collected and approued If your particular reasons be no better a small confutation will serue Chap. 1. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 1. Furthermore as the wisedome of God hath thought it the best way to keepe his people from infection of idolatrie to make them most vnlike the idolaters so hath the same wisedome of God thought good that to keepe his people in the vnitie of the truth there is no better way than that they should be most like one to another and that as much as possibly may be they should haue all the same ceremonies And therefore Sainct Paule to establish this order in the Churche of Corinth 1. Cor. 16. that they shoulde make their gat erings for the poore vpon the firste day of the Sabboth which is our Sunday alleadgeth this for a reason that he had so ordeyned in other Churches so th t as children of one father and scruantes of one family he will haue all the Churches not onely haue one dyet in that they haue one word but also weare as it were one liuerie in vsing the same ceremonies Io. Whitgifte You take vpon you to tell what the wisedome of God is withoute any warrante of gods word which is presumptiō I told you before that in outward shew and orme the Israelites had many things like vnto the Gentiles which cannot be denyed Unitie of Ceremonies is to be wished in all Churches though it be not so necessary for from the beginning there hath bin therein great varietie but s eing it is a thing so greatly to be desired why are you an occasion of the contrary why do you not submit your sel e to the Church that vnitie in all things may be obserued Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. This rule did the great Councell of Nice follow when it ordeyned that where certaine at the Con. Nic. can 20. feast of Pentecost did pray kneeling that they should pray standing the reason whereof is added which is that one custome ought to be kept through out a the Churches It is true that the diuersitie of ceremonies ought not to cause the Churches to dissent one with another but yet it maketh much to the auoiding of dissention that there be amongst them an vnitie not only in doctrine but also in ceremonies Io. Whitgifte This is to be wished throughout the whole Church of Christ if it were possible but as i neuer was hitherto so will it not be as long as this 〈◊〉 lasteth and least it should be in this particular Church of Englande Sathan hathe stirred vp instruments to procure the contrarie wherfore in these words as I thinke you condemne your selfe and all other dis urbers of the Church for external rites and ceremonies Chap. 1. the. 13. Diuision T. C. Pag. 104. Sect. 2. Nowe we see playnly that as the forme of our seruice and Lyturgy commeth to neare that of the 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 farr different from that of other Churches reformed and therefore in both these respects to be amended Io. Whitgifte From what reformed Church doth it so far differ ▪ or to which reformed Churche would you haue it framed or why should not other reformed Churches as well frame them selues vnto vs for we are as well assured of our doctrine and haue as good grounds and reasons for our doing as they haue except you will bring in a newe Rome appoynt vnto vs an other head Church and crea e a newe Pope by whom we must be in all things directed and according to whose vsage we must rame our selues You knowe what M. Caluine sayth in the argument vpon the Epistle to the Galatians Calu. in argu in Epi. ad Gal. speaking of those that came from Ierusalem to other Churches Many were puffed vp sayth he with vaine glory bicause they were familiar with the Apostles or at the least were instructed in their schole Therfore nothing pleased them but that which they had seene at Ierusalem all other rites that were not there vsed they did not only refuse but A 〈◊〉 mischiefe boldly condemne Such a kinde of frovvardnesse is a most pestilent mischiefe vvhen as vve vvill haue the maner of on Church to be in place of an vniuersall lavve But this ariseth of a preposterous zeale wherby we are so affected towards Prepostrou zeale one master or place that without iudgement or 〈◊〉 we would binde all men and places vnto the opinion of one ma and vnto the 〈◊〉 of one place as vnto a common 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Idē in 15. rule Albeit there is alwayes mixed ambition yea rather alwayes too muche frowardnesse is ambitious The like saying he hath vpon the. 15. of the Actes Luke dothe not expresse by what affection these va lets were moued yet is it very like that a preposterous zeale was the cause that they set themselues agaynst Paule and Barnabas for there are frowarde Frowarde wittes wittes whome nothing but their owne can please They had seene at Ierusalem circumcision and other rites of the lawe to be obserued and whether soeuer they come they can abide no newe thing or diuers As if the example of one Churche dyd bynde all other Churches as vvith a certayn 〈◊〉 But althoughe suche men are led Ambition with a preposterous zeale to more tumults yet inwardly their ambition moueth them and a certayne kinde of contumacie pricketh them forwarde In the meane time Sa han hath that which he desireth that the mindes of the godly beeing darkned with the smoke and mists that he casteth can scant discerne blacke from white Therefore this mischiefe is first to be auoyded that none prescribe vnto other a lavve of their custome least the example of one Church be preiudiciall to the cōmon rule Then an other A necessari caution caution must be added least the estimation of mens persons do eyther hinder or obscure the searche and inquirie of the matter and cause For if Sathan do transforme himselfe into an Angell of light and if he oftentimes vsurpe with wicked 〈◊〉 the holy name of God what maruel is it if through the same wickednesse he delude with the names of godly mē M. Gualter also vpon these words 1. Cor. 14. An à vobis ser o Dei profectus est writeth Gualter i 1. Cor. 14. thus VVho can thinke their insolencie to be tollerable that vsurpe authoritie ouer all Churches and wil haue them seruilely to be subiect vnto them Therfore that which Paule here presently fayth to the Corinthians the selfesame may at this day with better right be spoken to the Romish Cleargie which will haue all men subiect to their lawes and say that it is necessary vnto saluation that all soules should be subiect to the Bishop of Rome Thes things may also be applyed agaynst those whiche compell euery man to sweare vnto the opinion of their master as though it were sinne neuer so little to disagree from those things which
of so many good kings so many hundreth yeares to haue omitted the feastes of Tabernacles expressely by God commaunded Although I do not denie but suche men also may sometimes be ouerséene in some points but neither can you proue that they were deceiued in any substantiall point of doctrine neither yet if they were is this place aptly or truly alleadged The Epistle of T. C. Sect. 8. The dignitie also and high estate of those which are not so earnest in this cause can not hinder it if we consider the wisedome of God almost from time to time to consist and to shew it selfe most in setting foorth his truth by the simpler and weaker sort by cōtemptible and weake instruments 1. Cor. I. by things of no valew to the end that whē al men see the basenesse and rudenesse of the instrument they might the more wonder at the wisedome and power of the artificer which with so weake and foolish instruments bringeth to passe so wise and mightie things And if mē will with such an eye of fiesh looke vpon matters they shal condemne that excellent reformation made vnder the Godly king * Iosias is here alleadged for Ezechias Iosias which the holy Ghost doth so highly cōmēd In which it is witnessed that the (1) This place is not right interpreted Leuites 2. Chro. which were a degree vnder the priests were more forward and more zelous than the priests 29. Chap. themselues Yea wherein it is witnessed that the people were yet more earnest and more willing 2. Chro. than either the Leuites or the priests which thing if euer is verefyed in our time For whē (2) A manifest flatterie and the scripture abused to coloure it I cōsider the zeale for religion which sheweth it selfe in many as well of the nobilitie 30. Chap. and gentrie of this realme as of the people their care to continue it and aduaunce it their voluntary charges to mainteine it their liberalitie towards them which bend themselues that way as I do thereby conceiue some hope of the fauorable countenaunce and cōtinuaunce of Gods goodnesse towards vs So I cannot be but ashamed of mine owne slackensse and afraid of the displeasure of the Lorde for that those whose proper worke this is especially and which shoulde beare the standard and carrie the torch vnto the rest are so cold and so carelesse in these matters of the Lord. Io. Whitgifte I knowe none among vs which in the respect of his dignitie and high estate séeketh or desireth to be preferred or beleued before you but in the respect of the cause which is the peace of the Church suppression of schismes and the truth it selfe No man denieth but God of his wisedome in the beginning of the Church of Christ poured God vseth not the simple only or alwayes to set foorthe his truth out his gifts more plenteously vpon the simpler contemptible and weaker sorte and that he choosed for his Apostles fishermen tollegatherers and ignorant persons lest that shoulde be ascribed to the wit eloquence and learning of man which commeth only of the goodnesse might and power of God as the Apostle plainly declareth 1. Cor. 1. 2. But will you therefore conclude that truth zeale and godlinesse remayneth either only or especially in the simple rude and ignorant sort and make thys your conclusion the learned the honorable men of great countenance or knowledge be of this or that opinion Ergo it is not true Or the simple rude and ignorant people ar thus and thus perswaded Ergo they must be followed or to the like effect Uerely this were to reason as the Franciscan friers do to excuse their ignorance Apostoli nesciebant literas ergo Franciscanis non est opus literis And like some other phantastical persons also which thinke that no learned rich or honorable man shall be saued but only beggers and such as be ignorant as master Gualter testifyeth in his commentaries vpon 1. Cor. 1. Gual in 1. Cor. I. hom 7. You know as I suppose that this place of the. 1. Cor. 1. quoted in your margent doth not gather any suche conclusion that therefore the doctrine is not true bycause Princes nobles wise and learned men c. do allow of it or therefore it is true bycause it pleaseth the simple rude and ignorant people For Nicodemus Ioseph Lazarus Betha Sergius Paulus Dionisius Areopagita Crispus Gaius Erastus with diuers others were politique wise welthy learned and honorable men and the Prophete Esay saithe That kings and Queenes shall be the nursing fathers and mothers the defenders and mainteiners of the Churche And Bullinger in his cōmentaries vpō Esay 49. this place doth thus expounde it He speaketh of the first calling especially wherein fishermen Bull. in 1. Co. I. and Idiots were especially called to the preaching of the Gospell For no man can denie but that after the Gospell was confirmed in the world the best learned imbraced the truth For first shepherds declared that Christ was borne then the Magi that is the wise men of the East came to salute him with gifts Wherefore I pray you let not the wealthe calling or dignitie which you thinke we haue preiudice our cause The simple and plaine meaning of the place is that God in his electing to eternall life hath neyther respect to nobilitie learning riches or any such thing I might héere againe trippe you for alleadging Iosias in stead of Ezechias and say that you had not read the Scriptures or that you vsed other mens notes and so dallie with you as you vse to do with others But I will leaue such kind of gibes to brabling Sophisters in the schooles thinke that it was some light ouersight which in such a case may sometimes happen to him that is most circumspect Your collection vpon that place 2. Chro. 29. and. 30. I can not as yet allowe vntill I be better instructed therein for wheras you saye that it is there witnessed that the Leuites which were a degree vnder the Priestes were more forward and more zelous than the Priests themselues and the people more earnest and more willing than eyther the Leuites or the Priests I sée not how you can gather any suche thing out of either of these two Chapters for if there be any sentence to gather it of in the. 29. Chap. it is the. 34. verse which although in some translation it séeme to insinuate some such thing yet if credite may be giuen to those that be notable learned men and very wel séene in the Hebrue song the meaning of that place is nothing lesse Pellicane translateth the words thus Leuitae quippe faciliori ritu sanctificantur quam sacerdotes For the Leuites were sooner or easyer sanctifyed than the priests which he expoundeth more plainly in hys Pel. in 2. Chr. 29. commentaries saying Intelligitur sacerdotum numerum imminutum fuisse c. It is to bee vnderstanded that the number of
vnderstanding thereof Your great wordes doe not answere the matter I feare not the insufficiencie of my pen I thanke God neither is there any cause why I should for the truth hath alwayes a plentifull defense whereas error and schisme is compelled to vse arrogant opprobrious and contemptuous speaches to maintaine it selfe Of all other T. C. hath least cause to complaine of such extremitie or to speake in this maner I haue much more cause to accuse his vndutifull and vnthankefull nature If Charitie be not suspitious why do you then thus not suspecte but directly giue sentence that it is not for want of good will that I doe not accuse them of Anabaptisme 〈◊〉 it not lawfull for me to suspect and is it lawfull for you to condemne You tooke vpon you to reproue me before for iudging and can you fall so sone into it your selfe 〈◊〉 déede charitie is not suspicious without iust and lawfull causes but whether the causes be iust or no let those iudge to whom it doth especially appertaine Io. Whitgifte The first article pag 2. Sect. 1. First Anabaptisme tendeth to this ende that in those places where the Gospell hath bin for a time preached and where Churches be reformed the Gospell may be hindered the Churches disquieted the simple brought to doubt of the Religion that hath bene taughte them contentious and vnquiet mindes may haue matter to worke on the preaching of the Gospell become odious finally that Magistrates and such as be in authoritie may be contemned and despised of their subiectes and inferiours T. C. pag. 2. Sect. 2. It is all true you heere alleadge of the Anabaptistes God be praysed there is nothing of it true in vs. If through these questions moued the Churche be disquieted the disquietnesse riseth in that the truth and sinceritie which is offered is not receyued We seeke it in no tumultuous manner but by humble sute vnto them to whom the redresse of things pertayne and by teaching as our callings will suffer If all those are to be counted in the way to Anabaptisme which moue controuersies when the Gospell is preached (*) The ca is 〈◊〉 thing lyke Then those that taught that the Gentiles weare to be preached vnto when as the most of the beleeuing Iewes which likewise preached the Gospell thoughte otherwise are to be counted in the way of Anabaptisme Likewise those that preached that circumcision was not necessarie vnto saluation when as a greate number of Christians at the first thought it necessarie Then Maister Zumglius and Decolampadius smelt of Anabaptisme which went aboute to ouerthrowe diuers things which Maister Luther helde I coulde goe further with this but I content my selfe with these examples If any be brought in doubt or hatred of the truth hereby or any man take occasion to be contentious it is not in the nature of the doctrine which is taught but in the corruption of their mindes nor it is not offence giuen but taken nor this doctrine can be no more charged than the rest of the Gospell which is a * sworde that cutteth a Citie or kingdome in sunder and setteth a * fire where Mat. 10. 34. there was none and putteth contention betwene the father and the sonne But what is to giue an Luc. 12. 49. incurable offence vnto the simple and matter to the enimie to reioyce in to all good Christians of teares and weeping if this be not to make the worlde thinke that numbers of those which professe the Gospell are infected with the poyson of Anabaptisme which can not be touched with the smalest poynt of it As for the Magistrate and authoritie we acknowledge the lawfulnesse necessitie A good 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vnfayne and singular commoditie of it we commende it in our sermons to others we pray for them as for those of whose good or euill estate hangeth the flourishing or decay of the common wealth and Church both We loue them as our Fathers and Mothers we feare them as our Lordes and Maisters and we obey them in the Lord and for the Lorde If there be any thing wherein we do not according to that which is commaunded it is bycause we can not be perswaded in our consciences that we may so doe whereof we are readie to render a reason out of the word of God and if that will not serue forthwith to submitte our selues to that punishment that shall be awarded against vs. And herein we first call the Lorde God to witnesse of our meaning and then we referre our selues to the consciences of all men in the sight of God Io. Whitgifte Nothing is here sayde of you in the defense of the authors of the Admonition but the Anabaptistes will say the same in theirs Let the like effectes procéeding from the like causes and in like manner iudge the likelyhoode betwixte the Anabaptistes and them One of the chiefe notes that are giuen of Anabaptistes by Zuinglius in his Zuinglius booke called Ecclesiastes and in his other bookes where he speaketh of them is that they sowe discorde and contention in those Churches where the Gospell hath bene truely preached and that about externall matters as it may more at large appeare in the seconde edition of my answere to the Admonition And tell me I praye you what Churche hath any of them setled themselues in but in such wherin the Gospell hath bene well The admonitors iustly accused of contention planted before or in what place haue they for any time remayned where they haue not with contention and factions troubled not that place onely but the whole countrey rounde aboute in lyke manner Surely if they preached doctrine necessarie to saluation that is the Gospell and in those places wherein the Gospell is not receyued then if contentions shoulde arise the cause were not to be ascribed vnto them but vnto their hearers onely but seyng they ran not teache the Gospell more sincerely than it is taught and seyng the matters they contend for be not of such necessitie that the Churches should for them be disquieted seyng also that they séeke reformation as they call it neither in due time due place nor before méete persons And finally seyng contentions are raised by them in those places where the Gospell is receiued I sée not howe they can auoyde the iust accusation of contentieus persons and disturbers of the peace of the Church For if you aske of the time the Admonition was published after the Parliament to the which it was dedicated was ended If you Their disorder in publishing the Admonition speake of the place it was not exhibited in Parliament as it ought to haue bene but spred abroade in corners and sent into the Countrey If you inquire of the persons it came first to theyr handes who had least to doe in reforming Likewyse your sermons of these matters when preache you them surely euen in this troublesome Their disorder in preaching and tumultuous tyme when there
men also as of Zuinglius Gastius and others Io. Whitgifte The. 14. Article Pa 4. Sect. 4. They bragged that they would defend their cause not only with Fol. 11. words but with the shedding of their bloud also T. C. Pa. 5. Sect. vlt. We feare no shedding of bloud in hir maiesties dayes for mainteining that which we hope we shall be able to proue out of the word of God and wherein we agree with the best reformed churches but certaine of the thinges whiche we stand vpon are such as that if euery heare of our head were a life we ought to aford them for the defense of them We brag not of any the least abilitie of suffering but in the feare of God we hope of the assistance of God his holy spirit to abide whatsoeuer hee shall thinke good to trie vs with either for profession of this or any other hys truthe whatsoeuer Io. Whitgifte Thanks be vnto God there is no cause why you should feare But wherefore do you then beate any such suspition into the peoples heads or why do you beast of that that you know is nothing néere you and whiche no man once goeth about to offer vnto you what meane you in the. 59. page of the second Admonition to say that there is a persecution of poore Christians and the professours of the Gospell suffered not farre vnlike Second Admoni Fol. 59 to the sixe articles which crafty heads deuised and brought the king hir noble father vnto as they would do hir maiestie now Can any thing be spoken more vntruly more suspiciously nay I may rightly say more seditiously If there be such things in controuersie betwixt vs that require defense euen vnto The state of the cōtētiō altered by T. C. death yea and that if euery heare of our head wer a life we ought to afoord them for the defense of the same then truly is there greater matters in hand than euery body doth consider of Hitherto it hath bin the common opinion that our contention was but about trifles about externall things such as might admit alteration and were not of the substance of religion but if this be true that you here set downe belike a great sort haue bin hitherto deceiued Truly if the matters be of such weight that they require defense of life you are much to blame that haue not hitherto made them better knowen I trust we shall in this booke vnderstand what they are In the meane time the stout bragges that are vsed by some might well be spared but we haue oftentimes séene greate cloudes and small rayne and heard great crackes of thunder and thanks be vnto God small harme done Neither are you more to be credited for these boastings than were the Anabaptists for vsing the like Io. Whitgifte ▪ The. 15. Article Page 4. Sect. 5. Their whole intent was to make a separation and a schisme and Fol. 17. 77. to withdraw men from their ordinary Churches and pastours and therfore most odiously they inueied against such pastours and sought by all meanes to discredite them T. C. Page ▪ 6. Sect. 1. We make no separation from the Church we go about to separate al those things that offend in the Church to the end that we being al knit to the sincere truth of the Gospel might afterwards in the same bond of truth be more neerely and closely ioyned togither We endeuour that euery Church hauing a lawfull pastoure whiche is able to instruct all mighte be ranged to their proper Churches whereas diuerse vnlesse they go to other than their owne parishes are like to heare few sermons in the yeare so farre are we from withdrawing men from their ordinarie churches and pastours Let him that inueyeth against any pastoure without good cause beare the punishment as for inueying againste heaping of liuing vpon liuing and ioyning steeple to steeple and non residence and such ambition and tyrannie as beareth the sway in diuers ecclesiasticall persons if the price of the pacification be the offending of the Lorde it is better you be displeased than God bee offended Io. Whitgifte Whether you make a separation or no and a schisme in the Churche let all men iudge and whether you draw the people from their ordinarie pastours or no let the secrete conuenticles for I can call them no better vsed not only in the citie but in other places of the countrey also testify whether iustly and as it becommeth you you enuey against such pastours and preachers as mislike your opinion and séeke their discredite let the bitter inuectiues in sermons before the people when none of them is present the common table talke bothe your Admonitions the firste and the second yea and this your passing modeste booke declare Truly this article and euery content in it was neuer more truly verefyed of the Anabaptists than it is and may be of you What you haue to say against the ambition and tyrannie of any such as you especially shoote at we shall sée in your particulars I trust you will speake al you know and more to else you do degenerate Io. Whitgifte The. 16. Article Page 4. Sect. 6. There was no staye in them but daily they inuented new opinions Fol. 18. and did runne from errour to errour T. C. Page 6. Sect. 2. We stay ourselues within the bonds of the word of God we professe our selues to be of the number of those which should * grow in knowledge as we do in age and which labor that the Image Eph. 4. v. 13 Col. 3. v. 10. of God may be dayly renued in vs not only in holynesse of life but also in * knowledge of the truth of God and yet I know no question moued which hath not bin many yeares before in other churches reformed holden as truth and therefore practised and in our Church also haue bin some yeares debated Io Whitgifte Thus muche might they alleadge for themselues also and applie those textes of scripture to as good purpose as you do For that place of the fourth to the Ephe. doth 4. Eph. teach that God hath therefore appointed his ministerie in the Church that it mighte be a meanes to bring vs to a perfect knowledge of Christ. The meaning is not that we should be daily altering our iudgement and broching new opinions for against such vnconstancie the same Apostle speaketh in the. 14. verse of the same Chapter 4. Eph. ver 14. True it is that we must dayly grow in faith and loue to the full perfection whereof we cannot attaine in this life but it doth not therefore follow that we like children must be carried about with euery wind of doctrine and neuer remaine constant in one religion To the same end are the words of the Apostle in the. 3. to the Colloss to be referred I beléeue it will fall out that in this your replie there will be found sundry articles neyther allowed nor practised in any Church reformed nor
authoritie to take héede of them Let men apply them as they sée cause and haue experience there can be no hurte in that it shall make them the more circumspect and arme them agaynst the hypocriste of diuers Howe the authors of both the Admonitions do agree with the Anabaptistes in these forenamed practises I haue declared in my answere to your Reply You falsifie my wordes when you affyrme that I say they agree wyth the Anabaptists in all the forenamed practises and qualities for I haue not this vniuersall signe all if they agrée with them in many they are to be suspected I thinke the Anabaptistes themselues as they haue diuers and seuerall opinions in doctrine so had they also sundrie qualities concerning lyfe and conuersation and yet some there are which be common to them all I know that all the estates and orders of this Realitie hate Anabaptisme I require not your promyse for that matter which you offer vnto me Satis pro imperio I know their detestation of that heresie and therefore I am holde to open these practises qualities vnto them least they may by some mens hypocrisie and close dealing be deceiued My words and writings be publike my speaches plaine and therefore if I sting it is openly inoughe The priuie hissers and stingers he those that secretelye smyte theyr neighbour and hisse at them in their absence at tables and in corners and sting them behinde their backes whē they are not present to answere for themselues Such adders and Scorpions swarme among you Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 5. Sect. 6. Moreouer it may please you to consider the conditions practises of the Donatists who deuided them selues frō the congregation Donatistes and had their peculiar Churches or rather conuenticles in Africa They taughte also that all other Churches were spotted and impure bycause of their Ministers Finally that there ought to be no compulsion vsed in matters of Religion and fayth and that none should be punished for their conscience T. C. Page 7. Sect. 4. Nowe you carie vs from the Anabaptistes in Europe to the Donatistes in Affricke and you will paynte vs wyth their colours but you want the oyle of truth or 〈◊〉 of truth to cause your colours to cleaue and to endure The Lorde be praysed that your breath although it be 〈◊〉 anke yet it is not so strong y t it is able eyther to turne vs or chaunge vs into what formes it pleaseth you I shall desire the reader to loke Theodoret lib. 4. de fabulis Haereticorum Augustin ad quod-uult-Deum and in his firste and second bookes agaynst 〈◊〉 Letters where he shall fynde of these heretikes that by comparing them wyth these to whome M. Doctor lyk eth them the smoke of this accusation mighte the better appeare For these sclaunders are not worthe th answering To this diuision from the Churches and to your supposed conuenticles I haue answered They taught that there were no true Churches but in Affrica we teache nothing lesse than that there is no true Churche but in Englande If the Churches be considered in the partes whether Minister or people there is none pure and vnspotted and this is the faythe of the true Churche and not of the Donatistes if it be considered in the whole and generall gouernment and outwarde pollicie of it it may be pure and vnspotted for any thing I knowe if men would laboure to purge it The Donatists vaunted themselues to be exempted from sinn and what lykelyhoode is there betwene any assertion of the authors of the Admonition and this fansie of the Donatistes To the last poynt of no compulsion to be vsed in matters of Religion denying it to be true I referre the further answere to an other place Io. Whitgifte This that I haue set downe of the Donatistes is all true neyther can you disproue one word of it I write so much of their practises as he correspondent to the doings The admonitors compared with the Donatistes of the Authors of the Admonition The Donatistes deuided th mselues from the co gregation and had peculiar Churches or rather conuenticles in Affrica These also deuide themselues from the Churche And although they tye not the Churche of Christ to any one corner yet haue they their seuerall Churches and secrete meetings The 〈◊〉 made thys their excuse why they departed from other Churches bycause they were not pure and vnspotted and their ministers of euill life These men for the lyke causes separat themselues from the Churche also The Donatistes woulde haue no 〈◊〉 vsed in 〈◊〉 of Religion and fayth These men in effecte be lykewise mynded for they woulde haue no 〈◊〉 punishement vsed which may appeare y that which is written in the second 〈◊〉 fol. 57. where they saye that it 〈◊〉 not to make any lawes 〈◊〉 m ere 〈◊〉 bycause the gouernment of the Second Admoni fol. 57. Churche is 〈◊〉 per 〈◊〉 the worde and fol. 56. and in 〈◊〉 plates else they speake to the lyke purpose whereof occasion will be g uen hereafter better to consider Augustine in his 〈◊〉 de haeresibus ad quod-vult 〈◊〉 heweth that some of the Donatistes Aug. de baeresib ad quod-vult were also Arians but not all 〈◊〉 some of them were Circumcellions of which secte 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the place by you cyted But what is all 〈◊〉 to ▪ Lib. 4 de fab Haeret. the 〈◊〉 speake ot of their opinions nor of all theyr conditions but of such onely wherein these that separate them selues in oure dayes séeme to agrée wyth them Similia as you knowe agrée not in all poyntes it is sufficient if they doe in those things in quibus 〈◊〉 Neyther doe I anye otherwyse reporte of them than M. Caluine him selfe doth in his booke against the Anabaptistes and Augustine with others that write of them Surely neyther in the whole nor in parte can the Churche be vnspotted in this world no not in the outwarde pollicie and gouernment of it neyther doe I thinke that you are able to shewe any examples of suche Puritie we haue to the contrarie euen in the Apostolicall Churches in the Apostles tyme as the Churche of Corinth and of the Galatians Maister Caluine in hys booke aduersus Anabaptistas is directly against you and in déede I thinke that you are not able to shewe one learned writer of your opinion in this poynt Io. Whitgifte An exhortation c. Pag. 5. Sect. 7. To conclude these men flatly ioyne with the Papistes and by the selfe same assertions bende their force against this Churche of Englande T C. Pag. 7. Sect. vlt. Salomon sayth that the beginnyng of the ordes of an vnwise man is folyshnesse b t the Ecclef 10. ver 13. latter ende of them is mere madnesse euen so it 〈◊〉 oute by you for whilest you suffer your selfe to be caryed headlong of your affections you hurle you knowe not what nor at whome whatsoeuer commeth firste to
to be holden for a lavve Whereby it is manifest that those things maye be retained in the Churche whych are not expressed in the Scripture In the same Epistle he reporteth the aunswere that Ambrose made vnto hym beyng demaunded whether it were lawfull to faste on the Sabboth daye or not to faste seyng that among the Churches there was some diuersitie in thys poyut Quando bic sum sayth he non ie uno Idem Sabbato quando Romae sum ieiuno Sabbato ad quamcunque ecclesiam veneritis eius morem seruate si pati scandalum non vultis aut facere VVhen I am here I faste not on the Sabboth vvhen I am at Rome I doe faste on the Sabboth and to what Churche so euer you come keepe the custome thereof if you vvill neyther suffer offence nor gyue offence The whole Epistle is worthy of reading T. C. Page 17. Sect. 3. 4. 5. 6. The Answerer goeth aboute to proue that they came yet out of good earthe and from good men whych if he had obtayned yet he maye well knowe that it is no good argumente to proue that they are good For (*) A true sayings but not truely applyed as the beste earthe bryngeth forth weedes so doe the beste men bring forthlyes and errours But let vs heare what is brought that if this visarde and shewe of truth be taken awaye all men may perceiue howe good occasion we haue to complaine and howe iust cause there is of reformation In the fyrst place of Saynt Augustine there is nothing against any thing which we holde for that that the Churche may haue things not expressed in the scripture is not (a) But it is against that that nothing should be placed in the Churche whyche God in his word hath not commaunded and therefore you do here but shifte of the controuersie against that it ought to haue nothing but that may be warranted by the scripture For they may be according to the scripture and by the Scripture which are not by plaine ter es expressed in the Scripture But agaynst you it ▪ maketh much and ouerturneth all your buylding in this booke For if in those things which are not expressed in the Scripture they are to be obserued of the Churche which are the customes of the people of God and the decrees of oure forefathers then how can these things be varyed according to time place and persons which you saye should be when as that is to be retayned which the people of God hath vsed and the decrees of the forefathers haue ordayned And then also howe can we doe safelyer than to followe the Apostles customes and the Churches in theyr tyme whych we are sure are oure forefathers and the people of God Besides that how can we retaine the customes and constitutions of the Papists in such things which were neither the people of God nor our forefathers I will not enter nowe to discusse whether it were well done to fast in all places according to the custome of the place You (b) Vntruth proceeding of Ignorance oppose Ambrose and Augustine I coulde oppose Ignatius Tertullian Tertul. de cor milit Ignat. ad phi epist. 5. whereof the one sayth it is nefas a detestable thing to fast vpon the Lordes day the other that it is to kill the Lord and this is the inconuenience that commeth of suche vnlearned kinde of reasoning S. Ambrose saith so and therefore it is true And although Ambrose Augustine being straungers and priuate men at Rome would haue so done yet it followeth not that if they hadde bene Citizens ministers there that they would haue done it if they had done so to yet it followeth not but y e they wold haue spokē against that appoinment of dayes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of fasting wherof Eusebius saith that Montanus was the first author I speake of y e which they ought to haue done for otherwise I know they both thought corruptly of fasting when as the one sayth it was remedie or rewarde to fast other dayes but in Lent August d temp ser. 62 Amb. 10. li ▪ epist ▪ not to faste was synne And the other asketh what saluation we can obtayne if we blot not our synnes by fastyng seyng that the Scripture sayth that fastyng and almes doth delyuer from sinne and therefore calleth them new teachers that shut out the merite of fasting which I therefore recyte bicause you would seeme by Augustine and Ambrose iudgements to alowe of the wekely and commaunded fastes Io. Whitgifte I haue sufficiently proued that the Scripture hathe not expressed all things that may be vsed in the Church touching ceremonies order and such matters for that is the question we haue nowe in handling and for further proofe and confirmation of the same I doe not disdaine the authoritie of any man especially of Augustine a man Augustine deliuered from vntrue surmises for his excellent learning and sound iudgement in most poynts of Religion estéemed of all that haue any shewe of learnyng or sparkle of modestie his opinicn of the sufficiencie of the Scripture in matters of saluation of the authoritie of it in iudgeing matters of controuersie is perfecte and sounde as may be séene Lib. 2. aduersus Cresco gramma Lib. contra Maximi Lib. de vnitate ecclesiae Lib. 2 de doct Christ ▪ Chap. 16. 20. Euang. Iohannis Epist. 112. and in a number of places else he speaketh also of Ceremonyes and traditions as moderately as diuinely and as warely as any man dothe as it appeareth euidently in these places that I haue in my answere alleaged And therfore he is not wyth suche contempte to be reiected nor yet defaced wyth vntrue surmises That which commeth from so good and learned a man is the rather to be beléeued so long as it is not repugnant to the worde of God And althoughe the best earth bringeth forth some weedes yet the good fruite muste not for the wéedes sake be refused This is a very meane reason good men sometimes erre and be deceiued therefore they must neuer in any thing be beléeued But to come to the purpose you say that this fyrst place of Saint Augustine is nothing agaynst any thing that you holde c. Surely and it maketh wholly for that which I holde for it proueth directly that there be some things wherein the Scripture hath not determyned any certaintie but lefte them to the disposition of others for he sayth In bis rebus de quibus nibil certi statu scriptura diuina ▪ c. and that these things be not suche as be repugnant or against the worde of God but accordyng to the rule of Saint Paule 1. Cor. 14. if you were not of purpose disposed agaynst your owne conscience and knowledge to abuse the reader you myghte easily vnderstande by my expressed words vttered in this portion of my answere and in all other places where I haue occasion to speake of the
commaundement of God and are preferred before Gods commaundementes beeing neither contayned in the holy Scriptures nor founde decreed in the Councels of Bishops nor cōfirmed by the custome of the whole Church but are varied innumerably by the diuers maners of diuers Regions so that scarcely or neuer the causes can be found out whiche men followed in appoynting of them when occasion is offered I thinke they ought to he cut off without any doubt Hitherto Augustine Therefore in reciting the wordes of S. Augustine in this place first you haue omitted the wordes going before that expresse his mynde and declare that he meaneth suche ceremonies as be impedimentes to the obseruing of Gods commaundementes for hauing spoken of suche before in manyfest wordes he concludeth as I haue sayde on this sort Omnia itaque talia c. All suche ceremonies c. whiche words you haue fraudulently kept backe Secondly where S. Augustine speaketh of the vnreasonable multitude of ceremonies vsing these wordes innumerabiliter variantur are varied innumerably you haue likwyse lefte out this word innumerably which also expresseth Augustines meaning Laste of all you haue concealed a sentence in the middest whiche is very materiall to the declaring of Augustine his minde The sentence is this Ita vt vix aut omninò nunquà m inueniri possint causae quas in eis instituendis homines secuti sunt So that scarcely or neuer the causes can be founde oute whiche men followed in appoynting of them Whereby it is playne that he also meaneth suche ceremonies as bée appoynted without reason or cause And yet in the latter ende he addeth But the Churche of God beeing placed betwixte muche chaffe and darnell dothe tollerate many thinges c. But I am so farre from defending the multitude or burdensomnesse of ceremonies that I consent in all poyntes with that saying of Augustine wherefore this sentence is nothing to hotte for me but pleaseth me righte well And it had bin more for your commendation if you had not medled withall They whose names I héere recite thoughe I haue not written their wordes yet in the places whiche I haue qnoted doe affirme as muche as I recite them for whiche you might haue founde if you had taken paynes to searche for the same as I thinke verily you haue done and founde little for your purpose and therfore are content to passe them ouer in silence If I make so ofte repetitinons I doe but as I am occasioned by them whome I answere and as you do your selfe in this Replie though it pleaseth you not to be acknowne of it The sentences of Doctors and writers that I stuffe in argue that I haue red them and that I am not ashamed to lay them open to the ende my playne dealing may be séene in alledging of them But what did you before fynde faulte with my Dumbe doctors and can you not nowe abyde them speaking surely I intend not to be directed by so vnconstant a guyde If I proue things that no man denyeth you hadde the lesse laboure in replying If I translate whole leaues to so small purpose they be the sooner answered if vpon so lighte occasions I haue made so often digressions you will take héede I am well assured that you offende not in the lyke which truly you haue forgotten in this place for here is a digression without all reason But I will let your reuerende and modeste speaches passe and not recompence them with the lyke for it neither sauoureth the spirite of God neither yet any modest and good nature but a stomack swelling rather against the person than against the cause My purpose is not in this place to seke for rules to measure Ceremonies by but to proue that in Ceremonies and other externall things muche is lefte to the discretion of the Churche whiche is not to be founde in Scriptures and yet I know none of these rules vnméete for a diuine to search for or to vnderstand vnlesse it be suche a one as contemneth all other mens learning but his owne But how happeneth it that you haue answered nothing to the last place that I haue alleaged out of Augustine Or why say you nothing to my conclusion whiche is that by all those places of this learned father it is euident c. In all this your replie you haue greatly faulted in ignorantia Elenchi for you haue not reasoned nor answered ad idem but spoken altogether from the purpose T. C fauire in ignorantia Elenchi ▪ ¶ The opinion of M. Caluin of things indifferent Chap. 4. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 25. Sect. 2. 3. Pag. 26. 27. 28. Pag. 29. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. But I trust M. Caluines iudgement will weigh something with them who in his Institutions Cap. 13. Sect. 31. 32. speaking of traditions sayth in this sort Bicause the Lorde hath both faithfully and plainly comprehended and declared in the holie scriptures the whole summe of true righteousnesse all the parts of the true worshipping of him and what so euer is necessarie vnto saluation therfore in those things he is only to be heard as a maister or teacher But bicause in externall discipline ceremonies he would not particularly prescribe vvhat we ought to folow bicause he foresavv that this depended vpon the state and condition of the time neyther did iudge one form or maner to be agreable to al ages here we must haue a respect to those general rules which he gaue that according to thē might be examined such things as the necessitie of the Church requireth to be cōmanded for order decencie Finally bicause in these things he hath expressed nothing for that they are neither necessarie to saluation and may be diuersly applied to the edifying of the Church according to the maner and custome of euery countrey and age Therfore as the cōmoditie of the Church requireth as shal be thought conuenient both the old may be abrogated nevve appointed I graunt that we must not rashely nor often nor for euery lighte cause make innouations But vvhat hurteth and vvhat edifieth charitie wil best iudge which if vve vvil suffer to be the moderatrix al shal be safe wel Now it is the office of Christian people vvith a free cōscience vvithout su-superstition with a godlie minde and readie and willing to obey to obserue those things which are appointed according to this rule not to contemne them nor negligently to omit them so farre off ought they to be from breaking them openly thorough disdaine and contumacie But thou wilte say vvhat libertie of conscience can there be in so precise and straight obseruing of them truely the libertie of conscience may well stand vvich it if we shall consider that these lavves and decrees to the which we are bounde be not perpetuall or suche as are not to be abrogated but only externall rudiments of mans infirmities wherof notvvithstanding we all stande not in neede yet vvee all vse them bicause one
hath not knowledge is by my example edi ied or strengthened to weare a Surp sse wherof he can tel no ground why he should weare it and so sinneth agaynst his con and for this cause S. Paule concludeth that that which a man may o in respect of him selfe may not be done and is not lawfull to be done in respect of other Io. Whitgifte If to weare a surplis were an offence to the weake or if there were not manifest The weake are not offended but they which accōpte them selues most strong groundes in Scripture suche I meane as commaunde obedience to superiours to proue the wearing of the surplis to be lawfull then were it some thyng that you saye But seeing suche onely be offended therewith as accompte themselues most strong and condemne other of infirmitie séeing also that obedience to Magisirates in such indifferent things hath manifest groundes in scripture and to doubt of obedience in suche matters is in eff cte to plucke the Magistrate his sworde out of his hand this reason hath not so muche as any similitude of probabilitie in it Is there any minister of the Churche for of suche only is the Surplis required that will rather bée moued to weare a surplis by the example of an other than by the consideration of his duetie towardes the lawe and 〈◊〉 of the Churche by due authoritie in a lawfull and indifferent thing appointed you might make the same reason serue to plucke downe the Churche the Pulpit the Belles yea to ouerthrowe all orders and all lawes in things indifferent whiche all haue the same grounde of obedience that the surplis hath In the Conf ssion of the Dutche Churche in London whiche is allowed by the Things indifferēt chāge their nature be g cōmanded or forbidden Confess Ec les Belgiog rman Churche of GENEVA and diuers other reformed Churches whereof I haue made mention before it is thus written of things indifferent Things otherwyse indifferent of themselues after a sorte chaunge their nature when by some comma ndement they are eyther commaunded or forbidden bycause neyther they can bee omitted contrarie to the commaundement if they be once commaunded neyther done contrarie to the prohibition if they be prohibited as it appeareth in the Ceremoniall lawe So that the grounde why a man shoulde weare the surplis béeing an indifferente thyng as you co fesse it to be can not be vnknowne to any but suche as know not the ground of their obedience towardes authoritie It is true that in some things indifferent a man must haue respect to the weakenesse In what kind of 〈◊〉 thinges we ughte to haue a resp ct of the we ke of his brother and absteyne from doing that whiche he might lawfully doe rather than to off nde his brother But that is in suche indifferente thynges as bée not by any lawe commaunded or forbidden but lefte frée to euery man to do or not to doe As if to weare the Surplis were by no lawe commaunded but lefte to euery mannes owne disposition then surely if there were any weake offended with the wearyng of it I oughte to absteyne for the weake hys sake but béeyng by lawfull authoritie commaunded to weare it if I should refuse so to do I shoulde offend against the Magistrate and against God who by his Apostle hath giuen thys commaundement omnis anima potestatibus c. let euery soule be subi ct to the higher power Rom. 1 c. which is to be vnderstanded in all things that are not against God And therfore if any man be offended with me in so doing the offence is taken it is not giuen Chap. 1. the fifth Diuision T. C. Page 52. Sect. vlt. Agayne for the stubborne Papists they take herevpon occasion to speake euill of and to bl spheme the truth of the gospell saying that our religion cannot stand by itselfe vnlesse it lea e vpon the staffe of their ceremonies and perswade themselues that those were very well deuised by their Popes that they that are their nimies to their religion cannot be without And herv on they ake occasion to hope that their other trumper e and baggage will in the nd come in againe which ca seth them to be more frosen in their wickednesse and shut their eares vnto the tru h which possibly they would heare if all hope of bringing in of their Poperie were cut off Io. Whitgifte This is but a mere fancy for first it was brought into the Church before theyr Popes whome they hold vpon inuaded that seate as it is afterwards declared Secondly they be not matters that they make any greate accompt of Thirdly they know fullwell that we could be without them and that we but only for obedience sake do not much estéeme of them Wherefore this is an argument framed only vppon light coniectures But beit all this were true shall we for their fancie or fonde iudgement refuse to do that which is lawfull which we may d and which we are bound to do Or in making orders for the Church must we enquire what their opiniō wil be Then plucke downe Churches ▪ c. for of them they make a greater reck ning than they do of the surplisse or any other such like matter I thinke verely that there is not one Papist in England that doth take occasion vpon any thing reteyned in this Church to hope that their other trumperie and baggage will in the end come in gayne neyther is there any cause in respect of them why they should so hope and if they do yet I doubte not but that they shall hoppe without that hope But a man may imagine if he will that there is a man in the Moone with a tree on his backe c. and you cannot let him Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Page 53. Lin. 5. And let it be obserued that throughout the realme there are none that make such clamours and outcries and complaints for these ceremonies as they and those that they suborne They pretende I confe se the Queenes maiestres Imunctions and 〈◊〉 vnto them but who is so blinde as seeth not that they haue another meaning For I appeale vnto the consciences of all that knowe them whether they do it for any obedience towards hi maiestie whose death should be a thousand times better newes vnto them than hir graces mariage Io. Whitgifte The more is the pittie that they should haue suche i st cause of clamoring and that The clamors of Papists should mo the ministers to more circumspection those which should teach them obedience to God and their Prince be examples to the contrary A subtill and craftie Papist wil be glad of any cause of quarelling the more circumspect therefore ought the minister to be in taking héede lest he giue iust cause of the same But there be honest godly and zelous men also that cannot abide s che disorder and contempt whome peraduenture you would gladly straine with the note
by the Admonition to proue that ministers were knowen by voice learning and doctrine and you transferre them to apparell that eyther Samuel nor the Apostles nor our Sauioure Christ did weare any distinct apparell from others which liued in their times For if Samuell being then the seer had had a seuerall apparell whiche was proper to the seers it is not like that Saule woulde haue asked of himselfe where his house was And if the Apostles had worne a seuerall apparell from the 〈◊〉 they should not haue bin esteemed by so generall and vncertaine a note as of speaking somewhat brodely or as I may terme it Northēly for it had bin a surer note to haue said thou art one of his Apostles bycanse none weareth this apparel but his Apostles where there was a great number that spake Galilean like which were not of his Apostles nor disciples neyther But let these goe You say our sauioure Christ had a seuerall apparell bycause he had a cote without seame Assuredly you might vse lesse scornefulnesse in rehearsing of other mens arguments if for no other cause yet for this that they might take more pitie of yours For what an argument is this our fauioure Christ did weare an vnder garment which could not be well parted but with the spoyle or marring of it therefore he ware a seuerall apparell from the rest It is true Iohn Baptist had a seuerall apparell and to help you so had Elias but to this end that both by his vnwonted apparell and straunge diet which he vsed oflocusts and wild honey the extraordinaries of his ministerie might be set foorth and the people the rather moued to enquire of his office whome they sawe to varrie so much from the common customs of other men But ministers now haue no such extraordinarie functions therefore by that reason of yours they shoulde not be seuered from other men by any note of apparell You say you know that the cheefe notes of a minister are doctrine and learning if you meane that the distinction of apparell must supply the rest and that that also hath some force to commend their ministerie the Prophets and Apostles of our sautoure Christ left vs no (a) A table reason perfect patterne of a minister nor no sufficient glasse to dresse him by whereof (b) Vntrue as shall appeare the most part neuer vsed any such seuerall 〈◊〉 and none of them haue leit any commaundement of it Io. Whitgifte They be coniectures indéede and méere coniectures but without all shadowe of probabilitie The vnapt reasons of the Admonitors dissembled by T. C. or reason and if you will giue me leaue so to coniectnre I will proue any thing But such slender coniectures argueth the slendernesse of your proofes The Admonition vseth thōse places to proue that ministers were then knowen by voice learning and doctrine which how they or you can conclude of them I confesse that I cannot imagine excepte you will say that Samuell said vnto Saule I am the seer and they that stoode by said vnto Peter-euen thy speach bewrayeth thee therefore ministers were knowen by voice learning and doctrine which is asmuche as though you woulde saye Saule knew Samuell by Samuels owne report and a welchman is knowen by his tong rgo ministers are knowen by voyce ▪ learning and doctrine is not this a proper kind of reasoning is this the reuerence due to the scriptures thus 〈◊〉 to abuse them But say you if Samuell had had a seuerall apparell proper to the Seers it was not like that Saule would haue asked of him where his house was Nay you shoulde rather haue sayde that it is like that Saule being a rud y and brought vp only in keeping of cattell had neuer séene prophet before and therefore could not know Samuell what kind of apparell soeuer he had worne And that this is true that Saule did not know what a Séer meant and that he did neuer sée any before it may appeare in the same chapter And therefore saith M. Mart vpon that 18. verse of the. 9. Chapter Saule is so rude in P. Martyr the common wealth and such a straunger from ciuill affaires that he did not so muche as know Samuell although he were both iudge of the people and the magistrate and Prophet and the captaine of the host Moreouer M. Caluine vpon the. 23. of Math. proueth out of the. 13. Chapter of Zach. Prophets knowne by a distinct apparell Caluine Zach. 13. that the prophets were distinguished and knowne from other men by a certaine and peculiar forme of s. And the very wordes of the 〈◊〉 fourth verse of that Chapter of Zacharie doth euidently proue it for there the Lord aith In that day shall the Prophets be ashamed c. neyther shall they weare a rough garment to 〈◊〉 ▪ Upon the which words the note in the bible printed at Geneua is this They shall no more weare Prophets apparell to make their doctrine seeme more holy ▪ to the which also agreth M. 〈◊〉 vpon the same place and addeth these words This is the summe that thys kind of vesture was not reproued in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as some men 〈◊〉 do wrest this place to condemne long gownes and what soeuer doth not please their waywardnesse c. Whereby it is euident that the Prophets did weare and were knowen by a peculiar kind of garment If you enquire of the practise we haue diuers examples yea euen of Samuell whome we now haue in hand For one thing that 〈◊〉 Saul that he whome the wytch had raysed was Samuell was the de ption of his apparell 1. Sam. 28. There commeth vp an old man with a mantell vpon him ▪ And Saule perceyued 1. Sam. 28. that it was Samuel c. It cannot be thought that Saule conceyned this opinion bycause she named an olde man but bycause she added his mantell and kind of attireWe reade likewise of Elyas 2. Reg. 1. 2. that he had a heary or rough mantell agreing to the description in the Prophet Zacharie and a leather girdell wherby he was knowne of Ahazia And this is by you confessed Elizeus succéedeth Elias both in office and vesture And Iohn Baptist did not only represent Elias his spirit but also his kind of garmente for his rough garment of camels heare and leather girdle are described by Saint Mathew cap. 3. I suppose now that the manifest scripture the opinion of learned interpreters and the practise of so many notable Prophets do sufficiently iustify my assertion and are able to improue your probable coniectures as you tearme them Touching Peter what kinde of apparell soeuer he did weare the matter is not great it is the fond reason of theirs that I reproue which is tootoo childish as I haue shewed before and yet may it be supposed that Peter vsed all the meanes he coulde not to be knowen and therefore whether he cast off his vppermost garment or changed it it may be a question
be obserued c. And M. Foxe tom 1. Pag. 12. reporting these two Canons sayth thus First in the Councell of M. Foxe Nice which was the yeare of our Lorde 340. and in the sixt Canon of the sayde Councell we finde it is so decreed that in euery Prouince or Precinct some one Church Byshop of the same was appoynted set vp to haue the inspection regiment of other Churches about him Secundum morem antiquum that is after the auncient custome as the wordes of the Councell do purport So that the Byshop of Alexandria shoulde haue power of Libia and Pentapolis in Egipt for as much as the Byshop of the Citie of Rome hath the like or same manner Nowe if I might as safely alleage the Canons of the Apostles as you doe then coulde I tell you that in the. 33. Canon which Canon is alleaged as good authoritie against the supremacie of the Byshop of Rome you shall finde Archbyshops For that Canon setting an order among Bishops willeth the Byshops of euery nation to knowe their first or chiefe Byshop and him to be taken for the head of them The wordes of the Canon be these Cuiusque gentis Episcopos oportet sc re quisnam Cano. Apo. 33. alias 35. inter ipsos primus sit habereque ipsum quodammodo pro capite neque sine illius voluntate quicquam agere insolitum The Bishops of euery countrie must knowe who is chiefe among them and must take him as it were for their head neyther muste they doe any vnaccustomed thing without his will and euery one must doe those things alone by him selfe which belong to his parishe and to the places that be vnder him But neither must he do any thing without the will of all them for so shall concorde be kept and God shall be glorified through our Lord in the holy Ghost Now I pray you tell me what difference there is betwixt the first or chiefe Byshop or head of the reste and Archbyshop And least you shoulde thinke this Canon to be of small force as suspected you shall heare it almost verbatim repeated and confirmed by the Councell of Antioche In euery countrey it is conuenient that Concil Antioc Can. 9. the Byshops should knowe that their Metropolitane Byshop beareth the care of the whole Prouince VVherefore let all those that haue any businesse repaire to the Metropolitane citie And for this cause it is thought good that he both shoulde excell in honour and that the other Bishops do no vnaccustomed thing without him according to the auncient rule appointed of our fathers sauing those things onely which belong to their owne Diocesse and to the places that are vnder them For euery Byshop hath power ouer his owne parishe to rule them according to reuerence meete for euerye one and to prouide for all the countrey that are vnder his citie so that he ordeyne both Priests and Deacons and conteine all things with his iudgement But further let him attempt nothing without the Metropolitane neither let the Metropolitane do any thing without the aduise of the other You haue now the Canon of the Apostles confirming Archbyshops and the Councell of Nyce Antioche alleaging olde custome for them and confirming them also And a little before In the. 7. Diuision before I declared vnto you out of M. Foxe that there were Archbyshops here in England Anno. 180. So that their fall cannot be very great Chap. 2. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3. What no mention of him in Theophilus Bishop of Antioche none in Ignatius none in Clemens Alexandrinus none in Iustine Martyr in Ireneus in Tertullian in Origine in Cyprian none in all those olde Historiographers oute of the which Eusebius gathereth his storie was it for his basenesse and smalnesse that he coulde not be seene among the Byshops Elders and Deacons beyng the chiefe and principall of them all Can the Cedar of Libanon be hyd among y e Boxe trees Aristotle in his Rhethoricke ad Theodecten sayth that it is a token of contempt to forget the name of an other Belike therefore if there were any Archbyshop he had no chaire in the Churche but was as it seemeth digging at the metalles for otherwyse they that haue filled their booke with the often mentioning of Byshops would haue no doubt remembred him Io. Whitgifte And what then is not the Councell of Nice and of Antioche of as good credite as all these Shall not Athanasius Epiphanius Ambrose Hierome Chrysostome Sozomene c. counteruaile them and yet if you had read these authors you might haue learned that in the most of them the office of an Archbyshop is expressed as my answere following declareth But still you vse negatiue reasons ab authoritate and that humane Your tauntes and frumpes I let passe they are confutation sufficient to them selues Chap. 2. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Page 70. Sect. 3. 4. But let vs heare what the Councell of Nyce hath for these titles In the sixth Canon mention is made of a Metropolitane Byshop what is that to the Metropolitane which nowe is eyther to the name or to the office Of the office it shall appeare afterwardes In the name I thinke there is a great difference betwene a Metropolitane Byshop and Metropolitane of England or of all England A Metropolitane Byshop was nothing else but a Byshop of that place which it pleased the Emperor or Magistrate to make the chiefe citie of the Diocesse or shire aad as for this name (*) An vntruth contrarie to the manifest wordes of the Councell of Nice it maketh no more difference betwene Byshop and Byshop than when I say a Minister of London and a Minister of Nuington There is no man that is well aduised which will gather of this saying that there is as great difference in preheminence betwene those two Ministers as is betwene London and Nuington For his office and preheminence we shall see hereafter Io. Whitgifte For the full answering of this it shall be sufficient to set downe the iudgement of certaine of the learned writers of our time touching the true meaning of that Canon The iudgement of learned writers of the. 6. can con N cem Caluine of the Councell of Nyce as the practise of the Church before that time at that tyme and since that time haue expounded it M. Caluine in his Institutions Chap. 8. Sect 54. sayth thus That euery prouince had among their Byshops an Archbyshop And that the Councel of Nice did appoynt Patriarkes which should be in order and dignitie aboue Archbyshops it was for the preseruation of discipline M. Caluine sayth the Councell of Nyce did appoint Patriarkes which shoulde be in order and dignitie aboue Archbyshops He sayth also that euery Prouince had among their Byshops an Archbyshop Il yricus in his cataloge testium veritatis speaking of this Councel sayth thus Constituit Illyricus quoque haec Synodus vt singularum
to whom God hath committed the sworde of gouernment such insolent audacitie against states and lawfull regiment is rather to be corrected with due punishment than confuted by argument T. C. Page 74. Sect. 6. 7. 8. As for Prelate of the Garter if it be a needefull office there are inowe to execute it besydes the Ministers which for as much as they be appointed to watche ouer the soules of men purchased with the bloude of Christ all men vnderstand that it is not meete that they shoulde attend vpon the bodie muche lesse vpon the legge and least of al vpon the Garter It is not vnlawfull for Princes to haue Ministers of their honor but also it is not lawfull to take those that God hath appoynted for another ende to vse to such purposes Thou seest here good reader that M. Doctor kepeth his olde wont of (*) Vntruthe manifest peruerting of the wordes and meanyng of the authors of the Admonition For whereas they saye that the name of Erle Countie Palatine Iustice of peace and Quorum Commissioner are Antichristian when they are giuen to the ministers of the Churche whose calling wil not agree with such titles he concludeth simply that they saye they be altogether vnlawfull and simply antichristian as if I should reason that it is not meete that the Queenes Maiestie should preache or minister the Sacramentes therefore it is not meete that there shoulde be any preachyng or Ministring of the Sacramentes Nowe letting passe all your hard wordes and vnbrotherly speaches with your vncharitable prognostications and colde prophesies I will come to examine whether you haue any better hap in prouing the office than you haue had in prouing the name Io. Whitgifte I sée no cause why he that is prelate of the garter maye not also sufficiently discharge his duetie in watching ouer the soule for I thinke the garter dothe not require such continuall or great attendance Those that are appointed to watche ouer y e soule are not exempted from bodily seruice to their Prince excepte you will take from the Prince not onely authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters as you haue done but ouer Ecclesiasticall persons also as by this and such other lyke assertions you séeme to doe ▪ But here of more in place I peruert not the wordes of the Admonition as appeareth by their manifest wordes what their meaning is God knoweth But how little authoritie these offices should haue if your plat forme were framed shall be declared when I come to your seigniorie neyther the names nor offices that come from a Christian Prince that detesteth Antichrist can be called Antichristian vpon whom soeuer they be bestowed Wherevnto this your example tendeth of the Quéenes Maiestie wise men may easily coniecture It smelleth of that Papisticall cauillation Scilicet that we giue to hir Maiestie authoritie to preach and to administer the sacramentes bycause we acknowledge hir lawfull authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes I pray God my prognostications be not to true the more I consider of your booke the more I am driuen to suspect it My hard speaches be within the bondes of modestie but yours may better beséeme the order you talke of then a man of your profession Chap. 2. the. 43. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 68. Sect. 1. 2. Lordes Grace Lordbishop honor c. be names of reuerence teachyng vs to acknowledge our duetie towardes our superiours and their authoritie ouer vs. And it is much more to be reprehended not to giue honor to whom honor is due then to receyue honor when it is due You maye and you please in verye auncient Histories and in Titles of dig nitie in ministers not Antichristian great learned fathers see as honorable and reuerent titles giuen vnto Byshops as these be And surely it is not Antichristian to be called by names and titles not ambitiously soughte for but orderly and lawfully giuen according to the condition and state of the place wherin a man is But it is Antichristian that is proude presumptuous disdainfull arrogant and contemptuous to refuse to giue to euery one that name and title that by law ciuilitie and duetie of vs is required and expresseth our reuerence duetie and obedience You would speake as much of names of honor and reuerence in other persons if you durste be so bolde wyth them as you thinke you may be with some Io. Whitgifte Nothing is sayde to this The offices of Archbishops c are not strange or vnheard of in Christes Church and of superioritie among the Cleargie Chap. 3. the first Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 68. Sect. 3. 4. Pag. 69. Sect. 1. Nowe it followeth to proue that the offices signifyed by these names are not straunge and vnheard of in Christes Churche neyther yet plainly in Gods worde forbidden that they are not to be remoued but as most necessarie to be reteined It is without all doubte that both these names and offices haue Antiquitie of the offices bene in Christes Church long before Nicene Councell and that they haue had in the same continuance euen to this daye as partlye if may be gathered by that which I haue spokē before and most manifestly by all histories and learned writers from before that Councell of Nyce to this instant houre and therefore they little consydered what they writte when they set it downe that these names and offices were straunge and vnheard of in the Church of Christ. These men contemning auncient writers neuer read them that is the cause of such vnlearned assertions T. C. Pag. 75. Sect. 1. And wheras in the former treatise of the name of the Archbyshop he blew the trumpet before the victorie heere in this of the office he bloweth it before he commeth into the fielde or striketh one stroke saying that they little consider what they write that they are contemners of auncient writers and that they neuer read them and that they are vnlearned which denie these things which he affirmeth Well what we reade howe vnlearned we are is not the matter whiche we striue for the iudgemente thereof is first with God ▪ then with the Churches and in their iudgementes we are content to reste But if you be so greatly learned and we so vnlearned and smally read then the truth of oure cause shall more appeare that is maynteined with so small learnyng and reading agaynst men of such profound knowledge great reading And yet I knowe not why if we be not tooidle we should not be hable to reade as much as you which may haue leysure to reade a good long writer or euer you can ryde onely to see and salute your houses and liuings being so many and so farre distant one from an other And if we be so vnlearned and holde suche daungerous opinions of Papistrie and anabaptisme as you beare men in hand we doe why do you not by the example of the Ministers in Germanie procure a publike disputation where you may both winne
such proportion of antiquitie for your Pope to be cheefe head of the whole Churche as is to be shewed for Archbishops to be the chiefe Bishops in their owne prouinces c. Hitherto M. Nowell I marueyle that you will ioyne with the Papistes in so grosse a reason Chap. 3. the. 32. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82 Sect. 1. If you say that the Archbishop of England hath his authoritie graunted of the Prince the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas which was Emperour of al Christendome did graunt him his authoritie ouer all Churches But you will say that is a lie but the Pope will set as good a face and make as great a shew therein as you do in diuerse poyntes here But admit it to be yet I say further that it may come to passe and it hath bene that there may be one Christian Cesar ouer all the realmes which haue Churches What if he then will giue that authoritie to one ouer all that one king graunteth in his lande may any man accept and take at his handes such authoritie and if it be not lawfull for him to take that authoritie tell me what fault you can finde in him which may not be founde in them Io. Whitgifte The Pope doth chalenge muche of his temporalties from Constantinus and Phocas but his supremacie and iurisdiction ouer all Churches he claymeth from Peter and from Christe wherein his clayme is more intollerable being most false and his iurisdiction more vsurped beyng wrongfully chalenged you erre therefore in that oynt greatly The Archbishop doth exercise his iurisdiction vnder the Prince and by the Princes authoritie For the Prince hauing the supreme gouernment of the realme in all causes and ouer all persons as she doth exercise the one by the Lorde Chancellor so doth she the other by the Archbishops Your supposition of one Cesar ouer all realmes that haue Churches is but supposed and therfore of no weight but admit it were true yet is there not the like reason for one Archbishop to be ouer all those Churches and ouer one prouince the reasons I haue alleaged before out of M. Caluine other neither is there any man not wilfully blinded or papistically affected that seeth not what great diuersitie there is betwixt one prouince and many kingdomes the gouernment of the one and the gouernment of the other Si vnus duodecim bominibus praefuit an propterea sequetur vnum debere Inst. cap. 8. centum millibus hominum praefici If one was ouer twelue men shall it therefore follow that one may be appoynted ouer an hundred thousand men Sayth M. Caluine Chap. 3. the. 33. Diuision T. C. Pag. 82. Sect. 2. It will be sayd that no one is able to do the office of a Bishop vnto all the whole Church neyther is there any one able to do the office of a byshop to the whole Churche of England for when those which haue bene most excellent in knowledge and wisdome and most ready and quicke in doing and dispatching matters being alwayes present haue founde ynough to do to rule and gouerne one seuerall congregation what is he which absent is able to discharge his duetie toward so many thousand churches And if you take exception that although they be absent yet they may do by vnder ministers as Archdeacons Ehauncellors Officials Commissaries and such other kinde of people what do you else say than the Pope which sayeth that by his Cardinalles Archbishops and Legates and other such lyke he doth all things For with their handes he ruleth all and by their feete he is present euery where and with their eyes he seeth what is done in all places Let them take heede therefore least if they haue a common defense with the Pope that they be not also ioyned nearer with him in the cause than peraduenture they be aware of (a) Who can beleue you mean good fayth ▪ Truly it is agaynst my will that I am constrayned to make such comparisons not that I thinke there is so great diuersitie betweene the Popedome and the Archbyshopricke but bycause there being great resemblance betwene them I meane hauing regard to the bare functiōs without respecting the doctrine good or bad which they vphold that I say there being great resemblance betwene them there is yet as I am persuaded great difference betwene the persons that execute them The which good opinion conceyued of them I do most humbly beseech them by the glorie of God by the libertie of the Churche purchased by the precious bloud of our sauiour Christe and by their owne saluation that they would not deceyue by reteyning so harde such excessiue and vniust dominion ouer the Church of the liuing God Io. Whitgifte But one man may do the office of an Archbishop in one prouince euery seuerall diocesse whereof hath a Bishop And one man may do the office of a Bishop in one diocesse euery seuerall parishe whereof hath a seuerall Pastor The Archbishop hath a generall charge ouer the prouince to sée that vnitie be kept among the Bishops and that the Bishops do their duties according to the lawes and order of the Churche or else to sée them reformed according to the sayd lawes orders if they shall be cōplayned of to haue neglected the same The lyke care haue the Bishops ouer the seuerall Pastors of their diocesse and other persons Neyther doth their office consiste in preaching onely but in gouerning also in the respect whereof they are ouer aboue the rest This office of gouernment may be well executed in one prouince so much and so far as by the lawes is required and as is cōuenient for the state of the Church but it could not be so ouer all Christendome It may be that some Pastors hauing small charges and busie heades may finde and procure moe matters and controuersies than eyther they be able or willing to compound such busie Pastors there be in England but their vnquietnesse or lacke of abilitie to dispatch those controuersies which they themselues are the authors and causes of doth not proue but that eyther the Archbishop or Bishop may do those things sufficiently and well that do apperteyne to their office and calling So much may they do by vnder ministers as Archdeacons Chauncellors c. as by the rules of the Churche are permitted vnto them and may be conuenient for the time and persons But the office of preaching of ordeyning ministers of suppressing heresies and schismes with such lyke they do not commit vnto them but execute them themselues the which bycause they cannot do throughout all Churches as they may in one Prouince therefore your reason is no reason Moreouer a Bishop of one diocesse or prouince may haue conference with his Archdeacons and Chauncellor and be priuie to all and singular their doings So cannot the Pope with his Cardinalles Archbyshops and Legates c. dispersed thorough out whole Christendome And therefore an Archbishop or Bishop may
kinde of gouernment onely he mislyketh the name Hierarchia what can bée plainlyer spoken both of the name and office of the Archbishop As for your fonde deuise that it shoulde be his office onely to gather voyces c. it is singular to your selfe you haue not one learned wryter that I can read with you The Bishops that now are in this Church neyther haue nor chalenge to haue more iurisdiction than the olde Bishops had nay they haue not so much as it is euidently to be séene in the olde Canons and therefore M. Caluine allowing of them doth allow of ours also His place to the Philippians maketh agaynst you for he alloweth one to be superiour amongst the ministers and to rule the rest and sayth that as the nature and disposition of men nowe is there coulde be no order except it were so which doth vtterly ouerthrow the equalitie that you and the Admonition dreame of He saith that he speaketh de singulis corporibus which he cannot vnderstand of particular parishes for euery particular parishe hath not many ministers so that of necessitie he must haue manie senerall Churches to make the bodie he speaketh of and therefore a Diocesse or a prouince I thinke M. Caluine did thinke Geneua and the townes therevnto adioyning and belonging to be but one bodie so doe I thinke London and the Diocesse therevnto perteyning to be but one particular bodie And likewyse the Prouince of Canterburie distinguished into diuerse partes and members to be but one bodie in like maner Neyther do I thinke that master Caluine euer shewed his mislyking of these degrées in this Churche as they be nowe vsed for as I sayde before the great abuse of them vnder the Pope made him more to mislyke of them than hée woulde haue done but in these wordes that I haue repeated of his he testifyeth as T. C. letteth that slip that maketh against him much as I desire that is the antiquitie and the cause and vse of those offices and that which you omit and skip ouer that herein the olde Bishops did frame no kinde of gouernment in the Church diuerse from that which the Lord hath prescribed in his word which neyther you nor your adherents can abide to heare of Chap. 3. the. 71. Diuision T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. 3. But here I cannot let passe M. Doctours ill dealing whiche recyting so muche of master Caluine (*) Vniust accusation cutteth him off in the waste and leaueth quite oute that whiche made agaynst him that is whiche M. Caluine sayeth in these woordes Althoughe sayeth he in this disputation it may not be passed ouer that this office of Archbyshop or Patriarke was most rarely and seldome vsed which dealing seemeth to proceede of a verie euill conscience Io. Whitgifte I knowe not what perfection is in your booke more than in mine but I am sure that I haue followed mine owne booke faythfully and truely neither haue I omitted one worde that maketh eyther with me or agaynst me and therefore you haue vniustly charged mée The booke that I follow was printed Anno. 1553. wherein there are no such wordes that this office 〈◊〉 Archbishop or Patriarke was most rarely and seldome vsed Neither is there cause why M. Caluine shoulde so say for he could not but knowe that these offices haue had continuance in the Churche at the least since before the Councell of Nice for there are these wordes mos antiquus perduret c. and that they were continually affixed to the Bishoprikes of certaine Cities as Rome Antioch c. In déede in the last edition of his institutions he hath these wordes quanquam in hac disputatione praeteriri non potest quod rarissimi erat vsus which wordes he referreth to The vse of the Patriarch rare in what sense ▪ the office of a Patriarch whome he sayth the Nicene Councell did place in dignitie and order aboue Archbishops for the preseruation of discipline neither doth he say that the office of a Patriarke was moueable or chosen at euery action for then shoulde he affirme that which is repugnant to all Hystoryes Councelles ▪ and auncient wryters that speake of Patriarkes but his meaning is that there was but seldome tymes occasion offered for Patriarkes to exercise the authoritie they had ouer Archbishoppes which is the occasion that the most authours doe confounde them and thinke them to be all one other meaning than this his wordes neyther can nor doe admit Chap. 3. the. 72. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 74. Sect. vlt. Hemingius in his Enchirid. sheweth that these degrees in the Hemingi ▪ Church be necessarie that discipline cannot be kept without them And he addeth that their Church kepeth this forme Necmouetur saith he Anabaptistarum ac Libertinorū effreni libidine qui ecclesiam Christi barbaricum quendam bominū caetum sine ordine fingunt cū habeat nostra ecclesia non solū exemplū Apostolicae purioris ecclesiae verum etiam mandatum spiritus sancti omnia ordinaté decenter ad aedificationem faciendi Neyther is our Church moued vvith the licencious libertie of Anabaptists and Libertines vvhich feine the Church of Christ to be a barbarous confused societie vvithout order seeing that our Church hath not onely the example of the Apostolicall and most pure Church but also the commaundement of the spirite of God to do all things orderly and decently to edifie T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. 4. Then followeth Hemingius who you say approueth these degrees of Archbishop Metropolitane Bishop Archdeacon for so you must needes meane when you say he approueth these Cap. 10. 3. class lib. Enchirid. vvhere also among the popish orders he reckeneth the 〈◊〉 degrees or else you say nothing for therevpon is the question Nowe howe vntruly you speake let it be iudged by that which followeth First he sayth that our Sauiour Christ in S. Luke distinguisheth and putteth a difference betweene the office of a Prince and the office of the Minister of the Church leauing dominion to the Princes and taking it altogither from the Ministers ▪ here you see not onely howe he is agaynst you in your exposition in the place of S. Luke which woulde haue it nothing else but a prohibition of ambition but also howe at a worde he cutteth the throte of your Archbishop and Bishoppe as it is nowe vsed And afterwarde speaking of the Churches of Denmarke he sayeth they haue Christ for their heade and for the outwarde discipline they haue Magistrates to punishe with the sworde and for to exercise the ecclesiasticall discipline they haue Bishoppes Pastours Doctours which may keepe men vnder with the worde without vsing any corporall punishment Here is no mention of Archbyshoppes Primates Metropolitanes And althoughe he sheweth that they keepe the distinction betweene Bishoppes and Ministers agaynst which there hath beene before spoken yet he sayeth that the authoritie which they haue is as the authoritie of a father not as the power
prayers peraduenture you would haue alleaged the 1. to Timo. 2. I exhort therefore that first of all supplications c. which maketh directly agaynst you Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 78. Sect. 1. If you meane by prayers inuented by man such prayers as man inuenteth against the worde of God as prayer for the dead prayer vnto saincts such like then it is true that you say But if you mean such prayers as by godly men be framed according to the holy scriptures whether they be for matters perteyning to the life to come or to this life then you shew your ignorāce for it is manifest that there hath bene alwayes in the Church of Christ a prescript forme of publike prayer as it appeareth in Iustinus Martyr Apol. 2. Pro Christianis other Iustinus Martyr auncient fathers neyther did euer any learned or godly man or reformed Church finde faulte herewith or not greatly cōmende the same except onely the secte of Anabaptistes T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. vlt. Pag. 106. Sect. 1. It is not to any purpose that M. Doctor setteth himself to proue that there may be a prescript order of prayer by Iustine Martyres testimonie which notwithstanding hath not one worde of prescript forme of prayers only he sayth there were prayers he sayth in deede the auncient fathers say that there hath bene alwayes such kinde of prayers in the Churches and although they do say so yet all men may vnderstand easily that M. Doctor speaketh this rather by contecture or that he hath hearde other men say so for so much as that Doctor which he hath chosen out to speake for ll the rest hath no such thing as he fathereth on him He sayeth that after they haue baptized they pray for themselues and for him that is baptized and for all men that they may be meete to learne the truth and to expresse it in their honest conuersation and that they be founde to keepe th mmaundementes that they may atteyne to eternall life but is this to say that there was a prescript forme of prayer when he sheweth nothing els but the chiefe poynts vpon the which they conceyued their prayers If you had alleaged this to proue what were the matters or principall poynts that the Primitiue Churche vsed to pray for you had alleaged this to purpose but to alleage it for a proofe of a prescript forme of prayer when there is not there mentioned so much as the essentiall forme of prayer which is the asking of our petitions in the name and thorough the intercession of our Sauiour Christ without the which there is not nor cannot be any prayer argueth that eyther you little know what the forme of prayer is or that you thought as you charge the authors of the Admonition so often that this geare of yours should neuer haue come to the examination But for as much as we agree of a prescript forme of prayer to be vsed in the Church let that go this that I haue sayde is to shew that when M. Doctor happeneth of a good cause which is very seldome in this booke yet then he marreth it in the handling Io. Whitgifte I haue the lesse laboured in this point bicause it is a thing so generally allowed of in all Churches in all times and so vnlearnedly impugned by the authors of the Admonition Iustinus Martyr maketh much for my purpose for in that he doth rehearse those chiefe poyntes of theyr prayers then vsed it is manifest that they had a prescript order and forme of prayer the which no man can denie that readeth the place I graunt that these wordes prescript forme of prayer are not there to be founde Yet is there a prescript order and forme by him generally described whereby it is more than probable that at that tyme there was vsed a prescript forme of prayer In the 3. Councell Con Carth. 3 Can. 23. of Carthage we finde this Canon Let no man vse the formes of prayer which he hath framed to himselfe without conference with brethren that are better learned Whereby it may euidently be gathered that at that time there was a prescript forme of prayer vsed and that it was not lawfull to vse any new forme of priuate prayers except the same were allowed by the brethren But for as much as in this poynt you consent with me and graunt that there may be a prescript forme of prayer I will omitte whatsoeuer I had purposed to haue sayde more in that matter and so I will do also your taunts respecting the matter rather than Lucians Rhetoricke Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 78. Sect. 2. 3. Damasus was a good Bishop therfore no good thing by him appointed Damasus added Glori Patri c ▪ to be disallowed but he did not first ordeyne a prescript forme of publike prayers he onely added something therevnto As Gloria patri c. to the end of euery psalme And decreed that Psalmes should be song aswell in the night time as in the day time in euery Church but they were song in the Church before and as I haue sayde there was a prescript forme of prayer in Iustinus Martyrs time who was long before Damasus Gregorie added the Letanie onely I muse what you meane to Gregory made the Letanie write so manifest vntruthes Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered to this Chap. 2. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 79. Sect. 1. You note not here neyther are you able any prayer in the whole Cōmunion booke wherein there is any thing not agreeable to Gods worde we may say as S. Augustine sayth in his 121. Epistle written Ad Probam viduam Etsi per omnia praecationum sanctarum verba discurras quantum existim Augustine nihil inuenies quod non ista Dominica contineat concludat orati Vnde liberum est alijs atque alijs verbis eadem tamen in orando dicere sed non debet esse liberum alia dicere And if thou runnest thorough all the vvordes of the holy prayers I suppose thou shalt finde nothing vvhich the Lordes prayer doth not conteyne and comprehende therefore vve may in other vvordes speake the same thinges in our prayers but vve may not speake contrarie things T. C. Pag. 106. Sect. 1. 2. After he a irmeth that there can be nothing shéwed in the whole booke which is not agreeable to the worde of God I am very loth to enter into this fielde albeit M. Doctor doth thus prouoke me both bycause the Papistes will lightly take occasion of euill speaking when they vnderstande that we do not agree amongst our selues in euery poynt as for that some fewe professoures of the Gospelt being priuate men boldened vpon such treatises take such wayes sometimes and breake forth into such speaches as are not meete nor conuenient Io. Whitgifte In so saying I do fullie agrée with such as haue
not somtime pray and sometimes reade the scriptures what do we else in the whole order of our seruice will you still more and more vtter your contempt agaynst God against his Church against a most pure and godly kynde of publike prayer and seruice and that with such vnreuerend speaches But I omit thē it is inough to haue noted thē in the margent for they are cōfutation to thēselues Chap. 2. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 108. Sect. vlt. If a man should come to a Prince and keepe such order in making his petitions vnto him that hauing very many things to demaunde after he had demaunded one thing he woulde stay a long tyme and then demaunde another and so the thirde the Prince might well thinke that eyther he came to aske before he knew what he had neede of or that he had forgotten some piece of his sute or that he were distracted in his vnderstanding or some other such like cause of the disorder of his supplication And therefore how much more conuenient were it that according to the maner of the reformed Churches first the minister with an humble and generall confession of faults should desire the assistance of the Lord for the fruteful handling and receyuing of the worde of God and then after that we haue heard the Lorde speake vnto vs in his worde by his minister the Church should likewise speake vnto the Lorde and present all those petitions and sutes at once both for the whole Church and for the Prince and all other estates which shall be thought needfull Io. Whitgifte As much differencs as there is betwixt man and God so farre is your similitude The dissimilitude of the replyers similitude from prouing your purpose except you will admit the like similitude vsed by the Papists to proue praying to Saints for the one hath as muche strength to proue ani thing as the other and yet neither of them both worth a rush And here you doe iniurie to God to compare him to an earthly Prince especially in this behalfe For what Prince would not thinke himselfe abused if a man shoulde dayly and hourely sue vnto him But it is not so with God for we haue a commaundement to pray continually Luke 18. 1. Thes. 5. and he doth not respect the forme of wordes but the affection of the heart And in verie déede it is most conuenient that reading of the scriptures and praying should be intermingled All the scripture that you haue to alledge is the reformed Churches let other men thinke what they will I verily beléeue that in our maner and kinde of worshipping God in our publike and common prayers there is no cause why we shoulde thinke our selues one whit inferiour vnto them they also or the must part of them haue allowed the same order of ours at what time the like contention was about the same booke amōg our English mē which were in Q. Maries time banished for the gospel Chap. 2. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. I. And if any will say that there are short prayers found in the Acts it may be answered that S. Luke doth not expresse the whole prayers at large but only set downe the summes of them their chiefe poyntes And further it may be answered that alwayes those prayers were continued togyther and not cut off and shred into diuerse small pieces Io. Whitgifte Howe knowe you that S. Luke doth not expresse the whole prafers at large but onely set down the sums of thē their chief points What scripture haue you that teacheth you so to think if this be a sufficient answere to say the scripture hath not expressed the whole c. Why is it not also a sufficient answere for me to that which foloweth that the scripture The scripture hath not prescribed any forme of publike prayer ▪ hath not expressed any certaine or determinate forme of publike prayer to be vsed in all Churches as in déede it hath not but onely in the Lordes prayer giuen certaine generall poynts according to the whiche all our prayers must be framed Surely your fansie is strong but your arguments be excéeding weake For tell mée I pray you where haue you in the whole newe testament the Lordes prayer onely excepted any forme of publike prayer vsed in the Church described If you cannot shewe this why do you so childishly dallie Chap. 2. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. 2. Another fault is that all the people are appoynted in diuerse places to say after the Minister whereby not onely the tyme is vnprofitably wasted and a confused voyce of the people one speaking after another caused but an opinion bred in their heades that those onely be theyr prayers which they say and pronounce with their owne mouthes Which causeth them to giue the lesse heede to the rest of the prayers which they rehearse not after the Minister which notwithstanding are as well their prayers as those which they pronounce after the Minister otherwise than the order which is left vnto the Church of God doth beare For God hath ordeyned the Minister to this ende that as in publike meetings he onely is the mouth of the Lorde from him to the people euen so he ought to be (*) Vntruth ▪ onely the mouth of the people from them vnto the Lorde and that all the people should attende to that which is sayde by the Minister and in the ende both declare their consent to that which is sayde and their hope that it shall so be and come to passe whiche is prayed by the worde Amen As S. Paule declareth in the Epistle to the Corinthians And Iustine Martyr 1. Cor. 14. 1. Apol. pro Christianis sheweth to haue bene the custome of the Churches in his time Io. Whitgifte God be thanked that the booke is so per te that you are constreyned for sauing your credite with your Disciples thus triflingly to deale with it you vnchristianly say that the time is vnprofitably wasted which is spent in prayer you imagine that of the people that neuer entered into their thoughts you call it a confused voyce that is a most acceptable sounde vnto the Lorde and if to surmise or to imagine be sufficient then may we imagine your doctrine to tende to the contempt of prayer and the ouerthwarting of all good and godly order But you must knowe that there is more speciall cause why the people should rather reherse after the Minister those things that the booke appoynteth them so to do than the other prayers bicause they conteyne a generall confession of sinnes which all Christians togither as well in voyce as in heart ought to confesse neyther doth the booke prescribe the people to say any thing after the Minister the Lordes prayer after the Communion onely excepted but these generall Muscul. in 〈◊〉 Math. and publike confessions and yet if it did I sée not howe you can iustly therefore reproue it Musculus
dothe not permit Deacons to minister the supper of the Lorde and that by way of allowing of the booke and here proueth that the Deacons dyd minister the sacrament of the Supper and that also as a thyng whyche he dothe allowe of But to let that passe I beseeche thee good Reader marke what a (*) An 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cauill ministring of the Supper thys is whiche Iustine maketh mention of and note wyth what conscience M. Doctor handleth this cause Iustine sayth that after the Scriptures are read and preached of and prayers made bread and wyne and water was broughte foorth and that the minister made prayers and thankesgiuing in the hearing of the people whych is that whyche the Euangelistes call the blessing and hath beene of later times called the consecration and after that the people were partakers of them that then thys beeing done the Deacons doe carry of that whych was left vnto those whych were not present for that corruption of sending the Communion vnto the houses was then in the Churche agaynst whych I haue before spoken now if to carry to a priuate house the bread and wyne whyche was blessed or set aparte by prayers and by obeying the institution of Christ by the minister be to minister the sacrament of the Supper than Serapions boy of whome mention is made by Eusebius ministred the sacrament For Serapion beeing sicke as Li. 6. ca. 43 I haue before shewed and sending hys boy to the minister for the sacrament receyued the same at the hands of his boy for that the minister beeing sicke could not come hym selfe So by M. Doctors reason Serapions boy ministred the sacrament Io. Whitgifte Where dothe M. Doctor saye that Deacons dyd minister the Lordes supper set downe his wordes Is there no ende of your falsifying and vntrue gathering Let the Reader compare the wordes that I haue recited out of Iustinus Martyr wyth your collection and then iudge of the honestie and sinceritie of your dealing The Admonition so speaketh of Deacons as thoughe their office in the primitiue Church had béene onely to gather and to distribute almes This I denye and proue that Deacons dyd then also preache baptise and distribute the bread and the wyne in the administration of the Lordes Supper I no where saye neyther doe I beléeue that they dyd at any tyme minister the Lordes Supper and you mighte haue vnderstoode that to distribute the bread and wyne to the people in the administration of the Supper is not to minister the Sacrament of the Supper For these Deacons of whome Iustinus Martyr speaketh yea and Serapions boy also dyd the one but they dyd not the other and therefore the spirite of cauilling hathe dryuen you to thys surmise The. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 129. Lin. 11. A man would not thinke that one that hath beene the Queenes Masesties publike professor of Many wordes bestowed in the confutation of that whyche is not affirmed diuinitie in Cambridge should not know to distinguish put a difference betweene ministring the sacrament helping to distribute the bread the cuppe of the sacrament And if M. Doctor could not learne this in bookes yet he mighte haue eyther seene it or at least heard tell of it in all reformed Churches almost where the Deacons do assist the minister in helping of him to distribute the cup and in some places also the bread for the quicker and speedier dispatche of the people beeing so many in number that if they should al receyue the bread the cup at the ministers hand they should not make an end in eyght hours which by that assistance may be finished in two whych is that that M. Caluine sayth For he sayth the deacons did reach the cup maketh no mention of the bread And if this be to minister the sacramēt then they that cut the loafe in peeces they that fetch y e wine for the supper they that poure it foorth from greater vessels into glasses cuppes or whosoeuer aydeth any thing in this action doe minister the sacrament than the whych thing there can be nothing more ridiculous Io. Whitgifte A man would not haue thought that one which hath ambitiously desired to be the Quéenes Maiesties diuinitie reader yet pretēdeth such puritie simplicitie would vpon any occasion muche lesse of none vse suche contēmptuous deriding spéeches towards one not so muche his inferiour But I passe all ouer quietly desiring only the Reader to take these such like notes of your mortification modestie playne dealing And marke I pray you howe many words he spendeth in this place to confute me which speake no otherwise than he would haue me to speake Surely it is very like that when you were answering this parte the olde griefe conceyued for missing the diuinitie Lecture came into your minde so much ouercame you that you coulde not vnderstande what I had sayd otherwise it coulde not haue béene possible that a man in his right wittes should so farre haue béene ouershot For marke my saying that you confute and you shall finde it to differ very little in wordes but in effecte nothing at all from that which you in confutation héereof affirme to be the vse in reformed Churches The. 6. diuision Admonition Now it is the first steppe to the ministerie nay rather a meere order of Priesthoode Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 119. Lin. 2. It may well be counted the first steppe to the ministerie as it hathe beene from the Apostles tyme and S. Paule ioyneth them togither 1. Tim. 3. T. C. Page 129. Sect. 1. In the ende M. Doctor to shut vp thys matter sayth that it is the first steppe to the ministery and so ioyned of S. Paule in the thyrd chapter and fyrst Epistle to Timothie But what a reason is thys to be a Deacon is the fyrst steppe to the ministery therfore the Deacon may preach minister the sacraments when as the contrary rather followeth For if it be a steppe to the ministery then it is not the ministery but dyffereth from it and so ought not to doe the thyngs that belong to the minister Io. Whitgifte You are but disposed to counterfeite I must giue you leaue so to doe be content But I trust it will turne smally to your credite The wordes of the Admonition be these Now it is the fyrst steppe to the ministery nay rather a meere order of Priesthoode The which words I answere in this maner It may well be counted the first step to the ministerie as it hath bin from the Apostles time and S. Paul ioyneth them togither 1. Tim. 3. Now let the Reader consider whether I vse this for an argument or no to proue that a Deacon may preach minister the sacraments If I should so haue concluded the argument might haue bin proued for preaching and baptising but séeing my Answere is direct to the words of the 〈◊〉 in an other matter it is too much for you thus
the cōmon wealth the ci ill Magistrate the ecclesiasticall as you do throughout your whole booke it is no mar ell though you thinke No more authoriti 〈◊〉 ed to a ch istian Magistrate tha t the Turke the office of Seniors to be perpetuall For you giue no more authoritie to a Christian Magistrate in ecclesiasticall gouernment thā you would do to the Turke if you were vnder him And therfore according to your platforme the gouernment of the Church is all one vnder a christian Magistrate and vnder the great Turke But to l aue the Admonition what haue you spoken of the office of Seniors which is not eyther proper to the Pastor or cōmon to all Christians or such as may be much better brought to passe by the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate than by the ignorance simplicitie and rudenesse of the most of your Seniors But first let vs heare more of your 〈◊〉 before we come to vtter the absurditie of your cause Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 140. in the midst But I will yet come nearer That without the which the principall offices of charitie cannot be exercised is necessarie and alwayes to be kept in the Churche but the office of Auncients Elders are such as without which the principall offices of charitie can not be exercised therfore it followeth that this office is necessarie That the principal offices of charitie cannot be exercised without this order of Auncients it may appeare for that he which hath faulted and amēdeth not after he be admonished once pri ately and then before one witnesse or two cānot further be proceeded against Math. 18. according to the commaundement of our sauiour Christ onlesse there be in the Church Auncients d Elders therfore this principal office of charitie which tendeth to the amendment of him which hath not pr̄ofited by those two former admonitions can not be exercised without them For it is commaunded of our sauiour Christ that in such a case when a brother doth not proffite by these two warnings it should be tolde the Church Now I would aske who be ment by the Church heere if he say by the Church are ment al y e people then I will aske how a man can conueniently complayn to all the whole congregation or how can the whole congregation conueniently meete to decide of this matter I do not denie but the people haue an interest in the excommunication as shal be noted hereafter bu the matter is not so farre come for he must first refuse to obey the admonition of the Church or euer they can proceede so farre Wel if it be not the people that be ment by the Church who is it I heare M. Doctor say it is the Pastor but if he will say so speake so straungely he must warrant it with some other places of scripture where the Church is takē for one which is as much to say as one man is many one member is a body one alone is a companie And besides this strangenesse of speech it is cleane contrary to the meaning of our sauiour Christ and destroyeth the soueraintie of the medicine which our sauiour Christ prepared for such a festred sore as would neyther be healed with priu te admonition neyther w t admonition before one or two witnesses For as y e fault groweth so our sauior Christ would haue the nūber of those before whō he shuld be checked rebuked likewise grow Therfore from a priuate admonition he riseth vnto the admonitian before two or three from thē to the church which if we should say it is but one then to a dangerouser wound should be layd an easier plaster therfore our sauiour doth not rise from two to one for that were not to rise but to fall nor to proceede but to go backwarde but to many Seeing then that the church here is neyther the whole congregation nor the pastor alone it followeth that by the churche here he meaneth the pastor with the Auncients or Elders Or else whom can he meane And as for this maner of speech wherin by the church is vnderstanded the chiefe gouernours and Elders of the church it is oftentimes vsed in the olde Testament from the which our sauiour borrowed this maner of speaking as in Exodus it is sayd that Moses wrought his miracles before y e 4. chap. people when mention is made before onely of the Elders of the people whome Moses had called togither And most manifestly in Iosue where it is sayd that he that killed a man at vnwates shall 0. chap. returne vnto the citie vntill he stand before the congregation to be iudged Where by the congregation he meaneth the gouernours of the congregation for it did not appertayne to all to iudge of this case Likewise in the Cronicles and diuers other places nd therefore I conclude that for so 1. li. 13. cha muche as those be necessarie and perpetuall which are spoken of in those words tell the Churche and that vnder those words are comprehended the Elders or Auncients that the Elders auncients be necessarie and perpetuall officers in the churche Io. Whitgifte Héere are many words without matter a great thing pretended to no purpose for the principal offices of charitie both hath bin may be wel exercised without your Seniors Dic ecclesiae interpreted the place Mat. 18. doth in no respect proue the contrarie For it only teacheth an order howe to procéede charitably in priuate offences not in publike as I haue shewed before Moreouer to tel the Church is eyther publikly to reproue those that haue bin priuately in that maner admonished wil not repent or else to complayne vnto such as haue authoritie in the Churche according to that which I sayde before of this place in my Answere to y e Admonition And héerein you ioyne with me in that you take the Church there for the chief gouernours of the Church though we differ in y e persōs Church for the gouernors of the church For you will haue it onely ment of the Pastor Seniors and I thinke it signifieth more generally any which are lawfully appoynted to gouerne the church But whether it be one or more that hath this authoritie committed vnto him it is more to tell him than it is to tell twentie besides because he béeing in authoritie doth beare the office of a publike Magistrate who hath power publikely to correct that whiche was priuately cōmitted and therfore he that telleth one suche may wel be sayd to tell the Church bicause he telleth such a one as hath authoritie in the Church and is a publike person So that he riseth from priuate admonition to open complaint from priuate witnesses to a publike Magistrate and therfore this is to rise not to fal to procede not to goe backwarde But admit that mo than one is vnderstanded by the name of the Church whiche I also confesse yet doth it
disciplinae seuera misericordia necessaria est nam consilia separationis inania sunt perniti sa atque sacrilega quia impia superba fiunt plus perturbant infirmos bonos quà m corrigunt animosos malos Verily if the contagion of synne hath infected the multitude the seuere mercie of godlie discipline is necessarie for the purpose of separation is both vaine pernicious and sacrilegious bicause they are bothe wicked and presumptuous and doe more trouble the good that be weake than correcte or amend the euill that be stubborne Sainct Augustine doth not here alleadge this for a cause that sufficiente voyces can not be obteyned for excommunication as you pretende but he thinketh Excommunication to be altogether in vayne where the infection is generall But that it maye further appeare the doctrine that I affirme touchyng the authoritie Ex mmunication by bishops proued by the practise of the primi churche of Bishops in excommunicating to be true and to haue bene the vsuall practise of the Churche in the beste tyme and state of it I thoughte good in thys place to adde to my former testimonyes and answeres the authoritie of certaine Councels wherin the practyse of the Churche doth euidentely shew it selfe And fyrst to begynne with the Canons attributed to the Apostles and so ofte alleadged by T. C. In the. 32. or as it is in some bookes the. 33. of those Canons it is thus decréed Can. Apost 32. If any Priest or Deacon bee excommunicated of his Bishop it maye not bee lawfull for any other to receiue him but only the partie that hath separated him except that Bishop dye whiche hath excommunicated him in this Canon power to excommunicate and also to absolue is in plaine wordes committed to the Bishop alone The fifte Canon of the Councell of Nice speaketh of this matter in these wordes Con. Nicae can 5. Concernyng those that are separated from the Communion be they Clearkes or lay menne by the Bishops whiche are in euerie prouince Lette the sentence stande according to the canon whych doth pronounce those that are eiected of some not to be admitted of other But lette it bee examined whether the parties be excommunicated through the indignation or contention or frowardnesse of the Bishop and for this cause that the examination may be duly had let there be in euerie Prouince a Synode celebrated twice in the yeare The wordes be manyfeste and what néede suche pr sion for to examine the dooings of the Bishoppe if hée hadde not authoritie to Excommunicate alone The sixte Canon of the Councell of Antic he is this If any man hath bene excommunicated Con. Anti ch Can. 6. of his owne Bishop lette him not bee receyued of any other before he bee absolued of his owne Bishop or shall defende himselfe in a Synode and the Synode beeing persuaded receyue an other sentence The same decree is to bee obserued agaynst laye men and Priests and Deacons and those that be in the number of the Cleargie Why shoulde the Councell saye ee that is excommunicated of his owne Bishop c. if the authoritie and power of excommunicatyng did not belong to the Bishop alone In the seconde Councell of Carthage Canon 8. it is lykewyse determined That Con. Carthag 2. can 8. if a Priest beyng excommunicated or punished by his owne Bishop shall presume to celebrate he shall be accurssed In the sixte Councell of Carthage Can. 10. the same is affirmed Con. Carthag 6. can 10. In the Councell holden at Sardica Can. 13. or as it is in s me ookes 16. it is in lyke manner decréed That if a De con or a Priest or any of the leargie be excommunicated Con. Sardic Can. 13. of his owne Bishop and shall flee to an other Bishop vnderstanding that he is excommunicated of his owne Bishop he may not giue vnto hym the communion dooyng therby iniurie to his brother and fellowe Bishop By all these Canons and auncient Councels it is euident that from time to time euen in the best and purest state of the church Bishops alone haue had authoritie to excommunicate And least T. C. shoulde here flée to his olde shifte and newly deuised distinction The Bishop did excommunicate alone not as rator of the action that this is attributed to the Bishop bycause he was the chiefe of the action and did moderate it and not bycause the authoritie and power of excommunicatyng remayned in him alone althoughe the manyfest woordes of the Councells ouer ▪ throwe it and it is not to be iustifyed by any learning or good authoritie yet that the Con. Sard. Reader may the better vnderstande the vanitie of it I will recite the. 14. Canon or can 14. as it is in some bookes the. 17. canon of this Councell of Sardica wherein it dothe plainly appeare that the Bishop alone did excommunicate The canon is this If there shall be founde a Bishop prone to anger which ought not to be in such a man and being soone moued against a Priest or a Deacon shall caste him out of the churche or excommunicate him it must be foreseene that he be nor rashly condemned and excommunicated therfore lette him that is cast out haue libertie to complain to the Metropolitane of the same Prouince if he be absent then to the next Bishop c. and that Bishop which hath iustly or vniustly secluded him must be contente to haue his doings examined and his sentence either confirmed or corrected c. What néed these affections be seared in the Bishop if he could not excōmunicate without the consent of a Seigniorie or of the people For the Seigniorie might wel inough withstand this his hastynesse Wherfore it is playne that the Bishop alone may excommunicate But yet to cutte off all further cauilling I woulde haue you to vnderstande that I doo not so giue the authoritie of Excommunicating to the Bishop alone The authoritie of excommunication ascrided to the Byshop not in nite but l ces or to any one manne that I thynke hée maye excommunicate when he lyste withoute iuste cause and due proofe of the same my meanyng is not to make hym bothe accuser aud Iudge I doe not thinke that he oughte to excommunicate any before the partie be orderly and lawfully conuicted of suche crime or crimes as are to be punished by that Censure And that you maye knowe that I affirme nothing herein but the verie same that Saincte Augustine hath affirmed before me The practise in Augustins time and to the intente the worlde maye sée that my opinion in this poynte is not straunge or voyde of sufficiente authoritie I will sette downe his woordes as I fynde them in his booke De vtilitate necessitate poenitentiae and reported of Beda in Augustinus To. 10. ho. 50. his Commentaries vpon the fyrste Corinth 5. Althoughe some thinges be true yet the iudge muste not beleeue them vnlesse they bee sufficiently
opiniō touching Musculus the authoritie of y e ciuill Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters briefly but plainly in these wordes Those whome they call Ecclesiasticall persones and we call them Papistes will not commit to the magistrate any further authoritie in religion than to be the keeper and reuenger of it and of their Ecclesiasticall lawes that the ecclesiasticall pollicie maye remayne immouable wherefore they deny him to haue authoritie in that he is a magistrate to make or to publyshe any Ecclesiasticall lawes bicause suche things perteine to those that do represent the churche whose decrees and constitutions must bee mainteyned and defended by the authoritie of the magistrate This I thought good to nete before I come to answering of his argumentes that al men may vnderstand that I no otherwise charged them in this point than they haue well deserued neither haue I as yet detected all that they peruersly thinke of the authoritie of the ciuill magistrate one thing I praye you marke that here is one note A note of Anabaptisme practised by y e Rep r. practised that I haue ascribed to the Anabaptistes in my (*) Pag. 2. sect 2. Answere to the Admonition for there I shewe that the Anabaptistes accuse the true ministers of the Gospell for attributing as they saye to much to the ciuill magistrate The same doth T. C. charge me with in this place But I will nowe come to his argumentes The. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 154 Sect 1. This distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not heard of let him looke in the seconde booke of the Chronicles in the. 19. chap. and in the. 8. and. 11. verses hee shall see that there were a You alleage the reasons of the Papilies to the same purpose with them number appointed for the matters of the lord which were priests Leuites and there were other also appointed for the kings affaires and for matters of the common wealth amongest which were the Leuites which being more in number than could be applied to the vse of the churche were sette ouer ciuill causes being therfore moste fitte for that they were best learned in the lawes of God which were the polylike lawes of that countrey There he may learne if it please him that the making of orders and giuing of iudgementes in ciuill and Ecclesiasticall in common wealth and churche matters perteyned vnto diuers persons whiche distinction the writer to the Hebrewes doth note when he sayeth (*) that the Priest was ordeyned in thinges perteyning to God Hebr. 5. Io. Whitgifte Yes I bothe knowe this distinction and haue hearde of it for I haue redde it The 〈◊〉 vseth the same distinction reasons with the Papistes in the bookes of the Papistes as I haue shewed before I haue hearde also this same place of the. 2. Chro. 19. alleaged to confirme it For Saunders in his booke before named dothe vse it to the same ende and purpose that you do that is to proue the Ciuill Magistrate to haue no authoritie in making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders his woordes be these Likewyse Iosaphat kinge of Iuda distinguishing bothe the Saunders li. 2. cap. 1. fol. 57. powers sayde to the Leuites and Priestes Amarias the Prieste and your Bishop shall gouerne in those thinges whiche perteyne to God But Zabadias c. beholde something perteyned to the Bishop other somethinges to the office of a Kinge The same place also dothe Harding vse to the selfe same ende agaynst my Lorde of Sarisburie fol. 118. of the defense of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande from whome I beléeue you haue borrowed it Do I not say truely that you iumpe with the Papistes do you not both conspire agaynst the Ciuill Magistrate and are you not content to vse theyr very woordes and reasons greate ado there is agaynst me bycause I vse a place of Cyprian for the authoritie of an Archbishop ouer his prouince whiche the Papistes abuse for the authoritie of the Pope ouer all Christendome and here you vse the reason not onely of Papistes but of Traytours to the same ende with them that is agaynst that lawfull iurisdiction whiche wée haue giuen to our Prince and whiche hath hetherto bene maynteyned bothe by preaching and by burning But to lette this reste in the consideration of the Reader I will in fewe The place of the Replier agaynst himselfe woordes declare that this place maketh flatte agaynst you for who placed those Leuites and Priestes in Ierusalem for the iudgement and cause of the Lorde or who prescribed vnto them what they shoulde do or who gaue to them that authoritie did not Iehosaphat the texte is playne Iehosaphat had chiefe authoritie and gouernment bothe in thinges perteyning to God and in thinges perteyning to the common wealth but for better execution of them the one he did committee to be executed by Amaria the Prieste the other by Zabadiah a ruler of the house of Iuda euen as the Quéenes Maiestie beyng supreme gouernour in all causes bothe Ecclesiasticall and Temporall committeth the hearing and iudgyng of Ecclesiasticall matters to the Archbyshops and Bishops and of Temporall matters to the Lorde Chauncellour and other iudges neyther can you any more conclude that Iehosaphat had no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes bycause he made Amarias the Prieste iudge in the same than you can that he had nothing to do in Temporall affayres bycause he appoynted also Zabadiah to heare determine them For if this reason be good the Quéene of Englande hath nothing to do with Ecclesiasticall matters bycause shée hath made the Archbishops and Bishops iudges in them then is this as good hir Maiestie hath no authoritie in Ciuill matters bycause she hath committed the same to the Lorde Chauncellour and other Iudges Thus you see howe both the Papistes and you are deceyued in one and she selfe same reason I will but note by the way that the Leuites beyng Ecclesiasticall persons had Leuites being Ecclesiasticall persons had to d in ciuill matters to do in Ciuill matters as the woordes of the texte verse 11. moste manifestly declare as for your shifte of the number of them beyng more than coulde be applyed to the vse of the Churche it is but your owne and therefore to simple to answere so playne and direct a place of the Scripture That in the fifte to the Hebrewes is farre from the purpose for the Apostle in the same sentence declareth what those things perteyning to God be Euen to offer bothe giftes and sacrifices for him I thinke you do not so malitiously reporte of vs as the Papistes do that we giue to the Prince power to minisier the Sacramentes and to preache the woorde if you do not this place can by no meanes serue your turne The. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. This might M. Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble Emperour Constantine attributeth Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Const. epi. ad Euseb.
griefe and dismay of all those that professe Christian religion and labour to atteyne Christian reformation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 146. 147. 148. You complayne muche of vnbrotherly and vncharitable entreating Complaynte of persecution without cause of you of remouing you from your offices and places Surely in this poynt I must compare you to certayne Heretikes that were in Augustines time who moste bitterly by sundry meanes afflicting and molesting the true ministers of the Churche yet for all that cried out that they were extremely dealt with and cruelly persecuted by them or else vnto a shrewde and vngratious wyfe which beating hir husbande by hir clamorous complaynts maketh hir neighbours Persecution of the tongue beleeue that hir husbande beateth hir or to him that is mentioned in Erasmus collequies that dyd steale and runne away with the Priestes purse ▪ and yet cried alwayes as he ranne stay the theefe stay the theefe and thus crying escaped and yet he was the theefe him selfe You are as gentlye entreated as maye be no kinde of brotherly persuation omitted towards you most of you as yet keepe your liuings though some one or two be displaced you are offered all kinde of friendlynesse if you could be content to conforme your selues yea but to be quiet and holde your peace You on the contrary side moste vnchristianly and moste vnbrotherly bothe publikely and priuately rayle on those that shewe this humanitie towards you slaunder them by all meanes you can and moste vntruely reporte of them seeking by all meanes their discredite Agayne they as their Disobediēce allegiance to the Prince and duetie to lawes requireth yea and as some of them by othe are bounde doe execute that discipline whiche the Prince the lawe and theyr othe requireth you contrarie to all obedience duetie and othe openly violate and breake those lawes orders and statutes whiche you ought to obey and to the whiche A token of a good conscience some of you by othe is bounde If your doings proceede in deede from a good conscience then leaue that liuing and place which byndeth you to those things that be agaynst your conscience for why shoulde you striue with the disquietnesse bothe of your selues and others to keepe that liuing which by lawe you can not excepte you offend agaynst your conscience Or what honestie is there to sweare to statutes and lawes and when you haue so done contrary to your othe to breake them and yet still to remayne vnder them and enioy that place which requireth obedience and subiection to them For my parte I thinke it muche better by remouing you from your lyuings to offende you than by suffering you to enioy them to offende the Prince the lawe conscience and God And before God I speake it if I were persuaded as you seeme to be I woulde rather quietly forsake all the liuings I haue than be an occasion of strife and contention in the Church and a cause of stumbling to the weake and reioycing to the wicked I knowe God woulde prouide for me if I did it bona conscientia yea surely I woulde rather dye than be an author of schismes a disturber of the common peace and quietnesse of the Church and state There is no reformed Churche that I can heare Euery church hath a determinate order of ceremonies tell of but it hath a certayne prescript and determinate order aswel touching ceremonies and discipline as doctrine to the whiche all those are constrayned to giue their consent that will liue vnder the protection of it and why then maye not this Churche of Englande haue so in like maner Is it meete that euery man should haue his owne phansie or liue as him liste Truely I knowe not wherevnto these your dooings can tende but eyther to Anabaptisme or to meere confusion But nowe to the reasons that moue you not to subscribe to those Articles ministred vnto you by hir Maiesties highe Commissioners T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2. Sed etiam quodam in loco facetus esse voluisti Deus bone quam te illud non decet Heere M. Pleasant diuinitie Doctor was disposed to make him selfe and his Reader merie but it is with the bagpipe or countrey mirth not with the harpe or lute which the learned were wont to handle For he hath packed by togither the olde tale of the curst wyfe and of the thiefe that tooke away the Priests purse very familiar and homely geare It might peraduenture make M. Doctor hoppe about the house but the learned and the wyse can not daunce by this instrument It pleaseth M. Doctor to compare those which be put out of their liuings without iust cause to heretikes curst wyues and to theeues but all men do vnderstande how rightly What his troubles be within and in his conscience the Lorde God and he knoweth best but as for the outwarde persecution which he suffreth it is not suche as he neede thus to stoupe and to grone and to blowe vnderneath it as though he had some great burthen vpon his shoulders And if he cōplayne of the persecution of the tongue to let passe his immoderate heate of speeche whych he vseth with those that he hathe to doe withall the tongue whiche is more intemperate than his is in all his booke shall hardely be founde Io. Whitgifte And I thanke God I can be mery with the bagpype I am neyther ashamed of the Instrument nor of the countrey But what diuinitie call you this alacke poore spite at the bagpipe Surely you doe me a pleasure when you tell me of it You haue omitted nothing that by any meanes might serue you for a iest O great grauitie c. But let vs leaue puerilia pueris I knowe none of you put from your liuings without moste iuste cause if there be any iniuried that wayes God be thanked they maye finde iustice My quietnesse within my conscience I moste humbly thanke my God therefore dothe mitigate the heate of the slaunderous generation and maketh me more willing to deale agaynst that secte that can not be maynteyned without suche kinde of vncharitable and slaunderous dealing I remember what Cyprian sayth to Cornelius Epist. lib. 1. Ecclesiasticall Cyprian discipline is not therefore to be lefte of nor the seueritie that becommeth a Priest to be slackned bicause we are reuiled and euill spoken of c. And agayne The opprobrious speeches of the wicked ought not to moue vs so that we decline from the righte way and the sure rule seeing that the Apostle instructeth vs saying If I ▪ shoulde please men I were not the seruant of Christ. If the heate of my tongue be immoderate what shall be sayde of yours But this kinde of dealing is nothing méete for vs. Wherefore if you continue in this vayne you shall haue the best game for me T. C. Pag. 156. Sect. 2. And althoughe it be vnreasonable inoughe that he shoulde not giue men leaue to complayne of their troubles
with the fault of the print or by carping at the translation when the wordes being changed the sense remayneth or by alleadging that such a one or such another was of this or that iudgement as you for the most part hauing nothing but his bare name haue done All whiche thinges you haue committed in this booke ▪ but that you confute it by the authoritie of the worde of God by good and sound reasons wholy and not by peecemeale And if you bring the practise of the churches we desire that it may be out of authorities which are extant which are not counterfeyte and which were in the best and purest times And if you thinke that the credite of your Doctor ship or Deanry will beare out that which you cannot answer your selfe besides that * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is neuer shut ▪ remember M. Doctor that lighte is come into tht worlde and The reuenging eye men will not be deluded with nothing nor abused with visards neyther let it embolden you which peraduenture hathe made poli presume the more in ▪ this booke to write any thing vppon hope that no man dare answer it For neyther the Queenes Maiestie nor hir honorable counsell as we are perswaded will deale so sharply with those whome they know to be faithfull and lawfull subiects which pray that all the treasures of Gods wisedome may be poured vpon them neither haue we cause to thinke but that as the euill opinion which is in part conceiued of vs hath growen vppon false and vntrue informations whiche you and such other haue giuen in crying in their eares that we be Anabaptists conspired with Papists Puritanes Donatists bringers in of confusion and anarchy enimies to ciuill gouernment and I know not what euen so when hir Maiestie and their honours shall vnderstand how farre we are from those wicked opinions they will leaue that opinion of vs ▪ and rather esteeme of vs by that we haue preached taught and now write than that whiche other men report of vs being thinges which we neuer taught ▪ spake or so much as dreamed of Io. Whitgifte It is so farre from satisfying me in any point that it greatly confirmeth me in some thing where vnto before I did but incline Such is the weakenesse of your grounds Your request made vnto me is against all reason for how can you require that of The Replye requireth that of others which he him selfe woulde not performe me towarde you which you haue in no respect perfourmed towards me for firste you haue not set downe my booke that the Reader mighte perceiue how vprightly you deale with me secondly you haue passed ouer many thinges and left them vnanswered Thirdly you haue vnreasonably wrested my words and in most places you do nothing but wrangle you haue mangled my booke and so skipt from place to place that the Reader shall hardly perceine what you take or what you leaue to be short you haue vsed few scriptures and those vntollerably wrested How then can you require the contrary of me But I haue satisfied your request to the full I trust saue only I do not intend to learne of you how to answer what authoritie to vse but if the authorities and reasons that I bring shall be sound to be light they shall the more easily by you be remoued I depend not vppon the credit of my Doctorship or Deanry neither would I wish you too much to trust to the opinion of your owne learning and witte I say with Sainte Augustine Let scripture be compared with scripture reason with reason authoritie with authoritie cause with cause and let vs both according to the same be iudged I doubte not of the answering of my booke neyther do I feare it you knowe that Conference by writing hath bin often offered to the Replier I haue offered you diuerse tymes this kind of conference though not in thys publike manner I haue spoken nothing agaynste you before hir maiestie whyche your bookes and doings haue not proued to be true Hir Maiestie and their honours know what they haue to do the Lord blisse them with his holy spirit and in all their doings guide them Of the additions detractions and alterations made by the admonitors in both the partes of the Admonition T. C. Pag. 173. Sect. 1. Beside that often thne M. Doctor doth account the expositions and explanations corrections he ueth vs somewhat the lesse hope that he will correct his errours for that he purfueth the authours of the Admonition so harde correcting their very small and few slips whiche they haue made calling this singular destie and commendable hum tie amongst other reproches dalying and inconstancie when it is our profession euery day to learne better things For vnto what end should we liue if time if experiēce if reading iusing if conference should teach vs nothing And therefore when thinges are printed againe it is good and prayse worthy to polishe those thynges which are some what rud to mitigate these things which are too sharpe to make playne to giue light to those things which seeme darker and to correct that which is amisse I thinke M. Doctor should not be ignorante that wise men haue their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there second councells and those also wiser and better than their first as that sentence doth declare I will therefore say no more hereof but admonish M. Doctor that he receiue more louingly those whiche correcte themselues seing that the best defense to his booke must be not a correction here and there but a cleane blotting or striking out not an amending but a new making almost of his whole booke Other matter in his censures he hath almost none at all woorth the answering sauing that he hathe a place or two which toucheth the matters before entreated of Io. Whitgifte It behoueth such as will take vpon them to plucke downe that which is wel builded They whiche wil pul down the olde and place a newe platforme oughte to be v rie circumspecte and to make a new platforme to be well aduised what they do and assured of their cunning if this ought to be in humane matters and in externall affaires of the life of man how much more ought it to be in diuine matters and things perteyning to the kingdome of heauē I do not mislike that modestie and humilitie that is contente to be corrected and to acknowledge that whiche is ami e. But I can by no meanes allowe that pryde and arrogancie that presuming to condemne the whole state of a Churche and to prescribe vnto the same a newe platforme is by and by after through vnskilfulnesse and lack of discretion at the first constreyned to misselyke that newe platforme also and to p ce it and patch it like a beggers cloke with putting too and taking fro with altering and chaunging sometyme this and sometyme that like vnto foolishe and vnskilful buylders It behoueth suche as will take vpon them
zeale is euen that that Zuinglius doth charge the Anabaptists with when he sayth Ira est non spiritus quo se venditant The ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets c. In this portion entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherly with their brethren ther is no great matter conteined worthie of answering only the author doth excuse himselfe for taking vpon him that exhortation moueth the Bishops to deale brotherly with the authors of the Admonition First bicause they be their rethren secondly bicause they ought first to haue discouered vnto the world by the word of God howe truely or falsely they haue written Thyrdely bycause they do but disclose the disorders of our Churche of England and humbly desyre a reformation of the same according to the rule of Gods worde c. Fourthly that Papists lye abroade in their dioces vntouched c. Fiftly that many lewde light bookes and balades flye abroade printed not onely withoute reprehension but Cum priuilegio Likewise in y e same booke the author seemeth to iustifie the Admonitiō to condemne the lordship and authoritie of Bishops ascribing thervnto the stay hinderance of their pretenced reformation charging them after a sorte with mangling the Scriptures of God and with snaring the godly with such lawes as were purposely made for the wicked These be the principall contentes of that booke The first reason that is That they be their brethren might as wel be alleaged Bretheren may be punished for the impunitie of Anabaptists Arrians and such like who pretend the sinceritie of gods word and would be counted brethren yea it might as well be alleaged for many other malefactours who be also brethren and yet must not therfore escape vnpunished for their offences Shall not the Prince and the magistrate execute lawes vpon suche as breake them bicause they be their brethren in Chryst Beware of such doctrine and let not affection in priuate mens causes carie you headlong into publike errors But I thinke you are in this pointe deceiued for howsoeuer we accompte them our brethren yet they accompt not vs their brethren neyther will they acknowledge vs so to be as some of them both in open speache and manifest signes haue declared And therfore when the Bishops deale with them they deale with suche as disdayn to be called their brethren T. C. Page 177. Sect. 3. After M. Doctor confuteth his owne shadow for the exhortatiō doth not require that the name of a brother should deliuer the authors of the Admonition from punishment if they deserued it but desi eth that it might worke some moderation of the rigoure of it and compassion to minister to their necessities in prison He sayeth that the authors of the Admonition take not them for theyr brethren yes verily although vnbrotherly handled and for fathers too and so both loue them and reuerence them vntill which we hope will not be they shall manyfestly for the vpholdi g of their owne kingdome and profite refuse to haue Christe to reigne ouer vs in whome this fatherhoode and brotherhoode doth consist Io. Whitgifte Let the readers iudge whether it be one of their reasons or no let them also consider that which I haue before alledged out of the second Admonition pag. 35. then tell me whether they take vs for brethren or no. Can you so well please your selues in your own platforme y t except we admit it we refuse Christ to reigne ouer vs I trust he hath reigned ouer vs hitherto and shall doo to the end though your platforme be sunke to the bottome of the sea An ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets To their second reason I answer that I thinke they haue bin talked with and heard what they haue to say for them selues but their hautie mindes and good opinion conceyued of themselues will not suffer them to see their errours In this reason you alledge nothyng for them but that which may also be alledged for the Papists or any other sect of heretikes But it is an old saying Turpe est doctori c. How hapneth it that they themselues haue first defamed not the Bishops only but also this whole Church of England with publike libells before they haue vsed brotherly and priuate conference This is to espie a moate in an other mannes eye c. How true the thirde reason is may appeare in my answere to their Admonition but how true soeuer it were yet their disordered disclosyng by vnlawful meanes that is by libelling deserueth as much punishment as hitherto they haue had for the truth nedeth no such vngodlie meanes of disclosyng If Papists goe abroade vnpunished when by lawe they maye be touched surely it is a greate faulte and can not bee excused and I praye God it maye bee better looked to But thys is no good and sufficient reason for the impunitie of other Bicause some Papistes be not punished shal therfore no disordered persons be punished Or bicause some in authoritie winke at some Papists shall therfore no lawes be executed towardes any offenders Surely touchyng malice agaynst the forme and state of this oure Churche I see no greate difference betwixt them and the Papists and I think verily they both conspire together The same answere I make to youre first reason shall no booke be suppressed bicause some be not It is a faulte I confesse to suffer lewde Ballades and Bookes touchyng Ballets manners But it were a greater faulte to suffer bookes and Libells disturbing the peace of the Churche and defacing true religion Concerning the titles and offices of Bishops I haue spoken sufficiently before In manglyng and wrestyng of the Scriptures none offende so muche as doe the authors of the Admonition who in that point are comparable to the Papistes as may be seene by the learned and diligent Reader If they whom they terme godly do willingly offende against such lawes as were made for the wicked they are to be punished according to the lawes neyther are they to be spared bicause they pretende Godlinesse bre keth no lawe godlynesse for there is no godlinesse in breaking of lawes The thirde scroule called An Exhortation to the Bishoppes and to theyr Cleargie to answere a little booke c. is satisfyed I trus e for I haue as it is there required answered the short and peeuishe Pamphlet as they tearme it I haue disclosed their double and corrupt dealing theyr wringing of the Scriptures to serue their turne and haue declared the true sense meaning of thē I haue not bumbast d it with rethorike but in plain simple maner vttered my iudgement according to uncient fathers contemned o ned men the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures notwithstanding I haue in sundrie pointes declared the vse of the Church of Christ in tymes past and do vse the testimonie of auncient Councels and learned fathers whiche these vnlearned men vnlearnedly contemne a thing not heard of in any age or Churche nor allowed of
Archbishop dyd with their factiousnesse trouble the Church Whiche words I added to declare how vntruely the Papistes doe abuse that place of Cyprian to proue the Popes authoritie ouer all the Churches when he onely speaketh of the authoritie of an Archbishop or Bishop in his owne prouince or dioces True it is that Cyprian doth not speake of the authoritie of the Byshop of Rome ouer all Churches but of the authoritie that Cornelius then Bishop of Rome or Cyprian himselfe had in his owne prouince neither wil any denie this but Papists Now to peruert this my plaine meaning and to father on me whether I will or no this argumente he speaketh not of the Bishop of Rome and therfore of an Archbishop argueth a mynd disposed to con and a stomacke desirous rather to deface the person than to giue care to the matter T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 9. And in the. 71. pag. * Other vntruthe ▪ There must be superiours Ergo one minister must be superiour vnto an other There must be degrees therefore there must be one Archbishop ouer a prouince Io. Whitgifte There are no such reasons those that be in that place alleaged are onely out of Hierome and Chrisostome and of greater force than wil be truely answered T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 10. And in the. 73. there was one ouer euery congregation therefore there was one ouer all the ministers Another vntruth in the prouince These and a number like vnto these M. Doctor hath scattered throughout his booke which as Nero sayd of his maister Senecas workes cleaue together like sand and thus let it be seene whose argumentes are most iustly concluded those of the Admonition or these of M. Doctors Io. Whitgifte It is a shame to lye of the deuill Where finde you in all that page any such argument or similitude of it but surely you haue done me a great pleasure who searching my booke so diligently for arguments to quit the Admonition haue not founde one but most vainely and vntruely fained those to be which be not Truly I do not think my selfe in euery circumstance to be so circumspecte but that I may minister sometime matter to a quarreller howebeit as yet you haue not founde any thing for your purpose And I shall most hartily desire the reader to iudge of the rest of your doyngs euen according to these beginnings An Exhortation to such as be in authoritie and haue the gouernment of the Church committed vnto them whether they be Ciuill or Ecclesiasticall Magistrates Io. Whitgifte COnsidering the strangenesse of the time the varietie of mens mindes and the maruellous inclinations in the common sort of persons especially where the Gospel is most preached to imbrace newe inuented doctrines and opiniōs though they tende to the disturbing of the quiet state of the Church the discrediting and defacing of such as be in authoritie and the mainteining of licenciousnesse and lewde libertie I thought it good to set before your eyes the practises of the Anabaptistes their conditions and qualities the kinde and manner of their beginnings and proceedings before the broching of their manifolde and horrible heresies to the intent that you vnderstanding the same may the rather in time take heede to such as proceede in like maner least they being suffred too long brust out to worke the same effect I accuse none onely I suspect the authors of this Admonition and their fautours what cause I haue so to do I refer to your selues to iudge after that I haue set forth vnto you the Anabaptisticall practises euen as I haue learned in the writings of suche famous and learned men as had themselues experience of them when they first began in Germanie and did both personally reason with them and afterwardes very learnedly write against them neither will I in this point write one word which I haue not my author to shew for An answere to the Exhortation to the ciuill Magistrates T. C. pag. 2. Sect. 1. IT is more than I thought could haue happened vnto you once to admitte into your minde this opinion of Anabaptisme of your brethren which haue alwayes had it in as great detestation as your selfe preached against it as much as your selfe hated of the folowers and fauourers of it as much as your selfe And it is yet more strange that you haue not doubted to giue out such slaunderous reportes of them but dare to present such accusations to the holy and sacred seate of iustice and therby so much as in you lyeth to corrupt it to call for the sword vpon the innocent which Bigge wordes is giuen for their maintenance and safetie that as it is a boldnesse vntollerable so coulde I hardly haue thought that it could haue fallen into any that had caried but the countenance and name of a professor of the Gospell much lesse of a Doctor of diuinitie Before you will ioyne with vs in this cause you will place vs whether we will or no in the campe of the Anabaptistes to the ende you might therby both withdraw al frō aiding vs which are godly minded as for that you fearing as it seemeth the insufficiencie of your pen might haue the sworde to supply your want other wayes And if we be founde in their campe or be such disturbers of the quiet estate of the Church efacers of such as be in authoritie mainteyners of licenciousnes lewde libertie as you do seeme to charge vs with we refuse not to go vnder those punishments that some of that wicked sect receiued for iust recompence of their demerites You say you will not accuse any (a) A charitable iudgement and yet before he reproued the l ke I know it is for want of no good will that you do not accuse them of whose condemnation extreme punishment we might be sure if your hand were as strong as your harte But you suspect the authors of the Admonition and their fautors * Charitie is not suspitious Let vs therefore see whether there be iuste 1. Cor. 13. 5. matter to beare out and to vphold this suspition You will beare men in hand that if we be not alreadie full Anabaptists yet we are in the way thither the fotesteps wherby you trace vs must be considered Io. Whitgifte There is no cause why you should so maruaile at the matter all things well considered neither do I thinke that the Anabaptistes do so greatly detest and hate them as you woulde make vs beleue I do not accuse them of the doctrine of Anabaptisme as you your selfe in the ende of this section do acknowledge but I declare that I greatly suspect them bicause they come so neare vnto the qualities and practises of the Anabaptistes and vse the same beginnings whether this my suspition be true or no I referre it to the iudgement of others If the reportes be slaunderous let them take their lawfull remedie against me but if they be most manifest then it is conuenient that the Magistrates haue