll say if there were no harme in it and that it were also profitable yet forasmuch as it is not commaūded of God expressely but a thing as you say indifferent and notwithstanding is cause of so manie incommodities and so abused as I haue before declared it ought to be sufficient reason to abolishe them seing that the brasen serpent which was instituted of the Lorde himselfe and conteyned a profitable remembrance of the wonderfull benefite of God towardes his people was beaten to pouder when as it beganne to be an occasion of falling vnto the children of Israell and seeing that S. Paule after the loue feastes which were kepte at the administration of the Lordes 1. Cor. 11. Supper and were meanes to nourish loue amongst the Churches were abused and drawne to another vse than they were first ordeyned did vtterly take them away and commaunde that they should not be vsed any more Io. Whitgifte I may answere you almost in the selfe same wordes and maner that M. Zuinglius answered one Balthazar an Anabaptist who charged him then as you charge vs now Zuinglius ad Balt. in this place consider saith he who be the authors and causes of dissention whether we that attempt nothing of our owne priuate authoritie but haue submitted our selues to the iudgement of the Church and of those that be gouernours of the same or rather you who so arrogantly without any such authoritie doe what you list speake what you list allow and condemne at your pleasure ▪ But for further tryall hereof I referre you to such notes as I haue collected out of Zuinglius and others and placed in the second edition of my Pag. 19. c. Answere to the Admonition Our consenting is according to our duetie required of vs by the worde of God towards such as be in authoritie your dissenting is contrarie to your dutie of obedience in such cases inioyned vnto you by the word of God If all refused the apparell wyth you yet would you not be quiet for you make this the least cause of your schisme I do not compare this apparell with the word of God but by these examples I shew the vnaptnesse of such arguments as be à non causa ad causam You haue throwne it downe as low as you can and if you could cast it lower your will is good therfore to say you coulde do it and wil not is as great an offence as was the midwiues lying to Pharao I haue shewed in my answere that as the case now standeth it is rather commodious
as for abuses in it as it is nowe vsed you haue hitherto shewed none if it were abused yet doth it not follow that therefore it is to be remoued except the abuse coulde not be taken away without the abolishing of the thing as it was in the brasen serpent which serpent though it was by God commaūded to be set vp yet was it as M. Martyr saith but for that time wherin power was giuen vnto it to heale and cure those that were bitten of the serpents Num. 21. and therfore being but temporal and thus abused Num. 〈◊〉 was lawfully takē away neither would the Idolatrie committed vnto it otherwise haue ceased But do you thinke that any man doth worship the apparell as the Israelites did worship the serpent S. Paul in that Chapter of the. 1. Cor. reproueth 1. Cor. 11. them for certaine abuses about the Lords Supper whereof this was one of the chiefe that they made it an occasion of feasting and banquetting which maner of feasting in the Church was not onely borowed of the gentils as M. Bullinger sayth but occasion also of much contention and very vnséemely for that time and place And as Master Caluine sayth vpon that place The Corinthians are reproued bycause they had mingled Caluine prophane banquettes and that also with the contumely of the poore with that holy and spirituall feast and therefore expedient it was that they shoulde betaken awaye and if you can shewe the like vncurable abuse in the apparell I will crye away with it as fast as you do Chap. 7. the. 11. Diuision Admonition They keepe the memorie of Egypt still amongst vs and put vs in minde of that abhomination wherevnto they in times past haue serued they bring the ministerie into contempt they offende the weake they encorage the obstinate Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 241. Sect. 3. 4. 5. You saye they keepe the memorie of Egypt still amongst vs. c. No truely no more than dothe the Churche the Pulpit the Bells c. but they teache vs the true vse of Christian libertie and that all things be cleane to those that be cleane Finally that godly men may well vse that which wicked haue abused howsoeuer vngodly They bring the ministerie into contempte Onely with you and suche as you by your continuall crying out agaynst them haue deluded contemners of good orders lawes and statutes are to be seuerely punished for their contempt Good lawes orders and statutes are not to be altered or dissolued bicause by suche as forget their dueties they are contemned They offende the weake and encourage the obstinate Those that be offended with them thinke themselues moste strong and glorie therin with condemning of others The obstinate be encouraged throughe the schismes contentions that you trouble the Church and slaunder the Gospell with which one day you will vnderstande if in tyme you doe not repent T. C. Page 60. Sect. 2. The rest of that whiche followeth in this matter is nothing else but eyther that whiche hath bin oftenti es repeated or else reprochefull words or vniust accusations of contempt of Magistrates withou any proofe at all and therefore are suche as eyther are answered or which I will not voutchs e to answere especially seeing I meane not to (*) T ue for 〈◊〉 aue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for one giue reproche and reuiling for reuiling and seeing that I haue before protested of our humble submission and louing feare or reuerence whiche we beare to the Prince and those whiche are appoynted Magistrates vnderneathe hir Io. Whitgifte This is a shorte answere to say you will not voutchsafe to answere What reprochfull wordes or vniust accusations are héere vttered by me excepte this offende you that I saye contemners of good orders lawes and statutes are to be seuerely punished for their contempt Good lawes orders and statutes are not to be altered and dissolued bicause by suche as forget their dueties they be contemned If this cast you into that choler I can not mende it you must beare with me when I speake the truthe Whether of vs two haue more offended in reprochings and reuilings bicause we are both partiall in our owne causes let vs referre it to the indifferent Readers How farre you are from performing that in déede to the Magistrates that you protest in worde is in another place declared Chap. 7. the twelfth Diuision T. C. Pag. 60. Sect. 3. And therefore I will conclude that forsomuche as the ceremonies of Antichristianitie are not nor can not be the fittest to set foorthe the Gospell and for that they are occasions of fall to some of hinderaunce to other some of griefe and alienation of mindes vnto others the contrarie of all which ought to be considered in establishing of things indifferent in the Churche therefore neyther is this apparell fittest for the minister of the Gospell and if it were yet considering the incommodities that come of the vse of it it should be remoued Io. Whitgifte This conclusion consisteth wholly vpon false principles whereof though some of them haue bin before spoken yet not one of them proued for tryall wherof I referr the Reader to that which we haue bothe written of this matter The Admonition The twelfth Then as God gaue vtterance (b) Iohn 6. 38. Ioh. 12. 49. 1. Co. 11. 23 they preached the worde onely Now they reade Homelyes Articles Iniunctions c. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 62. Sect. 3. Heere you quote in the margente the sixte of Iohn verse 38. where Christ sayth that he came dovvne from heauen not to doe his ovvne vvill but the vvill of his father that sente him Likewyse the twelfth of Iohn verse 49. where also he saythe that he hathe not spoken of him selfe but the father that sent him gaue him commaundement vvhat he shoulde say and what he shoulde speake And the first to the Corinthians 11. Chapter verse 23. where S. Paule sayth that he receyued of the Lorde that vvhiche he deliuered vnto them No man denieth but that the worde of God onely ought to be preached and that as God giueth vtterance But doe you meane that we may not studie for our sermons or that we may speake nothing but the very Scriptures may be amplified texte of Scripture without amplifying or expounding the same when I knowe your meaning heerein you shall vnderstande more of my minde In the meane tyme this I am sure of that the Homilies appoynted to be read in the Churche are learned godly agreable to Gods worde and more effectuall to edification than a number of your Sermons whiche consiste in wordes onely and entreate of little else but of cappe surplesse c. Archbishop Lorde Bishop c. the ende whereof is not edification but contention Homilies read in the Churche haue alwayes beene commendable Homilies red in the Church are commendable and vsuall euen from the beginning looke Augustine Chrysostome and others and why maye not Articles and Iniunctions
the vnitie of the Church is conserued not by hauing one Bishop ouer all but by the agreement of the Bishops one with another For so he writeth that the church is knit and coupled togither as it were with the giue of the Bishops consenting one with an other And as for the compounding of controuersies it is manyfest that it was not done by one Byshop in a prouince but those byshops whych were neere the place where the schisme or heresie sprang For speaking of the appeasing of controuersies schismes and shewing how dyuers Bishops Li. 1. epi. 4 were drawen into the heresy of Nouatus he sayth that the vertue and strength of the Christians was not so decayed or anguished but that there was a portion of Priests which did not giue place vnto those rumes and shipwrackes of fayth And in another place he sayth therfore most deare brother the plentyfull body or company Li. 3. epi. 1 of the pr ests are as it were with the g ue of mutuall concorde and bande of vnitie ioyned togither that if any of our company be author of an heresy and goe about to destroy and rent the flocke of Christ the rest should helpe and as profitable and mercyfull shepheards gather togither the sheepe of the Lorde Whereby it is many fest that the appeasing and composing of controuersies and heresies was not then thought to be most fitte to be in one bishops hande but in as many as coulde conuemently assemble togither according to the daunger of the heresie which sprang or depe roote which it had taken or was like to take Io. Whitgifte The Bishops agrée not one whit the worse when they haue a superior by whom they may be called togither and put in minde of their office and duetie Neyther doth Cyprian deny this when he affirmeth the other For thoughe the chiefe cause of vnitie is the consente and agreement of the Bishops one with another yet to haue one that shall haue the chiefe care thereof must néedes be a great helpe thervnto euen as it is in other societies For if the Bishops were deuided among themselues at variance and had no superiour who should compounde the controuersies Our Archbishops doe not take vpon them neyther can they to decide any controuersie Howe farre our Archbishops deale in controuersies in doctrine and religion of their owne authoritie but therein doe they deale eyther according to the lawes of the Churche prouided for that purpose or else expecte a newe Parliament or Synode Neyther doth any Bishop in his Dioces otherwise meddle in suche matters than by the common consent of the Churche is appoynted vnto him and yet it was neuer otherwise taught by any but that a Bishop in hys owne Diocesse or an Archebishop in his Prouince mighte vse persuasions to ende controuersies and execute the lawes prouided for the same other kinde of deciding controuersies by any priuate authoritie I knowe none in this Church of Englande Wherfore al these allegations be but in vayne for surely not in Cyprians time was the determining of suche controuersies committed to the Pastor and Seigniorie of euery Parishe neyther doth Cyprian make mention of any suche matter if he did yet for gouernment the diuersitie of the time and state of the Church is to be considered Tract 2. 3. as I haue before noted Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 77. Sect. 4. And that there was in his time no such authoritie giuen as that any one might remoue the causes or controuersies which rose as now we see there is when the Bishop of the Di es taketh the matters in controuersie which rise in any Church within his Dioces from the minister Elders to whom the decision perteyneth and as when the archebishop taketh it away from the Bishop it may appeare in the same thirde Epistle of the first booke where he sayth after this sort It is ordeyned and it is equall and right that euery mans cause should be there heard where the fault was committed And a little after he sayth It is meete to handle the matter there where they maye haue both accusers and witnesses of the faulte whiche although it be spoken of them whiche fled out of Affrike vnto Rome yet the reason is generall and dothe aswell serue agaynst these ecclesiasticall persons whych wyll take vnto them the deciding of those controuersies that were done a hundred myle of them Io. Whitgifte Cyprian as I sayd speaketh not one worde of your Seigniorie in that place by you alleages he speaketh of the seueral Prouince ▪ 〈◊〉 Dioces of euery bishop would haue euery matter ended in that Prouince 〈◊〉 Diocesse where it is cōmitted therfore he speaketh there of suche as fled out of Affrica into Italie to haue their matters heard so that this place is soluted by your owne selfe It is méete that the matter should be there handled where there may be had bothe accusers witnesses And that was one of the reasons that the Councel of Affrica sed agaynst the Bishop of Rome clayming interest in hearing appeales from thence But there is no Prouince in Englande so large but that both the accusers and witnesses may be brought into any parte of it from any other parte This reason of yours maye serue better agaynst Westminster hall which is but one place to serue the whole Realme for deciding of controuersies and yet I thinke it very necessarie ▪ You may not wrest that to your purpose or proof of Seigniorie or authoritie therof whiche Cyprian speaketh of diuers Prouinces yea diuers Countreys and Nations This is no good reason Cyprian mislyked the translating of causes from Affrica to Rome Ergo there maye be no causes remoued from Northampton to London Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 77. Sect. 5. And whereas M. Doctor in bothe places of Cyprian seemeth to stande much vpon the words one Bishop and priest the reason thereof dothe appeare in another place of Cyprian moste manyfestly L 3. epi. 13 and that it maketh no more to proue that there ought to be one archebishop ouer a whole prouince than to say that there ought to be but one husbande proueth that therefore there should be but one husbande in euery countrey or prouince whiche shoulde see that all the rest of the husbands do their duties to their wiues For this was the case a Nouatian heretike beeing condemned cast out of the Churches of Affrica by the consent of the Bishops not able by embassage sent to them to obteyne to be receyued to their cōmunion fellowship agayne oeth afterwards to Rome and beeing likewise there repelled in time getteth himselfe by certayne which fauoured his heresie to be chosen Bishop there at Rome Cornelius beeing the Bishop or pastor of those which were there godly minded whervpon it commeth that Cyprian vrgeth one Bishop one priest in the church bicause at Rome there was two wherof one was a wolfe
to a place byshops or at the leas to consent therevnto to suppresse schismes and such like was affixed to the place and byshop of the same as to Rome Cō tantinople Alexandria c. this do all the olde canons declare as the. 6. and. 7. Canon of the councell of Nice the. 9. of the councell of Antioch and the. 5. of the generall councell of Constantinople the. 12 of the second councell of Carthage the. 21. Concilij Mileuitani the. 11. of the generall councell of Chalcedon to be short all these testimonies and examples alleadged of me before out of Cyprian c. and the continuall practise of the Church And therefore such new cautions here by you set downe be only méete for such a strange and mishapen platforme and kynd of gouernment as is by you and your faction deuised Chap. 3. the. 47. Diuision T. C. Pag. 85. Sect. 2. 3. 4. Of this order and pollicie of the Church if we will see a liuely image a d perfect patterne let vs set before ou eyes the most auncient and gospellike Church that euer was or shal be In the first of the Actes the Church being gathered togither for the election of an Apostle into the place of Iudas the traytor when as the interest of election belonged vnto all and to the Apostles especially aboue the rest out of the whole company Peter riseth vp telleth the cause of their comming togyther with what cautions and qualities they ought to choose another conceyueth the prayer whereby the help of God in that election and his direction is begged and no doubt ex cuted the resi ue of the things which perteyned vnto the whole action In the. of the Actes all the Apostles are accused of dronke nesse Peter answer d for them all wypeth away the infamie they were charged with But you will saye where are the voyces of the rest which did choose Peter vnto this (*) What is this but a meere con 〈◊〉 or ather an imagine answer o yo r ow e ▪ First you must kn w that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstance and then surely you do Peter great iniurie that aske whether he were chosen vnto it for is it to be thought that Peter would thrust in himselfe to this office or dignitie without the consent and allowance of his fellowes and preuent his fellowes of this preheininence vndoutedly if it had not bin done arrogantly yet it must needes hau a great shew of arrogancie if he had done this without the consent of his fellowes And here you shall heare what the scholiast saith which gathereth the iudgement of greeke diumes (a) This is not poken o cho ing eter to be speaker but of lecting Matthias which pe eyned not to Peter alone 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 speaking of Peter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Behold how he doth all with their common consent And if any man hervpon will say that Peter exercised domination ouer the rest or gat any ar hapostleship beside that the whole storie of the Actes of the Apostles and his whole course of life doth refute that the same scholiast which I made mention of in the same place sayth he did nothing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 imp riously nothing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with dominion or power further I will admonish him to take heede least if he s riue so farre for the Archbishop he slide or euer he be aware into the entes of the Papists which vse these places to proue that Peter had authoritie and rule ouer the rest of the Apostles Io. Whitgifte This is a rodd to beate your selfe with for it is euident euen by these wordes of yours that your deuise is most farthest from the Apostolicall forme for Peter in all Peter chee e in Apostolicall assemblies such assemblies is the chiefe speaketh the first and moderateth the rest in whiche respect most of the olde ecclesiastical writers count him the chiefe of the Apos les neyther do the la e writers diss nt from them in that poynt and yet is there no daunger of sliding into the Papists tents who by this woulde proue the Popes supremacie whose arguments you haue vsed and I haue confuted before To preuent subtily that question which neyther yo do nor can answer that is where it is in scripture mentioned that at euery action or at any time Peter was chosen to speake before the rest or to gouerne the action ou say that first I must know that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstance and then that I do Peter great iniurie that aske whether he were chosen to it c. To the first I answer that you ought to know how wicked and vngodly a thing it is to ground the alteration of any lawfull kinde of g uernment so long continued and in the best times of the Church practised vpon your owne fonde deuise and coniectures without any ground of scripture yea to make that Peter not cho sen in euery action to be chee e. your foundation which you cannot fynde in the whole scripture but the cleane contrary For shew me one péece of a text that doth but insinuate Peter to haue bin at any time in any action chosen to direct the action I can shew you the contrary especially in the second of the Actes where Peter sodainly answered with a notable apologie in the presence of the Apostles the accusation of dronkennesse layde agaynst him and them neyther can it be that he should expect the voyces of the rest to choose him to be the chéefe for that time in that action Whosoeuer shall well consider the first of the Actes and the. 15. and other places where mention is made of Peters speaking as he shall perceiue that this was Peters peculiar office and always apperteyning vnto him from the ascensiō of Christ to his dying day so shall he also easily vnderstand that he was not at any time chosen to that office by voyces much lesse at euery particular méeting or singular action And dare you presume vpon vaine coniectures without warrant of scripture to bild the foundation of your kinde of gouernment whyche you before sayde is a matter of faythe and saluation is not thys to open a way to vnwritten veri ies and phantasticall interpretatious if your wordes be of suche weighte wyth the Reader that bycause you speake them therefore hée will be aeue them per me ▪ licebit but thys I will assure hym of that he shall beléeue that that is neyther grounded vppon Scripture nor anye learned or aunciente authoritie To the seconde that is that I doe Peter great iniurie c. I saye that I doe him no iniurie at all when I affirme that of hym that the scripture dothe and presume not of mine owne brayne for the mainteyning of an euill cause to imagin that of him whych I haue my selfe deuised besides the word of God as you do most manifestly Peter did not thrust himselfe into any
foresayde Aërius he proueth his errour aud the errour of those that heare him by this that the Apostle writte to Priests and Deacons and dyd not write to Byshops And to the Bishop he sayth neglect not the gifte that is in thee whiche thou hast receyued by the handes of the Presbyterie And agayne in another place he writeth to Bishops and Deacons wherefore sayth he a Bishop and a Priest is all one and he knoweth not whiche is ignorante of the sequele of the truthe and hathe not read profounde stories that when the preaching was but newely begonne the holy Apostle writte according to the state of things as they were then for where there were Bishops appoynted he writte to Bishops and Deacons for the Apostle coulde not by and by at the first appoynte all things for there was neede of Priests and Deacons bicause by those two ecclesiasticall matters maye be complete And where there was not any founde worthy a Bishopricke there the place remayned without a Bishop but where there was neede and worthy men to be Bishops there were Bishops appoynted And when there was not so many that there coulde be founde amongst them meete to be Priests they were content with one Bishop in an appoynted place but it is vnpossible for a Bishop to be without a Deacon and the holy Apostle had a care that Deacons shoulde be where the Bishop was for the ministerie So dyd the Churche receyue the fulnesse of dispensation suche was then the state and condition of the places For euery thing had not the perfection from the beginning but in processe of time those things whiche were necessarie to perfection were added c. The Apostle teacheth who is a Bishop and who is a Priest when he sayth to Timothie that was a Bishop chide not a Priest but exhorte him as a father what should a Bishop haue to doe not to chide a Priest if he had not authoritie aboue a Priest As he also sayth agayne agaynst a Priest admitte no accusation sodenly without two or three witnesses and he sayde not to any Priest admit no accusation agaynst a Bishop neyther did he write to any Priest that he shoulde not rebuke a Bishop Thus mayest thou sée good Reader that it is not for nought that T. C. so stormes agaynst Epiphanius and so vnreuerently vseth him But I wyll giue him as muche cause to deale in like maner with Augustine who August ad Quod-vult in this matter fully ioyneth with Epiphanius and in that booke of his de haeresibus ad quod-vult-deum quoted by T. C. in his margent attributeth this also as heresie to the sayde Acrius adding that the cause of this and other of his heresies was bicause he himselfe was not made Bishop Chap. 3. the. 59. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 4. That this worde presbyter in this place of the Apostle signifieth a minister of the worde bothe Ambrose Caluine and other learned writers declare T. C. Page 87. Sect. 4. And whereas M. Doctor citeth Ambrose Caluine and other godly wryters to proue that the minister is vnderstanded by the worde Elder or Presbyter he keepeth his olde wonte by bringing stickes into the wood and prouing alwayes that which no man denieth and yet with the minister of the worde he also vnderstandeth the Elder of the Churche whiche ruleth and dothe not labour in the worde But therein is not the matter for I doe graunt that by Presbyter the minister of the word is vnderstanded yet nothing proued of that which M. Doctor would so fayne proue Io. Whitgifte I adde this interpretation that the Reader may vnderstande Timothie to haue authoritie ouer Bishops and Ministers of the worde least you by cauilling shoulde shifte off this place with your signification of Seniors whiche were not ministers of the worde as you say All this whyle haue I looked for the performance of your promise to proue that That Timothie was Bishop Timothie and Titus were no Bishops But bicause I perceyue that you are content to forget it I will héere perfourme mine least I fall into the same faulte with you repeating only that which I haue before added to my answere in the 2. edition least I shoulde put the Reader bothe to coste and paynes in searching for it there First therefore that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus the whole course of the 1 The course of the Epistle two Epistles written vnto him declareth wherein is conteyned the office and duety of a Bishop and diuers precepts peculiarly perteyning to that function as it is manyfest neyther were those Epistles written to Timothie for the instruction of other onely but for the instruction of him selfe also as the whole course of bothe the Epistles doe declare and all learned expositours confesse Secondly the subscription of the seconde Epistle is this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 The subscrip tion The seconde Epistle was written from Rome to Timothie who was ordeyned the first Bishop of the Churche of Ephesus when Paule appeared before the Emperour Nero the seconde time Whiche althoughe it be lefte out in some Gréeke Testamentes yet is it in the moste the best and the auncientest yea almoste in all neyther is this a sufficient answere to saye that the subscription of some one or two Epistles séeme to be vntrue therefore this is vntrue For the subscription as it is no doubt of great antiquitie so is it consonant to al olde auncient authoritie Thirdly the vniuersal consent of histories conclude him to be Bishop at Ephesus 3 Consent of hystories Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 4. saythe that Timothie was the first Bishop of Ephesus Dorotheus who lyued in Dioclesians time wryteth that Paule made him Bishop of Ephesus Nicephorus lib. 2. cap. 34. sayth that Paule made him Bishop of Ephesus before he writ his first Epistle vnto him Hierome in catalog scripto Ecclesi sayth that he was made Bishop of Ephesus by Paule Isidorus de Patribus noui Testamenti sayth also that he was Bishop of Ephesus Antoninus parte 1. titulo 6. cap. 1. affyrmeth the same oute of Polycrates So dothe Supplementum chroni So dothe also Volaterane lib. 20. where he calleth him Praesulem Ephesinum And all the Histories that I haue read whiche make any mention of him Historia Magdel centu 1. lib. 2. cap. 10. in vita Ioan. Euang. hathe these words Constat Paulum Ephesinae ecclesiae Timotheum dedisse pastorem It is certayne that Paule appoynted Timothie Pastor of the Churche of Ephesus Surely it is the generall consente of all hystories that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus Fourthly the fathers affirme the same 4 Content of fathers Dionisius Areopagita so called of some men who liued in the Apostles time wryteth his booke De diuinis nominibus to Timothie Bishop of Ephesus Epiphanius lib. 3. tom 1. affirmeth that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus Ambrose sayth the same in his Preface to the first Epistle written to Timothie Chrysostome in
kinde of gouernment onely he mislyketh the name Hierarchia what can bée plainlyer spoken both of the name and office of the Archbishop As for your fonde deuise that it shoulde be his office onely to gather voyces c. it is singular to your selfe you haue not one learned wryter that I can read with you The Bishops that now are in this Church neyther haue nor chalenge to haue more iurisdiction than the olde Bishops had nay they haue not so much as it is euidently to be séene in the olde Canons and therefore M. Caluine allowing of them doth allow of ours also His place to the Philippians maketh agaynst you for he alloweth one to be superiour amongst the ministers and to rule the rest and sayth that as the nature and disposition of men nowe is there coulde be no order except it were so which doth vtterly ouerthrow the equalitie that you and the Admonition dreame of He saith that he speaketh de singulis corporibus which he cannot vnderstand of particular parishes for euery particular parishe hath not many ministers so that of necessitie he must haue manie senerall Churches to make the bodie he speaketh of and therefore a Diocesse or a prouince I thinke M. Caluine did thinke Geneua and the townes therevnto adioyning and belonging to be but one bodie so doe I thinke London and the Diocesse therevnto perteyning to be but one particular bodie And likewyse the Prouince of Canterburie distinguished into diuerse partes and members to be but one bodie in like maner Neyther do I thinke that master Caluine euer shewed his mislyking of these degrées in this Churche as they be nowe vsed for as I sayde before the great abuse of them vnder the Pope made him more to mislyke of them than hée woulde haue done but in these wordes that I haue repeated of his he testifyeth as T. C. letteth that slip that maketh against him much as I desire that is the antiquitie and the cause and vse of those offices and that which you omit and skip ouer that herein the olde Bishops did frame no kinde of gouernment in the Church diuerse from that which the Lord hath prescribed in his word which neyther you nor your adherents can abide to heare of Chap. 3. the. 71. Diuision T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. 3. But here I cannot let passe M. Doctours ill dealing whiche recyting so muche of master Caluine (*) Vniust accusation cutteth him off in the waste and leaueth quite oute that whiche made agaynst him that is whiche M. Caluine sayeth in these woordes Althoughe sayeth he in this disputation it may not be passed ouer that this office of Archbyshop or Patriarke was most rarely and seldome vsed which dealing seemeth to proceede of a verie euill conscience Io. Whitgifte I knowe not what perfection is in your booke more than in mine but I am sure that I haue followed mine owne booke faythfully and truely neither haue I omitted one worde that maketh eyther with me or agaynst me and therefore you haue vniustly charged mée The booke that I follow was printed Anno. 1553. wherein there are no such wordes that this office 〈◊〉 Archbishop or Patriarke was most rarely and seldome vsed Neither is there cause why M. Caluine shoulde so say for he could not but knowe that these offices haue had continuance in the Churche at the least since before the Councell of Nice for there are these wordes mos antiquus perduret c. and that they were continually affixed to the Bishoprikes of certaine Cities as Rome Antioch c. In déede in the last edition of his institutions he hath these wordes quanquam in hac disputatione praeteriri non potest quod rarissimi erat vsus which wordes he referreth to The vse of the Patriarch rare in what sense ▪ the office of a Patriarch whome he sayth the Nicene Councell did place in dignitie and order aboue Archbishops for the preseruation of discipline neither doth he say that the office of a Patriarke was moueable or chosen at euery action for then shoulde he affirme that which is repugnant to all Hystoryes Councelles ▪ and auncient wryters that speake of Patriarkes but his meaning is that there was but seldome tymes occasion offered for Patriarkes to exercise the authoritie they had ouer Archbishoppes which is the occasion that the most authours doe confounde them and thinke them to be all one other meaning than this his wordes neyther can nor doe admit Chap. 3. the. 72. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 74. Sect. vlt. Hemingius in his Enchirid. sheweth that these degrees in the Hemingi ▪ Church be necessarie that discipline cannot be kept without them And he addeth that their Church kepeth this forme Necmouetur saith he Anabaptistarum ac Libertinorū effreni libidine qui ecclesiam Christi barbaricum quendam bominū caetum sine ordine fingunt cū habeat nostra ecclesia non solū exemplū Apostolicae purioris ecclesiae verum etiam mandatum spiritus sancti omnia ordinaté decenter ad aedificationem faciendi Neyther is our Church moued vvith the licencious libertie of Anabaptists and Libertines vvhich feine the Church of Christ to be a barbarous confused societie vvithout order seeing that our Church hath not onely the example of the Apostolicall and most pure Church but also the commaundement of the spirite of God to do all things orderly and decently to edifie T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. 4. Then followeth Hemingius who you say approueth these degrees of Archbishop Metropolitane Bishop Archdeacon for so you must needes meane when you say he approueth these Cap. 10. 3. class lib. Enchirid. vvhere also among the popish orders he reckeneth the 〈◊〉 degrees or else you say nothing for therevpon is the question Nowe howe vntruly you speake let it be iudged by that which followeth First he sayth that our Sauiour Christ in S. Luke distinguisheth and putteth a difference betweene the office of a Prince and the office of the Minister of the Church leauing dominion to the Princes and taking it altogither from the Ministers ▪ here you see not onely howe he is agaynst you in your exposition in the place of S. Luke which woulde haue it nothing else but a prohibition of ambition but also howe at a worde he cutteth the throte of your Archbishop and Bishoppe as it is nowe vsed And afterwarde speaking of the Churches of Denmarke he sayeth they haue Christ for their heade and for the outwarde discipline they haue Magistrates to punishe with the sworde and for to exercise the ecclesiasticall discipline they haue Bishoppes Pastours Doctours which may keepe men vnder with the worde without vsing any corporall punishment Here is no mention of Archbyshoppes Primates Metropolitanes And althoughe he sheweth that they keepe the distinction betweene Bishoppes and Ministers agaynst which there hath beene before spoken yet he sayeth that the authoritie which they haue is as the authoritie of a father not as the power
late vnto the booke put foorth in the 〈◊〉 ▪ and vnder the credite of the Bishop of Sarisburie wherein I will say nothing of those 〈◊〉 sharpe w rds which are gyuen partly in the beginning when he calleth the propounders of the 〈◊〉 why h 〈◊〉 archebishops and archedeacons nouices partly in the ende when he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 children and the doctrine of (*) A shameless vn kedlye the Gospell wantonnesse c. If he had ly 〈◊〉 learning and grauittie and otherwyse good desertes of the Churche in defending the 〈◊〉 thereof agaynst the Papistes we could haue easily borne it at his hands nowe he is dead and 〈◊〉 vp 〈◊〉 peace 〈◊〉 were agaynst all humanitie to digge or to breake vp hys graue onely I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 t 〈◊〉 the consideration of the Reader vpon those things whiche are alleaged to iudge whether it or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 which is confirmed by so graue testimonies of the aun worke of God Io. Whitgifte If you doubt whether the Bishop of Sarisbury were the author of that half shéete of paper or no you may sée his owne hande writing If you call the words which he vseth there 〈◊〉 and sharpe what shall we thinke of yours we had néede terme them Serpentine or viperous or if there can be any other name that better expresseth such immodest contemptuous and scoffing spéeches Hypocrita quid vides fest 〈…〉 in oculo fratris tui c But what are these biting and sharpe wordes that he vseth forsoothe that he calleth the propounders of the proposition whych concerneth Archbishops and Archedeacons Why. T. C. scometh so muche at the words of the Bishop nouices and in the ende he calleth them children and their doctrine wantonnesse Oh these be byting and sharpe words but wouldest thou knowe good Reader whye T. C. taketh these wordes so gréeuously euen bicause they touche him selfe For the man is of that humilitie and patience that if there be neuer so little signification giuen of any vnskilfulnesse or lacke of learning in him selfe he roareth like a lyon swelleth like the sea for none of that faction can in any case abide to haue their learning touched The malicious nature of that faction and they will not sticke in commending them selues to deface all other yea euen that notable Iuell whose bothe labour and learning they doe enuie and among them selues depraue as I haue heard with mine owne eares and a number more besides For further proofe wherof I doe but referre you to the reporte that by this faction was spred of him after his laste Sermon at Paules crosse bicause he did confirme the doctrine before preached by a famous and learned man touching obedience to the Prince and lawes It was then straunge to me to heare so notable a Bishop so learned a man so stoute a champion of true religion so paynefull a Prelate so vngratefully and spitefully vsed by a sorte of wauering wicked wretched tongues But it is their manner except you please their humor in all things be you neuer so well learned neuer so paynfull so zelous so vertuons all is nothing with them but they will depraue you rayle on you backbite you inuentlyes of you and spred false rumors as though you were the vilest persons in the whole earth And consider whether T. C. be not euen nowe in that vayne for howe maliciously The Bishop maliciously staundered by T. C. doth he slaunder that so Reuerend Bishop saying that he calleth y e doctrine of the Gospell wantonnesse when he speaketh of their childishe and phantasticall deuises excepte all were Gospell that they speake or that commeth from them Pardon me thoughe I speake something earnestly it is in the behalfe of a Iuell that is contemned and defaced by contentious and vngratefull persons If it had pleased God to haue suffered him to liue vnto this day in answering this Replie he should no doubt haue proued his byting and sharpe wordes as they be called to be moste true But séeing that he is at rest and not héere to answere for him selfe though in respecte of him I am farre vnméete to intermedle in his doings yet in respecte of the cause and aduersarie I will be bolde to iustifie his answers Chap. 4. the. 2. Diuision ¶ The Iudgement of that Reuerende father Iohn late Bishop of Sarum auouched by his ovvne hande Archiepiscoporum Archidiaconorum nomina simul cum Nouitiorum assertio muneribus officijs suis sunt abolenda The first Reason God so loued the Churche that he lefte a perfect paterne orderly c. Eph 4. but there Prima ratio is named neyther Pope nor Archbishop nor Archdeacon The ansvvere of the Bishop of Sarisburie Hovve knovve you that the fourth chapter ad Ephe. is a perfecte patterne Eius solutio ▪ of all ecclesiasticall gouernment vve haue novve neyther Apostles nor The. 4. Eph ▪ no perfect plat forme of all ecclesiasticall gouernment Euangelistes nor Prophetes and yet are they the cheefe in that patterne neyther haue vve there eyther Bishop or Presbyter or Diaconus or Catechista or Lector and yet are these necessarie partes in ecclesiasticall gouernment Therefore that patterne is not perfect to holde for euer neyther vvere there then any publike Churches or Pulpits or Scholes or Vniuersities c. S. Paule nameth neyther Pope nor Archbishop I graunt and the Church is not gouerned by names but by offices Euery Bishop then vvas called Papa and Anacletus that vvas nexte after Peter if there be any weight in his vvords nameth Archbishops T. C. Pag. 91. Sect. 1. Unto the place of the. 4. of the Ephesians before alleaged he answereth cleane contrarie to that which M. Doctor sayth that we haue now neyther Apostles nor Euangelists nor prophets wherupon he would conclude that that place is no perfect patterne of the ministerie in the Church In deede it is true we haue not neyther is it needefull that we should It was therfore sufficient that there were once and for a tyme so that the wante of those nowe is no cause why the ministeryes there recyted be not sufficient for the accomplishment and full finishing of the churche nor cause why any other ministeries should be added besydes those which are there recyted Io. Whitgifte Not one worde contrarie to any thing that I haue spoken for I tolde you before Tract 4. cap. diuis 1. in what respect it maye be sayde these offices to remayne and in what respect they be ceased there is nowe no planting of Churches nor going throughe the whole In what respect Apostles c. be ceased worlde there is no wryting of newe Gospels no prophecying of thinges to come but there is gouerning of Churches visiting of them reforming of Pastors and dyrecting of them whiche is a portion of the Apostolicall function there is preaching of the Gospell expounding interpreting the Scriptures which be incident to the Euangelist Prophet Agaynst this no learned man
may most conueniently come to that learning And we haue also examples of them commended vnto vs in the old Iud. 51. Testament As in the booke of the Iudges when Debora commendeth the Uniuersitie men those whiche handled the penne of the wryter that they came out to helpe in the battayle agaynst the enemies of God And in the first booke of Samuell and in the seconde booke of the Kings 1. Sam. 19. when Naioth and Bethel Iericho and a place beyonde Iordan are specified places which were 2. Rg. 2. scholes or Uniuersities where the scholers of the Prophets were brought vp in the feare of God and good learning the continuance of whiche scholes and vniuersities amongst the people of God Act. 6. may be easily gathered of that which S. Luke writeth in the Actes where it may appeare that in Ierusalem there were certayne Colleges appoynted for seuerall countrey men so that there was one College to receyue the Iewes and Proselites which came out of Cilicia another for those that came out of Alexandria c. to studie at Ierusalem And if any man be able to shewe suche euidence for Archbishops and Archedeacons as these are for vniuersities and scholes I will not denie but it is as lawfull to haue them as these Io. Whitgifte Yet sayth he truely for in those tymes in Christian congregations there were neyther publike Churches or Pulpits or scholes or Vniuersities c. and yet these doe apperteyne to the gouernmente of the Churche In déede S. Paule speaketh onely there of suche ecclesiasticall functions as doe teache and preache the worde and not of suche as doe onely gouerne and therefore it can not be a perfecte platfourme for euer as I haue before declared and yet dyuers of these thinges mentioned by the Bishop of Sarisburie perteyne bothe to the office of teaching and gouerning That whiche you saye of Scholes and Uniuersities I minde not to examine bicause I knowe they be necessary for the Churche howe aptely soeuer you proue them But this is the matter they be necessarie in the Churche bothe for the office The Byshop is not answered of gouerning and teaching and yet they be not expressed in the fourthe to the Ephesians therefore in that fourth to the Ephesians there is no perfecte paterne of all ecclesiasticall gouernment for that is the thing that the Bishop of Sarisburie affirmeth and therevnto you answere not one worde Not one of these places that you alleage proueth that in this texte to the Ephesians eyther Scholes or Vniuersities be mentioned thoughe it be certayne that they perteyne bothe to teaching and gouerning and therefore all this spéeche of yours is Ignorantia Elenchi to no purpose but onely to dasle the eyes of the Reader least he should perceyue how you offende in ignorantia Elenchi in not answering ad idem Chap. 4. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 3. Furthermore he sayth that the Churche is not gouerned by names but by offices so is it in deede And if the office of an Archbishop or Archdeacon can be shewed we wyll not stryue for the name but for so much as all the needefull offices of the Church togither with theyr names are mentioned in the the Scripture it is truely sayde that bothe the offices and names of Archebishop and Archedeacons beeing not onely not conteyned in them but also condemned ought to be banished out of the Churche Io. Whitgifte I haue before shewed that the office of visiting Churches of ouerséeing many Pastors The office of archbyshops archde cons contemed in scripture and Bishops of suppressing schismes c. was in the Apostles and is in the scriptures But in these things doth the office of an Archbyshop consist and in part of them the office of an Archdeacon therefore the offices of Archbyshops and Archdeacons be conteined in the scriptures and were in the Apostles time For although as I then sayde that this part of the Apostolicall office which did consist in planting and founding Churches through the whole world is ceased yet the manner of gouernment by placing Byshops in euery Citie by moderating and gouerning them by visiting the Churches by cutting of schismes and contentions by ordering Ministers remaineth still and shall continue and is in this Church in the Archbyshops and Byshops as most meete men to execute the same Wherefore séeing the offices be in the scriptures there is no cause why the names should be mislyked much lesse banished and cast out of the churche Chap. 4. the. 8. Diuision T C. Pag. 92. Sect. 4. Last of all he sayth that Anacletus if there be any wayght in his wordes nameth an Archbyshop I haue before shewed what waight there is in his wordes I refuse not that he be weyghed by the Byshops owne weyghtes whiche he giueth vs in the handling of the article of the supremacie and in the. 223. and. 224. pages by the which weyghtes appeareth that this Anacletus is not onely lighte but a playne counterfeit Io. Whitgifte Yet you sée that learned men are content to vse such authoritie as occasion serueth Supra ap 〈◊〉 ▪ diuis 13. as I haue also before shewed other learned men to doe the lyke And if it be to greatly to be reproued first smite at your selfe as most guiltie in this poynt Chap. 4. the. 9. Diuision The second Reason Secunda ratio ▪ The Synagogue of the Iewes was a figure of the Church of Christe And God to the perfection of that Church omitted nothing The Ansvvere of the Byshop I see not vvhat you vvoulde conclude perhaps you vvill saye they had Eius solutio not the names of Pope or Archbyshop So had they not this name Episcopus in all Moses lavve yet vvere not all Priests of like aunciencie in gouernment They had other names that vvere equiualent vvith Archbyshops as Principes Synagogae Principes sanctuarij Principes familiarum Leuiticarum Principes familiarum sacerdotalium Principes Sacerdotum Principes domus Dei Pontifex Summus Pontifex Summus sacerdos c. Therefore this negatiue reason is but vveake Agayne vvhereas it is sayde that to the perfection of the Synagogue there vvanted nothing it may be ansvvered that to the perfection thereof there vvanted many things as it is knovvne and confessed And as the Synagogue had not the names of Pope and Archbyshop so had it not the name of Apostle o Euangelist c. T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 5. The second reason which saith that the churche of God vnder the lawe had all all things needefu ▪ appointed by y e commaundement of God the Bishop saith he knoweth not what could be concluded of it I haue shewed before that there is nothing lesse ment than that the Church vnder the Gospell should haue al those things that y e Church had or should haue nothing which that had not But this ther vpon is concluded that the Lord which was so carefull for that
〈◊〉 and of other Byshoppes sayeth that they were assembled oute at Aquileia by the commaundemente of the Emperoure The same dothe Hierome testifye concernyng a Councell holden at Rome In Epita Pauli Pope Iulio Epist. 9. ad Theodos. desyreth the Emperoure that by his authoritie there myghte be a Councell in Italye Zozomen libr. 6. cap. 7. sheweth howe certayne Catholyke Bishoppes intreated the Emperoure that they myght haue leaue to gather together for the redressing of certaine erroures But hat shall I neede to labour in a matter moste manifest No man can be ignorant that readeth Ecclesiasticall stories but that the Emperoures authoritie was r quired in summoning Councels and Synodes not only generall but prouinciall also Secondly it is vntrue that the Metropolitane in this Churche dothe not call Synodes or propoundeth not the matters in them c. For he dothe bothe althoughe he calleth no Prouinciall Synode withoute the commaund ment of the Prince no more than other Metropolitanes haue oone in the beste tyme of the Churche vnder christ an Princes Laste of all thoughe all thys were true that is éere vntruely affirmed yet were the office of an Archebishoppe necessarie for it dothe not onely consiste in calling Synodes but in sundrye thinges besyde as I haue shewed before and this councell of Antioche manyfestly declareth And surely yf you would proue any thyng hereof directely it s ould bée thys that eyth r the Archebishoppe dothe not exercyse that iurisdiction whyche he oughte to doe or else can not doe that whiche perteyneth to his office and so shoulde you speake for the amendement of the Archbishops iurisdiction Agayne you saye an other cause appeareth there whyche was to see that the Bishops kepte themselues within theyr owne diocesse c. but fyrst thys may be doone without an Archbishoppe c. I tell you there is no suche thyng in that nynthe Canon I say further that it maye beste an mos e orderly bée doone by an Archebis oppe Thirdely I answere as before that it is but one parte of his office Fourthely I saye vnto you that this is a symple Argumente the Archebishoppe dothe not kéepe suche olde Canons as bée not in vse in thys Churche therefore there is no neede of his office Laste of all you oughte to knowe that th se whom y u call wandering ministers be fai hefull Preachers a number of them And suche as laboure diligentely in preachyng the woorde and haue not a little profyted the flocke of Chryste so that youre conclusion is not woor h a strawe Chap. 5. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 1. Agayne the cause why the Metropolitane differed from the reste and why the callyng of the Synode was gyuen to him as it appeareth in the same Councell was for that the Chap. 9. greatest concour e was to that place and moste assemblie of menne wherevnto also may be added for that there was the best commoditie of lodgyng and of vittayling and for that as it appeareth in other Councells it was the place and feare of the Empire But with vs neyther the greatest conc urse nor assemblie of men nor the greatest commoditie of lodgyng and vittayi g neyther yet the seate of the kingdome is in the Metropolitane citie therefore with vs there is no suche cause of a Metropolitane or Archebishop Io. Whitgifte This is not alleadged as a cause why there shoulde be a Metropolitane or why he differed from y e rest or why the calling of the Synode was giuen vnto hym but rather why he was placed in the chiefe citie so that these wordes touche not the Metropolitane or his office but the aptnesse of the place where he shoulde continue And yet if credite be to be giuen yther to interpreters or to the glosse in Gratian caus 9. quae 3. per singulas the wordes be not as you interprete them for thus they be set downe in the booke of Councels Tom. 1. Pr pter quod ad Metropolim omnes vndique qui negoti videntur habere concurrant For the which let all that haue any businesse haue recourse from all places into the Metropolitane citie An other ranslation is thus Propter quod ad Metropolitanam ciuitatem ab his qui causas habent con urratur And this last interpretation the authors of the Centuries do vse Cent. 4. Of whiche wordes there can be no suche thing gathered as you doe imagine but farre otherwise And the meaning of the Councell is that suche as haue causes to be heard may resort to the Metropolitane citie where the Metropolitane is And you must vnderstand that it was in the power of the Emperour and other Princes to appoint the seat of the Metropolitan where it pleased them as it appereth in the. 12. cap. of the Councel of Chalcedon and in the. 17. Hom. of Chrysostome Ad populum Antiochenum Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 2. In the Councel of Carthage holden in Cyprians tyme it appeareth that no Bishoppe had authoritie ouer an other to compell an other or to condemne an other but euery Bishop was left at his owne libertie to answere vnto God and to make his accounte vnto Christe and if anye thing were doone against any Bishoppe it was done by the consent of all the bishoppes in the prouince or as many as coulde conuemently assemble Therefore Cyprian whiche was the Metropolitane bishop had then no authoritie ouer the rest and yet then there being no christian magistrate T C con esseth Cyprian to be a Metropolitane whych would punishe the disorders whiche were committed of the christian bishops there was greatest neede that there shoulde haue bene some one which myght haue had the correction of the reste If therefore when there was most nede of this absolute authoritie there neither was nor might be any suche it foloweth that nowe we haue a Christian magistrate which may and ought to punyshe the disorders of the Ecclesiasticall persons and may and ought to call them to account for their faultes that there shoulde be no suche nede of an Archbishop Io. Whitgifte You here fall into the same faulte that a little before you ascribed to me for you come backe from the Councell of Antioche whiche was Anno. 360. to the Councell of Carthage being Anno. 260. I omitte to tell you that that Councell concluded an heresie for the whiche only it was assembled And therefore though it be in the booke of the Councells yet is it not reckened among the Councels Only I demaund the woordes of that Councell that doe signifie one Bishoppe not to haue had authoritie ouer an other I tolde you before out of Cyprian himselfe and out of Gregorie Nazianzene that he had ample and large iurisdiction The wordes of Cyprian in that Councell whiche séeme to touche the matter you talke of I haue expounded and answered before they make not for your purpose It is no reason to proue that a Bishop muste not be subiecte to
anye bycause he is lefte at his owne libertie to answere to God and to make his accompte vnto Christe For by the same reason he myghte be exempled from the authoritie of the Ciuill Magistrate and from all Lawes and orders touching Churche matters and so myghte euery priuate man in lyke manner But you muste remember that a Bishoppe is so lefte to his owne libertie to answere vnto God and make accompte vnto Chryste that hée muste also acknowledge his duetie towardes man and be subiecte to orders and lawes What do you saye for the fréedome of a Bishop from obedience vnto the Archebishop but it may be sayde lykewyse of his fréedome from subiection to his Prince in lyke matters and of euery Anabaptist for his deliuerance from subiection to all superiours ▪ Wherfore you wring Cyprians wordes to an euill sense You haue bin oft tolde that no Archbyshop hath such power ouer either Byshop or inferioure minister that of his owne authoritie he can do any thing againste them The lawes of the realme will not suffer it no the Canon law dothe by no meanes permit it And therefore you do but dreame of an authoritie that is not Cyprian being a Metropolitane had authoritie ouer the rest The ciuill Magistrate doth gouerne the ecclesiasticall state punisheth disorders among them calleth them to accompt for their faults by Archbyshops Byshops and other officers as he doth the same in the ciuil state by ciuill magistrates Your meaning is not I dare say to haue the Prince heare al matters hir selfe You wil giue hir leaue to appoint vnder officers as Moses Dauid Solomon Iehosaphat other good kings haue done If you will not allow the Magistrate so to do let vs vnderstand your reasons for surely I beléeue there is some such toy in your head Chap. 5. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 3. The moderation of their authoritie in the aunciēt times may appeare first by a canon which is falsely giuen to the Apostles being as it is like a canon of the councell of Antioch (*) This canon is 〈◊〉 both by adding and 〈◊〉 whe in although 34. Canon it ordeyneth one Primate in euery nation ouer the rest and will not suffer any great matter to be done without him as also will not suffer him to do any thing without the rest yet euery Byshop might do that which apperteyned vnto his owne parrish without him (a) This you add vnto the canon and he nothing to do with him in it But as it seemeth the meaning of the canon was that if there were any waightie matter to be cōcluded for all the Churches in the nation then the byshops of euery parish should not enterprise any thing without calling him to councell Now we see that the Archbyshop medleth with that which euery Byshop doth in his owne dioces and hath his visitations for that purpose and will take any matter out of their hands concludeth also of diuers matters neuer making the Byshops once priuie to his doings Io. Whitgifte If it be a false canon or falsely gyuen to the Apostles why do you vse it as a proofe I might ay vnto you as you said before vnto me haue you such penurie of proofes that you are constrayned to alleadge false canons if it be a canon of the Councell of Antioch shew what canon it is if it be within that Councel vndoutedly it is the. 9. canon before by you alledged and how muche that proues your cause the very ignorant reader may iudge But let vs heare this canon be it true or false and consider your collections of it The canon alledged against himselfe the wordes I haue recited before but I will set them downe againe that your pythy reasons reasoning altogyther against your selfe may appeare The Byshops of euery nation or countrie must know who amongst them is chiefe whome they ought to esteeme Can. Apost 34. as their head and do nothing without his councell besides those things only which belong vnto their owne parish and the places which are vnder it neyther ought he to do any thing without the aduise of them all for so shal there be concord and God shall be glorifyed by Christ Iesus in the holy Ghost c. Here first ther must be a Primate or chiefe Byshop that is Archbyshop of euery nation or countrie whome the rest of the byshops must acknowledge as it were for their head Secondly the Byshops must do nothing vnaccustomed without him Thirdly that the other Byshops may do those things only quae ad parochiam eius regiones ei subditas pertinent VVhich perteine vnto his parish and places subiect vnto it which last words you leaue out Last of all that thys Primate must do nothing without their consents what hath the Archbishop lost by this canon surely not one iote I think verily he doth not require so much ▪ Euery byshop may do as much in his owne dioces now the authoritie of the Prince and hir lawes reserued as he might do by that canon for the Archbyshop dothe not rule by will but by law not of himselfe but vnder the Prince to whome both he and all other byshops be subiect You hit nothing lesse than the meaning of the canon nay vndoutedly you imagine a sense contrary to the expresse words of the canon When the Archbyshop dothe visite it is not to make newe lawes or appointe newe orders excepte he be commaunded so to doe by greater authoritie but to see those orders and lawes kepte that all Bishoppes and other are bounde vnto and therefore he doth nothing in their diocesse contrary to that which they are bound to do neyther doth he cōclude any thing without them which by their consent and authoritie of the law and Prince is not giuen vnto him Chap. 5. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 95. Sect. 4. Higinus or as some thinke Pelagius I speake here as Platina reporteth not thinking that Platina cap Higin in Higinus time ther was any Metropolitane ordeyned that no Metropolitane should cōdemne any Byshop vnlesse the matter wer first both heard and discussed by the byshops of that prouince at what time and after a greate while a byshop was the (*) A grosse petitio of the principle or rather an vntruth same we call a minister Nowe the Archbyshop will without any further assistance or discussion by others suspend him and in the end also throw him out of his charge and if he haue the same authoritie ouer a byshop as a byshop ouer the minister as it is said he may do the like vnto him also Io. Whitgifte This is another forged witnesse such sound proofes the man hath that reprooues other men for the like and yet God knoweth his witnesse maketh nothing for him For who giueth authoritie to the Archbyshop to depriue eyther Byshop or inferiour minister without due proofe and examination of the cause touching consente of other if he deale with him according to
Riches no impediment to godly men Wherein our Bishops may be compared with the olde Bishops his duetie And in suche externall thinges the condition of the time and state of the Countrie is to be obserued Lette our Bishoppes be compared with them in truthe of doctrine in honestie of life in diligent walking in theyr vocation and in knowledge I speake of the moste in bothe ages and I thinke the difference will not be so greate but that they maye bothe knowe one another and very well agrée among themselues this onely excepted that the doctrine of the Gospell is now much more purely professed by our Bishops than it was at that tyme by them for both the Councels are in sundrie poynts very corrupt Chap. 5. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 2. In the same councell of Carthage it was decreed that no Bishop sitting in any place shoulde suffer any Minister or Elder to stande Nowe I will report me to themselues howe this is kept Can. 34. and to the poore ministers which haue to do with them and come before them Io. Whitgifte A poore quarell though this humilitie is to be required in all Bishops yet is it to be vsed with discretion for thus to deale with a proude and hawtie stomacke were but to giue nourishment to arrogancie and contempt It is méete that euerie man haue that honour and reuerence giuen vnto him which his place his office and his person requireth And as it is humilitie in him to remitte any part of it euen so it is an intollerable contempt and pryde for those that be inferiours so to looke for suche equalitie that in the meane tyme they refuse to doe that whiche ciuilitie good maners and duetie requyreth But let all men consider those notes and tokens of your hawtie stomackes and perswade themselues that it woulde not bée long before you woulde chalenge the same equalitie wyth other states and degrées in like maner Chap. 5. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 3. The Bishoppes in tymes past had no tayle nor trayne of men after them and thought it a slaunder to the Gospell to haue a number of men before and behinde them And therefore is (*) He was reproued for vsing himselfe like a capitaine being accompanied with a garde of souldiours Paulus Samosatenus noted as one that brought Religion into hatred and as one that feemed to Euseb. 7. cap. 30. take delight rather to be a Capitaine of two hundred than a Bishop bycaus he had gotten hym a sorte of seruing men to waight on him An other example not vnlyke and lykewyse reprehended is in Ruffine of one (a) Gregorie for George Gregorie a Bishop Nowe in our dayes it is thought a commendation to Ruf. lib. 1. cap. 23. the Bishop a credite to the Gospell if a Bishop haue 30. 40. 60. or mo wayting of him some before some behinde whereof three partes of them set a part the carying of a dishe vnto the table haue no honest or profitable calling to occupie themselues in two houres of the day to the filling of the Churche and common wealth also with all kinde of disorders and greater incommodities than I minde to speake of bicause it is not my purpose Io. Whitgifte In Eusebius it is sayde that Paulus Samosatenus vsed to walke publikely in the market places reading letters and boasting himselfe being accompanied with a number 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is accompanied with spearemen and halbardes The example of P. Samo ▪ vniustly applied to our Bishops of Souldiours some before him and some behinde him more like to a Capitaine than a Bishop If any of our Bishops walke in the stréetes to be séene or stande in the market places or other open and publike assemblies reading of letters accompanied with Souldiours and men of warre then may it be truly sayde of them that is here truly spoken of Paulus Samosatenus But if they being farre from such vanitie kéepe that countenance and retinue of men which their place the maner of their Countrey the honour of the Prince the state of the Church requireth then doe you vncharitably and vniustly applie this example agaynst them But vnlesse Paulus Samosatenus had béene riche and wealthie howe coulde this pompe of his haue béene mainteyned Wherefore this example is rather agaynst you than for you neyther doth it condemne wealth and ryches in Bishops but pride vainglorie and lightnesse For they accuse him of spoyling the Church and thereby enriching himselfe In the example of George whom you all Gregorie mentioned in uffine there is no worde spoken of any seruing men or souldiours onely he is there reproued because he got his Bishoprike by violence and thought that the office of iudgement in Rufsin lib. 1. cap. 23. ciuill causes was rather committed vnto him than the Priesthoode c. If any Bishop offende in the like with vs it is the fault of the man not of the office By this example also it may appeare that Bishoppes in those dayes had ryches and authoritie For this abusing of their wealth and authoritie doth argue that they had both which they might haue vsed rightly and well Chap. 5. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Pag. 97. Sect. 4. And here I will note another cause which brought in this pompe and princely estate of Byshops wherein although I will say more in a worde for the pompous estate than M. doctour hath done in all his treatise yet I will shewe that although it were more tollerable at the fyrst nowe it is by no meanes to be borne wyth * Theo. li. cap. 8. In the Ecclesiasticall Storie we reade that the inscriptions of diuers Epistles sent vnto Byshops were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * Li. eodem cap. 18. We reade also of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 house of salutations which Ambrose Bishop of Millayn had As for the tytle of moste honourable Lordes it was not so great nor so stately as the name of a Lorde or knight in oure Countrey for all those that knowe the maner of the speach of the Grecians doe well vnderstande howe they vsed to call euerie one of any meane countenance in the common wealth where he lyued 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Lorde so we see also the Euangelists turne Rabbi which signifyeth master by the Gre ke worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Lorde as lykewyse in Fraunce they call euery one that is a Gentleman or hath any honest place Monseur and so they wyll say also sauing your honour Nowe we know this worde Lorde in our Countrey is vsed otherwise to note some great personage eyther by reason of birth or by reason of some high dignitie in the common wealth which he occupieth and therefore those tytles although they were somewhat excessiue yet were they nothing so swelling and stately as ours are Io. Whitgifte The wise man sayth Let not thine owne mouth prayse thee but you for lacke of Pro. 27.
speake to mayntayne any excessiue or outrageous pompe but I speake of the egrees in the Ecclesiasticall state and of the manners and conditions of the persons as they be now according to the lawes and customes allowed in this Church of England Chap. 5. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. 3. And thus will I make an end leauing to the consideration and indifferent waying of the indifferent reader how true it is that I haue before propounded that our Archbishops Metropolitanes Archdeacons Bishops haue besides the names almoste nothing common 〈◊〉 those which haue bene in lder tymes before the sunne of the Gospell beganne to be maruelously darkened by the stinking mistes which the Diuell sent forth out of the bottomlesse pit to blynde the eyes of men that they should not see the shame and nakednesse of that purpled whoore which in the person of the Cleargie long before she gatte into hir seate prepared hir selfe by payntyng hi writhen face with the colours of these gorgeous titles and with the shewe of magnificall and worldly pompe For the Diuell knewe well inough that if he should haue set vp one onely Byshop in that seate of perdition and lefte all the reste in that simplicitie wherein God had appoynted them that his eldest sonne shoulde neyther haue had any way to get into that and when he had gotten it yet beyng as it were an owle amongst a sorte of byrdes should haue bene quickly discouered Io. Whitgifte And I also leaue it to the iudgement of the learned and indifferent Reader 〈◊〉 consider by that which I haue sayde before how vntrue all this is that you here affirme I speake of these degrées and offices as they be nowe vsed in this Churche of England if there be any difference it is bycause they haue not so large and ample iurisdiction and authoritie now as they had then Sathan worketh by sundrie meanes and spareth no fetches to bring to passe his The subtiltie of Sathan in counterfeyte godlinesse must not preiudice that which is true purpose Under the pretence of zeale he hath ingendred sectes and schismes vnder the title of puritie perfection he hath brought in heresie vnder the cloake of simplicitie he hath spread abrode many kindes of idolatrie and superstition vnder the shadow of humilitie he hath couered vntollerable ambition and marueylous arrogancie and what soeuer he bringeth to passe commonly he doth it vnder the colour of vertue and of that which is good and therefore I thinke that euen vnder the names and titles of lawfull degrees and calling he hath established vnlawfull authoritie but neyther is true zeale puritie perfection simplicitie humilitie nor yet lawfull degrées and callings therefore to be condemned Viti as Cyprian sayeth vicin sunt virtutibus Vices Discretion is very necessary be very nigh vnto vertues and the one laboureth to imitate the other but we must not therefore the lesse estéeme of vertue but rather learne prudently to discerne what is the difference betwixt the one and the other If we haue not learned this lesson what state in the common wealth what office what degrée of person nay what kinde of gouernment shall we allowe it is the greatest folly in the worlde to condemne the thing it selfe bycause of the abuse Chap. 5. the. 26. Diuision T. C Pag. 98. Sect. 3. But I haue done only this I admonish the reader that I do not allowe of all those thinges A proper ca eat which I before alleaged in the comparison betwene our Archbishops and the Archbishops of olde tyme or our Bishops theyrs Onely my intent is to shew that although there were corruptions yet in respect of ours they be much more tollerable and that it might appeare how small cause there is that they should alleage their examples to confirme the Archbishops and Bishops that nowe are Io. Whitgifte You do well to worke surely for now shall no man take any great aduauntage of your woordes how be it it had bene curteously done to haue let vs vnderstand what you allowe of this you haue wrytten and what you allowe not For in leauing the matter so rawly you will make vs suspect that you haue spoken you know not what Other things concerning the offices and authoritie of our Cleargie of inequalitie of degrees amongst ministers c. dispersed in other places of the Answere Chap. 6. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 75. Sect. vlt. Concerning the offices of an high commissioner iustice of peace how necessarily they be committed to some of the best wisest of the Cleargie what vice by them is bridled what inconuenience mette with what necessarie discipline vsed those know that be wise haue experience in publike affaires and gouernment There is no worde of God to proue why these offices may not concurre in one man But it is the commission that troubleth these men as for peace they are at defiance with it T. C. Pag. 98. Sect. 4. Concerning the offices of cōmissionership and how vnmeete it is that ministers of the worde should exercise them and how that the worde of God doth not permitte any such confusion of offices there shall be by Gods grace spoken of it afterwarde Io. Whitgifte And vntill that afterward be performed will I also differre that which is further to be sayd in this matter Chap. 6. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 76. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Pag. 77. Sect. 1. To be shorte they say that all these offices be plainely in Gods worde forbidden and they alleage Math. 23. Luc. 22. 1. Cor. 4. 1. Pet. 5. The places of Mathew Luke be answered before Christ beateth Tract 1. downe ambition and pryde and desire of bearing rule as he did before when he sayde be ye not called Rabbi and call no man father be not called Doctors he doth not condemne the names but the ambition of the minde In the. 1. Cor. 4. it is thus written Let a man thus thinke of vs as of the ministers of Christ c. The ministers of the worde in deede are not to be estemed as Gods but as the ministers of God Some among the Corinthians gloried in their ministers and attributed to much vnto them Here of came these factiōs I holde of Paule I of Apollo c. This teacheth your adherentes and disciples not to attribute to much to you such as you are or any other minister of Gods word It maketh nothing agaynst the names or authorities eyther of Archbishop Lordbishop or any other that you haue named who be the ministers of Christ and ought so to be esteemed The place of S. Peter cap. 5. is this Feede the flocke of God c. not as though you vvere Lordes ouer the flocke c. Peter here condemneth hautinesse contempt and tyrannie of pastors towards theyr flockes he doth not take away lawfull gouernment The Pastor hath rule and superioritie ouer his flocke but it must not be
that hath bene of him and the triall that hath bene of you his experience and yours But what shoulde I compare together things so vnlike That M. Bucer is directly against you in this assertion of yours it dothe not appeare onely in these words of his but in others also which he speaketh to the like effect as in the. 4. to the Eph. as I haue before declared And again vpon the same chapter Bucer n. 4. Ephe. he saith The third part of discipline is obedience which is first to be rendred of al to the Bishop and Minister then of euery clearke to those that be in degree aboue him to suche as may helpe him to the well executing of his ministerie Last of all of Bishops to synodes and to their Metropolitane Byshops and to all other to whom a more ample charge of the churches is committed And in the same commentaries after that he hath proued by sundry examples apt reasons y t this superioritie among Ecclesiasticall persons is conuenient and profitable and shewed that these degrées in the Church Bishop Archbyshop Metropolitane Primate Patria ke be not onely most auncient but also necessarie he concludeth on this sort Bicause it is necessarie that euery one of the cleargie should Idem haue their rulers and gouernours the authoritie power vigilancie and seueritie of Bishops Archdeacons and all other by what name soeuer they be called to whome any portion of keping and gouernin the cleargie is committed should or ought to be restored least there be any in thys order out of rule and without gouernment Howe thinke you nowe of M. Bucers iudgement Is it not directly against you be not his wordes plaine Chap. 6. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 124. Sect. 1. Your places quoted in the margent to proue that there ought to Scriptures wreasted to proue equalitie of Ministers be an equalitie of Ministers sounde nothing that waye 2. Cor. 10. vers 7. these be the wordes of the Apostle Looke ye on things after the appearance If any truste in him felfe that he is Christes let him consider this againe of himselfe that as he is Christes euen so are vve Christes Howe conclude you of these wordes your equalitie I promyse you it passeth my cunning to wring out of them any suche sense rather the contrary may be gathered oute of the wordes following whiche be these For though I shoulde boast somevvhat more of our authoritie vvhich the Lord. c. I should haue no shame M. Caluine expounding Caluine these wordes sayth on this sort It vvas for modestie that he ioyned him selfe to their number vvhome he did farre excell and yet he vvould not be so modest but that he vvould kepe his authoritie safe therefore he addeth that he spake lesse than of right he might haue done For he vvas not of the common sorte of ministers but one of the chiefe among the Apostles ▪ and Degrees of honour in the ministerie therefore he saith if I boaste more I nede not be ashamed for I haue good cause And a litle after Quamuis enim commune sit omnibus verbi ministris idemque officium sunt tamen bonoris gradus Although the selfsame office be common to all the Ministers of the vvorde yet there is degrees of honour Thus you see Caluine farre otherwise to gather of this place than you doe T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 1. And if M. Doctor delight thus to oppose mens authoritie to the authoritie of the holie ghoste to the reasons which are grounded out of the scripture M. Caluine doth openly mislike of the making of that name proper and peculiar to certaine which the holy ghost maketh common to mo And where as of M. Caluines wordes which sayth that there be degrees of honoure in the ministerie Here he defendeth not the admonition but shifteth it or by auilling M. Doctour would gather an Archbishop if he had vnderstanded that an Apostle is aboue an Euange ste an Euangeliste aboue a Pastor a Pastor aboue a Doctor and he aboue an Elder that ruleth onely he neded neuer haue gone to the popishe Hierarchie to seke his diuersiti s of degrees ▪ which he might haue founde in S. Paule And whereas vpon M. Caluines wordes which sayth that Paule was one of the chiefe amongest the Apostles he would seeme to conclude an Archbishop amongst the bishops he should haue remembred that S. Paules chiefetie amōgst the Apostles consisted not in hauing any authoriti or dominion ouer the rest but in labouring and suffering more than the rest and in giftes more excellent than the rest Io. Whitgifte I do not oppose mens authoritie to y e authoritie of y e holy ghost to the reasons which ar grounded out of the scripture but I oppose them to your authoritie and to your reasons who spurne against that order whiche the holie ghoste hath placed in the Churche most shamefully abuse the scripture to mainteine your errours an example wherof is this present text alledged by the Admonition which you passe ouer in silence condemning therby their leudenesse in abusing the same It is you and yours that abuse the name and authoritie of the holie ghoste it is you that wring and wreste the Scriptures vntollerably it is you that falsifie authorities of learned men corruptly alledge them It is you I say that depraue and discredit such writers as haue bene and be notable instrumentes in the churche of Christe and all this you do to maintaine your erroneous opinions and false doctrine wherewith you endeuour to subuerte this churche of Englande M. Caluines wordes be playne and they directly ouerthrowe your equalitie of ministers and shewe the fondnes of the Admonition in alledging that place of scripture to proue any such equalitie M. Caluines wordes be these Qu muis commune sit omnibu verbi ministris idemque officium sunt tamen bonoris gradus Although the selfe same office be common to all the ministers of the worde yet there are degrees of honor Which wordes disproue the equalitie of ministers by the admonition affirmed confirmed with this portion of scripture by M. Caluine here interpreted that is 2. Cor. 10. verse 7. If there were degrees of honour in the Apostles tyme among those which had idem 〈◊〉 the selfe same office as M. Caluine affirmeth why should there not be so now T. C. contra ie to himselfe likewise But will you sée howe vnlike you are vnto your selfe euen in these fewe lynes first you saye that M. Caluines meaning is that an Apostle is aboue an Euangeliste an Euangelist is aboue a Pastor c. and by and by after you confesse that there was chieftie euen among the Apostles but it consisted in labouring and suffering more than the rest and in giftes more excellent than the rest To omitte these contrarieties of yours into the whiche the plainenesse of Master Caluin s wordes hath driuen you this inequalitie that you
now to be alleaged but howe discretely by examination it will appeare The words of the Apostle to the Galat. 2. verse 6. be these And of them vvhich seemed to be great I vvas not taughte vvhat they vvere in tyme passed it maketh no matter to me God accepteth no mans person neuerthelesse they that are the chiefe dyd communicate nothing vvith me The Apostle in these wordes doth declare that he receyued not the Gospell which he preached of men no not of the Apostles but of Iesus Christ and that the Gospell preached by him oughte to be no lesse credited than the Gospell preached by them So that in those wordes he declareth that the truthe of the doctrine dothe not depende of any mans person He speaketh nothyng agaynst superioritie quoad ordinem concâ—rning order but dothe rather acknowledge it for he sayth they that are the chiefe c. But it is true that Master Caluine noteth on thys place Hic non est certamen ambitionis quia nequaquam de personis agitur The contention is not for ambition for it is not vnderstanded of the persons Nowe I praye you consider this argument Paule receyued the Gospell that he preached not of the Apostles but of Christ or the Gospell preached by Paule is equiualent with the Gospell preached by other of the Apostles therefore the names of Archbyshops Archdeacons c. are drawne out of the Popes shop together wyth their offices or this Paule sayth that they that were the chiefe did coÌ„municate nothing with him Ergo the names and offices of Archbyshops be taken out of the Popes shop T. C. Pag 100. Sect. 4. And in the. 207. page vnto the middest of the. 214. page this matter is agayne handled where firste M. Doctor woulde drawe the place of Galatians the seconde (*) This is an vntruth for it is only proued that the place is not against the Archbishop c to proue an Archbyshop and that by a (a) Here you rashely accuse the translation of the Bible printed at Geneua and others false translation for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is they that seemed or appeared he hath translated they that are the chiefe and although the place of the Galatians maye be thought of some not so pregnant nor so full against the Archbyshop yet all must needes confesse that it maketh more agaynst hym than for him For Saynt Paules purpose is to proue there that he was not inferior to any of the Apostles and bringeth one argument thereof that he had not his Gospell from them but from Christe immediately and therefore if the Apostles that were esteemed moste of and supposed by the Galatians and others to be the chiefe had no superioritie ouer S. Paule but were equall wyth him it followeth that there was none that had rule ouer the reste And if there needed no one of the Apostles to be ruler ouer the reste there seemeth to be no neede that one Byshop shoulde rule ouer the rest Io. Whitgifte I haue set downe the words of the Apostle as they be translated in the English Bible printed at Geneua not altering one title and therefore if there be any falsehood in the translation it is in that Bible not in me How truely you haue translated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 translated Beza saying it signifieth they that seemed or appeared let the Reader iudge after he hath considered these wordes of M. Beza vpon the same worde ad Galat. 2. verse 2. with those that are of reputation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those which are well estemed of the contrarie whereof are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they which are without renowne or estimatioÌ„ the coÌ„mon translatioÌ„ hath which semed to be some thing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which is coÌ„trarie to al our bokes vnto Ieromes interpretatioÌ„ also For thus he writeth which thing Erasmus also dothe well note I did very carefully search saith he what that should be that he said qui videbaÌ„tur they which semed but he hath takeÌ„ away al doubt in that he addeth Qui videbaÌ„tur esse colunmae they which were accouÌ„ted to be pillers Hetherto Hierom wherby he doth euidently declare that he had not read in this place 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But in such sort notwithstanding that he seemeth not to haue knowne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to haue bene called of the Grecians absolutely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is those who are of great estimation with all men And this ignorance of the Greke tong as I thinke was the cause that the olde interpreter being more bolder than Hierom did adde aliquid esse And Erasmus in his annotations Erasmus vpon the same place agréeth with M. Beza herein 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 absolut dicuntur Graecis qui magnae sunt aut oritatis they which are of great authoritie are of the Grecians absolutely called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Budeus also saith that the Apostle in this place taketh thys woorde Bude s. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And both M. Beza himselfe and Erasmus translate it as it is in the Geneua Bible Wherefore here your cunning faileth you and you had not well considered the matter before you entred this accusation of falsifying The true sense and meaning of this place to the Galat. I haue set downe in my Answere and it is according to the interpretation of the best writers iustified by the words of M. Caluine there alleaged and not confuted by you Wherfore the conclusion remaineth as it did That there was superioritie among the Apostles ordinis politiae causa I haue shewed before This place to the Galatians is not brought in by me to proue the authoritie of the Archbyshop although it might well be alleaged to proue degrées of honour in the ministerie but it is quoted in the Admonition fondly and foolishely to proue that the names of Archbishops Archdeacons Lordbishops c. are drawne out of the Popes shoppe together with their offices And of this dalying with the Scriptures you speake not one worde for you care not howe they be profaned so it be for the maintenance of your owne cause Chap. 6. the. 11. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 208. Sect. vlt. The wordes in the. 5. to the Hebrues verse 4. be these And no man taketh this honor to himself but he that is called of God as AaroÌ„ vvas The Apostle here sheweth that Christe was a lawfull Priest bycause he was therevnto called by God as Aaron was What is this to Archbishops c This place teacheth that no man ought to intrude hymselfe Weake argument s. to any function except he be there vnto called by God But what maketh this against any lawfull function or authoritie or what conclusion call you this Christ did not take vnto him that office whervnto he was not called or no man muste take vpon him that whervnto he is not called
places of Cyprian before mentioned and now these that follow to the strongest arguments of the Papists Wherfore I confesse that I vse some of the same arguments but not to the same ende nor in like maner For they vse them vntruely agaynst reason the true meaning of the Author I vse them truely according to reason and their proper sense And my vsing of them to the purpose that I doe is the direct answere playne ouerthrow of all the arguments of the Papists It is not therfore good dealing to make the simple beléeue that the same arguments confirme the Pope that confirme the Archbishop when as the application of them to the one is the quite ouerthrowe of the other M. Doctor neuer wēt about to proue that bicause there is one king ouer a realine therfore there may be one Bishop ouer aprouince and in vttering these and suche like vntruthes willingly wittingly as you do you declare of what spirite you are But M. Doctor hath reasoned cleane c ntrarie that it is no good argument to saye that bicause one king may well rule one kingdome therefore he may also well rule the whole world or bicause one Bishop may be ouer one prouince therfore one Pope may be ouer all Christendome These be papisticall reasons these M. Doctor dissolueth con uteth neythrr can you be ignorant of it but malice is blinde God forgiue you for your whole drift is to bring M. Doctor into hatred contempt by such lying meanes but God that séeth the hearts of al will one day detect your déepe dissembled hypocrisie reueale that lūpe of arrogancie ambition which is nowe cloaked with a counterfeit desire of reformation I haue tolde you for what purpose I haue vsed these solutions of M. Caluines whose opinion also I haue shewed before concerning those names and offices Caluine alloweth one to rule ouer the test of ministers In the place to the Philippians now agayne repeated and yet this Replier can abide no repetitions in others though he vse almost nothing else him selfe M. Caluine ouerthroweth your equalitie for thus he sayth Truely I graunt that as the manners and conditiōs of men are there can no order remaine amōg the ministers of the word xcept one do rule ouer the rest And he addeth that he speaketh de singulis corporibus non de totis prouincijs multò autem minùs de orbe vniuerso of seueral bodies not of whole prouinces much lesse of the whole worlde meaning as I suppose suche prouinces as be vnder What is mēte by a body in Caluine diuers gouernours for one prouince in one particular Church in one kingdome vnder one Prince is but one body and therfore M. Caluin sayth nothing to the cōtrary but that one may praeesse reliquis ministris rule ouer the rest of the ministers in such a prouince Undoubtedly he can not meane that in euery seuerall parishe or towne there should be one qui praesit reliquis bicause the most parishes townes haue but one minister and he that ruleth must haue some to rule ouer If you will say that M. Caluin meaneth of suche ministers as be in cities where there be many and not of the Countrey where there is in euery seuerall towne but one then I answere that it were agaynst reason to bring the ministers of the citie vnder the gouernment of one and to suffer the ministers of the countrey to liue as they list The same causes that require a ruler or gouernour for the one requireth the same also for y e other except you would haue vniformitie in the citie and confusion in the countrey Wherfore M. Caluines meaning is as I haue sayde But you haue subtilly kept in his wordes bothe héere and before bicause you know that they made much more against your equalitie than they doe agaynst the Archbishop It had béene vprighter dealing to haue set downe his words but you wil neyther vse that playnnesse your self nor allow of it in other men M. Caluine vseth two answeres to that obiection of the Papists the first whereof is this that I haue reported in my Answere And surely he would neuer haue vsed y ◠solution caused it to be printed if he had not allowed it thought well of it And not he alone but other of singular religiō zeale haue vsed the same as Hyperius in the place before by me alleaged so doth M. Nowell agaynst Dorman in his first booke Fol. 50. whose words bicause they be wholy to my purpose an euident declaration that such testimonies may lawfully be vsed for the authoritie of the Bishops that are Supra cap. 3. the. 15. diuis vnlawfully abused for the authoritie of the Pope I haue set downe before Wherby also the Reader may vnderstand how we agrée both amōg onr selues to our selues which are desirous to kéepe the peace of the Churche and that these places now vsed in the defense of the Archbishops and Bishops authoritie are no otherwyse applied by vs than they were before any suche controuersie beganne M. Caluine maketh no doubt of the matter but setteth it downe as an apt answer and by him allowed And therfore your obiection of Iacobs two wiues maye serue for a iest but little to the purpose It followeth not that if a man make two answers to one argument he disaloweth the one for they may both be true Touching M. Caluines second answere I haue spoken before and declared wherin that high Priest was a figure of Christ. M. Caluine in that place hath not these words that his iudgement is that as there should be no one ouer all Churches so should there be no one ouer any nation And therefore you kéepe your accustomed maner of falsifying Chap. 6. the. 17. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 211. Sect. 3. Another of their reasons is this Peter was the chiefe among the Caluin Inst. cap. 8. Apostles therfore there ought to be one chiefe ouer the whole Churche The same M. Caluine in the booke and chapter before rehearsed maketh his owne answere to that argument Vnus inter Apostolos summus fuit nempè quia pauci erant numero Si vnus duodecim hominibus praefuit an proptere sequetur vnum debere centum millibus hominum praefici There vvas one chiefe among the Apostles bicause they vvere but fevve in number but if one man rule ouer tvvelue shall it therefore follovve that one man maye rule ouer an hundreth thousande And a little after Quod inter paucos valet non protenu tr bendum est ad vniuersum terrarū orb m ad quem regendum nemo vnus sufficit That which is offorce among fewe may not by and by be drawne to the whole world the which no one man can gouern Euery hiue of Bees hath one chief maister Bee euery companie of Cranes hath one principall guide muste ther be therfore but one Bee one Crane to direct all the
collected and approued If your particular reasons be no better a small confutation will serue Chap. 1. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 1. Furthermore as the wisedome of God hath thought it the best way to keepe his people from infection of idolatrie to make them most vnlike the idolaters so hath the same wisedome of God thought good that to keepe his people in the vnitie of the truth there is no better way than that they should be most like one to another and that as much as possibly may be they should haue all the same ceremonies And therefore Sainct Paule to establish this order in the Churche of Corinth 1. Cor. 16. that they shoulde make their gat erings for the poore vpon the firste day of the Sabboth which is our Sunday alleadgeth this for a reason that he had so ordeyned in other Churches so th t as children of one father and scruantes of one family he will haue all the Churches not onely haue one dyet in that they haue one word but also weare as it were one liuerie in vsing the same ceremonies Io. Whitgifte You take vpon you to tell what the wisedome of God is withoute any warrante of gods word which is presumptiō I told you before that in outward shew and orme the Israelites had many things like vnto the Gentiles which cannot be denyed Unitie of Ceremonies is to be wished in all Churches though it be not so necessary for from the beginning there hath bin therein great varietie but s eing it is a thing so greatly to be desired why are you an occasion of the contrary why do you not submit your sel e to the Church that vnitie in all things may be obserued Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. This rule did the great Councell of Nice follow when it ordeyned that where certaine at the Con. Nic. can 20. feast of Pentecost did pray kneeling that they should pray standing the reason whereof is added which is that one custome ought to be kept through out a the Churches It is true that the diuersitie of ceremonies ought not to cause the Churches to dissent one with another but yet it maketh much to the auoiding of dissention that there be amongst them an vnitie not only in doctrine but also in ceremonies Io. Whitgifte This is to be wished throughout the whole Church of Christ if it were possible but as i neuer was hitherto so will it not be as long as this 〈◊〉 lasteth and least it should be in this particular Church of Englande Sathan hathe stirred vp instruments to procure the contrarie wherfore in these words as I thinke you condemne your selfe and all other dis urbers of the Church for external rites and ceremonies Chap. 1. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. Nowe we see playnly that as the forme of our seruice and Lyturgy commeth to neare that of the 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 farr different from that of other Churches reformed and therefore in both these respects to be amended Io. Whitgifte From what reformed Church doth it so far differ ▪ or to which reformed Churche would you haue it framed or why should not other reformed Churches as well frame them selues vnto vs for we are as well assured of our doctrine and haue as good grounds and reasons for our doing as they haue except you will bring in a newe Rome appoynt vnto vs an other head Church and crea e a newe Pope by whom we must be in all things directed and according to whose vsage we must rame our selues You knowe what M. Caluine sayth in the argument vpon the Epistle to the Galatians Calu. in argu in Epi. ad Gal. speaking of those that came from Ierusalem to other Churches Many were puffed vp sayth he with vaine glory bicause they were familiar with the Apostles or at the least were instructed in their schole Therfore nothing pleased them but that which they had seene at Ierusalem all other rites that were not there vsed they did not only refuse but A 〈◊〉 mischiefe boldly condemne Such a kinde of frovvardnesse is a most pestilent mischiefe vvhen as vve vvill haue the maner of on Church to be in place of an vniuersall lavve But this ariseth of a preposterous zeale wherby we are so affected towards Prepostrou zeale one master or place that without iudgement or 〈◊〉 we would binde all men and places vnto the opinion of one ma and vnto the 〈◊〉 of one place as vnto a common 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idē in 15. rule Albeit there is alwayes mixed ambition yea rather alwayes too muche frowardnesse is ambitious The like saying he hath vpon the. 15. of the Actes Luke dothe not expresse by what affection these va lets were moued yet is it very like that a preposterous zeale was the cause that they set themselues agaynst Paule and Barnabas for there are frowarde Frowarde wittes wittes whome nothing but their owne can please They had seene at Ierusalem circumcision and other rites of the lawe to be obserued and whether soeuer they come they can abide no newe thing or diuers As if the example of one Churche dyd bynde all other Churches as vvith a certayn 〈◊〉 But althoughe suche men are led Ambition with a preposterous zeale to more tumults yet inwardly their ambition moueth them and a certayne kinde of contumacie pricketh them forwarde In the meane time Sa han hath that which he desireth that the mindes of the godly beeing darkned with the smoke and mists that he casteth can scant discerne blacke from white Therefore this mischiefe is first to be auoyded that none prescribe vnto other a lavve of their custome least the example of one Church be preiudiciall to the cōmon rule Then an other A necessari caution caution must be added least the estimation of mens persons do eyther hinder or obscure the searche and inquirie of the matter and cause For if Sathan do transforme himselfe into an Angell of light and if he oftentimes vsurpe with wicked 〈◊〉 the holy name of God what maruel is it if through the same wickednesse he delude with the names of godly mē M. Gualter also vpon these words 1. Cor. 14. An à vobis ser o Dei profectus est writeth Gualter i 1. Cor. 14. thus VVho can thinke their insolencie to be tollerable that vsurpe authoritie ouer all Churches and wil haue them seruilely to be subiect vnto them Therfore that which Paule here presently fayth to the Corinthians the selfesame may at this day with better right be spoken to the Romish Cleargie which will haue all men subiect to their lawes and say that it is necessary vnto saluation that all soules should be subiect to the Bishop of Rome Thes things may also be applyed agaynst those whiche compell euery man to sweare vnto the opinion of their master as though it were sinne neuer so little to disagree from those things which
that a great parte of the people can not of knowledge tell whether he hath cursed them or blessed them whether he hath read in Latme or in Englishe all the whyche ryseth vpon the word s of ▪ the booke of seruice which are that the minister should stande in the accustomed place for therevpon the minister in saying Morning and Euening prayer sytteth in the Chauncel with hys backe to the people as thoughe he had some secret talke with God whych the people might not heare And herevpon it is likewise that after Morning prayer for saying another nūber of prayers he clymeth vp to the further end of the Chauncel runneth as farre from the people as the wall wyl let hym as though there were some variance betweene the people the minister or as though he were afrayde of some infection of plague in deede it renueth y e memorie of the Leuitical priesthoode which dyd withdrawe him selfe from the people into the place called the holyest place where he talked wyth God and offered for the sinns of the people Io. Whitgifte This nothing toucheth the order or substance of the booke and therefore no sufficient reason agaynst it if it were true But you héerein deale as you haue done in other matters that is corruptly and vntruely For you do not reporte the wordes of Corrupt dealing the booke concerning this matter as they be in déede and it is wonderfull and argueth great impadencie that you are not ashamed to reporte vntruely in so publike a cause The words of the booke be these The Morning and Euening prayer shall be vsed in the accustomed place of the Church Chappell or Chauncell excepte it shall be otherwise determined by the Ordinarie of the place And you leauing out all the rest say that the words of the booke of seruice are that the minister should stande in the accustomed place as though it bounde him of necessitie to the Chauncell which is nothing so But you Errours and isorder maynteyned by falsifying must be borne with your errours and disorders can not otherwise be maynteyned but by falsifying I thinke there are but fewe Churches in Englande where the Bi shops haue not taken a very good order for the place of prayer if any Bishop haue neglected it the fault is in the Bishop not in the booke But still I must desire the Reader to note the weightinesse of the reasons where by you goe about to deface the booke of common prayer Chap. 1. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 2. Likewyse or marriage he commeth backe agayne into the body of the Churche and for baptisme vnto the Churche doore what comelynesse what decencie what edifying is thys Decencie I saye in running and trudging from place to place edifying in standing in that place and a ter that sorte where he can worst be hearde and vnderstanded S. Luke sheweth that in the 〈◊〉 Churche bothe the prayers and preachings and the whole exercise of religion was done otherwyse For he sheweth howe S. Peter sytting amongest the rest to the ende he myghte be the better heard rose and not that onely but that he stoode in the middest of the people that hys voyce mighte as muche as mighte be come indifferently to all theyr ear s and so standing bothe 〈◊〉 and preached Nowe if it be sayde for the Chapters and Letanie there is commaundement giuen th t they should be read in the body of the Church in deede it is true and thereof is easily perceyued thys disorder which is in saying the rest of the prayers partly in the hither end partly in y e urther end of the Chauncel for eeing that those are read in the body of the Church that the people may both heare vnderst nd what is read what should be the cause why the rest should be read further of Unlesse it be that eyther those thyngs are not to be hearde of them or at the least not so necessarie for them to be heard as the other whych are recited in the body or middest of the Churche And if it be further sayde that the booke leaueth that to the discretion of the Ordinarie and that he may reforme it if there be any thyng amisse then it is easily answered agayne that besides that it is agaynst reason that the commoditie and edifying of the Churche should depende vpon the pleasure of one man so that vpon hys eyther good or euill aduyse discretion it should be well or euill with the Church Besydes thys I sa we s e by experience of the disorders which ar in many Churches and Dioceses in thys behalfe howe that if it were lawfull to commit such authoritie vnto one man yet that it is not safe so to doe considering that they haue so euill q tten them selues in their charges and that in a matter the inconuenience whereof is so easily seene and so easily reformed there is notwithstanding so great and so generall an abuse Io. Whitgifte These be passing weyghtie arguments to ouerthrowe the booke and come from a Weighty reasons agaynst the booke déepe and profounde iudgemente If I shoulde vse the lyke you woulde wype them away with scoffing The booke appoynteth that the persons to be married shall come into the body of the Churche with their f iendes and neighbours there to be married and what faulte can you finde in this Is not the middest of the Churche the moste méete place for suche a matter The booke speaketh neyther of the comming backe of the minister nor his going forwarde these be but your iestes and yet muste he goe both backwarde and forwarde if he wil eyther come into the Church or go out of it For baptisme y e booke appoynteth no place but bicause there is no iust cause knowne why the fon e should be remoued therefore the minister dothe stande where that is placed whiche is somewhere in one place somewhere in another for I know diuers plac s where it is in the middest of the Churche some place where it is in the nethermost parte I knowe no place where it standeth at the Churche doore And therfore in saying that for baptisme the minister goeth to the Churche doore you doe but counterfeyte No man denieth but that bothe praying and preaching c. ought to be in that place where it may be best heard of all and therefore the booke dothe prudently leaue it to the discretion of the Bishop But the middest is not the fittest place for that purpose He that standeth in the middest of the Churche hathe some behynde him some before him and some of eche syde of him those whiche be behinde or on the sides can not so well heare as those that be before as experience teacheth in Sermons at the Spittle at the Crosse in Paules and other places Wherefore in my opinion that place in the Churche is moste fittest bothe for praying and preaching where the minister may haue the people before him except the
not somtime pray and sometimes reade the scriptures what do we else in the whole order of our seruice will you still more and more vtter your contempt agaynst God against his Church against a most pure and godly kynde of publike prayer and seruice and that with such vnreuerend speaches But I omit thē it is inough to haue noted thē in the margent for they are cōfutation to thēselues Chap. 2. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 108. Sect. vlt. If a man should come to a Prince and keepe such order in making his petitions vnto him that hauing very many things to demaunde after he had demaunded one thing he woulde stay a long tyme and then demaunde another and so the thirde the Prince might well thinke that eyther he came to aske before he knew what he had neede of or that he had forgotten some piece of his sute or that he were distracted in his vnderstanding or some other such like cause of the disorder of his supplication And therefore how much more conuenient were it that according to the maner of the reformed Churches first the minister with an humble and generall confession of faults should desire the assistance of the Lord for the fruteful handling and receyuing of the worde of God and then after that we haue heard the Lorde speake vnto vs in his worde by his minister the Church should likewise speake vnto the Lorde and present all those petitions and sutes at once both for the whole Church and for the Prince and all other estates which shall be thought needfull Io. Whitgifte As much differencs as there is betwixt man and God so farre is your similitude The dissimilitude of the replyers similitude from prouing your purpose except you will admit the like similitude vsed by the Papists to proue praying to Saints for the one hath as muche strength to proue ani thing as the other and yet neither of them both worth a rush And here you doe iniurie to God to compare him to an earthly Prince especially in this behalfe For what Prince would not thinke himselfe abused if a man shoulde dayly and hourely sue vnto him But it is not so with God for we haue a commaundement to pray continually Luke 18. 1. Thes. 5. and he doth not respect the forme of wordes but the affection of the heart And in verie déede it is most conuenient that reading of the scriptures and praying should be intermingled All the scripture that you haue to alledge is the reformed Churches let other men thinke what they will I verily beléeue that in our maner and kinde of worshipping God in our publike and common prayers there is no cause why we shoulde thinke our selues one whit inferiour vnto them they also or the must part of them haue allowed the same order of ours at what time the like contention was about the same booke amōg our English mē which were in Q. Maries time banished for the gospel Chap. 2. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. I. And if any will say that there are short prayers found in the Acts it may be answered that S. Luke doth not expresse the whole prayers at large but only set downe the summes of them their chiefe poyntes And further it may be answered that alwayes those prayers were continued togyther and not cut off and shred into diuerse small pieces Io. Whitgifte Howe knowe you that S. Luke doth not expresse the whole prafers at large but onely set down the sums of thē their chief points What scripture haue you that teacheth you so to think if this be a sufficient answere to say the scripture hath not expressed the whole c. Why is it not also a sufficient answere for me to that which foloweth that the scripture The scripture hath not prescribed any forme of publike prayer ▪ hath not expressed any certaine or determinate forme of publike prayer to be vsed in all Churches as in déede it hath not but onely in the Lordes prayer giuen certaine generall poynts according to the whiche all our prayers must be framed Surely your fansie is strong but your arguments be excéeding weake For tell mée I pray you where haue you in the whole newe testament the Lordes prayer onely excepted any forme of publike prayer vsed in the Church described If you cannot shewe this why do you so childishly dallie Chap. 2. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. 2. Another fault is that all the people are appoynted in diuerse places to say after the Minister whereby not onely the tyme is vnprofitably wasted and a confused voyce of the people one speaking after another caused but an opinion bred in their heades that those onely be theyr prayers which they say and pronounce with their owne mouthes Which causeth them to giue the lesse heede to the rest of the prayers which they rehearse not after the Minister which notwithstanding are as well their prayers as those which they pronounce after the Minister otherwise than the order which is left vnto the Church of God doth beare For God hath ordeyned the Minister to this ende that as in publike meetings he onely is the mouth of the Lorde from him to the people euen so he ought to be (*) Vntruth ▪ onely the mouth of the people from them vnto the Lorde and that all the people should attende to that which is sayde by the Minister and in the ende both declare their consent to that which is sayde and their hope that it shall so be and come to passe whiche is prayed by the worde Amen As S. Paule declareth in the Epistle to the Corinthians And Iustine Martyr 1. Cor. 14. 1. Apol. pro Christianis sheweth to haue bene the custome of the Churches in his time Io. Whitgifte God be thanked that the booke is so per te that you are constreyned for sauing your credite with your Disciples thus triflingly to deale with it you vnchristianly say that the time is vnprofitably wasted which is spent in prayer you imagine that of the people that neuer entered into their thoughts you call it a confused voyce that is a most acceptable sounde vnto the Lorde and if to surmise or to imagine be sufficient then may we imagine your doctrine to tende to the contempt of prayer and the ouerthwarting of all good and godly order But you must knowe that there is more speciall cause why the people should rather reherse after the Minister those things that the booke appoynteth them so to do than the other prayers bicause they conteyne a generall confession of sinnes which all Christians togither as well in voyce as in heart ought to confesse neyther doth the booke prescribe the people to say any thing after the Minister the Lordes prayer after the Communion onely excepted but these generall Muscul. in 〈◊〉 Math. and publike confessions and yet if it did I sée not howe you can iustly therefore reproue it Musculus
authoritie he woulde be loth to reiecte I am sure least he shoulde lose the opinion of his studiousnesse of the olde writers which he hunteth so diligently after in this booke wherof he maketh the authors of the Admonitiō so great contemners And it is not hard to shew the same in twentie places more as in the tenth of S. Math. and S. Luke where as there are diuers things not to be followed of the ministers now other things indifferent to be followed so are there also other things that be as well commaunded to all the ministers that nowe are as they were then eyther to the. 12. or 70. disciples Io. Whitgifte And of those circumstances wherof there is no comm̄aundement howe proue you whiche be indifferent whych be vnlawful or not conueniēt to be followed which necessary why is it not as necessarie by this example of Iohn that they shoulde be baptized in Ioroane or that they shoulde confesse their synnes before they be baptized as it is that they shoulde bée publikely baptised If you take vppon you to interprete without authoritie and grounde ofscripture it is méete that you should shew verie good and substanciall reason I demaunde the lyke touching the places alleadged out of the Acts where you reteyn what you list refuse what you list alter as you list as though you were lorde ouer the Scripture and had omnia iura tam diuina quà m humana in scrinio pectoris all lawes as wel diuine as humane in the coffer of your breast lyke to the Pope But to these places of the Actes I haue answered in their due place Your s ffes make not your cause one whit the better Of twentie places you recite not one And of diuers things some indifferent some not to be followed other some comaunded to all ministers spoken to the twelue or scuentie disciples in the. 10. of Matthew and Luke you name none speaking without ground or reason is but pratling I knowe that in one action there be diuers circumstances of diuers conditions and natures but if any of them be necessarie at all tymes to be obseiued the Necessarie cir cumstāces are commaunded same is conteyned in some commaundement in the Scriptures and therfore well sayth Zuinglius that an argument à facto ad ius is then strong when as we are able to shewe that that whiche is doone is done according to some rule or commaundement Now if you can shew me either rule or commaundement in scripture that vppon no occasion we may preache or baptise in priuate families I yelde vnto you What examples doe proue without commaundement But if you can not this doe your examples proue what was then done and what in the lyke cause may be doone nowe but they make not any generall and perpetuall rule Nowe touchyng these and suche lyke circumstances in my opinion M Zuinglius in his booke de baptismo maketh a full resolution which may satisfye any reasonable Zuinglius man His wordes be these There is here three errours about circumstances that is the elementes of the worlde The first is of the tyme for they thoughte that baptisme was not rightly administred except it were in the fyrst day for the tyme is of no greate weight so that we take diligent heed of this that none rashly or negligently differre it longer than is conuenient for by this occasion it may come to passe that the baptisme of children might be taken away An other errour is touching the circūstance of the person for they thought that baptisme could not be administred of no other than of a priest when as notwithstanding euery man may minister it euen a woman if necessitie require the thirde errour is in the circumstance of the place bicause it is not necessarie that the insant shoulde only be baptized in the Churche Chap. 4. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvero to the Admonition Pag. 92. Sect. 3. 4. Baptisme was ministred in Cornelius house Actes 10. The place is not of the substance of the sacramentes To the. 1. Cor. II. it is answered before Surely this church of Englande Baptisme an house dothe not permit the sacramentes to be ministred in priuate places except there be a congregation and then not vsually but only in certaine cases T. C. Pag. 112. Sect. 1. An other reason he addeth there that S. Peter baptized in Cornelius house But M. Doctor maketh not the best choyse of his arguments For S. Paules baptizing in the house of the Iayler had bene more fit for him for vnto his place it may be easyly answered that Cornelius hauing so greate a familie as it is lyke he had and besydes that dyuers souldiours vnderneathe him and further his frendes and his acquayntance whiche he had called had a competente number and as many as would make a congregation and as could co mmodiously be preached vnto in one place But the answere to bothe these examples and other such lyke as that S. Paule baptized in the house of Stephana is easy For there being persecutions at that tyme so that it was not safe neyther for the minister nor for the people to be seene it was meete that they shoulde doe it in houses whiche otherwyse they would haue done in open places and then those houses whiche receyue the congregation are not as I haue shewed for the time to be counted priuate houses and further in places where the gospell hath not bene receyued nor no churche gathered but one onely householde embracing the Gospel I say in suche a case and especially in the tyme of persecution where shoulde the Ministers preache or minister the Sacramentes more conueniently than in that house where those professours of the gospell be nowe to drawe this into our churches which may safely come into open places and where the churche and congregation standeth of diuers houscholdes is a token of greate want of iudgement in shuffelyng those things together whyche for the great diuersitie of their natures will not be myngled Io. Whitgifte The example of Peters baptizing in Cornelius house is sufficient to proue that then it was lawful to baptize in priuate families the example of Paul baptizyng the iaylour and his familie proueth the same But it ministreth a more readie answere to a quareller bicause Paul then being prisoner had not such libertie to make cheise of his place as Peter had But they are both verie fit examples for my purpose the bignesse of Cornelius familie or the smalnesse is not materiall to this question for we speake of the place not of the persons And whereas you say that in Cornelius house there was a competent number and as many as would make a congregation I answer that so it is with vs when baptisme is ministred in priuate families for wheresoeuer Math. 18 two or three be gathered together in the name of Christ there is a congregation To your seconde answere of the difference of tyme bicause that was in tyme of
by suffering thrée or foure to communicate but the contrarie rather for the Godly example of these fewe may eyther prouoke the rest to the like diligence or else confounde them and make them ashamed especially if eyther that Godly exhortation conteyned in the booke bée read vnto them or they be otherwise put in minde of their slacknesse by a Godly and carefull Minister These circumstances excepted in the rest of the matter in this part I agrée with you Chap. 6. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 118. Sect. 1. And vpon this eyther contempt or superstitious feare drawne from the Papistes lenton preparation of fortie dayes eare hrift displing c. it commeth to passe that men receyuing the Supper of the Lord but seldome when they fall sicke must haue the Supper ministred vnto them in theyr houses which otherwise being once euery weeke receyued before shoulde not breede any suche vnquietnesse in them when they cannot come to receyue it although as I haue before shewed if they had neuer receyued it before yet that priuate receyuing were not at any hand to be suffered And thus hauing declared what I thinke to be faultie in the Communion booke in this poynt and the reasons why and withall answered to that which eyther M. Doctor alledgeth in this place of the 80. and 81. and likewise in the 152. and 185. pages touching this matter I come nowe vnto that which is called the Iewish purifying by the Admonition and by the seruice booke afore tyme the purifycation of women Io. Whitgifte I sée not howe this in any poynt is true for lenton fast was then vsed when the Communion was most diligently and often frequented and indéede the rare and seldome receyuing came in with priuate Massing which had the beginning long after the lenton fast To receyue once euery weeke is a thing to be wished if it might conueniently bée And yet notwithstanding were not the Communion to be denyed to the sicke for it oftentymes commeth to passe that men through infirmitie and sicknesse are not able to come to the Churche in whole monethes and yeares whome this wéekely communicating coulde nothing helpe and it were agaynst all reason to debarre them of this seale of Gods promises this effectuall maner and kinde of applying of the death of Christ vnto themselues this assurance of the forgiuenesse of sinnes and this Sacrament of comfort especially in tyme of extremitie and sicknesse if they be desirous of it And thus you haue declared what you thinke to be faultie in the Communion booke in this poynt and the reasons why but of what force your reasons are and how iustly in this poynt you charge the booke the Reader may now iudge Of the Churching of women Chap. 7. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 118. Sect. vlt. Now to the churching of women in the which title yet kept there seemeth to be hid a great part Leuit. 12. of the Iewish purification for like as in the olde law she that had brought forth a child was holden Srife about wordes vncleane vntill such time as she came to the temple to shewe hirselfe after she had brought forth a man or a woman so this terme of churching of hir can seeme to import nothing else than a banishment and as it were a certaine excommunication from the Churche during the space that is betwene the time of hir deliuerie and of hir comming vnto the Church For what doth else this churching implie but a restoring hir vnto the Church which cannot be without some barre or shutting forth presupposed It is also called the thankes giuing but the principall tytle whiche is the directorie of this part of the Liturgie and placed in the top of the leafe as that which the translator best lyked of is Churching of women To passe by that that it will haue them come as nigh the Communion table as may be as they came before to the high aultar bicause I had spoken once generally agaynst such ceremonies that of all other is most Iewish and approcheth nearest to the Iewish purifycation that she is commaunded to offer accustomed offrings wherein besydes that the verie worde offering caryeth with it a strong sent and suspition of a sacryfice especially being vttered symply without any addition it cannot be without daunger that the booke maketh the custome of the Popish Churche which was so corrupt to be the rule and measure of this offering And although the meaning of the booke is not that it should be any offring for sinne yet this maner of speaking may be a stumbling stocke in the way of the ignorant and simple and the wicked obstinate thereby are confirmed and hardned in their corruptious The best which can be answered in this case is that it is for the reliefe of the minister but then it should be remembred first that the minister lyueth not any more of offrings secondarily that the payment of the ministers wages is not so conuenient eyther in the Church or before all the people and thirdly that thereby we fall into that fault which we condemne in Poperie and that is that besydes the ordinarie liuing appoynted for the seruice of the Priests in the whole they tooke for theyr seuerall seruices of Masse Baptisme Burying Churching c. seuerall rewardes which thing being of the seruice booke well abolished in certains other things I cannot see what good cause there shoulde be to reteine it in this and certaine other Io. Whitgifte It is the propertie of quarellers and of men naturally bent to contention to striue Stryfe of wordes proper to quarellers about wordes and termes when they cannot reproue any thing in the matter it selfe For in all these faults here pretended there is not one that toucheth the matter of the booke onely the tytle in the top of the leafe the cōming of women so neare to the Communion table the paying of the accustomed offrings to the Curate are in this place reproued as matters of great importance being all of themselues not worth the talking off and yet béeing as comely and decent orders prescribed by the Church may not be contemned and despysed without the crime of stubbornnesse and disobedience But that your quarelling may the rather appeare I will answere your cauilles in as few wordes as I can and first for the title which is this The thankes giuing of women after child-birth commonly called the Churching of women Now sir you sée that the proper tytle The people hardly broght to leaue accustomed termes is this The thankes giuing of women after Childebirth The other is the common name customably vsed of the common people who will not be taught to speake by you or any man but kéepe their accustomed names and termes therefore they call the Lordes day Sunday and the next day vnto it Monday prophane and ethnicall names and yet nothing derogating from the dayes and tymes Lykewise they call the Morning and Euening prayer Mattens and
continuallye to be taught that hée shoulde at all tymes remember his dutie so is it verye necessarye to haue certayne feastes wherein by the readyng and hearyng of the Scriptures men maye be particularlye styrred to the remembraunce and depe consyderation of the principall partes of our Religion and the good and godlye examples of the Sainctes of God in doing their dutie therein Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 120. Lin. 18. But besydes the incommodities that vyse of makyng such holydayes and continuyng of those which are so horribly abused where it is confessed that they are not necessary besydes this I saye the matter is not so indifferent as it is made I confesse that it is in the power of the Churche to appoynt so many dayes in the weeke or in the yeare in the whiche the congregation shall assemble to heare the worde of God and receyue the Sacramentes and offer vp prayers vnto God as it shall thynke good accordyng to those rules whiche are before alleadged But that it hath power to make so manye holydayes as we haue wherein no man maye worke any parte of the daye and wherein men are commaunded to cease from theyr daylye vocations of Plowyng and exercisyng theyr handye craftes c. that I denye to be in the power of the churche For proofe whereof I wyll take the fourth commaundement and no other interpretation of it than M. Doctor alloweth of in the. 174. page whiche is that God lycenseth and leaueth it at the libertie of euery man to worke sixe dayes in the weeke so that he rest the seuenth day Seeing that therfore that the Lord hathe lefte it to all men at libertie that they might labour if they thinke good sixe dayes I say the Churche nor (*) You drawe from the Magistrate his law authoritie and giue to the people too muche carnall libertie no man can take away this libertie from them and driue them to a necessarie rest of the body Io. Whitgifte The same God that gaue that libertie in that commaundement did appoynt other solemne feast dayes besides the Sabboth as the feast of Easter of Pentecoste of Tabernacles c. withoute any restraynte of this libertie Therefore the interpretation giuen by me page 174. of that place dothe not leaue it to euery priuate mans frée libertie agaynst the authoritie of the Magistrate or of the Churche but it giueth libertie rather to suche as be in authoritie and to the Churche to appoynt therin what shall be conuenient The Magistrate hathe power and authoritie ouer his subiectes in all externall The Magistrate hathe authoritie to abridge externall libertie What libertie can not be taken away matters and bodily affayres Wherefore he maye call them from bodily labour or compell them vnto it as shall be thought to him moste conuenient The libertie that God giueth to man whyche no man oughte to take from hym nor can if he woulde is libertie of conscience and not of worldly affayres In bodily businesse he is to be gouerned by Magistrates and lawes This doctrine of yours is very licentious and tendeth too muche to carnall and corporall libertie and in déede is a very perillous doctrine for all states Not one title in Gods worde dothe constrayne eyther the Magistrate or the Churche from turning carnall libertie to the spiritual seruice of God or bodily labour to diuine worship as those doe that cause men to abstayne from corporall labour that they maye heare the worde of God and worship him in the congregation And whye maye not the Churche as well restrayne them from working anye parte of the daye as it maye doe the moste parte of it for you confesse that it is in the power of the Churche to appoynte so many dayes in the weeke or in the yeare in the whiche the congregation shoulde assemble to heare the worde of God and receyue the Sacramentes and offer vp prayers vnto God as it shall thinke good according to those rules whiche are before alleaged and this it can not doe vnlesse in the same dayes during all that tyme whiche is no small portion of the daye it restrayne them from bodily laboure Wherefore this béeing no commaundement that they shall labour sixe dayes in the wéeke but a signification that so many dayes they maye labour as the same God that gaue this commaundement hathe done before in the olde lawe so maye the Churches likewyse for the encrease of godlinesse and vertue and edification appoynt some of those sixe dayes to be bestowed in prayers hearing the worde administration of the sacraments and other holy actions Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 120. about the middest And if it be lawfull to abridge the libertie of the Churche in this poynte and in steade that the Lorde saythe Sixe dayes thou mayest labour if thou wilte to saye Thou shalte not labour sixe dayes I doe not see why the Churche maye not as well where as the Lorde saythe thou shalt rest the seuenth daye commaunde that thou shalte not rest the seuenth day for if the Church maye restrayne the libertie that God hathe giuen them it maye take away the yoke also that God hathe put vpon them Io. Whitgifte The Churche is not abridged of hir libertie in thys poynte but vseth hir libertie in appoynting some of these dayes to the worshipping of GOD and the instruction of his people whiche shoulde not be counted a bondage or seruitude to any man To rest the seuenth daye is commaunded to labour sixe dayes is but permitted he that for biddeth rest on the seuenth daye dothe directly agaynst the cōmaundement so dothe not he that restrayneth men from bodily labour in any of the sixe dayes and therefore the reason is not lyke And yet the commaundement of bodily rest vpon the seuenth day in sundrie cases maye of a mans selfe muche more at a lawfull commaundement of a Magistrate in necessitie be broken In thinges indifferent priuate mens willes are subiect to suche as haue authoritie ouer them therefore they ought to consent to their determination in such matters except they will shewe them selues to be wilfull whiche is a great faulte and deserueth muche punishment But hitherto you haue not replied to any Answere made to the Admonition Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 173. in the latter ende This is no restraynt for any man from seruing of God any daye in the weeke else For the Iewes had diuers other feastes whiche they by Gods appoyntment obserued notwithstāding these words Sixe dayes c. T. C. Pag. 120. Sect. 1. And where as you say in the. 173. page that notwithstanding this fourth commaundement the Iewes had certayne other feasts whych they obserued In deede the Lorde which gaue this generall lawe mighte make as many exceptions as he thoughte good and so long as he thought good but it followeth not bycause the Lorde dyd it that therefore the Churche may doe it vnlesse it hath commaundement and authoritie
our holydayes be some what short in number of theirs so far are we from hauing more than double as many as they had But your spirite is acquaynted with suche vntrue assertions But you saye we mighte haue all these commodities without all those daungers c. and why not as well this waye whiche the whole Churche hathe from tyme to tyme allowed as that way whiche certayne particular persons of their owne heades haue deuysed There is nothing that you haue to saye agaynst these dayes but onely their names and that those memories of Martyrs strayghten our consideration of them vnto those dayes c. and that men be inhibited from bodily labour to serue God al which I haue answered before and the latter in parte you confesse for you woulde haue certayne dayes appoynted for publike prayer the celebration of the sacraments hearing the worde and you seeme not to deny but that the remembrance of Saincts and Martyrs may be kepte onely you mislike that in the rest of the day men should be debarred from their bodily labours exercising their dayly vocations Wel I perceeue that something you woulde finde faulte with if you knewe what They are not so bounde from labour as it appeareth in the lawes of this Churche but that they may doe their necessarie businesse and in déede they are so farre from scrupulositie in thys poynte that all the punishmentes appoynted can not kéepe a number of them from their worldly affayres not in the very time of publike prayers and preaching of the worde and yet I sée no cause why they maye not iustly be wholly debarred excepte some vrgent occasion require sometime the contrarie from their bodily labours in suche dayes for are not the housholders bounde of duetie as well to instruct their families as the Pastor is bounde to instructe them and when is there a more conuenient tyme than in suche dayes If you haue suche a regarde to their worldly affayres is it not more commodious for them to abstayne wholly from worke vpon these Holydayes when they fall than twice or thrice euery wéeke halfe the daye Therefore this reason of yours as it is worldly so is it weake bothe in the respect of God and of the worlde also Your imagination that the kéeping of Easter dothe fetter the meditation of Easter to a A bayne reason fewe dayes c. and so likewyse the reste of the Holydayes I haue answered before it is a moste vayne reason and you mighte as well saye that there oughte to be no certayne tymes appoynted for the receyuing of the holy Communion bycause the meditation of the death and passion of Christe and the application of the same is fettered to these certayne dayes whiche shoulde continually be thoughte of and dayly as long as we lyue The same mighte you saye likewyse of the Sabboth daye But you oughte to knowe that the especiall celebrating of the memorie of Christes resurrection once in the yeare is no more a fettering of our meditation thereof to that daye onely than the receyuing of the Communion once in the moneth is a strayghting of our consideration of the deathe and passion of Christe to that time onely wherein we receyue the holy Sacrament By this reason of yours we muste eyther haue suche memories celebrated at all times or at no time But wyse men can consider howe farre you wander for want of reason Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 176. Sect. 3. 4. 5. Ierome writing vpon the. 4. chap. to the Galatians sayth on this Ierome sorte If it be not lavvfull to obserue dayes moneths times and yeres vve also fall into the like fault vvhich obserue the passion of Christ the Sabboth day and the time of Lent the feasts of Easter and of Pentecoste and other times appoynted to Martyrs according to the maner and custome of euery nation to the vvhich he that vvill ansvvere simply vvill say that our obseruing of dayes is not the same vvith the Ievvish obseruing for vve doe not celebrate the feast of vnleuened bread but of the resurrection death of Christe c. And least the confused gathering togither of the people should diminishe the fayth in Christ therfore certayne dayes are appoynted that vve might all meete togither in one place not bicause those dayes be more holy but to the intent that in vvhat day soeuer vve meete vve may reioyce to see one another c. Augustine in lyke manner Lib. 18. de ciuitate Dei cap. 27. sayth That vve honor Augustine the memories of Martyrs as of holy men and suche as haue striuen for the truthe euen to death c. The same Augustine in his boke Contra Adamantum Manachaei Discip. ca. 16. expounding the woordes of the Apostle Ye obserue dayes yeares and tymes wryteth thus But one may thinke that he speaketh of the Sabboth do not vvee say that those tymes ought not to be obserued but the thinges rather that are signified by them for they did obserue them seruilely not vnderstanding vvhat they did signifie and prefigurate this is that that the Apostle reproueth in thē in all those that serue the creature rather than the Creator for vve also solemnly celebrate the Sabboth day and Easter and all other festiuall dayes of Christians but bycause vve vnderstand vvhervnto they do appertayne we obserue not the times but those thinges vvhich are signified by the tymes c. T. C Pag. 122. Sect. 1. Nowe whereas M. Doctor citeth Augustine and Ierome to proue that in the Churches in theyr times there were holy dayes kepte besides the Lordes day he might haue also cyted Ignatius and Tertullian and Cyprian which are of greater aunctencie and would haue made more for the credite of his cause seing he measureth all his truthe almoste through the whole booke by the crooked measure and yarde of tyme. For it is not to be denied but this keeping of Holydayes especially of the Easter and Pentecoste are very auncient and that these holydayes for the remembraunce of Martyrs were vsed of long tyme but these abuses were no auncienter than other were grosser also than this was as I haue before declared and were easie further to be shewed if neede required and therefore (*) An vnlearned shifte I appeale from these examples to the Scriptures and to the examples of the perfectest Churche that euer was which was that in the Apostles tymes Io. Whitgifte I knowe that I might haue alleaged many other authorities for the proofe of The Repliee appealeth itō auncient authoritie this matter but I thought these two sufficient as they be in déede in such a matter as this is and your lightly reiecting of them will winne no credite to your cause among wise and learned menne You may easilie perceyue by the woordes of bothe these Authours that these dayes in their tyme were rightly and without all superstition vsed But you do well to appeale from these examples
and from all other auncient authoritie of learned menne for you knowe full well your lacke of abilitie to maynteyne this and other your opinions by the testimonies of auncient wryters nay you can not but confesse that the olde learned Fathers are vtterly agaynst you which is the cause why you appeale from them but it is an vnlearned shirt Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag â–ª 122. Sect. 1. And yet also I haue to say that the obseruation of those feastes firste of all was much better than of later tymes For Socrates confesting that neyther our Sauiour Christe nor the Apostles li. 5. ca. 22. did decree or institute any holydayes or laye any yoke of bondage vpon the neckes of those which came to the preaching addeth further that they did vse firste to obserue the holydayes by custome and (*) Socrates wordes vntruly reported that as euery man was disposed at home which thing if it had remayned in that freedome that it was done by custome and not by commaundement at the will of euery one and not by constraynt it had bene much better than it is now and had not drawne such daungers vpon the posteritie as did after ensue and we haue the experience of Io. Whitgifte Surely they were neuer better nor more pure from al supersticion and other errours than they be nowe in this Churche and therefore in that respecte there is no cause to complaine You do not truely reporte Socrates words nor yet his meaning for he doth not say Socrat. Lib. Cap â–ª 22. that euery man at home kepte those dayes as he was disposed but thus he sayth VVherefore neyther the Apostle nor the Gospell do at any tyme laye a yoke of bondage vpon them whiche come vnto the preachyng of the Gospell but menne themselues euery one in theyr countrie according as they thought good celebrated the feast of Easter and other holydayes of custome for the intermission of theyr laboures and remembrance of the healthfull passion his meaning is not that euery priuate man in his owne house kepte Easter and the other feastes as him lysted but that euery Churche appoynted such an order and tyme for the same as it thought conuenient and that this is his meaning that whiche followeth in that Chapter and expresseth his owne opinion of this mater dothe euidently declare His woordes be these Surely I am of this opinion that as many other thinges in diuerse places haue bene brought in of custome so the feaste of Easter had a priuate or peculiar obseruation with euery particular people of custome bycause none of the Apostles as I haue sayde did make any lawe hereof c. For his whole drifte is to proue that the feast of Easter concerning the daye and tyme was diuersly obserued in diuers Churches and Countries but he neyther can proue nor goeth aboute to proue that there was any Churche wherein it was not obserued And I haue before declared that the feast of Easter was obserued by the Apostles and sithence that tyme continued Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 177. Sect. 1. Pag. 178. Sect. 1. c. Other reformed Churches also haue dayes ascribed to Sainets Bullinger aswell as we as it may appeare by these wordes of Bullinger writing Obseruing of holydayes in other reformed churches vpon the. 14. to the Rom. In the auncient vvriters as Eusebius and Augustine thou mayste finde certayne memorials appoynted to certayne holy menne but after an other manner not muche differing from oures vvhich vve as yet reteyne in our Churche of Tigurie for vvee celebrate the natiuitie of Christe his Circumcision Resurrection and Ascention the comming of the holy Ghost the feastes also of the virgin Mary Iohn Baptiste Magdalene Stephen and the other Apostles yet not condemning those vvhich obserue none but onely the Sabboth daye For perusing olde Monumentes vve finde that this hath alvvayes bene left free to the Churches that euery one should follow that in these things that should be most best and conuenient M. Bucer in his Epistle to master Alasco speaking of holydayes Bucer sayeth That in the Scriptures there is no expresse commaundement of them it is gathered notvvithstanding sayeth he from the example of the olde people that they are profitable for vs to the encrease of godlinesse vvhich thing also experience proueth To be shorte Illyricus writing vpon the fourth to the Galat. maketh Obseruing of dayes considered foure wayes this diuision of obseruing dayes and times The first is naturall as of somer spryng time winter c. tyme of planting tyme of sovvyng time of reaping c. 1 The second is ciuill 2 The third Ecclesiasticall as the Sabboth daye and other dayes vvherein 3 is celebrated the memorie of the chiefe histories or actes of Christe vvhiche be profitable for the instruction of the simple that they may the better remember vvhen the Lorde vvas borne vvhen he suffred vvhen he ascended vp into heauen and be further taught in the same The fourth superstitious vvhen we put a necessitie vvorshipping merite 4 or rightuousnesse in the obseruing of tyme and this kinde of obseruing dayes and tymes is onely forbidden in this place Thus you see by the iudgementes of all these learned menne that dayes ascrybed vnto Sainctes is no suche matter as ought to make menne separate themselues from the Churche and absteyne from allowing by subscription so worthie and godly a booke as the booke of common prayer is much lesse to make a Schisme in the Churche for the same T. C. Pag. 122. Sect. 2. 3. As touching M. Bucers M. Bullingers and Illyricus allowance of them if they meane such a celebration of them as that in those dayes the people may be assembled and those partes of the Scriptures which concerne them whose remembraunce is solemnised redde expounded and yet men not debarred after from their dayly workes it is so much the lesse matter if otherwise that good leaue they giue the Churches to dissent from them in that poynte I do take it graunted vnto me being by the grace of God one of the Churche Although as touching M. Bullinger it is to be obserued since the time that he wrote that vpon the Romanes there are aboute 35. yeares sithence which time although he holde still that the feastes kept vnto the Lorde as of the Natiuitie Easter and Pentecoste dedicated vnto the Lord may be kept yet he demeth flatly that it is lawfull to keepe holy the dayes of the Apostles as Confessio Ecclesiae Tigur alianim Eccles cap. 24. it appeareth in the confession of the Tiguryne Church ioyned with others Io. Whitgifte How perfect an Answere this is to these learned mennes authorities lette the learned Reader iudge You are not a Churche but a member of the Churche and therefore seing the matter is such as the Churche may take an order in you ought to submitte your selfe to the determination of that Churche
Sunday whiche you haue denied to be his opinion in the former two places I haue tolde you what he meaneth by discipline and order or pollicie whereby he giueth to vnderstande nothing lesse than that whiche you woulde conclude beyng but your owne deuise to serue for a poore shifte at a néede And although the matter is not greate whether they labour or no yet the lawe of the Prince and the order of the Churche is to be obserued And so it appeareth that there is no reasonable cause as yet proued why you ought not to subscribe to the seruice Booke Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 82. Sect. 1. 2. In the ende you adde patched if not altogither yet the greatest peece out of the Popes Portuis To this I answere briefely it maketh no matter of whome it was inuented in what Booke it is conteyned so that it be good and profitable and consonant to Gods worde Well sayeth Ambrose Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu Sancto est All truth of vvhome soeuer it is spoken is of the holy ghost T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 6. Nowe whereas M. Doctor sayeth it maketh no matter wither these thinges be taken out of the Portuis so they be good c. I haue proued first they are not good then if they were yet beyng not necessarie and abused horribly by the Papists other beyng as good and better than they ought not to remayne in the churche Io. Whitgifte Your reasons be not sufficient to proue them not to be good the abuse hath not bene suche but that it beyng remoued the thing may still remayne as profitable and The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 iudgement conuenient the iudgement of the Churche in determining what is best and moste fittest in matters of order pollicie and gouernment not beyng agaynst the worde of God is to be preferred before any priuate mans opinion and imagination Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 10. And as for Ambrose saying all truth of whome soeuer it be sayde is of the holy ghoste if I were disposed to moue questions I coulde demaunde of him which careth not of whome he haue Mark 1. the truth so he haue it what our Sauiour Christe ment to refuse the testimonie of Deuils when they gaue a cleare testimonie ▪ that he was the Sonne of God and the holy one And what S. Paule ment to be angrie and to take it so grieuously that the Pithonisse sayde he and his companion Act. 16. were the seruantes of the highe God which preached vnto them the way of saluation Here ▪ was truth and yet reiected and I would knowe whether M. Doctor would saye that these spake by the spirite of God Thus whilest without all iudgement he snatcheth here a sentence and there another out of the Doctoures and that of the worste as if a man should of purpose choose out the brosse and leaue the siluer within a while he will make no great difference not onely betwene the Prophetes and Apostles and prophane wryters as Aristotle and Plato but not betwene them and those which speake not by the conduyte and leading of the holy ghoste but by the violent thrusting of the wicked spirite Io. Whitgifte Christe liked not the truth beyng vttered of the Diuell bycause he spake it of an euill meaning but he liked very well the same testimonie of truth afterwardes vttered by Peter sincerely Math. 16. Mar. 8. Neyther did he mislike the woordes bycause they were abused by the Diuell before But I will leaue Diuels and speake of men of whome I thinke Ambrose mente although the truth is truthe of whome soeuer it is vttered but to Answere for Ambrose he hath sayde nothing in that sentence which may not be iustified M. Caluine vpon these woordes 1. Corinth 12. And no man can saye that Iesus is the Caluine Lorde but by the holy Ghost sayeth thus It may be demaunded whether the wicked haue the Spirite of God seyng they sometime testifie playnely and well of Christe I answere that there is no doubte but that they haue so much as concerneth that effect but it is an other thing to haue the gifte of regeneration than to haue the gifte of bare vnderstanding wherewith Iudas was indued when he preached the Gospell M. Martyr also vpon the same woordes after he hath recited the opinions of other P. Martyr maketh this resolution But when I weygh this matter with my selfe I perceyue that the Apostle here dothe speake not of the Spirite whiche doth regenerate or of that grace which iustifieth but of the giftes which are freely giuen whiche may happen as well to the good as to the euill Therefore I thinke that Paule spake simply that he might declare that by what meanes soeuer we speake well of Christe it is of the holy Ghost of whome Omne verum à spiritu sancto est commeth all truthe as all vntruth proceedeth of the Deuill who is the father of lyes You sée therefore that Ambrose is not of this iudgement alone and that his saying is verie true The Doctoures that I haue vsed in this cause be Ierome and Augustine whiche be not the worst but comparable with the best I haue rehearsed out of them whole sentences and perfite the which you are not able to answere the rest of your opprobrious woordes wherewith you conclude this question of holy dayes I leaue for other to consider of as notes of your spirite And to the intent that the Reader may vnderstande that it was not for naught that you set not downe my Booke togither with your Replie I will here set downe such portions of my booke touching this matter as you haue not answered vnto but closely passed ouer not thinking that any man should haue espied your lacke of abilitie to answere them Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision Admonition They should first proue that holy dayes ascribed to Sayncts prescript seruices for them c. are agreeable to the written worde of the Almightie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 153. Sect. 4. Pag. 154. Sect. 1. Holy dayes ascribed to Sainctes wherein not the Sainctes but God is honoured and the people edified by reading and hearing suche stories and places of Scripture as perteyne to the martyrdome calling ▪ and function of such Sainctes or any other thing mentioned of them in Scripture must needes be according to Gods worde For to honor God to worship him to be edified by the stories and examples of Sainctes out of the Scripture cannot be but consonant to the Scripture The prescript secuice for them is all taken out of Gods worde and not one peece thereof but it is moste consonant vnto the same If ther be any that is repugnant set it down that we may vnderstande it I tolde you before that touching the dayes and times and other Ceremonies the churche hath authoritie to determine what is most cōuenient
For proofe of all that I haue here sayde I referre my selfe to common experience and the like pract ses in other Churches by persons of much like disposition as the notes in the beginning of the second edition of my Answer to the Admonition doth more 〈◊〉 large declare What that lawfull eccles asticall gouernment of those which you say God hath appoynted in his word is ▪ and whether it verifyeth my saying or no shall be séene whē we come to that part of your Replie Certain it is that you would transferre both the authoritie of the Prince Archbyshop and Bishop to your selues and your seniors ▪ for that is the lawfull ecclesiasticall gouernment you meane And those be the persons whome you thinke God to haue appoynted in his word as it will fall out more euidētly hereafter Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 87. Sect. 2. Wherefore you that be in authoritie if you loue the peace and prosperitie An exhortation to those that be in authoritie of the Church of Christ if you desire the good successe of the Gospell if you will preserue the state of this Realme if you thinke it necessary to haue good magistrates to haue good lawes and orders in a common wealth if you esteeme learning and seeke to preferre it if you hate anarchian confusion Anabaptisme if you allowe of your owne condition ▪ and like of a kingdome better than of a popular state Then prouide betime some speedy remedy for these and suche like kind of men and if the religion you haue established be good if the orders and lawes you haue made be conuenient let them not be written against spoken against nay openly contemned and broken withoute sharpe and seuere punishment suffer not suche as execute them to be contemned hated discouraged and oftentimes frumped Lawekeepers contemned by some superiours Either let your lawes be mainteined as lawes or else deliuer vs from our dutie in executing and obeying of them T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 2. He turneth him self to those that be in authoritie whom he would make beleue that it standeth vpon the ouerthrow of the church of religion of order of the Realme of the state of Princes of Magistrates which are by this meanes established and whose estates are made this way most sure when as the true causes of these clamors and outcries that M. Doctor maketh is nothing else but the feare of the ouerthrow of that honoure which is to the dishonor of God and ignomune of his Church and which maketh to the good dispensing of these goodes for the ayd and helpe of the Church which now serue to oppresse it Io. Whitgifte It shall be sufficient to referre the consideration of this your answer to such as be in authoritie who can best consider of both our meanings Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 88. Sect. 1. Touching the Court of faculties I cannot say muche for I haue no great experience of it and lesse knowledge in the lawe notwithstanding The Court of faculties bycause by lawful authoritie it is allowed in this Realme I cannot but reuerently iudge of it for in such matters I thinke it a poynt of modesty to suppose the best and to absteine from cōdemning of that gouernment whiche is allowed as conuenient If there be faultes in the officers they may be corrected T. C. Pag. 124. Sect. 2. As for the Court of faculties the corruptions thereof being so cleare that all men see them and so grosse that they which cannot see may grope them M. Doctor answereth that he knoweth not what it meaneth and therefore is moued of modesty to thinke the best of it whiche is but a simple shift For besides that that the Admonition speaketh nothing of it but that the streates and high wayes talke of if there had bin any defense for it it is not to be thought that M. Doctor woulde haue bin so negligent an aduocate as to haue omitted it seeing if he were ignorant he mighte haue had so easily and with so little cost the knowledge of it As for his modesty his bolde asseueration of things which are doubtfull which are false which are altogyther vnlikely which are impossible for him to know doth sufficiently bewray and make so well knowne that no such visard or paynting can serue to make men beleeue that meere modesty shut vp his mouth from speaking for the Court of faculties which hath opened his mouth so wide for the defense of those things wherein as it falleth out he hathe declared himselfe to haue lesse skill and vnderstanding than he hathe of that Court. Io. Whitgifte I haue spoken my cōscience of that Court neither did I cōferre with any to giue me any instructions concerning it And surely as I thought then so do I think now I haue affirmed nothing which I will not stand to except you can conuince me by better reasons than I haue heard any as yet That Court hath the original and authoritie from the Prince it is established and confirmed by Parliament it medleth nothing with that that perteyneth to the office eyther of Byshop or Pastor The principall officers be the Lord Chauncellour and the Archbyshop It maynteyneth the Quéenes prerogatiue in causes ecclesiasticall and was erected the. 25. reare of King Henry the eyght by authoritie of Parliāment to the suppressing and vtter abolishing of the Byshop of Romes iurisdiction It medleth not for any thing that I know with matters that by learning can be proued to be against the word of God and in some poynts it cannot without inconuenience be missed But this is a matter of pollicie and therefore I leaue the further consideration of it to suche as God hathe committed the gouernmente of thys realme vnto to whome it dothe especially apperteyne Of preaching before the administration of the Sacramentes Tract 12. The first Diuision Admonition Now to the second point which concerneth ministration of sacraments In the olde time the word was (t) Math. 3. 12. preach d before they were ministred now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be read Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 89. Sect. 1. 2. 3. The second external note of the true Church of Christ is ministring The second externall note of the church of the Sacraments sincerely you would proue that this Church of England hath not the Sacraments sincerely ministred first by three generall reasons perteyning to both the sacramēts then by certaine abuses which you find seuerally in either of them The first generall reason is this In olde time the worde was preached before the Sacraments were ministred now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be red To proue that the word was preached before the Sacramentes were ministred you alleadge the third of Matthew vers 12. VVhich hath his fanne in his hand and vvill make cleane his flovver and gather his vvheate into his garner but vvill burne vp the chaffe vvith vnquenchable fire I vnderstand not how you can of this place conclude that there
(*) Herein you haue aptly described your own nature It is a token of at nature disposed to no great quietnesse whiche rather than he would not striue striueth with himselfe Io. Whitgifte Whither I accuse them iustly or no I shall referre it to the Reader to iudge after I haue set downe their very wordes which indéede no Christian cares can paciently heare pag. 157. they say thus Reading is not feeding but it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse to Which wordes if they be well marked and ioyned with the reason that followeth for players yet learne their partes without booke c. must néedes signifie a mer contempt of reading the scriptures and a mynde that thinketh lesie edifying to come by reading than by playing vpō a stage which is an vntolerable blasphemy Pages 164. and. 165. their talke of reading the scriptures tendeth wholy to this purpose to make the same altogether vnprofitable and surely no man can excuse them of this crime but he that is bent without respect to assent vnto them in all thinges though they be moste manifestly false and moste absurde But I would haue the Reader marke this one thing that speaking of a reading minister you saye It I may so call hym whereby you giue playne signification that you may not call nor esteeme them to be ministers which cannot preache Whiche if it be true then haue they not in your doctrine delyuered any of the sacramentes The marke that the Replier shoteth at so consequently so many not baptized as haue bene baptizedby thē to the proofe wherof your doctrine tendeth wholly The like he hath after warde pag. 128. Sect. 1. Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 4. And although the cause beiust and good which he defendeth yet I wyll note in a worde or two howe as though there were pitche or some worse thing in his handes he defileth whatsoeuer he toucheth Io. Whitgifte A token of a modest and quiet nature to impeache a knowne truthe for the persones sake that doth defend it Nunquid sic factitabat Paulus Did Paule so or did Peter dally in that manner Paule was content to allowe the truthe preached euen by false Prophetes But what should I compare the mylde modest and louing spirite of the Apostles with the contentious and scoffing spirite of T. C Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 4. But I would gladly learne why you do so greatly mislike of reading Zvvingfildians mislike reading of scriptures the scriptures I hope you be not Zvvingfildians is not the word of God as effectuall when it is read as when it is preached or is Reading is preaching not reading preaching T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 6. First therfore he asketh and so that he doth most boldly and confidently affirme it whither the worde of God is not as effectuall when it is read as when it is preached or whether reading bee not preaching In which two questions although the one of them confuteth the other for so much as if reading be preaching as he sayth then the comparison of the profit and efficacie betweene one and the other is absurde yet I wyll answere to both I say therefore that the worde of God is not so effectuall read as preached For S. Paule sayth that faith commeth by hearing and hearing of the worde preached so that the ordinary and especiall meanes to worke faythe by is preaching Rom. 10. and not reading Io. Whitgifte I haue affirmed nothing so boldely which I haue not as strongly by good authorities and reasons cōfirmed to the which you haue not answered but in this manner of brawling If you did vnderstande that there are diuers kindes of preachings as M. Bucer declareth vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. and that reading of the scriptures is one of them which also the same Bucer there affirmeth then would you haue absteyned from giuing this sentence That if reading be preachyng than is the comparison of the profitte and efficacy betweene one and the other absurde for one kynde of preaching may be compared to an other without any absurditie I say that S. Paule in that chapter to the Romains by preaching doth generally Preaching for publishing the Gospell by voyce generally vnderstand all kindes of publishing the Gospel by the external voyce which comprehendeth reading as well as it doth that which you call preaching and it is greatlye against the dignitie and maiestie of the scriptures it also greatly confirmeth the error of the Papistes touching the obscuritie of the scriptures and debarring the people from reading them to saye that fayth commeth not by reading for that is to make them dumbe and vnprofitable M. Bucer vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. setteth foorth the cōmoditie of reading the scriptures The commoditie of reading the scriptures in the churche Bucer in this manner Reading of the holy scriptures was appointed to this end that both the phrase and manner of speaking of the scripture and the scripture it self might be more knowen and more familiar to the people when as they which did interprete the scriptures could not finish one little part thereof in one whole yeare In the meane time by the onely reading of the scriptures the people were maruelously confirmed in the knowledge of all the pointes and doctrine of saluation For they be in euery booke oftentimes repeated and expounded with diuers wordes that the people of that which followed might vnderstande many things which in that that went before they could not sometime perceiue and by that meanes the iudgement of the people was confirmed in all pointes of religion so that they were able to iudge of the interpretation of the scriptures and of all doctrine whiche was taught them by their owne Curates and teachers or by any other And therfore in auncient Churches this bare reading of the scriptures was greatly esteemed Of reading of scriptures God be thanked it is very well appointed in the Churche of Englande c. Thus farre M. Bucer Surely I maruell what is ment by this your straunge kinde of doctrine except you would haue the people through ignorance of the scriptures brought againe to this point that they must only depende vpon the mouth of the Pastor Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 14. And although reading do helpe to nourish the fayth which commeth by preaching yet this is gyuen to the preaching 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is by excellency and for that it is the excellentest and most ordinary meanes to worke by in the heartes of the hearers The beholding of the creatures and the consideration of the makyng of the worlde and of Gods wisdome and wonderfull loue appearing in them doth nourish and strengthen fayth and yet may it not therefore in efficacie be compated to the preaching of the worde of God Io. Whitgifte Reading of the scriptures doth not only nouryshe fayth but ingendreth faith also Reading
Anabaptists Catabaptistes and Papistes Io. Whitgifte Yet you should here haue excused their ignorance in certaine poynts and theyr absurd reasoning but seeing you are content so lightly to passe all this ouer and leauing the defense of the Admonition séeke to confute my collections I am contente also that it stande vntouched and will answere that whyche you onely séeme to misselyke I doe not otherwyse suspect them of Arrianisme than they haue giuen iust occasion by dislyking the publike reading of that Creede whiche was purposely made to ouerthrow Arrianisme I trust there is a great number of suche as feare God in the Churche of Englande that knowe not them but yet for their rashnesse in this point haue them in some suspiition By these examples of negatiue argumentes from the Scriptures I ouerthrow all the Anabaptistes reasons that they do or can vse in the defense of their errours so do I lykewyse yours vsed against this Church of England neyther speake I any otherwyse of the baptisme of infantes or of womens receyuing the Communion than M Zuinglius doth in his Elench against the Anabaptistes and M. Caluine also in his booke written against them But this answere sore troubleth you and therefore you onely replie against it with slaunderous wordes but least you should by such meanes abuse the Reader I will set e downe bothe Zuinglius and Caluines wordes M. Zuinglius in his Elench contra Zuinglius Anabap. sayth thus You can fynde no hole to escape at For you foolyshly reason negatiuely from deedes and examples naye from no deedes and no examples For what doe you else when you saye wee reade not that the Apostles didde baptize infantes Ergo infantes oughte not to be baptized Dothe not all the force of youre reasons consyste herein And again VVherfore it is to be maruelled at with what face they dare measure the Baptisme of Infantes by the Scripture or rather by not scripture for they haue nothing in the Scripture whervnto they may truste but they make onely the negatiue their foundation when they saye we reade not that the Apostles baptized infantes therefore they ought not to bee baptized c. And in his booke de Baptismo of the baptisme of infantes and the first originall thereof neyther I nor any other man can otherwise affirme if we respect the expresse and euident worde of God than that it is that true and onely baptisme of Christe For we may fynde many things of this sorte whereof although there be no expresse and playne testimonie of God yet they are not repugnant to his will but rather agreeth with the same of this sort is that that we make women partakers of the Lords supper when as notwithstandyng wee reade of none that sat downe in that Supper which Christe dyd institute And M. Caluine in his booke aduersus Anabaptist sayeth in lyke Caluine maner They haue nothyng to saye agaynste the Baptisme of infantes but that there is no where any mention made that the Apostles did vse it to this I answere that no more doe wee reade in any place that they did at any tyme minister the Supper of our Lorde to any woman And yet these two be neyther Anabaptistes ▪ Catabaptistes nor Papists but valiant captaines against them all Chap. 1. the seconde Diuision Admonition The fourthe There was then accustomed to bee an examination of the communicantes whiche nowe is neglected Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 96. Sect. 2. 3. Howe proue you that there was then any examination of communicantes Examination of communicantes If there hadde bene eyther commaundemente or example for it in Scriptures I am sure you woulde not haue lefte it vnquoted in the margent Saincte Paule sayeth 1. Cor. 11. Probet 1. Cor. 11. bomo seipsum Lette a man examine hym selfe c. But he speaketh of no other examination wherefore this reason of youres is altogether friuolous and without reason And yet I doe not disallowe the examination of communicants so there be a discreete respecte had of the persons places and other circumstances neyther is it neglected in this Churche of Englande but by learned and discrete ministers wyth learnyng aud discretion vsed But note I praye you the force of this argumente some ministers neglecte to examine the communicantes Ergo the Communion is not rightly and syncerely ministred as thoughe the examination of the communicantes were of the substance of the sacrament If you woulde reason after your accustomed manner you should rather conclude thus the Apostles were not examined when they receyued the communion neyther is it expressed in Scriptures that they examined others therefore there ought to be no suche examination this is your vsual maner of reasonyng but it is chyldish vnlesse it were to conclude damnation or saluation T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. M. Doctor asketh howe it is proued that there was any examination of the communicantes After this sorte all things necessarie were vsee in the churches of God in the Apostles tymes but examination of those whose knowledge of the mysterie of the Gospel was not knowne or doubted of was a necessary thing therefore it was vsed in the churches of God whiche were in the Apostles time Io. Whitgifte I denie your minor fyrst bycause no suche at that tyme woulde offer themselues to receyue the communion Secondly bicause if any such did offer themselues not béeing knowne the fault is particular to themselues and toucheth them onely not the whole Churche Thirdly bycause if it had bene so necessarie a thing Saincte Paule woulde not haue omitted it especially when he hadde an especiall cause to speake of it as he had when he spake of priuate examination of a mannes selfe 1. Cor. 11. Probet autem seipsum home c. Of the whiche wordes M. Caluin speaking in Cor. 11. Caluin his booke agaynst the Anabaptists sayth thus But what neede we so to dispute seing the Apostle himselfe in an other place treating of the manner howe euery man shoulde be prepared to the receyning of the Supper of the Lorde as it behoueth him doth not bidde euery one too examine the faultes of hys neighboure but speaketh after thys manner Probet seipsum bomo c. Lette a man examine himselfe and so let him eate of this breade and drynke of this cuppe for hee that cateth and drinketh vnworthily eateth and drinketh his owne damnation In whiche woordes there are two things to be obserued Firste that to communicat with those that are vnworthy is not to eate the bread of the Lorde vnworthyly Two things worthy the noting for those which shall communicate but not to prepare himselfe as he ought to do and not to expend and consider his owne faith and repentaunce The second that when the supper is to be receiued we begin not with other men to examine them but that we trie ourselues and surely if all things were exactly considered euen they which haue so much leysure to enquire
of other mens behauiour are for the most part negligent and forgetfull of their owne duties So that it is necessary for euery man to examine himselfe and not so necessary for one man to examine another But what I thinke of this kynde of examining by other I haue declared in my Answer to the Admonition Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. Then he saith he is sure there is neither commaundement nor example in all the scripture In A place of scripture fondly applyed the second booke of the Chronicles he might haue read that the Leuites were there commaunded 2. Chro. 35 to prepare the people vnto the receiuing of the passouer in place whereof we haue the Lords supper Now examination being a part of the preparation it followeth that there is commaundement of examination Io. Whitgifte You bewray the weakenesse of your cause to much when you are constrayned to The Replyer applyeth a ceremoniall precept to the receiuing of the communion runne so farre for a precept to proue the examination of communicants to be commaunded and especially when you are compelled for want of other to bring out ceremoniall precepts long ago abrogated This boldnes of yours is so by custome confirmed that now without blushing it dare abuse any scripture yea euen touching the Ceremonies of the law to proue any deuise of your owne and why may not the Papistes as well vse the same for their auricular confession But what if that commaundement signify no such thing from whence then will His precept proueth not his purpose you fetch your proofe the wordes of Iosiah to the Leuites in the. 2. Chro. 35. vers 6. be these So kill the passouer and sanctify your selues and prepare your brethren that they may do according to the word of the Lord by the hand of Moses What one word of examining other is there in this commaundement These words Prepare your brethren Looke the marginal note in the Geneua Bible c. are thus expounded by learned interpreters Exhort your brethren to examin thēselues that they may be ready to eate the passouer according to the word of the Lorde by the hand of Moses And manifest it is that neyther the Priests nor the Leuites dyd did euer vse any suche kinde of examination before the eating of the Passouer as you woulde insinuate and therfore as yet you are vtterly destitute of a commaundemente Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. And how holdeth (a) This is an ar ument of your owne framing this argument S. Paule commandeth that euery man should proue him self ergo there is no commaundement that the ministers shold proue and examine them so I may say that euery man is a spirituall king to gouerne himself therfore he may not be gouerned by others The authors of the Admonition do not meane that euery one should be examined as those whose vnderstanding in the Gospell is well knowne or whych doe examine themselues and so they interprete themselues in the. 108. page Io. Whitgifte Surely it holdeth as the moste parte of your argumentes do that is loosely for it is your reason it is not myne If I haue framed any such argument it will appeare in my Answere But this is your manner peuishly to peruert my wordes and therfore haue you concealed my booke least your Reader should espie you as he must needes do if he hath any iudgement Neyther doe I mislyke that there should be examination of the communicantes Examination of communicants 〈◊〉 disallowed as I haue said in my Answere but I mislyke this wrangling at the administratiō of the sacraments vsed in this church without cause neither would I haue this kinde of examination counted as necessarie seing it is no where cōmanded neither yet any example of it either in the Apostolicall or primitiue Church In what words or how do the Authors of the Admonition interpret themselues pag. 108 or how do they knowe that men do not examine themselues Chap. 1. the fifth Diuision Admonition The fifth Then they ministred with common (a) Act. 2. 46. Act. 20. 7. vsual bread now with water cakes brought in by Pope Alexander being in forme fashion and substance like their god of the altar Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 97. Sect. 2. Pag. 98. Sect. 1. 2. The place you alleage Act. 2. which is this And they continued Of bread vsed in the cōmumon dayly with one accord in the temple breaking bread at home did eate their meate together vvith gladnesse and singlenesse of heart maketh as much for your purpose as it maketh for the Papistes halfe Communion for they alleadge it to proue that the Supper may be ministred with bread only But learned interpreters especially M. Caluine denye this place to be mente of the ministration of the supper how soeuer it is vnderstanded it doth not necessarily proue that the Sacrament was then ministred in common and vsuall breade for there is no mention made of the kinde of breade Yf any thynke better of one kynde of breade than of an other in the ministration of the Sacramente it is theyr erroure and derogateth nothyng from the order of administration M. Caluin in his Institutions cap. 19. sect 72. touchyng this ma ter writeth on this sorte Caeterùm in manum accipiant fideles necne inter se diuidant an singuli quod sibi datum fuerit edant calicem in diaconi manu reponant an proximo tradant Caluins opinion of y e kind breade panis sit fermentatus an azymus vinum rubrum an album nihil refert haec indifferentia sunt in ecclesiae libertate posita But vvhether the faythfull take it in their handes or no vvhether they deuide it among them selues or euerye one eate that vvhiche is giuen vnto them vvhether they gyue the cuppe to the Deacon or deliuer it to hym that is nexte vvhether the breade be leauened or vnleuened the vvyne redde or vvhyte it makes no matter These be indifferente thyngs and put in the libertie of the Churche Alexander lyued Anno. III. and was a good and godlie Bishop it Alexanders institution is reported in some writers that he appoynted vnleauened breade to be vsed in the Euchariste bycause that Chryste hymselfe vsed the same accordyng to the lawe written Exod. 12. Deuteron 16. But that he broughte in wafer cakes or appoynted any certayne forme of breade you can not proue neyther dothe any credible authour wryte it Io. Whitgifte To all this there is not one word answered Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Answere to the Admonition Pag. 97. Sect. 2. Pag. 98. Sect. 1. The truth is that it skils not what kynde of bread is vsed leuened or vnleuened so it be bread although it were to be wished for the auoydyng of superstition that common and vsuall breade were vsed Usual bread and also that the forme were altered and the quantitie
Interrogatories were ministred to infantes at the time of their Baptisme and that they had sureties which we call godfathers that answered for them and in their name T. C. Pag. 134. Sect. 1. As for S. Augustines place although I can (*) not allow his reason that he maketh nor the proportion that is betweene the sacrament of the body and bloude of our Sauiour Christe and his body and bloude it selfe of one side and betwene the sacrament of Baptisme and fayth of the other side saying that as the sacrament of the body of Christe after a sorte is the body so the baptisme of the sacrament of fayth is after a sort fayth (a) whereas he should haue sayd that as the supper beyng the sacrament of the body of Christe is after a sorre the body of Christe so baptisme beyng a sacrament of the bloude of Christe is after a sorte the bloud of Christe For fayth is not the subiect of Baptisme as the body and bloude of Christ is the matter of the supper Yet I say that S. Augustine hath no one worde to approue this abuse of answering in the childes name and in his person but goeth about to establishe an other abuse which was that it was lawfull for those that presented the chylde to say that it beleeued so that it is lyke that the minister did aske those whiche presented the infant whither they thought that it was faythfull and did beleeue and those which presented it sayde it was so wherevpon this question rose whither it was lawfull to say that the chylde beleeued Io. Whitgifte I neuer hearde that any learned man as yet mislyked this place of Augustine but I knowe they haue vsed it as a moste manifest testimonie agaynst Transubstantiation and the Reall presence and as a true declaration wherefore the sacramentall breade and wyne be called the body and bloude of Christe beyng but the sacramentes of the bodie and bloude of Christe And nowe you with vnwashed handes not vnderstanding the place presume to giue a blinde and vnlearned censure vpon so worthie and learned a Father euen there where he speaketh moste soundly and learnedly But howe should your arrogancie else appeare The supper is a sacrament bothe of the body and bloud of Christe the breade of the body and the Rom. 4. wine of the bloude as S. Augustine there sayeth and Baptisme is truly called by him the Sacrament of fayth bycause it is Signaculum iustitiae fidei as Circumcision the figure of Baptisme was accordyng to the worde of the Apostle ad Rom. 4. and therefore in reprouing S. Augustine for callyng it the Sacrament of fayth you séeme to be ignorant of this place of the Apostle To this saying of Augustine doth that of Tertullian in his booke De Poenitentia very well agrée where he speakyng of Baptisme Tertull. sayeth Lauacrum illud obsignatio est Fidci That washyng is the sealyng of faythe And Chrysostome opere imp Homil. 5. in Matth. sayeth also that Baptisme is the seale of Chrysost. fayth neyther did euer any man before you mislike this kinde and phrase of speache that baptisme is the sacrament of fayth S. Augustines woordes be euident that there were questions in Baptisme moued in the name of the infant whiche coulde not be vnlesse there were also answering to the same Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Admonition Thyrdely they prophane holy Baptisme in toying foolishely for that they aske questions of an infante whiche can not answere and speake vnto them as was wonte to be spoken vnto men and vnto such as beyng conuerted answered for themselues and were Baptised Whiche is but a mockerie l Gal 6. 7. of God and therefore agaynst the holy Scriptures Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 192. Sect. 1. 2. To the thirde superstitious toy as you call it that is the questions demaunded of the Infant at the tyme of Baptisme I haue also answered Augustine alloweth questions to the infant out of S. Augustine in the firste parte where it may also appeare that this manner of questionyng was vsed in the Baptising of Infantes long before Augustines tyme for Dionysius Areopagita maketh mention of them in like manner To proue that this questioning with the infant is a mocking of God you quote Galat. 6. verse 7. Be not deceyued God is not mocked for vvhatsoeuer a man sovveth that shall he reape Paule in this place taketh away excuses which worldlinges vse to make for not nourishing theyr pastours for no feyned excuse will serue bycause God is not mocked But what is this to the questionyng with infantes howe followeth this God is not mocked Ergo he that questioneth with Infantes mocketh God Truely you mocke God when you so dally with his Scriptures and seeke rather the glorie of quoting of many places of Scripture than the true applying of any one T. C. Pag. 134. Sect. 2. In the. 191. and. 192. pages he speaketh of this agayne but he bothe nothing else but repeate in bothe places that whiche is here onely he sayeth that it is a mockyng of God to vse the place of the Galatians God is not mocked agaynst this abuse and his reason is bycause S. Paule speaketh there agaynst those that by feyned excuses seeke to defraude the Pastor of his liuyng as who shoulde saye S. Paule did not conclude that particular conclusion thou shalte not by friuolous excuses defraude the minister with this generall saying God is not mocked for his reason is God is not mocked at all or in any matter therefore he is not mocked in this or as who shoulde say bycause our Sauiour Christe saying that it is not lawfull to separate that whiche God hath ioyned speaking of diuorce it is not lawfull to vse this sentence beyng a generall rule in other thinges when as we knowe it is as well and properly vsed agaynst the Papistes which seuere the cup from the breade as agaynst the Iewes which put away their wiues for euery small and triflyng cause Io. Whitgifte In déede it is a very mocking of God thus to abuse the Scriptures for the Authours of the Admonition alleage this text to proue that to question with Infantes is to mocke God when there is not one worde in that place spoken of questioning with infantes and therefore this texte is alleaged without purpose except you will say that it is quoted onely for the Phrase and manner of speakyng It is true that God is not mocked but this proueth not that questioning in Baptisme is to mocke God and therefore vaynely it is applied Those which seuer the cuppe from the bread in the Lordes Supper do separate that which God hath coupled and therefore that text may well be alleaged agaynst them but suche as question in Baptisme in the name of those that are to be baptised do not mocke God and therefore that texte is in the Admonition altogither abused Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 134. Sect. vlt. And as for this
qui bene praesunt c. The Elders that rule well are worthie double honour specially they which labour in the worde and doctrine Where although S. Paule maketh a distinction of Seniors yet it is certayne that vnder the name of Seniors he doth comprehende such onely as be Ministers of the woorde or Sacramentes Tract 9. cap. 1. the. 15. diuisiō Tract 6. Cap. 1. And I haue before sufficiently proued that the administration of the Sacramentes may be committed to some to whome the preachyng of the woorde of God is not committed And this distinction of Ministers doth this place 1. Timot. 5. very well iustifie for vnlesse the Apostle S. Paule had ment that of Ministers some preached some onely ministred the Sacramentes he woulde not haue sayde Maximè qui laborant sermone doctrina onely but qui laborant sermone administratione Sacramentorum for so shoulde he playnely haue declared that there were some Presbyteri whiche did neyther labour in Preaching nor in the Administration of the Sacramentes This same distinction of ministers is also iustified by that whiche the Apostle speaketh 1. Corinth 1. Non misit me Christus vt Baptizarem c. Meaning 1. Cor. 1. bycause the worde was the greater therefore he might not leaue the greater for the lesse Nowe if all they that baptized had the gifte of preaching also why might not and ought not they in like manner to say Christe sent vs not to baptize but to preach S. Ambrose writing vpon these woordes Aduersus Presbyterum c. Agaynst an Ambrose 1. Tim. 5. Elder receyue no accusation c. Which immediately follow the other doth vnderstand thereby Ministers and Priestes onely for he calleth them Vicarios Christi Christes vicars and Antistites Dei Gods Prelates So doth M. Caluine in like manner expound Caluin in 1. Tim. 5. the same woorde of Pastors and Teachers I know that in the exposition of this sentence Qui bene praesunt presbyteri c. he maketh two kindes of Seniors but yet doth he Instit. Cap. 8. Sect. 52. where he purposely speaketh of Seniors say that they were all preachers Neyther do I sée any cause why this woorde Presbyter shoulde not in both these places be taken in one and the same signification Chrysostome also if Chrysost. his woordes be well marked vpon this place of Timoth. Presbyteri qui bene praesunt c. it will appeare that he doth not extende this woorde Presbyter to any other than to Ministers of the woorde and Sacramentes The woordes of Ierome be playne for expounding these woordes Maximè qui laborant Ierome c. He sayeth thus Non dixit omnium qui habent verbum sed qui laborant in verbo Caeterùm omnes habentes praecipit ordinare He sayeth not of all that haue the worde but that labour in the worde But he commaunded him to ordeyne all that haue the worde And surely I haue not read this woorde in any auncient Historie or Father commonly taken in any other signification Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Admonition In steade of Chancelours Archdeacons Officialls Commissaries Proctors Doctors summoners Churchwardens and such lyke you haue to place in euery congregation a lawfull and godly Seigniorie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 125. Sect. 1. But I pray you do thus much for me first proue that there was Certaine questions deman̄ded to be proued in euery cōgregation such as you call Seniors when you haue done that thē shew me that that office kind of regimēt ought to be perpetuall and not rather to be altered according to the state and condition of the Churche last of all that those Seniors were lay men as we call them and not rather ministers of the worde and Bishops When you haue satisfied my request in these three pointes then wil I proceede further in this matter T. C. Pag. 138. In the midst Now that it is knowne what these Seniors be in entreating of them I am contēt to answere M. Doctor three requestes which he maketh in the 125. page where he desireth that one would do so much for him as first to shewe that these Seniors were in euery congregation secondarily he will haue it proued that this regiment is perpetuall and not to be altered last of all he desireth to know whether these Seniors werelay men and not rather ministers of the worde and Bishops This last is a fonde request and such as is already answered but he muste be followed For the first therefore which is that there were Seniors in euery congregation although M. Doctor in the. 114. page in the. 132. page cōstrayned by Ambrose authoritie confesseth it in plaine wordes yet bycause he requireth it to be shewed and maketh a iest at those places which are alleaged out of the scripture to proue it some thing must be spoken thereof Io. Whitgifte You builde your platforme vpon marueylous slender proofes except the Reader will beleue your bare woordes he shal finde great scarcitie of any other argumentes For where haue you as yet proued your opinion of Seniors to be true The place of S. Paule 1. Tm. 5 doth not helpe you being otherwise taken expoūded of the aunciēt fathers but I will follow your rase The last question you say is fond already answered Answered as yet it is not and the fondnesse of it will appeare by the wisedome of your answere hereafter The woordes of Ambrose be that the Synagogue after the church had Seniors c. in 1. Tim. 5. but he sayeth not that euery seuerall congregation had Seniors for it was not so among the Iewes Therefore it cannot be gathered of Ambrose that euery particular parish had Seniors Neyther is there any auncient Author that affirmeth it Touching the hauing of Seniors in the Church why it was then conuenient and is not so now I haue declared in the Answere to the Admonition Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 138. Somevvhat past the midest The first place is in the Actes which is that Paule Barnabas did appoynt by election Elders Act. 14. in euery congregation but it is (*) A 〈◊〉 not like they did appoynt diuerse ministers or Bishops which preached in euery congregation which were not to be had for such a number of congregations as were then to be preached vnto therefore in euery congregation there were besides those that preached other Elders which did onely in gouernment assist the pastors which preached And what should we folow coniectures here when S. Paule doth in the place before alleaged declare 1. Tim. 9. what these elders are Io. Whitgifte If you haue no stronger place to cōfirme your Seniors by than this they will fall The place Actes 14. proueth nothing for Seniors flat to the ground For it is most certayne that Luke in this place by Presbyteros doth only meane Pastors and Preachers of the woorde as he doth also through the whole Actes
if I do not who hath taught you to speake vntruly my woordes I haue expressed lette the Reader consider of them and here also take a note of your truth and honestie Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. Afterwardes he sayeth that for so much as this place hath bene vsed to proue a Pastor or Bi hop in euery churche therefore it cannot be vsed to proue these Elders so that sayeth he there must needes be eyther a contradiction or else a falsification The place is rightly alleaged for both he one and the other and yet neyther contradiction to themselues nor falsification of the place but onely a miste before M. Doctors eyes which will not let him see a playne and euident truth which is the worde Elder is generall and comprehendeth both those Elders which teach and gouerne and those which gouerne onely as hath bene shewed out of S. Paule Io. Whitgifte If it had these two significations as I haue proued that it hath not yet that it is so taken in the. 14. of the Actes I cannot reade in any writer and I haue shewed M. Caluines and M. Brentius iudgements to the contrary whiche in any wise mans opinion are able to counteruayle your credite and bare deniall And surely in that place it cannot be taken but in one and the selfe same signification except you will say that the spirit of God speaketh ambiguously and vseth aequiuocations Which were to derogate much from the simplicitie and plainenesse of the Scriptures Wherefore the Authors of the Admonition in alleaging that text in some place to proue the election of Pastors and in some other place to proue the office of Seniors speake they know not what and dally with the Scriptures euen as you do in like manner when you take vpon you the defense of so manifest a contradiction Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 114. Sect. 1. In the. 1. Corin. 12. S. Paule sayeth that God hath ordeyned in the Go rnours in the church Church first Apostles then Prophetes thirdly teachers then them that do miracles after that the giftes of healing helpers gouernours diuersities of tongues here is not one worde of the office of Seniors neyther yet of their names for this worde gouernours teacheth vs that Christ hath ordeyned in his church some to beare rule gouerne but whether one in euery congregation or moe whether ministers of the worde or other whether Magistrates or Seniors it is not here expressed howsoeuer it is it maketh nothing for your purpose T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. And whereas M. Doctor sayth that the place of the Corinths may be vnderstanded of ciuill 1. Co. 12. Magistrates of preaching ministers of gouernours of the (*) A manif st vntruthe for there is no such thing affir ed. whole Churche and not of euery particular Churche and finally any thing rather than that whereof it is in dee e vnderstanded I say first that he still stumbleth at one stone whiche is that he can not put a difference betweene the Churche and common wealth and so betweene the Churche offycers whiche he there speaketh of and the offycers of the common wealth those whiche are cclesiasticall and those whiche are ciuill Then that he meaneth not the minister whiche preacheth it may appeare for that he had noted them before in the worde teachers and last of all he can not meane gouernour of the whole Church onlesse he shoulde meane Pope if he will say he meaneth an Archbishop which gouerneth a whole Prouince besides that it is a bolde speeche without all warrant I haue shewed before that the worde of God alloweth of no suche office and therefore it remayneth that it muste be vnderstanded of this office of Elders Io. Whitgifte Héere haue you manyfestly fals yed my booke and greatly abused me For I haue not these wordes of gouernours of the whole Church and not of euery particular Churche neyther any thing sounding that way the Reader hath my wordes before his eyes let him consider whether you haue reported them truely or no. Surely if there were nothing else your ofte leasings might sufficiently conuince your doctrine of méere vanitie and forgerie But to returne to your Replie First I can not put any suche difference betwixte the Churche and a Christian common wealth the Church officers and christian Magistrates that they may not be comprehended vnder this worde vsed in this place by the Apostle For I vtterly renounce that distinction inuented by Papistes and maynteyned by you whiche is that Christian The Papists opinion of christian Magistrates Magistrates doe gouerne not in the respect they be Christians but in the respecte they be men and that they gouerne Christians not in that they be Christians but in that they be men Whiche is to giue no more authoritie to a Christian Magistrate in the Church of Christ than to the great Turke I am fully persuaded therefore that there is no suche distinction betwixte the Churche of Christ and a Christian common wealthe as you and the Papistes dreame of And therefore there is no cause why th Apostl maye not in this place vnder this worde Gouernours comprehende as well ciuill Magistrates as ecclesiasticall The whiche notwithstanding I doe not determinately affirme as likewise I haue not done in myne Answere for I would be glad to learne and to heare some reason to the contrarie Master Gualter seemeth to auour this opinion for expounding this place he sayth He comprehendeth seuenthly Gualter in Cor. 12. in this order gouernours vnder whome are conteyned ciuill persons whiche in worldly matters dyd ayde all men and had the hearing of causes if any fell out amongst the Christians And a little after There is no neede of suche publikely nowe a dayes seeing there are christian Magistrats by whose authoritie all these thinges may be better prouided for Moreouer the Apostle may meane in that place Bishops or Pastors of whome he made no mention before For you will not haue the office of a Pastor of a Doctor confounded wherefore you forget your selfe in saying that in this worde teachers he meaneth the minister that teacheth that is the Pastor for of him I am sure you meane Last of all I haue no where sayde that he meaneth one gouernour of the whole Church neyther haue I written one worde tending to that ende but this I say agayne whether the Apostle meaneth one ruler in euery congregation or mo is not héere determined and I sée no cause as I haue sayde whye in this place of th Apostle thys word Gouernours may not eyther signifie the Christian Magistrates o Ecclesiasticall as Archbishops Bishops or whatsoeuer other by lawfull authoritie are appoynted in the Churche neyther is there any reason to be shewed why he shoulde rather meane your Seniors than any other Magistrates Sure I am that there be learned men whiche thinke that the Apostle in this worde dothe comprehende Ecclesiae
gubernatores tum ciuiles tum ecclesiastic s The gouernours of the Church as well ciuill as ecclesiasticall Howsoeuer it is the place béeing doubtful it can not esta blishe the office of your Seniors as perpetuall Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision Admonition In steade of these Seniors in r Rom. 1 8 euery Churche the Pope hath brought in and yet we maynteyne the Lordship of one man ouer sundry churches yea ouer many shyres Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 115. Sect. vlt. You alleage in the margent these words in the. 12. to the Rom. He that exhorteth let hym vvayte on exhortation he that distribute h let him do it vvith simplicitie he that ruleth vvith diligence he that shevveth mercy vvith cherefulnesse To proue that in steade of these Seniors in euery Churche the Pope hath brought in and we yet maynteyne the Lordship of one man ouer many Churches c. I know not how this geare hangeth togither or to what purpose you should alleage that place it neyther proueth that in euery Churche there was Elders neyther that in place of them the Pope hathe brought in the the Lordship of one man ouer many Churches T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 1. The same answere may be made vnto that which he sayth of the place to the Romanes where Cap. 12. speaking of the offices of the Church after that he had set foorth the office of the pastor and of the Doctor he addeth those other two offices of the Church wherof one was occupied in the gouernment onely the other in prouiding for the poore and helping the sicke And if besides the manyfest words of the Apostle in both these places I should adde the sentences of the writers vpon those places as M. Caluine M. Beza M. Martyr M. Bucer c. It should easily appeare what iust cause M. Doctor hath to say that it is to dally with the scriptures to make them a nose of waxe in alleaging of these to proue the Elders that al men might vnderstande what terrible outc ies he maketh as in this place so almost in al other when there is cause that he should lay his hande vpon his mouth Io. Whitgifte The like answere do I make to that place also that I made to y e former M. Caluine Caluine sayth that these words of the Apostle Qui pr est in diligentia he that ruleth with diligence may generally be extended ad praefecturas omne genus to all kind of rule or gouernment And M. Martyr vpon the same words sayth that he doubteth not multas fuisse in Martyr Beza ecclesia praefecturas that there were many gouernments in the Church M. Beza likewyse although he sayth that the Apostle in this worde vnderstandeth presbyteros yet he addeth qui ipsi interdū doctrinae verbo praeerant which also sometime dyd preach the word M. Bucer sayth playnely Est praeterea qui praeest qui pascendi regendi ecclesiā mun accepit Bucer Furthermore he doth rule whiche hathe receyued the office of feeding and gouerning the Church Wherby he must néedes vnderstand the Pastor not any vnpreaching Senior But what kinde of argument call you this he that ruleth must do it with diligence Ergo there must be Seniors in euery parish You should rather conclude thus therefore those to whome God hath committed any office of gouernment muste doe the same diligently and carefully So that although these learned mē do vnderstād this place of Seniors yet do they The place Rom. 12. is generall think y t it may also be vnderstāded of other magistrates gouernours therfore vpō their interpretatiōs you can not conclude any certentie of your Seniors And M. Beza séemeth by y e name of Seniors to vnderstād the ministers of the word that is Bishops pastors and there is no doubt but that y e Apostle in this place doth admonish al to be diligēt in their office that haue any kind of gouernmēt cōmitted vnto thē Wherfore you may not restraine this to any one particular kind of gouernmēt which y ◠Apostle hath generally spoken of al for that were in déede to dally with the scriptures to abuse them as the Papists do yea to make thē a nose of waxe as I haue sayd before Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2. This I am compelled to write not so muche to pro e that there were Seniors in euery Churche which is a thing confessed as to redeeme those places from M. Doctors false and corrupt interpretations for as for the proofe of Elders in euery congregation esides his confession I neede haue no more but his owne reason For he sayth that the office of these Elders in euery Church ▪ was in that tun wherin there were no christian Magistrates and when there was perfecution but in the Apostles times there was bothe persecution and no christiā Magistrates therfore in their time the office of these Elders was in euery congregation Io. Whitgifte If this be a good argument S. Paule ad Rom. 12. sayth he that uleth must doe it diligently Ergo euery particular congregation muste of necessitie be gouerned by Seniors Or this the Apostle 1. Cor. 12. sayth that God hath placed in his Churche gouernours Ergo euery parish must haue a Seigniorie Or this Paule and Barnabas in euery Churche ordeyned pastors therefore in euery Church there must be a company of Seniors to whome the whole gouernment of the parish is to be cōmitted If I say these be good sure argumēts then haue I corruptly interpreted those places But if these arguments be not sounde if they haue no sequele in them if they be agaynst the practise of the Church euer since it had christian Magistrates and long before especially for suche Elders as you meane if this kinde of gouernment in many reformed Churches be not thought conuenient if it spoyle the Christian Magistrate of the authoritie giuen vnto him by the worde of God and finally if it bring in confusion then haue I truely interpreted those places and according to my duetie and calling deliuered them from your corruptions But the truthe of this matter shall more euidently appeare in that whiche followeth That whiche I haue sayde of the béeing of Seniors in euery Churche I saye still neyther is that the questiō for I aske y ◠question of your Seniors not of Ministers whome I call Seniors neyther dyd I meane that in euery particular parish there was suche a Seigniorie but in euery chiefe Citie nor that it was at all tymes in persecution and where there was no Christian Magistrate but ometimes neyther that this kinde of gouernment muste be in suche times but that it may be And therefore you had done well if you had not béene so sparing of your proofes for all my graunte ¶ VVhether the gouernment by Seniors ought to be perpetuall Chap. 2. the first Diuision T. C. Pag. 139. Sect. 2. I come therefore to the seconde
standeth in such reprehensions priuate and open and excommunication as I haue before rehearsed Io. Whitgifte What M. Doctor was able to say more was vnknowne to you If he woulde alledge as vaine reasons as you do and spende paper in vttering his owne fansies without eyther scripture or other authorities as your vsuall manner is he would at the least haue séemed to say much as you do who indéede say nothing at all I say againe that there be in the Churche that is in the externall societie of the Tract 3 cap. 6 diuisi 2. 4. The Magistrate may better 〈◊〉 offenders thaÌ„ the Semors Gual 1. cor Church both Papists Atheists drunkards c. and your deniall of it I haue shewed before to be vaine I say surther that those and such like offenders may best be reformed by the ciuill Magistrate and by corporall punishment as for your Seniors they will not set a straw by them For as M. Gualter sayth They which cannot be brought into order by the authoritie of a lawfull magistrate and by lawes will much lesse suffer themselues to be punished by the commaundement of Seniors or of an Ecclesiasticall senate whome with all their solemnitie they will laugh to scorne Chap. 2. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 143. Sect. 4. vlt. Afterwarde he asketh what Seniors may be had in most of the parishe in Englande fit for that office he asketh the same question in the. 133. page wher he also addeth Pastors asking where may be gotten such Pastors as the authors of the Admonition require when as they require no other than those which the word of God requireth Well then if this be a good reason why there should be no Elders in any Church bycause fit men are not to be gotten in all parishes it followeth by M. Doctors reason that for asmuch as we haue not fit and able Pastors for euery Churche that therfore we ought to haue no able Pastor in any Church And if he will graunt that we ought to haue able Pastors in as many places as they may be gotten how can he denie that we should haue Elders in those Churches where fitte men maye be had Io. Whitgifte The question is necessarie and cannot be so shifted of But you are still like vnto Difference betweene the necessitie of Pastors and of Seniors your selfe The reason of hauing Pastors of hauing Seniors is nothing like For the office of a Pastor is perpetuall so is not the office of your Senior Pastors be necessarie in the Church of Christ as well for the administration of the sacraments as for the preaching of the word and other Ecelesiasticall functions so be not Seniors The office of a Pastor is not only described in the scriptures but commaunded also shew where the office of your Senior is so The office of a Pastor derogateth nothing from the authoritie of the Christian Magistrate but the office of your Seniors spoyleth him of the one halfe and in a manner of the whole as shall hereafter more plainly appeare Wherefore this may well be true that although suche Pastors as are to be wished cannot be prouided for euery place yet there must be suche as may be conueniently come by But the same is not true in Seniors being neyther necessary nor where a Chistian Magistrate is profitable but the contrary And these reasons will serue to denie that of Seniors which we grauÌ„t of Pastors séeing the office of a Pastor is commaunded as necessarie and perpetuall and not the office of a Senior Chap. 2. the. 15. Diuision T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 2. And I say further where we haue an expresse commaundement layd vpon vs to do a thing there all disputations must cease of hardnesse of impossibilitie of profyte or else of peace For first God hathe not commaunded any orders in his Churche whiche are impossible and if they seeme hard it must be remembred that the best and excellentest things are hardest and that there is nothing so hard which diligence and trauaile to bring it to passe will not ouercome whiche thing if it be proued true in worldly affayres the truth thereof will much more appeare in the matters perteyning vnto God considering that if God with his blessing do surmountè all the difficulties in worldly matters which are otherwise hard to be compassed he will in his owne matters and matters perteyning to his glory fill vp the valleys although they be neuer so low bring downe the hilies although they be neuer so high playne the ways be they neuer so rough so that he will make of a way not passable in the eyes of flesh a way tracked and easy to go in and to walke towardes that kingdome wherevnto he calleth vs. Io. Whitgifte These be but words of course to no purpose For firste you shoulde haue proued The office of 〈◊〉 no 〈◊〉 com that the office of your Seniors is commaunded which I vtterly denie Then should you haue declared that the same commaundement is perpetuall for many thinges are commaunded in the new testament which be not perpetnall as the washing of féete Iohn 13. to abstayne à sanguine suffocat Act. 15. to elect and choose wydowes to 〈◊〉 13. 〈◊〉 15. 〈◊〉 5. minister in the Churche 1. Timo. 5. and suche lyke So that you haue craftily passed ouer two principall poyntes and those whiche oughte to be the groundes of your cause Fyrste therefore I denye that thys office of Saeniors is commaunded any where in the new Testamente then I say that if it were commaunded yet is it but a tempor ill commaundement Those two pointes not being by you proued the words you vtter are but in vaine Chap. 2. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 144. Lin. 15. Besides that I answere wheresoeuer there is a Churche there are the riches of the spirite of God there is with knowledge discretion and wisedome and there are such as S. Paule calleth wise and can discerne and iudge And wee see that when men are called to a lawfull and profyt ble callyng and especially to a publike callyng God doth poure on his giftes of that person which is so called so plentyfully that he is as it were sodeynly made a newe man whych if he d ee in the wicked as Saule was there is no doubt but he will doe it in those which are with the testimonie 1. Sam. 10. of the church with experience of their former godlie behauiour chosen to such offices of weight So that there is not nor can not be any want to obey Gods commaundement and to establish the order in the Church which God hath appointed but our owne eyther negligence and slouthfulnes or fearfulnesse or ambition or some other leauen which we nourishe within our selues Io. Whitgifte This lacketh proose for sometymes the churche of God is where there is neyther good Pastor nor méete gouernour as in the tyme of Elias And though God somtymes bestow his gifts vpon y â—
beyond all mē in saucinesse neither bring they any thing with thē from home but a vayne intollerable contempt of all good men neyther can they abide to be corrected by any admonition of others M. Caluine speaking of the gouernment of the Church Instit. Cap. 8. Sect. 120. sayeth thus Scimus politiam pro varietate temporū recipere imo exigere varias mutationes VVe know that the pollicie of the Church doth receiue nay rather doth require diuerse alterations Caluine Beza M. Beza likewise Lib. confess Cap. 5. Sect. 17 is of the same minde touching the gouernmēt of the Churche There was another cause of the Ecclesiasticall assemblies that they might ordeyne canons of Ecclesiasticall discipline and that I may cōprehende many things in few wordes that they might appoynt ecclesiasticall policie for the diuerse circūstances of times places and persones For it is necessarie all thinges should be donne orderly in the house of God of the vvhich order there is one generall reason to be taken out of the worde of God but not one and the same forme agreable to all circūstances And Section 32. speaking of this Seigniorie he sheweth that it was necessarie in the Churche whilest there was no Christian magistrate For so he writeth But there Idem were Elders chosen by suffrages or at least by the approbation of the whole cōpanie as it is very euident out of Ambrose which complayneth that certayne men had transferred this authoritie to themselues and ut of Cyprian likewise by whom we may also vnderstand that the Bishop did rule ouer the colledge of Elders not that he should there reygne but that by their cōsent he might rule the Policie of the church especially for so much as at that time the Churches of Affrica were not helped of the Magistrate but were rather cruelly vexed of them And Sect. 35. speaking generally of the gouernment of the Churche he sayeth Neyther must we simply looke what was done of the Apostles in the Gouernment Idem of the church seyng there are most diuerse circumstances and therfore vvithout preposterous zeale all thinges canot in all places and times be called to one and the same forme but rather the end and inuariable purpose of them must be looked vnto and that manner and forme of doing things is to be chosen which doth directly tende therevnto This is the iudgement of these learned men neyther do I know any that thinketh the contrarie except such as make poste haste to that braunch of Anabaptisme Sixtly either we must admitte another forme now of gouerning the Church than 6. The iurisdietion of the christian magistrate implieth a chāge of the firste kinde of gouernment was in the Apostles time or els we must seclude the Christian magistrate from all authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters attribute no more to him therein than was attributed to Nero in the Apostles time for in those dayes there was no Christian Prince to gouerne the church But Christian Princes haue must haue y e chief care gouernment of the Church next vnder God Ergo the same forme of gouernment cannot be now nor ought to be that was in the Apostles time Thus it is euident that the grounde whereof T. C. hath buylded his whole booke is a false ground contrarie to the Scriptures the practise of the Church the opinions The grounde of the Replie of learned men and the lawfull and iust authoritie of christian Princes and therefore the building is ruinous and cannot stande ¶ Of certayne matters concerning discipline in the Churche Tract 18. Of Excommunication and in vvhom the execution thereof doth consist Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition Let vs come now to the third part which concerneth ecclesiasticall discipline the officers that haue to deale in this charge are chiefly three Ministers Preachers or Pastours of wheme before Seniors or Elders and Deacons Concerning Seniors not only their office but their name also is out of this English Church vtterly remoued Their office was to (q) Act. 14. 4. 1. Cor. 1 28. gouerne the churche with the reste of the Ministers to consulte to admonish to correcte and to order all things apperteyning to the state of the congregation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 112. Sect. 3. What Scripture haue you to proue that such Seniors as you meane Deacons had any thing to do in Ecclesiasticall discipline I thinke the only discipline that we haue in the whole new testamēt except you will make admonition exhortation a part of it is Excōmunication and the execution of that is only committed to the ministers of the worde Math. 16. Iohn 20. Examples hereof wee haue Onely 〈◊〉 misters may excōmunicate ▪ 1. Cor. 5. 1. Tim. 1. ad Titum 3. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 2. Now I returne back againe to excommunication which M. Doctor thinketh to be y e only discipline in the church but he should vnderstande that beside y ◠part of priuate discipline which is ordinarily daily to be exercised by euery one of y e pastors elders as admonition reprehension there are thre principal partes which are exercised of thē ioyntly together wherof the first is the election or choise the abdication or putting out of ecclesiastical officers The seconde is in excommunication of the stubborne or absolution of the repentant The thirde is the decision of all such matters as doe rise in the church either touching corrupt manners or peruerse doctrine Io. Whitgifte I speake of y e publike discipline of y e church not of priuate admonition reprehension which may be called by y e name of Discipline but neither are they properly nor vsually so called except you wil also say y e publike preaching reading of y e scriptures is discipline these be things annexed to discipline but vnproperly termed by y e name Wherin discipline cōsisteth of discipline Your partition of discipline into those three parts in my poore iudgemēt is very vnskilful for discipline cōsisteth in punishing correcting of vice neither yet is the deciding of controuersies in matters doubtfull properly called discipline for discipline is exercised in punishing correcting y e persons not decioing y e causes Wherfore I thinke you haue forgottē your self in steade of y e part haue deuided y e whole that is you haue made a diuision of gouernment wheras you tooke vpon you to deuide discipline which is but a part of ecclesiasticall pollicie or gouernment Reade the generall confession of y e Christian churches in Heluetia tell me what it differeth from any thing y e I haue said Call to your remēbrance that which your selfe Pag. 1. 4. li 9 haue spoken pag. 14. where you call other censures of the church but forerunners to excommunication but this is a contention only about words therfore inough is said of it Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 3. As touching the
authoritie came into this excommunication yet it followeth not that there were no other And howe often will you stumble at that which you do so sharpely reproue in others which is in making of argumentes of authoritie negatiuely And if you will not graunt this maner of reasoning in the Scripture in matters perteyning to the gouernment of the Church which are all comprehended in the scripture howe woulde you reason of a common storie whiche neyther can nor doth professe to speake all those things which fall into that matter which it wryteth of But what if so be it be proued that Ambrose did not this of his owne authoritie but by the authoritie also of others will you then confesse that he is commended of all those which wryte storyes for so doing and confesse that the vse and practise of the primitiue Church was farre from this that is now For proofe whereof I will giue you a place which Ambrose the best witnesse of this matter hath in one of his Epistles where Epist. 38. he sheweth that as soone as the murther which Theodosius had caused to be done at the Citie of Ambrose falsisyed Thessalonica was heard by by the Bishops of Fraunce came and there was holden a Synode where also Ambrose sayeth that his communicating with Theodosius coulde not absolue him for that as it may appeare the Bishoppes in that Synode had in excommunicating him ordeyned that he shoulde not be absolued vntill such time as he had done repentance whiche he did afterwarde Amb. li ▪ de obitu Theo. with confession of his fault before the Congregation and asking forgiuenesse of it So it appeareth that that which he did he did it by the sentence of the Synode and not of his owne authoritie alone Io. Whitgifte It is not to be read in any storie or other wryter that Ambrose euer sought to haue an Eldership in his Church for if he had so done it is not like but that he might haue obteyned it béeing of that credite and authoritie with the Emperour onely in speaking of the Eldership which consisteth of Priestes onely he sayeth that he cannot tell vpon what occasion it grewe out of vse c. but this is from the purpose Ambrose is commended for excommunicating Theodosius and ▪ for excommunicating him Ambrose excommunicateth alone alone as it may appeare in Theodorete lib. 5. cap. 18. and Sozomene lib. 7. cap 24. For if he had vsed the assistance of other the commendation of his courage and boldnesse had not béene so notorious and famous neyther is it like that the people durst ioyne with their Bishop in such an enterpryse agaynst theyr Emperour and if it had béene done by any councell of Byshops or Synode to what ende and purpose should Ambrose carrie away all the fame and commendation not one worde once mentioned in any storie of any other assistante vnto him in that action But what néede I vse these wordes séeing the historie reported both by Theodorete and Sozomene doe verie plainly testifie the same My argument is not negatiue from authoritie but affirmatiue for all storyes that I haue read do attribute this whole action of excommunicating Theodosius to Ambrose alone Reade the places of Theodoret and Sozomene before mentioned and you shall sée that a man may safely conclude affirmatiuely that Ambrose alone did both excommunicate and absolue him Some of the late wryters that haue occasion to speake of this matter do testifie the same as namely Master Gualter vpon the. 1. Cor. 5. and therefore reproueth Ambrose his fact But bicause you here charge me with so often reasoning from authoritie negatiuely name one vnto mée that I haue so vsed or tell mée why hitherto you haue onely espyed this Remember that you are a diuine of whom it is required to speake truly The Synode dso not excommunicate But say you what if it be proued that Ambrose did not this of his owne authoritie and I say what if it be manifestly layde before your eyes that you haue not rightly Theodosius collected of those places of Ambrose and that they make not for your purpose which you haue here alledged for your proofe First your quotation in the margent is false for Ambrose hath not one worde of that matter in his 38. Epistle but that might be the fault of the Printer That which he sayth is in his 28. Epistle the whiche also you haue falsified for there is not one worde spoken of any excommunication vsed by that Synode agaynst Theodosius onely Ambrose sayth that when the Synode heard of it euerie man lamented it and tooke it in euill part and that he himselfe could not admit him into his Communion nor absolue him from that offence without due repentance And that is his meaning when he sayth Non erat facti tui absolutio in Ambrosij communione Whiche also the wordes following and the scope of the whole Epistle doth declare For in that Epistle Ambrose doth exhorte Theodosius to repentance for that fact and after these wordes that I haue recyted followeth immediately this sentence The grieuousnesse also of the fault shoulde bee Amb. Epist. 28. layde vnto my charge the more if no man shoulde say that the reconciliation of our God were necessarie Art thou ashamed to do that O Emperour that the kingly Prophete Dauid did Whereby it is plaine that Ambrose in his letters signifieth vnto the Emperour that he must first repent him and be reconcyled vnto God before hée may admit him to communicate with him Neyther doth Ambrose say that these Bishops were by and by gathered togither as soone as this murther was heard of neyther was there any such cause of that Synode but they béeing gathered togither vpon other occasions and before the murther was committed as it will appeare if you marke the wordes of Ambrose well newes was brought vnto them of the murther whiche they greatly lamented as I sayde before There is not one worde it that Epistle whereof it can be gathered that eyther that Synode did excommunicate him or ordeyne that he should not be absolued vntill such tyme as he had done repentance how much betwere it for you to repeate the wordes of the Authour but then should you spill your grace in counterfeyting The seconde place of Ambrose lib de obitu Theodos. alledged to proue that Theodosius afterwarde confessed his fault before the congregation and asked forgiuenesse of it is more than néedes for that is not denyed of any man and Theodorete lib. 5. cap. 18. doth set that his submission and confession out in these wordes So in the ende Theod. li. 5. 18. Sainct Ambrose absolued him and the most faythfull Emperour beeing bolde to enter into the Churche prayed not standing or kneeling but lying prostrate vppon the grounde hee vttered these wordes of Dauid My soule cleaueth vnto the dust quicken mee according to thy worde And pulling his heare with his handes and beating his face and
denyed but that the Synodes mighte excommunicate and who will graunt that suche as be orderly and lawfully excommunicated by manie shoulde be absolued and reconciled onely by one and yet in that they desyre this at Cyprians hands alone it argueth that the manner was at that tyme for one man to absolue but Cyprian refused to doe it for that it was a common cause and they hadde bin Excommunicated by the common consente of the Cleargie In the thirde Epistle of his fyrste Booke I fynde nothing that maketh for you or against me wherfore you must take the paines to recite his wordes before you Lib. 1. epist. 3. can deserue any credite Thus whylest you would séeme to saye muche you doe but abuse the Reader and in the ende saye nothing perteining to the controuersie Chap. 1. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Pag. 149. Sect. vlt. In Augustines tyme it appeareth also that the consent of the Churche was required for in 3. Lib. contra epi. Parmen the thirde booke against the epistle of Parmenian he sheweth that if the multitude of the church be not in that fault for whyche one is to bee excommunicated that then it helpeth much to make the partie bothe afrayde and ashamed that hee bee excommunicated or anathematised as hee calleth it by all the churche and in his bookes de Bap. contra Donatistas in diuers places hee is so farre from permitting the excommunication to one man that he seemeth to fall into the other extremitie which is to make the estate of the churche to popular and the people to haue to greate a sway For there he sheweth that if the moste of the people be infected with the faulte whyche is to be punished by excommunication that then no excommunication oughte to bee attempted for (a) An vntruth bycause a sufficient number of voyces will not bee obteyned for the excommunication By which testimonies besydes the institution of God and the practise of the churches in the Apostles tymes appeareth manifestly what hath ben the vse of the churches touching excommunication as long as there was any puritie in the churche Io. Whitgifte Augustine in that third booke contra epistolam Parmeniani sayth that he would haue When excommunication should be vsed excōmunication then vsed when the vse therof can make no schisme in the churche that is when the cryme for the which a man is excommunicated is such as al men for the moste parte do abhorre and detest so that the offender can not haue so many Aug. lib. 3. contra episto Parm. fautours as are able to make a schisme in the church for then sayth S. Augustine may this discipline be executed without the breache of peace and vnitie and withoute the hurt of the people when the multitude of the congregation of the church is free from that crime that is excōmunicated For then the multitude helpe rather the Bishop reprouing than the wicked partie resisting than it profitably absteineth from his companie so that no man doth so muche as eate with him not for raging enuie but for brotherly correction and then also is the partie himselfe stricken with feare and healed through shame when as seeing himself accursed of the whole churche he can fynde no companions amongst the multitude with whom he might reioyce in his sinne and insult ouer good men Wherby it is euident that S. Augustine meaneth him to be excommunicated of the How y e whole church is said to excommunicate whole churche not whome the whole churche doth ex officio excommunicate but whose Excommunication the whole Churche dothe well lyke of whose facte the whole Churche dothe deteste and whose companie and fellowshippe the whole Churche doth auoyde and eschue Surely if a man marke the woords of Augustine diligently he may well perceyue that Sainct Augustine giueth Ius excommunicandi to the Bishop for else why shoulde he saye that when the people be frée from that cryme they rather helpe the Bishop correctyng than the wicked person resistyng But the discrete Reader may soone vnderstande howe farre Sainct Augustine is in this place from confirming your assertion S. Augustine wryteth seuen bookes De baptisme contra Donatistas and will you not vouchesafe to name one of them vnto me nor yet to recite his words that I might knowe wherevppon you ground this popular kinde of gouernment falsely ascribed vnto him it may be that Augustine in your vnderstandyng attributeth more to the people than he doth in déede and it is not vnlyke but that lacke of diligent reading hath driuen you into this iudgemente of him But I will giue you a medicine Howe Augustine is to bee vnderstode in ascribing binding and l syng to the people for this disease euen out of these bookes that you name In the sixte Booke and fourth Chapter he séemeth to giue authoritie to all Christian people to remit and to retayne synnes and these wordes of Chryst Si cui dimiseritis peccata dimittuntur ei c. To whom soeuer you forgiue sinnes they are forgiuen vnto him c. to be spoken to all Christians but he openeth his owne meaning and teacheth you howe to vnderstande all suche lyke kynde of speaches for thus he sayeth in the same Booke and chapter VVhen sinnes are remitted vnto him that is truely conuerted vnto God August lib. 6. contra Donatist cap. 4. they are remitted by those to whom he is ioyned by his true conuersion for the same holye spirite dothe forgiue them whiche is giuen to all Sainctes ioyned in loue among them selues whether they knowe one an other corporally or not lykewyse when any mannes synnes are reteyned they be reteyned of those from whome hee that hath his sinnes reteyned dothe separate himselfe by dissimilitude of lyfe and wickednesse of hearte whether they knowe him corporally or knowe hym not Here you may learne what Sainct Augustine meaneth by his popular state and howe hée is to be vnderstanded when he sayeth that eyther the whole Churche or the people do excommunicate or absolue I woulde you had noted vnto mée where I might fynde this saying of Sainte Augustine that if the moste of the people be infected with the faulte which is to be punished by excommunication that then no excommunication oughte to bee attempted for bicause a sufficient number of voyces will not be obteined for the excommunication For I promise you I can not as yet come to the sight of it in those bookes of S. Augustine by you named neyther can you tell me as I thynke where to fynde it but this is your vsuall maner and custome In déed in his thirde booke contra Epist ▪ Parmeniani and second chapt he hath a place August lib. 3. con p. Par men cap. 2. somethyng lyke to this of yours but it is from your purpose neither doth it tende to any suche ende as you alleadge it for the wordes be these Re vera si contagio peccandi multitudinem inuaserit diuinae
disciplinae seuera misericordia necessaria est nam consilia separationis inania sunt perniti sa atque sacrilega quia impia superba fiunt plus perturbant infirmos bonos quà m corrigunt animosos malos Verily if the contagion of synne hath infected the multitude the seuere mercie of godlie discipline is necessarie for the purpose of separation is both vaine pernicious and sacrilegious bicause they are bothe wicked and presumptuous and doe more trouble the good that be weake than correcte or amend the euill that be stubborne Sainct Augustine doth not here alleadge this for a cause that sufficiente voyces can not be obteyned for excommunication as you pretende but he thinketh Excommunication to be altogether in vayne where the infection is generall But that it maye further appeare the doctrine that I affirme touchyng the authoritie Ex mmunication by bishops proued by the practise of the primi churche of Bishops in excommunicating to be true and to haue bene the vsuall practise of the Churche in the beste tyme and state of it I thoughte good in thys place to adde to my former testimonyes and answeres the authoritie of certaine Councels wherin the practyse of the Churche doth euidentely shew it selfe And fyrst to begynne with the Canons attributed to the Apostles and so ofte alleadged by T. C. In the. 32. or as it is in some bookes the. 33. of those Canons it is thus decréed Can. Apost 32. If any Priest or Deacon bee excommunicated of his Bishop it maye not bee lawfull for any other to receiue him but only the partie that hath separated him except that Bishop dye whiche hath excommunicated him in this Canon power to excommunicate and also to absolue is in plaine wordes committed to the Bishop alone The fifte Canon of the Councell of Nice speaketh of this matter in these wordes Con. Nicae can 5. Concernyng those that are separated from the Communion be they Clearkes or lay menne by the Bishops whiche are in euerie prouince Lette the sentence stande according to the canon whych doth pronounce those that are eiected of some not to be admitted of other But lette it bee examined whether the parties be excommunicated through the indignation or contention or frowardnesse of the Bishop and for this cause that the examination may be duly had let there be in euerie Prouince a Synode celebrated twice in the yeare The wordes be manyfeste and what néede suche pr sion for to examine the dooings of the Bishoppe if hée hadde not authoritie to Excommunicate alone The sixte Canon of the Councell of Antic he is this If any man hath bene excommunicated Con. Anti ch Can. 6. of his owne Bishop lette him not bee receyued of any other before he bee absolued of his owne Bishop or shall defende himselfe in a Synode and the Synode beeing persuaded receyue an other sentence The same decree is to bee obserued agaynst laye men and Priests and Deacons and those that be in the number of the Cleargie Why shoulde the Councell saye ee that is excommunicated of his owne Bishop c. if the authoritie and power of excommunicatyng did not belong to the Bishop alone In the seconde Councell of Carthage Canon 8. it is lykewyse determined That Con. Carthag 2. can 8. if a Priest beyng excommunicated or punished by his owne Bishop shall presume to celebrate he shall be accurssed In the sixte Councell of Carthage Can. 10. the same is affirmed Con. Carthag 6. can 10. In the Councell holden at Sardica Can. 13. or as it is in s me ookes 16. it is in lyke manner decréed That if a De con or a Priest or any of the leargie be excommunicated Con. Sardic Can. 13. of his owne Bishop and shall flee to an other Bishop vnderstanding that he is excommunicated of his owne Bishop he may not giue vnto hym the communion dooyng therby iniurie to his brother and fellowe Bishop By all these Canons and auncient Councels it is euident that from time to time euen in the best and purest state of the church Bishops alone haue had authoritie to excommunicate And least T. C. shoulde here flée to his olde shifte and newly deuised distinction The Bishop did excommunicate alone not as rator of the action that this is attributed to the Bishop bycause he was the chiefe of the action and did moderate it and not bycause the authoritie and power of excommunicatyng remayned in him alone althoughe the manyfest woordes of the Councells ouer ▪ throwe it and it is not to be iustifyed by any learning or good authoritie yet that the Con. Sard. Reader may the better vnderstande the vanitie of it I will recite the. 14. Canon or can 14. as it is in some bookes the. 17. canon of this Councell of Sardica wherein it dothe plainly appeare that the Bishop alone did excommunicate The canon is this If there shall be founde a Bishop prone to anger which ought not to be in such a man and being soone moued against a Priest or a Deacon shall caste him out of the churche or excommunicate him it must be foreseene that he be nor rashly condemned and excommunicated therfore lette him that is cast out haue libertie to complain to the Metropolitane of the same Prouince if he be absent then to the next Bishop c. and that Bishop which hath iustly or vniustly secluded him must be contente to haue his doings examined and his sentence either confirmed or corrected c. What néed these affections be seared in the Bishop if he could not excōmunicate without the consent of a Seigniorie or of the people For the Seigniorie might wel inough withstand this his hastynesse Wherfore it is playne that the Bishop alone may excommunicate But yet to cutte off all further cauilling I woulde haue you to vnderstande that I doo not so giue the authoritie of Excommunicating to the Bishop alone The authoritie of excommunication ascrided to the Byshop not in nite but l ces or to any one manne that I thynke hée maye excommunicate when he lyste withoute iuste cause and due proofe of the same my meanyng is not to make hym bothe accuser aud Iudge I doe not thinke that he oughte to excommunicate any before the partie be orderly and lawfully conuicted of suche crime or crimes as are to be punished by that Censure And that you maye knowe that I affirme nothing herein but the verie same that Saincte Augustine hath affirmed before me The practise in Augustins time and to the intente the worlde maye sée that my opinion in this poynte is not straunge or voyde of sufficiente authoritie I will sette downe his woordes as I fynde them in his booke De vtilitate necessitate poenitentiae and reported of Beda in Augustinus To. 10. ho. 50. his Commentaries vpon the fyrste Corinth 5. Althoughe some thinges be true yet the iudge muste not beleeue them vnlesse they bee sufficiently
proued And wee can forbidde no man from the communion although thys prohibition be not mortall but medicinable excepte he eyther willingly confesse it or be accused and conuicted eyther in some secular or ecclesiasticall courte for who dare take vnto hymselfe to be both accuser and iudge And this is my iudgement of the authoritie of Bishops in excommunicating The abuses crept into this Church in the executing of it I doe not defende as it is manyfeste in my Answere but wishe them by due order and authoritie with spéede reformed Chap. 1. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Lin. 7. And it is to bee obserued here that bothe in this parte of the discipline and also in all other partes of it as I haue shewed as in harder and difficulter causes things were referred vnto the Synodes prouinciall nationall or general as the case required so if the elders of any Church shall determine any thing contrary to the word of God or inconueniently in any matter that falleth into their determination the parties which are greeued may haue recourse for remedie vnto the elders and Pastors of diuers Churches that is to say vnto Synods of Shires or dioceses or prouinces or nations of as great or of as small compasse as shall be thought conuentent by the Church according to the difficultie or waight of the matters which are in controuersie whyche meetings ought to be as often as can be conueniently not only for the decision of such difficulties which the seuerall presoyteries cannot so well iudge of but also to the end that common counsell might be taken for the best remedie of the vices or incommodities which eyther the Churches be in or in daunger to be in And as those things whiche cannot be decided by the eldership of the Churches are to be reserued vnto the knowledge of some Synode of a shire or diocese so those which for their hardnes cānot be there decided must be brought into the Synods of larger compasse as I haue shewed to haue bin done in the Apostles times and in the Churches which followed them long after Io. Whitgifte So shall there be turbarum contentionum satis much vnquietnesse for one or two busy Pastors suche as your schole can yelde good store of woulde inuent matter ynough The tumultuous and dis orderly order propounded by y e Replyer to trouble the whole Church and Pastors should then be compelled to be as much absent from their benefyces by reason of those Synods as they be now vpon other occasions Lord what a tumultuous Church would this be if this plat for me might take place In the meane while the Prince shoulde be a cyphar and onely wayte to vnderstand what kynde of Religion ceremonies and gouernment these Seigniories and their Synodes would prescribe vnto hir to mainteyne and defende for the must haue potestatem facti onely not Iuris she must take lawes she must giue none she must execute whatsoeuer it pleaseth master Pastors and their Seniors to commaund hir else wil they stirre vp the whole countrey against hir at the least she must be excommunicated me thinketh I see the very beginning of a newe Popedome Haue you shewed this cōfused order to haue bin in y e Apostles time or in y e primitiue Church T. C. ascribeth his owne deuise to the Apostles Where haue you shewed it or when will you proue it Synodes there were indéede and necessary it is that when occasion serueth they should be but your Seigniorie in euery Towne or parish vnder a Christian Prince neuer was neyther is it possible that without confusion it should be as I haue before declared But what audacitie is this to ascribe an order inuented by your selfe vpon the whiche scarse thrée of you do agrée if you were well examined and in the which your selfe or euer it were long would espie some thing to be altered vnto the Apostles Of Byshops Courts and their officers Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 1. These things standing in this sort al those courts of Byshops and Archbyshops must needes fall which were by Antichrist erected against this lawfull iurisdiction of eldership as the court of faculties and those which are holden by Chauncellours commissaries officialls and such like the describing of the corruptions whereof would require a whole booke of whiche I will note the principall heads and summes Io. Whitgifte And not these courts only but all the courts in England would be deuoured vp of your Seigniorie yea each the Princes regall authoritie as may appeare partly by that which is said before and partly by that which shall follow hereafter For what iurisdiction will not your Seigniorie vsurp what matters would it not presume to determine what degrée of person would it not tread vnder foote but let vs heare what you say of these courts Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 2. First for that they enter into an office which perteyneth not vnto them but to euery particular Church and especially to the eldership and gouernours of the Church and therfore although they should do nothing but that which were good lawfull and godly yet can they not approue their labours vnto men much lesse to God putting their sickle in another mans haruest For neyther by the truth of the word of God doth that apperteyne vnto them neyther by M. Doctors own iudgment if his yea were yea and his nay nay considering that he sayd before that this iurisdiction belongeth to the ministers And although it should perteyne vnto the Byshop as he is called to whome notwithstanding it doth not apperteyne yet were it not lawfull for him to translate thys office vnto another and to appoynt one to do it when he listeth no more than he can appoynt them to do his other offices of ministring as preaching the word and ministring the sacraments Io. Whitgifte Your seuerall gouernment by eldership in euery parish I vtterly reiect as neyther iustifiable by Gods worde nor any example of any churche at any tyme vnder a Christian prince in that maner and forme by you prescribed The courte of faculties medleth not with excommunications The courtes of Chauncellours c. haue many moe matters to deale withall than excommunication for that is but one parte of discipline that they vse or ought to vse only vpon an extremitie concerning the whiche discipline and the ministers therof I am of the selfe same same iudgement that I was before and my yea is yea Gualter in .1 ▪ Cor. 5. and my nay is naye And yet it I will tell you what I haue read since in M Gualters commentaries vpon the. 1. Cor. 5. If any would appoynt some kynde of separation or shuttyng out which should be executed by a lawfull magistrate and should rather be ciuill A kynde of ciuill excommunication than ecclesiasticall we will not be against them For the lawes of our cities also doo punish them with excommunication
which are very negligent in hearing sermons and in the vse of the Lords supper and furthermore whiche do offend the Church with their wicked life For such if they liue in the citie they are throwen out of the felowship of the wardes or companies so that they can buy and sell with no man neyther are they capable of any honoure or publike office But if they dwell in the countrey they are kept from the vse of the commō pastnres and woods And this way is most meete for vs let other cities and countries do that which they thinke to be most profitable for their people for so much as it is euident that the same forme of discipline cannot be appoynted and obserued in all places I wish the other remoued from those Courtes and this in the place of it But that Byshops may lawfully vse the true ecclesiasticall excommunication I haue proued before Denie it you as oft as you will you can shew no sound reason or ground of your deniall Chap. 2. the thirde Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. 3. And other thing is that in these courtes which they call spiritual they take the knowledge of matters which are eere ciuill thereby not only peruerting the order whiche God hath appointed in seuering the ciuil causes from y e ecclesiastical but (*) A manifest vntruth iustling also with the ciuill Magistrate and thrusting him from the iurisdiction which apperteyneth vnto him as the causes of the contracts of marriage of diuorces of willes and testaments with diuerse other such like things For although it apperteme to the Church and the gouernours thereof to shew out of the word of God which is a lawful contract or iust cause of diuorse and so foorth yet the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentences of all these do apperteine vnto the ciuill Magistrate Herevnto may be added that all their punishmentes almost are penalties of money whiche can by no meanes apperteyne to the Church but is a thing meerely ciuill Io. Whitgifte We giue to the ciuill magistrate authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes and we acknowledge Ecclesiasticall courts executed in the prin ces name all iurisdiction that any court in England hath or doth exercise be it ciuill or ecclesiasticall to be executed in hir maiesties name and righte and to come from hir as supreme gouernoure so farre are we off from iustling with hir or thrusting hir from the iurisdiction which perteyneth vnto hir neyther do we make any such distinction betwixt ciuill and ecclesiasticall causes as the Pope and you do And therfore we Who they are that iustle with the ciuill magistrate are not they that detract any thing from the ciuil magistrate but it is the Pope and you who both thrust him from the iurisdiction that by the law of God and all equitie he ought to haue in Ecclesiasticall matters God hath not so seuered ciuil causes from Ecclesiasticall but that one man may be iudge in them both and if it perteine to the Church to declare what is a lawfull contract which be the iust causes of diuorce by what reason can you proue that the iudiciall determination and definitiue sentence of those matters doth perteine to the ciuill magistrate only For is not he most méete to iudge in these causes which best vnderstandeth them but both this and that whiche followeth you speake without reason and therefore the custome of the Church and the lawes appoynted for the same now also receyued and confirmed by the ciuill magistrate with the consent of the whole Realme must be of greater force than your single words Chap. 2. the fourth Diuision T. C. Pag. 150. Sect. vlt. Thirdly as they handle matters which do not apperteyne vnto the Ecclesiastical iurisdiction so those which do apperteyne vnto the Church they do turne from their lawfull institution vnto other ends not sufferable which M. Doctor himselfe doth confesse in excommunicating for money c. Io. Whitgifte So I do indéede but it is the fault of the man not of the law Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 151. Sect. 1. Last of all they take vpon them those things which are neyther lawfull for ciuil nor ecclesiasticall iurisdiction nor simply for any man to do of which sort diuerse are reckened vp by the Abmonition and some confessed by M. Doctor I will not here speake of the vnfitnesse of those whiche are chiefe officers in these courtes that the most of thē are eyther Papists or bribers or drunkerds I know what I write or Epicures and suche as liue of benefices and Prebends in Englande and in Irelande doing nothing of those thinges whiche apperteyne vnto them and of other suche naughty persons which are not only not meete to be gouernours in the Churche but which in any reformed Church shoulde not be so much as of the Church I speake not of all I doubt not but there be some do that which they do of conscience and with minde to help forward the Churche whiche I trust will when the Lorde shall giue them more knowledge keepe themselues in theyr vocations and being men for their gifts apt and able eyther to serue the Churche or the common wealth in some other calling will rather occupy their gifts there than where they haue no ground to assure themselues that they do please God Io. Whitgifte For as much as you referre vs to the Admonition to know what these thinges be that Chancellours c. take vpō thē being lawful neyther for ciuil nor ecclesiasticall iurisdictiō I will also referre you to my Answer made to that part of the Admonition Your slaunderous and opprobrious speaches against the men hauing little to say A tast of the Repliers diuinitie against their offices they must take in good part vntill you come foorth namely to accuse them but I am sory that they being as you saye suche persons shall haue little occasion to be perswaded to amendment of life by you whome they sée as factious in religion as they are péeuish in condition as corrupt with affections as they be with bribes as deepe in spite and malice as they be in drunkennesse What diuinitie call you this thus to libell against men in authoritie whome you dare not accuse to their faces I defend them not if ther be any such nay I wish them seuerely punished but you vtter nothing lesse than the frutes of diuinitie and I woulde haue you come foorth to accuse them Touching their benefices and prebendes they will defend themselues by the examples of your adherentes whereof some haue shaken off the ministerie and yet kéepe their Prebends some misliking the state of this Church crying out of the Canon lawe the Court of faculties c. take notwithstanding all the benefyte thereby that they can some of them reteyning two some 4. c. and yet do full little duetie nay rase vp rather than plant But why do I fall into this vayne which I mislike in you I am
as it was in the beginning of the reygnes of Ezechias and Iosias and as ▪ it hath oftentimes bene must all be committed to them then also No godly Princes hauing godly Bishops and ministers of the Churche will alter or chaunge determine or appoynt any thing in matters of religion without their aduise and counsayle But how if there be dissention among them shall not the Prince determine the controuersies as Constantinus Theodosius and other godly Emperours did wherefore the méetnesse of the Priests and Bishops doth not take away any authoritie from godly Princes in matters of the Church The. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 155. Lin. 5. And this is not M. Doctor (*) It is nothing els as will appeare to shake hands with the Papistes For the Papistes would exempt their Priestes from the subiection and from the punishment of the ciuill magistrate which we do not And y e Papists would that whatsoeuer the cleargy doth determine that that sorthwith shoulde be holden for good and the Prince shoulde be foorthwith compelled to mayntayne and set forth that be it good or euill without further inquitie but we saye (a) Why then more than at eiher timess or hawe proue you this ▪ that if there be no lawfull ministerie to set good orders as in ruinous decayes and ouerthrowes of religion that then the Prince ought to do it and if when there is a lawfull ministerie it shall agree of any vnlawfull or vnmeete order that the Prince ought to stay that order and not to suffer it but to driue them to that whiche is lawfull and meete and if this be to shake handes with the papistes then M. Doctor is to blame whiche hath taught vs once or twise before that the appoynting of ceremonies of the churche belongeth vnto the churche And yet I knowe that there is one or two of the later writers that thinke otherwise but as I take no aduantage of their authoritie which thinke as I do so I ought not to be preiudiced by those that thinke otherwise But for so muche as we haue M. Doctor yet of this iudgement that the churche ceremonies shoulde be ordeyned by the church I will trauayle no further in this matter considering that the practise of this churche commonly is to referre these matters vnto the Ecclesiasticall persons onely this is the difference that where it is done now of one or a fewe wee desire that it may be done by others also who haue interest in that behalfe Io. Whitgifte The papistes confese that the prince may punish priest 5 Harding Yes in good sooth is it for M. Harding agaynst the Apologie confesseth that the Ciuill Magistrate may punishe with corporall punishment any estate or degrée of persons offending eyther agaynst the first or second table And Saunders sayeth lib. 2. That Bishops in that they be men be subiect to ciuill Magistrates and therefore in that Saunders li 2. poynt the Papistes graunt as much as you Concerning the determination of matters in religion I know not wherein you differ from them for though the Prince mislike your determination yet can he not him selfe conclude any thing onely he may compell you to go to it agayne and The Replier giueth to the Prince no more than potestatem facti take better holde but if it shall please you to go forewarde in your determination or if you cannot agrée among your selues I see not what authoritie you haue giuen to the Ciuill Magistrate to determine the matter but for ought that I can espie if you and your Seniors be disposed to be peeuishe eyther muste the Prince haue no Religion or els that which you shall appoynt vnto him for potestatem facti you giue him that is you make him your executioner but potestatem iuris you do as fully remoue from him as the papists do for he hath not as you say any authoritie to make orders or lawes in Ecclesiasticall matters Saunders sayeth and so say all the Papistes that he hath authoritatem promouendi Saunders religionem authoritie to promote religion but not constituendi to appoynte and therefore vndoubtedly I perceyue not wherein you differ in this Article from the Papistes In the chiefe poynt I am sure that you agree fully and flatly with them and vse their argumentes and none other that is in this that you take from the eiuill Magistrate omnem potestatem iuris in matters and causes Ecclesiasticall And what Scripture haue you to proue that the ciuill Magistrates authoritie The Replier vttreth strāge doctrine with out proofe yet woulde haue all proued by scripture is not as ample and as large in matters of religion when there is a lawfull ministerie as when there is an vnlawfull ministerie In deede when he hath the one he may the more safely vse their aduise and followe theyr counsell which he neyther may nor ought to do when he hath the other but his authoritie is all one ouer them bothe and surely I marueyle that you will vtter suche straunge assertions so peremptorily without any kinde of proofe For you that woulde haue all thinges proued by the Scriptures haue not in this wayghtie cause vsed one texte of Scripture but onely one borrowed of the Papistes and making directly agaynst you When I say that the Churche hath authoritie to appoynt Ceremonies I speake generally of all states of the Churche as well vnder persecution as vnder a Christian Magistrate not secluding but including the Christian Magistrate as the chiefe and principall gouernour of the Churche committed to him nexte vnder God for I do not speake of a Christian Magistrate as you and the Papistes woulde haue me to witte as of Iulius Cesar Alexander or Nero but I speake of him as one appoynted by God to gouerne not only in the common wealth but in the Churche also Yea I will go further with you I make no difference betwixte No suche difference betweene a christian common wealth the Church as is pretended a Christian common wealth and the Churche of Christe wonder you as muche at it as you will I haue shewed my reasons before and you haue not as yet vsed any to the contrarie wherefore if you thinke no otherwise of this cause than I haue in these woordes taught you the ciuill Magistrate shall be much more beholden vnto you than he is Certaynely I knowe not of any of the late wryters one or two excepted that are of your iudgement in this cause and were it not that the same is learnedly and fully handled almoste of all the late wryters and namely of suche as haue in our tongue notably and learnedly defended this truth of the Princes authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters agaynst the English Louanistes who haue especially sought to impeach the same I woulde in more ample manner haue prosecuted this cause But for as much as their bookes are in euery mans handes it shall be sufficient to referre the Reader to my Lorde
straight a foote in it with an vniuersall hazarde of their goods and lyues that we shall not escape vnlesse we repent speedily of our coldnesse and halting in religion and vnwillingnesse I will not say to hazarde to put our lyues in daunger but not to leese some of our wealth and honour for the obteyning of a through reformation of the Church and aduauncement of the glory of the Lorde Finally he would rather haue put vs in remembrance of the sermon which our sauiour Christ Luk. 13. maketh where he sheweth that those cities are not alwayes the greatest sinners or those whome God is most angry with which haue the heauiest iudgements executed vpon them but that therby the Lord calleth vs to repentance otherwise that we shall likewise perishe This had beene more fit for our estate to haue beene sayde than to haue after a sort (*) God roote out of you this malicious spirite which deliceth in slaunders insulted vpon the afflicted and daubed vp our eyes that we should not see our miserie and our nakednesse Io. Whitgifte I haue sayde truely that we are not bounde to their examples I doe not denie No Churche may chalenge to be a patern necessarie to be followed but that examples may be followed and one ought to followe an other in that which is good and conuenient But I haue shewed before that one Churche is not bound of necessitie in all things to followe an other onely the Church of Rome is so arrogant and proude as to chalenge that prerogatiue I haue great cause to expostulate with you for this your vnchristian vnbrotherly and most vniust handling of me For where or in what words doe I pinche at their reformation Wherein doe I vse any insultation vpon the afflicted and agaynst them is this to pinche at them or to insult agaynst them to wishe that touching religion they were in that state and condition that Englande is to wish that vnto them that they grone for themselues Surely fleshe and bloud will hardely suffer me to put vp this iniurie But I am taught patience I thanke God and the Lorde forgiue you roote out that roote of bitternesse that is so déepe in your heart Admonition And heere to ende we desire al to suppose that we haue not attempted this enterprise for vayne glory gayne preferment or any other worldly respect Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 139. Sect. 1. I would to God you were as free from vayne glory ambition and malice and other sinister affections as you would seeme to be but no indifferent man reading your booke will so thinke of you for besides the opprobrious and vnseemely termes you vse towardes your superiours your Admonition smelleth altogither of popularitie and vayne glory Admonition Neyther yet iudging our selues so exactly to haue set out the state of the Churche reformed as that nothing more could be added or a more perfect forme and order drawne for that were great presumption to arrogate so muche vnto our selues seeing that as we are but weake and simple soules so God hath raysed vp men of profounde iudgement and notable learning Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 139. Sect 3. And yet in the beginning of your booke you call it a true platforme of a Churche reformed and I dare saye you thinke it to be as perfect a forme of a Church as al the best learned godlyest men in the worlde could frame for it is well knowne that men of your disposition thinke commonly as well of them selues as they doe of Men thinke too well of themselues any man else and better too But we graunt vnto you that you are so farre from setting downe a perfect state of a Churche reformed that you maye rather be called confounders and deformers than buylders and reformers Admonition But therby to declare our good wils towards the setting forth of Gods glory and the building vp of his Church accounting this as it were but an entrance into further matter hoping that our God who hath in vs begon this good worke will not onely in time hereafter make vs strong and able to goe forwarde therein but also moue other vpon whome he hath bestowed greater measure of his giftes and graces to labour more thorowly and fully in the same Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 140. God graunt that you maye become buylders and not destroyers I thinke in deede you haue but begonne I knowe there is other Suspected opinions behinde opinions among you whiche be not yet commonly knowne and truely I doubt that you will neuer ende but from tyme to tyme coyne newe deuises to trouble the Church vntill you haue brought that heuy plague of God vpō vs which the like kind of mē through their schismes and heresies haue brought vpon all those places almost where any of the Apostles preached and where the Gospell Domesticall dissention for runner of destruction ▪ was first planted and commonly before ruine and destruction commeth inwarde discorde and domesticall dissention The Lorde make vs thankfull for the puritie of his Gospell that we by his mercy enioy the Lorde roote out schismes and factions from among vs and eyther conuerte or confounde the authors of them The Lorde of his singular goodnesse continue our gracious Queene Elizabeth vnto vs and giue vs faythfull and obedient hearts to his worde and to hir Maiestie Amen T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 1. In all the rest M. Doctor hath nothing but wordes of reproche agaynst the authors of the Admonition and calling styll as his maner is for more punishment for them which I will not bestowe the answere of Io. Whitgifte And to this ende haue I héere set my wordes downe that the Reader may vnderstande what wordes of reproche those be that you charge me with but seeing it will not please you to bestowe the answere of them I shall also be content to spare so muche labour Admonition Where as immediately after the last Parliament holden at Westminster begon in Anno. 1570. and ended Anno. 1571. the ministers of Gods holy worde and sacraments were called before hir Maiesties highe Commissioners and enforced to subscribe vnto the Articles if they would keepe their places and liuings and some for refusing to subscribe were vnbrotherly and vncharitably entreated and from their offices and places remoued May it please therfore this honorable and high Court of Parliament in consideration of the premises to take a view of suche causes as then dyd withholde and nowe dothe the foresayde Ministers from subscribing and consenting vnto those foresayde Articles by way of purgation to discharge themselues of all disobedience towards the Churche of God and their Soueraigne and by way of moste humble entreatie for the remouing away and vtter abolishing of all suche corruptions and abuses as withhelde them through which this long time brethren haue bin at vnnaturall warre and strife among them selues to the hinderance of the gospell to the ioy of the wicked and to the
149. Sect. 1. And what reason can you giue why you should not aswell all owe Scilicet the Communion booke of it by subscription as you say that you haue hitherto done by vsing of it in your ministerie Will you speake one thing and doe an other Will you not subscribe to that whiche you publikely vse and giue your consent vnto T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. The Admonition hath no such thing as M. Doctor chargeth the authors therof with that they dyd euer allow of the booke of seruice It sayth they bare with it and vsed it so farre as they might and therfore nowe when it came to the approuing of it by subscription they refused and there is no man which can not vnderstande that it is one thing to beate with a thing and an other to approue it and therfore to beare and to vse it so farre as might be may well agree with their refusall of subscription so that M. Doctors note is not worth the noting The Apostles did beare with the infirmitie of the Iewes addicted to the obseruation of the ceremoniall lawe yet they neuer allowed that infirmitie and they were so farre from approuing it by subscribing that they wrote agaynst it Io. Whitgifte They say they haue not only borne with it but vsed it also in their ministerie c. he that vseth a thing doth as much allowe of it by vsing as he could doe by subscribing But I will not contende with you about a matter of so small weight for neyther is their learning discretion or iudgement suche that the booke is better or worse for their allowing or disallowing of it They shew their natures bent to contention and vnreuerent estimation of the scriptures by abusing of them and that is all that can be gathered out of their booke The Apostles refused not to subscribe vnto such things as they permitted vnto the Iewes for a time neyther did they beare with any thing for their infirmitie agaynst the which they wrote If they haue done any such thing note the place Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 149. Sect. 1. If those persons by whome this booke was first authorised were studious of peace and of buylding vp of Christes Church as you say they were then you that seeke to deface it are disturbers of peace and destroyers of the Churche of Christ. They were singular learned men zelous in Gods religion blamelesse in life and Martyrs at their end for eyther al or the most part of them haue sealed this booke with their bloud But by the A note by the waye way this is to be noted that you confesse your selues to haue allowed that by vsing of it which you say is agaynst the worde of God T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. Those sayth M. Doctor which authorised this booke were studious of peace and of buylding of Christes Church therfore they that speake agaynst it which he calleth defacing are disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the Church So I will reason (*) Vnequal com parisons For in these poyntes they were not buylders vp of Christes church Gedeon was studious of peace and of building of the Church therefore they whyche spake agaynst the Ephod whyche he made were disturbers of the peace and destroyers of the church We speake agaynst Images in churches and consubstantiation in the sacraments such lyke which Luther beeing studious of peace and of the building of the church did holde and yet we are not therfore disturbers of peace or destroyers of the church Although they were excellent personages yet their knowledge was in part and although they brought many things to our light yet they beeing sent out in y e morning or euer the sunne of the Gospell was risen so hygh might ouersee many things which those that are not so sharpe of sight as they were may see for bicause that which they want in the sharpnesse of sight they haue by the benefite and clearnesse of the sunne and of the light They sealed not the booke of seruice with their bloud as M. Doctor sayth for some that suffered for the truth declared openly their misliking of certayne things in it and as for the other they could neuer dye for that booke more than for the Lyturgie vsed in the French church or at Geneua For they receyued not the sentence of condemnation bicause they approued that booke but bicause they improued the articles drawne out of the Masse booke And if they had dyed for that booke as in deede they dyed for the booke of God yet the authoritie of their martyrdome coulde not take away from vs this libertie that we haue to enquire of the cause of their death Iustine and Cyprian were godly Martyrs and yet a man may not say that they sealed their errours whiche they wrote wyth their bloud or wyth this glory of their martyrdome preiudice those which speake or write agaynst their errours for this is to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of God Io. Whitgifte These be the words of the Admonition they saye that the Authors of that booke were studious of peace and of the building vp of Christes Churche and therefore vpon their owne words and confession I grounde mine argument This peace that they were studious of and sought to maynteyne by collecting and authorising this booke was a godly peace sought to be maynteyned by godly meanes and therefore suche as shall deface that godly meanes wherby they procured peace can not de iudged otherwyse than disturbers of the same peace Gedeon by making the Ephod did not séeke peace but rather glory for he erected Gedeons Ephod it to be a monument of his victorie Gedeon erected the Ephod for an other ende and purpose than God did appoynt it the Ephod that Gedeon made was the cause of idolatrie Likewise Images are expresly forbidden in the word of God there is a direct cōmaundement agaynst them so is consubstātiation also But the booke of common prayer is framed according to the scriptures appoynted to the true worshipping of God most repugnant to all Idolatrie Idolatrous worshipping and therfore these similitudes exāples that you vse be nothing like it is neither like to Gedeons Ephod ▪ nor maynteineth Luthers Images or consubstantiation but ouerthroweth them all Their knowledge was in parte in that sense that the Apostle speaketh Ex parte The prayse of the makers of the booke enim cognoscimus ex parte prophetamus VVe knowe in part and we prophecie in part c. But if they be compared vnto men I thinke for learning zeale godlynesse sounde 1. Cor. 1 iudgemēt most of thē haue not bin ouermatched by any that hath folowed And surely their learning iudgement was singular But no maruell it is though you make so small account of me poore wretch when you so basely speake of them Undoubtedly in cōparison of your selues I thinke you contēne
by other councels as may appeare by the councell of Colen albeit otherwise Popishe And truly if there were nothing else but this consideration that the bringyng in of the readyng of Martyres liues into the churche and of the homilies of auncient wryters hath not onely by this meanes iustled with the Bible but also thrust it cleane out of the church or into a corner where it was not redde nor seene it ought to teache all men to beware of placing any wryting or worke of men in the church of God be they neuer so well learned as long as the world should endure Io. Whitgifte It is certayne that the decrée of the Councel of Laodicea can no more condemne the reading of Homilies in the Churche than it may the readyng of Prayers or Cathechismes or any other interpretation of the Scriptures The meaning of the Nothing ought to be read in the church vnder the name of Scriptures but the canonicall Councell is onely that nothing be redde in the Churche as Scripture or vnder the name of Scripture but that which is Canonicall And that doth euidently appeare in the. 47. Canon of the third Councell of Carthage which doth explane this Canon The woordes be these Item placuit vt praeter Scripturas Canonicas nihil in Ecclesia legatur sub nomine diuinarum scripturarum It is thought good that nothing be redde in the Church vnder the name of the scriptures of God but the Canonicall Scriptures It doth not therfore Con. Carth. 3. can 47. inhibite interpretations of the scripture and godly exhortations grounded vpon the same to be redde Concilium vasense as it is before declared appointeth Homilies Homilies appoynted to be redde to be redde when there is no Sermon by reason of some infirmitie or sickenesse in the minister which is a godly and profitable decrée neyther could it be the cause of any corruption I do not defend the reading of any thing in the Churche which is not grounded Nothing ought to be redde not grounded of the scriptures vpon the worde of God therefore the decrée of the Councell of Carthage or any such like doth nothing touch the cause that I defende and yet I know not in what sort or out of what storie these liues of Martyres were redde I like very well of the decrée of the councell of Colen for it inhibiteth the reading in the Churche of fabulous and barbarous stories of the liues of Sainctes whereby it is like that the booke called Legenda aurea is mente But what is this against godly Homilies that conteyne the true interpretation of the scriptures godly exhortation to good life sound proofes of true doctrine which is as far frō iustling the bible out of the church or into corners as is preaching And I muse that you can alleage this for a cause seing you thinke so slenderly of the reading of the Scriptures and will haue y e same giue place to your sermons Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Sect. 1. And if any man (*) You haue obiected that which you cannot answere obiect that by this meanes also is shut out of the church the forme of ordinarie Prayers to be sayde I saye the case is nothing lyke for when wee pray wee can not vse the wordes of the Scripture as they orderly lie in the text But for so much as the church prayeth for dyuers things necessarie for it the which are not conteined in one or two places of the scripture and that also there are some things which we haue need of wherof there is no expresse prayer in the scripture it is needfull that there be a forme of prayer drawne forthe out of the Scripture which the church may vse when it meeteth as the occasion of the tyme doth require which necessitie can not be by no meanes alleaged in the reading of Homelies or Apocrypha Whervpon appeareth that it is not so wel ordeyned in the church of Englande where both Homilies and Apocrypha are read especially when as diuers chapters of the books called Apocrypha are lifted vp so high that they are sometyme appoynted for extraordinarie lessons vpon feastes dayes wherein the greatest assemblies be made and some of the chapters of the canonicall Scripture as certain chapters of the Apocalyps quite lefte out and not redde at all Io. Whitgifte You haue made an obiection which you can not answere and against the which all these reasons that you haue before vsed do as much preuayle as they doe against reading of Homilies and whatsoeuer you can say for the one may likewise be said for the other For when we interprete the Scriptures when we teache or exhorte we can not vse onely the wordes of the scripture as they lye orderly in the texte but wee muste amplifye them displace them applie them to the matter we speake of entermingling them with our owne wordes and phrases For except you will graunt this to be lawfull as wel in exhorting and teaching as in publike preaching you must as I sayd before as well condemne Sermons as Homilies The Apocrypha that we reade in the Church haue bene so vsed of long tyme as Apocrypha redde in timèpaste in the churche it may appeare in that third councel of Carthage and 47. Canon where they be reckened among the Canonicall bookes of the Scripture They maye as well be read in the Church as counted portions of the olde and new Testament and forasmuch as there is nothing in them contrarie to the rest of the Scripture I sée no inconuenience but much commoditie that may come by the reading of them ¶ Of the name Priest giuen to the ministers of the gospell Chap. 3. The fyrst Diuision Admonition We speake not of the name of Prieste wherwith he defaceth the minister of Christe bicause the Priest that translated it would perhaps fame haue the minister of Christe to be ioyned wyth him seyng the office of priesthood is ended Christ being the last Priest that euer was To cai vs therfore Priests as touching our office is eyther to call backe againe the olde priesthoode of the law which is to denie Christ to be comen or else to keepe a memorie of the popishe priesthode of abhomination stil amongst vs. As for the fyrst it is by (d) Heb. 5. 1. 6. Heb. 9. 11. Chryst abolished and for the seconde it is of Antichrist and therfore we haue nothing to do with it Suche oughte to haue (e) Eze. 44. 10 Ierem. 23. Heb. 5. 4. no place in our Church neither are they ministers of Christ sente to preach his Gospell but Priests of the Pope to sacrifice for the quick and the dead that is to treade vnder their feet the bloud of Christ. Suche ought not to haue place amongst vs as the scriptures manifestly teache Besydes that we neuer reade in y e new Testament that this word Priest as touching office is vsed in y ◠good parte Answere to the
I would haue him vnderstand that we hold that the body must be honestly and comely buried and that it is meete that for that cause some reasonable number of those which be the friends and neighbours about should accompany the corps to the place of buriall we hold it also lawfull to lament the dead and if the dignitie of the person so require we thinke it not vnlawfull to vse some way about the buriall whereby that may appeare but yet so that there be a measure kept both in the weeping in the charges considering that where as immoderate eyther weeping or pompe was neuer no not in the time of the law allowed now in the time of the gospell all that is not lawfull whiche was permitted in the time of the law For vnto the people of God vnder the law weeping was by so much more permitted vnto them than vnto vs by how muche they had not so cleare a reuelation and playne sight of the resurrection as we haue whiche was the cause also why it was lawful for them to vse more cost in the embaulming of the dead therby to nourish and to help their hope touching the resurrection whereof we haue a greater pledge by the resurrection of our sauioure Christ than they had Io. Whitgifte Al this is néedelesse but that you are disposed to stretch out your volume Chap. 6. the. 2. Diuision Admonition The eleuenth They appoint a prescrip kind of serui e to bury the dead and that whiche is the duty of euery christian they tie alo e to the mini ter whereby rayer for the dead is maintayned and partly gathered out of some of the prayers where they pray that we with this our brother and all other departed in the true faythe of thy holy name may haue our perfect consummation and blisse both in body and soule We say nothing of the threefould peale bycause that it is rather licensed by iniunction than commaunded in the booke nor of their straunge mourning by changing their garments which if it be not hypocraticall yet it is superstitious and heatcrush bycause it is vsed only of custome nor of buriall Sermons whiche are put in pl ce of rentalls whereout spring many abuses and therefore in the best reformed Churches are remoued As for the superstitions vsed both in countrey and citie for the place of buriall which way they must lie how they mu t be fecched to Church the Minister meeting them at Church st le with surplesse with a company of greedy Clearks that a Crosse white or blacke must be set vpon the dead corps that breade must be giuen to the poore and offrings in buriall time vsed and cakes sent abroade to friends bycause these are rather vsed of custome and superstition than by the authoritie of the booke Small commaundement will serue for the accomplishing of such things But greate charge will hardly bring the least good thing to passe and therefore all is let alone and the people as blind and as ignorant as euer they were God be mercifull vnto vs. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 198. Sect. 1. It is true that we haue a prescript kind of seruice to bury the dead and that we appointe that office to the minister and what haue you in the whole scripture against this or whoeuer hath found fault with either of these two things I meane prescript seruice to bury the dead and the minister to execute that office but you alone or when was it euer heretofore reproued by any but euen by yourselues now of late T. C. Pag. 161. Lin. 5. Nowe for the things which the Admoni ion fyndeth fault with and thereof ingeth reason M. Doc er of his bare creditē without any reason or sc ipture or 〈◊〉 thing else 〈◊〉 them vnto 〈◊〉 and sayth they be good And this you shall marke to be M. Doctors simple shift through out his ooke that when he hath no coloure of scripture nor of reason no name nor title of Doctor then r make 〈◊〉 some thing ▪ he v rieth his affirmation by all the figures he c n as in saying 〈◊〉 that it is so and then in 〈◊〉 whether it be not so and after in asking whether there 〈◊〉 any 〈◊〉 man will thi ke hat it is not so s if he woulde make vs beleeue that he setteth vs diuers 〈◊〉 of mea es bycause he bringeth the same in diuers dishes For besides these reasons he hathe no reason either to pro e that it is meete to haue prescript forme of seruice for the dead or that the 〈◊〉 should be drawen to this charge Surely if the order be so good and conuenien it hathe met with a very barren trone whiche can saye nothing for it And although there be enough sayd by the Admonition yet bycause this bold and hardy peach is nough to leade the simpler a y and to make them thinke that M. Doctor hath a good cause therefore I will also say so thing of these rites of bur all Io. Whitgifte What one reason is there vsed in the Admonition what one word of scripture what authoriti of writer to improue a prescripte kinde of seruice to bury the dead and the minister to execute that office If there be any rehearse it if there be none why do you kéepe your old cu ome of speaking vntruly for as much therefore as they only say The dead b r d by the minister and with pra er in the 〈◊〉 Church it withoute proofe withoute reason without gr unde the thing being knowen so be good and godly and pra tised in the primitiue Church for we reade in Tertullian that the dead were wont to be buried by the ministers and with prayer and furthermore séeing it is established and allowed by the Church what shoulde I laboure by reason or authoritie to confirme that whiche cannot by any reason or authoritie be ouerthrowen Tertul. de Anima Wheresore I will only answer such bare assertions as M. Zuinglius answered An order receyued in the Church needeth no proof vntill by reason it be ouerthrowen Zuinglius ad ▪ Balt a. resp vpon the like occasiō one Balthasar an Anabaptist VVhilest you require scripture and reason you obtrude vnto other that whiche you oughte to performe your selues for you denie that this ought to be so shew therefore some expresse testimonie out of the scripture to confirme your opinion To this effect spea eth Zuinglius to Balthasar who without reason or scripture alleadged to the contrary required of Zuinglius the proofe of those thinges whiche without controle ent of any but Heretikes had continued in the Churche of long time and then also allowed in the time of the Gospell Euen so the receiued order established by this Church carieth with it authoritie and credite sufficient and néedeth not to be further by reason confirmed except it be first by reason ouerthrowen which bycause it is not per ourmed by the Admonition my affirmation is sufficient
realme for moste iuste consideration euen for the better gouernment of the Colledge beyng otherwise full of youth haue licensed beyng in the number of the twelue preachers chosen according to statute to continue in theyr felowships with one liuing besides to a certayne valewe If there were the like prouision in other places and the same furnished with such kinde of men the state of diuers Colledges in Cambridge would not be so tumultuous as it is Touching the parties themselues agaynst whom you so bitterly whette your The fello defended agaynst the poysoned tongue tongue vpon the same causes and quarrels you do agaynst me this I will speake vnfeynedly as I shall answere before God and the worlde they are sober honest wyse quiet men faythfull and learned preachers and that tyme of absence which is giuen vnto them by statute they do carefully bestowe in their cures and other places where there is néede according to their duetie and conscience except the necessarie gouernment of the Colledge and publike vtilitie do constrayne them to the contrarie The worste of them and he that is moste negligent dothe more good in the Churche and common wealth than you do or any of your adherentes I will not speake all that I might iustly least I shoulde seeme to flatter and in parte to commende my selfe but this is the summe none of vs refuse triall eyther of lyfe gouernment learning liuing or what soeuer is to be requyred in the ministers of God and dutifull subiectes towardes theyr Prince It is an egregious slaunder when you say they be pernicious examples of riotous feastinges c. I know the contrary and thinke not you but God will take due punishment of this your notorious malice vttered vpon priuate quarrell as it is well knowne to al this societie In déede they loue one an other agree among themselues obey lawes kéepe order labour to suppresse Schismes and this is that that whetteth your tongue and the tongues of other disordered persons agaynst them I could requite all these your harde speaches if I were disposed to deale so maliciously But I will temper my selfe desiring God not to impute these things vnto you the Reader I shall desire eyther to iudge the beste or to suspende his iudgement vntill he haue the triall The. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 225. Sect. 2. 3. You say all these come from the Pope c. It is not materiall frō whence they come so they be good profitable necessarie for the mainteyning of religion learning wise learned men but I pray you from what Pope came they or in what time did the Pope inuent them I tolde you before that such places and Colledges were in Augustines Deane allowed by S. Augustine time that he both hath the name of M. Deane and alloweth of his office If you had redde any auncient learned Authors as your writings declare you haue not then shoulde you finde that Collegiate churches be of great antiquitie euen since the yeare of our Lord. 235. But what can you speake agaynst Cathedrall churches which you may not as well speake agaynst the Colledges in the vniuersities They were not in the Apostles time neyther yet in the primitiue Barbarisme and confusion secretely intended Church must they therefore now be dissolued your meaning is belike to bring all to confusion and barbarisme You say no reformed church in the worlde knoweth them wherein I thinke you speake more than you know Can you name any reformed church that hath plucked them downe Peraduenture in diuers places where the gospell is now preached they had neuer such rewards for learning But what haue we to do in such cases with other reformed churches we haue to consider what is most meete for this church and state not to follow other as though we were children I see no cause why other reformed churches should not rather follow vs than we them seing in no respect we be inferiour to them Well to conclude your wordes be but vaine and your proofes none at all and therfore I doubt not but Cathedrall churches shall be able to withstande both your opprobrious speaches the greedinesse of all their aduersaries so long as it shall please God to blesse this land with so vertuous learned a Queene so wise and discrete counsellours T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2. And where he sayth it is not materiall although these Deanes Uycedeanes Canons Petycanons prebēdaries c. come from y e Pope it is as if he should say that it skilleth not although they come out of y e bottomlesse pitte For whatsoeuer cōmeth from the Pope which is Antichrist commeth first from the Deuill and where he addeth this condition if it be good c. in deede if of the egges of a Cokatrice can be made holesome meate to feede with or of a spiders webbe any cloth to couer withall then also may the things that come from the Pope the Deuill be good profitable and necessary vnto the church And where he sayth that Collegiate churches are of great annciēcie he proueth not the aunciencie of the Cathedrall churches onlesse he proue that cathedrall and collegiate be all one But I will not sticke with him in so small a matter and if our controuersie were of the names of these churches not of the matter I could be content to graunt his cause in this point as good as antiquitie without y e word of god which is nothing but rottēnesse could make it Io. Whitgifte This Replie neither answereth directly nor truly to any thing y t I haue set down Tract 7. For first it is vntrue that all things cōming frō an Antichristian Pope cōmeth first frō y e Deuill I haue sufficiently proued y e contrary in that portion where I speake of Good thinges may come from euill mē apparel of ministers an euill man may do some thing that is good euen as a good mā may do some thing that is euill as God doth worke y e good by y e one so doth the Deuill worke y e euill by the other Ethnikes haue made good lawes they haue appointed stipendes rewards for learning such other like good things which are profitable not to be reiected for the Authors sakes though they were members of Satan Secondly it is vntrue that Cathedrall Churches came from the Antichristian Cathe ll churches before the Antichristi l Popes The 〈◊〉 answereth not that which is demaunded Pope for I tolde you that they were in the yeare of our Lorde 235. at what tyme the Bishops of Rome were godly men and Martyres Thirdly you haue not answered my question for I demaunded from what Pope they came or in what time they were firste inuented And to this you say not one worde wherfore in effect you haue answered nothing If they be of so late a fundatiō it must néedes appeare who was the firste inuentor of them but if
their ministerie and those thyngs whych the worde of God doth necessarily put vpon them least the strength of theyr mynde and of theyr body beeyng distracted vnto many things they shoulde be the lesse able to accomplishe their ministerie vnto the full Which may also partly appeare by that whych I haue alleaged out of Cyprian whyche wyll not permit them so much as to be executors of a Testament And in the. 80. Canon of those which are ascribed vnto the Apostles it is enioyned that they should not entangle themselues with worldly offices but attende vpon their ecclesiasticall affayres Io. Whitgifte If you compare the state of the Churche before the time of Christian Kings with the state of it vnder Christian Kings you make an vnequall comparison For howe coulde ecclesiasticall persons enioy any ciuill function when there was no ciuil Magistrate christian to commit the same vnto them How could by this meanes the gouernment of the Church be thought to be helped by the Ciuill Magistrate when as it had no greater enimies than ciuill Magistrates who sought by all meanes to suppresse and destroy it but nowe to your reasons To yprians authoritie I haue answered before The Canons of the Apostles haue nowe béene alleaged by you at the least 4. or 5. times and yet is not their credite and authoritie so firme But that Canon meaneth onely suche worldely causes as be impedimentes to their vocation and I haue tolde you often that ciuill functions be necessarie helpes to the dooing and ful accomplishing of their ecclesiasticall office I haue expressed in my Answere to the Admonition what worldly affayres a minister of the word may not intangle him selfe with Chap. seconde the. 8. diuision T. C. Pag. 168. Sect. vlt. Further in the * councell of Calcedon it was decreed that none of the clearkes cleargie Tom. 1. can 3. as it termeth them should receyue any charge of those which are vnder age vnlesse they were such as the lawes dyd necessarily cast vpon him which it calleth inexcusable charges meaning by all likelihoode the wardship of his brothers children or some such thing Where is also declared the cause of that decree to haue bin for that there were certayne ministers which were Stewards to noble men And 〈◊〉 the. 7. canon of the same councell it is decreed that none of the cleargy shoulde eyther goe to warfare as souldiours or captaynes or should receyue any secular honors and if they dyd they should be excommunicated or accursed Io. Whitgifte The words of the thirde Canon be these Relation is made vnto this holy Synode Con. Calced can 3. that certayn amongst the cleargie for filthie lucers sake hyer other mens possessions take vpon them the causes of secular businesse and through slouthfulnesse separate themselues frō diuine functions and runne to the houses of secular persons for couetousnesse take vpon thē the gouernment of their substance therfore this holy vniuersall great Synode hath decreed that none of these hereafter that is Bishop or Clearke or Monke shall hyer possessions or intermeddle with secular possessions except those that by lawe are dryuen to take the tuition and care of suche as be vnder age or those to whome the Bishop of the Citie hathe committed the gouernment of ecclesiasticall things and of Orphanes and widowes which are without succour or of such persons which neede the helpe of the Church for the feare of God c. This Canon conteyneth nothing contrarie to my assertion the words of the Canon be playne I shall not néede to vse any exposition of it Onely I would haue the Reader marke the weight of your argument which is this The Councell of Chalcedon sayeth that Clerkes may not for filthy lucres sake hyre other mennes possessions or take vpon them for couetousnesse sake the gouernment of other mennes possessions c. therefore there may be no ciuill office committed vnto them I will aske no better cōmentaries to the Canon of the Apostles before alledged or any other suche like than this very Canon of the Councell of Chalcedon To what purpose do you alledge the. 7. Canon of that Councell did you euer heare me say that I would haue a minister to be a Souldier or a captaine in warre or enioy any such secular honor or offices wherefore you lacke probation when you are constrayned to vse this ¶ The reasons vsed in the Answere iustified Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Lin. 4. Sect. 1. 2. Now I come to M. Doctors arguments which he bringeth to establish this disorder And first he sayth ministers of the worde may not occupie themselues in worldly businesse as to be marchants husbandmen craftes men and such like but they may exercise ciuil offices Wher first of all I perceyue M. Doctor is of this mynde that the order of God is not to be broken for small gayne or when a man must take great toyle of the bodie to breake it but if it may be broken with getting of honor and doing of those things which may be done without toyle and with great commendation then it is lawfull to breake it In deede so the Poet but in the person of an vniust and ambitious man sayde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is If a man muste do vniustiy he must do it to beare rule Secondarily I do see that M. Doctor will not be shackled and hindred from his ministerie by a payre of yron fetters but if he can get a payre of golden fetters he is contented to be hampered and entangled from doing the office of ministerie committed vnto him For vnlesse these should be the causes which should moue him to take the one and refuse the other verily I see none Io. Whitgifte This is to deride not to answere M Bucer writing vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. Bucer rehearsing such worldly businesse as withdrawe the minister from his function and therefore be not meete for him to exercise sayth thus Such businesse as warfare market affayres marchandise hucksters craft the ouersight of Innes Tauerns and bathes to exercise vnliberall craftes as to digge mettals and stones to burne lyme to carie sande to be schauengers and such like You haue not yet proued that Gods order is broken if the ciuill offices which I speake of be committed to Ecclesiasticall persons Your iesting tauntes I leaue to those that professe that cunning Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 169. Sect. 2. For whereas he sayth it is a helpe and maynteyneth religion in deede that is the reason of the Lib. 4. cap. 11. Papistes which M. Caluin confuteth in his institution And although it be good and necessary to punish vice and iniquitie by corporall punishmentes and by ciuill corrections yet it doth no more followe that that should be done by the ministers than it followeth that for that preachyng and ministring the Sacramentes and excommunication are good and necessarie therfore the same is fitte to be executed
T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 2. As for Elias killing the false Prophetes and our Sauiour Christs whippyng out of the temple it is straunge that M. Doctor will alledge them as thinges to be followed when he may as well teach that we may call for fire from heauen as Elias did and beyng demaunded answere nothyng as our Sauiour did as to followe these actions whiche are moste singular and extraordinarie And if these one or two examples be enough to breake the order that God hath sette by this a man may proue that the mynisters may be fishers and tente makers bycause Peter and Paule beyng ministers did fishe and make tents And truely these are not so extraordinary and from the generall rule as the other be And it was permitted in a Councell that rather than a minister should haue two benefices he might labour with his handes to supply his wante Tom. 〈◊〉 Nic 〈◊〉 1 withall Io. Whitgifte Yet by these examples especially by the examples of Christ it may appeare that Ecclesiasticall persons haue vsed corporall punishments which you call ciuill I knowe examples make no rule and therfore al your argumentes out of the scriptures alleadged before to proue that the election of ministers ought to be popular receyue the same answere that you giue to me in this place and yet examples if they be not agaynst any commaundement or good order established declare what hath bene and what vppon the lyke occasions may be done but not what of necessitie ought to be doone If you can proue any order of God sette downe that an Ecclesiasticall person may by no meanes exercise any ciuill offices I yelde vnto you if you can not do it then do I alledge no examples tending to the breakyng of any order that God hath set I knowe not why the ministers of the Gospell may not do as Peter Paule did vpon the lyke occasion And therfore your alledging of y e corrupt Councel of Nice which not withstanding you haue not 〈◊〉 alleaged is not necess ie I haue spoken of that Canon before and therfore will not trouble the Reader with it nowe being from this purpose Chap. 3. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 2. 3. When Sainct Paule willed Tim. that he shoulde not receyue an accusation agaynst an elder vnder two or three witnesses he did committe nothing lesse than any ciuill office vnto him And M. Doctor himselfe hathe alleadged it before as a thing incident to the office of a Byshop and therefore he doth forget himselfe maruellously now that maketh this a ciuill office And doth M. Doctor thinke that S. Paule made magistrates Or is he of that iudgemente that the Church in the time of persecution may make ciuill officers But it is true that he that is once ouer the shoes sticketh not to runne ouer his bootes Io. Whitgifte I alleadged it before to proue the superioritie of Bishops ouer other ministers The iur tion of Timothie in some respect ciuill Now I do alledge it to proue that the same byshops may exercise that iurisdiction which you call ciuill for in that the iudgement of such causes were committed vnto him it argueth his superioritie in that there is named accusers and witnesses it declareth a kind of eiuil iurisdiction to the which those words do perteine So that Timothie being an ecclesiastical person had prescribed vnto him that kind of proceeding to iudgement that may be called ciuill Chap. 3. the. 12. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Page 218. Sect. 1. It pleaseth you to say that it is against Gods worde for Byshops to haue prisons but your margent is very barren of proofes for you haue not quoted one place of scripture to proue it onely you say that Popish Eugenius did first bring them in whiche is a very slender argument to proue them to be against the word of God Did not Peter punish Ananias and Saphira very streightly for their dissimulation Surely farre more greeuously than if he had put them in prison and yet their offence was not against any ordinarie law made in the Churche or common weale But where reade you that Eugenius did first inuent them T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. vlt. And last of all to proue that byshops may haue prisons he citeth Peter which punished Ananias and Saphira with death M. Doctor muste vnderstande that thys was 〈◊〉 power and was done by vertue of that function whyche Sayncte Paule calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Cor. 12. whiche is one of those functions that the Lorde placeth in hys Churche for a tyme. But is thys a good argumente Bycause Saincte Peter punished with the worde therfore the minister may punishe with the sword And bicause Sainct Peter didde so once therfore the Bishop may doe so alwaye And bycause Sainct Peter did that whiche appertayneth to no ciuill magistrate ▪ and whyche no ciuill magistrate by any meanes maye or can doe therfore the minister maye doe that whyche apperteyneth vnto the Ciuill magistrate For if there hadde bin a ciuill magistrate the same coulde not haue punished this faulte of dissimulation whiche was not knowne nor declared it selfe by anye outewarde action So that if this example proue any thing it proueth that the minister may doe that no man may doe but the Lorde onely whyche is to punishe faultes that are hidde and vnknowne If this bee ignorance it is very grosse and if it be against knowledge it is more daungerous I haue determined with my selfe to leaue vnto M. Doctor his outcryes and declamations and if I shoulde haue vsed them as often as he giueth occasion there woulde be no ende of writing The Lorde giue M. Doctor eyther better knowledge or better conscience Io. Whitgifte I vse this example of Peter to shewe that is not agaynst Gods worde for the ministers Ministers may vse temporall punishment of the Gospell to punishe any by imprisonmente For Peter béeing a minister of the Gospell dyd punyshe with death whiche is muche more than to imprison and as Peter did this lawfully by an extraordinarie power so maye the ministers of the woorde punishe by imprisonmente whiche is a farre lesse kynde of punishment beyng lawfully therevnto authorised by the ciuill Magistrate accordyng to the orders of the common wealth and state of the Churche Therfore my reason is this Peter punished with temporall punishement being a minister of the worde and he dyd nothing repugnant to his vocation therfore it is not repugnant to the office of a minister of the worde to punishe with temporall punishment Agayne Peter punished with death therfore the minister maye punishe with imprisonment I speake de facto of the deede done not de modo of the maner of doing is And I doubte not but that séeing it was lawfull for Peter to kill by an especiall and extraordinarie power so it may be lawfull for the minister of the word to imprison by an vsuall and ordinarie power And so are all your
Collections made in vaine and framed according to your owne pleasure not so my meaning If you haue done it of ignorance you are to be excused if of set purpose you are to be blamed And wheras you say that M. Doctor must vnderstand that this was ecclesiastical powers Peters punishing of Ananias was by ciuill iurisdiction ▪ Beza de Haeret à Magist. puniendis I say on the other side that you must vnderstand that this was not ecclesiasticall but méere ciuill which you might haue learned of M. Beza in diuers places of his booke de Haereticis à Magistratu pun For thus he writeth Cedò igitur Christus quo iure flagellum his corripuit quo iure Petrus Ananiam Sapbiram occidit quo iure Paulus Elymam excaecauit ▪ Num ecclesiastici ministerij minimè profectò nisi iurisdictiones confundas Ergo ciuilis Magistratus iure Nihil enim est tertium Tell me therefore by what lawe did Christ take the whip in hand twise by what law did Peter kill Ananias and Saphira by what right did Paule strike Elymas with blindnesse did they those things by the right of the ecclesiasticall ministerie no truly except you will confound iurisdictions They did it therefore by the right of ciuill magistracie for ther is no meane And to the same purpose doth he speake sundry times in that booke What outcries I haue vsed or declamations which you haue not in ample manner requited adding to the same al opprobrious kind of speaches and iesting taunts that you could deuise let the indifferent Reader iudge wherfore I hartely wish vnto you both better knowledge and better conscience Chap. 3. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Page 171. Sect. 1. Unto M. Doctor asking where it appeareth that Pope Eugensus brought in prisons into the Church as also vnto the three or fower such like demands ▪ which he maketh in this booke the authours of the Admonition answer at once that this and the other are found in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles Io. Whitgifte What authors doe they alleadge for them for bothe these be but very late writers and this is a matter of historie and therfore requireth some greate antiquitie nerer vnto the tyme of Eugenius who liued Anno. 650. but you knowe verie well that our Bishops claim not this authoritie by any constitution or canon of the Pope neither doe they exercise it in their owne name but they haue it from the Prince and in hir name and by hir authoritie do they vse it Chap. 3. the. 14. Diuision Bishop of Sarum Both these gouernments vvere confounded in Moses Therfore they may be confounded and the Priestes of Israell had the iudgement and gouernment Ecclesiastical and ciuill iurisdiction confounded in Moses of the people and S. Augustine was troubled with hearing and determining of causes as it appeareth by Possidonius And where you say to be a chief or a ruler is a ciuill gouernment nay in ecclesiasticall causes it is ecclesiasticall gouernment and not ciuill And these differences of gouernment Augustine heareth ciuill causes may not so vnaduisedly be confounded This is the key of ecclesiasticall correction and belongerh onely to the ecclesiasticall officer and to none other Hereof Saincte Paule sayth Seniorem ne corripueris nisi sub c. Tradidi illum Satanae This iurisdiction is not ciuill but ecclesiasticall and therfore may be exercised by an ecclesiasticall person T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 1. 2. Here I wyll take in that whiche the Bishop of Sarisburye hath in the last page of his half sheete touching this matter And fyrst of all I well agree that he sayth that to giue vnto Sathan which is to excommunicate and to correct an ecclesiasticall person by reprehension or putting him out of the ministerie if the cause so require is mere ecclesiastical and not ciuill and that those things ought to be done of the officers of the Churche This onely I denye that the ministers ought to medle with ciuill offices For proofe whereof the Bishop alleageth the example of Augustine whiche as Possidonius writeth was troubled with the hearing determining of causes Wherin Possidonius sayth nothing but that I willingly agree vnto For the minister with the elders ought both to heare and determine of causes but of such causes as perteyne vnto their knowledge whereof I haue spoken before And that Possidomus ment such causes as belonged vnto Augustine as he was a minister and not of ciuill affaires it appeareth by that which he writeth immediatly after where he sayth Being also consulted of by certain in their worldly affaires he wrote epistles to diuers but he accounted of this as of compulsien and resiraynte from his better busynesses Wherby it appeareth that S. Augustine medled not with those worldly affaires further than by way of giuing counsell which is not vnlawfull for a minister to doe as one friende vnto another so that his ministerie be not therby hindered Io. Whitgifte What S. Augustine did in such matters and whether he weroccupied in worldly Augustine iudge in worldely matters matters or no and that he was not a counsell giuer only but also a iudge it shall best appeare by his owne wordes spoken of himselfe whiche are so playne and euident that after you haue hearde them you will be ashamed of this answere to Possidonius and of your former assertion also Augustine therefore in his booke de opere Aug. lib. de opere Monac Monachorum of this matter writeth thus VVho feedeth a flock and doth not receiue of the milke of the flocke And yet I call to witnesse vpon my soule the Lorde Iesus in whose name I doe boldely speake these thinges that touchyng myne owne commoditie I hadde rather euerye daye as it is appoynted in well ordered Monasteries to woorke some thyng wyth my handes and to haue the other houres free to reade and to praye or too dooe somme thynge in the Holye Scriptures than too suffer the tumultuous perplexities of other mennes causes touchyng secular businesse eyther in determinyng them by iudging or in cutting them off by intreatyng to the whyche troubles Augustine thinketh that the how ghost hath bounde Bishops to ciuill causes the Apostle hathe bounde vs not by his owne iudgement but by the iudgement of hym whyche didde speake in him and yet hee himselfe did not suffer these troubles for the discourse of his Apostleship was otherwyse Here in playne woordes hée declareth that it was secular busynesse aboute the whyche he was occupyed and although he séeme to complayne of the multitude of suche businesse yet dothe hee acknowledge the same to bee lawfull iuste and conueniente and therefore he addeth and sayeth VVhyche laboure notwythstandyng wee suffer not without the consolation of the Lorde for the hope of eternall lyfe that wee maye bryng foorthe frute wyth pacience for wee are seruauntes of that Churche and especially to the weaker members what members soeuer wee are in the same bodie And
where greate complaynte is made of this greeuous persecution when as you and your disciples cease not as I sayde moste falsely and slaunderously to reporte of suche as executing good lawes discharge theyr conscience to God and their duetie towardes the Prince We therefore exhorte you if there be any feare of God before your eyes any reuerence towards the Prince any desire of promoting the Gospell any louing affection towardes the Church of Christe to submit your selues according to your dueties to godly orders to leaue off contentiousnesse to ioyne with vs in preaching of the word of God and beating downe the kingdome of Antichriste that thys your diuision procure not Gods wrath to be poured vpon vs. T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 2. Here M. Doctor contrary to the pretestation of the authours of the Admonition whiche declare that for the abuses and corruptions they dare not simply subscribe saithe that therefore they will not subscribe bycause they are required by lawfull authoritie which how both presumptuous and vncharitable a iudgement it is let all men iudge especially vpon this matter whiche hath bin declared And where M. Doctor would vpon y ◠marginal note pr y t we haue good discipline bycause we haue good doctrine ther vpon doth wonderfully triumph he playeth as he of whome it is said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is hauing gotten nothing holdeth it fast For can M. Doctor be so ignorant that this manner of speach doctrine and discipline cannot be s uered is vsed of that that they ought not to be seuered ▪ when as we say following S. Paule that we can do nothing against the truth do we not meane that we ought to do nothing or can do nothing lawfully against it And do not all men know when we say that a man cannot be separated from his wife but for the cause of A ultery that we meane he ought not or he cannot lawfully Therefore this is as all men may see a meere cauill and triumph ouer his owne shadow There is no bragge of suffering made by the authours of the Admonition The modestie wherwith he hath defended this cause cannot be hidden That he would haue other men punished for well doing when he is not content that the open wrongs which he doth should be once spoken of I haue shewed how vnreasonable it is Io. Whitgifte I speake of their denying to subscribe to the Articles concerning the substance of doctrine which they confesse to be sound vsing a godly interpretation in a poynt or two c. what other abuses so euer there be in the booke of common prayer or in the Church yet that is no sufficient cause why they shoulde refuse to subscribe to the truth of doctrine professed in this Church and conteyned in those Articles Wherefore séeing they confesse them to be sound and yet denie to subscribe who can otherwise iudge of them than I haue signifyed in my Answer I acknowledge my selfe to be ignorante that in this and suche like phrases thys Can is not taken for ought if it be spoken simply word Can is taken for ought When Saint Paule saithe that we can do nothing againste the truth he meaneth simply as he speaketh and doth not there vse Can for ought For indeede we can do nothing against the truth though we do the worst we can It is no vsuall phrase but an vnproper kind of speach to say that a man cannot do a thing when he should say that he ought not to do it except he adde some thing as he cannot do it lawfully or well or orderly and such like Wherefore my dulnesse is such that I cannot vnderstande suche darke speaches vntill they be interpreted and yet whether they woulde so interprete themselues or no it maye be doubted If they bragge not of persecution wherevnto tende these wordes of theirs this is that we striue for about which we haue suffered not as euill doers c. and quote in the margent to proue it 1. Pet. 3. as though they were persecuted by infidels How immodest soeuer I am in defending this cause yet if it be compared eyther to Schismatiks deserue to be sharply reproued their passing bitternesse or to your spitefull speaches and vnséemely tauntes and iestes I shall appeare tootoo simple and although I must néedes say thus much that disturbers of the common peace of the Churche and Schismatikes deserue to be with sharpe wordes reproued yet haue not I vsed that sharpenesse and bitternesse whyche diuerse learned menne bothe olde and newe haue vsed in the lyke case If I haue done any man wrong let him come foorth and proue it and I will render vnto him quadruple T. C. Pag. 172. Sect. 3. Finally as you exhort vs to submitte ourselues to good order whiche haue bin alwayes and yet are ready to do to leaue to be contentious which neuer yet began to ioyne with you in preaching the word of God which haue stopped our mouthes and will not suffer vs to preache so we exhort you in Gods behalfe and as you will once answer it before the iust iudge that you will not willingly shut your eyes against the truth that if the Lord vouchsafe to open it vnto you you kicke not against it Wherefore we pray you to take heede that neither the desire of keeping your wealth and honoure which you are in nor the hope which you may haue of any further promotion nor yet the care of keeping your estimation by mainteining that whiche you haue once set downe nor the sleighey suggestion of craftie and wyly Papists do driue you to stumble against this truth of God which toucheth the gouernment of his Church and the purging of those corruptions whiche are amongst vs knowing that you cannot stumble vpon the word of God but foorthwith you runne yourselfe against Christ which is the rocke And you know that he will not giue back but breaketh all to fitters whatsoeuer that rusheth against him Io. Whitgifte You do not submit your selues to the order of the Church which is a good and decent order you haue filled the Churche with maruellous contentions and haue strangely deuided euen such as professe the Gospell your mouthes are not stopped but through your owne procuring I do not withstand that which you vntruly call the truth for any such cause as you surmise God who seeth my hart knoweth but bycause I sée these your deuises to be set downe by you without any sufficient warrant in the word of God agaynste the practise and order of the primitiue Churche tending also to daungerous errours and meere confusion both of the Church and of the common wealth T. C. Page 172. Sect. vlt. And if the matter herein alleadged do not satisfye you then I desire euen before the same GOD that you confute it not by passing ouer thynges whyche you can not answer or by stauing both the words and the meaning of the booke and taking your owne fansie to confuce or by wrougling
with the fault of the print or by carping at the translation when the wordes being changed the sense remayneth or by alleadging that such a one or such another was of this or that iudgement as you for the most part hauing nothing but his bare name haue done All whiche thinges you haue committed in this booke ▪ but that you confute it by the authoritie of the worde of God by good and sound reasons wholy and not by peecemeale And if you bring the practise of the churches we desire that it may be out of authorities which are extant which are not counterfeyte and which were in the best and purest times And if you thinke that the credite of your Doctor ship or Deanry will beare out that which you cannot answer your selfe besides that * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is neuer shut ▪ remember M. Doctor that lighte is come into tht worlde and The reuenging eye men will not be deluded with nothing nor abused with visards neyther let it embolden you which peraduenture hathe made poli presume the more in ▪ this booke to write any thing vppon hope that no man dare answer it For neyther the Queenes Maiestie nor hir honorable counsell as we are perswaded will deale so sharply with those whome they know to be faithfull and lawfull subiects which pray that all the treasures of Gods wisedome may be poured vpon them neither haue we cause to thinke but that as the euill opinion which is in part conceiued of vs hath growen vppon false and vntrue informations whiche you and such other haue giuen in crying in their eares that we be Anabaptists conspired with Papists Puritanes Donatists bringers in of confusion and anarchy enimies to ciuill gouernment and I know not what euen so when hir Maiestie and their honours shall vnderstand how farre we are from those wicked opinions they will leaue that opinion of vs ▪ and rather esteeme of vs by that we haue preached taught and now write than that whiche other men report of vs being thinges which we neuer taught ▪ spake or so much as dreamed of Io. Whitgifte It is so farre from satisfying me in any point that it greatly confirmeth me in some thing where vnto before I did but incline Such is the weakenesse of your grounds Your request made vnto me is against all reason for how can you require that of The Replye requireth that of others which he him selfe woulde not performe me towarde you which you haue in no respect perfourmed towards me for firste you haue not set downe my booke that the Reader mighte perceiue how vprightly you deale with me secondly you haue passed ouer many thinges and left them vnanswered Thirdly you haue vnreasonably wrested my words and in most places you do nothing but wrangle you haue mangled my booke and so skipt from place to place that the Reader shall hardly perceine what you take or what you leaue to be short you haue vsed few scriptures and those vntollerably wrested How then can you require the contrary of me But I haue satisfied your request to the full I trust saue only I do not intend to learne of you how to answer what authoritie to vse but if the authorities and reasons that I bring shall be sound to be light they shall the more easily by you be remoued I depend not vppon the credit of my Doctorship or Deanry neither would I wish you too much to trust to the opinion of your owne learning and witte I say with Sainte Augustine Let scripture be compared with scripture reason with reason authoritie with authoritie cause with cause and let vs both according to the same be iudged I doubte not of the answering of my booke neyther do I feare it you knowe that Conference by writing hath bin often offered to the Replier I haue offered you diuerse tymes this kind of conference though not in thys publike manner I haue spoken nothing agaynste you before hir maiestie whyche your bookes and doings haue not proued to be true Hir Maiestie and their honours know what they haue to do the Lord blisse them with his holy spirit and in all their doings guide them Of the additions detractions and alterations made by the admonitors in both the partes of the Admonition T. C. Pag. 173. Sect. 1. Beside that often thne M. Doctor doth account the expositions and explanations corrections he ueth vs somewhat the lesse hope that he will correct his errours for that he purfueth the authours of the Admonition so harde correcting their very small and few slips whiche they haue made calling this singular destie and commendable hum tie amongst other reproches dalying and inconstancie when it is our profession euery day to learne better things For vnto what end should we liue if time if experiēce if reading iusing if conference should teach vs nothing And therefore when thinges are printed againe it is good and prayse worthy to polishe those thynges which are some what rud to mitigate these things which are too sharpe to make playne to giue light to those things which seeme darker and to correct that which is amisse I thinke M. Doctor should not be ignorante that wise men haue their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there second councells and those also wiser and better than their first as that sentence doth declare I will therefore say no more hereof but admonish M. Doctor that he receiue more louingly those whiche correcte themselues seing that the best defense to his booke must be not a correction here and there but a cleane blotting or striking out not an amending but a new making almost of his whole booke Other matter in his censures he hath almost none at all woorth the answering sauing that he hathe a place or two which toucheth the matters before entreated of Io. Whitgifte It behoueth such as will take vpon them to plucke downe that which is wel builded They whiche wil pul down the olde and place a newe platforme oughte to be v rie circumspecte and to make a new platforme to be well aduised what they do and assured of their cunning if this ought to be in humane matters and in externall affaires of the life of man how much more ought it to be in diuine matters and things perteyning to the kingdome of heauē I do not mislike that modestie and humilitie that is contente to be corrected and to acknowledge that whiche is ami e. But I can by no meanes allowe that pryde and arrogancie that presuming to condemne the whole state of a Churche and to prescribe vnto the same a newe platforme is by and by after through vnskilfulnesse and lack of discretion at the first constreyned to misselyke that newe platforme also and to p ce it and patch it like a beggers cloke with putting too and taking fro with altering and chaunging sometyme this and sometyme that like vnto foolishe and vnskilful buylders It behoueth suche as will take vpon them
handle matters which perteyne not to the spirituall iurisdiction this I say he speaketh but he doth not proue it In the rest of that Section he intreateth of the abuses of such officers wherein I doe not dissent from him T. C. M. Beza in hs booke of Diuorces prouing that the iudiciall deciding of matrimoniall causes apperteyneth vnto the ciuill magistrate sayth that Officials Proctors end Promoters and in a worde all the swinish filth now of long time hath wasted the Church Io. Whitgifte I vnderstande not by what reasons M. Beza in that place proueth that the iudiciall deciding of matrimoniall causes apperteyneth to the ciuill Magistrate Howbeeit Officials c. in such cases deale not in this Church of Englande without the consent and authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate It is not good dealing to applie those things which M. Beza and other speake of such offices abused vnder the Pope to the same offices nowe reformed vnder a Christian Prince that professeth the Gospell But thus you dazell the peoples eyes T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. Chap. to the Romaines speaking against the ciuill iurisdiction of Bishops doth by the same reason condemne it in their Deputies the Officials Io. Whitgifte Peter Martyr speaketh not agaynst the office but agaynst certaine abuses in the officers this is not simple dealing to transferre that to the office that is spoken of the abuse of the office T. C. 7 That the Ministers of the worde ought not to exercise any ill offices and iurisdiction M. Caluin in his institutions 4. booke 11. chap. 9. Sect. bringeth diuers reasons to proue that Bishops may neyther vs rpe nor take 〈◊〉 giuen them eyther the right of the sworde or the knowledge of ciuill causes Io. Whitgifte The reasons that M. Caluine vseth there be neyther many nor greatly strong I haue answered them fullie Tract 23. and yet M. Caluine speaketh onely of that princely power which the Romishe Bishops clayme not as committed vnto them by the Prince and and ciuill Magistrate but due vnto them by the worde of God from the which chalenge I haue shewed in the foresayde treatise howe farre our Bishops are T. C. M. Beza in his Confessions Chap. 5. Sect. 32. sayth that the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction is to be distinguished from the ciuill and that although the Bishoppes in the tymes of christian Emperours were troubled with the hearing of ciuill causes yet they did not that by any iudiciall power which they exercised but by a friendly intreatie of the parties whiche were at discorde and sayth notwithstanding that herein the Emperours did giue to much to the ambition of certaine Bishops wherevpon by little and by little afterwarde all things were confounded And in the. 42. Section sayth that those corporall punishments whiche the Apostles exercised were peculiar and extraordinarie Io. Whitgifte M. Beza his bare worde is no sufficient proofe agaynst so many other testimonies and reasons as are to the contrarie and I haue sufficiently shewed Tract 23. cap. 3. Diuis vlt. that Bishops in tymes past did not onely heare ciuill causes but also iudicially determine the same Touching the corporall punishments which the Apostles exercised M. Beza in his booke de Haereticis a magistratu puniendis doth make them so ordinarie that he vseth them as sufficient arguments to proue his purpose and sayth plainly that the Apostles did exercise these punishments not by the right of the Ecclesiasticall ministerie but by the right of the ciuill Magistracie as I haue declared Tract 23. Cap. 3. Diuis 12. T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 13. to the Romanes speaking of this meetings of both Ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction in one man sayth that when both the ciuill and Ecclesiasticall functions do so meete that one hynder the other so that he which exerciseth the one cannot minister the other Io. Whitegifte M. Martyr speaketh of an absolute iurisdiction ciuill such as the Pope claymeth and not of this which is practised by the Bishops in the Church of England whereof he had experience in the dayes of King Edwarde euen in this realme and the which he also then allowed T. C. M. Bucer vpon the. 5. of Matthew sayth that there is no man so wise and holy which is able to exercise both the ciuill and the Ecclesiasticall power and that therefore he whiche will exercise the one must leaue the other Io. Whitgifte I answere as I did to M. Martyr for he also allowed that ciuill iurisdiction that the Bishops in England did exercise in the time of King Edwarde T. C. 8 That the Sacraments ought not to be priuately administred nor by women The foresayd confession C. 20. holdeth that baptisme ought not to be ministred by women or midwyues to the which also may be ioyned the Liturgie of the English Church at Geneua which condemneth the ministring of eyther of the Sacraments in priuate houses or by women I Whitgifte These be néedlesse proofes yet are there learned mē of the cōtrary iudgemēt ow beit no man sayth that women may baptise ordinarily or that the Sacramonts may be administred in priuate places otherwise than vpon vrgent occasion and in that respecte no learned man dothe condemne the ministring of the Sacramentes in priuate places T. C. Peter Martyr vpon the. 11. chapter of the. 1. Epistle to the Corinthes in describing the corruptions of the Lordes Supper noteth this to be one that the Churche did not communicate altogither which corruption as it was in diuers places in tymes past so he complayneth that it is nowe Io. Whitgifte M. Martyr in that place speaketh agaynste priuate Masses and the complainte that he maketh is concerning them wherein we fully agrée with him neyther doe we like or allowe of suche as withdrawe themselues from the Lordes table when the Supper is celebrated You neuer loue to rehearse the authors wordes bycause they make not for you but gather collections of your owne contrarie to the meaning of the author as you do in this place which the Reader shall easily perceiue if it wil please him to reade M. Martyr himself in that place by you quoted And surely it is too great iniurie to wreste that to the order of celebrating the Communion allowed off in this Church of Englande which he or any man else speaketh agaynst pryuate Masses but such are your deepe and profounde collections T. C. M. Bucer in his first booke of the kingdome of Christ and. 7. chapter proueth out of the 10. to the Corinthes that the whole Churche shoulde receiue the Supper of the Lorde togyther and that the vse of the Church of God in this behalfe ought with great and diligent endeuour to be restored vnto the Churches and that it is a contempt of the mysteries not to be partakers when they are called Io. Whitgifte M. Bucer speaketh nothing in that place touching this question where vnto I agrée not he woulde haue the Communion ministred in the publike congregation who denyeth that except