hee shall thereby incurre the high displeasure of these Rabbies which he shall be sure to haue sticking vpon him vntill they can waite him as good a turne yet I say againe vvhat is left to the magistrat The iniurie is confessed afore There shall need no triall of the fact where so many witnesses may be vsed to prooue his confession afore if now he should denie it All that the magistrat hath to do is to set down what recompense I shall haue for my sayd iniurie and to tax my charges If you say nay hee will heare the cause againe Indeed I confesse he had need to do so But so both I and the partie should be doubly charged and troubled Besides that course would turne to the vtter discredit of the presbyteries that their dealings fitting in the seat of Christ should come to be scanned by those that are but humane ordinations For so some of them by colour of the Apostles words do debase magistracie And therefore peraduenture they will thinke it meet that vpon certificat from them the magistrats should so prōceed to adiudge me a recompense and to rate mine expenses without any further adoo Some such thing it is though not in this very case which the ministers of the low countries haue desired Thus a very graue man borne amongst them reporteth of this matter Ministri nullam habent coërcendi potestatem nec habere volunt Tantùm cupiunt vt magistratus puniant eos qui ipsorum mandatis parere detrectarent Quod nunquam sunt facturi nisi prius de tota causa legitime recognouerint actoribus aut accusatoribus ministris consistorij Quod seniores ministri alienū à suo ministerio esse similiter iudicant In haec absurd a inciderunt propter reiectam episcoporum authoritatē c. The ministers there haue no povver to correct any man neither vvill they haue any Only they desire of the magistrats to punish such as should refuse to obey their cōmandements vvhervnto the magistrats vvil neuer yeeld except they may take notice of the vvhole cause againe by ordinarie course of lavv the ministers of the consistories making thēselues either plaintifs or accusers VVhich the elders and ministers do iudge not to be agreeable to their ministerie And they are fallen into these absurdities he had also before named some other through their reiecting of the authoritie of bishops You see their desire in this case and it may in mine opinion bee stretched to the former And then as I haue shewed through scandales offences consciences and I know not what pretences challenges and counterfait prerogatiues the iurisdiction of their elderships will be so large as the ciuile magistrats iudges and lawyers shall not need to be greatly troubled These things with all the premisses of this chapter considered I dare say you long to know by what authoritie they challenge to deale in all these so many and so infinite causes And to satisfie your longing the learned discourser shall first speake his mind Our sauiour Christ sayth he in the vvord church alludeth to the Ievves Sanedrim vvhich had the hearing and determining of all difficult matters amongst them the like vvhereof he vvilled to be established in his church for administration of gouernment What you will say but weightie matters How come they now to al matters euen to Robin-hood maigames and may poles Ye say truly but Cartvvright will supply this defect For indeed this discourser shot many bowes too short This vvas the policie and discipline of the Ievves and of the sinagogue saith he from vvhence our sauiour tooke this and translated it vnto this church that vvhen any man had done any thing that they held for a fault that then the same vvas punished and censured by the elders of the church And M. Beza Quod ius fuit Synagogae sub lege cur non valeat in ecclesia sub euangelio authore Christo Math. 18.17 non video I see not why the same authoritie that the Synagogue had vnder the lawe shoulde not continue now in the Church vnder the Gospell according to Christs institution in the chapter mentioned Indeede if Christ haue ordained any such matter it is good reason it should bee so But because they will needs bring vs to the Iewes let vs see what prettie tales they will tell vs of those times They say and it is true that the Priests were the Lawyers of the land And would they be so now If the same pollicie continue why should they not They tell vs further that in ciuill causes when there did arise anie doubt in law amongst the Iudges the decision thereof did belong to the Priests iurisdiction If that also were a good pollicie and that it be continued by Christ then I see no reason why it should not againe be now established in all places They say that the 17. of Deuteronomie from the beginning of the eight verse vnto the ende of the thirteenth doth intreat of the ecclesiasticall Senate where it is said that iudgements betweene bloud and bloud between plea and plea c. did belong to the priestes and that it was death for any man not to rest in his determination If this pollicie be in like manner continued who then in the common-wealth but the ecclesiasticall Elderships Matters of bloud and of all pleas Who would not take those points to be more ciuil causes It is true But they tell vs that when the priests dealt in any of those causes they dealt not in them ciuilly but ecclesiastically It will trouble a man to find out their sleights But one example to this purpose you shall haue When such a doubt did rise saith Beza Non de facto Not of the facte for that was meere ciuill but Deiure what the law was in such a case then the Ecclesiasticall Eldership determined thereof and that doone the ciuill Iudge gaue sentence of the facte accordingly As though there should be two Courts in Westminster hall one for matters of fact in ciuill and criminall causes consisting of temporall Iudges and another for matters of Conscience for all sortes of offences and for matters of lawe consisting of ecclesiasticall persons some Pastors and Doctors assisted in solemn maner with their church Aldermen Suppose then I pray you that you are by chaunce in Westminster hall such a difficult matter in lawe as is pretended commeth before the Iudges of some fact whereupon downe they come from their seats and go to the Elders May it please your Maisterships there is such a cause before vs which seemeth to be a foule matter if it fall out as the bill or declaration is laid what is the law in this point The Elders consult together resolue them The Iudges giue them a legge returne to their places the cause falleth out according to the complaint and so they pronounce the sentence as the Aldermen taught them Suppose I say all these things
their followers and that all men both Princes and others would be content to submitte their neckes vnder that yoke Which were to make Princes saith Erastus trulie quasi carniâ—ices as it were the executioners onely of their pleasures quemadmâ—dunâ— in Papatu factum videmus as we see it practised in the Papacy and in truth is nothing els but that I may vse their phrases to banish one Pope and admitte of thousands or to deliuer their Scepters from the tyrannie of the old Pope and to subiect them to the tyranny of these new Popes euen to excommunication as Cartwright with his English crue doe affirme and so consequently to depriuation or death as Buchanan the Scottishe Consistorian teacheth My purpose is only in this place to make it knowne from whence our brotherhood haue furnished themselues with their inuectiues against the authoritye of Princes in causes ecclesiasticall and that whatsoeuer they pretend in words yet they are of the same minde that Viretus is if they durst so plainly vtter it Or if they be not let them confes in print that the premisses cited out of his sayde dialogue are false and then for that pointe let them be credited But that I am perswaded they will neuer doe I am sure if they should that besides their opposition with Geneua they should also recant their owne assertions which directly exclude the ciuile magistrates from dealing in ecclesiasticall causes As for example The whole gouernment of the Church is to be committed to Ministers Elders Deacons The church is now to the worldes end to haue no other offices in it but of pastors Doctors Elders and Deacons They which are no Elders of the Church haue nothing to doe in the gouernment of the same They deuide the Church wherein anye Magistrate King or Emperor is a member into those which are to gouerne vz. Pastors Doctors and Elders and into such as are to obey vz. magistrates of all sortes the people Indeed Beza will haue the ciuile magistrate one of the Church-officers But Cartwright will not consent for his part to yeald them so much For saith he as Pastors cannot bee officers of the common wealth no more can the magistrate bee called properlye a church-officer And in truth what Beza graunteth it is in effect nothing sauing for a shew and to serue their own turnes forsooth vt tranquillitatem ecclesiae procurent â—t tueantur Their office is to procure and defend the peace of the Church whereas else where hee agreeth with Viretus yee may bee sure and in his Booke against Erastus peremptorily affirmeth That Princes haue no more to doe with matters of the Church then Ministers haue with the affayres of the common wealth Which by their doctrine generallie is none at all But saide I hee agreeth with Viretus I might saie rather with Cardinall Allen and Saunders if he bee the author of the Booke intituled Vindicie contra Tyrannos as it was reported For there hee saith that if anie Prince shall challenge to himselfe both Tributes that is authoritie aswell in Ecclesiasticall causes as ciuile as by the circumstances of the place it is euident hee doth as if hee would like the old Giaunts scale heauen and surprise it and is guiltie of treason and doth thereby forfeite his fee that hee holdeth no lesse than a subiect or vassall shall that vsurpeth the kinges royaltyes and in this respect such kinges are very often depriued thereof much more iustlye then a vassall or subiecte maye bee insomuch as there is some proportion of comparison betwixte a vassall or subiect and his Lorde but betwixt God and the king betwixt a wretched man and the Almightie there can bee no proportion at all Furthermore Cartwright and some others with him do affirme that Kings and princes do holde their kingdomes and dominions vnder Christ as hee is the sonne of God onlye before all worldes coequall with the father and not as hee is mediator the heade and gouernor of the Church Whereuppon they doe first builde that all Kinges aswell heathen as Christian receiuing but one commission and equall authoritie immediately from God haue no more to doe with the Church the one sorte then the other as being in no respect deputed for Church officers vnder Christ otherwise then if they bee good Kinges to maintaine and defende it And secondlye that as God hath appoynted all Kinges and Ciuile Magistrates his immediate Lieutenants for the gouernment of the worlde in temporall causes so Christ as hee is mediator and gouernour of his Church hath his immediate officers to rule in the Church vnder him and those they saie are no other then Pastors Doctors and Elders to whom they ascribe as large authoritie in causes Ecclesiasticall And all this as I take it they haue learned of the Papists For whereas maister Harding saith that the office of a King in it selfe is all one euerie where not onely amongst the Christian Princes but also amonge the Heathen and thereuppon concludeth that a christian Prince hath no more to doe in the deciding of church-matters or in making ceremonies and orders for the Church then a Heathen Cartwright alloweth of his iudgement and doth expresly affirme that hee himselfe is of the same opinion professing his mislike of those who teach another right of a Christian and of a prophane magistrate Whereat Trauerse his scholler aymeth in like sorte when hee saith in effect that heathen princes being conuerted to the fayth receiue no further increase of theyr power whereby they maye deale in causes ecclesiasticall then they had before And lastly it is no lesse agreeable vnto their seconde assertion that whereas the Papists saye the Pope with his Cardinalls and Bishops are a true representation of the Catholicke Church of Christ vnder whom the Pope being Peters supposed Successor is the ministeriall and immediate chiefe gouernour of it here vppon earth now Cartwright and others doe affirme that euerye particular parish hauing such an Eldershippe in it as they desire is a liuelye patterne and representation of the whole and catholicke Church of Christe vnder whom saye they their Pastors Doctors and Elders are the ministeriall and immediate gouernours by right of euery such Catholicke parish-Church vppon earth And thus if I bee not deceiued that playnelye appeareth which was in the beginning of this Chapter propounded vz. that for all their protestations they derogate from Christian Princes and arrogate to their Elderships the supreame and immediate authority vnder Christ in causes ecclesiasticall CHAP. XXIII In the oppugning of Princes authoritye in causes Ecclesiasticall they ioyne with the Papists THere is nothing will lightlye anger our pretended Brotherhood more then if ti be tolde them that they denie in effect with the common aduersaries her Maisties lawefull stile and prerogatiue Royall in causes ecclesiasticall Oâ— saye they wee doe not wee are slaundered wee yealde vnto her Highnes
execute vvhatsoeuer they conclude be it good or bad vve say that if there be no lavvfull ministerie as in time of necessitie Dauid did eat the shevv bread vvhich vvas othervvise lavvfull for the priests only to eat of that then the Prince ought to set order and that vvhen there is a lavvfull ministerie if it shall agree of any vnlavvfull thing the Prince ought to stay it Surely you are very proper and right liberall sayers Doth not your admonisher affirme that if your platforme were once on foot all men must stand vnto the determinations of your maiesticall church officers that I may vse maister VVakes tearme except it should happen in some matter of faith they should make decrees against the vvord of God And I pray you if any such thing should happen how could the king reforme it or as you say stay it He iudgeth their sayd orders to be erronious and perceaueth the mischiefes that do depend vpon them but how shall he redresse and preuent them Shall he compell the authors of them to assemble themselues together againe and to retract and condemne all such their decrees They are of that humor as experience hath told vs that it is vnlikely they will be compelled to any thing No it were too great a disgrace for them to yeeld in any thing that once they haue broached were it good or bad but especially when it is decreed in any of their worshipfull meetings And besides if the king should presse them too far in such a matter he might find them peraduenture but very ticklish subiects Cartvvright to shuffle vp some blundering answer to these points sayth That if in such a case the church ministers should shevv themselues obstinate and vvould not be aduised by the Prince they should thereby prooue themselues to be an vnlavvfull ministerie that vpon such an occasion the Prince might remooue thē Remouethē How By any ordinarie authoritie which you do allow to the christian magistrats in causes ecclesiasticall But you haue told vs before your mind herein In effect that it must be done by an extraordinarie authoritie euen by the same right that Dauid did eat of the shew-bread which were it not in such a case of necessitie none but the Priests might in any wise eat of For otherwise as it is before mentioned where such a platforme is in execution as they seeke for the Prince hath not any thing to doe by their doctrine God knoweth either with placing or displacing of church ministers Or if Cartvvright will say that I wrest his words to the worst construction and that he meaneth plainely as purposing thereby to confirme for his part her maiesties ordinarie supreme authoritie in those maner of causes I am content he make the best of his owne words that he can whether he meant ordinarie or extraordinarie authoritie so that when he hath done he will stand vnto it But let him say what he is able yet he hath a woolfe by the eares and shall neuer be able so to shift his hands but that it will follow that both he and all the pastors doctors and elders that are combined with him are by his words both obstinate and vnlawfull ministers except he shall withdraw this part of his wall as being to weake to make such a separation from the papists as he pretendeth For notwithstanding that the present gouernment of the church of England is established and confirmed by a nationall synod with the generall cōsent of the whole land to be a most lawful godly forme of gouernment notwithstanding that her Maiestie doth so thinke of it and hath shewed herselfe many waies as by her acts of parlemēt her proclamatiōs her sundry speeches yea by the punishing imprisoning of some certaine persons vtterly to dislike of their pretended discipline as being in her princely iudgement a meere forgerie vaine conceit of busie restlesse heads cōtrary to the word of God and ancient practise of all the godly churches in the world for 1500 yeares all these things I say notwithstanding yet they haue rayled libelled raged against the said present gouernmēt They haue and do still neglect as well her maiesties setled iudgment of the vnlawfulnesse of their decreed platforme as also her lawes her pleasure and many commandements that they should desist hereafter from that their erronious deuise and submit themselues quietly to the forme established Nay they are so far from yeelding in this point to any authoritie of her maiestie whether ordinarie or extraordinarie as that they haue attempted by very vnlawfull and seditious means to aduance their purposes against her highnesse will and do plainly giue it out that they wil not desist they will not hold their peace they will haue their desires though they be driuen to vndertake such means for that end as will make their hearts to ake who are their cheese impugners Stand now to your words maister Cartvvright if you meant plainly vz. If the ministerie shall agree of any vnlavvfull thing the prince ought to stay it and then are not all the packe of you concluded by your said answer to be obstinat persons and a false ministerie If you haue any refuge in the world it is this that whatsoeuer the said nationall councell the learned mens opinions that do impugne you the lawes of this realme all the ancient churches and her maiestie relying vpon them whatsoeuer they altogether do thinke iudge to be lawfull you care not or you are sory for it but all that notwithstanding you are sure for that you haue decreed amōgst your selues vz. that you haue not therein erred and therefore they must all beare with you though you rest your selues vpon the truth of your own decrees giue no place either to councel law prince fathers learned men or any other authoritie whatsoeuer that maketh against you And will not H.N. and Barovv will not al hereticks schismaticks say as much where is then the princes authoritie you spake of For staying such kind of proceeding what course shall he take These ministers as I sayd conclude vpon their owne deuises The king considereth of them and findeth them vnlawfull but they denie it what shall hee do Your refuge Cartvvright is euerie Heretickes refuge If her Maiestie with all the reasons mentioned cannot stay you and your sect let neuer any king or ciuile magistrat looke by any authoritie which you do giue vnto them in causes ecclesiasticall to stay the fancies of any such fellowes But the substance of all their deuises is nothing but pretences of things that are not And agreeable therevnto is this second part of Cartvvrights wall of the difference betweene him and the Papists who in effect for ought I see are as franke to Christian Princes euen in this point as either he or his fellowes Princes extraordinarily sayth Harding haue laudably intermedled vvith Religion as iudges and rulers of spirituall causes Good Christian Princes euer tooke into their
priest prophets if they be Christs substitutes as he is a prophet and kings by the same proprietie of speech if they be Christs immediat substitutes as he is a king And so I will go to the next chapter wherby you shall perceaue more particularly that call them as ye list they challenge authoritie like princes or rather popes to deale in many matters CAP. XXV In vvhat causes more particularly their elderships are to deale as they pretend YOu haue heard before of certaine of the seuerall and ioint offices of their counterfeit church-aldermen and likewise in the chapter how they challenge to themselues in their elderships the whole gouernment in all church-church-causes Now for that it might bee doubted how farre these words Church causes should extend they haue taken great paines to cleare their meaning in that behalfe and so haue vsed the matter to my vnderstanding as that they haue left out no one cause of what nature soeuer but that either directly or indirectly by hooke or crooke they haue brought it vnder their lee and with-within their compasse Read their sayings and then iudge as you see cause All crimes saith Knox that by the lavv of God deserue death deserue also excommunication as vvilfull murderers adulterers sorcerers vvitches coniurers charmers giuers of drinke to destroy children open blasphemers as denyers of the truth raylors against the Sacraments c. And hovv will they proceed in the execution of this censure vpon such manner of sinnes the same order doth specifie A superintendent must direct his letters of summons to the parish church where the offender dvvelleth or if the offender haue no certaine dvvelling place then to the chiefe tovvne and best reformed church in that diocesse vvhere the crime was committed appointing to the offender a certain day and place vvhen vvher he shal appeare before the superintendent his assessors to heare that crime tried as touching the truth of it and to ansvver for himselfe vvhy the sentence of excommunication should not be pronounced against him Here are then new summons and nevv citations Here is authoritie challēged not only to appoint such offices and to vse such iurisdiction but that which seemeth strāge to me indeed to trie a murderer and such like offendors as touching the very facts whether they committed them or not Do they impanall a iurie thinke you as we do in England for triall of the fact or are the elders of the consistorie iudges of the facts as they be of law That is not expressed But what if the partie vpon his summons appeare not That is no great matter Inquisition being taken of the crime he is the next Sunday to be excōmunicated not for his contempt in not appearing but for the very fact it selfe as in their form of excommunication in such cases it is expressed For the inquisition of the crime taken in his wilfull absence shall be a conuiction for his soule let his body escape the temporall magistrats hands as it may This is round dealing A man is condemned of murder and neuer heard for sitting but of one citation in a matter of life and death out goeth their excōmunication Call they this proceeding after the new discipline But to follow this case to the end It happeneth that this murderer is aftervvard pardoned by the magistrat but yet though hee professe repentance he may not be receaued till after fortie daies of triall and vntill hee hath satisfied the kinred and friends of the man that vvas slaine You may say what if they will not be satisfied That I warrant you is prouided for Then ought the church to put moderation to the vnreasonable in case the ciuile magistrat hath not so done before It is very well what the king will not they may Besides when it is sayd that the church ought to put such a moderation you must vnderstand that except the parties do agree to be so put out flieth againe as I suppose their foresaid slipperie censure Againe for all other offences that fall not vnder the ciuile svvord and yet are slanderous and offensiue to the church as fornication drunkennesse vsed svvearing curssed speaking chiding fighting bravvling and common contempt of the order of the church breaking of the sabboth vvāton vain vvords vncomly gestures negligēce in hearing of preaching or obtaining from the Lords table vvhen it is publikely ministred suspicion of auarice or of pride superfluitie or riotousnesse in cheare or raiment c. All these likewise do come by certaine degrees within the compasse of their censures all according to the word of God you must suppose or els you do them wrong Vnto these may be also further added ministers apparell vvomens lasciuious dissolute or too sumptuous attire either publikely or priuatly dauncing all games that bring losse stage-plaies of all sorts haunting of tauerns or tipling houses all inordinat liuers and all such like matters according to the discretion of the eldership cuirelinquenda sunt vvhervnto they are to be left From which discretion it proceeded as I take it that for some disorders committed in Edenburgh about a Robin-hood which the prouost and bailifs would haue staied the vvhole multitude vvere holden excommunicate But yet I haue not done with these causes They grow vpon me more and more And it is no reason that our owne brotherhood of England should be pretermitted They vz. the elderships shall suffer no levvd customs saith the admonitioner to remaine in their parishes either games or othervvise You know their meaning Maipoles Ales maigames moricedances all must downe How doth Robin-hood stick in their stomacks Besides all that haue liued vvith offence to the congregation although they haue suffered the punishment of the lavv for it yet because they offended therby both God the church they are vvithin the limits of the elderships to be censured by them The demōstrator is also very bountiful The office of the church gouernors saith he is to decide controuersies in doctrine and maners so far as pertaineth to conscience and the church censures That is if any shall refuse their said decision they will not indeed whip him or hang him those are ciuile punishments But so farre as the church-censures will reach haue at him Will he run to trouble his neighbour either to the Chancerie to the Kings-bench or cōmon pleas may haue both cōscience and iustice of his eldership at home Such a fellovv shal pay for it It is wisely therfore considered of the humble motioner where he telleth the lords of her maiesties priuie coūsaile that the church is to censure such a partie vvho is apparantly troublesome and contentious and vvithout reasonable cause and vpon meere vvill and stomacke doth vex molest his brother to trouble the countrie Apparātly troublesome that is apparantly to their conceits without reasonable cause vz. to be approued by thē And how can they know how reasonable the cause is except
their setting vppe of their short plat of discipline bannished the cittie The causes before mentioned of this their bannishment were giuen out thus in generall termes Tyranni esse voluerunt in liberam ciuitatem voluerunt nouum pontificatum reuocare They would haue beene tyrants ouer a free cittie they would haue recalled a new papacy And here beganne the Consistorian humor which raigneth nowe amongst the factious sorte in England to shew it selfe but yet in a more secrete sorte by their priuate letters one to an other Their fauourers and partakers whome they lefte behinde them at Geneua presently after their departure entered into faction and refused to receiue the communion with vnleauened bread as it had beene ordered they should doe by the said Synode at Lausanna The ministers that remained in the cittie after them were greatly disgraced For in that they continued their ministery there without the newe Discipline they were said to hold otiosam functionem an idle function The Senate of two hundred that expelled the said three preachers was termed by Caluin tumultuos a perditorum hominum factio a tumultuoas faction of rakehells castaway es Beza saith that in that councell the greater part ouercame the better But then by the way they were not all of them such manner of men as Caluin reporteth The chiefest magistrates of the cittie euen the Syndickes were termed factionum et discordiarum duces the ringleaders of factions and dissentions They were resembled to Nabucadnezar and the exiles to Daniell And generally they gaue it out against all their backe frendes that they went about to ouerthrowe the Church and that they had obdurated themselues against the Lord Iesus Christ. These and such like speaches you must thinke were giuen out then secretly but since they are published in printe for other ministers instructions which may hereafter receiue any checke about that kinde of discipline Hetherto for ought I finde the pretended discipline had no great successe I must therfore proceede on forward These three preachers being thus banished their friendes at Geneua were maruailous earnest to haue them thither againe Many letters were procured from certaine churches and learned men to the magistrates in that behalfe as you shall partly perceaue by diuerse epistles set out vnder the title or together with Caluins epistles Euery one likewise in the Cittie that held for the discipline did his best with the people But Maister Caluin was the man whom they all of them most desired for the rest being else where placed they cared not much Vnto these endeuours may be added some very wise courses taken by Maister Caluin in the time that he discontinued from Geneua Cardinall Sadolet hauing written to the Geneuians in dislike of the alteration both of their state and of the Romish religion admonishing them to returne to their olde byace Maister Caluin aunswered him and iustified as he thought meete their proceedinges therein to their very good contentment Also where some that of his owne friends had greatly laboured to discredite the ministers of that cittie which were lefte to the griefe of the magistrates endeuoured to haue brought them vtterly into contempt for executing their ministerie without the pretended Discipline c. Maister Caluin staied that course by writing vnto them that he doubted not but that their ministers deliuered vnto them the chiefe heads of Christian religion which were necessary to saluation and that also they ioyned thereunto the right vse of the Sacramentes And then saith he where those two pointes are performed illic substantia ministery viget there is the substance of the ministerie and a lawfull honour and obedience is to be giuen to that Ministery Lastly the mutinie mentioned which was about refusall to communicate with vnleauened bread he likewise appeased by perswading the authours of it that it was a matter of indifferencie for the which they ought not to disquiet the peace of the Church By which occasions together with the former sutes mentioned the Citie as I iudge hauing conceaued a better opinion of maister Caluin then they had before and supposing that if he came againe amongst them he would vse a great deale more mildnesse and moderation in his proceedinges then hee had earst done they were at the last contented after two yeares bannishment and more to recall him vnto them vz in the yeare 1541. Whilest his friendes were labouring for him as you haue heard he himselfe perceiuing that hee shoulde returne thither was still harping to his friendes vppon this string how he might haue the Citie so bound to the forme of Discipline which he had in his head as that afterwardes they might not when they list start from it And therefore as soone as he was come thither hee imployed his studie that way especially At the first offering of his paines to the Senate he told him that the Church there could not possibly continue except there were same certaine forme of Church gouernement established Whereupon the Senate ordered at his request that he and fiue other of the Ministers should conferre together about such a forme as they thought meet and that hauing so done they should offer the same to the consideration of the said Senate Here then you shall see the strength of maister Caluins wit He wisely saw that notwithstanding the Bishops ecclesiasticall authoritie had been vtterly disgraced and was thereupon reiected as being forsooth Popish and tyrannicall yet it was not good for the Church that the ministers should bate the citie one ace of an ecclesiasticall authoritie aequiualent at the least to that which their Bishops formerly had enioyed amongest them Howbeit he well perceiued withall that for the bringing of this matter about there must be verie good pollicie and circumspection vsed or else that it would be a thing impossible to bring a people hauing gotten their libertie into the like or a worse seruitude then they were in before His plot therefore as I take it was as followeth He laboured to perswade the people and the Magistrates that as there was a ciuile Senate for the gouernement of the Citie and the territories thereof in ciuile causes so by the word of God there should be an ecclesiasticall Senate for the gouernment of the same Citie and territories conteining aboue twentie parishes in causes ecclesiasticall And to this purpose he wanted not I warrant you very many probable reasons The persons that should beare authoritie in this Senate I nothing doubt but that he could haue been very well contented they should haue been all of them ministers euen as the ciuile gouernment did then wholly consist of ciuile persons But by reason of the great authoritie that the preachers had before intituled the ciuile magistrates vnto for the bannishment of their Bishop for their dealing in Church causes wherewithall they were in some sorte possessed hee very wisely considered with Farellus and Viretus that if they tooke that course
auncient estate of the Church of England vnto that newly deuised vnbrideled new-platforme of that demy-Parish of Geneua as I may well call it by way of comparison Now you must vnderstand that as our old English Geneuians did weare out or grew out of date So there did start vp a new broode in their places Cartwright and Trauers finding as it seemeth that itching and stirring humor in themselues which delighteth altogether in nouelties they would needes to Geneua Where in short time they were notably confirmed in that doctrine of contradiction returned home like the rest of our Geneuian Proselites ten times more wayward then they were before Which disposition of theirs being knowen to the Crue who then but these two after their seuerall returnes thence to bee the Champions successiuely for the Allobrogicall Discipline Since which times you shall finde little omitted of those Disciplinarian practises whereby this Lady their Mistris most indirectly and by all vnlawfull meanes hath beene elsewhere aduanced Their writings I speake nowe generally of all our English Factioners that haue written for this forgerie are full of bouldnes of Sophistications of falsifications of peruerse wrestings of seditious assertions and of manye such corruptions They haue sought by all indirect and vnlawfull meanes to allure the people vnto them and haue entred into a kind of an associatiō amongst thēselues Neither the Bishop of Geneua nor the Bishops in Scotland for ought I finde were euer more Turkifhly handled by Heathenish Libels and most vnchristian calumniations then our Bishops haue bene by diuers of these our Geneuating Passauantians By the like course also and in the same manner haue they dealt as far as possibly they durst with her most excellent Maiestie with the high Court of Parliament with the Lordes of her Highnes most honorable Priuy Councell and with the Iudges Lawes of the land The reformation of religion which almighty God hath wrought amongst vs by her Maiesties meanes some of them haue tearmed a deformation and all of them do disgrace and depraue it to their vttermost abilitie most lewdly and falsly Since the time they haue seen litle hope that her Maiestie the other states of this land would euer giue place to their vnstaied vanities and Phaetonicall presumptions they haue applied themselues to the practise of the inseparable Disciplinarian adiunct mentioned vz that when such states do refuse and will in no wise be perswaded to embrace and establish within theyr dominions the pretended Church-Discipline so liked of at Geneua the Ministers may draw the people vnto them by all maner of allurementes and so betwixt them set it vp themselues And in this course they haue already farre proceeded altogether as you may perceiue by the saide act of Parliament in Scotland Anno. 1584. after the same maner that the Ministers of Scotland did proceede They haue had theyr subscriptions their Synodes of diuerse sortes Classicall Prouinciall and Generall In those Synodes they haue practised Censures made lawes of their owne and disallowed some of those which the state of this realme hath made Vnto these and such like their priuate Conuenticles they haue appropriated the name of the Church and hauing separated themselues in a sorte from all those Christians that fauour not their mistresse they are become ioined into a new brotherhood of the Allobrogicall Discipline As there grew some occasion of feare amongst thē that these their Consistorial proceedings were likely to breake forth before they were ready and able by the strength of their assistance to stand to their tackling consultation was had and the matter ouerruled that none of that brotherhood if hee were apprehended should in any wise appeach another but vtterly refuse to detect such dealinges of the godly brethren as they themselues so greatly liked and were of opinion to be most honest and iust He that woulde take the paines to peruse the examinations of Cartwright and of some others in the Starre-chamber as any may easily do now that they are published should finde all these particulars and many more then heere I wil speake of to be most true And thus you see the Geneuian Discipline deuised by one man procured at the first by his comming great intreaty and friendship being then a simple and a poore Gentlewoman God knoweth fit peraduenture in the alteration of a Monarchy into a popular state to receaue some intertainment but as I say now you may plainly see what a Ladie she is growen to be through the instigations and practises of maister Caluin and Beza and howe and by what meanes she hath enlarged her Dominions and set her foot into this Iland of Britaine I could further adde hereunto how they haue not bin content to keepe themselues within the limites of Geneua Fraunce England and Scotland dealing as you haue heard but haue sought to take the verie same course in some other Countries likewise Maister Beza doubted not as hee saith omnes principes hortari to exhort all Princes to admit of the Sauoyan platforme And this you shall finde a thing ordinarie both in maister Caluins and maister Bezaes writings that as soone as they haue heard from time to time of any countrey that hath begunne to abolish Popery by and by they haue come vpon them with most earnest solicitations and gloses for the contracting of this their gallant Consistorian minion with them What letters haue been written into Germany Transiluania and Polonia wherein that point alwaies playeth a chiefe part One letter written by Beza into Polonia I cannot chuse but make mention of After diuerse attempts and sutes made in the behalfe of their Discipline to haue had her placed in Polonia one Sarnicius writ to Beza as it seemeth in this sorte timetur altera tyrannis now the Pope is bannished it is feared heere that this your platforme of Discipline woulde proue to be as tirannous a kinde of gouernement as euer the Popes was Whereunto he aunswereth Recte quidem It is well said sit ergo disciplinae regula verbum Dei Let the word of God be the rule of Discipline In effect as though he should haue said Let our platforme at Geneua be admitted of amongst you and then your Elders they will easily see what they may do and how farre they may proceed in causes by the word of God Or if they cannot send to Geneua as other Churches haue done and whilest I liue you shal haue such authenticall resolutions as you may be sure shall preuent all that danger And a litle before in the said letter Scis c. you know there is one and the selfe same authour of doctrine and Discipline meaning that of Geneua Quorsum igitur vnam verbi partem alter a repudiata reciperemus to what purpose therfore should we receaue one part of the word without the other To what purpose shall wee receiue the doctrine of our saluation by Iesus Christ except we receaue also the maner of the Discipline
called it ecclesia that is the Church Very well any thing will content me Howbeit for ought I know there was no cause why it might not haue pleased our sauiour Christ if he had conceiued so notable a liking of that Iewish platforme but that hee might also haue retayned the olde name and so haue made no alteration at all The authour of the booke of Discipline hauing as it should seeme some such like consideration in his head or what other I know not and thinking scorne as I gesse to runne to the Iewes Talmud for a name for this regiment is not afraid to dissent from Caluin Beza his olde tutor Cartwright and a number of other his good maisters here in saying obseruandum est vnà cum re ipsa nomen etiam a Iudaeis ad nos translatum esse It is heere to be obserued that together with the thing it selfe the very name also is translated vnto vs from the Iewes And what name is that Forsooth saith he Nomen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is congregation or church saepius apud Mosen certis delectis viris tribuitur qui a toâ—a congregatione adres obeundas designarentur is often giuen by Moses vnto a certaine number of chosen men that were to be appointed by the whole congregation to deale in sundry affaires So as by this fellowes saying Christ made no alteration at all when he said Dic ecclesiae tell the church but kept euen the olde name of it vz which it had before giuen vnto it by Moses How blinde then was Beza Cartwright and the rest that they could not finde this proper name of their soueraigntie in all the olde testament but were faine to flie to the Talmud But will Beza thinke you take this at his handes No I warrant you For saith he vocabulo ecclesiae significari ciuium conuentum nemo est qui ignoret c. Haebrei 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vocant Sed postea communis loquendi consuetudo fecit vt pro eoruÌ„ caetu accipiatur qui ChristuÌ„ profitentur There is no man ignorant that the word ecclesia doth signifie an assembly of Citizens The Hebrews do call it an assembly or company met together But afterward by custome it came to passe that it was taken for the assembly of them that do professe Christ. Which custome I hope it will be confessed did begin about Christes time and not in Moses time And then the disciplinarian Trauerser is very well serued for his sawcinesse in taking vpon him to proceed further then his sayd Maisters had giuen him in commission But howsoeuer these fellows will agree amongst themselues me thinketh a man might be bold by their place of Mathew to call their parochiall regiment by the name of the church For they all wil coÌ„fesse that Christ called it so And then it will follow by their grounds that euery parish or church must haue a newe church erected in it which new church must haue authoritie to command censure the old and so one Church must be ouer another Yea but saith Beza in effect we are rather to follow the apostles in this point then Christ. That which he called Church meaning the Synedrium that is Councell the apostles called presbyteriuÌ„ Eldership Quod Christus ecclesiam iam mutato Synagogae vel Synedrij nomine appellarat Paulus presbyterium nominauni That which Christ called the Church changing the name of Synagoge or Councell Paul called Eldership Againe quod Iudaei Synedrium Christiani presbyterium teste Apostolo vocarant That which the Iewes called Councel the Christians as the Apostle witnesseth called Eldership And why Beza would blush if he could not giue a reason for any thing Idcirco fortassis potius quam Synedrium ne qua pateret calumniandi occasio quasi Christiani statum publicum turbare de magistratuum authoritate ac iurisdictione quicquam ad se protrahere vellent The Apostles peraduenture called this regiment rather Eldership then Councell least there might be giuen thereby some occasion of slaundering as though the christians had purposed to haue troubled the publicke state and to haue taken to themselues some part of the Magistrates authoritie and iurisdiction Well and are we yet come to an issue how we may call this forme of gouernement Shall we tearme it the Eldership No surely if wee will follow some other reformed Churches which are so ofte commended vnto vs. Presbyterium vocare Consistorium apud nos mos est It is the maner and fashion with vs at Geneua saith Beza to call the Eldership a consistorie With whom agreeth I.B. the superintendent as it is thought of the Italian Church in London saying Although we haue in our churches the same order which the Apostles ordained yet we haue changed the name of Eldership do call it now by another name vz consistory And good reason It is so called at Geneua The Apostles call it Eldership but yet they dispensing with that point doe call it as they list Men no doubt of a soueraigne prerogatiue But to proceede It shoulde seeme that as these men haue chaunged the name of Eldership into Consistorie so haue others in some places done it into Synod Against both which sort Bannosius in his long and tedious disciplinarian discourse is verie bold to write his minde that it ought rather to be called Eldership then eyther Synode or consistory And that for two reasons vz first because some men do not distinguish sufficiently the assemblies of the christians from the Synodes of the Iewes and secondly because the Hierarchy of Rome doth call their presbyterium Eldership consistorium a consistory From all these as I suppose many of the French Churches or at the least that of Heidelberge doth dissent For thus Iunius lately a chief Ruler there writeth Concilium ecclesiae Senatumue appellamus quod Paulus presbyterium That which Paul called the Eldership wee call the councell of the churche or the Senate and so the Elders there are Senators Which names both of Senate and Senators sayth Beza Vt ciuilibus dignitatibus couuenientius calumniae obnoxium videtur studio quodam vetus purior ecclesia in occidente repudiasse as being proper to ciuile dignities and subiect to slaunder the olde purer churche in the West doth seeme of purpose to haue reiected And Bannosius affirmeth that the reason that moued those where hee was to call the Eldershippe a consistorie was quod nomen minus odiosum quam Senatus esset because it was a name lesse odious then the name of Senate You haue heard also before out of Beza that the Apostles themselues refused the name of Synedrium as being all one with Councell or Senate for the same respects But all this notwithstanding now that belike they thinke themselues in some places to haue laid such sufficient foundations for the coÌ„tinuance of their regiment as that it shall not be remoued what soeuer the Magistrates shall
holy Ghost and durst not with a safe conscience reprooue euerie sawcie Iacke with vs euerie ignoraunt dolt and euerie Bridewell rake-hell dare disdaine and condemne Tell them of Fathers and Councels they make but a mocke at it But as yet you know not the cause why I haue especially alleadged all these things out of Zanchius I will therefore now tell it you And it is this You haue heard how Beza and some others disliked of Zanchius confession and wherefore But now hee is come about and is grown to be fully of Zanchius iudgement if a man may beleeue him For wheras D. Sarauia had cited these places of Zanchius in the behalfe of Bishops and Archbishops M. Beza aunswered directly that neither he nor his brethren doe dissent therein from Zanchius à quo minimè certè dissentimus But I may not conceale this frō you that although Zanchius hath written so modestly of the callinges of Archbishops and Bishops as it hath beene shewed yet he rather fancied the new platform of Elderships which Beza omitteth not to put Sarauia in minde of when hauing yeelded to Zanchius his saide opinion of Bishops he addeth other places out of him for his allowance of the Eldership and then concludeth Si Zanchio assentiris qua de re contendimus If you agree with Zanchius where about contend wee Wherby I obserue into what a streight Beza is brought For notwithstanding any thing that hee hath written formerly against such Bishops Archbishops as professe the Gospell he can now bee content to reuoke it wholy so as they at Geneua may holde their Elderships He hath so farre ingaged his credit for that kind of gouernment as gladly he would preserue the reputation of it But he seeth I am perswaded it will not bee and that the equality they haue dreamed of tendeth to confusion therefore he beginneth to retire himself from that conceit as well as he may It is much his former proceedings considred that euer he could be brought to Zanchius moderation But yet hee commeth neerer vnto vs for although his Bishop of man found so small fauour with him before as that hee made him the roote of iniquitie and needs he must be plucked vp yet now he is much more fauorable vnto him if I vnderstande him and saith he calleth him the Bishop of man non simpliciter sed comparatè not simply but by way of comparison in respect he meaneth of his Bishop of God Now he acknowledgeth him to haue had place in the church euer since S. Marks time and that one was so chosen saith he certè reprehendi nec potest nec debet assuredly it neither can nor ought to be reprehended Nay hee affirmeth Iustis de causis fieri debuit That for iust causes it was necessarie Vt vnusquispiam e. presbyterio 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 esset permaneret That some one should be the Prelate ouer the presbyterie not for a day or an action as Cartwright saith but to remaine and continue allowing well of S. Ieromes reason why such a choise ought to bee made vz. In remedium schismatis for the remedy of schismes But one thing remaineth which passeth all the rest You shall see that for all the former stormes Beza could be very well content at the length if he might to be in effect an Archbishop Doctor Sarauia amongst diuers other proofes for the calling and authoritie of Bishops bringes an order out of the Apostles Canons so called because of their antiquitie First you shall see it and then also heare Maister Bezas iudgement for the matter of it The Bishoppes of euery nation ought to knowe who is the chiefe amongst them and to account him as it were their heade without whose allowance they ought to doe nothing of any moment but euery one those things onely which belong to his owne parish and the villages which are vnder it Neither let himselfe doe any thing without the knowledge of all For so there shall bee concord and God shall be glorified through our Lord in his holy spirit Thus far the Canon whereof Beza writeth in this sort There is here mention made of him that was the chiefe amongst his fellow Bishops who was afterward called the Archbishop And a little after speaking of the same Canon Quid aliud hic statuitur quam ordo ille quem in omnibus locis ecclesiis restitutum cupimus What els is here appointed than that order which wee desire should bee restored to the Churches in all places And is not the spirituall gouernement of Geneua as yet in her perfection Haue they rashly ouerthrown there such Offices of the Church as nowe they would gladly should be restored againe Those Churches that haue followed Bezas humor in the abolishing of their Bishops and Archbishops may they not iustly wish he had neuer beene borne It is an easie matter to ouerthrow but he and they all shall find it a most difficult thing to build vp againe Haue they pleaded so long for an aequalitie amongst all Ministers that now they can be content to be as it were the heades chiefe ouer the Bishops within the same countries Well the conclusion is this Either Beza writ not the Epistles mentioned to Duditius and Knox though hee hath set them out in his owne name or what hee writ in them against Bishops Archbishops he meant should bee onely extended against popish Bishops and Archbishops then Cartwright hath done him great iniurie in affirming that hee meant our Bishoppes or he is not the author of the treatise of the three sortes of Bishops albeit he calleth it Scriptum meum my discourse and saith as much in effect in his annotations vpon the Epistle to the Philippians or he supposeth in that treatise that there were popish Bishops and Archbishops before and at the time that the Councell of Nice was helde when in all the world there was neither popery nor popish Bishop or hee was ignoraunt that Field had translated the saide treatise into English and that it was published amongst the brethren here and held for currant doctrine or by his agreeing with Zanchius by his writing as hee doth to the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury by his allowing the choise of one Minister to haue a permanent office of primacie ouer the rest by his wishing the restitution of the orders mentioned in the Apostles Canons by these thinges and the rest specified being throughly considered or as I said hee hath now altered his opinion whatsoeuer hee hath written els where to the contrary or els you must take him as you find him For my part I will thinke the best that he hath been formerly abused very greatly by slaunderous reportes which caused him to write as he hath done But howsoeuer this course against Bishops hath been carried on hitherto amongst them God bee thanked for some amendment And lette vs take holde of that which they haue granted You may be
were giuen Omnibus veris presbyteris to all true Priests or Elders including in that number his vnpriestlie Eldermen Againe vpon these words of christ the keyes c. Hac metaphorica loquutione significatur oeconomi potestas Esa 22 22. qua funguntur omnes ministri in ecclesia dei vt apparet infra 18 18. By this metaphoricall speech is signified that power of Christ mentioned in Esay the key of the house of Dauid I will lay vppon his shoulders loe hee shall open and no man shall shut and hee shall shut and no man shall open which power all the Ministers in the Church of God doe enioye as it appeareth in Mathew Whatsoeuer ye binde in earth shall bee bound in heauen and whatsoeuer ye loose on earth shall bee loosed in heauen And vppon that place of Mathew the 18 Chapter and in manie other places by the Church and those binders and loosers there spoken of hee vnderstandeth his Eldership so consequently aswell his Aldermen as the Ministers of the worde Hee that with an open face to vse Cartwrightes terme doth affirme that either in Mathew the 16. 15. or in the place of Esay mentioned these vnpreaching Elders were ment or prefigured needeth not I warrant him at any time a vizard Indeed maister Cartwright is not of Bezaes mind herein For saith he in Math. 16. and in Ioh. 20. Christ vnder standeth that euery one of the ministers bindeth looseth by preaching but the wordes Math. 18.18 cannot bee drawen to the particular person of the minister Surelye you haue sponne a faire thredde For if your Aldermen be not aswell vnderstoode in the wordes of Christ Vnto thee I will giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen as in these Whatsoeuer yee binde on earth shall bee bound in heauen and whatsoeuer ye loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen It will fall out that they will haue no keies either to open or shut withall except peraduenture you will make your lockes with a springe and so indeed they maie shutte the dore but for openinge of it they maie blowe their nailes Heere you see Beza and Cartwright opposite and now you shall haue a fellow to impugne them both in a Theologicall position printed at Geneua sette out by Ant. Fayus and maintained there by one Danyell Niellius out of Math. 16.19 thus saith hee wee may reason To them onely the power of binding and loosing is giuen vnto whom the keyes of the kingdome of heauen are giuen for to haue binding and loosing is that same that it is to haue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen but vnto Peter the keyes were giuen and vnto them in whose name Peter aunswereth Christ demaunding whom the Iewes sayd hee was And because they were giuen ratione officij in regarde of his office it followeth that they were giuen to al qui in veritatis doctrina predicanda sunt ipsis successuri Who in preaching the doctrine of truth shall succeed them By these wordes then their disguised Aldermen must either haue assigned vnto them the same office that the Apostles had be made preachers or else they may put vp their pipes and goe shake their eares But yet more plainly we are aduertised in the same place from Geneua out of Iohn 20.23 We may also inferre after this sorte Christ after hee sent his Apostles as he was sent of the father he breathed on them the holy Ghost saying whose sinnes ye remit they shal be remitted whose sinnes ye retaine they shall be retayned To all them therefore and onely to them who are sent that authoritie is giuen But the Apostles onely are not sent For it is Christ who ascending into heauen gaue to his Church Pastors and Doctors and altogether to that end and for handling that worke Ephes. 4.11.13 Now ioyne both these inferences with that which Beza Cartwright haue before set downe and let him for mee beare the bell for a reconciler of contrarieties that is able in anie probable sorte to make anie one of them friendes with another or for euer hereafter to agree together And yet I know that they of Geneua can do much You must bring them very strange discords but they will make some harmonie of them Whereas the confessions of Bohemia of Augusta and the Apologie of the Church of England doe a cribe these censures wee speake of to the Priestes or Ministers of the word onely the Geneuians to make the world beleeue that in effect all the reformed Churches doe agree with that of theirs and with those other that weare her cullors will needes take vpon them in their annotations ioyned to the ende of their harmony to expouÌ„d the meaning of the said confessions how they must be rightly vnderstoode As for example it is committed to the ministers of the wordâ— saith the confession of Augusta excludere impios c. aâ—communione ecclesiae to exclude the wicked c. from the communioÌ„ of the church Nimirum that is to say affirme the Geneuians ex presbiterij legitimè congregati fententia c. according to the sentence of the Eldership lawfully assembled whereas it neuer as yet set vp any such Eldership Againe the said confession Hic necessario c. heere the Church must yeeld them due obedience meaning to the sayde ministers so excluding the wicked Nempe come in the Geneuians verbi ministris senioribus that is to say to the Ministers of the worde and to the Elders who were neuer allowed of by that confession to this purpose pretended The Apologie of the Church of England hauing shewed that the administration of the keyes doth onely belong to ministers of the worde and that Sacerdos that is the Bishop as I thinke hee meaneth for the execution of these censures is the iudge Sacerdos that is say the Geneuians vnus designatus ex pastorum collegio one chosen out of the Colledge of Pastors Deinde etiam intelligiturpraeire quum de censuris ecclesiasticis agitur legâ—tinam presbyterij cognitionem And furthermore also let it be vnderstoode when speache is of the ecclesiasticall censure that there goeth before a lawfull determination of the Eldership Whether the Apologie haue that meaning the meanest of any sense at all may iudge And thus they deale also with the Bohemian confession So that as I sayd to serue their purposes they can make ex quo libet quid libet of any thing what they list And by these examples ye may also safely learne what credite is to be giuen in this cause both to them and all the rest of that humour when they would seeme to alledge eyther scriptures Councels or Fathers for their most vnwarrantable and counterfeit Aldermen But if it were graunted vnto them for a moneth or two that their Eldermen should be ioyned with the ministers of the worde and haue an equall authoritie with them of binding and loosing would they content themselues therewithall It is
afterwardes to confer of the faultes or defects which are found in the young preacher and to tell him of them that he may amend them Certainely if these men had beene suffered to haue runne on foreward I feare they would haue runne madde What speculations be these All their Elders must be such men as Sainct Paul requireth a Bishop to be they must be able to preach in their Consistories and priuately And now you must haue in euery parish diuerse young men such as are meet for the exercises of Diuinity before they be admitted And where will they haue all these It was precisely saide of Maister Cartwright vz. thus in effect Neuer let that trouble you set vp the Eldership choose your Elders c. God wil make them fit for their charges vpon a soddain It had been verie prouidentlie handled of him if he had likewise taught the people that they should neuer haue sticked for anie cost which they were to bestow for the maintenance of the said Church-officers though they should bee twise as many because in bestowing their goods after that sorte God will make them rich and fill their tubbes their oile bottles their barns and their purses vpon the soddaine It was but a simple suite made by the author of the complaint of the comminalty that as the Papistes builte Seminaries to aduaunce the kingdome of the Diuell so there might be more Colledges and Seminaries of true Religion erected For now you see it is appointed that there shalbe such a Seminarie in euery parish And how the coiners of this deuise did euer grow into anie such conceite I cannot certainelie gesse except it bee because there is such a kinde of Schoole or Seminarie in Geneua Indeed when the State there had seazed vppon the Church-liuinges they erected a Schoole with some small allowance according as our English prouerbe runneth of taking away a goose and sticking down a feather The profit which they haue by the one exceedeth far the charge of the other If now our men could inuent such a way for euery parish peraduenture they might bee heard They talke indeede of a matter how to haue their Elderships with all the appertenannces thereunto belonging and yet not greatly to ouercharge any parishes But it is not after the fashion of Geneua There the Magistrates fleeced the church but they would haue all themselues the Bishops liuinges Cathedrall Churches Impropriations and rather then faile all the Abbaie landes and such thinges as did belong to all the rest of the houses of Religion If any parish in England should aske my counsell whether I thought they might safely enter into such a present charge for the maintenance of so many Pastor Doctor Elders Deacons Widdowes Ministers wiues their children and poor Students of Diuinities in hope that all the saide Church-liuings should be bestowed for their ease vpon such their Church officers I should say vnto them if I spake my conscience that I my selfe am far from anie such cogitation No no for al the outcries that the Disciplinarians make as in the next chapter you shall perceiue that all the Church-liuings might bee emploide to the maintenaunce of them and their Elderships well they may procure in some other age the further impouerishing of the Church but they shall be sure to be little the better for it CHAP. XXI Of their desire that those thinges which haue beene taken by Sacriledge from the Church might be restored againe to the maintenance of their Elderships EXperience they say is not a foolishe mistres but a mistres of fooles In the beginning of the late reformation of Religion in most places of Europe diuers notable mē did gretly ouershoote themselues It is Aristotles rule that one waie to come to the meane is to proceed ab extremo in extremum from one extremity to another And it may holde in the example by him alledged of making a crooked sticke to be straight but it is not to be allowed of in anie sort in the course of Diuinitie There it is reckned a point of great weaknes and so it is also with the prophane writers to run from one extremitie to another Manie examples I could bring of this weakenes as how in manie places men haue leapt from auricular confession to the contempt of all priuate conference with their Pastor from pharifaicall long praiers vppon a paire of beades three or foure times said ouer by tale at one time to little praier at all two or three words if so manie and farewel agreable to mens consciences euen as the Prouerb faith A short horse is soone curried from most gros and palpable Idolatrie and superstition vnto verie great securitie and prophanation Manie other such examples I might alledge of running from one mischiefe to another but there is none fitter then of the course which hath beene held in this verie matter whereof I intreate In times past men thought they could not giue too much to the church but now many suppose they cānot take too much frō the Church In times past there was so much giuen to the church that the k. of England was fain to make a lawe for the staie of so great liberality as Moses did when there was sufficient prouision made for the building of the temple but now mens harts are grown to such a contrary extremitie and are so far from incurring any danger in breaking that law for restraining thē as notwithstanding her most excellent M. hath cōtinued made her self very many notable laws that the church might keepe that which other men hath giuen her and for the binding of mē to pay their duties to the Church yet euerie man seeth how vnder pretence of concealements and by many other meanes the Church-goods are thirsted after and how the poore ministers are most pittifully defrauded in the paiment of such duties as do belong vnto them Insomuch by report as now in sondrie places if they shal but seek or sue to haue their own either they are greatlie misliked or presentlie are indited for common Barators or if they escape that out flieth a prohibition from one place a sequestration frō another and I know not what else nor from whence And the cause of these many other such extremities I doe not impute so much vnto the laitie as to sundrie men of the Clergie whose proceedings haue ben greatly by extremities It was an extremitie when Wickliffe affirmed that tithes appointed by God himselfe were merae eleemosynae meere almes But of all extremities that passeth where some now a daies would haue all taken from the Church that so Ministers might liue as they did in the Apostles times that is onelie vppon voluntarie contributions And this they thinke to be a part of the Apostolicall reformatiō which they seek for Wherunto I for my part might peraduenture yeelde if the laitie would be sworne before they tooke that from vs which we haue alreadie to deale with vs indeed for
not simply as he is the second person in Trinitie God aboue all but as he is the sonne of God manifested in the flesh Nay he goeth further and sayth that Christ hath all this authoritie not only as he is both God and man but that he hath it euen as he is man Cartvvright sayth that our sauiour Christ in the gouernment of kingdoms and common-vvealths and in the superioritie vvhich he hath ouer kings iudges hath no superior But if we shall beleeue the sayd motioner he is as directly contrarie vnto him in this assertion as he was in the former For sayth he our sauiour Christ as he is King of kings Lord of lords and the ruler and disposer of all kingdoms of the earth he hath receaued that authoritie of his father and so hath it 1. Cor. 15.24 If it shall be maruailed that the humble motioner peraduenture some swaine in respect of Cartvvright dare thus presume to incounter with such a Goliah especially hauing an whole armie no doubt that will and his vizgerent Trauers that dooth already assist him he may be easily satisfied in that Beza on the other side a man of farre greater account in Scotland than Cartvvright is in England hath promised and pawned his iudgement to backe the motioner in these points For hee is wholy of the motioners opinion Pater non nisi in persona filij manifestati in carne mundum regit God the Father sayth he doth not gouerne the vvorld but onely in the person of his sonne manifested in the flesh And agayne he alloweth of the Fathers where they hold that Proprie humanae naturae respectu dicitur datum esse filio potestatem coeli ac terrae vvhen it is sayd that povver is giuen to the sonne of heauen and earth it is spoken properly in respect of his humane nature receaued The world is gouerned only by Christ as he is manifested in the flesh therefore not onely as Cartvvright sayth as he is God The gouernment of the world is committed to the sonne of God as he is manifested in the flesh therfore contrary to Cartvvright he hath therein a superior Christ the sonne of God hath the gouernment of heauen and earth assigned vnto him properly in respect of his humane nature which he hath receaued and therefore not only as he is the sonne of God coequall with the Father as Cartvvright affirmeth So as whatsoeuer either Cartvvright Trauers or any of their followers shal enforce against the authoritie of christian princes in respect vz. that they with all the heathen gouernors do hold their scepters immediatly vnder christ as he is God only and not as he is their mediator it is all but as vntempered morter nothing fit for the purpose as other of their friends do iudge and as it seemeth by Beza in the place quoted might peraduēture if it were thorowly followed touch them neerer then they are aware of as men not fully persuaded of the most high and mighty prerogatiue of the person of Christ Iesus But let that go I am glad to heare that christian magistrats may haue somthing to do vnder Christ as he is their mediator And what if it may appeare that holding their gouernment vnder him as mediator they may haue some authoritie also vnder him as he is the head of the church I know that would come quite cam to Cartvvrights humor Neuerthelesse it is reason that men should be heard The humble motioner affirmeth that the Lord Iesus hath the regiment and povver ouer all principalities either in heauen or earth not simplie as hee is God but as he is Christ God and man and so the head of the church Let these places of scripture Ephesians 1. vers 20 21 22 23. and Colossians 1. vers 16 17 18 19 20. be effectually considered where there is speech of the great prerogatiue which Christ hath in the world as he is head of the church and they do wholy run that way In so much as Caluin writing vpon one of those epistles Ephes. 1. ver 23. sayth Nihil impedit quo minus de vniuersali gubernatione accipias There is no impediment vvby you may not vnderstand it of Christs vniuersall gouernment But more fitly to this purpose Beza where speaking of Christ as the head of the Church and of such officers as he hath appointed vnder him he accounteth the ciuile magistrat for one as before it hath bene noted But Snecanus is resolute and accounteth them aduersaries Anabaptists that shall denie it affirming that by rulers and gouernours Rom. 12. and 1. Cor. 12. where the Apostle speaketh of the body of Christ the ciuile magistrats are vnderstood as well as their Aldermen that they are to be reckoned inter officia ecclesiae nay inter dona ecclesiae Ephesi 4. though they be not there named and that it is therefore great rashnesse to exclude the ciuile authoritie out of the church Nisihanc simul tollere velint Except they meane to abolish it altogether Indeed I like this exception well and so I do also of his opinion For me thinketh that if kings and princes be ioint cōmissioners vnder Christ the head with their pastors doctors and aldermen assigned by the Apostle for the gouernment of the church they might be well content and reckon it no disparagement vnto the best of them that the prince their soueraigne should beare the chiefest and the greatest sway amongst them And all this maketh directly against Cartvvright euen as though men of purpose should haue studied to haue disgraced him which surely needeth not For if his own writings were narrowly looked into there is sufficient in thē to discipher him in his colours I meruaile what he meaneth when he writeth that a king was necessarie for the Israelits to shadow out to them the kingdome of Christ. Would he leaue his scholers at libertie to reason as the Apostle doth whē they should see their time Christ is now come in the flesh being our high priest hath performed the worke of our saluation therfore the priesthood of Aaron being but a shadow of Christs priesthood ought now to cease And euen so they when they list The kingdome of Christ is now come vnto vs therefore the hauing of a king being but a shadow of Christs kingdome ought now to cease Surely this commeth neare to Snecanus cōiecture vz. Nisihāc simul tollere velint But to omit surmises many such thinges els which I maruel at in him you shall find him so violent in this cause as rather then he will graunt that Christian magistrats may bee subordinate heads or cheefe gouernours in church affaires vnder Christ their sauiour within their own dominions he can be cōtent to reason as if he were a notorious S winkfeldian and meant to abolish all the ministers of the word as needlesse instruments vnder Christ for the building feeding and comforting of his church For thus he argueth
sibi persuasit papa diaboli vicarius The pastors themselues shall not be Christ's vicars as he is priest vvhich office notvvithstanding the pope the diuels vicar tooke falsely vpon him The pastors he saith shall not be Christs vicars as he is a priest And thē ther is no remedie They shal not How shal they hold then immediatly of him as he is a prophet That is it They are his substitutes or vicars saith hee onely as he is a prophet Did any man euer say so before Surely not to my remembrance Maister Fenner in his diuinitie perused by maister Cartvvright and allowed of at Geneua can find but two kinds of offices appertaining to Christ vz. his priesthood and his kingly office and therfore he maketh prophesie a part of his priesthood It is much what also to the same purpose and directly contrary to I. B. that the diuinitie grounds printed at Geneua do affirme by the mouth of one Abraham Henric where they say Pastorū ministeriū vt olim sacerdotum c. The dutie of pastors as in times past of the priests consisteth in three things teaching administring of the sacraments publicke praier So as either I.B. must be content that ministers may be Christs vicars as he is a priest or else I see not how he will bestow them You will say peraduēture that they may be Christs vice-gerēts as he is a king but that as I sayd he will not indure If any might be Christs vicars sayth he as he is a king the Apostles Prophets Euangelists Ministers and Doctors might be his vicars At ne hi quidem quia rex est dicendi sunt vicarij But they neither are to be called Christs vicars as he is a king Well some place they must haue there is no remedie I dare say you would smile if it should so fall out that all our consistorian ministers will needs bee Christs substitutes in that he is a king Surely I must tell you it proueth so For as touching I. B. they reckon him I perceaue but a simple politian Christs kingdome it hath bene truly vrged is not of this world it is plea good enough against our bishops but it holdeth not to impaire the estimation of our petit consistorian kings A distinction will helpe thē at a pinch Christs kingdome is not of this world but it ought to be in this world Do you not here desire to know what this kingdome is That I may not keepe you long in suspence it is the Geneuian Eldership and euen the very same kingdome saith our counterpoizer vvhere of Christ spake many times after his resurrection by the space of sortie daies as the Iesuits themseluss are compelled to confesse See the seducer Who cōpelled the Iesuits to say so would not a man haue thought that this place had bene vrged by some protestants against the papists for the ouerthrow of some especiall points of poperie wher vpon after much paines the Iesuits bad bene driuen in spight of their heads to admit of the interpretatiō mētioned But it is clean contrary the Iesuits do abuse this place of purpose in the behalfe of the Antichristian Romish form of church regimēt so doth the Counterpoizer following the Iesuits therin for the setting forth of their Geneuian papacy or Regalitie I could adde here a number of strange sayings whereof you shall here anon in some other chapters following concerning this new presbiteriall kingdome But now it is more pertinent to make the point I haue in hand more apparant vnto you Christ as a king prescribed the forme of ecclesiasticall gouernment saith Cartvvright not as a priest nor as a prophet but as a king With Cartvvright his scholler Dudlie Fenner doth agree in this point setteth downe the first part of his kingly administration to be about the building and continuance of the church by the officers appointed Eph. 4.11.12.13 Maister Beza also he runneth the same course how Christ being a king the head of the church doth administer his kingdome Per legitime vocatos pastores by pastors lavvfully called And Sonnius in like manner affirmeth that Christ doth execute his kingly office in the collectiō of the church by the ministerie of the word and sacraments and by the internall gouernment of his spirit and the external of the ministerie Here is indeed very roiall preferment for al the ministers of the word But I meruaile how the ruling elders do hold their authoritie They are neither priests nor prophets of likelihood then they must be little kings Wel then Christ is the king the presbiterie is his kingdome his immediat vice-gerents they are all of them What Surely by the due course of degrees which are acknowledged the pastors must be all of thē as it were emperors the doctors kings the elders dukes and the deacons lords of the treasurie c. And for the authoritie of euery such kingdom it must needs fal out to be very soueraign For if euery presbiterie as it is before noted be properly to be called the body of Christ and the true portraiture of the catholick church that euery one of thē is of equall authoritie now that the officers in them are Christs immediat vice-gerēts within their own kingdoms who shall controll any of their doings or whither should a man appeale if he found himselfe iniuried I remember maister Bezas saying That euery eldership is the tribunall seat of Christ. Which is all one almost with the assertion of some Romish parasits that the pope and Christ haue but one consistorie They tell vs of appellations from an eldership to a classis from a classis to a prouinciall synod from a prouincial synod to a nationall from a nationall vnto a generall councell But as the papists do make euery appellation from the pope to be as absurd and all one as if the appeale were made from Christ so must it necessarily follow to be as vntollerable to appeale from any consistorie it being as it hath bene affirmed the tribunall seat of Christ and the officers in it Christs immediat gouernors And because it is pretended that the regiment they speake of is in the best perfection at Geneua I would gladly know whither a man might appeale vpon occasion from that eldership there The churches of Bern or Zuricke haue no more to do with the church of Geneua they will say then Geneua hath to do with them or an eldership in Scotland with another of the low countries But I haue taried too long vpon this matter in collecting vpon their contrarie assertions Therefore to conclude I would wish all christian and godly magistrats that haue as yet in their hands the lawfull authoritie in church-church-causes which belongeth vnto them by the word of God to keepe it stil vntill at the least these disciplinarie deuisers be fully resolued whether we must account thē priest prophets or kings priests if they be Christs substitutes as he is a
all these thinges are ascribed I say by him vnto the exacting of the sayde subscription Howbeit yet Cartwright and his confederates could take vppon them in a seditious sort to require a secrete subscription amongst theyr fauourers vnto such a forme of newe Church gouernement as hee with the rest of that crue after many meetinges and alterations had deuised Wherein if theyr fancies might once take place subscriptions would not seeme so daintie as now they doe For there is subscription required vpon subscription No man is to bee chosen vnto anie ecclesiasticall office with them Nisi qui disciplinae subscripserit except he haue subscribed to theyr discipline Whosoeuer is to bee of any of their assemblyes eyther classicall prouinciall or nationall hee must first haue subscribed to their discipline And not thus content it is there also further ordred that none shalbe admitted to the holy Communion except they submit themselues vnto theyr discipline So as heereby euery temporall man of what calling soeuer is brought vnder theyr subiection Of likelyhood they thinke that no man can be a worthy receiuer of that holy Sacrament that is not well perswaded of their counterfait platform At Geneua whosoeuer is to be admitted into their schoole he must first subscribe to theyr discipline And not that onely but he is tyed to make a publike confession of that fayth wherein theyr forme of discipline is comprised for an Articlē And the like confession is also requyred of all them that will receyue the Communion there But what talke I of subscriptions or professions Maister Caluin when that discipline was first set vp procured a generall oath to bee taken throughout the Cittie for the approbation of it Whosoeuer also is made Minister there he sweareth to keepe theyr ecclesiasticall ordinances and consequently the discipline there practised All theyr Elders in like maner thogh one of them be one of the Syndicks doe take an oath to the same effect when they sweare to perfourme theyr office faythfully and to bring all thinges to the Consistorie which are worthie to bee brought before it As if the soueraigne heere should take an oath to bee a promoter But that which is moste of all they haue preuayled so much with the Magistrates and there is good cause why that it is made death for any man to lette or stoppe or cause to hinder the worde and seruice of God and his holy Gospell Within which compasse you maye bee sure theyr discipline is comprehended Our men as yet talke in their platforme but of subscriptions but if once they had gotten so much then forward must the rest or els they would bee angry How carelesly subscription is exacted in England I am ashamed to report Such is the retchlesnes of many of our Bishoppes on the one side and theyr desire to bee at ease and quietnes to thinke vppon their owne affayres and on the otherside such is the obstinacie and intollerable pride of that factious sorte as that betwixt both sides eyther subscription is not at all required or if it be the Bishops admit them so to quallifie it that it were better to bee omitted altogether If the best and the learnedst man in Christendome were in Geneua and shoulde oppose himselfe to any thing that the Church there holdeth if hee escaped with his life he might thanke God but hee shoulde bee sure not to continue as a Minister there There is no Church established in Christendome so remisse in this point as the Church of England For in effecte euery man vseth and refuseth what hee lifteth Some few of late haue beene restrained who had almost raysed the lande into an open sedition But else they followe theyr owne fancies and may not bee dealt withall forsooth for feare of disquietnes No man shall euer perswade mee but that the worde of God dooth giue as free libertie to the Church of England for the repressing of such scismaticks as eyther to Geneua or to any other Church whatsoeuer There is a kind of oath tearmed an oath ministred Ex officio which is and alwayes hath beene ministred in certayne causes in euery Court almost within the Realme but especially in the chiefest This kinde of oath beeing ministred also by her Maiesties Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical for these foar and thyrtie yeares is now especially greatly impugned and many exceptions are taken agaynst it As a man maye not bee driuen to confesse any thing against himselfe nor his godly brethren what you will charge vs with proue it You may not admit an accusation against an Elder vnder two or three witnesses If you haue witnesses why aske you vs And many such like obiections are made maintained Howbeit this opposition is altogether without consideration and by them that knowe not what they do For at Geneua this manner of oath is currant And I am sure the brotherhood heere would bee verie loth to oppose themselues against any point of doctrine that is allowed of there It fortuned vppon a time that certayne persons meeting together at one widdow Balthasars house in Geneua to be merrie did there daunce Maister Caluin hearing of this horrible sinne forsooth procured them all both dauncers and beholders to bee called before him and his Elders in the Consistorie When they appeared Caluin tooke vppon him to examine them and vsed as hee tearmeth them certaine holy obtestations that they should tell him truely whether there were any such dauncing or no where it was and who daunced c. They denied the matter wholy which he expresseth Apostlelike in these words Impudenter nobis Deo mentiti sunt They lyed impudently to God and vs Excandui I grewe pale with anger saith hee and inueighed eagerly against such theyr contempt of God But they continued in theyr contumacie Whereupon Caluin the matter as hee sayth being certainely knowne vnto him protested before God Poenas tantae perfidiae daturos That they should bee punished for such theyr falshood And because hee could not otherwise get the truth from them Censui vt iureiurando ad veri confessionem adigerentur I iudged it meete sayth hee that by oath they should bee compelled to confesse the truth It should seeme they made the like exceptions that our contumacious fellows do make And one Henriche a Minister as it seemeth who as I take it daunced not but did in some sorte by waye of supposition if any such dauncing had been take vppon him to defende it as not beeing a matter to keepe such a stirre about alleadged the verie same place that Cartwright did in the Consistorie at Paules and the which all the rest of that brotherhood doe commonly alleadge vz. Against an Elder receiue no accusation but vnder two or three witnesses But how was this allegation liked of Surely it was laughed at tearmed by Caluin Altercatio non illepida a pleasant ieast It seemeth also that besides the threatning speeches mentioned there
counsail Sixtly that it was Pope-like and vnlawfull to put in and put out of his absolute authority and lastly that it is dangerous to builde vppon the examples of those times And thus as a man in a maze he goeth backeward and foreward finding nothing to rest vppon but his own meere vngodly and slaunderous surmises A fit guide he is for giddie heads to follow Whereas for the antiquitye of Archbishops the first generall councell that was after the Apostles times vz. the Councell of Nice is alledged in these words Let the auncient custome be kept throughout Egipt Libia and Pentapolis that the Bishop of Alexandria may haue the gouernment of all these c. First saie they nothing was graunted by those words to the Bishop of Alexandria but onely to sit in the highest place at meetings which is most direct against the tenor of that Canon and is but a sottish shift grounded especiallie vppon this that Beza in his annotations vppon Iohn 1. doth expound this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which the Councell vseth to signifie dignitie or prerogatiue And secondly where it is said let the auncient custome preuaile The Bishops saith Cartwright comparing that decree with others made at that time and not before called that an ancient custome As if Ministers being assembled together to speak of a matter continued a score of Prouinciall Synodes and holden in the space of ten yeares should say in this sorte in suche and such thinges we will keepe our old custome Which they themselues might saie as well if they list concerning their bastardly Discipline that secretlie and seditiouslie eight or nine yeares since they haue agreed vppon after their fashion like dogges and cats in manie of their assemblies But if either he or anie other of the said Ministers should so saie they should certainelie in mine opinion speake verie foolishly and verie ignorauntlie And whether it is likelie that all the auncient Fathers assembled in that Councell would vse such a Sophistication in one of their Canons that iudge you or whether there was euer anie man before Cartwright so presumptuouslie impudent as to expound their words in this sort that I leaue to himselfe and his followers to consider of at their leasure But the Councell must speake according to his pleasure or otherwise marke how he commeth ouer it First he gibeth at these titles which are giuen vnto it to bee a notable and famous Councell secondlie he taketh vppon him to proue that the said Canon was not a good decree because as he saith some other decrees then made are not sound thirdly allowing the decision that was giuen by that Councell of the difference touching the perfect vnity of substance in Trinity For the rest he saith thus the most of the errors agreed vpon in that Councell were in the Discipline The most Belike there were some then in the Doctrine Those which he hath named for such great errors were not agreed vpon as matters of doctrine to my vnderstanding but were orders thoght meet in those daies for the pollicie of the Church I omit what reckning hath bin euer made of this Councell by al other Councels and fathers since that time Caluin is content to embrace the first foure generall Councels quantúm attinet ad fidei doctrinam so farre as they haue dealt with the doctrine of faith thogh Cartwright in the height of his pride do challenge the doctrine But euery man now will allow and disalow what he list The Arrians wil say as much of the doctrine as either Caluin or Cartwright do say of the discipline And so euerie Schismatick or Heretick look what serues their turne that is holie what they dislike that is erroneus About the choosing of Ministers much hath bin pretended for the peoples interest Against which conceit for the necessity of it amgst manie reasons prop oūded the Councell of Laodicea hath beene alledged where it was decreed about the yeare 338. that it ought not to bee permitted vnto the multitude to make election of them which should be preferred to the ministerie M. Caluin doth greatly allow of this canon which sheweth his liking of the peoples restraint and he affirmeth a sense vnto it as though that Coūcell had purposed to haue squared out the same platform for the erecting of Ministers that he hath deuised and established in Geneua Read the lawes of Geneua about the making of Ministers and you shall finde them whollie to agree with his words in this place Now if we can be content to receaue this exposition which Cartwright maketh being the verie marrow of Maister Caluins vz. the Canon meant not to haue the people secluded from the election but tendeth only to the directing of thē by the foreiudgement of the Elders he will bee content to let it passe without more adoe Otherwise notwithstanding Caluins commendation of it he can tell vs but vntrulie without anie warrant that this Canon is suspected whether it be a Bastard or no and that manie Councels are against it Maister Caluin confesseth that before the Councel of Nice there were first BB placed in their dioces aboue the Ministers then Archbishops ouer Bishops and lastlie in the saide Nicene Councell that there were Patriarchs appointed ouer Archbishops Now whereas the Councell of Antioch about some 15. yeares after saith It behoueth the Bishops in euery countrey to know their Metropolitane Bishop to haue care ouer the whole prouince propter quod for which cause all such as haue any busines must come to their Metropolitan city wherefore it pleaseth this Councell that he also excell in honor and that the other Bishops do nothing without him according to the ancient rule prescribed by our forefathers but those things only which pertaine to his own Dioces Cartwright deliuereth vs these gloses vpon it A Metropolitan Bishop saith he was nothing else but a Bishop of that place which was the chiefe citty of the Dioces or shire and as for the name it maketh no more difference betwixt Bishop and Bishop then when I say a Minister of London and a Minister of Newington Secondly there is no mentiō here that BB. are subiect to the Metropolitan Thirdly for the honor they should giue him I haue shewed it out of the Councel of Nice Fourthly the care for other Churches is but such as euery good Minister should haue of al churches Fiftlie the word Dioces should be parish For the Councell did not mean that the Bishops mentioned had Diocesses but euery one of them one town only hauing belonging vnto it certaine villages which did resort vnto his church as in Hitchin and diuers other places with vs. He should haue said Geneua but all this hee affirmeth most absurdly Besides this is his ordinary practise that because the word vsed amongest the Greeke writers ordinarily for a dioces doth likewise also signifie a parish he euer to falsifie such authors as are brought
against him doth traÌ„slate for dioces parish as in this place he doth it with a most brasen forehead The councell of Nice of Antioch of Carthage and of Sardis directly prouing that Bishops only had authority to excommunicate Cartwright giueth no other answere vnto them but this that Maister Caluin saith how Bishops in excommunicating after that manner dealt therein ambitiously Athanasius saith that Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria had the Churches of Pentapolis committed to his care Cartwright saith that care importeth not iurisdiction and so as to the Councell of Nice and of Antioch Cyprian saith the cause of heresies and schismes is this that Priests wil not obey their BB. Cartwright that answereth that is iu effect if his vnpreaching Aldermen will not obay their Pastors Epiphanius speaking of one Peter a Bishop of Alexandria saith this is the custome that the Bishop of Alexandria should haue the Ecclesiastiasticall gouernment of all Egipt Thebais Mariota Libia Ammonica Mariotes Pentapolis Whereupon Cartwright gloseth thus that is besides his own church he procured the good of other churches rouÌ„d about him Again Epiphanius of one Miletus an Archbishop that he was subiect or vnder the said Peter Archbishop of Alexandria Cartwright saith that euery Bishop of name was called an Archbishop And where it is said Miletus was vnder Peter that is vnder him in honour and not subiect vnto him saith Cartwright contrary to the manifest words and meaning of the author Theodoret Bishop of Cyprus saith of himself that he had the gouernment ouer 800. Churches Cartwright saith in effect that he lied that his words coÌ„cerning his care in gouerning those churches being spoken of himselfe want not suspition and that hee was condemned for writing against Cirill neuer mentioning how hee was wrongfully condemned in his absence and afterward restored I omit a number of their other shifts and presumptuous dealings with the fathers As of Epiphanius For him it is knowen of what authority he is c. it were better to laie his words against Aerius vpon some counterfaite and false Epiphanius to spare his credit Likewise of Ambrose Many errors corrupt expositions are found in his works in his exposition vpon the place to the Philippians a child may see how violently he forceth the Text. And also their reiecting of Councels by heaps c. wher they haue no coulor how they may peruert them But yet I may not let this escape my fingars that Cartwright whether for his owne glory or else that God would haue him to be the instrument of his owne shame is well content rather then he will want testimonies to encounter with the authority of Bishops to sort both himselfe all his followers in the number of those that euer since the Apostles times haue repined at that authority thereupon haue beene ouerruled by all the auncient Fâ—thers and Councels as busie bodies Schismaticks You shall heare his wordes and then iudge whether I haue mistaken them To what ende both in the Nicene councell and in many other holden more then two hundred yeares after are there found so manie canons for the acknowledging of the authority of one Metropolitane in euery Province for the honor which he should haue the name he should be called by for the place where hee should sit at their meetings for the bounds of their circuit Doe not all these declare that there were some which were ennemies to that authoritye c. To this I might adde his defence to Aerius and his confutation of Epiphanius not without some discredit to Sainct Augustine Lastlie whatsoeuer is saide or may be said hereafter out of all the auncient Fathers and Histories and out of all the generall Councels concerning the saide gouernment of the Church by Bishops Archbishops and Patriarches of their institution authority title circuites and prerogatiues Cartwright doth take vpon him most boldlie most falsly to prescribe vnto vs certain rules how we must vnderstaÌ„d them or otherwise there is not one of them that will be allowed of I blush in his behalfe I assure you to sette it downe and am ashamed that anie man bearing the name of a Christian shoulde deale so like an Impostor But this it is That it maye appeare saith he what the Fathers and Councelles doe mean when they giue more to the Bishop of anye one churche then to the Elder of the same church and that no man bee deceaued by the name of Gouernour or ruler ouer the rest to fancy any such authority and domination or Lordship as wee see vsed in our church it is to bee vnderstoode that amongest the Pastors Elders and Deacons of euery particular church and in the meetings and companies of the Ministers or Elders of diuerse churches there was one chosen by the voyces suffrages of them al or the most part which did propound the matters that were to be handled whether they were difficulties to be soluted or punishments censures to be decreed vppon those that had faulted or whether there were elections to be made or what other matter so euer occasion was giuen to intreate off the which also gathered the voyces reasons of those which had interest to speake in such causes which also did pronounce according to the number of the voyces which were giuen which was also the mouth of the rest to admonish or to comfort or to rebuke sharply such as were to receaue admonishment consolation or rebuke which in a worde did moderate that whole action which was done for that time they were assembled c. And must we thus vnderstande the Fathers generall Councels Hee might as truely saie that the present forme of our ecclesiasticall gouernment in England vnder her maiestie by Archbishops and Bishops is euen the very same maÌ„ner of church-gouernment that he his followers looke for the right platform of those Elderships which haue so mightely bewitched them Men that once haue passed the limits of modestie may afterwards saie write what they list The ancient Fathers haue deserued farre otherwise of the Church of Christ then that for the maintenaunce of such a forgery as the pretended form of discipline is they shold be vsed after any such manner I would wish all men that are of this proud presumptuous humor to peruse the books which S Augustine hath written against Iulianus the Pelagian There they shall find the very same contemptuous spirit in Iulianus that raigneth in theÌ„selues exalteth it selfe so greatly against the godly learned fathers as also on the other side they shall there see the fruites of Gods spirit vz. in what reuerend account verie high estimation S. Augustine had such worthy holy men by name as here you haue heard very contumeliously disgraced childishly neglected disdaynfully contemned and most proudlie reiected Ita intellexit Ambrosius ita Cyprianus ita Gregorius c. So Ambrose vnderstood such a place of the
scriptures So Cyprian so Gregory c. did carry some weight in S. Augustines opinion Those things which diuerse notable men haue alledged out of the auncient Fathers for the iustification of the present ecclesiasticall gouernment in the church of England ought not so lightly to bee regarded with euery princox What the Fathers haue written that agreeth not with our Phantasticall giddye headed fellowes pleasures they write it not of parciality either to grieue them or to gratifie vs but as trueth led theÌ„ Quod inuenerunt in ecclesia teneruÌ„t quod didiceruÌ„t docueruÌ„t quod a patribus acceperunt hoc filiis tradideruÌ„t that which they found in the church saith Augustine they held that which they had learned they taught that which they had receaued of theyr fathers they deliuered to theyr children Though Cartwright his companie do carrie so base a conceit of those times wherein the auncient fathers liued yet the Fathers themselues did not so thinke of theÌ„ Iulianus the heriticke did speake as it seemeth insuch a scornfull sorte of theÌ„ as our Sectaries do But S. Augustine laieth it to his reproch as an apparant argument of his great folly presumptioÌ„ thinking it a most absurd point for him so to vse them Vsque adeò permiscuit imis summa longus dies c. hath time so confounded all things saith Augustine is darknes growen to bee such light and is light it selfe turned into such darknes vt videant Pelagius Celestinus Iulianus et caeci sunt Hilarius Cpyrianus Ambrosius that Pelagius Celestinâ—s and Iulianus can see and Hilary Cyprian and Ambrose are become blind And surely I do not perceaue why I may not without offence applie the same wordes to those men in these daies which treade in the saide fellowes steppes concerning this their contempt pride Were there neuer learned men before you were taught the principles of the Geneua discipline was wisdom dead till you were borne Doe you know what was in the Apostles times better then they did who succeeded the Apostles were the auncient Fathers able to defende the greatest misteries of our saluation against so many pestilent heretiques and were they ignorant in the matters of the externall gouernment of the church Knew they the distinction of the three persons in the blessed Trinitie could they not find what difference Christ allowed off to be continued in his Church betwixt a Bishop and a priest Is the darknes which pride carieth with it groweÌ„ to be so light and is the light that shewed it selfe so many waies in the ancient fathers as in their singular learning great humilitie become such darknes that Cartwright Trauerse Fenner and such like but the shadows of learned men in respect should be thought so clearly sighted shall Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian Ambrose Hierome Chrysostome Augustine Gregory Hilarye and all the rest of those worthie men be reckoned blind Surely he is a bussard that thinketh so And therefore I will coÌ„clude this chapter with another saying of S. Augustines against such busie innouators as you are oportet vt populi christiani vestris prophanis nouitatibus anteponant c. It is meet that all christian people should preferre the auncient fathers before your nouelties eisque potius adherere quà m vobis rather sticke fast to their iudgements then to runne after your phansies CHAP. XXVIII Theyr dealing with all the new writers and many reformed churches when they make against them THis is a grounde layde downe by Cartwright that few men that are of any stayde or sounder iudgement in the scriptures and haue seene or read of the gouernment and order of other churches are against them in such matters as they haue broched vnto vs. And agreablie to this ground his answeres are framed when any thing is vrged against him out of anie of the new writers except Caluin and BeZa If either of them do happen to crosse him it is strange to see how he doubleth shifteth As for any other they are but a puffe with him hee careth not greatly howe hee handleth them Pellicane Bucer Bullinger Illyricus and Musculus affirming with all the auncient Fathers that Timothye was Bishop of Ephesus what then sayth Cartwright If they were for one a hundred they could not beare downe the Apostle As though they hadde euer ment it Luther expoundinge a place of Zacharie contrarie to his liking his exposition sayth Cartwright is out of season Musculus affirmeth that the places 20. of Sainct Mathew 10. of sainct Marke and 22. of sainct Luke vos autem non sic doe not condemne Superioritie but an ambitious desire and tyrannicall vsage of it but Caluin as learned as hee sayth Cartwright is of my iudgement Bucer holdeth that the sayde 20. of Mathew doth propound a generall rule to all magistrats and christians Where Cartwrights extenuating the authoritie of man braueth out Bucer with this that his iudgment hath counterpoise of other as learned Whereas Peter Martyr Bullinger and Gualter do bring diuerse reasons for the lawfull vse of the surplise and such other apparrell as is appointed with vs for Ministers Cartwright is so farre from being moued with their authoritie as that he aduentureth to confute their said reasons after his manner very sophistically affirming in effect but falsely that either they vnderstoode not auncient fathers alleadged by them for that purpose or that they peruerted their meaning Bishop Ridly and Maister Bucer approouing that where there are no preachers there should bee godly learned homilies read in those Churches Cartwright thus dismisseth Bishop Ridley being a partie in this cause hee ought to be no witnesse And for Maister Bucers wordes he saith they are not to be weighed insinuating that his booke concerning his iudgement in king Edwardes daies vppon the communion booke is counterfeited Againe of maister Bucer for his allowing of priuate baptisme and of the signe of the Crosse likewise of the ring in marriage and that the parties married should receiue the communion he saith Bucer hath other grosse absurdities to this authoritie I could oppose other men of as great authoritie sometimes Homer sleepeth his reasons are verie ridiculous verie slender and colde and sauour not of the learning and sharpnesse of the iudgement of maister Bucer Maister Fox in like sorte setting downe his full approbation of the present state ecclesiasticall that Archbishops should be in degree aboue Bishops and Bishops in degree aboue other Ministers and relying for this his iudgement partly vpon the scriptures and partly vppon the primatiue Church and concluding that this is to keepe an order duely and truely in the Church according to the true nature and definition of order by the authoritie of Augustine he is I say thus censured Maister Fox writing a storie doth take greater paine and looketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what time and by whome then howe iustly or vniustly how
before they haue it and doe shewe allready as much or more contempt of those Churches that dislike it and are as sawcy with them as any that I do know or heare of except it be their disciples Barrow and his companions It hath pleased that light headed cockbraine that presumed to write a petition of late as vnto her Maiestie and afterward like a seditious and vnduetiful person published the same to the people in printe for what cause let wise men consider amongest many other doultish vntruthes to affirme this vz. that the Churches of Zuricke Berne Shaffhusen S. Galls Rethia Mylliane Bieuna Polonie and Hungaria haue commended by their subscription to the second Heluetian confession the gouernement of the Church by Elders to be vsed in all Churches for euer But let the whole confession bee viewed and although I doubt not but that there was as much cunning vsed by the Geneuians about that subscription as might be yet is there not one word in it that tendeth that way In that confession there are but two markes of the Church set downe the thirde after the Geneua computation is leste out In the Chapter of the ministers of the Church they are all of them as many as are there named reckoned for ministers of the worde and sacramentes That which is there and might in any sorte be wrested to that purpose is this And seeing there must needs be discipline in the Church and in times past apud veteres excommunnication was vsed and there were ecclesiasticall iudgementes in the people of god in the which this discipline was exercised by wise and godly menne it shall also bee the ministers part to moderate this discipline as it may edifie according to the condition of times and the publique states and as it shall bee necessarye Which wordes are so farre from commendinge the perpetuall vse of the Geneua Eldershippe that in mine opinion they are quite against it For thus they say First that there must bee discipline which no man denyeth secondly that excommunication was vsed in the times of the auncient fathers this also is confessed thirdly that amongest the Iewes there were ecclesiasticall courts in which this discipline was exercised by wise and godly menne who for anye thinge that is here sayde might bee of the tribe of Leui and all of them priestes and fourthly that it belongeth to the ministers to moderate this Discipline that is to vse it or not to vse it as times states and necessitye shall require And that this my interpretation of this fourth pointe must needes bee the meaning of the Heluetian confession it appeareth hereby in that this forme of gouernement which the petitioner speakeh of is not in anye Church in all Heluetia for ought I haue heard They haue no such Aldermen they haue no vse of theyr excommuncation And hauing beene manye dayes solicited to haue receiued it for the better reputation of Geneua theyr aunswere hath euer beene that euery Church is to haue an especiall eye to this pointe what will most edifye and that for-asmuch as they haue founde the terpretation of the Scriptures which hath beene since the Apostles times The notablest instrument None euer like him Maister Trauerse I think will not indure that For he is resolute in Maister Bezaes behalfe saying Maister Beza is the best interpreter of the new Testament There was one in Basile who gaue it out after a glorious manner that he did attribute non minus Farello quam Paulo no lesse to Farellus then he did to Paule Which maister Caluin misliked The letter which Beza writ vnto our English disciplinaries whereupon they were to build their consciences is kept I perceiue by the Register as a relique at home in their houses In the scurrilous libell which the brethren doe tear me the practise of prelates I finde these wordes Maister Caluin Beza Viret c. Knox Cartwright and such like c. are the onely worthies in the worlde that haue maintained Discipline Worthies A trifling commendation He was a verie notable man in his time that saide mediocria firma And might no meaner a dignitie serue these men but needes they must be Worthies They should haue called them stupor mundi the astonishment of the world There is much written of the Popes of Rome by their Parasites as that they haue a diuine iudgement and cannot erre c. and you shall see that within a while if the world hold thus on the Consistoriall humoristes may chaunce to come neere them euen in this their so grosse and palpable folly Zanchius telleth a notable historie When he came newly out of Italy to Geneua Caluin and Viretus preached ordinarily there at one certaine houre the one in Saint Peters Church the other in Saint Geruasins Nowe there was a Frenchman with whome hee grew into some acquaintance that neuer missed Maister Caluins sermon but woulde not once vouchsafe to heare Viretus Whereupon Zanchius demaunding of him the reason why hee heard not the one sometimes aswell as the other in haec ferme verbarespondet sed Gallice St veniret S. Paulus qui eadem hor◠concionaretur qua Caluinus ego relicto Paulo audirem Caluinum the Frenchman aunswered plainly in these very wordes almost but in French If Saint Paule should come to Geneua and should preach the same houre that Caluin did I would leaue Paule and goe to heare Caluin It is also written of Alexander the third that treading vpon the necke of the noble Emperour Fredericke the first hee applied vnto himselfe and that action these wordes of the Psalme spoken of Christ Thou shalt walke vppon the venemous Aspe and Basiliske thou shalt tread downe the Lyon and Dragon And see what was written in a letter to maister Caluin by one Iacobus Bernardus from Geneua which letter Caluin thought meete to be kept in store and Beza to publish it in print Maister Caluin being bannished from Geneua by the procurement of the Ministers especially that disliked his proceedinges there was great meanes made for his returne thither again So as after some two or three yeares absence thence it was agreed in the City that hee should be restored to his former place as you haue heard before Quod cum intellexissem non potui non laudare Deum aliterque iudicare quam quód a Deo factum istud esset mirabile in oculis nostris quodque lapis quem reprobarant aedificantes in caput fieret anguli which thing saith the said Bernardus to Caluin when I vnderstood I could not but praise God nor otherwise iudge then that it was the Lordes dooing and was maruilous in our eyes and that the stone which the builders had refused shoulde bee made the heade of the corner Which wordes are onely applied in the newe Testament by the Apostles and Euangilests to our sauiour Christe were in my iudgment as blasphemously applied to Caluin as the other were by the
Pope to him-selfe But I will leaue these immodrate and forraine dotages specifie vnto you some of our domesticall I confesse to you saith the displayer of men in their colloures I reuerence D. Fulke and no disparagement vnto any I thinke him vniuersally as well learned as euer Caluin or Beza was And in an other place Put it to the censure of D. Fulke D. Whittakers Maister Cartwright c. Men I hope as well able to iudge as all the L. Bishops in christendome Againe No question but Caluin and Beza are wide sometimes Also afterwarde The verie ornaments of your vniuersitie indeede whose verie names and liues doe carry with them aestimation to bee reuerenced D. Fulke D. Goade D. Whittakars to these men I appeale And furthermore If wee should once or twise and vse it not set D. Fulkes learned iudgement against the bare authoritie of Caluin and Beza in this case I doe not see that it be any great preiudice or disparagement vnto any Diuerse other such like speeches there are in that booke whereby a man may see how the brethren are affected vnto their parte-takers Although he nameth some who will neuer thanke him for it and I supose hee hath done them great iniurie in making them to seeme the patrones of such fancies as there are mainetained I made mention before of Cartwrights place amongst certaine disciplinary worthies But my meaninge is not so to passe him ouer whom all the rest of our men doe soe admire His authoritie in deede is very great as being in effecte the Patriarche of them all Those thinges that he writeth are almost oracles Happye is the brother that canne come in his companie If hee bee in prison prayers are made for his deliueraunce if hee bee deliuered great thankes are publickely giuen vnto god for the same If hee commaund the rest obey if hee shall relent I thinke they will all relent When great matters are to bee handled he must needs be one in euery place Couentry Cambrdige London c. And vppon any new accidents the occurrents are caried to him as to their chiefest counsaylor Salute our most reuerent brother maister Cartwright for whome prayers are made with vs. As soone as I knowe of maister Cartwrightes deliuery I sent for maister Trauers and we had psalmes of thankesgiuing prayers to the same purpose and a sermon his text being the 20 of Ieremie 10.11.12.13.14 verses I percciue by those imperfect writinges of maister Cartwrightes and others that the pointes of reformation are at large and particularly debated Wee want bookes whereby wee may come to the knowledge of the truth I meane T. C. bookes The forme of gouernment set down by T. C. is commanded by god I thanke god I haue satisfied in part my longing with conference with M. Cartwright of whom I thinke as she did of Solomon I would gladly knowe when I might come from Oxford to London to see T.C. Maister Snape vpon one of his examinations before her Maiesties Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical findinge some matters to haue bene further disclosed then he looked for presently directed his letters thereof into the countrey mouing his frend that maister Cartwright might be aduertised It were good saith he you sent to T.C. with speed I would gladly heare whether T. C. did councell you or demaund councell of you I wish the matter maye bee well and closly handled For I heare some whispering allready yet among them that fauour the cause that he hath councelled the brethren rather to vse those corruptions then to leaue their charges I wish and hope it be not so not onely least men should iudge the man to be inconstant but especially for that these times be such that in them such yealding will doe no good Maister D. Bridges hauing occasion in his writinges to name Maister Cartwright did forget to carry this word M. vnder his girdle but called him plainly Cartwright Wherat see how maister Trauerse repineth Wee acknowledge and reuerence maister Cartwright as his rare guiftes of knowledge zeale his learned works constant suffering in this cause and at this time his continuall trauell in preaching the Gospell doe worthely deserue for which cause hee was worthy other respect then the replier here doth giue him If hee would needes set downe his name hee shoulde haue considered the example of the Apostle who yet seldome or neuer mentioneth any minister of the Gospell by name yea scarse anye professor without some good marke of the grace of god in them But this and a great deale more both hee and whosoeuer shall serue god as they ought in this cause of the further reformation of the Church must account to endure of them that oppose themselues to this most necessary seruice I had lately some speach with Maister Cartwright concerning our next meeting who aduised me to put you in mind of some thinges c. Hee saith that at your late being together at Wroxall you determined our nexte meetinge to bee at Warwicke at the quarter Sessions that twesday for the humbling of our selues and the day following to consult of other matters His request is that you will giue notice thereof vnto the brethren of our conference and also that by your meanes there may bee some of vs appointed to exercise in priuate that day If this his request connot conueniently bee performed then I take it necessary thot you write so with some speede to M. Cartwright that hee may prouide a remedie else where M. May and I ridde with M. Cartwright to M. Throgmortons two miles out of Warwicke where hee preached more he sayde then euer he did in his life before c. On tuesday M. Cartwright kept M. Fens lecture text psalme 122. 4. vnto the ende takinge thrones as Tremellius doth and vrginge the discipline the want wherof hee affirmed to bee the cause that some friendes forsooke our church and enemies as Papistes would not come neere her I pray you remember to reserue for mee one of the rare birds bookes his name may bee right Cartwright God bee praised though hee cannot speake vnto vs yet accordinge to his name hee doth write He is a worthy wight Sicut discipuli olim presto habuerunt ipsum Dominum ita magistrum Cartwrightum dominum meum habeo presentem as the disciples in times past had the Lord himselfe amongst them so I haue M. Cartwright my Lord in presence with me And thus hetherto of these poore simple but yet most palpable parasites The disciplinarie crue a company of Apostles and Cartwright their Christe Christe amongste his Apostles and Cartwright amongst his Disciples If Cartwright and such other guides were not supposed by their followers to bee very notable Thrasoes is it possible that any man of common sence would shewe themselues to bee such flattering Gnathoes And these are the menne for-sooth that in all their
at another time and when they haue forgotten themselues they will of purpose I feare it to abuse the worlde stand very much vppon the auncient fathers and bragge of their authoritie exceedingly As Cartwright doth in these words most vntruly We propound nothing saith he that the scriptures doe not teach the writers both olde and newe for the most part affirme and the examples of the primitiue Churches confirme Did euer any manne regard Cartwrightes credite who considering what hath beene noted out of his bookes in this whole processe doeth not pittie him with all his harte to heare him so farre to forget himselfe Hee is a manne of good learning which maketh mee to woonder at him It is surely great pittie that euer hee was so maried vnto his Eldershippe For it hath vtterly ouerthrowne all the good partes that bee in him The best lawyer that is when hee giueth himselfe to shiftes and to feed his clyentes with quirkes refusing not to brabble in anye cause be it neuer so false he looseth his estimation and with the grauer sort is little regarded Howe truely Maister Cartwright affirmeth that he and his fellows do propound nothing but that the old writers for the most parte doe affirme and the examples of the primitiue church confirme I trust it hath in part already appeared vnto you in sundry places but especially in the 5. as I saide and in the 27. Chapters I haue heard some Councellers at lawe vse the verye like course of speach when notwithstanding the cause hath falne out most directly against them yet they haue cried out Oh my Lord wee haue these and these olde euidences to shewe such and such depositions doe make for vs verye manifestly wee haue yet many witnesses to bee examined and thus they will proceed with many cracking wordes as though there had beene nothing which had made against them Is Cartwright able trowe you to finde his Parish Bishops and his counterfeit Lay-Elders which two pointes are in effecte all in all with him in the auncient fathers and primitiue Church Hee maye say as truely that the Sonne shines at midnight But yet hee sayth that Ignatius and Cyprians Bishops were but as our pastors or parsons arein euery parish For his vnministering Elders hee alledgeth the same Ignatius and Cyprian and for a surcharge hee bringeth in also Tertullian Hierome Possidonius and Socrates where they make mention of priests I was once purposed to haue set downe the places themselues which they so violently peruerte to bolster out such theyr apparaunt falshood and to haue aunswered them But then I remembred howe effectually that had beene done allready by diuers learned and woorthie menne and of late more fully and largely by two especiall persons whose books one of them is in printing and the other presently comming to the presse and therevpon I altered my mind in that point And yet something thereof agreeably to the course which hetherto I haue obserued that may peraduenture amaze some of them Vppon some occasion falling out maister Cartwright affirmeth that if the now Lord Arch-bishop of Canterbury had read the ecclesiasticall stories hee shoulde haue founde easiely the Eldership most florishing in Constantines time vz. in hauing then such Bishops and Elders as hee fancieth to himselfe For he must bee so vnderstood To whome replie being made that he should bring but one ecclesiasticall historie that affirmed so much after some three or fower yeares hee brought two vz. the historie of Magdeburge and Eusebius His testimony out of the first he setteth down in these words The centuries must needes haue told him that the same orders and functions of the church were in that time which were before And what would he inferre hereof Surely if hemeane honestly and doe not dally with the word before refering it further then the Centuries meant it which was but to the age that succeeded the Apostles he could not haue directed a man to any history now extant that doth more directly confound his assertion For there the authors of that history doe most plainely affirme that by and by after the Apostles death necessitas coegit personarum gradus aliquos constituere et conseruare necessity compelled the fathers then liuing to ordaine certaine degrees of persons in the church and to conserue them This is most directly against Cartwrights assertion although for mine own part to note it by the way I thinke the Apostles knowing the necessitie mentioned had taken that order before But to follow the said historie There were three degrees then ordained say the said authors vz. Episcopatus presbyterium Diaconatus the degree of Bishops of priesthood and of Deaconship For the proofe whereof they cite Ignatius Eusebius Theodoret c. and the very place of S. Ierome where he sheweth how for auoiding of schisme one was chosen amongst the ministers to haue preheminence ouer the rest and to whome the name of Bishop was peculiarly then attributed And as concerning the priests or Elders they doe shew it out of Eusebius Nicephorus Irenaeus Iustine c. that their office was to preach the Gospell and to administer the sacraments c. The Centuries thus we see will not serue M. Cartwrights turne to the iustifying of the florishing estate of his Eldership in Constantines daies I wil therfore come vnto his sec̄od authority which he bringeth out of Eusebius It is manifest saith he that the churches were gouerned vnder Constantine by Bishops Elders and Deacons by that which is recited of an infinit number of Elders and Deacons which came to the Councel of Nice with the 250. Bishops It is manifest indeede And it is also as manifeste that there were at that time both Archbishops and Patriarches But there were at that Councel both Bishops Elders and Deacons And what then I know that many men haue wrested many places directly contrarie to the authors meaninge but I doe not remember anie one place within the compasse of my small readinge that is more grosly peruerted then this place is For M. Cartwright running still his old biace would haue men to thinke that by Bishops Eusebius meant so many parishe-ministers and by priests or Elders his said counterfaite Aldermen And his authoritie is so greate amongest his sectaries who professe their Gleaninge after him that what-so-euer he bringeth they take it vpon his credit and so runne on with a conceite that not onely all other authorities brought by him out of the auntient Fathers mentioned are truely by him expounded and applyed but that also euen this place of Eusebius is to bee vnderstood as here he woulde haue it Wherein surely they are much to blame to depend so much vpon any mans credit If they them-selues had euer read either the Fathers or the ecclesiasticall histories they coulde neuer possibly haue beene miscarried so palpably A frinde of mine hauinge some talke not many yeares since with Maister Cartwright about this place of Eusebius
alledged and expounded by him as you haue heard vrged him verie earnestly that he woulde indeede tell him truely whether hee beeinge a man of learninge and so coulde not bee ignorant of Eusebius meaninge did not sinne euen against his owne conscience when he cited that place to such an ende and purpose as hee had done His aunswere was that hee did not and that hee was still of the same minde therein that hee was before Why Sir replyed my friende As Eusebius sayeth that there were an infinit number of Elders and Deacons which came to the Councell of Nice with the 250 Bishops So it is reported by Socrates that in the sayde Councell it had beene decreed by the Bishops c. but for Paphnutius that Bishops Elders Deacons shoulde haue companied no more with their wiues Quas cum erant laiui in matrimonium duxissent which they had married when they were lay-menne And now must wee expound Socrates in this place as you doe expounde Eusebius doth Socrates meane by priestes there your manner of lay Elders was the Councell bent to haue debarred such men from their wiues Speake your conscience truely I pray you Maister Cartwright aunswered againe that hee verily thought in his conscience that by priestes there Socrates vnderstood the saide Elders and that the Councell meant to haue seperated them from their wiues And this reason was because within a while after there was some question whether Subdeacons might marrie My sayde friende replied againe that hee was verie sory to heare his aunswere and that he verily thought the like interpretation of Socrates wordes was neuer made before nor would euer be made hee hoped by anie after him And so they parted Afterwardes my sayde friend findinge that when hee told some persons of great place how M. Cartwright did expounde the said words of Socrates they would hardly beleeue him but supposed rather that he had mistaken them did write a letter vnto him desiringe him most earnestly that if he c̄otinued in the same mind he left him he would be content to returne vnto him in writing some further reasons thereof then formerly he made at his being with him Maister Cartvvright hereupon writ backe againe vnto my friend I haue his letter in my custodie excusing himselfe that through want of bookes he could not satisfie his expectation so fully as he would But for the point I speake of thus he writ Touching that it seemeth strange vnto you that the gouerning elders should haue bene in danger to haue bene forbidden mariage in the councell of Neece I thought I had satisfied you in alleaging that not long after there vvas great hold amongst the councels vvhether Deacons yea Subdeacons should be married So as now that which before stood only vpon the credit of the relator is readie to be shewed vnder maister Cartvvrights hand as it hath alreadie bene to diuers of this disciplinarie disposition who as I haue bene informed and partly do know all of them haue vtterly signified their great dislike of that point And yet either he must of necessitie so interpret Socrates or els be driuen to giue ouer Eusebius and so both he and all his Aldermen to take their leaue of the Ecclesiasticall histories and bid them adieu But yet there is another thing in maister Cartvvrights sayd letter which is very fit for you to vnderstand that so you may see how he foileth himselfe One thing sayth hee vnto my sayd friend in your letter I thinke you mistake me in that you esteeme that I should hold a bishop and a minister of the vvord all one in the times of the Nicene councell For notvvithstanding that I hold that in the Apostles time and vvith S. Paule it is all one to be a bishop and to be a minister of the vvord yet it vvere a foule ignorance in me if I should not haue knovvne that long before the councell of Neece the name of bishop vvas for the most part appropriated to one in a church C̄osider I pray you how the man was mistaken If by elders Eusebius should haue meant his counteirfet laie rulers must he not then by his 250 bishops most necessarily haue meant so many parish ministers pastors or parsons except he will say that there was no such ministers there which were as new a paradox as the rest But how agreeth this of the difference he confesseth betwixt a bishop and a minister of the word long before the councell of Neece with some other of his sayings else-where in print such as there are The bishop that Ignatius speaketh of vvas but the minister of a particular congregation Againe Ciprians Bishop vvas nothing els but S. Pauls bishop that is one that had cure and charge of one flocke Again the bishop vvhich S. Ciprian speaketh of is nothing els but such as vve call pastor or as the common name with vs is Parson and his church vvherof he is bishop is neither diocesse nor prouince but a congregation vvhich meet together in one place and bee taught of one man Now ioine these things together and see what a Gallimawfrie ye haue May not a man misdoubt that maister Cartvvright is not yet resolued of his owne opinion Haue not his scholers great cause to reioyce in glaining after so constant an author What can he pretend to salue his credit withall Hee will neuer secke a refuge for shame out of these words vz. For the most part As though he should thus expound S. Ierome where he saith that when some began to hold of Peter some vpon Paule and some vpon Apollo which was as I take it in the Apostles times it was then decreed throughout all the world that for auoyding of schismes one minister who was called a bishop should haue authoritie and iurisdiction ouer all other ministers in his diocesse that is true should Cartvvright say throughout all the world except at Antioch and Carthage two little hamblets where Ignatius and S. Cyprian were but plaine parsons euen like the parsons of Hitchin and Newington Not many yeares since a friend of mine was commanded for a certaine purpose to contriue the cheese matters in controuersie about the pretended discipline into certain questions And it is pertinent to the matter I now speake of to acquaint you with two of them The first because of the pretence which is made as you haue heard of the ancient fathers was this VVhether can it bee shevved out of any ancient father out of any councell either generall or prouinciall or out of any ecclesiasticall historie for the space of 1500 and od yeares euen from the Apostles times till of late that in the ordinarie distribution of church-officers since that time euer vsed into Episcopos Presbyteros diaconos Bishops priests deacons vvhether can it I say be shevved that this vvord Episcopus that is Bishop vvas at any time taken there and vsed by the churches in any countrie for a common and vsuall
no longer this wonderfull thing that Trauerse speaketh off is this vz. that as it seemeth some of the said Churches so highly by him commended haue by vertue of their discipline excommunicated alreadie some great princes or Kinges If he had not himselfe published this matter in print and propounded the same as a president for the honour of his discipline I would not haue presumed yee maie be sure to haue touched it Neyther yet will I further meddle with it then onely to set downe his wordes After a long discourse how where there discipline is on foote there is nothing in effect amisse no priuate administration of the sacraments no baptizing or reading of seruice by Deacons no commutation of pennaunce no respect of persons he saith thus Memorable is that rare but right christian example of Theodosius the Emperor publicklye humbling himselfe vnder the hande of God and professing his repentance for his bloodye commaundement and the cruell execution done accordinge to it A president well worthy so christian a prince the honour of the Discipline yea and of the whole church of that age Such Theodosians haue the reformed churches of this age to speake off to the high honor of almighty God and his onlye begotten sonne Christ Iesus king of kinges Wherein a Prince of bloode royall and by birth within a step or two to one of the greatest Kingdomes of these partes of the worlde and for princely giftes worthy to haue borne a Scepter in his hande and a Diademe vpon his heade when as another Dauid hee hadde been ouerthrowen by Sathan and committed things for which the name of God was euill spoken off endured to heare the seruant of God as Dauid did Nathan to rebuke him lamenting his offence openly before the publicke assembly of the Church desired pardon of God and reioyced heauen and earth men and Angels with his conuersion from sinne to the obedience of the liuing God blessed for euer Amen Whose christian president both a crowned King and also a worthie sonne of that noble Father haue followed after that by terror of as barbarous crueltie as hath beene commited in any age they had done otherwise then Daniell and the yonge princes brought vp with him did in a case not vnlike to theyrs c. Hitherto Trauers And what this importeth iudge you I will aunswere no questions who these Theodosians are As princes like it let them allow it And thus of the commendation of this gouernment which if it were true indeed and that it had by any lawfull title so Regall an authority as here you see is pretended who would not almost fall downe and worshippe it But you must belieue them with discretion Men that thinke they know this platforme as well as the best of those that haue extolled it do carrie a farre differing opinion of it And therefore they haue been bold to write of it as followeth It is a sillye Presbytery or Eldership A sequestred withdrawen Presbyterye A sweeping new reformation A presumptuous irregular Consistory which hath no grounde in the worde of God A second beast Let them consider how far the â—auinge of such a Consistorie and Pastor in one Congregation differeth from that Apostolicall sea of Rome and that holy father that sitteth therein Of this Consistorie through the whole testament they can shew no warraunt They make themselues transgressors of the worshippe of God disturbers violaters of that holy order which Christ hath established in his Church These deceitfull workemen not onelye builde theyr owne timber and stubble deuises but most highly prophane that heauenly frame and gratious gouernement of Christ. In their leauened and corrupt writings of discipline and theyr supplications vnto the Parliament are declared theyr pernitious forgeries and sacrilegious prophanation of Gods holy ordinance They fetch their reformation from the primatiue defection That counterfeyt reformation which these counterfeit preachers pretende is as euill as that which is alreadie Both these factions pontificall and reformists woulde assume the whole gouernment of the Church into theyr owne handes How can o these forgers these coyners of religion seeme sue to cast out the heape of humane traditions as contrary and such as cannot bee ioyned vnto or with the testament of Christ and yet bring in these forgeries of theyr owne Is it likely or possible that our Sauiour Christ woulde fetch his patterne for the Elders of his Church and the executing of these high iudgements from that corrupt degenerate Synedrion of the Iewes which by the institutioÌ„ of God was merely ciuile and not ordayned for causes ecclesiasticall as appeareth Exod. 18. Num. 11. Deut. 1 The priestes bearing the charge and hauing the deciding of all ecclesiasticall causes Num. 18. Deut. 17. But this Councell of theyrs was now mixed of the Elders of the people and the Priestes and handled all causes both ciuile and Ecclesiasticall indifferently Mat. 26.3 Act. 4.5 If by the light of Gods word you examine and measure the secret Classis the ordinary sette Synods and Councels of ministers as they tearme themselues which these reformists now priuilie bring in and would openly set vp they shall no doubt be found as new strange antichristiaÌ„ as preiudicial to the libertie of the Saincts and to the power right and duties of the whole Church and as contrary to the gospell of our Lord Iesus Christ as the gouernement by Bishops c. what shew so euer of former antiquitie or of present necessitie they may pretend It is a new r adulterate forged gouernement in shew or rather in dispight of Christs blessed gouernment which they in pride rashnes ignoraunce and sensualytye of theyr fleshly hartes most miserablye innouate corrupt and peruert Theyr most exquisite plots of gouernment which they can deuise vnto theÌ„selues are but the instruments of foolish shepeheards to theyr owne perdition and of as many as are gouerned by them There is great difference we may perceiue hereby betweene the opinions of these two sorts of men concerning this presbyteriall forme of the new pretended discipline If any that are possessed with the former mens conceites shall lightly esteeme what this second sort of fellowes doe hold or thinke of their platforme he is to be put in mind that they are not so lightly to be regarded Diuerse ministers well reckoned of heretofore for their learning are lately fallen from Cartwright and his secte into another more new frenzy of Barrowisme In a letter that was taken not long since I find some points to this effect The preachers of Midleborow and Flushing haue both giuen ouer their vnlawfull callings M. Iohnson hath written a most learned discourse concerning the striking of a newe couenaunt with some conferences had in that country It is also reported and I am perswaded by that which I haue seene that the report is true vz. that maister Penry is entered in like manner into this
Iustice. By this the wealth and honour of the Realme woulde be encreased and contentions brawles and vnnecessary pleas would be preuented idle men of all sortes might be sette in order and the poore men greatly comforted The nobility and comminalty might haue their right Men would not grudge at triflinge charges for Warre Souldiers woulde bee made obedient to their Captaines patient and couragious It woulde bring strength and victorie and keepe out of Kinges Dominions ignoraunt wicked and flattering men Here out of the defence of Ecclesiasticall gouernement Pag. 121. 122. 123. 127. 134. Whereof commeth it that Arrians Valentinians and Anabaptistes with other detestable Heretiques are so rise in many places in this land is it not thereof that there is no Eldership Whereof commeth it that horrible blaspheming the holye and most reuerend name of God quarrelling and fighting dronkennes filthy speaking fornication adultery slaundering and such like runne ouer almost in euery place Is it not hereof that there is no Eldership Whereof commeth it that in so many excellent lawes prouided against rogues and beggers there are yet such numbers is it not hereof that the office of Deacons is abolished These are singular commodities indeede which these Elderships woulde bring with them if these men might be trusted But haue they brought forth these fruicts and effectes in those countries where they are established or are they but vaine wordes of ambitious men that by such godly pretences doe little else but seeke their owne glory Consider I pray you what very learned and graue men haue written in other countries of these and such like men as these and their fellowes are together with the estate of some of those countreis wher they haue their Elderships Maister Bullinger writing to a Bishop in England of our English innouators saith thus They imitate in mine opinion those seditious Tribunes of Rome who by vertue of the Agrarian Lawe bestowed the publicke goods that they might priuately inritch themselues that is that you meaning the Bishops being ouerthrowen they might succeede in your places c. But they goe about to erect a Church which they shall neuer aduaunce as they desire neither if they shoulde can they euer be able to continue it And after in the same Letter I woulde to God there were not in the Authors of this Presbytery libido dominandi an ambitious desire of rule and principality Nay I thinke it ought especially to be prouided for that there be not any high authoritye giuen to this Presbytery c. Whereof manie thinges might bee saide but time will reueale many thinges which yet lie hidde Maister Gualter in like sorte writeth thus to the Bishop of London for the time being Many doe vrge in these daies vnder a plausible name of Ecclesiasticall Discipline I know not what a platforme without the which they denie that any Churches can continue But I doe greatly feare least they bringe vs in an Aristocratie which will shortly degenerate into an Oligarchie and become the beginning of a newe Papacie For their onely labour is to sette vs vp a Presbyterie whereinto certaine honest men are indeede admitted but yet so as the Ministers will doe in a manner what they list It was of late decreed by the Ministers at Heidelberge that no man should bee admitted to the Lords Supper except he first offered himselfe to the Pastor For Paules rule is not helde sufficient there vz. that euerie man should trie himselfe The Elders did not agree to this decree but yet notwithstading it is vrged in the name of the Presbytery nay of the whole Church c. But there was not long since suche an example of a new tyrannie there as may iustlie feare anie that careth for the liberty of the Church There is there an Heluetian the Gouernour of the Colledge of Saint Denis as innocent and godly a man as liueth Howbeit Oleuianus the Pastor warned him by the crier of the Presbyterie in the name of all the Elders that he should not come to the Lordes Supper adding this cause that he could not admit him absque animi sui offensione without the offence of his minde The party tooke this dealing as it was reason in euill part and defireth to know what he hath committed that deserued such a punishment But they answered him not otherwise then that they continued in the same minde Whereuppon he offered a Supplication vnto the prince Elector that he would compell them to shewe the fault if there were any that he had committed But vntill this daie he coulde extort nothing else in effect from them This is their goodly order this is their Discipline Quare video nobis seriò vigilandum esse ne ex Romanae hydrae vix domitae vulneribus noua capita pullulent wherefore I see we are to be vigilant least new heads doe budde out of the woundes of the Romish hydra scarsely yet subdued And in another letter to the Bishop of Ely of the same matter he addeth that the Prince Elector vppon the said parties complaint did moue the Elders to shew what hee had committed that they dealt so with him Sed ne hoc ab illis impetrare potuit but he could not preuaile so much Marry at the last saith Maister Gualter being many waies more earnestly vrged thereunto they fell to coining of lies and perswaded the Prince that he abstained from the Lords supper of his own accord and now of that his voluntary forbearing woulde knowe the cause of them Many such things are done which it woulde be too long to rehearse Seeing they beginne in this sorte hauing not as yet any full possession of their new kingdom what shall we thinke they will doe si merum imperium obtineant if they obtaine an absolute authority By this letter also it seemeth that long since by Oecolampadius meanes notwithstandinge Zwinglius withstood it there was such a like forme of regiment erected in Basill but shortly after saieth Maister Gualter he was compelled to giue it ouer againe learning by experience that he had attempted a matter of greater discommodity then profite I cannot therefore dislike of them that oppose themselues to these endeuours who so busily in these daies pleade this for matter c. There are in Germanie and in another certaine plâ—â—e hee meaneth I thinke Geneua that denie the kingdome of Christ canne continue except the Discipline which they haue deuised be receaued in euery place I doc containe my selfe that I may not bee saide to haue begonne the fight Sin illi Classicum cecinerint but if they sound vp the Alarum I cannot choose but defend the doctrine of truth and the libertie of the Church not doubting but that many will ioyne with mee herein The same Gualter also again in another letter to the said Bishop of Ely I shall not neede to vse many wordes what I thinke of your innouators sith I haue done it in my last
as much authoritie as anye King maie lawfully challenge we abbridge her of nothing that the worde of God alloweth her and many other such ambiguous protestations they vse to make in this behalfe But they plav the deceitfull sophisters whom the Lord abhorreth For these are some of their grounds A man would thinke that they had taken them out of Hosius The Christian soueraigne ought not to be called the head vnder Christ of the particular and visible churches vvithin his dominions No ciuile magistrat hath prehemineÌ„ce by ordinary authoritie to determine of church-causes No ciuile magistrat in Councels or assemblies for church-matters can either be cheefe moderator ouer-ruler iudge or determiner No ciuile magistrat hath such authoritie as that vvithout his consent it should not be lavvfull for ecclesiastical persons to make any church-order or ceremonie No ciuile magistrat ought to receiue either tenths or first fruits of any ecclesiasticall persons The iudgemeÌ„t of church-matters pertaineth to God they ought ordinarily to be handled by the church-officers the principallitie or direction of the iudgement of them is by Gods ordinance pertaining to the ministerie of the Church As for the making of orders and ceremonies in the church they do vvhen there is a constituted and ordered church pertaine vnto the ministers of the church and to the ecclesiasticall gouernors and that as they meddle not vvith the making of ciuile lavves and lavves for the common-vvealth so the ciuile magistrate hath not to ordaine ceremonies pertaining to the church The ministers are to determine of controuersies as they arise and to make or abolish needfull or hurtfull ceremonies Herevnto may be added that which is before obserued how he ascribeth the same right in church causes to an infidel or prophane magistrat that he doth to any Christian princes and of their mutuall agreement with the Pope himselfe in the manner of both their excluding of Christian magistrats from hauing any thing to do as vnder Christ in his Church Hitherto then concerning all these puritane-popish assertious so much derogating from the lawfull authoritie of Christian princes There is but only this difference betwixt them the rankest Iesuits in Europe that what the one sort ascribe to the Pope and his shauelings the other do challenge to themselues and their Aldermen Vpon which occasion Cartvvright finding himselfe with his fellowes ranged to walke step by step with such a crue taketh vpon him like some dawber or bricklaier to make a high wall as he tearmeth it betwixt the Papists and them in this point But God knoweth it is a simple one and so thinne that you may easily looke through it and discerne them marching both togither First sayth he the Papists exempt their priests from the punishment of the ciuile magistrate vvhich vve doe not It is reason in deed you should not But if you doe not what doe these things mean The author of the second admonition desireth that he and his companions may be deliuered by act of Parlement from the authoritie of the ciuile magistrates as Iustices and others and from their inditings and finings Furthermore where Cartvvright sayth that the authoritie of christian Princes commeth immediately from God and not from Christ as he is mediator and that the authoritie of the svvord is the same ordinance of God as vvell in heathen princes as in Christians doth it not follow that in his iudgement Christian princes haue no authoritie ouer any of their subiects but only as they are men and not as they are either Christians or priests If you thinke it doth not then what T.C. wanteth I.B. doth supplie and that in proper tearmes as if it please you to peruse the place it will appeare vnto you Besides there goeth a letter from hand to hand written by certaine gentlemen of Suffolke to the Lords of her maiesties councell wherein there is great complaint made in the behalfe of certaine of the brotherhood as a matter fit to bee reformed that being ministers they had at their assises bene presented brought to the barre endicted arraigned and condemned Which dealing they tearme to be very hard and tending to the vtter discredit of the vvhole ministerie and profession of truth So that of all likelihood for all Cartvvrights saying both he and his fellowes could be well contented to be exempted from the ciuile magistrats But let vs heare the papists vpon this point or first part of Cartvvrights wall and peraduenture you shall find them as forward for their subiection herein as hee himselfe is or at the least as small a difference betwixt them as euer you saw though it were betweene two twiâ—nes Good kings may put bishops and priests in mind of their duties and bridle both their riot and arrogancie The prince by the vvord of God may make lavves for the obseruation of both tables and punish the trangressors I do here presently offer my selfe to receaue a corporall â—ath vpon the Euangelists that I do vtterly thinke and am persuaded in my conscience that the Queenes highnesse is the onely supreme gouernour of this realme and of all other her highnesse dominions and countries c. And further I shall presently svveare that her highnesse hath vnder God the soueraignty and rule ouer all maner of persons borne vvithin these her highnesse realms of vvhat estate ecclestasticall or temporall soeuer they be Fatemur person as EpiscoparuÌ„ qui in toto orbe fuerunt Romano imperatori subiectos fuisse VVe confesse that the persons of all the Bishops in the vvorld vvere subiect to the Romane emperour Rex praeest hominibus Christianis verum non quia sunt Christiani sed quia sunt homines quoniam ipsi episcopi sunt homines episcopis etiam ea ex parte rex praeesset The king ruleth christiaÌ„s not as they are christiaÌ„s but as they are men because bishops are men the king in that respect hath authoritie ouer them Harding also confesseth that if the causes be ciuile and temporall and all other causes our reformers do tie to their Elderships Bishops may be conuented before ciuile authoritie And it appeareth amongst all the learned Papists that the cheese prerogatiue they haue had in this point hath proceeded from the meere fauour and good will of Christian Princes the rather to couer and keepe from the people such faults in the Clergie as might breed their contempt Hitherto then this wall riseth vp but easily especially if I should adde in this place the brethren of Scotland their diuinitie for this matter when they not the Papists gaue the king and state occasion to make it by act of Parlement 1584 treason for any man to refuse to answer before the king though it were concerning any matter which was ecclesiasticall Now concerning the second part of Cartvvrights wall it is this The Papists sayth he vvill haue the Prince to