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A90883 Certaine scruples from the army: presented in a dialogue betweene a minister of the new moulded Presbytery, and a souldier of his Excellencies (formerly new-moulded, but now despised) army. Being the substance of severall discourses, of the souldiers with the ministers in divers parts of the kingdom. Wherein the doubtfulnesse of the ministers new old, or old new calling, is manifested, their compelling principle detected: the practise of souldiers, and others, exercising themselves in the Scriptures, for their mutuall edifying, justifyed. / By one of the kingdomes servants, in the army. Pounset, John. 1647 (1647) Wing P3039B; Thomason E390_21; ESTC R201540 20,790 31

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parallelled Oh oppression without compaire Know this assuredly the Lord will not alwayes suffer it see what hee saies of oppression and oppressors Prover 22.22 Rob not the peare because hee is poore ●●ither oppresse the as●ictea in judgement for the Lord will defend their cause and spoile the soule of those that spoile them Now you both Rob and make poore and appresse in judgement and spoile First you Rob them in taking from them their just liberties in banishing or imprisoning them they being free borne and if they were not poore before you make them poore by this course which brings affliction not only to the supposed offenders but even to those who in your sence are guiltlesse as the Presbyterian husband wife parents children c. And thou you oppresse the afflicted in judgement But the Lord will defend their cause which is indeed for their exceeding comfort but as for you read your doome in the next words he will ●●●le the soule of those that spoile them See also what the Lord hath said in relation to his poore captivated people and those cruell tyrants that captivat them Esa 48.25.26 But thus saith the Lord even the captivity of the mighty shall●e taken away and the prey of the Tyrant shall by delivered for I will contend with them that contend with thee and I will save thy children and I will seed them that spoile thee with their own fl●sh and they ●ha● bee drungen with th●r own blood as with sweet w●●● and all fl●●h shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy R●deem●r the Mighty one of Jacob. Presb. What do● you account us Tyrants Sould. You prove your selves to be so by your practice Presb. Why there hath none of you been either imprisoned or banished as yet Sould. What is in intention is all one as if it where in action i● the account of Gods and it had been brought forth into action before this time had the Parliament but given you power to doe it as your dayly preaching and printing doth declare So that it may be fitly applyed to you which is said Mic. 2.1 Woe unto them that unagine iniquity and worbe wickedresse upon their b●dds when the morning is light they practise it because their hand hath power Presb. Well wee shall teach you to apply Scripture other we yet one o● these dayes if once wee could get some few ●ubbs out of our way which wee are in great hopes wee shall very speedyly if once the Army w●re di●banaed and the King would take the Covenant and so all the Cavaliers were turned Presbyterians then wee could single you out as wee pleased Sould. Truely Sir now I thinke you have told mee your very heart at least as Sampson did to Dal●lah but it may be God will hold you short still and not suffer you to wreck all your fury upon us but however wee are resolved to answer you as the three Noble Jewes did the King Dan. 3.17.18 Our God whom wee serve is able to deliver use from the hote fiery furnace of your intended persecutions But if not bee it knowen unto you that wee will not serve God after your minde farther then wee can be perswaded in our owne Consciences of the warrantablenesse thereof nor decline any duty which we are perswaded we owe to God so that you will not get much by your Tyranny onely what your Fore-Fathers did Viz. to be counted a generation of cruell bloody persecutours which in time was their ruine and will in time bee yours if you persist in their steps and that shall assuredly bee made good in due time which is spoken in the seventh Psalm verse 11.12.13 God judge●● the unrighteous and him that 〈…〉 God let 〈…〉 turne he hath 〈◊〉 his were 〈◊〉 bem his 〈…〉 ready he also 〈…〉 weapens for 〈◊〉 that persecute Presb. 〈…〉 you b●d 〈◊〉 to raile Sould. I doe not raile I doe but tell you what the Scripture speaks of such practises and practisers Presb. Put those Scriptures are to le ●pphed to wicked men and not 〈◊〉 Ministers of Christ Sould. Those Scriptures are to be applied to persecutors and such you are by your 〈◊〉 grant therefore 〈◊〉 swe● you as Je●us did the J●w●s Joh 8.39 if said 〈◊〉 yet were 〈…〉 ye 〈◊〉 doe the workes of Ab ●ah●m to s●y●l if you were the Ministers of Christ you would doe the ●orkes of the Ministers of Corist Presb. What workes are they Sould. To fee● the fi●●●e which be hath purchased with his owne bl●o● and not to persecute him in his members old this 〈◊〉 the Ministers of Christ But truly when Martin marre Priest writ that a Presbyter would be ever times worse then a bish of for persecuting I did not 〈◊〉 him yet 〈…〉 thinke you are resolved to make it good so that I may well take up that saying of Stever against you Act. 7.51 52. As your fathers did 〈…〉 you which of ●e-people of God have not your Fathers persecu●ed which followed Christ of whom you are now the betrayers and wurt●erers and Ezek. 20.30 are not ye pollu●ed after thon anner of your Fathers and Lake 11.48 Tre●y you beare w●●nesse and allow the needs of your fathers who kille● the people of God Presb. Who doe you 〈◊〉 by our Fathers 〈◊〉 you thus speake Sould. The Bishops who doe you thinke I should meane else Presb. I have already denyed that we have any dependance upon the bishops Sould. And I have already proved that you have a dependance upon them I hope you will not say that your 〈◊〉 of succession reaches no further then Doctor ●ou●● Doctor Burges or Mr. Walker c. and if it doe reach further then ●ure the Bishops must needs be th● next linck of th●e●ai●e and therefore I must tell you that I cannot bu t●ink that all such of you w●o ●re inlightned re forsworn in not and vouring to ●o●● our your own way of Ministery ●or you have s●om to extirpate root and branch all h●● depends upon that Hierarchy and so the snare which you laid for others hata can be your selves Presb. Who did ●el yasnare for in the Covenant Sould. For two sorts of men First the Bishops to ge them out of the way that so you might reigne in their steads And secondly for these honest men whose to sciences would not suffer them to t●k it that so you might prevent them from b●aring any Office lest they should be impediments to the setting up of your new invented way and Minister but it is a worse matter to be forsworn then to be counted unworthy to beare an O●nce in Church or State Presb. Why doe you call our way and Ministery new seeing it is not new Sould. I confesse it is not new indeed as I said before save onely in termes and cire mst●nces for your way and Ministery is as old as Episcopacy but you have put it into a new dresse that so it might not be mis-trusted to be that old one which you have caused people to sweare to extirpate root● and branch but indeed it is the same but how if people should at la● come to know what it is which they have sworn to extirpate and so rather then they will be forsworn they should indevour in their places to root out your Ministery as some of the brarches of the old stock then it will not be safe for you to ur●● the ●aking of the covenant upon any more But you may rather re●o●ce hat no more have taken it for you have enough against you already if all that have taken it did know what they have sworn to doe and did also make conscience to performe their oath As for my part should ● take it I should judge my selfe bound to doe all tha● ever I could to exterpate your Ministers neither should I think my self discharged of my Oath so long as any appearance of it did remaine Presb. Well you are a very pragmaticall fellow I am glad I have no further to goe with you but take this at parting that it will not be long before wee shall have all such fellows as you 〈◊〉 withall Sould. Then it seems you are so full that you must begin continue and conclude with threats but as for mee I will not threaten you but I will tell you what the Lord saith of persecutorss Psalm 7.15 16. He hath made a pit and digged it and is fal●e in the pit that he made his mischiefe shall return upon his own head and his cruelty shall fall upon his own pate but as for mee I shall pray that the Lord will deliver you from your evill thoughts and from all the evill that he hath denounced against persecutors and let me intreat you to remember the saying of Christ Act. 9.5 It is hard for you to kick against the pricks so Sir wishing your welfare I shall take my leave of you Presb. Farewell Sir FINIS