Demonstration it is either in respect of his excellencie aboue other men or the place whereof he is aboue other places But neither of these haue euer bene or hereafter can be ergo You might haue remembred the old rule Remonstrance that from insufficient enumeration of the parts or of the causes the argument doth not hold or this fallacie is of the consequent as saieth Aristotle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 when you mistake the cause The lawfulnesse of his office is in regard of his superioritie grounded on the word of God and in respect of his authoritie wherewith he is put in trust by the prince and Parliament But I answere thus If the office of the seignorie be lawfull it is either in respect of the excellencie of the men or of the most illustrious and celebrated place not the first for an Artisan elder is as good and substantiall an elder as any Earle or honourable man and by their owne platforme he must sit cheeke by ioll by the noblest Erle or counseller of the land Neither the second for no place is better or worse vnto them who seeke for equalitie Non locus virum sed vir locum honestat The place giueth not credite to the man but the man to the place ergo the seignorie is not lawfull in respect of the man or place and consequently hath none authoritie or gouernment The 1. Allegation Caluin lib. 4. Institut cap. 11. sect 7. Demonstration Beza in the booke of diuorcements speaketh against iurisdiction of bishops and others substitute officers If you alleage new writers one for one Remonstrance we haue an Oliuer for a Rowland if you alleage two wee can produce twise so many Bullinger and Musculus Hemingius Gualter and Zanchus c. But our meaning is not to muster authorities or recite the names of authors Pauperis est numer are pecus Goe rather to the things then names Caluins wordes are against the papists Iurisdictionem suam spiritualem iactant Romanenses Hee alloweth in his institutions Patriarkes Archbishops and bishops in the primitiue Church Shew any impietie in the offices of ours more then in those Beza speaketh against their dealings in those causes that know more in such causes any one of them then 20. of his Assistants in Eldership but if you alleage the onely fathers and begetters of presbyteries for them we will set Ridley and Iewell for bishops as learned as these in all respects and as godly The 2. Allegation Peter Martyr vpon the 13. to the Romanes Demonstration speaketh agaynst ciuill Iurisdiction in Bishops and by the same reason condemneth it in their substitutes Peter Martyr speaketh not against any iurisdiction Remonstrance which is a furtherance but popish iurisdiction which is a hinderance to the Gospell But whatsoeuer Peter Martyr saith we say this to you Bishops in respect they are bishops in England haue no ciuill iurisdiction for the distinction of ciuill and ecclesiasticall matters is more priciselie and vpon greater penalties here retained then else-where in all Christendome If it bee said some matters they handle bee ciuill that are called ecclesiasticall wee aske whether oeconomicall matters bee not a part of ciuill wherein they are as husbandly nay niggardly as any and further demaund a rule out of Gods word of them that vrge this as a sinne whereby to know a specificall difference betweene ciuill and Ecclesiasticall causes They cannot say because some of those which Ecclesiasticall courtes here handle bee accounted else-where ciuill therefore they may not be here Ecclesiasticall for of the contrary some matters here mere ciuill are else-where holden Ecclesiasticall As for example in Geneua and Scotland they inflict censures on those which for ciuill enormious crimes the magistrat hath punished or pardoned as felons manslears such like and all their presbyteries euen that among the Englishmen at Middleborough vse to deale with qualifiyng of forfeitures of bonds and accounts betweene hard masters and their prentises and other such Chancerie matters much more therefore those may iustly be accounted ecclesiastical which the law ciuill magistrate do put ouer to ecclesiastical mē better thē those which being in truth mere ciuil are intruded vpō the presbyteries Causes beneficial viz. for titles and maintenance of Ministers causes matrimonial diffamatorie with breach of charitie where none action lieth in ciuill Courts punishment of sinnes not punishable by the ciuil Magistrate and of reparations of churches churchyards which are all the heads of matters that bishops may hādle sauing testamentarie you wil I hope allow to be Ecclesiastical As for testamentary causes euen at the common law of this land they haue bene alwaies made Ecclesiasticall both because that lawe hath litle direction in those causes but such as is borrowed from the ciuill and Ecclesiastical lawes and for that mens last wils at least were wont do conteine sundrie demises for Churches orphanes poore captiues and such like good vses whereof the Church had the fourth part and wherein Bishops are intended to be most carefull to minister right indifferently to all for performance of the deads will Any iurisdiction ciuill which Bishops or some Ecclesiasticall persons haue is not claimed by them as due to their functions but imposed by the Prince as vpon subiects seruiceable for the Realme and for a credite to their places as Counseller Ambassador Iustice of the Peace c. For seeing they are subiects freemen and citizens of the Common-wealth besides their ministerie of the Church I would knowe whether they owe not this dutie being imposed on them vnto the Common-wealth and their Prince But we shall not I trust neede to perswade much with these men for they are not so squemish of ciuill honor and function as they would then seeme whiles their malignant eies are onely fastened vpon Bishops For where they haue sway neither prince nor Magistrate shall proclaime feast or fast treate of league peace or warre with any Prince nor make any ordinance without their aduise * The example of the reuerend learned man they will haue Deputies of the Churches in Parliament when they haue shut out Bishops and they thrust their Elders and Ministers vpon Kings to sitte with their other Counsellors as was not long since practised Is any matter most ciuil euen almost of least moment determined at Geneua without Beza insomuch as when troubles increase he omitteth his readings and preachings sundry times Is he not of the counsell of 60. in that state was not Villiers Secretarie of estate to the Prince of Orenge and further if we may beleeue the Chaos de Politia ciuili ecclesiastica Lib. 3. which Law Cha. was so earnest to haue printed at Leyden ministers and persons Ecclesiasticall in that they are citizens may nay in respect they are wise learned ought to be of counsell of Princes in affaires ciuill of the Common-wealth and to giue especiall direction euen in setting vp and deposing of Princes
A REMONSTRANCE OR PLAINE DETECTION OF SOME OF THE FAVLTS AND HIDEOVS SORES OF SVCH SILLIE SYLLOGISMES AND IMPERTINENT ALLEGATIONS AS OVT OF sundrie factious Pamphlets and Rhapsodies are cobled vp together in a Booke Entituled A DEMONSTRATION OF DISCIPLINE Wherein also The true state of the Controuersie of most of the points in variance is by the way declared 2. Timoth. 3. ver 5 6 7. They haue a shew of godlinesse but haue denied the power thereof turne away therefore from such for of this sort are they which creepe into houses and lead captiue simple women laden with sinnes and led with diuers lustes which are euer learning and are neuer able to come to the knowledge of the trueth Augustinus in Psal 34. Quare in Praecisione vultis magnificare nomen Domini quare duos populos ex vno vultis facere Cyprianus lib. 4. epist 9. ad Florentium Pupianum Pupianus solus integer inuiolatus sanctus pudicus qui nobis miscere se noluit in Paradiso in regno coelorum solus habitabit Imprinted at London by GEORGE BISHOP and RAFE NEWBERIE An. Domini 1590. TO THE FACTIOVS AND TVRBVLENT T. C.VV.T I.P. AND TO THE REST OF THAT ANarchicall disordered Alphabet which trouble the quiet and peace of the Church of England MAnifold and foole-hardie haue your oppositions and practises bene against the setlement of that discipline of the Church of England which beyond all iust contradiction we rightly mainteine as lineally deduced from the Apostles and primitiue times downeward vnto vs and to be reduced from our times vpward vnto them As namely by your opposite Admonitions to the Parliament by Pamphlet-writing of Replies by Counterpoyson by Abstract by Dialoguizing by Martinizing or printing of infamous libels by penning or Penrying of malepart and treasonable letters by coursing and discoursing ouer the holy discipline of the Church And nowe at last by shewe and demonstration or by making colourable shewe and false demonstration to conclude your discipline in Syllogisme That is to seclude your selues from all pretence of the thing you would haue for euer after before you are awares and that in Moode and Figure The subtiller sorte of Heretikes haue done no more then you haue done to vexe the Church Tertullian de Praescript aduers Hâ—â—â— Apelles the disciple of Marcion had certaine priuate but extraordinarie Lectures or Readings or prophesies of his owne which they called Phaneroseis declarations or demonstrations of a certaine maide named Philumena whome he followed as a Prophetesse Habet praetereà suos libros quos inscripsit Syllogismorum Besides this he hath his bookes to which he giueth this title of Syllogismes wherein he vndertakes to proue That whatsoeuer Moses hath writteÌ„ is not true but false Semblably this scholler of T. C. besides all their prophesyings conferences priuate sermonings parlour exercising libellings hath brought vnto light this booke of demonstratiue Syllogismes an incredible and singular good method and most seruiceable to their owne times which method if either your Ecclesiasticall discipliners A. B. C. D. or T.C. or any other of your Alphabet had heretofore embraced and bound them selues fast vnto we should not haue needed to pursue after your extrauagant and stragling conceipts lying so scattered in your worthie commentaries whereby you doe nothing else then blurre paper as alwaies saying one the same thing nor your selues should be so farre off from ioyning a right issue to determine trie the cause For by this demonstratiue dealing all waste wordes had bene pared away as excrementious and superfluous to the body and state of the question and your vndutifull demeanors against the proceedings superioritie of Church-gouernors altogether spared Which stratageme as in the sight of God and his Angels detestable and damnable it hath rather with silence then with censure bene answered and your wits exceedingly misliked therefore so this sophisme or manner of paralogisme if it were somewhat more mannerly as dealing with materiall pointes and letting alone personall might deserue lesse reprehension or mislike whereunto I haue framed this briefe answere with Remonstrance shewing the absurditie of your reasons fallacie of your syllogismes indemonstrable demonstrations compiled by other in their bookes combined vp in this booke of yours worthied by you of this title to be named a Demonstration and to be surnamed a Demonstration of the holy discipline of the Church not the discipline of the holy Church because the Church is not so holy but must be hallowed by the discipline Whiles I am thus conuersant in answering I list not make of ten apparent digression from the propositions which I answere by instance to the contrarie distinction or deniall and by returning or retorting all vpon your selues as I might neither make a roadeouer to inuade other mens persons with selaunder as the Demonstrator doth particularly by producing at his pleasure euery one into the Theatre of enuious diffamation but I rather leaue a blanke or cyphre in Algorisme or an Abecedarie name And doe farther pray that all protestations of your zeale and godlines laied aside this Academicall lawe of disputing schoolelike being once enacted by your selues may not be repealed That whether your Demonstrator hath more to say he may still syllogize or if he haue ought to gaine-say it may please him to distinguish flatly denie or giue an instance to an affirmatiue point But if he haue no more to say wherewith to fortifie his part nor is able in this forme to dispose of his sayings Let the wiser sort of your sectaries suspend their iudgement from either crediting or admiring those pitifull demonstrations All that I haue said is no more in substance then that which hath bene aforesaid The solutions of your arguments are included in the answeres to the Admonition in the defense of that answere in the answere to the Abstract in the defense of the discipline of the Church of England and such other learned workes excepting some forced allegations annexed to the Demonstration and the coyned syllogismes All which by this method of Remonstrance is reanswered for it is but one answere Omne verum vero consentaneum Euery truth is but agreeeble to a trueth Veritas est simplex mendacium est multiplex there is but one trueth And although you multiply and vrge your falshood or diuide or subdiuide or part into infinite fractions yet it is but one and the same obiection one Proteus putting on diuerse mishapes the argument sometime clowded vnder an equinoction or coloured with ambiguitie of termes or vailed with inconsequencie or disorderly disposition of moode and figure or transposition of partes of the figure or borrowing Ignorationem elenchi Ignorance or vncunning whether the proposition holde Ad idem secundum idem c. respectiuely to this and not to that or by begging Petitionem principij to conclude one and the same by the selfe same Or to be beholding to the fallacte à non causa by arguing from insufficient cause vntrue effect and
you shall see the monstruousnesse of your misbegotten conceiued foule Embryon deformed and mishaped birth borne into the world of Christianitie which you are so enamoured vpon and so fond ouer that euery one must kisse embrace it in his armes blush not to make shew demonstration of triumph of the birth natiuitie of the same How soeuer your fancie deludeth you with ioie this monster may not be suffered to liue vpon the face of the earth 1. Cor. 15.35 S. Paul somtime sayd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I haue fought with beasts vnder the shape of men at Ephesus that is with beastly and monstruous men and their opinions So I now say or will assaie to encounter the Demonstrator and his demonstrations to quell this monster amongst men Of the same mind are many moe of our excellent learned men Men are now awakened and will no longer endure these insignious abuses offered to the Church to the Vniuersities to the Colledges of learned men No no T.C. you the whole busie sect of Puritans do not thinke any longer to pester the Church of England You lacke the most of you for any thing I see sound Logike and other learnings diuine and humane Perchance you or some of the most ignominious amongst you may deuise an infamous Libell or letter against D. Bridges or D. Bancroft for his Sermon preached at Paules crosse a Sermon worthie to be read and printed in the heart of the hearer in deed or against the writer of this Remonstrance to solace your selues withall for the meane time as all heretikes and schismatikes are woont to countenance their cause I doe assure my selfe that none of you dare to vndertake a publique disputation in the schooles if those in authoritie shall thinke it fit or to goe forward with this scholasticall exercise of Syllogising To second your irrefragable vndoubted and thrise learned demonstrations the next newes I looke to heare from you will be no refutation of this my booke but a little booke or Libel full fraught with calumnious slander neuerthelesse per bonam famam per infamiam by good report and bad report we must proceed on to the iustification of a good cause And if like dastards and recreants you will not deale with handie-strokes of Syllogisme let it be an euident signe that you are readie to runne away and for euer after relinquish your so disputable and demonstrable a cause * ⎠* Chap. I. A REMONSTRANCE TO THE SVPPOSED DEMONSTRATION OF PRETENDED DISCIPLINE The maine Conclusion or Assertion of the first Chapter THE worde of God describeth perfectly vnto vs that fourme of gouerning the Church which is lawfull Demonstration and the officers which are to execute the same from the which no Christian Church ought to swarue This is the maine conclusion of these monstrous Demonstrations Remonstrance not to be worthied the name of Demonstrations forasmuch as I haue learned Medium est causa maioris extremi in omni demonstratione Arist poster li. 1. which neuer falleth out in any of these Demonstrations neither are the partes or propositions correspondent to a Demonstration whereof none can be admitted but such which are Termini pares reciprocabiles Nor so much as principles or groundes immediate of themselues needing proofe of no other infallibly true or first true before all other or foorth with knowne and to be acknowledged true or finally Causae conclusionis But which rather be probable Syllogismes and those but very fewe or indeede Paralogismes meere Sophismes to make a brawle against receiued trueth In this conclusion if by gouerning were vnderstoode the direction in faith and manners of euery true member of the Church it were simply to be granted But these men as by their whole discourses appeareth vnderstand thereby the gouernment for the externall pollicie and orders of the whole Church in generall also of euery greater part thereof as the Church of an whole nation or prouince and of euery seuerall congregation If therefore by these wordes describeth perfectly he and they meane that all the whole frame and forme of this gouernment and the officers to execute the same with their names adiuncts offices and seuerall authorities particularly and specifically are either expressed or by the word of God immediatly and necessarily may be concluded both we denie it and themselues nowe at length though with much a doe confesse it not to be true Yet T. C. the Bel-weather of this bande out of whose forge the Demonstrationer hath taken vp almost all his stuffe on trust in his bookes did at first so vnderstand it For because Christ his faithfulnes in Gods house is likened to that of Moses who described euery pinne almost of the Tabernacle therefore he concludeth that not the least particular point tending to externall Church gouernment is omitted vndescribed in Gods word As if either he had some Scripture that others haue not seene or he onely were cleare sighted And to this very purpose serue all the arguments of this first Chapter Insomuch as Barrowe who professeth that he holdeth nothing which he hath not gathered out of those and like mens bookes still thinketh that none external orders or lawes at al are lawful now to be set down for the Church because Christ hath set downe sufficient in particular But the other sorte somewhat wiser being taught by their schoole-mistresse experience that vpon triall made euery expedient particular in external gouernment could not be so proued haue by their Champion Martine the Malepart In his second booke restrained this whole controuersie to a narrower issue saying that the Officers and their offices are so described and both these forsooth at least are essentiall And the whole fraternitie as I heare either in person or representatiuely being out of all coastes of this land synodically assembled haue nowe impounded The holy discipline which they holde to be described in the worde to be essentiall eternall and immutable vnto the fourth part of one sheete of paper but their Synodicall discipline which already vpon the first licking is seuen times as great as the other they thinke in some respects to be necessarie and eternall in other respects to be mutable but howe much of it lookes the one way and howe much the other way they haue not yet reueiled Therefore thus I reason by retortion vpon their owne positions Ba Al forme of gouerning the church which is lawful with the officers to execute it is perfectly described in the worde of God ro Your Synodicall forme of gouerning and the officers to execute it by your owne position is not perfectly described in the worde of God ergo co It is not a lawfull forme of gouerning the Church c. The 1. Demonstration These things I write vnto thee c. 1. Timot. 3.14.15 v. Demonstration Out of this place I reason thus That ende which S. Paul respected in writing vnto Timothie the holy Ghost directeth all Ministers
bad harper harpeth alwayes on one string My answere is as vnto the 7. 8. Demonstrations 1. Cap. Or I answere with concession because it is nothing to the question and therefore your fight is with no body but with the foolish feare of your owne shadowe Or I answere by distinction thus Direct warrantie is either immediate from the voyce of God or which is mediate by direct consequencie gathered out of the worde of God Such is any calling in the Church of England by what name soeuer it be named deducible from the worde of God The 3. Demonstration If Corah Dathan and Abyram were punished hauing no warrant of that they tooke in hand Demonstration then is euery calling generally warranted out of the worde and particularly layde vpon the parties But the first is true Ergo the second Nomb. 16. This is well concluded Your consequence of the Maior no way followeth Remonstrance except the want of warrantize had bene the only cause of their punishment You confesse a trueth before you are aware in the Minor your owne feters shall serue for your owne feete If Corah Dathan and Abyram were swallowed vp aliue for insurrection against Moses and Aaron the high Priest Retortion for ambitious seeking to be all high Priestes not contented with the ministerie of the Tabernacle as inferiour Leuites and for scismatical assertion Is not the whole Congregation holy Hij omnes sunt sancti are not all these holy that is sanctified to the Lord Num. 16.3 both intruding into the office and obtruding to the people the office of the high Priest at that time Must not the scismatikes of our time whose contradiction is the same perish also in the same contradiction Pares culpa pares paena like fault like punishment without the mercie of God But the Antecedent is true Ergo the consequent is together true For these doe the very same against those who are set ouer them in the Lorde Plus satis arrogatis vobis Inter eos est Iehoua quare ergo effertis vos super Congregationem Iehouae You take too much vpon you amongst them is the Lord Is not all the Congregation holy Why doe you aduance your selues aboue the Congregation of the Lorde Are not all holy all Ministers alike and ministeries Is not the laytie a holy presbyterie to the Lord Are not the Congregation interessed in the gouernment of the Church Nemo de vobis vnus excellat Omnem exuperantiam virtutis oderunt Tusc quest lib. 5. Euery of vs is as good as other These be as the voyces of old scismatikes were The 4. Demonstration That which giueth cōfort in trouble must haue a warrāt out of Gods word Demonstration But euery lawfull calling doeth so Ergo. The Argument lyeth at Cowards warde Remonstrance We denie not but that all lawful callings haue warrant of Gods worde but not particularly or totidem verbis For where findeth he a Master of an Hospitall a Printer a Cartwright a Salte-peter man a shirte-maker a gunne-maker an Attorney in all Scripture Ante diem clauso componet vesper Olimpo From morning vnto night Stans pede in vno you may demonstrate thus The 5. Demonstration That which helpeth forwarde in godlinesse Demonstration must haue a warrant out of Gods worde But euery lawfull calling helpeth forward in godlines Ergo. These and such other like Arguments Remonstrance are like to the Islands in Archipelago 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 lying in the middle way to be surprised of any man or as the prouince of Iewry and Syria where of Tullie saith Iudaei et Syri ad seruitutem nati De prouin consul bound to serue all turnes and pay tribute vnto all who will make them tributarie Wastewordes of the Demonstrator They confesse all this to bee true Demonstration but denie the Archbyshop and LL. B B. c. to be distinct Ministers which we holde to be distinguished and by sixe Demonstrations doe prooue it first thus The 1. Demonstration Those things which haue diuerse efficient causes Demonstration are diuerse Our L L. B B. and the Ministers of the worde haue diuerse efficient causes the one the ordinance of God the other of humane policie Ergo. Wee holde their ministerie of the worde to be as others Remonstrance and there in equall but for order and policie of the Church a Superioritie in gouernement censures and ordinations in which respect they are B B. So much Beza and Caluin also confesse in effect speaking of Patriarkes Archbyshops and Byshops in the Primatiue Church To the Maior This must be true in naturall or in artificiall and ciuill things or true in neither For some things haue diuerse efficients and are the same things other are diuerse thinges and haue the same efficient Ergo. It is true in neither The braine of an Anabaptist and the braine of an asse haue one efficient and yet are diuerse things Sol et homo generant hominem Sol et asinus generant asinum vnlesse you make an Anabaptist the foale of an asse The soule of Nouatus and the soule of T.C. haue but one creator and yet are indiuiduated and diuers things vnlesse you holde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 transmigration into T.C. of Nouatus soule Againe if wee might beleeue your selues Moses made the Sanedrim of olde or authorised it Christ in your eldership made or authorised the Sanedrim of the new according to your selues These are diuerse efficients yet but one thing The egge of this byrds laying and of another byrds hatching hath diuers efficients but yet is one chicke Diuersities of efficient church wrights and reformers of the state belike must needes breede diuersitie of reformation of the state and diuerse communion bookes as fell out within two yeeres experience thrise diuersely your Presbyteries your Classies and your Synodes seuerally may make or ordeine ministers and these be diuerse assemblies ergo their ministeries be diuers that so diuersly be ordeined and called of them The Minor cannot passe it is passing naught viz. our BB. and the ministers haue diuerse efficients as themselues doe confesse Who euer of vs did confesse the BB. to be a mere humane constitution Therefore let this lie As for the worde and title of Lorde in which limitation they thinke a great aduantage lurketh it is but per accidens as they haue Baronries If it were otherwise why not titles of honour due to them if honour bee due The efficient of BB. in respect they are ministers is God as BB. properlie is also God Omnis potestas a Deo For admit all their authoritie or names were not specifically expressed shall not their power therefore be of God els where be the foure Syndicts of Geneuaes authoritie For there is no such office named particularly in scripture See the 304. page of the defence of the answere to the admonition whose plaine distinction is That great is the oddes to be ordeyned of
Demonstration If no particular Congregation haue priuiledge greater giuen then other Demonstrat then must eyther no Eldershippe be at all or else in eurie Congregation But euerie Congregation hath like priuiledge because it is a perfect bodie Ergo To the Assumption No Congregation hath anie priuiledge for Eldership Remonstrance and yet is a bodie perfect of it selfe To adde anie thing to the perfection of Arte is curiositie to the perfection of nature monstruousnes as for the Charter of the priuiledge of your Eldership you haue not shewed it Let our Syllogisme be this If euery Congregation haue like priuiledge then euery one or none must haue Doctors But euery one neede not but where it may be as you say Ergo none must haue a Doctor or else your owne collection is foolish The 4. Demonstration The same warrant that is for an Eldershippe in one place is the warrant to haue it in all Demonstrat for GOD tyeth it not to Churches in cities but to the Churche But there is a warrant to haue in some Ergo in all To the Maior You say the verie trueth Remonstrance for your Consistoriall Eldership is warranted in no place as for pastorall Eldershippe it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 expounde it howe you will for towneship or citie although Paul and Barnabas ordeyned them Actes 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through Iconium Lystra c. for the commoditie of the Church To the Minor The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your fansied Eldership appeareth in no place If any man be contentious for it as for a diuine institution the Churches of God haue receiued no such custome for 1550. yeres together The Assertion That the Eldership is perpetuall Demonstration The 1. Demonstration If the causes why Christ would haue an Eldership be perpetual then is the thing it selfe perpetuall but the causes vz. to gouerne the Church by the rules of the worde Ecclesiastically are perpetuall Ergo. The Antecedent is true if all the causes be perpetuall Remonstrance but here is mention onely of the finall cause But a man may atteyne well to the ende of gouernment Ecclesiasticall and peace of conscience without the complot of this Eldership Ergo all this is but a strong imagination Why man cannot the Church be gouerned by the rules of the worde vnder no kind of persons gouernment but of such an Eldership The 2. Demonstration If Christ bee the authour and left it by his Apostles to be established Demonstration then it is perpetuall But Christ is the Authout in that hee gaue giftes for the particular members and the whole bodie thereof So it appeareth 1. Cor. 12.12 And the Apostles not going beyonde their commission established it Ergo it is perpetuall To the Maior It is not necessarily true Remonstrance for Christ by his spirite was the Authour of that which the Apostles established for absteining from blood and strangled yet was not this perpetuall To the Minor The very place which you meane but quote wrong vz. 1. Cor. 12.12 and afore neither prooueth anie giftes giuen to the particular members of any such eldership nor to the whole bodie of it the place is as the body is one and hath many members al the members of that one body being many is but one body so Christ What doeth this proue any giftes giuen either to the particular members or whole bodie of your Eldership The giftes that a litle afore are reckoned to be seuerally giuen to seueral persons are The worde of wisedome the worde of knowledge faith giftes of healing the working of great or miraculous workes prophesie discerning of spirites diuersitie of tongues and interpretation of tongues If enery of these be a seuerall gift for a seueral officer in your Elderships then in steede of three vz. Doctors Pastors and Elders for I think you now haue learned of the French discipline to exclude Deacons you haue nine officers in al. To runne ouer therfore but those officers you are hitherto agreed on which of these seuerall giftes shall the pastour haue which the Doctour and which the Elders He that hath the worde of wisedome shall he not haue the worde of knowledge nor faith and he that hath faith the last of these three shall he be knowne by it as by a specificall difference from the rest and haue neither of the other and hee that hath knowledge shall he neither haue wisedome nor faith Here you had neede to haue Ariadnes threede to winde your selues out of this Labyrinth and how will ye accommodate the other sixe giftes and to whom the most whereof if not all are long agone ceassed I knowe you cannot shew an ocular demonstration of these sixe giftes remaining and atchieued not by industry but without all ordinary meanes as it was then in any Eldership or Synode in the world nor euer shal be able if you liue out Methuselah his yeeres You see then the grosse absurdities that followe your appropriating and tying of seuerall giftes to your seuerall and peculiar officers yet is it almost the onely reason in substance which with a little diuersitie of dressing you serue out in twentie seuerall dishes And you may with confusion of faces acknowledge your licentious boldenesse in abusing the Scriptures both here and elsewhere to make shewe of seruing your turnes Which ariseth hereof that you bring not your senses to the scripture but draw the Scripture that is not of priuate interpretation vnto your owne fantasticall senses and vnderstandings The 3. Demonstration Whatsoeuer is commanded and neuer repealed the Church must receiue that as perpetuall But such is the gouernment of the Church by the Eldership Demonstration in that S. Paul mentioneth them and are to be esteemed as commandements of the Lord. 1. Cor. 14.37 Ergo To the Maior One instance vndoeth this to absteine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from strangled Remonstrance was a commandement neuer repealed yet not binding vs nor perpetuall To the Minor That is not the meaning of S. Paul Whosoeuer is a Prophet or spirituall let him acknowledge that the things which I write vnto you are the Lords commandements what for a presbytery or eldership where is any such commandement in S. Paul if it be we embrace it as the Lords The wordes alleadged are spoken of those Prophesyings in course by any Christian to whom it was reueiled which was an vse of the primitiue Church yet not retained now in any the reformed Churches and is condemned euen by our Consistorials in the Barrowists a broode of their owne hatching At Geneua Caluin once erected such prophesyings at which a learned Phisition woulde often speake against the course of the doctrine of Predestination in that sort as Caluin taught it whereupon Caluin caused that Exercise to be strangled in his swadling clothes so that a more pregnant place could not be brought to proue some commaundements of Christ vnto the first Church to be such as cannot be
and be idle and busiebodies if they may haue maintenance This Eldership is no vocation by the worde of God and therefore burdensome to the Church But if the Church be not bound to mainteine them then they are none of those Elders that are worthie double honour 1. Tim. 5. For by double honour liberall mainteinance is there chiefly vnderstood as the reasons annexed and circumstances of that place doe import The 4. obiection of the Demonstrator It bringeth in a newe Popedome or tyrannie in the Church Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator It is blasphemie to terme the gouernment so for shall wee not yeelde our obedience to the Scepter of Christ Nay it is a name full of blasphemie Remōstrance with reply and the mysterie of Antichrist to call the bable of their Eldership as they describe it by the name of the Scepter of our blessed king and Sauiour Iesu Christ and to challenge to themselues the obedience due to our Lorde Christ Nay if many Antichrists be worse then one and many tyrants more intoilerable then one then this to tyrannize in the conscience by many Elderdomes and Popedomes is Mysterium iniquitatis which doeth aduaunce against Christ Hath Christ no Scepter to gouerne his Church by but in their hands Doe all denie Christ to be their king that refuse or haue not your Elderships With what face can you deny Barrowes conclusions that yeelde him these premisses to conclude by The 5. Obiection of the Demonstrator It is a kinde of Donatisme to challenge such authoritie ouer Princes Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator It is flatterie to suffer Princes to doe what they list This is Gualters obiection an enemie to discipline Gualter is no enemie to discipline Remonstrance with reply but to Anabaptisticall discipline As for this discipline in vse it is no flatterie of Princes but if your Assertion might sway we should haue flat rebellion and insurrection against al Christian Kings especially against the sacred Maiestie of our most gracious and glorious Prince What can the Papists imagine of greater waight to be holden from them then the Scepter kingdom of Christ as you do And you are as tickle headed and handed being discontented as they are The 6. Obiection of the Demonstrator It taketh away the Princes authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator No more then it did from Dauid in his time not so much as the Bishops do now for the Prince requireth but this to see the Church well ordered which the Eldership alloweth and craueth There was no such Eldership in Dauids time Remonstrance with reply Ergo no comparison betweene this and that time But this impeacheth her Maiesties Prerogatiue and preeminence giuen by all the Peeres Lords Spirituall Lords Temporall the Commons in the lower house Conuocation house to set vp a Consistorie ouer all causes and persons yea ouer herselfe For these men dreame that all sheaues must bow to their sheaues which God forbid for they are a quintessence of Eldership aboue Sunne and moone aboue the Imperial firmament It is a slander to say not so much as Bishops for Bishops haue none authoritie of iurisdiction but deriued from the Prince vnto whose regall authoritie of the crowne all commaunding superioritie is annexed But you claime other and farre greater as elsewhere is shewed The 7. obiection of the Demonstrator It transformeth the state of the Cōmon wealth into a meere popularitie Demonstrat and wil alter this gouernment Answere of the Demonstrator No for what damage commeth by this discipline to the Magistracie from the office of the Prince to the Headboroughes Because the Prince must gouerne after their direction Remonstrance with reply as the learned discourse doth say The Prince shal be but a feeling member not an head or supreme gouernour of the Church Princes must cast downe their Crownes and submit their Scepters to the scepter of the Presbyterie nay which is more odious as T.C. doth apply must licke vp the dust of their feete that is of the Church which is the Presbyterie Because her Maiestie must not onely be directed by the regencie of the Eldership but vpon their iudgements corrected also They will make lawes call Synodes haue the last appellation and many such like as hath bene afore touched Finally because her Maiestie hath neither dispositiue not cōsultatiue voice she may not be priuie what the Presbyterie doeth by her owne presence or by sending her Attorney with many moe as they shall heare The 8. Obiection of the Demonstrator It will send contention and partialitie in iudgement Demonstrat Answere of the Demonstrator Where can it be greater then in the Bishops kingdome Yes forsooth greatest of al in the Tetrarches Popedom Remonstrance with reply But this is but to answer with recriminatiō or reaccusing one another Verily as for the Bishops ministerie it is no kingdome neither your kingdom or tetrarchie any ministery They are gouerned by lawes in al their proceedings but you wil haue selfe wil and law of your owne minde blasphemously father it vpon scripture and Gods word and so you do all most absurd and vnequal decrees of your elderships as in many particulars where they reigne is shewed The 9. obiection of the Demonstrator It wil be contemned and so good order neglected Demonstrat Answere Nay God wil procure awe to it It is the Bishops pompe and officers which deserue contempt But before in the 4. it was tyrannie Remonstrance with Reply here contemptible these are contrary God will not honour those that honour not him or who with a newe inuention glorifie themselues If the Bishops are in contempt you are the men that contemne Fastum Platonis maiore fastu As for tyrannie and contempt they are seated well in you For Psal 12. When Impij circumquaque obambulant quando exaltantur vilitas filijs hominum the worde in Hebrew is Zuloth When your Elders shal be exalted and ride vpon the Cherubims when the many or baser sort doe tyrannize it will be a contemptuous tyrannie in deede The 10. obiection of the Demonstrator All alterations be dangerous Demonstration Answere of the Demonstrator Neuer from Antichrist to Gods obedience this might be Stephen Gardiners Argument All alterations are dangerous Remonstrance with reply where thinges are religiously established as with vs. As for Stephen Gardiner hee made arguments De vera obedientia which you nor T.C.I.P. nor any Papist who alike with you impugne supremacie of Princes in causes Ecclesiasticall can euer answere De mortuis nil nisi bonum pascitur in viuis liuor post fata quiescit So it should be The Assertion The Church must be ruled by the rules of Gods worde c. and not by the cursed and monstrous Canon lawe Demonstration The 1. Demonstration All gouernours are to execute their authoritie by the same warrant from which they haue it But the gouernours of the Church
Rabbyn of you all Alas the Iesuites desire no better match then to haue a Puritane come to reason with them they are so farre to seeke in the controuersies I am assured more sounde arguments may be drawen out of that Lawe against the Pope and Poperie then three of the best of our Puritanes can bring out of all their readings Gentiletus a Protestant lawyer hath confuted the Tridentine Council euen out of the Decrees of Gratian. The 8. Demonstration That which destroyeth the Church Demonstra cannot be good to rule But the Canon lawe destroyeth it for it crosseth euery faithfull Minister in discharge of his duetie Ergo. Hinc illae lachrymae Remonstrance Lex non est posita iustis there is no lawe but for lawlesse men If all the olde Canons and course of law were gone then you were safe ynough you and your Elders would be Popes in your owne Parishes And is in deede the Church destroyed when any of you be crossed in your maner of discharging your Ministerie The Church I perceiue with you hath many significations The 9. Demonstration That which hath bread more traiterous Papists in England Demonstrat then the Seminaries of Rhemes and Rome cannot be good but the Canon law c. Ergo. This is a seditious and franticke Paradoxe Remonstrance well you shall haue somewhat for the making your credite shal be in the next Demonstration none shall beleeue you Belike they were conuerted to Poperie by the studie of the Canon lawe euen as like as if a man woulde say that your discipline is able to conuert from Poperie to the Gospel The 10. Demonstration That which nourisheth the hope of Antichrist to come in againe Demonstrat cannot be good But the Canon lawe for it keepeth the cages of these vncleane birds as Archbishops Lord bishops Arches Cathedral Churches Ergo. This birde would sing in a Bridewell cage Remonstr if he be not caged in another maner of cage or deplumed rather for libelling against Iudgement seates and Colleges of the Prophets O shamelesse follie as if Poperie were come in it coulde not bring with it the whole Popes lawe though it were abrogated in the meane time The 11. Demonstration That which all the Churches haue cast off as vnfit Demonstrat cannot be good But all the Churches that haue forsaken the Pope haue cast it off Ergo. The Maior tendeth to Donatisme or Brownists Antichristianitie Remonstr To the Minor An instance is The reformed Churches of Germanie Denmarke and Sweden that retaine much of it and so our Church But they will denie ours perhaps to bee a Church reformed What follie were it where a case happeneth with a iust equall decision to determine the contrarie because hee was an ill man vnder whose authoritie it was first published Though Rich. 3. was an vsurping tyraunt his lawes were very good and are yet reteyned and so are the sounde iudgements that were giuen in times past by Papistes Iudges and badde men The 12. Demonstration We our selues mislike it as appeareth by a statute of Edwarde the 6. Demonstration We doe not mislike but abridge Remonstrance an abridgement or exception vnto part is not misliking of the whole By an abridgement no more was intended then to haue it perfectly knowen what was profitable to be reteined as not contrary to the prerogatiue Royall nor lawes of the land O golden Demonstrations of a leaden Demonstrator The fifteenth Chapter Assertion GOuernours of the Church may not meddle but in matters Ecclesiasticall onely as vocation abdication Demonstration in deciding of controuersies in doctrine and maners as farre as appertaineth to the conscience and censures of the Church This Assertion is laid out by him Remonstrance not so much to signifie what apperteineth to Church gouernours as what not apperteineth viz. ciuill causes which he fancieth that Bishops doe exercise and to claime as appertayning vnto their functions By abdication hee meaneth deposition of Church officers the worde signifieth properly a voluntarie putting away of an office but hee thinketh it is abdication when it is taken away against a mans will such a fault may be forgiuen to a poore smatterer in learning when he taketh it vp at a more learned mans hand per fidem implicitam and he only to be blamed that thus serued him on trust The French disciplines both and their practise together with the booke written in confirmation of that discipline do attribute to euery consistorie or Eldership authoritie and power to make lawes ecclesiasticall This part of power our men neuer reach at plainely in direct termes because it were likely to be enuious perhaps would proue eyther too hotte or to heauie vnto them And it is wisely me thinketh considered of them besides for when all other lawes for Church gouernment are once taken away then shall their power be more absolute if none in their steade be set downe but all left to their owne wils And seeing they haue left to themselues deciding of all controuersies in doctrine and manners as farre as appertaineth to the conscience there is still measure large ynough in their owne handes to supplie this want at the full for this one limme of authoritie will carry all causes though most ciuill in their nature and practise out of all Courtes in the land vnto their Elderships First the Chancerie that decideth matters of controuersie by conscience is clearely dammed vp and may goe picke paigles And are any other ciuill Courtes in better case no verely for can any controuersie be betwixt man and man but it appertaineth to conscience to giue the matter contended for vnto him to whō of right it is due You may not therefore maruaile hereafter if you chaunce to heare a man excommunicated by them among whom this discipline reigneth for refusing to cancell a band if they thinke it vnconscionable or denying to acquitte a debte though it were with the creditors vndoing This forsooth is no ciuill cause or matter at the cōmon law though Littleton would depose twētie times that it were By vocation I thinke they meane the first nomination of a man vnto the people for an ecclesiasticall office They leaue out election because they would seeme more popular then the French discipline that giueth to the Eldershippe both vocation and election but by that time the cardes bee dealt out you shall see all comes to one passe for whom they nominate he is thereby chosen if the people do not gainesay it and if they all doe there must also a cause be both alleadged and allowed by the Eldershippe before he can be reiected They mention not here ordination by imposition of hands vpō the elected by the Eldershippe but we see by other places that they haue an eye vnto it not to loose it I will aske therefore all the learned of that side where by any pregnant place they finde ordination of Ministers of the worde with imposition of
faultes if the persons did not like you I knowe your disposition where I dwell The 4. Demonstration That which is contrary to naturall affection and worketh the trembling of the very heart Demonstration may not be done but in extremitie So is excommunication Ergo. Why are not you afraid in your owne cause sith many of your crue stand excommunicate Remonstrance and yet like prophane Esau or Lucian the dogge make a ieste of it if you esteeme it not because Bishops doe inflict it we will and may vpon better ground contemne yours that lay elders determine whensoeuer you set vp shoppe The 2. Assertion of the Demonstration Excommunication must be done by the Elders Demonstration not by one man The 1. Demonstration That which Christ commaunded to bee done by the Church may not be done by one man but Christ commaunded so 18. Mat. 15. Ergo. What force is in your Maior Remonstrance The Church must pray for princes Ergo no one man may Christ commaunded at one time the Apostles to preach Ergo all must preach together and no one of them To the Minor This is most absurde for then hee commaunded to be done and ouerdone that is both done and vndone viz. both by the Presbyterie and then by the whole Congregation for so you teache If in those wordes Tell the Church the Church is the Eldership then the rest of the Congregation hath not any warrant to giue consent or to deale in it which else-where you require For when the Church that Christ committed it vnto haue once determined the matter what haue those to doe further that were not meant nor thought of by him And if hee that tels the Eldershippe any thing telles it to the Church what neede any moe bee acquainted with that belonges not to them For if they be of the Church they knowe it already Et qui certus est amplius non debet certiorari if they be not then let them pacifie themselues but if the whole Congregation be theremeant then hath not the Eldershippe therein authoritie giuen by that place And if the Church be the Eldershippe then the one is the other idem numero conuertuntur so that he that is not of the Eldership is none of the Church To auoide these absurdities they will say the Eldershippe is called the Church because it hath herein the authoritie of the Church This is strange Shall they bee the Church it selfe that haue herein the Churches authoritie then he is a king that in some thing hath the kings authoritie Well let it goe Those that with vs doe excommunicate haue the Churches authoritie also and let them shewe a reason out of the worde of God why the Church may not giue her authoritie to one aswell as to many If this bee one of your essentiall pointes that the Church cannot giue it to one for shame finde some Scripture for it If you say that the Church being a collectiue must needes bee more then one true but yet one or a fewe may haue the authoritie of many committed to them as one man may bee Syndic or Legate for a whole common weale If it cannot bee represented but by a number then two may serue else shewe by howe many and both of these by Scripture or confesse your gouernement not to be grounded on Scripture And when such authoritie is giuen to many shew that any thing may bee done except euery of them agree for if you say as you practise that the most voyces ouercome the fewer shewe Scripture for that and howe the odde voyce that makes the greater number hath such a power as to make that to bee the determination of the Church which otherwise were not so And if in such case one odde voice perhaps of a very odde fellowe may haue such force why may not a Byshops voyce bee of as great force in this matter where the Church committes it to him That by this place the power generall of excommunication is not established may thus appeare For if this be the very warrant and cōmission that it hath then may none excōmunication proceede in any other matter then vpon priuate offences originally and onely by the same degrees that there bee propounded otherwise the commission were violated That an Eldershippe as is fancied shoulde haue that power here giuen to them cannot be entended for if Christ had ordeyned them afore this time then their authorities whatsoeuer were no doubt giuen withall vnto them but wee reade no such thing The pollicie of the Iewish Synagogue had still his continuance and Christ had not yet setled the Church which hee was in gathering That by these wordes at this time it was erected it coulde not be for neither were the officers afore ordeyned of which it consisteth viz. of Elderly doctor and Pastor vndoctorly and vnpastorally Elder and of deacons nor yet were they here ordeyned For the Apostles could neuer out of this single worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Church haue picked this great varietie and distinction of officers and their authoritie which they had neuer heard of afore But Christ speaketh hereof to them as of a thing knowen whereunto in like case resort might bee had But if it were here appointed consisting of Christ and his Apostles then was Christes headshippe of the Church taken from him and hee ranged with his Apostles as his collegues in the Eldershippe Then also must they either say that Christ was not perpetuall president in such eldership but as it fell to his lotte or choise as they now practise in Synodes and conference albeit the Pastor in their Elderships be the President perpetuall or they must haue a perpetuall president in all their Synodicall assemblies to be conformable to this being the best and first It will also hereof followe if your Elders mind to be successors of the Apostles in an eldership here they must be ministers of the worde and Sacraments as the Apostles and all the first Elders were Then also cannot your Eldership haue any other parts of authoritie then Christ at this their institution here bestowed vpon them as namely you must abandon ordinations depositions and other gouernment Lastly if he ment to erect an office or authoritie that afore was not the wordes would haue bene praeceptiue and dispositiue for such purpose not imperatiue commaunding onely a course to be holden before such a tribunall as was not afore erected or heard of for it woulde thus or in some like forme haue beene conceiued let such and such Church gouernours bee erected to whome you may alwayes tell it If therefore to auoyde these inconueniences it wil be said that he made allusion to the Iewish Sanhedrim or College of 72. in vse with them and wel knowen to them with insinuation that as the Iewes had so hee would haue established in his Church which should after be gathered of the Iewes and Gentiles Besides that it is likely the name of Sanhedrim would haue