same time that this was only commanded concerning that Countrey and that there is no proof can be made that there were any innocent Books there imploy'd in their Idol-worship No we conclude rather all were Superstitious and Idolatrous in themselves and such as could never be imployed in Divine Service It is true at last he comes to remember us that in the New Testament we read the Christian Converts burnt their Curious Books Act. 19.19 But what is this to the Precepts he promised to shew us given to the Israelites And what is this to the business of Prayer-Books Nay why did he not shew us the Innocence of these Books and prove that Conjuring was a very harmless Art N. C. I wish you would have done with this Book of his which I think in one sense is innocent enough and will do no harm among considering people C. I am content to make an end for I fear I have been too tedious But it was out of a desire to examine seriously whether there were such force as he conceives in this Engine to batter down all the Fortifications that they who preside in the Church or their Assistants can erect in defence of the abused Scandalous things as he calls them which with so much zeal we contend for viz. the Liturgy and Ceremonies They are his words in his Epistle N. C. He tells you a little after that he will not offer to impose his belief on others Let every body read and then do as he finds cause C. I commend his Ingenuity and Modesty only I wish his Zeal was a little less in this matter and that he would not think himself and others ingag'd to endeavour to the utmost of their power the Extirpation and abolishing of the Liturgy For what is this but to impose his belief upon us as much as he is able in his place Doth he only offer his Reasons who solicites and perswades and intreats men to promote his Design Doth he leave others to judge who ingages their Affections and stirs up their Passions as if the Cause were already decided according to his mind This it is to be zealous to advance a private Opinion He meant it 's like as he spoke when he told us in his Epistle that he expected and desired 〈◊〉 more but that we would candidly weigh th◠case but his zeal made him forget himself and earnestly beseech us to be up and doing as if judgment were already given on his side This I make no doubt was the thing that put him so much beside the Cushion as to make him magnifie the Purity of those Doctrines which in sober thoughts he saw were of pernicious consequence And I would willingly think it was nothing else that made him only pass his word that the Liturgy is one of the things that God would have laid aside without any Proof of it For whatsoever he or the Assembly have been pleased to say no body ever made an Idol of it or were guilty of adoring it These are but a kind of Conjuring Phrases and Magical words which make a great Sound and astonish the silly people but signifie nothing save only this that men care not what they say to serve their cause And therefore I hope you will not be afrighted by such Bug-bears but come and do your Duty to God and man both together in joyning with us in Common-Prayer N. C. I will consider it as I have told you more than once But I have had the less mind to come to it because after it is done your Minister prays so coldly himself C. That is he doth not put himself into a Sweat But are not his words lively and apt to warm the Hearts of those who attend to them N. C. Methinks not And beside his Sermons that follow are very dull and nothing comparable to ours C. Now you are got again to the Hole from whence I did drive you a good while agoe you run in a Circle of discourse and are returned thither where we first began But since I have followed your motions thus far I will ask you this question Why do you not rather think your self dull than him N. C. Because I am not dull in other places and yet was so at your Church C. You may be in the fault for all that For perhaps you was disaffected to his Person or to his method of handling things or you had a greater Kindness for some other and then though S. Paul himself should preach you would be apt to prefer that man before him N. C. No methinks his matter is dull and flat C. Why what did you hear him treat of N. C. I heard him preach about the necessity of Obedience to the Laws of Christ And there he told us how we must do as we would be done unto and love our Neighbours as our selves and forgive Injuries and make Restitution of ill-gotten Goods with a great many other such like things which every body knows already And yet he spent I know not well how many Sermons about these common matters C. Does every body know these things say you The greater shame then that they live not according to them I am afraid they are not sensible of the necessity of these things about which a man of any understanding and seriousness cannot well speak and be flat and dull I much suspect that you even set your self to sleep or suffered your thoughts to run to other matter or fell a reading in your Bible as I have seen some do when he begun to treat of such Arguments as these thinking that you was little concern'd in them N. C. I must confess part of what you say For when I come to Church I look not for Moral but Christian Doctrines C. How now Do you oppose Morality and Christianity Is not the former a part of the latter I mean doth not the Christian Religion teach us the highest Morality N. C. No I think it doth not meddle with it C. Then you talk of this as you do of many other things without understanding Pray what is Moral Doctrine N. C. Do you tell me if you please C. I always took it to be that Doctrine which teaches us how to regulate our manners that is to order and govern our actions or our whole Behaviour in this World Now I appeal to any man that reads the Gospel whether this be not the very design of it to teach us to live soberly righteously and godlily N. C. Is this morality C. Yes that it is And therefore I said that Christian Religion advances Morality to the greatest height because it gives us the best and most excellent Motives to live soberly righteously charitably and piously in this World N. C. For all this I think it were better if Jesus Christ were more preached C. Still I see you deceive your self and trouble the world with Phrases Doth not he preach Jesus Christ that preaches his Doctrine If you doubt of it you shall
I had once perused a little of it N. C. What part did you peruse C. I thought that the Marrow I was told of might be found if any where in that Discourse which he calls the Way and Spirit of the New Testament But as far as I examin'd it I met with nothing but a great many bones to pick and they had little or nothing on them N. C. Pray forbear this merriment and let us seriously consider what he saith C. That 's my desire And for your satisfaction read that part where he tells us what the way of the Old Testament was and what the way of the New is I believe I shall convince you that he is not only out of the true way but also describes his own way after a poor and wretched manner N. C. Be not so earnest C. He tells us in the first place That the Old Testament Legal spirit serves God upon the account of Rewards mostly or chiefly or only But the New Testament spirit doth not Whereas there is nothing plainer than that Rewards are propounded in both Covenants to encourage our duty And the Gospel urges us so frequently with the consideration of the rewards it promises that I question not but he that hath them always in his mind and serves our Lord Christ out of those hopes as his chief motive pleases him very well For the true difference between the Covenants is not that the one sets rewards before men and the other not but that the old Covenant made with the Jews propounded Temporal Rewards and the Gospel propounds Eternal which arâ— as often repeated in the Gospel as the other it the Law And therefore he hath discovered 〈◊〉 New-nothiing when he saith that to serve Goâ— for Rewards mostly c. is plainly Legal Nay it is absolutely false For if a man be moved a I said only by hopes of unseen things in anoâ— ther world to obey God and quit things present for his sake no doubt he serves him in an Evangelical manner N. C. Good Neighbour be not so confident C. Why should I not have some degree of confidence about these things seeing I am master of common Reason and I have consulted also with several of our Ministers about them who have made it plain to me that the Gospel propounds Eternal Rewards in the Life to come as the great motive to well-doing The most that any sober man ever said as far as I can learn in this argument is that he who doth well only in sight of those rewards is in a weak estate but they always allowed him to be indued with an Evangelical Spirit N. C. Then it seems you live upon your own purse and upon what you can earn of God which he tells you is contrary to a Gospel spirit C. It is so But that is an impertinent Conclusion from his former discourse For a man may serve God upon the account of Reward and yet not be so foolish as to imagine he can earn any thing of him N. C. Indeed you speak too confidently C. I am not of that mind For I may judge what is consequently spoken as well as another man And I am sure that Conclusion is nothing to the purpose only he imagin'd this to be a pretty saying That a man of a Gospel spirit knows he lives upon a better purse than all his own â—arnings can amount unto N.C. I wish you would be more temperate C. Who can endure to see men bear up themselves so highly and hear them cry'd up as if they were full of the Spirit when as there is scarce common sense in them and not be a little concern'd N.C. Well suppose there be one flaw in that Discourse must that make all this ado C. One flaw Read the rest and you will find that it is no wiser For he would have us immediately after to receive this as another note of a Legal spirit that it is a fearing spirit put on rather by the Threatnings than the Promises and the Gospel spirit rather by Promises than Threatning N.C. And is not this true C. No. For our Saviour bids his Disciples again and again to fear Luke 12.4 5. not indeed such things as the Mosaical spirit did Temporal Calamities upon their Bodies Goods c. but Eternal Miseries which they should avoid though with the enduring of all the hardships in the world And whereas he says that the difference between the Dispensations is that the one is terrible the other comfortable it is manifestly false For the Gospel speaks a great deal more terribly than the Law doth to Hypocrites and Unbelievers N.C. Therefore he tells you afterward that a gratious Soul may be full of fears about its condition C. This is nothing to his business For he was not speaking concerning the fears which a Soul hath about its estate but of the Principle upon which a man doth his duty And if I understand any thing a Christian is moved by fear as well as hope N.C. Well he acknowledges so much when he saith a gracious heart may be full of fears C. I tell you again this is impertinent for these are not motives to his Duty but rather hindrances and impediments as he will tell you And besides he makes them to be causeless fears for he saith they are the fears of a man that stands upon a rock and therefore he ought not to be troubled with them Whereas the Scripture requires us to fear Hebr. 4.1 and tells us there is cause for it lest a Promise being left us of entring into rest any of us should seem to come shore of it and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and to have grace to serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear Mind this last place and tell me if it do not directly oppose what he saith He perswades you that a fearing spirit is a Legal spiritâ— and the Apostle tells you it is an effect of the Gospel grace and such a thing whereby we acceptably serve God N.C. You have studied this I perceive and I have not But what say you to the third which is this A Legal spirit measures the love of God by outward things C. I say it is the best thing he says and he was to blame that he passed it over so slightly and hastily as if it were not worth his notice N.C. Is not the fourth as remarkable viz. That an Old Testament Spirit trades much or most or altogether with conditional Promises the other not C. It is indeed very remarkable First for the paltry phrase of trading in promises and Secondly for the pernicious consequence of the Doctrine N.C. Why Is not the Doctrine true C. No. For though there was an absolute Promise of sending Christ yet there are no absolate Promises which Christ makes to us N.C. He seems to grant as much C. That is he contradicts himself N.C. No he saith though the Promise bâ— Conditional yet the Lord hath promised that
enough in their Descants upon as plain words as those And therefore why they should forbear to say any thing there I cannot imagine unless it were a fear of displeasing the Parliament and many of their partakers For as for themselves I believe many of them would not have had the Lands sold but imployed to their use and benefit N. C. Well is this all C. No there is another remarkable place in the Book of Joshua Chap. 6.19 where God commands all the Gold and Silver c. which should be taken in Jericho to be consecrated to him and put into the Treasury Notwithstanding which we read that Achan purloined 200 shekels of Silver and a wedge of Gold to his own private use and was therefore severely punished nay all the Congregation troubled for his offence till he suffered for it Josh 7.21 And yet these men say not a syllable of this Sin in their Notes on either of those verses though all other Divines are wont from thence to shew how dangerous it was then to rob God and take a way what was separated to his uses In other places I am sure they oft make large Declamations against some Sins and in a manner preach against them and therfore why they should not have a syllable to say here about this matter is a great Mystery unless I have discovered the cause of it As for that place Gen. 47.22 I know you will say they were Idolatrous Priests whose Land Joseph sold not But methinks they needed not have made an excuse as they there do for Joseph's not selling them as if it had been an act of greater Virtue if he had And methinks they should have told the world pretty smartly that if Pharaoh had such a respect to the Aegyptian Priesthood as not to sell their Land Christian Princes Governours should not be more unkind if not unjust in these days nor expose to sale those Lands which have been sertled upon the Priests of the most High God But above all I wonder at their profound silence in their Notes upon Ezek. 48.14 where one would think at last they would have broken it especially since they might have done it pretty securely in such an obscure place which few read There the Lands of the Levites are again forbidden to be sold And by Levites according to their own Principles we are to understand the Ministers of the Gospel whose Lands therefore ought not to be sold I prove it clearly thus In the beginning of their Explication of this Vision they lay down this for a Foundation of their Exposition Chap. 40.2 that herein was represented the ample and flourishing estate of Christ's Church under the Types of the Re-building of the Temple Restauration of the Levitical Worship and Service nad the Repossession and Inhabitation of the whole Land Which they repeat again Chap. 43.1 and in sundry other places If this be true as they believed it to be then according to their own Rules the assigning of Land for the Levites must signifie the care that ought to be taken to settle a Maintenance for the support of the Gospel-Ministery and Service and the prohibition against selling the Levites Lands must denote the pleasure of God that the portion of Land or other things settled upon the Evangelical Priesthood or Ministery should never be alienated from them Now I pray you tell me why would they not open their mouths at last in so plain a case as this What should be the cause that they do not so much as name this Sin much less bid the World beware of it and still much less pass any sentence upon it Do you think they did not know what is wont to be said on these places Did they not understand well enough that if they would write consequently to their own principles before laid down they must either tax that Sin in this place of Ezekiel or else say just nothing Why did they chuse the later and pass it over with a word but only referring us to two or three places of Scripture nothing to the purpose N. C. Truly I know not what to say C. I 'll tell you then The most probable conjecture is that which I have made already That they were afraid in the least to displease their masters who set them on work The Parliament would have taken it very ill and all the good people too who to save their own purses were content the Churches Lands should be sold to carry on the War which they had illegally begun N. C. I hope better and that you will not now take occasion from the mention you make of the War to fall into a Declamation against the other Sin of Rebellion C. Since you love not to hear any thing of it I am content to be as silent as your Minsters were wont to be only let me tell you I have observed several other things which they forbear not because they think it is their Duty but for fear of displeasing a party N. C. What do you mean C. I mean it was for this reason that they seldom or never some of them used the Lora's Prayer because the people had been taught on a sudden to abhorr Forms without remembring them that the Lord's prayer was a Form It was not fit to tell them that for fear they should have continued to like other Forms of prayer for its sake I observe also that still they will by no means give the title of Saint to one of the Apostles or Evangelists of our Lord though I think they will call them Holy which is the same no not when they reade a Text out of their Writings For which I can conceive no other reason but their good Dames and Masters do not like it They are afraid that it is Popish And rather than these Men-servers will be at the pains of convincing them of their errour or to speak more properly rather than venture the danger of losing them for many might in a passion fly off if they heard the name of Saint given to any but themselves they will not offend their tender ears by naming that abominable word And were it not that I am loath to try you I could instance in a great many other things wherein they are meer Slaves to the humours of the people and serve the time not daring to say those things or to use those words which they know are fit to be said and to be used meerly because many people will run away from them N. C. There is no danger of that Whither should they run C. To our Ministers whom perhaps they forsook upon such little accounts and so may return to them when they see others do like them N. C. Hold you content Neighbour They will never return to one that is an Apostate and hath forsaken his Principles And that I am sure you will grant your Minister hath done though you will not have him call'd a Time-server C. You have a company of the
by rightly representing them to the World They ought not to betray the Church wherein they live by a base and unworthy Silence Even the meanest Child of us ought to speak when you are about to kill our Mother Your long Nails wherewith you now scratch her Face must be shewn the people who see them not while they behold your hands lifted up to Heaven But besides these two there is a third sort between both who are dissatisfied only with a few things allow our Ministers to be good men and wish for Peace but yet for private respects hold fair correspondence with the Furies now named keep up the Separation hold Conventicles suffer the people without reproof to be fierce and violent against us connive at a great many of their false and absurd Opinions let them alone in their rude and insolent behaviour take not sufficient care to instruct them in the Truth to bring them to a modest and peaceable temper In short to qualifie them for Compliance with us Do not smile at the word for I can demonstrate it might soon be brought about if they pleased N. C. How I Pray Can you do more than all the men in the Kingdom C. Let them perswade their people but to be of their mind and the business is done N. C. Do you think they do not C. No I warrant you If they did the people would conform though they cannot For that which keeps this sort of Ministers from Conforming is not any thing to which the people are bound but something particularly required of them N. C. You have revealed a Secret to me C. It is easy for any body to find out that hath a mind to it There being nothing plainer than this that they would have read those prayers which I would have you hear if something else had not been in the way which you are not concerned in and that is renouncing the Covenant Let them then but perswade you to do all that they can do themselves and in order to that give you Reasons why it should be done and then I may hope to see you and I go to the same Church together And for them that do not stand upon the Covenant for there are some such they haâ—… the greater reason to exhort you to come nay to come themselves and bring you along with them But lest they should not do their duty give me leave to speak to you in those very words which they have writ to others and if you think they have now any weight in them as I believe you once thought they had we shall not be long separated N. C. What have they writ C. In a Book call'd A Vindication of the Presbyterial Government c. You will find a speech of your Ministers and Elders in the Province of London to those that had left their Communion and stood in divided Congregations from them Which if it had any force then in your opinion ought to prevail with you now to come and joyn your self again to us whom you have forsaken I will cite you some Passages of it in their own words And let me begin with those which you find pag. 130. in a distinct Character as the strength I suppose of what they had to say If we be a Church of Christ and Christ hold Communion with us why do you separate from us If we be the Body of Christ do not they that separate from the Body separate from the Head also We are loath to speak any thing that may offend you yet we intreat you to consider that if the Apostle call those Divisions of the Church of Corinth wherein Christians did 〈◊〉 separate into divers formed Congregations of several Communion in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper Schisms 1 Cor. 1.10 may not your Secession from us and professing you cannot joyn with us as Members and setting up Congregations of another Communion be more properly called Schism Thus they plead for Unity and Uniformity in those dayes 1649. And we say the very same now Be just I beseech you and either pronounce that they had no reason on their side when they wrote those words or that we have reason too who use the same to you Hear also what they say a little after and think one of us speaks it to you You gather Churches out of our Churches and you set up Churches in an opposite way to our Churches and all this you do voluntarily and unwarrantably not having any sufficient cause for it For you acknowledge us to be the true Churches of Jesus Christ and Churches with which Christ holds Communion This I dare say is the Judgment of every true Fresbyterian that the Church of England is a true Member of Christ's Body and that Christ holds Communion with her and hath not cut her off because of any Ceremonies she uses from him the Head of the Church If so consider I beseech you as they intreat their Brethren of the Separation How dare you refuse to hold Communion with those whom Christ Jesus holds Communion withall How can you with a safe Conscience thus separate your selves from those who are not separated from Christ Is it nothing to make a Schism in his Body Do you not rend your selves from him when you thus rend your selves from it Think seriously on it before you sleep that you may at least in purpose and resolution presently unite your self to us from whom you have departed N. C. But I am told that every Separation is not a Schism C. To this they answer in that Book and pray mind it The godly Learned say that every unjust and rash Separation from a true Church that is when there is no just or at least no sufficient cause of the Separation is a Schism And that there is a negative and a positive Schism The former is when men do peaceably and quietly draw from Communion with a Church not making a head against that Church from which they are departed The other is when persons so withdrawing do consociate and withdraw themselves into a distinct and opposite Body setting up a Church against a Church which let me tell you by the way is your Case my good Neighbour which Camero calls a Schism by way of eminency and farther tells us there are four Causes that make a separation from a Church lawful First when they that separate are grievously and intolerably persecuted Secondly when the Church they separate from is Heretical Thirdly when it is Idolatrous Fourthly when it is the Seat of Antichrist And where none of these four are found there the Separation is insufficient and Schism Now we are fully assured that none of these four Causes can be justly charged upon our Congregations therefore you must not be displeased with us but with your selves if we blame you as guilty of positive Schism What say you now my Neighbour Was this good Doctrine then or no If it was it is so still and I beseech you make good
use of it N. C. Some think it is a sufficient cause to separate in that there are such sinful mixtures tolerated among you and that your Congregations are miscellaneous Companies of all Gatherings and all sorts are admitted even to Sacramental Communion C. That 's the very Objection which your Ministers and Elders saw framed against them by the Separatists And what they answer to them we return to you First That this Charge is not true the Rule of the Church of England being as full and strict for Church-Members that shall come to Communion as that of the Assembly there cited pag. 133. which is this That they must be visible Sainst such as being of age do profess Faith in Christ and obedience to Christ according to the Rules of Faith aud Life taught by Christ and his appostles Secondly Suppose there were some sinful Mixtures say they at our Sacraments yet we conceive this is not a sufficient ground of a Negative much less of a Positive Separation The Learned Author forementioned tells us that Corruption in Manners crept into a Church is not a sufficient cause of Separation from it This he proves from Math. 23.2 3. and he adds also this Reason for it Because in what Church soever there is Purity of Doctrine there God hath his Church though overwhelm'd with Scandals And therefore whosoever separates from such an Assembly separates from the place where God hath his Church which is rash and unwarrantable The Church of Corinth had such a profane Mixture at their Sacrament as we believe few if any of our Congregations can be charged withal and yet the Apostle doth not perswade the Godly party to separate much less to gather a Church out of a Church N. C. What do you tell me of the Doctrine of a Forreign Divine C. They have made it theirs by approving what he says in their Book And besides they tell you there were many Godly and Learned Non-conformists of the last Age that were perswaded in their Conscience they could not hold Communion with the Church of England in receiving the Sacrament kneeling without Sin yet did they not separate from her Indeed in that particular act they withdrew but yet so as that they held Communion with her in the rest being far from a Negative much more from a Positive Separation from her Nay some of them mind the words even then when our Churches were full of sinful Mixtures with great Zeal and Learning defended them so far as to write against those that did separate from them who these Good and Learned men were they tell you in the Margin Mr. Cartwright Mr. Dod Mr. Hildersham Mr. Bradshaw Mr. Ball. N. C. Then we shall communicate with men in their sinâ— and we must not be led to that by the greatest Examples C. To prevent that they will advise you that if any Brother offend you you are not to separate from him for this is not the way to gain but to destroy his Soul but to tell him of it privately and in an orderly way to bring it to the Church And when you have done your Duty you have freed your Soul and may safely and comfortably communicate in that Church without Sin N. C. I perceive you are read in our Writers And trely you have now told me so much from them that I shall not have so hard an opinion of you as I had before And I hope this will preserve me from being guilty of the sin of Schism because the Nature of that consists in an open breach of Christian Love C. This will not serve your turn but you must come and joyn in Communion with us again For they tell you that as he who denies a Fundamental Article of the Faith is guilty of Heresie though he add not Obstinacy thereto to make him an Heretick So he that doth unwarrantably separate from the true Church is truly guilty of Schism though he add not Uncharitableness thereunto to denominate him a compleat Schismatick You may read the words if you will pag. 137. And afterward they tell you that to make a Rupture in the Body of Christ and to divide Church from Church and to set up Church against Church and to gather Churches out of true Churches and because we differ in some things therefore to hold Church-Communion in nothing this we think hath no warrant out of the word of God and will introduce all manner of confusion in Churches and Families and not onely disturb but in a little time destroy the power of Godliness Purity of Religion Peace of Christians and set open a wide Gap to bring in Atheism Popery Heresie and all manner of wickedness Thus they And how fast all this is a doing by your means who now will have no Communion with us in any thing because we differ in some things is apparent to all the world For the love of God and of the Church nay of your own Families consider of it in time and repent that so they may not be brought to utter Confusion but the Gap may be stopt which you have opened too wide already to Atheism Irreligion and all the rest of the Wickedness which comes powring in it self upon us Do not continue that Separation any longer which you have rashly begun lest you be found guilty of that very thing your selves which you condemned so much in others and profess is by all good men to be abhorred Read what I have now said over and over again and seriously lay it to heart lest your own Books be opened at the day of Judgement and Sentence be pronounced against you out of them Nay desire your Ministers to read it and to expound the reason to you why they should ssparate now more than Mr. Dod Mr. Hildersham Mr. Ball and such like did heretofore Intreat them to let you know how they excuse thewselves from the guilt not only of withdrawing themselves from our Communion which they call Negative Schism but also of making an head against us and drawing themselves into a distinct and opposite Body and setting up a Church against a Church which they call Positive and Schism by way of Eminency Ask them which of the four Causes of Separation they alledge to make their Departures from us necessary What we have done that should make it unlawful for them to communicate with us or rather How we have separated our selves from Jesus Christ and made him disown us If they be not able to give you very good satisfaction in this and in all the rest I hope you see what you are to do according to their own Advice and Counsel N. C. I suppose they will say that they are persecuted which will justifie their separation C. I cannot imagine what they should pretend unless it be this But bid them shew you what hath befalen them that should deserve that name And likewise shew that the Persecution is grievous nay intolerable for else they have told you it will not warrant
in them N. C. I know what you are going to infer But they will not yield that this Covenant was unwarrantable by the Laws of God and the Land and therefore they will not repent of it C. It was plainly against the Laws of the Land and those reasonable and good Laws from whence I conclude it was against the Laws of God which would have us obey humane Laws that do not contradict them and not combine together to destroy them N. C. They will never grant it was against the Laws of the Land and I think you cannot prove it C. Did they not Covenant to endeavour to preserve the Reformed Religion in the Church of Scotland in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government N. C. Yes it s the first Barnch of the Covenant C. And did they not next of all Covenant to indeavour to reform Religion in these Kingdoms of England and Ireland in all Points according to the Examples of the best Reformed Churches N. C. Yes C. Then they were bound to reform us according to the Pattern of Scotland For that Church must needs be the best Reformed which needs no Reformation as it seems the Church of Scotland did not being to be preserved by them just as it was N. C. What of all this C. Then I will prove they bound themselves in an Oath against the Laws of the Land For our Laws make the King Supreme Governour over all persons and in all causes But the Presbyterial Government as it was in Scotland and was intended to be here though it allow the King to be Supreme Governour over all persons as they are his Subjects yet will not subject all Causes to his Government because Christ according to the Discipline is the only spiritual King and Governour over his Kirk As much as to say they are subject onely to Christ in some things N. C. This is onely a Collection which you make from several things compared together in which you may be deceived Sure they never intended to set up such a Government here C. That you may not be left therefore to my uncertain Reasonings as you will esteem them in this particular You may be satisfied about the Mind of the Assembly if you be at all acquainted with the History of the late Times By that I am informed they intended to bring the same Government among us that was in Scotland And Secondly they thought the Parliament was obliged to set it up by vertue of the Covenant When these two things are proved I believe you will be of my mind that they took an Oath against the Laws and therefore ought not to persist in it but repent of it N. C. I shall be glad to hear them proved C. You must know then that the Parliament declared for Presbyterial Government and passed most of the particulars brought them from the Assembly without any material alteration saving the point of Commissioners as they tell us in a Declaration of April 17. 1646. N. C. What 's the reason it was not set up C. Have patience and I will tell you These ugly Commissioners stood in the way which the Assembly would not admit of as the Parliament would not admit of their Arbitrary Government N. C. Why do you call it so C. The title of the Declaration tells you that the intention of it is among other things to secure the people against all Arbitrary Government viz. in the Church which they spoke of before But that you may be sure of it they let you know when they come to that part of it which concerns Church-Government that the Presbytery challeng'd an Arbitrary Power which they could not grant The reason was because they would have set up ten thousand Judicatories within the Kingdom which should have had a supreme Authority over us in many things And this was demanded in such a way as they proceed to tell us as is not consistent with the Fundamental Laws and Government of the same and by necessary consequence excluding the Power of the Parliament of England in the exercise of that Jurisdiction This was the very cause as they farther inform us why they had settled no Government since their sitting because they could not subject themselves and the People of the Land to so vast a power as the Presbytery challeng'd which they tell us a little after would have been for the Civil Magistrate to part with some of his Power out of his hands Now before we go any farther I pray tell me who was the supreme Civil Magistrate then but the KING And how will you excuse these men from going about to rob him of a part of his Power and wrest it out of his hands N. C. Sure they did not Covenant to do this C. We shall try that by and by But that you may better know how they meant to go to work and to over rule the Supreme Power in many Causes you must understand these things That it being resolved by both Houses that all persons guilty of notorious and scandalous Offences should be suspended from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper the Assembly likewise resolved that these two Powers lay in the Eldership or Presbytery and only in them First the Power of judging and decluring what are such notorious and scandalous offences for which persons guilty Power out of his hands which is contrary to the Law of God And therefore they ought not any longer to hold themselves bound by it but rather should repent as they advise others to do in that case To sum up the whole business An Oath that is not warranted by the Laws of God and the Land ought to be repented of Your Ministers took an Oath not warranted by the Laws of God and the Land but contrary to them Therefore they ought to repent of it The former Proposition is their own The latter is partly theirs and partly the Commons of England For your Ministers expounded the Covenant as it obliged them to set up the Presbytery in an absolute Power and the Commons declared the exercise of such a power to be against the Fundamental Laws of the Realm and the Authority of the Supreme Magistrate I might add but that you little regard that His MAJESTY in his Proclamation declared it an unwarrantable Oath October 9 1643. And therefore do you and they see whether the Conclusion do not unavoidably follow and make a good use of it I beseech you before it be too late N. C. As Paul said to Agrippa that he almost perswaded him to be a Christian so I must say to you that you almost perswade me to be a Conformist and come to Church C. I wish as S. Paul said then that you were not almost but altogether such as I am I mean that you would not only come thither but with such reverence and seriousness as becomes the Service of God But to come and sit or â—oll or look about or whisper and talk as many do methinks is as bad as staying
a Separation and one thing more desire to learn of them which is whether those things that any of them have suffered be not the Effect and Punishment of their separation and not the Cause of it As for any Restraints the Law hath laid upon their Liberty they are nothing comparable to those that were laid on us when they were in Power and yet they will take it ill if they should be called Persecutors For if you look into an Ordinance of Parliament of 11. August 1645. for putting in execution the Directory you will find these words That if any person or persons whatsoever shall at any time or times hereafter use or cause the aforesaid Book of Common-Prayer to be used in any Church Chappel or publick place of Worship or in any private place or Family within the Kingdom of England or the Dominion of Wales or Port and â—own of Berwick every such person so offending â—herein shall for the first offence pay the sum â—f five pounds of lawful English money for the second offence ten pounds and for the third shall suffer one whole year Imprisonment without Bail or Mainprise Can you name me any Law now extant so severe and cruel as this was Do we abridge the poorest Tradesman so much of his liberty as then they would have abridg'd all the Nobles in the Land nay for any thing I see the KING himself at least his Family which were forbid the use of Common-Prayer under such great Penalties Are you not all allow'd to worship God just as you please your selves in your own Families Nay may not some of your Neighbours joyn with you if you and they be so minded For shame do not complain of Persecution when you are so kindly used who endeavoured in such a manner to oppress others And blush to think that you should separate upon this account which yet is all that you can have the face to pretend to excuse the Schism you have made The Common-Prayer you see was never imposed with such rigor as your Directory was And whereas you now take what liberty you list to preach and Write and print what you think good against the Common-Prayer it was then ordain'd that none should do so against the Directory or any thing contain'd therein which is a great deal more and in case any man was so bold he was to forfeit such a sum of money as should be thought fit to be imposed on him by those before whom he had his Trial provided it was not less than five pounds nor more than fifty Who should try him no body knew but he was sure to meet with little favour if the Directory-men met with him and were to handle him who would tolerate no Dissenters from them And their reason is given in the London Ministers Letter to the Assembly because they were bound by the Covenant to extirpate all Scism and to indeavour the Lord should be one and his Name one in the Three Kingdoms i. e. that all should subscribe to the Directory And there is another thing which to me seems something hard I am sure you ought to judg it so viz. an Ordinance of 2. June 1646. requiring that all people who were come to reside in the Parliament-Quarters should take the National League and Covenant and the Negative Oath notwithstanding any Articles that had been made by the Souldiery Why should you complain of the late Oxford Act as it is commonly called who could endure heretofore that men should be used so severely Compare that and this Ordinance together and tell me which of them is most moderate that which banished men out of many Counties or that which only prohibits their near habitation to a Town or two that which made void the promises which their own Officers had made or that which was against no ingagements at all I wish you would consider these things with a great many more of like nature for though your prejudices are strong I hope sometime they may serve to convince you And the mention of the Covenant just now brings a considerable thing to my mind which if it would not be tedious I would willingly propound and desire you to enquire about it N. C. I pray say on for your discourse begins to be pleasant to me C. I wish you would ask your Ministers why they themselves heretofore not onely approved of certain Ceremonies in the Worship of God but also were well pleased they should be enjoyn'd and yet now cry out upon our Ceremonies or at least would have them left at liberty N. C. What Ceremonies and Worship do you mean C. Was not the taking of the Solemn League and Covenant a piece of Religion N. C. Yes it was an Oath C. Read then an Ordinance of 2. Febr. 1643. ☜ and you will find it is ordain'd among other things that during the time that the Minister read the whole Covenant to the people the whole Congregation should be uncovered There is one Ceremony which now you will by no means indure should be imposed on you at the hearing of Sermons Then at the end of the Reading it they appoint that all shall take it standing There is another Ceremony And lastly that they should lift up their right hand bare That 's another if not two Ceremonies more For they enjoyn them to lift up the right Hand not the left and that it should be bare not covered with a Glove And this very Ordinance touching the Manner of the taking the Covenant they desired might be confirm'd by Act of Parliament as you may see in the Propositions sent to his Majesty at Newcastle July 11. 1646. Pray tell me if you can or else make enquiry why they did not leave men to their way and manner of doing this Religious Act seeing they would have no body tied to a Posture now in the Worship of God N. C. I will enquire For I know no reason of it C. If you please ask them another thing which is why they do not take their own Advice which they give about the Covenant For if they would the Covenant need not keep them from doing that which otherwise many of them profess they could do N. C. You must be at the pains to interpret your self for I know not what you intend C. The Parliament in the Ordinance now mentioned desire the Assembly of Divines to prepare an Exhortation for the better taking of the Covenant which should be read together with it Now in that Exhortation which was voted to be printed Febr. 9. 1643. the Assembly intreat the Episcopal Clergy who said they could not take the Covenant because it was against their former Oaths to consider this which is the thing I would have them consider now That if any Oath be found into which any Minister or others have entred not warranted by the Law of God and the Land in this Case they must teach themselves and others that such Oaths call for Repentance not Pertinacy