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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A57551	Letters between Mr. Robert Rogers, of Wakefield, and Mr. Thomas Walker, the present vicar there touching baptism.	Rogers, Robert, of Wakefield.; Walker, Thomas, fl. 1656. aut	1656 (1656)	Wing R1826A; ESTC R219734	7,229	10

in the largest sense Whereas you question my power of Examination I shall refer you to what you heard lately in publick about that subject from a person more able to satisfie you then I am I have not ever yet heard one syllable of Reason or Scripture against it no nor any Protestant Divine I cannot as yet see any thing that should make against it except Ignorance or Pride or both if you can shew me sufficient grounds against it I will leave it and also give you many thanks for it is a work that a man shall have little thanks for and incurre much prejudice and displeasure by which I have experimentally found yet dare not leave it wherein you see me domineer over the flock or give ill example to it tell me privately and I shall endeavour to rectifie it That the Church of England hath been for many hundred years or one hundred yeares setled unlesse in a Popish way is wholly denyed by Sir Yours as farre at he may for Christs sake T. WALKER Wakefield March 1655. SIR You should have received a quicker answer to your Letter but my 〈◊〉 at York and some other necessary occasions hindered me I was upon the opening of your Letter full of expectance in reference to my satisfaction in the case propounded but upon perusall of your paper instead of arguments from Scripture you fly to a poor shift of selfe-satisfaction and make your selfe the Judge of the necessity I shall refer my selfe to any impartiall person in your Congregation whether the Mother with the Midwife and others imployed in businesse of tha● nature be not the fitter Judges of the Sicknesse and danger of an Infant and consequently of the pressing necessity then your selfe except you will take upo● you the office of a Midwife as well as of the Minister What you still urge in reference to Publick Baptisme I still say is farre from the matter in hand or a meer begging or declining the Question I never denied it nay I proffered you twenty persons for a Congregation Christ admit of a lesse number because you seemed to stand upon that also to bring my childe to the Church though then in great weaknesse did not I herein chuse the surer part but it seems twenty are not a Congregation without a Sermon o● Exposition and that is not to be had on the week day without hire How wel● Demetrius playes his part while good Soules grieve to see Christ and his Ordinance thus bought and sold That the Compilers of Common Prayer were in their judgements agains● Private Baptisme where Publick might be had without danger of the Infant 〈◊〉 deny not but in such a case which is the question in hand their judgement are for it as appeares by the Rubrick else they man not Compiled it nor subscribed a forme for it your owne argument returnes upon your selfe I could have wished satisfaction rather then sophistry Dr. Vsher I have an honourable and reverend opinion of when you shall satisfie me out of him I shall say no more to you in the meane time I have so much charity as to thinke you will no belye him That contradiction is not yet solved though your own interpretation be allowed if private Baptism in a case of necessity be agreeable to Scripture why doe you not accordingly Administer it if not why doe you say it is and quote it publiquely as an Authority this is either to contradict or condemn your self in what you allow that poore starting hole of self-satisfaction into which you run againe when all helps faile you will not cleare the contradiction in the eye of any knowing man That of the holy Apostles circumcising of Timothy and not of Titus whereby you would justifie the Administring of Baptism to other mens Children and not to mine is if you had well understood your self little to the purpose the Apostle did it to avoid offence to Jew and Gentile he became all things to all men that he might by all meanes save some it was that he might gaine both and lose neither how farre this is from your practise I referre to the whole Congregation and to your own heart offences are multiplied weake Christians troubled with your practises a party so adhered unto that the rest are wholly cast off your partiality noted by all the people besides Saint Pauls example in the infancy of the Church in matter of practise cannot alwayes be a rule to us witnesse one example for all his shaving at Concrea Act. 18.18 I know not whether your Argument be guilty of more irreverence or folly For your great Diana of examination you referre me I know not whom and therefore leave it you tell me that neither Reason nor Scripture speak against it methinks it is a weak way of arguing yet if you allow but the same for private Baptism your argument destroyes your selfe what ever the Scriptures say of Examination I am sure your practice makes it necessary to the Ordinance so as it cannot be had without it and the neglect of it dangerous and if that practice be without positive grounds from Scripture you know where your thanks must be My Christian wish you apply your self but since you desire it I shall with privacy propound these questions to you what think you of him who shall in the face of a Congregation examine the Father of a child upon the accompt passing by all others who had their Children baptised the same time what think you of him who shall Baptise a child without prayer before or Thanksgiving after Baptism what think you of him who for want of examination and not giving in his name shall turne a man out by head and shoulders from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper what think you of him who before morning Sermon shall refuse to Baptize a weake child upon the intreaty of the Parent and then Baptize it after Sermon when it is either dead or at the point of death what do you think of him that shall publiquely deny the Supremacy of the civill power in causes Ecclesiastica●● distracting the flock and withdrawing them from their obedience if this be not to Lord it over Gods heritage I know not what is I hope you will letter consider of these things in the meane time I am Yours so far as you are a Son of Peace ROBERT ROGERS Wakefield the 12 of Aprill 1656. I have not received any answer of this last Letter therefore I Printed these Letters in hope that they may fall into the hands of some Godly and Learned Divine that will endeavour to give the Church of God satisfaction in this point FINIS

by any sober Christian so that your letter in effect is in my thoughts no more then a begging of the question or shooting at Rovers without ever coming neere the mark Sir I shall no further take notice of your uncharitablenesse in censuring and the recrimination wherewith you have stuffed your paper then to tell you how sorry I am to see in a Preacher of the Kingdome of Christ so little of the Spirit of love and meeknesse when you shall satisfie me in the generality of the opinions of pious and learned men in the true point in question it is probable I may be convinced in the mean time you cannot blame me if I dare not rely upon your own judgment and by I know not what kind of implicite faith pin my conscience upon your or any other mans sleeve I have but two things to speak to in your letter and I shall doe it without any bitternesse the one relates to your self the other to me first in one place you say you are not bound to act against your Judgement in another that you looke upon the Common prayer though not as scripture yet to be agreeable to Scripture in my thoughts here is either a flat contradiction or some thing worse if in your judgement the Common-prayer be agreeable to Scripture you act against your judgement and conscience in denying my child private Baptisme which is a part of it if it be not agreeable to Scripture you act against your judgement and conscience in quoting it and affirming it to be so if this be not either to contradict or condemn your selfe in that which you allow having done that to others you denied to me I referre it to every judicious and sober-minded Christian The other relating to my self it the doubt you make of my Christianity in the close of your letter and you seem to keep this as your great engine to batter the fabrick what cause you have in a setled Church for many hundred yeares to raise such a doubt I know not the rather where you have no cause to suspect and where you see a constant frequenting of the Ordinances my earnest desire to you for the Baptizing of my child was I think a sufficient Argument of my faith to any moderate Christian Spirit where if you had doubted you might have examined me though even in that of Examination I am dubious whether it be in your power I believe there are still many good Christians in Wakefield who never were under your examination and I doe think it to be very hard and uncharitable to judge or sensure any man for want of it Other things thets are in your letter of lesse moment which I am unwilling to take notice of Sir my prayers shall be for your self and for all that serve at the Altar that you may rather study to be ensamples to your flocks then to Lord it over Gods heritage If you please to give me an account or the Question wherein not only my self but the Parish is concerned I shall not make use of any other Ministers for my satisfaction in the point in the means time I rest Yours ROBERT ROGERS SIR I am very glad that you are satisfied about the practise and convenience of publ●que Baptism this had been enough had you duely weighed it to have engaged you to bring your child to publique Baptism it was the rule which the Apostle observed not to use his liberty in all things that were lawfull but onely those things which were convenient And it is an approved rule among Divines that he that would keep a good conscience in such cases wherein there appeares any doubt will make choice of the surer part that is that part wherein he may be sure not to offend against the Lord now I think you will not deny but you bad been on the surer part had you brought it into the publique Congregation Whereas you urge necessity I answer that it did not appeare to me to be a case of necessity nor does yet appeare that it was so if I should grant to you that private Baptism were lawfull in case of necessity yet I suppose you will not say that every one must be judge of the necessity and if the Minister doe not so judge I see not that being duly considered above-written how he can in conscience proceed to Administer it privately you may accuse me as farre as you please of want of love and meeknesse and have as low thoughts of me as you please in other respects I blesse God he hath so farre given me a sight of my self that none that know me think worse of me then I doe of my self All your tart expressions and harsh censures together with your charging me with self-contradiction or to use your own words somewhat worse shall not I hope make me out of charity with you neither you nor any other shall find me backward to expresse my self in any thing wherein I may lawfully as becomes a Minister of the Gospell that private Baptism is against the judgement of the Generality of Protestant Divines is cleare to me and also may be to you if you will but consult Dr. Vshers body of Divinity the judgement of the last Assembly of Divines sitting at Westminster as also the Common-prayer book for that the compilers thereof were in their judgements against private Baptism appeares cleare to me in that there is an expresse Injunction in case any had been baptized privately to make it afterwards publique This you will find if you read the private Baptism The contradiction with which you charge me is easily reconciled if you doe but look upon my words upon which you ground the aspersion you shall find that they relate not to all the Common prayer in the whole Systeme of it but onely to the Rubrick before private Baptism which I look upon as agreeable to Scripture let any unprejudicated understanding person read that passage of my letter and if they doe not agree with me herein I shall willingly be accounted a self-contradicter though I look upon that Rubrick as agreeable to Scripture yet I am not obliged thereby to Administer baptism privately especially when I am not satisfied that it is a case of necessity Whereas you charge me with deniall of that to you which I did to others I answer that the case was very different And I find the Apostle did the like as you may see Acts 16.3 compared with Gal. 2.3 he Circumcised Timothy yet would not Circumcise Titus nor suffer it you constant attendance upon Ordinances I commend but this together with a desire of having your child Baptized does not necessarily speak you to be a Christian though for my own part I never denied your Christianity but onely affirmed which I still think that your carriage in this businesse had not been Christian I have known many that have done both these and yet have been guilty of such grosse ignorance as was inconsistent with Christianity taken