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A88800 Replies made to the antiqueries of Thomas Lye, who writes himself minister of the Gospel at Chard. Wherein the parish-minsters, call, and maintenance, and divers other matters now in controversie, are handled and debated, by H.L. a friend to the people of God called Quakers. Lavor, Henry. 1658 (1658) Wing L628; Thomason E934_2; ESTC R207677 54,307 76

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The penalty of not eating partaineth to them all whatsoever they be who being whole and able of body and speciallie wanting food rayment of their own do yet think it matter of fowl disgrace to them to work in some honest calling though Paul and other Ministers so have done but chose rather to live after the manner of Drones by devouring the fruits of others labors and cost like as did also their Predecessors the false Priests and Prophets of old time who did eat of the fat and cloth themselves with the wool not sparing the flock Ezek 34.3 As concerning those of our partie name who they be that wander and labor not Wnder indeed did the Saints and Ministers of God in old times and that very * Heb. 11.9 poorely arrayed and not sate they still in a † Wander indeed they might that long enough before they found it too fat Benefice in the glory of the world and the friendship thereof as the Ministers of Mammon in these times do Of these things also elsewhere section 77 T. L. Whether there is no labor but that which is handy c. Answ With you it is some labor to invent and write your Sermons which after ye may recite to the people for money or moneys-worth a practice utterly unknown to the ancient Ministers of the Gospel save what they had read in the old Testament touching the false Priests and Prophets there reproved for this very cause section 78 T. L. And whether hath not the mind its labor and that even to defatigation Answ Think ye that Paul Silvanus and Timotheus with the rest of Christs true Ministers went not so far in the labor and travell of the mind as any of you And yet for all this did they not omit much lesse did they scorn to labor with the body also for sustenance of the outward life as none of you ordinarily do Of this more at large elsewhere section 79 T. L. Whether Paul doth not judge labouring in the word and Doctrine to be labor 1 Tim. 5.17 And our Saviour saith The Laborer is worthy of his hire Answ Though Paul did indeed so judge as is supposed in this quere yet letted not this but that he used handy labor too and that night and day earnestly pressing and exciting withall other Ministers to follow such his example For our Saviours saying cited in the quere it is plain that he here by alluding to or alleadging the case or right of a laborer in respect of his hire as being a master notorious and of all men confessed insinuates only the like equity and reasonableness of his Apostles taking necessary supply of food and rayment of them they should Minister to in the Gospel There being a certain portion and parity of reason between the one the other in this behalf And in no wise doth he mean or imply that his Apostles should or might lawfully be hired even as a laborer to preach for money or like reward or that they might or would preach and teach for sake of the same for so should he altogether cross and oppugne aswell what himselfe hath said Iohn 10. by way of noting and condemning the Hireling Sheepherd as also the many and vehement testimonies born against this mercenary Teaching by the holy Prophets and his own Apostles But were the matter even so here as the Quere seemeth to take it yet ought the laborer in such case to require take his hire of them who hire him for whom and to whose benefit he laboreth and not of others who hire him not who refuse reject and detest both his labor as vain and fruitless and himselfe as a counterfeit and deceiver See also §8 section 81 T.L. Whether Ministers are not to give attendance to reading to meditate on those things And whether 't is possible for them so to do at least to give themselves wholly to them and yet follow handy labor 1. Tim. 4.13.15 Answ Both Paul that so adviseth and Timothy so advised did yet notwithstanding their many travels offices pertaining to their Ministry and the meet discharge thereof work with labor and travel night and day that they might not be chargable to any c. And this beside other causes To make themselves an ensample to others to follow them c. Ministers not excepted with this command also or penalty rather That if any would not work neither should he eat Afterward they note such as walk disorderly not working at all whom they command and exhort by the Lord Jesus Christ that with quietnesse they work and eat their own bread 2. Thess 3.7.8.9.10.11.12 By these things it doth appear how much Paul and Timothy whom yet you have avouched for your Patrons do befriend your idle cause See elsewhere section 82 T. L. Whether Pastors and Teachers are not to waite on their office and whether handy labor be not a means of distraction and hindrance to the laboring in the word and Doctrine c. Answ Did not Paul Sylvanus Timotheus and the rest laudably waite on their office yea did they not better waite on their office then the best among you And yet did they this notwithstanding put their hands to labor as is a foresaid Neither is such handy labor more a distraction and hindrance to Christs true Ministers now then it heretofore was But and if I should grant the thing to be so as the quere would have it yet would it not straightway follow to be lawful that to releive their necessities arising by their not working and waiting on their office they may begg or take a way other mens goods especially theirs who make no part of their Flocks to whom they sowe no spiritual things nor plow nor thresh nor any labor take except to do them mischief and harme section 83 T. L Though they had an extraordinary spirit to assist them c. Answ Are there more holy spirits then one as this quere seems to imply The Scripture saith There is but one spirit Eph. 4.4 And again There are diversities of gifts but the same spirit 1. Cor. 12.4 If so it be what mean ye then by extraordinary spirit Now seeing there is but one holy spirit and this the Apostles had let the Reader then judge what a spirit yours is which is not the same which the Apostles had but some other Say ye that I wrong you by such a Deduction what else do your words import If the Apostles had an Extraordinary spirit and you have not this extraordinary spirit then have you not the same spirit as they had but either another or none at all But if ye Retract and affirme that ye have the same spirit indeed as the Apostles had also but not in that extraordinary measure as they had it Mine Answer then is shew it by the fruits proper unto it Gal. 5.22 Also I ask if your spirit be fallible or infallible If fallible then not Gods spirit If infallible How cometh it
be called Masters as Teachers Eph. 4.11 Overseers Act. 20.28 Rulers 1 Tim. 5.17 Embassadors 2 Cor 5.20 Masters of the Assemblies a wise Master-builder Ans 1. It 's a kinde of incongruity in speech to call him Master who is their Minister that is servant This concerneth your respective Parishioners whose Ministers you say you are Ans 2. To these holy wise and spiritual Ministers these names and appellations did indeed belong But what is this to your Fraternity Those you said a little before were assisted with an extraordinary spirit which was indeed the very ground and foundation that verified all these denominations and titles above recounted yet notwithstanding was it not usual for Paul or other Apostles to whom yet these titles truly agreed to be called in familiar conference Teacher Paul Overseer Paul Ambassador Paul c. wherefore these things make nothing at all to your justification who require to be called Master John or Master Thomas even in common speech section 97 T. L. Did not Paul exhort his hearers to be perfect and would not he have blushed to have affirmed himself to have been perfect Phil. 3.12 13. Was Paul therefore like the Scribes and Pharisees that said but did not Ans This even the blind Papists could see and acknowledge Eng. Col. at themes Annot. on Phil. 3.12 There was a measure or degree of perfection which Paul was not then come to toward which he yet pressed c. yet this letteth not but that he was even then also perfect that is to say in a lower degree And thus much in effect he blusheth not to imply a little after saying Let us therefore as many as are perfect bee thus minded See more of this before touching perfection Neither ought we at all times in the things of God to be confined to the notions and definitions of men but may warrantably so understand and use the Scripture words as we finde the same words before to be taken and used in the Scriptures themselves And thus it appeareth that Paul was clear of this Pharisaical vice and inconstancy it remaines now for you likewise to purge your selves of the same if you can section 98 T. L. Whether there may not be a lawful respect of orders and degrees among men without such a respect of persons as is condemned by James c. Ans We blame you not for the very doing of any act of kindness love humanity nor yet for any modest and comely signification given thereof but for this do we reprove you and justly namely because ye make so great signification of respect to the rich as bowing flattering complementing standing uncovered c. whiles ye despise the poor howsoever rich in faith because ye give flattering lying titles to the Great ones of the World as Worshipful Honorable Excellent c. Contemning in the mean time those of low degree In sum your fault is this That ye make not the Image of God nor any true worth or vertue most commonly the Cause and Measure of that respect and honor ye do unto men whether in word or deed but meerly those things that perish and decay Which while ye do ye honor the Creature more than the Creator which is Idolatry section 99 Concerning Pauls calling of Festus Noble It may thus be Answered namely That this word proceeded from him upon an urgent and present occasion and that as a due testimony and grateful acknowledgment yielded to the justice moderation and fair behaviour of the man shewed namely in that his Controversie then depending before him with Tertullus the High Priests Orator Acts 25. The same Paul also call'd Agrippa King being a title or name of Office as well as of Dignity and degree and which truly did agree to him as a modest confession thereof and not in a way of flattery Now the things that we reprehend in this kind are 1. The giving such honorable titles and nominal additions to men to whom they be not truly competible And this is a Lye 2. The giving or using these same in ordinary speech whether with the men themselves or of them And this is Flattery section 100 Neither is it in any wise incongruous to our manners or judgment To call affirm or confesse to be Kings Lords Noble Excellent them whom we know or judge to be such But we may not so do when the title testimony stile c. do lack foundation of truth Neither yet can we use these words in a way of Flattery without all necessity or occasion leading thereto so as if the name of the man had espoused such title or addition and with it were inseparably conjoyned But how came it to passe thou couldst find no titles of honor given to the Saints as such The Scriptures call them Kings Priests Sons of God joynt-heirs with Christ c. And all these things are most truly and excellency said of them yet notwithstanding it would be ridiculous to call a Saint in ordinary talk King John Priest John Son of God John c. or after this manner to stile or write them in Letters Charters c. They who expect or require from others titles of honor and superiority do plainly bewray a proud and Antichristian spirit And Christ himself hath openly forbidden such affection saying Matth. 23.10,11 Neither be called Masters for one is your Master even Christ But he that is greatest among you shall be your Servant and whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased Now if it be unlawful to Christian men to affect any greatnesse or exhaltation above their Brethren it can be no lesse unlawful to affect or expect the names or words by which such greatnesse or exaltation is signified and confessed And is it not of equal vice and unlawfulnesse to affect or assume the title of Master on a Civil account as upon a Religious Seeing the reason or ground that makes the former unlawful is equally found in the latter namely Haughtinesse of mind and love of pre-eminence But how fully and cleerly doth Christ determine this Controversie and put the matter quite out of doubt when he saith How can ye believe that receive honor one of another and seek not the honor which cometh of God only Joh. 5.4 section 101 There were in the times of Christs Apostles they who ruled well and who vvere in honour rightly preferred before others and this yet vvithout being called or expecting to be called Master Lord c. at least in familiar converse CONCLVSION NOW he that alone judgeth rightly every Cause being free from all byas of prejudice or other effect be judge between YOU and US and let him render to either according to their works To the poor in spirit let him give the Kingdom of Heaven while the rich he send empty awaie The Mourners let him comfort while they that laughed do mourn and weep To the meek let him give to inherit the Earth while with the froward he deal perverslie Fill he them that hunger and thirst after righteousnesse while they that seemed to themselves to be full repent of their error in famine real Let the merciful mercy obtain as for the cruel with what measure they meeted to others the same meet he unto them again To the pure in heart let him grant to see God while the filthy be shut up in utter darknesse Honor he the Peace-makers with being called the children of God as for them that accuse the Brethren and make war with the Saints let them also be called after his Name whose works they do Finally To them that thirst after blood let him give to drink of the pure Wine of his fiercest Wrath till fearfulness and trembling come upon them and the horror of death overwhelm them till they consume as one in a sicknesse and wear away from amongst the living till their very Names do rot and perish and their memories be no more with men except for a proverb and by-word of infamy except for a monument of His much-bearing Clemency except for examples of most detestable wickedness and the dread Wrath of God revenging Thus thus be it done unto them for they are worthy FINIS ERRATA Pag. 58. lin 12. for Fables read Tables
dispose them to sundry vices and so also lessen and destroy the hope and benefit of such their labors 4. You covet Tythes Glebes Augmentations c. before they are yourss Therefore you covet that which is anothers for certainly these belong to some body before they be given you else also the giver gives you that which was none of his to give 5. You covet all these things without purpose of rendering for or in lieu of them any price or compensation of equal value nay or any value at all 6. You covet more then is requisite unto necessary food and rayment and the rest uses of life which you ought not to do seeing ye both begg and receive these things as meere Almes or charitable reliefe section 89 T. L. Whether all the Apostes did follow handy labor or rather were not maintened by the Churches among whom they labored Answ I have shewed before that Paul Silvanus and Timotheus so Barnabas also did not only use handy labor themselves but commanded and exhorted other Pastors and Elders also to do likewise and that in most vehement sort And though true it be that Paul had power as he saith to forbear working and to give all his time to the Ministery yet did he chuse working rather as preferring it before not working And this he did as one cause thereof to propose himselfe an example to others By like he did even then foresee that in after times there would creep in by fair words and the Magistrates power such Teachers into the Churches and obtruders or that such men should pretend to be ministers of the Gospel as should have hearts exercised with covetous practices and who would take upon them this office chiefly for gifts and rewards And therefore against this sort of men it seemeth he thought it meet and necessary to fence and shut up the office of the Ministerie by injoyning thereunto and as it were annexing handy labour well knowing that now very few would be forward to undertake this office to which no outward priviledges were annexed but such as should be moved thereunto of zeal and good will And indeed this is one good Criterion by which the false Teachers may be known and distinguish'd from the true section 90 T. L. Whether Paul did not yeeld up his right and wrought with his hands on extraordinary occasions viz. to avoid the shew of covetousness to ease the poor and distressed Churches and by his example to win authority to his command concerning labour Ans If Paul did well to use handy labour for these ends and reasons Why is it then that none of your Tribe do think him a pattern worthy their imitation herein Now Paul's ends and reasons for using bodilie labour we shall here collect and rank together 1. That he might have to sustain his life and supply the wants thereof Here was he led by necessitie of nature 2. That he might not be chargeable unto others Here he discovers his Noblenesse of mind and Christian amplitude 3. That he might make the Gospel without charge Herein did his wisdome appear since to have over-burthened such as entertained him might probably have frayed them and others from imbracing the Christian Religion and have brought them into misliking and wearisomness towards the Planters thereof 4. That he might make himself an example unto others Here was his Fatherlie care and the propertie of a good Overseer and Planter of the Gospel 5. Because as he had freely received his Ministerie so he might also freelie give the exercise and benefit thereof here is his justice seen He would not again sell for money or price that which himself had freely received 6. Because it was more blessed to give than to receive Here was the happinesse of his choise with Mary he chose the better part Are not these ends reasons and motives all both for nature full of weight and worth and also for durance of time perpetual Do they not alike obtain and hold in all times and places indifferentlie Are they any part of the old Law Are they typical and so out of force and use with Christians section 91 T. L. Whether the main grounds of Paul's forbearing to receive maintenance from the Corinthians and Thessalonians were not fear of giving offence to the one that were very proud and of burthening the other that were very poor Ans 1. Those were neither the only nor yet the main grounds of Paul●s forbearing to receive maintenance of the Corinthians or Thessalonians as the Reader may easilie perceive by reading the places themselves where mention is made of Paul's working and forbearing to take maintenance viz. 2 Cor 11.7,8,9 1 Thes 4 11,12,13 2 Thes 3.7,8,9,10,11,12 In these two last places the Reader shall find other ends and inducements for Paul's and others working besides these here surmized in the Query viz. 1. That we might not be chargeable to any of you which yet doth not necessarily imply them to have been proud or poor 2. To make our selves an ensample to you to follow us 3. For we hear there are some among you that walk disorderly not working at all not working at all was disorderly walking 4. And to work with your own hands as we commanded you that ye may walk honestly towards them that are without and that ye may have lack of nothing Ans 2. But what do you say to the Elders and Pastors of the Church at Ephesus mentioned Act. 20.17 Were they also with their Churches poor or proud And yet even unto these did Paul in sad and solemn manner commend his example of handy working not doubting to tell them that so labouring they ought to support the weak finally enforcing such their duty and his advice with the unquestionable authority of the Lord Jesus who said It is more blessed to give than to receive Ans 3. There are the same ends reasons and motives why Ministers of the Gospel should now also work for their livings if not otherwise hindered and with-held therefrom by their travels and other imployments to which they be called and commanded of the Lord as in the Primitive times so called if not far greater for there be now as proud and as poor as were then for ought appears to the contrary Certainly in this one thing at least do the times that now are even far exceed those in which the Apostles lived namely in disputes controversies objections and criminations moved about and grounded upon the idleness and avarice of them who are called Christs Ministers and therefore were there no other reason but this this alone were enough if they more regard had to their own authority or the honour and success of their Ministery than to luxury of food and rayment and other carnal respects to drive them to cut off such occasion as afore is said by working with their hands and abstaining from taking even voluntary contribution abundantly more ought they for the cause above-said forbear to sue at Law to distrain