Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n
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A79438
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A theological dialogue: containing the defence and justification of Dr. John Owen from the forty two errors charged upon him by Mr. Richard Baxter in a certain manuscript about communion in lyturgical worship.
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Chauncy, Isaac, 1632-1712.
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1684
(1684)
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Wing C3757aA; ESTC R230946
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46,146
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50
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Error or Sin that every Saint suffers for J. O. But I believe the world begins now to be pretty well satisfied that all those things are not Errors or Sins which Mr. Baxter calls so and makes a great putther to prove so nor all those Truths or Vertues that he saith are Mr. Tombs a back-sliding Anabaptist was a great Saint in your Books And though you will not be of a Sufferers Judgment to justifie his Suffering you might forbear Espousing the Imposers and Persecutors cause and forbear persecuting with bitter words that comes not short of the others There are hard words and Speeches to be reckoned for one day R. B. To your Minor It is a gross mistake to say that going to the Lyturgy maketh the Refusers the only blameable cause of their own Sufferings what are you one that acquit all the Prosecutors J. O. You are so for you justifie the Law of which they are Offenders he that justifies a Law justifies also the due Executioners of it and therefore condemns the Sufferer as the only blameable cause of his Suffering A murderer is condemn'd and hang'd for Murder the Law is good the proâ—eedings against him just and due who is the blameable Cause of his own Suffâ—rings but himself R. B. But are there no Saints thâ—t go to Common Prayer J. O. Men may be Sâ—ints as you said not long ago and yet Engage in an unjust Prosecution and to joyn in Communion with them is to justifie their violences and passionate Mistakes as also condemn the Sufferers I wish such Saints as you speak of I mean they that separate not would give more proof of their Saintship to the world by separating at least from malice hatred and bitterness of words and actions yea such inhumanity that Turks would not boast of Papists blush to hear of afterwards but some Protestants your unseparable Saints plead for as the Ecclesiastical and Evangelical meritorious Righteousness by which they expect to be justified before God and man R. B. The Truth is Repentance is a hard work c. J. O. It is so but it s an easie thing to make a great splutter about it and lâ—y the Law very hard to others by Press and Pulpit Is there a man on Earth that will stand more upon his proud pretences and insulting too in the maintaining of manifest decryed Errors and Practises Therefore such Harrangues as these are might be spared for I know no body affected with them Claudius accusat c. Turpe est Doctori cum culpa redarguit ipsum Manuscript Arg. 8. That Practice which is accompanyed with unavoidable Scandal Engaged in only on the pretence of Liberty is contrary to the Gospel But such is our joyning in the present Pâ—blick Worship It were Endless to reckon up all the Scandals which will ensue that which respects our Enemies must not be omitted will they not think will they not say that we have only falsly and hyppocritically pretended conscience for what we do when we can upon outward considerations comply with that which is required of us Wo to the World because of such offences but wo to them also by whom they are given R. B. But in the first place take heed of offending Saints Now we must none of us hold communion with the Parish-Churches least some Saints that separate should be rendred false Witnesses of God and blameable J. O. I do not believe that ever a man that scoffs at holâ—ness and the Professors of it will be justified by his own works This and an hundred more Expressions in this Book had become another man more then Mr. Baxter Sir Do you know what Spirit you are of It 's so manifest I am moved in love to speak so plainly R. B. To the Major 1. It is not true when there is far more Scandal by for bearing that practice but only when there is less on the other side J. O. Well that is Answ Bellarmine thou ly'st and it must be so all the World cann't help Bellarmine in this case he is perfectly refuted Observe now how pretty the reason of the denial is It is not true that that practice which is accompanyed with unavoidable Scandal c. is contrary to the Gospel because there is greater Scandal by forbearing that practice 1. Do we talk of comparative Scandal 2. It s unavoidable with a witness if it lie on both parts of an indifferent actâ—on 3. It was always reckon'd hitherto by 〈◊〉 Divines that the forbearing a doubtful action had the least scandal in it but I must confess you are very safe for you say The Scandal is greater on the forbearing side only when there is less on the other side One stick is longer when the oâ—her is shorter This is now learnedly determined Mr. Doctor R. B. To the Minor It is not true That it is only Liberty that is pleaded for the Communion in question It is a great Duty i. e. of Union Concord Peace Obedience to Christ c. Avoiding of Schism and twenty Duties more Error 39. J. O. Mâ—st Dâ—sseâ—ters that afterwards have complyed have done it on the pretence of Liberty in matters of indifferency against that pretence we alledge the business of Scandal and the great danger of Scandal in matters of that nature which Paul lays such a Stress upon yea our Lord Jesus Christ himself in his Min stry annexing the greatest woes in the Gospel to Scandal Puh says this Gentleman here 's no danger of a Scandal in this case it is not a doubtful case it s our duty to comply a duty of Concord Love Obedience c. Well all that I shall say here is If any man be troubled and disquieted in mind about scruples of Conscâ—ence here is a Casuist will do their business beyond all Casuists before him or any Antinomians whatever For thoâ—e things that you the Divines you have consulted with have called siâ—s thousands have been disturbed and wounded in Conscience for doing of he will shew to be an eminent duty About the duties â—ere mentioned Enquiry may be made elsewhere if need require our Argument will stand fast enough without it at this time Manuscript Arg. 9. That Worship which is unsuited to the relish of the new Creature which is inconsistent with the Conduct of the Spirit of God in Prayer is unlawful for the Nature Vse and benefit of Prayer is overthrown hereby in a great measure Now let any one consider what are the prâ—mised Aids of the holy Spirit with respect to the Prayers of the Church whether as to the matter of them or as unto the ability of performance or as unto the manner of it and he shall find that they are all rejected and excluded by this form of Worship as is pretended comprizing the whole matter limiting the whole manner and giving all the Abilities of Prayer that are needful or required This hath been proved at large R. B. It is a mistake Error 40. That this form of
in all their Solemn Worship R. B. This Answer is not only a mistake but of an ill aspect on your self It 's not true That the use of Gifts is excluded in all the Solemn Worship of the Church As if Prayer Praise Thanksgiving Confession Explication of the Scripture Reproof Benediction c. Error 37. J. O. I admire at your boldness in these things what Gifts of the Spirit are used for Edification of the the Church in all the Service of the Church Is it Reading and an Audible Voice There can be no other Are these all that Christ gave to men for Edification when he ascended on high R. B. Indeed some Super-Conformists have said so but I hoped you would not J. O. Whatever Super Conformists and Half-Conformists say the truth is truth Do you think the meaning of the Apostle is when he saith Christ gave Gifts to men that he gave Liturgies to them with prescribed forms of Prayer Praises Confessions Benedictions c. If that be the meaning produce Christs Liturgy that he dropt down from heaven with these gifts in it and we shall with all Alacrity yield to that way of worship but see you bring good evidence for it R. B. 2. It hath an ill aspect if that Preaching and Pulpit Praying be none of the Solemn Worship of the Churches then all Churches that have not Liturgies have no Solemn Worship at all J. O. Non sequitur we say Pulpit-Praying is not any of the Service-Book Church Solemn Worship they are in that respect called the Prayers of the Church and if the Liturgy makes them none of its Solemn Worship doth it follow that they are not so or that other Churches doth not make them so R. B. If it be otherwise Parish-Churches excel you c. J. O. We envy them not we desire to excel in following Christ and walking according to his Rule we compare our selves no otherwise Manuscript Arg. 6. That which hath been and is obstructive of the Edification of the Church if it be in Religious Worship it is a false Worship for the end of all true Worship is Edification But such hath been and is the Liturgical Worship R. B. This is but the former repeated J. O. It is false it hath another Medium The Medium of the fifth Argument was A means humanely invented to exclude Christs means for the attaining his end viz. Edification This Medium is The bringing that which is obstructive i. e. apparently opposite and contrary to all pretences of Edification But the Major you grant R. B. To your Minor 1. Such is all your Errors all the disorder ill reflexions slovenly expressions which any weak Minister useth and the faults that all men have in some degree J. O. And that few go beyond you in instead of Reflexions you use Fractions by your Magisterial Club and of slovenly reviling Expressions if they be not slovenly they are as dirty as I have met with from a Minister of your Reputation but for your way of arguing the most illogical fallacious and full of pedantick Carping that ever was And all men that oppose you in your confidently asserted Errors must be stigmatiz'd with all reproachful names imginable If they be not for Justification by works then they are Antinomians if they be not for your Pye-bald Conformity then they are on one side Super Conformists and on the other Dividing Separatists and must have a sentence passed upon their Persons and Learning as Unstudied Divines Factious Schismatical Erroneous and this is all to promote love and Catholick Communion in the World Must you be the Infallible Dictator in all matters of Religion Is there no men living that have Reason Logick Theology but your self Are all the Divines and Schollars in England a company of pitiful Mushrooms to be treated so rudely by you if they dance not after your Pipe Yea it 's a sufficient Refutation of any Book if Mr. Baxter tells the world it 's a dangerous and Erroneous Book and why because it refutes his Errors And whereas you say You have answered Mr. Ralphson and slight Mr. Warner Dr. Sherlock c. Conformists and Nonconformists it 's neither your Principles nor way of Argument will refute either of them for it must be the Word of God and sound Arguments from it must take place with men of Conscience and Reason in these mattters not little shifting trifling Sophisms calling men Names condemning them for Unlearned and Unstudied Divines confounding clear words and truths with an hundred particulars divisions distinctions nothings till they are come to nothing calling Truth Error and Error Truth this is not the way to Peace nor Truth You are never like to die under the reputation of the Repairer of our breaches and the Restorer of our paths to dwell in unless you take another course for it then yet you have done Manuscript It puts an utter stop to the progress of Reformation in this Nation fixing bounds unto it that it could never pass 2. It hath kept Multitudes in ignorance c. 3. It hath countenanced and encouraged many in reviling and reproaching the holy Spirit and his work 4. It hath set up and warranted an Vngifted Ministry 5. It hath made great desolations in the Church first In the silencing of painful Ministers Secondly In the ruine of Families innumerable Thirdly In the destruction of Souls It is not lawful to be participant in these things yea the glory of our Profession lies in our Testimony against them J. O. Well what say you to these things Are they Truth or no R. B. I charge no Error here J. O. Truly the Church is much beholden to such a Champion R. B. But I have something to say to your Reasons J. O. Nay but I have nothing to say to you further in these particulars if you have no Error to charge them with I will leave them to defend themselves against others Manuscript Arg. 7. That practice whereby we condemn the suffering Saints of the present Age rendring them false Witnesses of God and the only blameable Cause of their own Sufferings is not to be approved but such is this Practice and where this is done on a pretence of Liberty without any Plea of necessary duty on our parts it is utterly unlawful R. B. The Major meaneth either Saints that suffer for well doing or ill-doing J. O. It doth so one of them besure who would have thought upon that fork But do you take the present Sufferers to suffer for ill-doing I 'll assure you you seem to insinuate your meaning pretty clearly by your Exposing in what you lay one that died in Prison as a blameable Cause of his own Sufferings and by many other Actions and Writings of the like Nature Take heed of adding affliction to the afflicted R. B. If the Anabaptists should be suffering Saints I would not be for Anabaptistry for fear of condemning them as the cause of their own Sufferings By that Rule I must own every