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A56660 A friendly debate betwixt two neighbours, the one a conformist, the other a non-conformist about several weighty matters / published for the benefit of this city, by a lover of it, and of pure religion.; Friendly debate between a conformist and a non-conformist Patrick, Simon, 1626-1707.; Wild, Robert, 1609-1679. 1668 (1668) Wing P798; ESTC R41393 117,976 250

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same time that this was only commanded concerning that Countrey and that there is no proof can be made that there were any innocent Books there imploy'd in their Idol-worship No we conclude rather all were Superstitious and Idolatrous in themselves and such as could never be imployed in Divine Service It is true at last he comes to remember us that in the New Testament we read the Christian Converts burnt their Curious Books Act. 19.19 But what is this to the Precepts he promised to shew us given to the Israelites And what is this to the business of Prayer-Books Nay why did he not shew us the Innocence of these Books and prove that Conjuring was a very harmless Art N. C. I wish you would have done with this Book of his which I think in one sense is innocent enough and will do no harm among considering people C. I am content to make an end for I fear I have been too tedious But it was out of a desire to examine seriously whether there were such force as he conceives in this Engine to batter down all the Fortifications that they who preside in the Church or their Assistants can erect in defence of the abused Scandalous things as he calls them which with so much zeal we contend for viz. the Liturgy and Ceremonies They are his words in his Epistle N. C. He tells you a little after that he will not offer to impose his belief on others Let every body read and then do as he finds cause C. I commend his Ingenuity and Modesty only I wish his Zeal was a little less in this matter and that he would not think himself and others ingag'd to endeavour to the utmost of their power the Extirpation and abolishing of the Liturgy For what is this but to impose his belief upon us as much as he is able in his place Doth he only offer his Reasons who solicites and perswades and intreats men to promote his Design Doth he leave others to judge who ingages their Affections and stirs up their Passions as if the Cause were already decided according to his mind This it is to be zealous to advance a private Opinion He meant it 's like as he spoke when he told us in his Epistle that he expected and desired 〈◊〉 more but that we would candidly weigh th● case but his zeal made him forget himself and earnestly beseech us to be up and doing as if judgment were already given on his side This I make no doubt was the thing that put him so much beside the Cushion as to make him magnifie the Purity of those Doctrines which in sober thoughts he saw were of pernicious consequence And I would willingly think it was nothing else that made him only pass his word that the Liturgy is one of the things that God would have laid aside without any Proof of it For whatsoever he or the Assembly have been pleased to say no body ever made an Idol of it or were guilty of adoring it These are but a kind of Conjuring Phrases and Magical words which make a great Sound and astonish the silly people but signifie nothing save only this that men care not what they say to serve their cause And therefore I hope you will not be afrighted by such Bug-bears but come and do your Duty to God and man both together in joyning with us in Common-Prayer N. C. I will consider it as I have told you more than once But I have had the less mind to come to it because after it is done your Minister prays so coldly himself C. That is he doth not put himself into a Sweat But are not his words lively and apt to warm the Hearts of those who attend to them N. C. Methinks not And beside his Sermons that follow are very dull and nothing comparable to ours C. Now you are got again to the Hole from whence I did drive you a good while agoe you run in a Circle of discourse and are returned thither where we first began But since I have followed your motions thus far I will ask you this question Why do you not rather think your self dull than him N. C. Because I am not dull in other places and yet was so at your Church C. You may be in the fault for all that For perhaps you was disaffected to his Person or to his method of handling things or you had a greater Kindness for some other and then though S. Paul himself should preach you would be apt to prefer that man before him N. C. No methinks his matter is dull and flat C. Why what did you hear him treat of N. C. I heard him preach about the necessity of Obedience to the Laws of Christ And there he told us how we must do as we would be done unto and love our Neighbours as our selves and forgive Injuries and make Restitution of ill-gotten Goods with a great many other such like things which every body knows already And yet he spent I know not well how many Sermons about these common matters C. Does every body know these things say you The greater shame then that they live not according to them I am afraid they are not sensible of the necessity of these things about which a man of any understanding and seriousness cannot well speak and be flat and dull I much suspect that you even set your self to sleep or suffered your thoughts to run to other matter or fell a reading in your Bible as I have seen some do when he begun to treat of such Arguments as these thinking that you was little concern'd in them N. C. I must confess part of what you say For when I come to Church I look not for Moral but Christian Doctrines C. How now Do you oppose Morality and Christianity Is not the former a part of the latter I mean doth not the Christian Religion teach us the highest Morality N. C. No I think it doth not meddle with it C. Then you talk of this as you do of many other things without understanding Pray what is Moral Doctrine N. C. Do you tell me if you please C. I always took it to be that Doctrine which teaches us how to regulate our manners that is to order and govern our actions or our whole Behaviour in this World Now I appeal to any man that reads the Gospel whether this be not the very design of it to teach us to live soberly righteously and godlily N. C. Is this morality C. Yes that it is And therefore I said that Christian Religion advances Morality to the greatest height because it gives us the best and most excellent Motives to live soberly righteously charitably and piously in this World N. C. For all this I think it were better if Jesus Christ were more preached C. Still I see you deceive your self and trouble the world with Phrases Doth not he preach Jesus Christ that preaches his Doctrine If you doubt of it you shall
IMPRIMATUR Nov. 7 1668. Tho. Tomkyns Reverendissimo in Christo Patri ac Domino Dom. Gilb. Arch. Cantuar à Sacr. Dom. A Friendly Debate Betwixt two Neighbours The one A CONFORMIST The other A NON-CONFORMIST About several weighty matters Published for the benefit of this City by a Lover of it and of pure Religion Prov. 15.32 He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul but he that heareth reproof getteth under standing To the Reader Reader DO not throw away this little Book as soon as ever thou meetest with something that offends thee but sit down rather and consider upon what account thou art offended If it be onely because the Author contradicts thy Opinions and perhaps accuses them of folly thou hast cause to turn thy displeasure from him upon thy self for presuming so much of thy own infallibility which if thou wilt not pretend unto then read on further and consider whether he contradicts thee with reason or without and howsoever it prove thou wilt not repent thee of thy pains For if he reprove thy Opinions without reason thou wilt be more confirmed in them if with reason thou maist exchange them for better It is possible indeed that some things may seem to be expressed too tartly and severely and others too lightly and merrily but let not that put thee out of humour neither nor make the reason which is offered less considerable For the Author I can assure thee hath no gall in him nor was in any passion when he write these things but intended onely as naturally as he could on a sudden to express such Discourse as Neighbours are wont to have in their private conversation in which if there be nothing that is smart or pleasant they can scarce keep one another from sleeping He is very well aware under what great prejudices we all labour and considers how hard it is to dispossess an Opinion though false nay ridiculous which a man hath suck'd in with his mothers milk and which hath been impressed on him by education confirmed by custom much encouraged by the consent and practice of those with whom he daily converses and hath perhaps his complexion and natural temper to befriend it and incline him to it Vpon such considerations as these he cannot be angry with those against whom he writes but rather pities them and is sorry they consider not such things themselves and so repress that heat and passion wherewith they advance their own private late inventions against publick Decrees and ancient Constitutions One sort of men he confesses are apt a little to move his indignation who pretend to the greatest niceness of conscience and have handled the matter so as to b● thought the most religious of all others and yet make no scruple to do those things continually which are utterly contrary to good conscience So I believe an understanding Heathen or Turk would resolve were he made judge in the case and had first their Principles and then their Practices laid before him Such the Author thinks deserve to be rebuked and if there be any thing spoken with sharpness in the ensuing Discourse it is when he hath to do with them Yet in that case he hath used due moderation not studying to vex men but onely to awaken and convince them For he is very sensible that when we go about to displace any Opinion and introduce another in its room we usually lose our labour if we either fail to propound our mind dexterously or use not such meekness as may shew we have a good will to those from whom we differ Where these are wanting instead of inviting men to receive a Truth we find they are commonly further alienated from it Now he hath some confidence he is not much defective in the first having taken care to express his mind clearly and in plain words and contrived his Discourse into the form of a Dialogue to make it more easily apprehended As for the Later he cannot but think that he hath done his duty and testified his kindness every where even to those against whom thou mayest think him most severe But if thou judgest otherwise then he earnestly beseeches thee to overlook it and pass it by as an inconsiderate and hasty expression and to weigh rather what Truth is here presented to thee than in what manner it is delivered In short If it had not been to fill up some vacant pages he had made almost as short a Preface as those words of the Son of Sirach according to which he expects the success of his labour Ecclus. 21.15 If a skilful man hear a wise word he will commend it and add unto it but as soon as one of no understanding heareth it it displeaseth him and he casteth it behind his back Examine all things and judge righteous judgment Octob. 20. 1668. A Table of the principal matters contained in this Discourse THe occasion of it pag. 1. All are not Christ's Ministers who pretend to it 2 3. Of powerful Preaching 4 5 15. Of spiritual Illumination 6 c. The great proof of Christian Religion is the Spirit 9 10. Of Spiritual and Logal Preaching 11 c. Of the necessity of Good works to our justification 13 14. Who are the most Soul searching Preachers 16 17 c. Vpon this occasion Mr. Watson's late Book of Repentance is a little examined 20 21 c. Mr. Bridges his Ten Sermons considered especially that about the Difference between New Testament spirit and Old Test spirit 25 26 c. By what means this whole Nation came to be over-run with folly 34 Mr. Bridges one of them that helps to continue and increase it 35 unto 40. Of Spiritual Preachers 40. c. Of applying Promises 43 44 c. Of Experimental Preachers 47 c. Foolish Application of Scripture 49 51. A Comparison between the discreet Conformists and the mon-conformists 54. Of the Seal that some pretend God hath given to their Ministry 55. Who are the most guilty of being Time-servers 57 c. The Annotations commonly ascribed to the Assembly men say nothing of Sacrilege 59 c. Several other instances of Men-pleasing 64. Of forsaking Principles 66 c. None more guilty then they that accuse others of it 68 unto 79. Of the calling of the present Ministers of our Church 79. Of praying by the Spirit 89 to 92. Pretence to it hath brought Religion into contempt 87 c. Concerning a Form of Prayer 93 c. Of the Common Prayer 97 c. That some things may be done concerning the Worship of God which he hath not expresly commanded 101 c. That the enjoyning things indifferent makes them not unlawful 104. All do not think our Forms of Prayer and other Orders unlawful who speak against them or suffer others to do so 110. Of Will worship 113. None more Superstitious then they who seem most afraid of it 117 c. The reason men are no more affected with a good Form of Prayer 120