haue taught the trueth let not Hume nor Hill iudge but the learned of the â—niversiâ—ies For as Paule saith 1. Cor. 14. 32. The spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophetes That is the labors of the learned men are to be iudged of the learned The God of patience and consolation giue vs grace that we may be like minded one towards another according to Christ Iesus that we may with one minde one mouth glorifie God the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ Rom. 14. 5. 6. To whome bee all honour glorie world without end Amen An answere to the conclusion IF you had been the man that you protested in the pulpite and I promised my selfe when I wrote there was good hope that my answere might haue pleased you as wel as mee But now I see it impossible to please you except I could sing your song And truelie M. D. I could sing your song as soone as anie mans if it did tune as wel with the concent of scriptures as other mens doe But now you must pardon me I am too old to learn your discords The things in my answere which I hoped might haue wrought it favour with you was truth and reason But nowe I see the one is a stranger with you and the other a guest at will If they had beene of that account in your studie and so familiar with you as I hoped my poore answere had not found such hard handling nor vnreasonable railing there as it did You sent it home so ragged rent and torne that it coste mee a moneths work in the cold winter to mend his coat Now I haue quilted it better sent it to you once againe to challenge your promise and to tell you that your plaine reasons heere set downe why you could not recant are nullified and made of none effect like an obligation that is paied at the day appointed Wherefore seeing your argument drawne from the Act. 2. is answered sect 4. and sect 7. And seeing your place out of Syrach is 7. waies defaced sect 11. And seeing I haue proued my consent with the Scriptures in euerie place where I met with that accusation And seeing our sense of the 16. Psalm agreeth with Peter as wel as yours sect 7. And seeing in my answere to Psal 63. I dissent neither from David nor Calvine sect 8. And seeing in my answere to the place of Ezechiel I dissent neither from him nor Esay sect 9. And seeing I haue proued by the worde spirit that men living in the fleshe are not signified sect 12. And seeing now I haue set down your words according to your owne request and seeing your sermon at Chippenhame and this anwsere also hath confirmed mee and seeing mine own answere doth noâ— offer me nor anie of my freends sufficient cause to recant I hope now you are satisfied and that you will satisfie me and the populous congregation to whome you made your solemne promise of recantation in the pulpite at Chippenhame It was not a place to dissemble in and therefore let vs see that you meant as you spake The Lord giue you a hart pliable to his truth ANd heere to end as if M. D. had set the bent of his wit to shewe the vanitie of his worke he maketh the vainest bragge that euer grewe in a vaine heade There was good Reader if thou knowe it not one Ovid of all vaine poets the vainest Amongest manie filthie and vaine workes he wrote a book entituled Metamorphosis In it he sets the edge of all his wits which he had as sharp as euer had anie Poet to the painting of lies in all coloures wherein he shot so neare the marke that in comparison of it the lying legend commes not neere the whetstone by as manie myles as there be wordes in them both The conclusion of this worthie worke M. D. hath pasted to his hel as most agreable to that argument Iamque opus exegi quod nec Iouis ira nec ignis Nec potâ—rit ferrum nec edax abolere vetustas In which Ovid looking back into the worke of his owne wit grew into such loue with the finenesse of his owne conceits that he doubted not to deâ—ie his owne imagined God Iuppiter Now that thou mightest see gentle reader that M. Doctor did thinke of his owne worke as well as Ovid coulde of his hee brusteth out in the same brag In which if he meane Ovids Idole by this Iuppiter it is heathnishe if the true God it is Hellishe That they that vnderstand not the latine may vnderstand it I haue thought not amisse to englishe it as neere the words as I can keeping the english meeter I haue at length made vp this work Which Iuppiter in raging fume With me with fire with edged sworde And cankering age cannot consume To it I may well answere out of another Poet. Quid dignum tanto fert hic promissor hiatis Parturiunt montes nascetur ridiculus mus That is What hath this vaunting bragger done Worth gaping mouth and lips so wide The groning Hill is brought a bed And out a sillie mous doth slide Huic latino carmine sic respondero Nondum est exactum ludit tua gloria ventos Ad sat a licta redi I am renovatur opus In cineres fumosque tui rediere labores Quod louis ignis agit quod Iovis irae facit Aliud Dicere sibellum mireris tartara coelo Foedera Dis stygius cum Ioue nulla colit Aliud Christum post stygios in tristi morte dolores Contendit stygias Hillus adisse domos Complexus vano nugas tricasque libello Provocat insanus tela manumque Iovis Errat fi tutum Iovis ira acheronta putarit Non coquit aeternis iguibus ille stygem FINIS CERTAINE PLACES QVOted out of Master Doctors owne Authours vpon the three principal places where-upon he buildeth this his opinion wherein thou maist see gentle Reader how small cause hee hath to bragge of so many old and new writers I leaning altogether on the word of trueth haue not qâ—â—ted them in the treatise it selfe counting them vnsufficient witnesses in such a cause wherein they haue neither reveilâ—d nor experimented knowledg yet because I would not defraud theâ— of their judgments I haue thought good to set them downe heere The first place is thou vvouldest not leaue my soule in 〈◊〉 nor suffer thy holy one to see corruption vvhere M. Dâ—ctâ—r takes 〈◊〉 to be hell vve the generall condition of them vvhich are departed this life MOLERVS caeterum movent hic questionemâ—â— descensu Christi ad inferos quaÌ„ prudens omitto cum ex hoc lâ—co id satis certo evinci non possit Felinu non deseres ammam meâ—Ì„sepuâ—â—hro id est non destitues me vt anima mea morti concedat Per sheâ—l enim quod sepulchrum significat vt in Psal 6. vers 6. d. xâ— statum conâ—â—tionem mortuorum hoc est inferos scriptâ—ra transnominare
A REIOYNDER TO DOCTOR HIL CONCERNING THE DESCENSE OF CHRIST INTO HELL WHEREIN THE ANSWERE TO HIS SERmon is justlie defended and the roust of his reply scraped from those arguments as cleanlie as if they had neuer bene touched with that canker By Alexander Hume Maister of Artes. ¶ HEERE BESIDES THE REIOYNDER thou hast his Paralogismes that is his fallacies and deceits in reason pointed out and numbered in the margin amounting to the nomber of 600. and aboue and yet not half reckoned TO THE RIGHT HONORABLE ROBERT ERLE OF ESSEX AND EWE VICOVNT Hereford and Bourchier Lord Ferreis of Chartlie Lord Bourchier and Lovane Maister of her Majesties horses and Knight of the most noble order of the Garter LONG LIFE WITH INCREASE OF Honour and after this lyfe lyfe euerlasting BEing drawne Right honorable into this controversie by the accidents expressed in the Epistle to the Reader I levelled all my labours to rake vp the coales and stiflle the flames of contention Being priuate I endevoured to keepe my selfe within the boundes of my condition I wrote in secrete acquainting fewe with my counsell I tempered my stile with the modestest words that I could devise I submitted my self to be led by better reasons I abstained from offences occasions of choller I wrote in latine that it might not come into the handes of the multitude hoping that if anie blowes fell harder then I meant them they might be the better taken the fewer saw them But all this seed bred no corne for M. Doct. hunting after praeferment if I mistake not his plot and setting the foundation of his praise on this conquest hath now published in print that I wrote in a corner cried at the crosse that I sent vnder seale If the worste were my disgrace it might be borne with or if all readers had learning this reply might be contemned But seeing this cause is Christs and slips amongest the simple may goe for six pence I will not betray him that hath done so much for mee nor see them deceaued whome he hath bought so dearlie The question is of an article of our faith and pertaineth to all that care what they beleeue The doubt is not whether the article be true but in what sense it is true For seing these articles are not scripture but grounded on the Scripture the question is in what sense Christ is said according to the Scriptures to descend into Hell And now seeing hee is no more a Christian that is ignorant of his faith then he a Carpenter that caÌ„not handle his axe this must needs be a question as necessarie as it is needfull for a Christian to vnderstand what he beleeueth For that which manie saie it sufficeth to knowe that Christ descended into Hell though they knowe not in what sort he was there is as if a farmer shoulde content himself that hee hath a lease of his faâ—me and neuer enquire how long it lasteth nor on what condition hee holdeth By the same reason it is sufficieÌ„t to know that Christ was born and that he suffered and needlesse to seeke how he was borne and what hee suffered Wherefore I haue resolued to stand at my defense and to beare the brunt of these blowes For my weapons are sound Syllogismes my armour Scripture and truth my shield I doubt not of the proofe and feare not the muscate I was brief before as the mediocritie of a private letter requyred My breuitie bred obscuritie and gaue more probabilitie to his inversions and euasions to his insinuations and collections to his making and marring my argumentes in wrong mouldes But now I haue made them my self shaped them on such blockes as will not I hope be easilie wrung out of fashion I haue turned his ordinance some against himself and all from vs so farre as I hope he will dispair himself to hit this marke with that shot Yet because manie mindes are swayed with affection of the man or with conceit of the matter and my name came neuer neere so manie eares as this booke is like to come in mouths I haue resolued to commend it to your honor Hoping that if your name win minds to read the waight of my reasons shall turne the scales and winne heartes to beleeue I haue manie reasons of my choise Your Zeale of Gods house Your loue of Gods glorie Your knowledge in Gods worde And your aestimation in Gods Church amongest such as loue his name sincearly and her Maiestie for his sake vnfainedlie Adde that M. D. Reynoldes the load starre of Oxenford whome your honour hath maintained there to confute the Fryar Bellarmine hauing laid open all the plaites and ript the seames of this controuersie I presume the more to vse your name in this cause which hath beene maintained vnder your countenance If there were any hope that that worke would come out shortlie I would burie my papers in the duste But seeing that time is like to be long and manie in the meane time are deceaved with these bold bragges I haue thought expedient to amaze the adversaries of this doctrine with the light of that sunne when it shall please God to giue it to his Church to set out my little candle wherein I hope there is light inough to disperse the mistes and pearce the cloudes of these Sophismes Thus beseeching God the authour of all honour to augment your honour to your comfort his glorie I commit you to him whose cause I commend to you Your Honours humble Oratour ALEXANDER HVME TO THE READER I Am forced gentle Reader though I hate contention to contend with a contentious man or else having the better end of the staffe to forsake a good cause It is not possible that the Lordes fielde should want tares his net bad fishe or his Church offences but wo to them by whome they rise This wo in controversies pertaines to the one side It is hard and almost impossible that both bee guiltie Wherefore as I am cleare before the Lord so to purge my selfe before thee I will set down how this dissension first beganne The Bishop of Salisburie that last was before his remooving to Yorke tooke order that certaine preachers should keepe lecture on the market daies in the cheefe market townes of his Diocese There is a great market euerie Satterday at a towne called Chippenhame in North Wilshire Within 4. myles of which dwelleth one M. Wisedome a man for integritie of lyfe and exceeding paines in his calling loued of all the godlie hated of the wicked and admired of both This man was one of the prechers appointed to that place and preached there once in a fourtnight or a month I know not which Wherfore on Satterday the 14. day of Februarie or thereabout Anno 1589. expounding in that place the articles of the beleef he deliuered this opinion which I defend concerning the descense of Christ into hel WheÌ„ he had done one Chalfont Vicar of that towne stood vp and protested to the
He gaue out that al Oxford was on his side But when it came to proof hee was faine to promise to his friends and they to others that he would conferre with learned men that hee woulde yeeld to anie truth that could be proued out of the word that he would not deall in that question but as he should be led by such conference or els he had gone as graceles out of Oxford as he came thither Notwithstanding when he was sure of his grace to maintain his credit amongst his friends in the cuntrie he took that question to maintaine in Oxfoord on the Viper day of the Act. howe manfully hee defended it I report me to them that heard him A filius terrae at the lower end of the schoole a thing neuer seene before in that place at that time got a placet of the Doctor of the chyre to brush his skarlet gowne who trimmed it so neatly that if his cheeks wold haue taken the staines of shame he had worne as much skarlet in his face as he did on his back In this story thou maiest see good Reader that my adversary did thrust his hooke in an other mans haruest at Chippinhame that he took not my reply so wel as he promised in the pulpit That he made that publick which I wrote in private That he went farther abroad hunted for contention in Oxfoord That hee plaied at the same bale before in Sarum That he bare the simple in hand that all the learned of the Vniversitie were of his mind That hee fed an vntrue rumour that I had recanted That he printed my privat letter without my consent or knowledg And that to trouble the simple with it he published that in english which I wrote in latine For my part I hope I did nothing but that which the dutie of a Christian required hearing the trueth impugned I did defend it fearing that he had bene deceiued on simplicitie I laboured to reforme him I wrote in faire tearmes to avoide offences I wrote in a strange tongue to keepe it secret And I hunted not for this contention but was drawen into it with faire promises of great thanks wherfore I hope if thou haue but one dramme of indifferencie that thou wiltest wipe this bleamish from my face If I fall nowe into rougher tearmes impute the fault to him that kept not himselfe within the same bounds as I beganne Moreover it is impossible to answere this booke wherein are so many errours in al kinds of learning without tearms of offence The humour also of this adversary is such and his estimation amongest the simple that if I spare him I shall feede it and hinder the trueth Add that it is impossible for me to passe over such vnmanerly disgraces of lies impudeÌ„t lies shameles lies in matters politicall damnable lies in maters theological disagreing with Mathew Mark Luke Iohn Paul Peter Christ himself al the scriptures and never turne the bale comming so faire to the other end of the tennise In some places hee giueth my words a meaning that I neuer meant In some places he giues my arguments a shape that I neuer made In some places hee bends his proofes to things not denied In many places hee slipps the point in controversie and passes by arguments as if he neuer sawe them And in no place answeres one argument like a scholler much lesse a Doctor If I rippe vp these things in their places freely I hope good Reader that thou wiltest rather lay the fault on him that made them such than me that cal them as they are Thus beseeching thee to weigh the cause throughly and to giue every colour his own name I leaue thee to the Lord. Thine and all theirs that loue the Lord Iesus Alexander Hume THE COPPY OF MASTER DOCTORS LETTER SENT to me with his booke GRace and peace There was brought to me in August last an answere made to my sermon preached at Chippenhame the 28. of February by your selfe which for that I was then riding to London I laid vp in my studie till my returne At which time examining it I found that you had indeauored to answere some part of my sermon and some things you left vnanswered Hereupon I had thought to make no replie But â—he I vnderstoode that speeches were blazed abroad that neither I could nor durst answere it I entered into a resolution either to defend my self or els to recant to stay the spâ—eches of the multitude And therefore to satisfie your request haue made a replie wherein I haue proued my former reasons to be firme vâ—controleable and your answer to be weak vnsufficient for that you disagree with Dauid Esay Ezechiel Mathew Peter Paul yea Christ himself as it shal appeare in the conference It is an easie matter to set your selfe against M. Hil. But it is not so easie 〈◊〉 mater to set your self against the Prophets and Apostles and Christ himselfe Hee vvill say to you as he said to Paul 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Wherefore I pray you if you vvill proceed in this conference to lay downe the vvhole as I do and consider vvhat vvheâ— and vvhere you vvrite You write of an article of our faith vvhich must be confirmed by Gods word If therefore it shal appeare that you haue gainsaid the Apostles vvordes and meanings vvho vvill beleeue you for an orthodoxall teacher you write in the most perrillous times When therefore the Papists shall see your deceiptfull handling of Gods word they vvill reioice at it Lastly you vvrite against an opinion imbraced in the Church of England alwaies and confirmed by our learned synod and convocation in the Parliament Therefore you must assure your selfe that you cannot cary this cause away without weightie irrefragable reasons I receiued also the last of November an answere in Latine I vvill at successiue houres frame by Gods grace an answer to that In the meane season you may peruse this and see by this replie vvhat good successe you may promise your selfe and your friends in the other Thus desiring God to direct this conference and al other our labours to his glorie I end West burie at my house the last of December 1590. Yours in the Lord Adam Hill TO THE RIGHT WORSHIP-FVL ADAM HIL DOCTOR OF DIVINITIE Vicar of Westburie person of Goosage Prebend and subchanter of the Cathedrall Church of our Ladie in the Citie of nevve Sarum IN May before the Moneth of August you speake of going home to visite my naturall friends I left my reply to your sermon to be delivered you But it was kept backe vppon the considerations which I haue saide in my Epistle to the Reader What other Coppy you receiued in August I cannot tel But wel I am assured I sent you none Howsoeuer you came by that coppy plaine dealing wold haue answered that which I sent you my selfe you tell me that going vp to London you receued an answere to your Sermon pervsing it
from Cambridge their Reader countenanced with the authoritie of their convocation to confute that opinion which the english name of hel did make more popular and probable to the ignorant by the countenance of that famous and worthie Vniversitie Thus men may see how truely you challenge the Church of England to haue allowed your opinion alwaies your alwaies commeth short of all that time which you desired most to take your part for men of your livery if you may get autoritie on your side count your self otherwaies sufficiently armed As for me If I handle the scriptures deceitfully let not onely the Papists laugh at me but let al Christians spit at me if I reforme it not when I am convicted Howe strong my reasons are to cary this cause cleare through the midst of the aduersaries of it I hope the sequell will proue and I referre it to the advised judgment of the indifferent Reader I cannot tell how to frame irrefragable reasons to you There was a Prophecie as Curtius recordeth that hee who could vndoe the knottes of Gordius his chariot should be Emperour of Asia Alexander intending that conquest came to the temple where those knottes were kept to see if hee could open them But they beeing insoluble by mans reason hee tore all assunder with his sword So you serue my arguments be they never so irrefragable when you cannot open them with reason you teare them all assunder with violence As for my latine answere which I indeed did send you and you in trueth should haue answered me and not this wandring vagabound you haue had it these three yeares and more wherein were successiue houres ynough to answere two sheets of Paper if you haue not bin more busie about greater matters than you would haue the world to knowe In the meane time I haue pervsed this and put my friends in hope of good successe in the other when your long leasure will serue you to answere it Thus beseeching God to giue vs all one heart and one minde I end Yours in the Lord Alexander Hume THE STATE OF THIS QVESTION brieflie set down for the capacitie of such as are not able to carie the drift of all this discourse before them THe hebrevve vvord SHEOL vvhich the Greekes call hades the latines infernus and vvee hell hath three significations in the scriptures First and properlie it signifieth the graue or common condition of all the dead expressed in the greek hades by the priuation of light or lyfe Secondlie the place of tormentes appointed for the punishment of the vvicked for this the hebrevve vvord is least and our inglish vvorde most vsuall or rather as it is commonlie taken hardlie signifieth any thing els Thirdlie the torments of hel vvhich by a Metonymicall hyperbole for amplifications sake is manie times attributed to the sorrovves of this life These things are knovvn to al the learned And this D. confesseth them sect 4. See also sect 8. sect 9. and sect 14. Novve vvhere our beleefe hath that Christ descended into hell the question is vvhich of these three significations doth best fit that article of our faith We say that seing euery article of our faith must haue an vndouted sense confirmed by the Scriptures it must needs signifie the hellish torments that he suffered for our redemption or the darknesse of death vvhich svvallovved him the three daies that he vvas in the graue That these thingt are true and may be the true sense of that article our aduersaries cannot denie Yet not contented heerevvith they vvil sinke deeper and send Christs soule to the damned pit of hell neither to suffer himself nor to helpe 〈◊〉 that suffered there Novve because this is a thing that no man can avouch vpon his ovvne knovvledge but God himself We refuse to take their vvords vvithout his vvarrant Wherefore to mend this crooke they lay three teâ—â—s of Scripture in the presse The first is out of the 16. Psalme the second is out of the 3. chap. of the 1. Pet. the last vveakest out of the 4. to the Ephes But these proofes being doubtfull that is implying other plainer senses We denie them to be sufficient to make this doubtfull assertion an vndoubted article of our faith Our reason is no doubtfull proofes can make a doubtfull assertion an vndoubted article of our faith But these proofes be doubtfull Ergo these proofes cannot make this doubtfull assertion an vndoubted article of our faith That these profes be doubtfull the vvords drifts and circumstances offering other senses both plainer and better fitting the places and agreeable to the rest of the Scriptures vvill driue anie reasonable head to confesse Neither doeth diverse learned Papists denie it But this aduersarie more impudent then they blusheth not like a vvyer dravver to pull these Scriptures through narrovve holes to make them smal inough to tie our faith to his fantasie Moreouer vvith like violence hee is forced to break dovvn tvvo other vvalls that stands in his vvay The one is in the 23 of Luke ver 46. Father into thy hands I commend my spirit and the other in the 43. ver of the same cap. spoken to the theef This day shalt thou be with mee in Paradice By vvhich tvvo places it is cleare that Christs soule vvas then in heauen and not in Hell Vpon the true sense of these places riseth this disputation to vvhich I referre the discreet and indifferent Reader beseeching them to read vvith a single eie and iudge vvith an vpright hart Onelie I vvill lance an impostume of absurdities vvhich breeding in the bovvels of this opinion like the vvorme that breeds in the nut hath putrified all the probabilitie of it and made all men of indifferent iudgement in this age to caste it vnder the boord amongest the shreddes First that Christ went down to Hell to triumph contrarie to the nature of Hell which yeeldeth nothing but horrour and torments And contrarie to the nature of a triumph which was vsuallie solemnized amongst them to whom the joy of the victorie did appertaine Secondlie that Christs soule did preach in Hell contrarie to the nature of a soule that cannot preache and the condition of those hearers who could reap no profite of his sermon having their jugement alreadie Thirdlie that he did preach neither to convert the hearers nor to condempne them for the contempt of his word but to aggrauate their sorrowes Contrarie to the office of Christ which was to offer mercie to all his hearers Fourthlie that Christs soul did preach in Hel reallie not vocallie that is did preach in Hel and say nothing contrary to the nature of the word preach which neuer man did without voice words Fiftlie that Christ meaning to go to Hell as they say did notwithstanding commend his soule into the hands of God Contrarie to the true and common vse of these words vsed by Stephan Act. 7. and all other godlie men that craue to be iâ— heauen Sixtlie that his
verie likelie Secondlie that you ment not to defend M. Chalfonts opinion will hardlie be beleeued except you can perswade the audieÌ„ce that you ment one thing and did an other Thirdlie that you gaue vp your sermon to M. Wisedome in wriring M. Wisedome can tel that it is not true Hee had nothing of you but a few scribled disordered notes The last is cunninger that I answered not the whole but some part of your sermon That which escaped without answere was so small a part that the rest might well haue bene called the whole if you had not bene disposed to abuse the simplicitie of your reader That the matter then in controversie was staied before in Sarum by the Bishop was true but in such sort that if you had not bene more busie then your commission it might haue stand more with your credite to haue let Chippenham alone For you were there injoined by the Bish two Iustices of the peace to confesse that M. Connam his opinion who was then your adversary was pia vera senteÌ„tia Whether you came to make peace amongst your brethren and not to warre against M. Wisedome I referre it to the audience peace-makers vse not to take parts Your peace did so little please M. Wisdome for as much as you honor him that beeing denied the pulpit at Chippenham by Chalfont contrarie to the order he was driuen to take Cosham church not far distant to defend the truth against you and your mate which thing he performed with great meekenesse and humilitie after his maner to the comforte of all that heard him the aedifying of them that were desirous to know the trueth These things if I were disposed to go to Tennis with you would sound more lie like then all the lies you haue flung at me But you are a Doctor and that were vn-manerlie Yet saving your worship you keepe not so good a watche through this worke as it becums such a lie-catcher Wherefore to conclude where you say that I accuse you of wit eloquence onelie denie the action and I will let fall my suâ—e But as for your promise I will neuer let goe my holde because I hope you will proue a man of your word HVME his 2. Sect. Nowe to come to the matter I see no cause why you should thinke better of Augnstine and Ierome then of Caluin and Beza for they were all but men and they which now are olde were sometimes new They had no better warrant of Gods spirit then these and errors in those dayes were so thicke sowen that there grewe darnell in the best fieldes euen of them whome now we most admire I speake not this to descredit the Fathers but to proue that they were no Gods They were no dout his good instruments to maintaine his truth against his enemies but they wer but meÌ„ you can not denie but the best of them had his steynes This no doubt was the forepurposed worke of gods infinite wisdom that seeing these infirmities our fond age might not set their writings in the place of his eternall word wherof one iote shal not passe though heauen and earth perish HILL his reply TWo argumentes you make against Augustine and Ierome The one is they had errors and therfore their interpretation not to be admitted The other is the time wherein they liued was corrupt and for that cause they are not to be alledged in a controuersy of Diuinitie The same argument I make against all new writers All new writers haue errors and they liue in a most corrupt time wherein as Christ saith shall bee many fals prophets many fals Christs to deceiue the very elect if it were posible Math. 24. 24. Therfore because men are vaine the time corrupt wee must beleue no man You argue ab accidente ad subiectuÌ„ For Augustine Ierome to erre it is an accident but the substance of all Fathers is to beget men in the word of truth 1. Cor. 4. 15. And for this cause Augustine himselfe willeth vs not to beleeue him vnlesse hee bring the word of God Truly sayth Augustine I do desire not onlie a godlie reader but a free corrector in all my writings especially in those things where there is great doubt but as I will not haue him to be giuen vnto mee so I will not haue him to be giuen to himself let him not loue mee more then the Catholike faith As I say to him beleue not my sayings as Canonical scriptures but beleue stedfastly wheÌ„ thou hast found that which thou beleuedst not but beleue not firmly that which thou hast not seene out of Gods worde So I say to him do not correct my writings by thine owne opinion or of contention but by the word of God by the reason therof vncontrouleable And against Cresconius the Grammarian hee thus writeth lib. 2. cap. 32. I am not moued with the authority of this Epistle but I consider theÌ„ out of the Canonical books and if they agree with the worde of God I receiue them with prayse if they disagre I refuse them with peace The like he hath Epist 3. Epist 112. And Ierome ad Theoph. is of the same iudgment I know that I esteeme otherwise the Apostles and otherwise other interpreters these men speak truth alwayes these men in some things do erre somtime These Fathers themselues confes themselues to be but meÌ„ wil vs to beleeue theÌ„ no farther theÌ„ they agree with Gods word Therfore they building vpoÌ„ Christ aswell as your newe ought to be beleeued rather in this point then they For what they wrote in this controuersy the same did all other godly Interpreters both Greek and Latin hauing a good warrant from Gods word But those of your side write contrary to Gods word to the auncient Fathers yea and contrarie to the new Fathers namly Luther Selueccer Chytraeus Pomeran Aepinus Lucas Lossius Alesius Aretius Peter Martyr M. Fox and M. Nowel Therefore because Augustine and Ierome agree both with the old and new writers especially with the worde of God I like better of them teaching the affirmatiue then of any other labouring to proue the negatiue To end therefore you must note this that all sayings of the Fathers either they are demonstratiue out of the scriptures then they are the voyce of God or else probable and these are the voyce of man or else false and then they are the voice of the Serpent HVME his reioynder to the 2. sect YOu make my argâ—ments as pleaseth you If wee had no better then you would affoorde vs wee were vnworthie of credite and worthie of your reproches First you alter the conclusion I neuer thoght said or wrote that their interpretations are not to bee admitted nor their sayings alledged in a controversie of Divinity Neither write I against theÌ„ except
it be a discredite to them that other men bee thought off aswell as they My conclusion was that their names broght no more credite to your cause then Calvine Beza did bring ours My arguments were twise so manie as you make them 1. That they were all but men 2. That they who now are old were sometimes new 3. That they had no better warrant of Gods Spirit 4. That errors grew as thicke in their times as in ours Seeing then all men are fraile and old errours are as bad as newe and newe truthes as good as olde seeing the spirit of truth was then no stronger nor the spirit of error weaker all things in this comparison you see are aequall and my argumeÌ„t holdes for anie thing that you haue said You take the bit in your teeth and runne out of the way with an argument ab accidente Therefore fare-you-well that is not my way You cite Augustine and Ierome onelie to make vp nomber Their confession of their owne frailtie is against you If my arguments had not beene so true before that no witnesses can make them truer this would haue helpt mee well Men may see that you haue either a meruelous ill cause or great stoare of small judgement that can take so much paines to bring witnes into the courte to condemne your selfe And heere nowe seeing your owne men do counsell mee to trust no man without the worde I conjure you to trouble mee no more with your great musters of Luther Selneccer Chytreus Pomeranus c. If I would run that course we should set al the learned of the world together by the eares You will beare mee down I confesse with nomber For all the Monkes Friars Iesuites Abbotts Bishops Cardinals and Popes woulde swaie to your side If I were not sure of God and his truth I would neuer draw sword nor giue stroake in the cause HVME sect 3. THeir weaknes is no where more apparant then in this mater that we haue now in hand for â—erom ioineth his opinioÌ„ herein with a palpable error that Christ descended to deliuer the Fathers which to that day had bin in prison Augustine is not far behinde him who though hee confesseth that the Fathers were in ioy with Abraham Lazarus yet after some long disputation whether he did deliver all or some why these more then those at length he concludeth that hee did deliuer whome hee him selfe thought good For after that they had once conceaved that his soule descended into a locall hell There followed which could not choose many inconueniences There was non of them dreamed that which you avouch that hee descended into hell there to triumph or bind the divels or to augment their sorrows by shewing them from what grace they had fallen HILL his reply You write that Ierome and Augustine did hold a palpable error that is that Christ descended to deliuer the Fathers I hope you will not deny but the fathers haue their deliuerance by Christ from hell Therfore by the merits and works of Christ who I am sure conquered both deth and hell Therefore where you proue that Augustine and Ierome do erre I will leaue them as I saide before but where in they spake the truth I will prayse God for them But let vs see howe many wayes the scripture may be corrupted that is by adding altering diminishing Eue in the third Chap. of Genesis taught all her children so to doe for in the 3. verse thus shee saith But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden God hath said ye shal not eat of it neither shall ye touch it least ye dye First she changeth the word of God for God fayth Gen. 2. 17. of the tre of knowledge of good and euill thou shalt not eate Those words of the tree of knowledge of good and euill she changeth putteth in for them in the miust of the garden Farther God said they shuld not eat of it shee added that they might not touch it God said they should surely dye Eue said least wee dye heere she diminished the scriptures If then the Fathers haue added to the scriptures that the Fathers were fet out of hell there I leaue them and if you change hell in to graue as you do in the 16. psal and Act. 2. I wil leaue you also for I stand not vpon mens sayings but vpon the word of God But where you boldly affirme that not one of the Fathers haue deemed that which I say you shewe your self either to bee malicious in hiding the truth or else so ignorant that you haue not read the Fathers for diuers both old new are of my iudgement Ambrose on the fourth Chapter of the Ephesians thus writeth Christ therefore comming downe from heauen into the earth was borne a man afterward he died and descended into Hell from whence rising the third day he shewed death vanquished to every creature Augustine de tempore In his 137. sermon and in his thrid sermon of the resurrection thus sayeth Hell did restore him as a conquerour and the heauens did receaue him as a triumpher And in his second sermon hee saieth thus Behold you haue hard what our defender the God of vengeance is saide to haue done freely For after he was exalted that is was hanged of the Iewes on the crosse that I may touche these thinges brieflie assoone as hee had giuen vp the ghost the soule vnited to the Diuinitie descended into the bottom of hel and when he had touched the band of darkenesse as a fearefull glorious spoyler the wicked hellish Legions were affrayde trembling began to enquire saying Who is this dreadful glorious man Eusebius writing of the resurrection of our sauiour hath the like We must know that in the selfe same houre wherein our Sauiour bowing his head gaue vp the ghost his body being left in the graue his foul with the Diuinitie went downe to triumph ouer Hell Fulgentius writing to King Thtasymund in his third booke and eight Chapter not dreaming but wel aduised thus writeth The true humanitie of the sonne of God neyther was wholye in the graue nor wholie in hell but in the Sepulcher hee lay dead according to his true fleshe but in his Soule descended into Hell In his soule hee returned to the flesh which lay in the Sepulcher but in respect of the Diuinitie which neither is holden in place nor limited by bond he was wholy in the graue with his flesh and wholy with his Soule in Hel and by this meanes was fully enery where Christ because God was not seperated from the humanitie which he had assumpted which was both with his Soule in Hell that from Hel his Soule might returne a Conqueresse and was with his fleshe that by reason of his speedie resurrection it might not be corrupted I haue heere alleaged the
words as I speak them HVMâ— his 5. Sect. BVt that hee neuer was there hee is too curious that will not stand content with Christes owne testimonies Father into thy handes I commend my spirit And in another place This day shalt thou bee with mee in Paradice And heere it is a world to see how men on your side labour to put out this candel First you say that this place Father into thy hands I commend my spirit is borrowed of Dauid and must bee taken in the same sense as Dauid vsed it before But you must consider when we vse other mens wordes either we cite them as testimonies or vsurpe them by imitation If we bring them in as witnesses wee may not alter their testimonie but if wee imitate them wee may without impeachmeÌ„t apply them to what sense best may beseeme our purpose In this place Christ citeth not Dauids wordes to testifie of his passion but imitateth Dauid in commending his soule into the handes of God Where you see that no necessity inforceth the same sense But be it so and I thinke it is so and that it maketh much against you For seing Dauids soule commeÌ„ded into the hands of God was neuer in Hell it will follow that Christes soule commended to the same protector was lykewise neuer there except you will ascribe lesse vertue to Christs prayers then to Dauids But Dauids soule say you went not streight way into heaven because he lived manie yeares after That he liued anie long time after if it were denied you will hardlie proue it But that maketh not to the question when Davids soule came into heauen But whether hee that commendeth his soule into the hands of God doth purpose that it shall descend into hell prooue that and you shall haue the goall As for Dauid he hauing deuoured heauen in hope doubted not if he liued anie long time after to speake that in the praesent time which he was well assured would come to pas And seeing Dauid was a figure of Christ and spake manie things in his owne person which aggree better with the person figured then with the figure these wordes may bee vnderstood as the casting of lottes on his garment and the digging of his hands and feet Wherefore if you will answere this place to the satisfaction of them that dissent from you you must bring proof that hee that meaneth to goe to Hell doth commend his soule into the handes of God or els you shall neuer bee able to darken the light of this Sunne with anie cloude of Sophistrie HILL his reply INdeed if these woords were spoken in the present time some shew of truth were in your words but in the Greeke they are in the future-tence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Father into thy hands I wil coÌ„mit my spirit Now your argument is this Christ commended his soule vnto his Father ergo immediatly he went not downe to hell Heere is more in your conclusion then is in your premises You may coâ—clud his soule went to heauen But not immediatly for it went to hell as I haue proued before for hell in the 16 Psalme doth not signifie the sorrowes of hell but the place as I haue confirmed already Therefore it is better to translate I wil commend then I do commend as Stephanus oâ— this place noteth Paule sayth Eph. 4. and 10. verse Now in that he ascended what is it but that he first descended into the lowest parts of the earth He that descended is euen the same that ascended farte aboue all heauens to fulfill all things Now if the same Christ did first desceÌ„d which did ascend then he descended in soule and body as he ascended in soule and body For both these must be effected in a wonderfull maner for they are reckoned by Salomon amongst the most stupendious works of the Sonne of God Proâ— 30. 4. Who hath ascended vp to heauen and descended who hath gathered the winde together in his fyst who hath established all the ends of the world By this scripture I iuferre that to ascend and descend are as miraculous works as to create and gouerne the world But if the soule of Christ did got to heaueÌ„ immediatly as you affirms contrary to this text then the descending of Christ had not bene so maruelous as his ascending Besides as you after alleage there is but one ascending but if Christs soule first went to heauen then his body then were there two ascensions But euen as Christ was but once borne and once dyed and once buried and once rose from the dead and but once commeth into iudgment so as Cyprian saith in his Sermon of the ascending of Christ Christ did once descend into hell they shall see God no more on the crosse nor they that are damned in hel Wherefore may it please you to accept the iudgement of Athanasius a Greke Father a man persecuted for the truthes sake by the Arrians he in his Creede saith thus who suffred for our saluation and descended into hell And interpreting the 1. Cor. 3. writeth Satan was enuious against our sauior for he killed him not knowing that it wold make against himself for Christ after his cros going down into hel hath vaÌ„quished death And becaus he knew no sin be could not be holde of deth Thus you see that not only Hill Augustine and Ierome doe say that Christ after hee had vttered these words into thy hands I will commend my spirit but Athanasius a Greek father who better then you vnderstood the meaning of these words Therefore it is a woÌ„der to see how those of your side labour to extinguish this everlasting light of Gods truth set vp a cousuming candle of your owne making Where you teach that Christs Soule did no more descend into hell then Dauids did therin you are deceaued For Christ was to deliuer vs from hell Dauid also wherefore if Christs soule had not gone to hell Dauids must and mine and yours And for this cause as you say they are true in Christ figured but not in Dauid the figure and herevpon Peter thus reasoneth that they could not be true in Dauid For Christ soule was in hel and yet not tormented his body in the graue but not corrupted wheras Dauids body saw corruption and if his soule had gone to hell it had found no redemption Therefore to be in graue and returne without corruption and to be in hell and returne with conquest of the diuell were two peculiar things to the Sonne of God not to any other of the sons of men And heere you vtter an other blasphemy that Christs soule had no other prerogatiue then Dauids soule for by the same reasone you may argue that Christs body had no greater prerogatiue then Dauids body for as this is false so
was the end of his descending But his ascending was from this earth whereon we converse Ergo the end of this descending was onelie to this earth whereon we conuerse and not into hell as you gather out of this place My maior is proued by the second rule because the mouer is one Christ the motions contrarie ascending and descending The minor is proued Mark 16. 19. Luke 26. 51. Act. 1 9. by al the Symbols or summes of our faith by the cōmon consent of all Divines and the vsuall speach of all Christians that euer was or is To this you answere that the maior is vtterlie false because Christ saith Mat 12. 40. At Ionas was three dayes and three nights in the whales bellie so the sonne of man must be three dayes and three nights in the heart of the earth Indeede if the rule of nature were contrarie to this saying of Christ I shoulde sooner yeelde that nature might erre then the Lord of nature lie But Christ came neither to destroy the lawe giuen to his church nor to the rest of his creatures called the law of nature Wherefore this answere was not Doctor-like If you had looked well about you you might haue seene that his beeing three daies and three nights in the heart of the earth pertaineth to his buriall and not to his descending more then his rysing again out of the hart of the earth pertaineth to his ascension For these are foure distinct things His descending from heauen into his humane state his burial and laying vp in the heart of the earth after his death his resurrection and returning againe from the heart of the earth into the state he was separated from by death his ascending from the earth vp into heauen I drew also another reason from the first principle to prevēt an answere that his descending might haue beene first from heauen into his humane state and then out of his humane state into hell It was this if Christs descending from heauen did end in Hell then it culd not bee one motion being so manie yeares intermitted But it was but one motion Ergo it ended not in Hell To this you answere that I who charge you with cloudes of Sophistrie do raise such mistes of Sophistications that you cannot see in them what I mean by this one motion But there is not the cause That the Owle cānot see in the light the fault is not in the light but in the eie of the owle There is not a gnerall in Oxenford that had spent a moneth in reading Aristotles 5. and 6. bookes de natura that would not haue knowne this argument One descending is but one motion Paule speaketh heere but of one descension Ergo but of one motion Your degrees of humiliation are heere impertinent Howe properlie they are distinguished I referre it to the margent You tell mee in the beginning that my first reason was from the place of Iohn I came from my Father into the worlde c. Now sillie man I pitie your simplicitie That is no reason at all But seeing I was to apply naturall reason to this text I brought that place to proue that I made no private sens of these words Which course if you would follow your wrangling would soone weare to an end But you say that that place doeth little or nothing pertaine to this place that heere wee haue in hand A fig is not liker a fig then that is like this That hee descended and that he came from the Father that he ascended and that hee went to his Father are so like that though you put on your spectacles you will not finde a haire betweene them The argument that you frame heere for mee and the two absurd similies framed on the same block let them bee buried in the brain that bred them That is the fittest coffen I know for such rotten stuffe Wherefore to conclude this disputation about these wordes seeing neither your examples in the former section wil fit your hand nor this place tolerate your absurde sense I muste put you in minde of Chippenhames pulpite There be manie godlie soules that would be glad to see you so honest as to performe the worde that you passed there before them HVME his 11. Sect. YOur next argument is taken from the wordes of our Sauiour to Marie Magdalene forbidding her to touche him because he had not yet bene with his Father Whervpon you gather seing the whole man is said to be wher the soule is that Christs soule had not beene in heaven because he himself had not beene there It is a wonder if a man of your learning seeth not so manifest a fallacie For though by a figure a man may well say that the whole is where there is but a part yet it followeth not where the whole is not that there is no parte An argument you knowe a tot◠divise ad negationem omnium partium was neuer current amongst the learned For example The whole race of mankind is not in England Ergo there is no men there O◠Edmond Campion hangeth not ouer New-gate Ergo no parte of him hangeth there Like to this is your reason The whole man Christ was not in heauen Ergo his soule was not there That these wordes of Christ were meant of the whole it is apparant by the text For that which had not yet been with his Father was the same that Marie was forbid to touch That I beleeue you will not say was his soule which is not subject to feeling but the whole man consisting of soule bodie Wherefore it was the whole man that Christ tolde Marie was not with his Father HIL his Reply MY next place was not this but a text out of Syrac 17. 21. At the last shall he arise and reward them and shall repay their reward upon their heads and shall turne them into the lower partes of the earth If the margin is noted Math. 25. 35. So that this place sheweth that after iudgement the wicked shal be turned into the lower parts of the earth that is hell This place because you nor your Sinod can answere you haue passed it ouer and saide nothing to it but are now com to your scholepoints the which when I vse you call sophistry and so it were indeed if I did vse them as you doe You say an argument drawen negatiuely from the whole to the parts doth not hold True it is if by parts you meane integral parts but not essentiall parts My instance was thus Math. 8 11. Many shal come from the East and the West and shal rest with Abraham Isaac Iacob in the kingdom of heauen Out of this place I proue that where the soule of man is after death there is the mā said to be as we vsually say that these Patriarks and all the saints are in heauen though their bodies be in the earth and are dust and ashes If then
It was the improbabilitie of your opinion that droue a man of so much judgement as Erasmus was to make that doubt But Carlill and Servetus you say do denie it In your printed sermon as you call it you lay your malice more open There you alledge for this antiquitie joined with veritie so there you call your owne opinion all the learned of all ages old and new all the Prophetes and Apostles and sybilles of the heathen all the creatures in heauen earth liuing and dead and lastlie all the Divels thēselues Onelie some possessed you say with Divels as the Iewes Seruetus and Carlill denie it Heere you vtter your choller more plainelie challenging to your owne side all the learned of all ages olde and newe and leauing nothing to your aduersaries but block-isme dol-tisme and diuelish giddinesse But God bee thanked you haue not the disposing of gifts and spirits There be men that denyes your opinion to haue anie ground in the word as farre excelling you in all kindes of learning as you count your self before Sir Thomas your Curat at Goosage and of such zeale and constancy in Gods cause with out regard of wordlie preferments as I pray God a man that can holde two benefices and would haue seauen if he could get them might mend that fault and shew himself as farre from Diuelish giddinesse as they As for Servetus I neuer saw his book which Calvine in his Epistles doth say was printed at Vienna But this I know that he held many grosse errors concerning the Trinitie Humanitie and Deitie of Christ as it is apparent in an Epistle written by the Ministers of Basil to the Syndicks and senate of Geneva As for this question I know not what he held but it is not likelie that euer he touched it And this I am sure of that he was burned by the greatest favorites of our opinion I meane the Genevites Carlill excepting his fault was a man for judgement and learning manie degrees before your self He made a slip indeede as who hath not Though you throwe the first stone at him you are not cleare your self Besides the mani-slips made in this book and other pulpits also you taught on S. Iames his day in Trubridge Anno 1591. If I do wel remember the yeare that weomen did beare children without pain in time of innocencie And because you would be sure not to be mistaken you did repeate it in the after noone in the same tearmes that you spake it in the fore-noone a fault of lesse judgement and learning then Carlils was The Iewes bee enemies to our faith and therefore doe not meete with vs nor acknowledge the truth that we do holde in this article As for the place that they take from you in the Hebrew Psalme and wherupon your choller doth rise I see no cause why they are not to bee beleeued in their owne tougue before all others that haue learned that tongue of them Their opinion of those words if they be taken right doth impeach Christs passion not so much as your own what euer it pleaseth you and Aepinus to dreame and suspect without cause and matter But vpon the Iewes the enemies of our faith Servetus an Hereticke with Carlill whome for his fault not so foule as your owne you boldlie and peremptorlie tearme possessed with a Diuell in this place you would faine lay the firste broaching of our opinion to deceaue the simple I hope you will leaue this craft one day Howsoeuer you may purchesse a plause amongest the ignorant the wise and learned will hisse you out of the schooles if you runne this course as you haue begunne HVME his 17. Sect. THey say that you preached the same at Leycock condemning all men that dissent from you of furie and madnesse as men fighting against the holie Ghost and spurning at a doctrine so profitable so godlie so wholesome and so full of all comfort and solace Heere M. Hill I appeale to your owne conscience what profite what commoditie what health safetie or solace is in your opinion that ours compriseth not Seeing our whole solace and safetie comfort and commoditie consisteth in this that we vnderstand that Christ God and man hath takē vpon him our curse and paying a full ransome for our sinnes vpon the Crosse hath reconciled vs to the loue of his Farher which we had loste by our Father Adam that nowe wee assure our selues of heauen without all feare of Hell What either comfort or commoditie can the sending of Christ into a place where ther was left no comfort nor commoditye adde to this so perfite and full a joy All good men are sorie that you carrying the commendation of zeale and learning haue joined your selfe with M. Chalfont who enterprised this matter so vnaduisedly to say no worse and hath almost shaken the foundation of the Church which God forbid with a dangerous division Your side I confesse hath manie great defendants which doe rather speake for you then confirme your opinion either with scripture or reason I was my self of your opinion till the sway of truth which I haue alwaies rather followed then mine owne fantasies did carie mee to the contrarie I am perswaded that manie of your authors if they had heard the reasons that you heare would neuer haue said as you doe But because the ignorant may not think that you haue all the world on your side Whether you regarde the nomber or the excellencie of the men our cause is nothing inferiour to yours As for M. Wisedome if he had erred it had beene more Christian-like to haue confuted him by priuate conference But seeing his doctrine hath the consent of most of the learned of our times and is so fortressed with Scripture and reason as heere you see it wanteth all excuse of modestie to handle him in open audience before such a multitude in such sort as M. Chalfont did and you confirmed in action though not in words For my part I am and will be on his side till I heere better reason from you Which when it commeth it shal carie me to anie truth that you can proue Further I wil not wagge the bredth of a naile If you can plainelie without cloak and colour confute my reasons and confirm your owne I promise you to turne my song If otherwaies I hope you will bee as good as that word which you past in the pulpite before so manie witnesses If you will satisfie mee you must answere me by writing For spoken words passe faster away then my dull senses can digest the reasons I wrote this in Latine because I wold not haue it vnderstood of the common sort I translated it into Englishe at the sute of a Gentleman that lay heer the last spring That copie by some negligence went farther abroad then I was willing I left it with a freend or two to deliuer it to you when I went in Scotland They conferring together delayed it till my returne least I
betwise two if you rekon right 2 But not one against Aug. nor Ierome 3 These coÌ„clusions you neuer founde in my papers 4 These coÌ„clusions you neuer founde in my papers 5 make what you will my argument is not against new nor olde 6 This argument is not lyke mine 7 This conclusion wil noâ— follâ—w in my forme 8 The fallacie of your argument is not ab accidente but à non causa pro causa 9 This is wrong collected the reason is not from error to Augustine Ierome 10 To be a Father is an accident itâ—self and hath no substance 11 This is not the substance but the proper fact of Fathers 12 That is it that I woulde haue 13 thes places would help mee well if need requyred If my cause had waÌ„ted proofe I would haue bestowed a see on you 14 thes places would help mee well if need requyred If my cause had waÌ„ted proofe I would haue bestowed a see on you 15 thes places would help mee well if need requyred If my cause had waÌ„ted proofe I would haue bestowed a see on you 16 Then this makes for me that they wer but men 17 I see no reson in that 18 In these three places you beg the question 19 In these three places you beg the question 20 In these three places you beg the question 21 We holde the affirmatiue that hee descended in to hell as well as you 22 This ende is impertinét to this bodie If it were not to shew the reader how finely you can distinguish the voice of the Fathers But seing in their voice is so much drosse bring me I pray you no voice but Gods wherin is nothing but pure mettall Ier. 4. Ephes August ad Clodium The paralogismes of this sect 23 But I will denie and so will you that he weÌ„t to hell to deliuer theÌ„ 24 This is nor the question 25 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 This is shufled on heere as Tailers vsed haire in olde time to stuffe hoses 26 We may as wel say that you change graue into hel Do not you confesse in the next sect that the originall doth signifie the one as well as the other is this changing Fie D. deale honestlie b hold there M. D. remeÌ„ber that hereafter I shall finde time to put you in minde of this againe 27 You mistake mee blindlie read againe 28 I spake onlie of Aug. Ier. read again 29 Though I might stand to this becaus they send Christ to hell wherein the Fathers were detained and you to the place of the damned yet this is not the thing that I said I onelie said neither August nor Ierome did send Christ to hell on your erand to triumph ther and cut-face those miserable wretches 30 This malice and your heare grew both in one grouÌ„d 31 Heer Ambrose faith not that which I deny 32 Let hel be heer taken for the condition of death and this place may haue a favorable construction 33 This place of Augustine saieth it not 34 This place of Fulgentius saith it not 35 If you haue no more in Mollerus for you then this he is neither for your hell nor your triumph 36 Before you hewe this block to fit your hand you must first perswade vs that the lowermost partes of the earth can be nothing els but hell 37 What will you gaine that begraÌ„ted 38 M. Foxe hath nothing in all that worke to help you but onlie the same picture in the beginning of his book which your printer hath set before yours Therefore you shoulde quote the printer you do M. Foxe wrong 39 You charg me vntruelie with vntruths therefore take ye the pig that bred the pig 40 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the descending into Hell cannot manifest his death Obscurius non illustrat obscurum 41 That he did by his death not by his descending into hell Epist ad Aglasiam quest 1. tom 3. Epist It is a wicked thing to say that Christ descended into hell or place of the damned The Paralogismes in the D. reply 42 I say that your tale and his ar not one He meaneth a place where the Fathers wer detained till Christes comming You meane the place of the damned where the fathers neuer were 43 His owne not yours 44 Doth the final end pertaine nothing to that which worketh for it this is new logick 45 Doubteth he not but that the Fathers were in hel 46 No more doth he in the place cited by me 47 You dream of mirth wheÌ„ saw ye me laugh at that sport 48 When you haue laid that before mee You shall see how honestly I wil demaine my self a In your written copy it is M. Caluin and mee why you haue turned it I remit to the reader 49 As he that builded a wal of sand on a sure rocke 50 This was not my argument 51 I cannot blame you 52 Peter and I speak not of one thing se the answere 53 Petersaith not that the hel wherein he was is spoken of the resurrection 54 That his soule was not left in hell sayeth Peter is spoken of his resurrection 55 Foolishe D. howe oft must I tell you that his being in hell is not spoken of his resurrection 56 He was glad of his resurrection not of his discending into hell 57 Read againe I saide not so I saide that he suffered the whole torments of hell on the crosse Of all his tormentes I spake not 58 It is inded as you tak the name of the crosse and you made it 59 You fight with your owne shadow 60 I said what I said and not what you thought 61 Now lay on lode you haue got the victorie 62 Or els you do faine look on my latine D. and blush for shame 63 was dauid a Christian 64 Can you say no worse 65 Said I so Is it all one to take a text as it seemeth most probable and to tak it after our pleasure when will you deale plainelie 66 This place might haue bene spared for anie thing that I haue saide 67 I am of the same minde Heerein Hillaries minde is no better then mine 1. Cor. 1. 18. Heb. 12. 2. Ephes 2. 16. Psal 22. 16. 18 The Paralâ—gismes in the D. reply 68 No more but som shew I warraÌ„t you 69 that future time is in voice not in sense 70 That is not my argument 71 We say he went not to hell at all 72 When you make the argument you may put what you wil in the conclusion 73 You beg the question 74 Wherfore M. Doctor Bring this therfore into mood and figure 75 This text is handled in the 8 section of purpose and is therefore heere an vntimelie frute 76 He is the same per 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 77 This is new divinitie that Christ descended from heauen in soule and bodie 78 A fallacie ab accidente These must be effected after a wonderfull manner Ergo in soule