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A19857 A suruey of certaine dialogical discourses: vvritten by Iohn Deacon, and Iohn Walker, concerning the doctrine of the possession and dispossession of diuels VVherein is manifested the palpable ignorance and dangerous errors of the discoursers, and what according to proportion of God his truth, every christian is to hold in these poyntes. Published by Iohn Darrell minister of the gospell. Darrel, John, b. ca. 1562. 1602 (1602) STC 6285; ESTC S109295 85,966 179

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voice and therein by practise she was verie expert I answer you may tell vs also that the moone is made of a greene cheese but we may chuse whether we will beleue you Yea I for my part will as soone beeleue this as that For how could this silly woman with all her cunning and craft foretell first the ouerthrow of the Israelites 2. that it shoude be on the morrow 3. that in that ouerthrow Saul and his sonnes should be slaine Neither is it credible that she was able to make knowne to Saul the true cause of this feirce wrath of the Lorde ready to be executed vpon him and that his kingdome being rent from him should be giuen to Dauid all which be mentioned in this conference Moreouer if the witch did vse a meere cosinage and that she herselfe did see nothing it should seeme this art of sorcery consisteth only in the opinion of men and that in very deede witches can doe no more by Spirits neither haue any greater familiarity with thē then all others haue But then wherefore doth the scripture condemne them for counselling with spirits Deut 18 11 1 Sam. 28 7 8. and mention theire hauing of familiar spirits For these reasons I thinke it stands better with reason to ioyn with the vniuersall consent of all the learned then to follow M. Skott his singuler opinion though the discourse be priuiledged Hitherto for your refutation The shutting vp of this Dialogue alleadgeth some authorities for Not assuming bodies none of all which make to the purpose Peter Lumbard propoundeth a double question pag. 127 128. Mag. sent lib 2 distinct 8. first whether diuels do substantially enter into the bodies of men the second whether they essentially slip into their mindes To the first he answers doubtfully but doth not deny it as these Discoursers doe To the second negatiuely Then you produce the testimony of Gennadius Beda Augustine which likewise deny an essentiall entrance into the minde But what is this to essentiall entring into the body These are two things distinct and if you had not purposed fraud you would not haue alleadged authorityes denying an essentiall entrance into the mindes to disprooue essentiall entrance into the body Touching the rest of your testimonies I am ashamed to spend time in rehearsing them I graunt with Chrisostome the diuel cannot compell to sinne but suggest with Lyra that he is not formally in any as the forme of that body wherein he is with Musculus That he hath no absolute authority but a subiected seruitude with Gregory that the power of Sathan is neuer v●iust though his will be alwaies w●ck●d with T●ls●egistus that a● human● soule cannot receau● any other to mak● one pe●s●n with i● excepted only the sonne of god then an humane b●●●● I graunt you a l which the●e testimonies ●u●u●n but what game you therby for strengthening your cause It is great folly to trouble your Reader with such impertinent wordes in the last place comes Reig Sk●t to make all ●ure In●eede ●is testimony is pregnant for you page 129. But in the wordes you cite out of him be conteyned two infamous sentences That the Diu●ls cann●t by any meanes make them selues seene that to assume a bo●y for appea●ance o● other seruice is all one a● if the spirit leaving the ●ssence of a spir●t sh uld become co●porall For so is the meaning of his wordes And what is his reason why forsooth the diuel by his nature is a spirit and therefore inv●●ible insensible and so this is contrarie to his nature By this reason there was neuer apparition of holy angels for they be likewise spirits invi●●ble insensible c. Surely they which made trees in times past to call parliaments spake with as great probabillity as M. Skot hath a●●irmed this as is apparant by that already set downe A Suruey of the Fift Dial●gue The fift Dialogue treateth of Transformation the second speciall of Corporall poss ssio As if either by assumptiō of bodies or chaunge of forme a●l corporall possession were wrought as the nature of generals doth require to be fully comprehended in the whole sume of their specials And as if all transformation were bodely possessiō which is as vntrue as the former distribution vnskilfull The conclusion propounded is That Spirits diuells cannot essentially transf●rm them selues into any true naturall b●die In which sentence these Discours●rs vnderstand Transformation to be a perfect change of one ●ssence into an other as if a spirit vtterly chaunging his nature cea●●ng to be a spirit should be made in verie essence a man or some such other thing or else that he not transforming him●elfe but transforming an other should change the essence of a man into the essence of a wo●fe or some like nature In which is to be n●ted a double absurdity First that they di●pute as a ●oubt which neuer entred into any man for an● thing I can finde to ma●e any questi●n of to wit wh●t h r s●irits m●ght p●rf●ctly leaue their ●wn● nature throughly change th●mselu●s into an oth●● beeing Indeed this were a happy Transformation for them if they could cease to be diuels and so escape theire condemnation But neither wiseman nor foole I thinke euer dreamed of such a thing Secondly that they conf●und all apparitions a●d appea●ances with their transformation as if the diuel could not cast sensible shewes of things before vs yea and true bodies themselues without either transforming himselfe or some other thing into them And thus by this occasion they runne i●to their former question againe sometimes making their Transformation to be nothinge else but an assuminge of bodies eyther in truth or in shew Concerning which sufficient hath bene said in suruey of the former dialogue And what the spirits power is in this behalf is apparant by the Egiptian sorcerers rods turned at least in shewe into serpents by the froggs and the waters turned into blood by the apparition of Samuels bodie Wisd 17 Math. 14.26 by those fearefull sights which troubled the Egiptians yea by the disciples of our Sauiour Christ thē selues which fearing they had seene a spirit when they beheld our Sauiour walking on the waters declare what the iudgment of the Church was then concerning apparition of spirits in sensible forms neither doth our Sauiour reproue that opinion but only shewes there was no cause of feare he beinge no such as they imagined Therefore I neede not trouble the Reader with discussing How the diuell is transformed into an angel of light or how Nebuchadnezzar became an oxe or in ripping vp any of that discourse following onlie let vs consider that which is alleadged from our Sauiour Christes speach pag 156. 157 Luk. 24 38. A spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me haue VVhich wordes seeme to make against this assuming of bodies by spirits humane that is like to mans For if they doe take vppon them sensible humane bodies how
though I sawe you not not for any feare of your vrchins skyn wherewith you thinke you are sufficiently armed but for that I thinke it better to passe by you in silence then to vtter that which you deserue to heare and to lay you open in your colours I will only demaunde this of you how you durst dedicate your treatise to the Right Honorable Lord Keeper to the Lorde Cheife Iustice of England and other the cheif Iudges of the land by this meanes to occasion them to enquyre of your person I say no more let this suffice for answer of that Epistle of yours to their Honours as I promised you Yet I must needes tell you that wher you say we sport our selues in brāding our brethren with the odious name of Formalists you say vntruly We accoūt them Formalists which forme and fāshion themselues like vnto this world not they which are crucified vnto the world and the world vnto them albeit in some things they dissent from vs in opinion And instead of brandinge such with this or any other odious name if they be of the auncient we call and reverence them as fathers if others we tearme and loue them as brethren From these and the cause they speake of it beinge holy and good if this couple be with D●mas quite fallen to the embracinge of this pre●ent w●rld become Apostates reuolters and back-slyders whereof they say they looke euery hower to heare let thē know that this Apostacy of theirs is not the least of their sinnes nor easyest repented of But to let all this pass● con●erninge your cause if you will as you say be content that it be tryed by the fire of God his truth you shall d●e well For y●ur forme by Dialogue and other order in followinge the cause it is as your pleasure I know none ready to excepte against it If you bring truth it shall be acceptable in what forme so ever For your Queres whether her Maiesty hath authority to establish in her dominions an order for printing with priuiledge belike you were at lea●ure when you mo●ued this Quere to spend words in a need lesse question neuer denied or d●ubted of All Princes haue authoritie in their seuerall kingdomes to constitute some conv●nient order in this behalfe and this care is both holy and good How can the whole lump possiblie not be sowred if everie man might thru●t in his leav●n at his plesure But then you demaund furthe● whether euery one be not stri●tlie bound to obserue this order I answer every one is strictlie bound to obserue the meaning of the law wh ch is to suppresse falshood wickednes But when such officer● shall come in place to be sett ouer this ●harge as no Prince to the world can alwaies avoyd it which insteade of suppressing error sinne will according to their ow●e deceaued hum●rs supp●esse truth and v●rtue heere the meaning of the law is to be looked in to practised and the letter is not precisely to be stood vp●n which is abused by vnworthie persons to a wrong purpose Is not the end of all lawes the good of the common wealth Should one ●r some few mens abused authoritie spoile all the subiects yea the Prince herselfe of the cleare vnderstanding of any necessarie profit If nothing may come to the governors eares but what it priuiledged by the high Preists the soldiers may say Christ was stol●n away by his disciples or what they will else Therefore when m●n fa●le in care to examine before printing it is requisite such bookes sh●uld be examined after printing that the meaninge of th● law may be observed and the people with ●rrour not seduced You see in the c●urts there is a writ of errour and the honorable Iudges suffer willinglie a sentence wrung from them by any deceipt vpon better proceeding to be reversed Yea there is an appeale to the high courte of Chauncery though law hath established a determination in t●e severall Courts Neither doth her Maiesty her self of her gratious go●dn●ss● disdain to receaue the supplications of her poore subiects tha● think the●selues iniured elswhere And yet strict course of law doth not allowe such proceedings but rather inhibiteth it commaunding vs to stand to the definitiue sentence of the Iudges Now what else is a truth published in print without priu●ledge but a supplication to the Prince and people for re●●●sse of her That is truths iniu ies nay rather for redresse of their ow●e iniuryes which are endaungered by allowance of trumpery to abandon truth so ●o cast themselues into those manifould mischeifs which proceede from errour Good men and wise and most obedient to their gouernours haue in all ages and do at this day in all places of Christendom practise acc●rding to this rule or else God his truth w●uld be in pittifull case Are not you then egregious Sycophants which doe vehemently con●emn all the godly vpon so foolish a c●nceyt Are not such as you a flattering poyson to Princes which would transforme them from gratious gouern●urs into ●atefull Tyrants It were not amisse that such skilfull workm●n which cā m●ke a Bull for Phalaris should ta●t of their cunning first themselue What Tirant when he hath done one iniu y will not suffer him so much a to greiue for his wrong would you haue truth wounded not allow her to complayne Indeed Tereus when he had deflowred ●hylome●a cut out her tongue and this earnestnes of these Discoursers in this b●half giue shrewd suspition there is something in the winde wher fore it should be beho●vefull for them that not only mens hands might be kept from printing but also the mouthes of all that know them might be surely lo●ked vp that them selues might keepe the keyes The remainder of your Epistle shewes the order of the Discourse Your Alphabeticall table with the Seuerall names of the Seuerall Aut●ors and their Seuerall authorities we haue touched b fore Yet further take this with you that as Iehu caused the heads of the 70. so●nes of Ahab to be layd on two heapes in the gates of Iezrehel so these names you produce be no bands of frends ready to stand in your def●nce but ā h ape to shew how many you haue expresly slaine in this cause infinite others being also wounded in them Your arguments wil saue me a labour for I shall neede no other collection of your absurdities iust s● many in gr●sse your first dialogue excepted as your arguments be Your Analisis is hansomly checkered one part within an other like a motley cloke h g. For first you say the diuel his power is either a power of possession or obsession when possession Obsession in such mens writings as treat theis poynts a●e vsed for all one Then Possession in your discourses you make only to be outward and yet Mentall Possession must grow from it as figgs vpon thornes If you say you m●an● possessiō vulgarly neither is that true for