Selected quad for the lemma: cause_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
cause_n	pay_v	say_a	sum_n	3,002	5	8.9846	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A55293	Moses and Aaron, or, The ministers right and the magistrates duty vindicated from the exceptions made against both by Richard Kingsnoth, in a late book of his entitled, The true tything of the Gospel-ministers / by Daniel Pointel ...	Pointel, Daniel, d. 1674.	1657 (1657)	Wing P2741; ESTC R4455	113,893	137

Judas saying thus much I will have as if we may not be Masters of our own courtesies and define how much lesse then a due we will take without being worse then Judas the Priests Boy and the taking by force when a peaceable appeale to them who by God and man are appointed to end strife is only used Judas furnishing his table with what they freely gave not what will you give me should he so for what for selling of Christ all these are Ravings which become not a sober Christian Pen so men write when anger makes them weigh nothing but how they may bite deepest and most vex an Adversary But I am not angry at the indignity of your comparison much lesse shall I requite you railing with railing I tell you truely how I am affected with it I grieve at your sin and pity your inconsiderateness so I end your first reason only requesting you to remember that a Stinted maintenance is acknowledged by you to have been Gods own maintenance and you should take heed how you say that is a snare to coveteousness Second Reason P. 23. Because compulsion should not be an obstruction or hinderance to the Gentiles embracing the Gospel The Gentiles why not the Jews too put them both in the reason is the same but it touches not the cause The question is about a summe Stinted as you terme it not about the Ministers exacting the said summe and compelling the unwilling to pay men must first understand what the unsearchable Riches of Christ are before they be perswaded to part with their riches for Christ by any law general or particular of God or of man this is well expressed by you that Ministers must forbear their own power and lose their own right and all to make the people in love with the ways of Christ and this in challenging free contribution yea and any other maintenance 't is all one a commanded Stint unseasonably required would hinder the Gospel no more then a commanded free Contribution unseasonably required under penalty of damnation Put me in the Apostles case and if I then obey not the Apostles Example let me lye under reproof it were strange this to hear of Master Edgot and Master Preachers to the newly converted Indians that they converted maintenance from those they Preach to what is done for the support of such Ministers must come from other Churches and I hope does to them should I professedly forbear you in order to the making you in love with the wayes of Christ you are turned aside from would not you scorn the motion I did it to you for above three years and to many others to this day yet I see not that you are the nearer to repentance for it Third Reason Because that should be a badge by which Christ will have his Church known even their willingness this with all its proofs is answered already the willingness of Christs Subjects consists not in having no Command but in a free ready obedience to the Command for the other to call that the badge of Christs Subjects is no reason is the very question between us P. 24. Fourth Reason Because it should be a band of love still between Ministers and people it will be hard to prove that a maintenance determined breaks love no though by the Laws of man but of that hereafter and as hard to prove that the maintenance undetermined would remedy all by no means for will not the charging them with their duty in general that the Minister have a portion under the penalty of damnation telling them else they have not that Faith that works by love and that their Faith will not availe to Salvation and this continually urged up●n them till they repent anger them that love their money too well aswel as if we Preached yea sued for any maintenance determinately Let this present maintenance be taken away and people left to maintain their Ministers by free Contribution out of the nine parts remaining this being diverted to other publick uses then suppose me but in a low degree covetous and what will they do what contentious questions about what Ministers may live upon what apparrel he his Wife and Children must wear what services his Children must be put to to ease the Church what Servants he must keep in his Family what Diet at his Table what he may lay out upon Books what Portion he may give with a Child what to the Poor A hundred such contentious questions which when they shall come to be scanned by the Church will make as much work for strife as the heart of the Devil can wish For when the matter is brought before the Church what must they do why they are according to God to determine it and according to rule so the reverend and holy Hooker this is not according to the mind and heart of the Giver Survey St. 3. P. 31. no though Church Contribution be a free will-offering in regard it should willingly and with a ready heart be tendred unto God yet neither in the Old Testament P. 37. nor under the New the thing it self nor yet the measure of it was left to a mans own dispose or liberty then according to the heart of God it must be determined and not according to the heart of man but what is that proportion that is according to God and according to the Rule if a tenth the cause is ended if any other we would gladly see it if none how is this like to be determin'd according to God and according to the Rule general bounds are hardly hit at when it comes to particulars in defining either to the Minister his double honour or to the Brother his ability and this will be much more difficult when we consider what the end of this Church proceeding must be to the peremptory Refuser excommunication for refusing this particular proportion defined by the Church but now here defined by God It is safely therefore advised to prevent such a Scandal that it may not come by each mans knowing his proportion what he should do before he do it and it is as safely practised in most of the Churches Boston excepted that when these proportions will not be taken notice of that the Town determines the matter by destraining not the Church by excommunicating and well that too only it would more cut off all contradicting strife to bottome the destraint upon a determination of Gods not of mans it would doubtless if it were so determined in all 〈◊〉 the lesse is left to mens private determinations the more are al doors to strife stop'd all men know their own and all are contented or must be whether they will or no. And indeed that we may close this third Proposition by confronting reason with reason even for a special particular determination and not onely a general one opposite to the mind and heart of the giver It seemes hard to be believed that ever God should now at last

with such jeers as this or which they please to gnash their teeth I say no more to this businesse then thus much That Ministers and Subjects are the same persons though under different Relations both in the duties that belong to each agreeing very well together and no good subject can from the supposition of the one infer the denial of the other It is the very Argument upon which Papists ground the Exemption of their Priests from the Jurisdiction of Princes Pray do you forbear it lest you make your self as bad a subject as they P. 17 13. If it be Civil or Common it may be done or left undone till the Magistrate compell it and then it must be done What strange work have we here a Civil or common thing who would joyn those two words together to signifie one and the same thing but my Neighbour especially when the common thing is explained by a thing indifferent which may be done or undone till the stamp of Authority set upon it make it necessary What are all Civil things such that Ministers maintenance must needs be such among the rest if it come under a civil Sanction Well fare your heart however when you acknowledge that the stamp of the Magistrates power added to indifferent things makes them necessary But hath the Magistrate no power to set the stamp of his Authority upon things necessary Are all things that come within his reach such as may be done or left undone till he make Lawes about them I had thought that the great work of the Judicial Lawes was to be a fence about the Moral and that the main work of Magistrates was To be a terrour to evil doers and to be for the praise of them that doe well the Rule of which doing well or ill is the Law of God The best excuse for these things is that you wrote at random and mended not what you wrote And that will further appear if we take notice that this very foul mistake does most dangerously wound that very cause for which it is asserted For is it not your Doctrine That the determinate proportion of what is to be paid to Ministers is nowhere commanded by God if so then though a maintenance is due yet this or that proportion is indifferent may be done or left undone and another chosen Will not now the resolution of this quota pars according to your very rule belong to the Magistrate as a thing indifferent The Consequence then to be heeded will not be if Magistrates please Christs Ministers shall have a maintenance and if they so please they shall have none But if Magistrates please they shall have this maintenanance in particular or if this please not another the determination of which indifferent thing supposing it so to be some men think will better become a faithful upright Magistrate then the very best of our people who are the persons must pay what is so determined I hope we shall hear of this Argument no more which is apparently false and destructive to civil government in the proposition and in the consequence cuts the throat of that cause for which it is produced P. 11. In the last place Scriptures are produced against compulsion as they which hinder the Gospel and make it chargeable to which purpose are alledged 1 Cor. 9.15 16 17 18. 2 Cor. 9.7 and 2 Thes 3.8 9. All which places speak not of the Magistrates power in making Lawes P. 23. but of the Ministers duty of remitting his maintenance due any how from a people whether by a Law of mans or by the free contribution of the people your self acknowledge they do immediatly concern this so are not at all material to our persent question for they are two things The stating of a mans right by Law which we speak of now And the recovery of those rights so stated by him whose they are They are just Lawes by which a Landlord may recover his Rent of his Tenant yet there may be many cases wherein the Landlord may abuse his power in the use of it to the hinderance of the Gospel So is it in an higher degree here Yet he that would make Pauls example even as himself commends it to the Elders of Ephesus who were not so far as we know extraordinarily gifted nor did receive help from other Churches so far as we know both which are considerable differences in Pauls example had need consider well that he make the cases alike Acts 20.34 35. He must suppose a people newly brought to the Faith of Christ a Minister contesting with false Apostles whose glory it was to preach freely Where note Neighbour That it is the character of a false Apostle to Preach taking nothing and of it to glory and a Minister enabled by skill in an ingenuous Trade to earn his bread without destroying his bodily health 2 Cor. 11.12 Where no publick maintenance is already set apart for this Service which is the Ministers propriety and no mans else this is our case but was not Pauls P. 9. Acts 18.3 nor the Elders of Ephesus We covet no mans silver but allow every man to take a moderate share in what is ours and allow it most contentedly without grudging it them For my part God knowes my sincerity Whether this be not beyond Pauls Example let others judge And yet then when the cases are made the same if it were possible what would Pauls Example binde to onely thus much to deny our selves in the possession and use of our Right upon weighty considerations for the Gospel sake not in the right and title that was eagerly stood to by him and not denied by them Now it hath been the matter of Right hath been in question between you and I not the exacting of the use of this right where it is acknowledged and this is none of mine the Apostle durst not give up his right to a maintenance neither dare I to this Adde as the Close of all that whereas 2 Cor. 8. and 2 Cor. 9. are chiefly alledged against a constrained maintenance by the Civil Magistrates Authority they doe directly belong to provisions for the poor onely by consequence if at all of that above provisions for Ministers Now if the Magistrate determine any thing as to us whom the places concern not but by consequence you obey not whereas if the Magistrate determine any thing as to the poore of whom the places alledged speak directly you resist not so far as ever I heard none of you Now what perversness is this Consider your wayes I have with most punctual exactnesse considered all that hath the least shew of a reason against the Power and Duty of the Civil Magistrate The Lord help you to a clear understanding to discern the exceeding emptiness and insufficiency of them and to an humble heart that you may be willing upon so plain and full a discovery to lay aside your Errour The matter is of very

given what would you have more the Donation does not confound it self neither does your confused writing nothing to the purpose confound it But we claime it as a free Gift True you told us so P. 10. P. 12. but were sensible it seems of your wild running away from it in that and the next Page so now you will return to it no not now neither 't is a Bears ear he dares nor touch it then I have no right to it Luc. 12.42 Hebr. 13.17 24. 1 Cor. 16.16 1 Tim. 4.11 but as a Rector be it so as a Rector I clame it what is this Doctrine new to you Ministers are Servants 2 Cor. 4.5 but for Jesus sake and they are Rulers too their Rule is Ministerial they have an high merciful end for which they serve and they Rule by directing and commanding to that way which leads by Gods appointment to this end Then I dare trust an old the elder the better Title Popes Donation Popes man their own who were ownes of the Land is it not so in your Plea as your self relate it but three Lines before Then Christs Ordination why we speak now of Free-gift is not that Christs Ordination Now being put from your Divine Plea not by your reasons I assure you but be it so we now speak of Donation I pray tell me what proportion it is but the Free-gift of the Giver you have told the world twice 't is that very thing we speak of did you ever find it a tenth by Christs appointment why You have told men but just now we are put off from our Divine Plea this is to stand and crow over us a while after you have beaten us from that ground with come hither again if you dare you see I have ventured however but pursue your Victory you see we have taken field again upon another ground that of Free-gift I pray be not offended I pray take it in good part now speak to the business honestly and fairly and I will not be offended but this is tiresome though not the first time you have exercised my patience if not by the Law of God again that will you never have done conquerings Nor by the Gift of indulgent Princes we proclame it by the Gift of indulgent Princes and people and your self have told the world as much for us twice already what is it you now answer to but this but by some old Popish Statute I tell you we have done with Statutes now Popish or not Popish t is Free-gift we speak of After Austins coming into England tenths were not required but Free-gift was the only maintenance man t is that you are now pressed with Free-gift and that of Tenths we prove it from about those very times Watch men blind and in those dayes could but read a Homily in those dayes Austins did they read in the Book of Homilies then and what if they did then or since what 's this to Donation Yet now must they rather turn back again as it were into Egypt for onyons and garlick then to feed upon Manna the Lords Free-gift Why 't is that very Manna we plead for the Free-gift you speak of Therefore thus to your Paper For shame you should not have mentioned such a word who have not printed it when you pretend to answer it you might have put it easily into the empty page But what to my Paper It was Christs Prerogative to provide for his house he hath so done and changed his Ministers wages into a Free-gift and not Tithe into a free-gift of Tithe let it passe so now Twice you have told men so that thus we plead and do not you yet know it your self Yet you have not done your wandrings next come exceptions against Lawes Civil for the recovering of Tithes be it a carnal reasoning to say if a Minister may not sue he may starve What 's this to Free-gift A Free-gift may be sued for as in the case of Legacies P. 13. Is it not strange all things considered well you are a very considerate man but what is so strange that ever National Teachers should desert the Church of Rome and yet love the Diana of Tithes so much You that have considered all things tell us but one reason why this should seem strange But 't is a Free-gift we love 't is that we now stand upon your Diana if that word please you so well Rome would not trust Princes with such a thing and truly it seemeth to me that this is that the National Teachers mainely want to be not only Bishops but Lord Bishops No no oh dispute not against that that cause will not now trouble you you have another before you he changed it into a Free-gift the very thing we speak of He left it not to the pleasure of Magistrates then his faithful Ministers should hardly get a Livelyhood yes by Free-will Offerings as well the Magistrate neglecting his duty as if we suppose him to have none at all But we trouble not Magistrates now 't is the Free-gift we speak of Then the lying story a most impudent slander comes in of me and my Predecessor of which before Nothing at all to the Donation for four pages after an Answer to this Plea was undertaken Reader I relate not all this for the considerableness of what is said by him or reply'd by me nor yet to make my self and my Reader sport to refresh us in a debate of seriousness there needs no fool in the play here But this I relate it for that my Neighbour may see how little he hath said to the business against the only foundation I gave him for my Right in Tithes and that the world may see that notwithstanding any strength in his Reasons against my plea we needed not have troubled our selves to print nor others in reading what we have printed But you have done your wandrings and now you come the third time to the business You have played off and on long enough you will fasten now What say you now you have spent four pages in roming about and now you come to it You cut us off at the end of the four with six lines and then easily conclude I hope you will now desist Why the strength of your whole Book should have been bent upon this to overthrow this Donation You know it was my only Plea to you and you confess as much this you could not yield to would venture any thing rather then pay upon this ground And are six lines enough for that which hath so great a stroke in the whole Cause Were I as censoriously addicted as your self I should from these things infer that Faction and Emulation that you may seem stout as well as others hath carried you on in this Cause against your Conscience But I doe not so judge you the Lord help you to judge your self and to be contented to shame your self for your many miscarriages in this matter by an humble