among brethren The assumptiō or second part of the former Argument is granted by the answerer answerer himselfe in his answer to the first Argument yea it is manifest by the good successe of their ministery from God in the sayd Argument mentioned Yea and that this argument from the blessing of God upon their ministery is of force and much to be respected appereth by the words of the blind man reported with commendation by S. Iohn This is a mervelous thing that ye know not whence he is and yet he hath opened myne eyes Now we know that God heareth not sinners but if any man be a worshipper of God and doth his will him heareth he And verse 33. If this mā were not of God he could haue done nothing Was this argumēt good from the opennyng of the eyes of the body of one that was borne bodily blind and is it not much stronger from the openyng of the eyes of the minde of many that are borne spiritually blind The further answer of M. Powel to this third Argument conteyneth nothing but that which is partely answered before and partly to be answered afterward Therefore I passe the same by and come to the 4 argument The Fourth Argument The Israelits so respected a bodily deliverance wrought by Ionathan for them that they saved him from danger of death Ergo Much more ought this Christian high Court of Parliament being not a company of rude souldiers but the cheife flower of this Realme and representing the whole Realme so to respect the spirituall deliverance of themselues and of many other wrought by the Ministers now silenced etc. That they speake what lawfully they may for all lawfull releefe of them against their troubles The marginall notes G. Powel a Ionathans case and the Schismaticall Ministers is altogether unlike And the urging of this zeale having not the like cause seemes to be dangerous But I spare my brethren The author urgeth not this argument from Ionathan as from a like example but from a comparison a minore ad maius from the lesse to the greater Therefore though there be not the like cause yet there being greater viz. From consideration of a spirituall deliverance there is no danger therin The author by this example moveth only the Parliament to be zealous for the saide Ministers Is there danger now in the zeale of so wise judicious an assembly It is also acknowledged by the answerer afterward that the Israelits did justly rescue Ionathan Is there any danger then by an example of them that did justly to provoke the wise Parliament to pleade with a wise and religious Prince for the Ministers Wherin then doth this answerer spare vs that seeketh every corner to find something for which he might if he could hang us G. Powel b The greater is their sinne whose superstition and wilfull obstinacy hath restrained their libertie and made them unserviceable in the Church Reply Is it not a strange thing I had almost saide sinne that it should be accounted sinne superstition and wilfull obstinacy yea such as makes men vnserviceable in the Church in feare of sinnyng against God soberly to refrayne from humane Ceremonyes and yet swearing swaggering rioting gamyng dronkennes whoredome adultry even in the sight of the world should not make men unserviceable etc That such things are in many suffred and countenaunced in the ministry is knowne to many of the Parliament house If his Christian Majestie were also rightly informed thereof I doubt not but that thinges would be otherwise ordered Further answer to the 4 Argument The Ministers did but their duety etc. If men should alwayes be so answered when in their necessities they should require some help and comfort in regard of some former kindnes would not men cōdemne such answerers of great ingratitude in humanitie viz. Thus to be answered that which you haue done was but your duety G. Powel Ionathans example is unlike unto the suppliants For Saule in hypocrisy had made a rash vowe etc. But the actions of our Soveraigne are not so exorbitant etc but advised and just etc. See how wise the children of this world are in their kind Reply The author altogether wisely and purposely as it seemeth concealed the name of Saule in the argument that he might reason from the comparison of the worke onely of Ionathan in a bodily deliverance for the better regard of the Ministers now silenced etc. In respect of the spirituall deliverance of the people by them This I say he doth without any mention at all of Saule that so the worke might be generally and simply respected in it selfe without any perticular eye unto Saule out of whose hāds the people delivered Ionathan He respected their thankefulnes in delivering Ionathan from death without respect of the person that would haue put him to death Agayne I know not why the answerer should thinke the author to meane rather our gracious King as answerable to Saule then the Prelats the cheife and principall actors in all wrongs and injuries done unto the Ministers pleaded for except that either he had rather impute all hard dealing to his Majestie than to the Prelats or that hereby he would provoke the more wrath against the author and all by him supplicated for whom before notwithstanding he seemed greatly to spare Further if the Israelits justly rescued Ionathan as the answerer confesseth they did iustly much more iust is it that many ministers should be releeved in their troubles If yet they presse the author further for meanyng Saule and comparing our King unto him as Saule was the Lords annoynted what is the danger wherein the answerer before should bragge of sparing his brethren Can he gather any undutifulnes towards his Majestie Or can he imagine the author to haue intended any forcible meanes to be used by the Parliament that sitting to make lawes against force and violence towardes any subject must therefore much more themselues be farre from offering any force and violence towards their Soveraigne Doe the words in the Argument to be Zealous and earnest import any such matter Force and violence of any especially of subjects against their Princes is rather of Popish fury and madnes then of any Christian zeale and earnestnes Besides the often most Honorable mention of his Majestie in the Arguments and his expresse pressing the Parliament to doe all in humility modestie in the next argument yea that they should not onely use boldnes but christian boldnes yea that they should put forth all their giftes and graces of knowledge Zeale compassion modesty and humility yea finally that in the preface he petitioneth nothing by him written to be understood of any other meanes then good honest lawfull peaceable and agreable to every mans calling All these things doe abundantly cleere the author from all undnetifull intent and meanyng against his Majestie That the Israelits did not in such humility speake for Ionathan to Saule as they should
carnall respects unto us such as you reckon is contrary to your often imputation of superstition unto vs. For what is superstition but to make that sinne that is not sinne and so to feare sinnyng against God as that we doe not that which lawfully we may do or one the contrary to make that good holy and necessary that is nether good holy nor necessary and so to think himselfe bound to doe that which well he might leaue undone If then we be superstitious and doe that which we doe in fearing to sinne against God how can such carnall respects as before are particularized be imputed vnto us But the truth is that these carnall respects doe belong rather to conformiry for which many will doe any thing rather then they will loose their livyngs Of how many also of them may it be sayd that they seeke their owne and not that which is Iesus Christs Philip. 2.21 Yea that their belly is their God their glory their shame and that they mind earthly things Philip. 3.19 that also with Diotrephes that loue to haue the preheminence 3. Ioh. 9. How many of that side haue receaved 500. or 600. pounds from their people since their last Sermon yea since their last presence amongst them Yea are their not some that buy sell benefices as men buye and sell horses Truely there are sōe that being not old mē haue in their dayes passed through many benefices and those of very good worth To whō then doth this imputation of carnall respectes belong Cease therefore cease M. Powell to charge us with that against which there are so many reasons Yea wherein all the world can convince you G. Powel They haue altered the state of the question For the question being about subscription Ceremonyes Conformitie etc. which are but thinges indifferent and of small moment they make it the cause of God the ministery of the gospell the salvation of the people the mayne cause of the land How doe we alter the state of the qvestion Doe we mince that which somtyme we held Answer Doe we goe from any thing which before we maynteyned What ever was in controversie betwixt you and us that is not comprehended under subscription or some other of the particulars by you here mencioned It is meere folly so often to repeate the indifferency of these thinges that hath never been neither can be proved by you For as much also as for not subscribyng and for not conforming to Ceremonyes etc. Many more are thrust out of the ministery then for any other matter of ten tymes greater moment may it not be truely called the cause of God Especially it being in so many bookes proved that they are unlawfull contrary to the word of God Yea sith for these thinges the word is restrayned may we not say that the salvation of the people dependeth therevpon And consequently that it is the mayne cause of the land What is greater then salvation Your selfe grant that we are Ministers of Christ in grace and favour with God It followeth therefore that our cause is the cause of God Luc. 10.16 Yea of the land also because besids salvation many other benefits doe depend upon the ministery of the word and many evills vpon the restraint thereof Prov. 29.18 For this cause the Apostle joyneth these two togeather in the Iewes that they were contrary or adversaryes to all men and forbad them to preach to the Gentles 1. Thessalonians 2. ver 15.16 Touching your often objection of our suspension and deprivation for not conformyng our selues consider this one thing M. Powell and consider it seriously viz. that whē as Iohn and some other Disciples tooke upon them to forbid one casting out Devills that had before done it in the name of Christ and that only because he would not joyne with them and follow them to Christ and that afterward whē they made relation unto Christ of that which they had done and of the reason why they had done it as though they had done some great service as many thinke they doe now great service in forbidding us to preach consider I say agayne that our Saviour was so far from approving that which they had done that he rather reproved it saying Forbid him not Mar. 9.38.39 Whether was a juster cause of suspention not to joyne with such worthy Disciples of our Saviour and that in following them and goeing with them to our Saviour himselfe or not to joyne with the Bishops to conforme our selues unto them in those things wherein we are perswaded we should sinne against Christ and in parte goe away from him For we follow not Christ neither walke with him any longer then we doe obserue his word Further also consider whether is a greater or at the least a better and more necessary worke to cast out Devills from their possession which they had of the bodyes of men or to cast them out from the spirituall possession they haue of the soul of men which eiection is wrought by the preaching the gospell Acts 26.18 G. Powel They make this such a cause as if all religion depended on refusing of a crose and furplice etc. No no. Answer All religion and piety doth not depend on these thinges Yet religion is the lesse and doth the more decay the more that the preaching of the gospell for thes thinges is restrayned The increase of sinne and iniquity in those places already where such Ministers are put out doth too much testifie this thing Heere againe is his former fallacy as eo quod est secundum quid ad id quod est simpliciter We say that some religion dependeth on refussing of a crosse surplice ete Hence he concludeth that all religion dependeth etc. Further whether we make all religion to depend on refussing a crosse surplice etc. or no it semeth that the Bishops make all religion or the most to depend on crosse surplice etc. For if a man yeeld to these things he may passe away with any other matter vncontrolled but if he stands in these things then he is unworthy the ministery whatsoever guiftes he haue how godly soever he be and what good so ever he haue done or might doe by his continuance Is it not so G. Powel They boldly presumptuously and unduetifully censure his Majestie for coldnes in religion for losing his first loue deepe dissembling seeming to pretend one thing and to intend another as if he had been trayned up in the Iesuits schooles to equivocat which fault I would some of their faction did so litle practise as his Majestie abhorres it Wheris there any such censure of his Majestie for coldnes Answer in religion for losing his first loue and for deepe dissembling Nay doth not the author expresly labour the quit contrary professing that he wrote that which he did to this very end that men might not iudge Christian Princes vpon outward apperences yea adding supposed apparences Yea wishyng also lesse censuring of
the officers thereof increased When were the Preists of the law of greater outward authority and tooke more upon thē then when the church of the Iewes touching true beuty was in worst case Serch the scriptures for they beare witnes heerof Yea were there ever so many degrees of dignitie in the Church and doe we ever reade of so great state and pompe of the Preistes in the former tymes as there was of the Preists Scribes Pharises at the first commyng of Christ And were ever things in so bad case before as thē they were So also sinc that the more that truth of doctrine and puritie of Discipline decayed in the Church after the golden and most glorious age of the Apostles the more did the Church grow unto and swell in outward riches pomp and glory Experience also teacheth that the more glorious Prelats are in their outward state the lesse benefite the rest of the Church hath by them because they take the less paynes at the least such paynes as are most agreable to the true Episcopall and ministeriall calling described in holy scripture Wherein then is the true glory of the Church 1 in such ministers of the word and other officers as Christ hath commended 2 In the performance of such dutyes by them as he requyreth that is in preaching the word faithfully in administring the Sacraments sincerely in praying zealously and aptly according to the necessityes of the Church and in executyng Discipline wisely and justly 3 In the effects of the former two viz in true knowledge faith loue zeale humility patience temperance righteousnes peace etc. Touching these thinges the more we want som of those officers that Christ hath cōmended by his Apostles to the Church and the more negligent those that we haue are in their duties the more lamentable it is to see the carved pillers of the temple broken downe and the faithfull workmen in Gods house to be cast out by whose labors it had been before built brought to some good bewty Touching the last what christian heart is so stony that it doth not mourne What eye so drye that it doth not shead teares yea rather gush out with teares to consider and behold the mesery of our supposed glorious Church by the spirituall nakednes blindnes poverty therof I meane the great ignorance the superficiall worship of God the fearfull blasphemies and swaringes in houses and streates so also the direfull cursings the open contempt of the word Sacraments the wicked profanations of the Lords dayes the dishonor of superiours the pride the cruelty the fornications adultryes and other uncleannesses the dronkennes the covetousnes the usuryes and other the like abominations almost as grevous as either heertofore in the tyme or now in the places of Popery when and where there was no preaching at all of the gospell O M. Powel and yee my Reverend Fathers and brethren in the ministery even of the conformable sorte flatter not your selues in this behalfe but behold and pity the wofull and lamentable stat of our Church in these things But to returne heerin you erre not a litle in that you confound the state of the Church and of the common wealth of the Iewes The Common wealth was indeed at that time in much misery But was the Church also amongst them for such thinges as wheerin cheifely consisteth misery in as bad condition Had they not those officers that God had prescribed Were the Preists and Levits either so ignorant or so idle or so scandolous as many called Ministers amongst us Were the faithfull and paynfull Preists and Levites so urged to the observation of mens traditions and Ceremonyes in the worship of God and otherwise so molested as now many godly ministers are Were the people so blind so irreligious so unrighteous as now they are Were the godly forced to heare dumme dogges or corrupt teachers Or restrayned from hearing of those that preached wholsome doctrine or urged to communicate with the Preistes in humaine Ceremonyes to the greife of their soules and wounding of their consciences as many now are The Lord giue you all such consideration of these thinges that yee may not so much labour for outward pompe preferments honors dignityes etc. As for the true felicitie of our English Ierusalem and Sion that God may build up the walles therof and still loue and delight therin G. Powel As Nehemiah having by prayer and fasting found favour with an heathen King for the building of Ierusalem was resisted and hindred by Sanballat Tobiah Geshem etc. So worthy Nehemiah in the beginning of our religious Soveraignes reigne finding grace for the continuance of the prosperous estate of our Church begunne in the dayes of our blessed Queene so many Sanballats Tobiahs and Geshems as there be refractary ministers and Papists deryding and despisyng us labor to hinder our ministery etc. The ods that before he spake of Reply now he maketh likes Is this to dispute ad idem and to the purpose Touching his worthy Nehemiah whom he compareth to auncient good Nehemiah let this be observed that although he speake of the prayer and fasting of the auncient Nehemiah yet he speaketh not of any prayer and fasting of his newe Nehemiah What may be suspected or noted heerin I leaue to the consideration of the wise and judicious reader that remembreth what opposition many of the Prelats haue alwayes made to true fasting and that also knoweth what be the thinges which men may safely commēd in prayer unto God especially for which they may humble themselues extraordinary in fasting before God Touching the Tobiahs Sanballats and Geshems whom fayne he would haue to be those that he calles refractary ministers as well as the Papists let him not deceaue himselfe heerin For the wise Christian readers are able to discerne thē to be most worthy of these nāes that striue most for mens precepts that study more to please men then God that preach not themselues and hinder them that would whose cheefe worke is not to encrease God his kingdome but to uphold their owne fearing nothing more then the downefall therof which also feed not the Lords people with the bread of eternall life but their owne bodyes with the meate that perisheth and with all carnall delights who care not to enrich the Lords people with durable riches that shall not be taken away but plod day and night to enrich themselues in this world and to build great house for their posteritie Such are indeed the Sanballats Tobiahs and Geshems that doe most oppugne the spirituall building of the spirituall Ierusalem Now although this answerer other not much vnlike those before described for a tyme reproch and scorne vs by such odious names and comparisons yea plough upon our backes and make long furrowes yet the righteous Lord in the end shall plead our cause against them and bring forth our righteousnes even as the mornyng Sunne it may be in this world that even