such a cause take heed you be not found a servant of men Answer But if any in authority haue cōmaunded you this worke did they also commaund you to rayle and revile your antagonist as you call him in such manner as you doe It is lamentable that any in authority in such a Christian Church should either commaund any such thing or allowe of it being done But it is more lamentable to obey The time was when you did well employ your selfe against the Common adversaryes You did then runne well What letted you that you did not hold on in that course What hath provoked you to turn your pen from them and to whet it now the second time against those whom you call and should in truth acknowledg your brethren Doe you feare any violence from the Papists by holding on against them because perhaps of some former experience Indeede you may well feare such violence from them and be secure touchyng all danger from us because you haue learned from the Apothegme after mentioned of D. Elmer late Bishop of London and much more from all experiēce that you may justly feare your life and cuttyng of your throat in the company of one Papist but that no such thing is ever to be feared amongst ten thowsand of those whom it pleased him to call prescisians G. Powel In divers respects I feared to plead in so high a Court before such judges etc. Yet the equity and holines of the cause moved me etc. Answer Why should you feare being commaunded Would not your comnaunders beare you out It may be they will before men but who shall plead for you before God except you repent Take heed you commend not that to be equall and holy which agreeth not with the wayes of God G. Powel I presently resolued to stand in the gap and breach between our brethren and vs. Answer This resolution upon bare commaundement of a man it may be also contrary to the likyng of some to whom you are more bound was too present to be sound How haue you stod in the gap breach By treading it down to make it lower that wild beasts or at the least strang cattell may the more easily break in to devoure the Lords vine and to eate up the Lords people as it were bread G. Powel Albeit I knew my brethrens affections to be somewhat unkind and their pens foule and shamefull Answer Whereby knew you their unkindnes and foulnes towards you Indeed they haue seene and dayly doe see your unkindnes towards them yea towards the Lord in oppossing your selfe to the Lords cause and to them in seeking therof and that in this bitter manner yea for the foulnes of your pen you might justly feare the like measure from them againe to you But God forbid that for that we should sinne against God and cease praying for you G. Powel Seeing it lyeth not in our powers to make them modest peacable and that we are called to serue God and his Church which we are bound to doe in good and evill report Answer You should first haue proved us immodest and unpeaceable before you had used these wordes God giue those graces to you and us The serving of God and of his Church is not in rayling reprochfull speaches in sharpnes and bitternes in untrue and unjust collections directly contrary to the words of our brethren But what meāe you by good and evell report If as patients it is well if as agents it is not so But though by your booke I haue little cause yet I will take you in the better sence G. Powel I pray our heavenly Father to forgiue them any injury etc. Answer Before prayers you should lay aside all wrath of heart and bitternes of word Math. 5.22 1 Tim. 2.8 Pray also sor the forgivnes of the wrongs you doe to vs both in this booke and also in your latine treatise De adiaphoris I haue not with drawne my selfe from this worke Gab. Powel no not for the estimatiō reverence I haue of the graue judgments of your honors If you had duely reverenced their Honors Answ you would haue feared the offering vnto them such a present of raylings vnjust collections etc. As if they had been voyd of judgement not able to discerne of such accusations G. Powel I mayntaine here the glory of God and honor of our Prelats Answer As our Saviour said They shall excommunicate you yea the time shall come that whosoever killeth you shall thinke that he doth God service Ioh. 16.2 So this answerer thinketh that he glorifieth God by rayling on his cause servāts As for the Honor of our Prelats you should first haue been on a sure ground for the lawfulnes thereof before you had taken upon you like a champion the defence thereof 2. Even a good cause is rather overthrowne then vpheld by such meanes of scoffing and rayling as in this this booke you haue vsed Thus much for the answer to the Preface of M. Powels THE NEXT THING TO BE CONSIDERED is his marginall Notes vpon the preface of the author The first note with a I passe by G. Powel b This pretense unto the Christian reader is because they would not seeme to be petitioners unto the Parliament Answer What a strange collection is this Haue we expresly directed all the said argumēts vnto the Parliament house and yet would we not seeme to be petitioners unto thē Nay rather sith this answerer thus carpeth at these words the Christian reader M. Powell maketh the Parliament no christian assembly gatthering from the humble petition of the Author of those Argumentes to the Christian Reader etc. that he would not seeme to be Petitioner to the Parliment may not this be better gathered that the answerer distinguisheth the christian readers from the Parliament and the Parliament from them and so maketh the Parliament no christian assembly But why did the author use those wordes the christian reader The reason seemeth double 1 because he did so account of every one in the Parliament house 2 because he thought that those arguments might come to the handes of other Christian readers then onely of Parliament men G. Powel c The supplicants make the profession of the gospell and all religion to consist in refusing cap surplice crosse etc. Great cry litle wooll Answer This etc. After the word crosse is well added For otherwise although we hold those things to be matters of religion yet never any of us did affirme all religion to cōsist in thē without this etc. therfore this is an unchristian slaunder and to speake according to the answerers learning in Aristotles Eleuchs a fallacy ab eo quod est secundum quid ad id quod est simpliciter The adage in the end of this note is too homely for that Honorable Court to whom the answerer speaketh as being taken from swyne
those that haue been through their raylings and suggestions against us hardly perswaded of us may at the last see and acknowledge our innocency if not yet in the world to come when the longer the equity of our cause hath been obscured and disgraced the more glorious it shal be made when some of our adversaries without repentance in the meane time shall be throwne into the place where is weeping and gnashing of teeth psal 129.4 and where to be indeed is more then only to dreame thereof Yea the same righteous Lord shall certaynely one day cut the cords of the wicked They that hate Sion shall be ashamed and turned backward G. Powel Wee still thinking most of these men to sinne of ignorance cease not to pray unto God O Lord open the eyes of these men and lay not this sinne to their charge See how this man tumbleth up and downe and how he contradicteth himselfe Reply Hath he not before expresly charged all of us contradiction to doe that which we doe for carnall respectes Hath he not also in the same place I meane in his preface as expresly sayd speaking not particularly of some of us but indefinitly of all that it cannot be denyed but that presumptuously and wilfully we contend with the Magistrate impugnyng his authority etc. How often else wher also doth he object unto us wilfullnes obstinacy etc Yea in the very next Argument the note with d chargeth us with wilfulnes and superstitious obstinacy yet here he sayth that most of us sinne of ignorance If also he and other prayed in truth that God would open our eyes then let thē not plucke our tongues out of our heads and so thirst for our bloud as many speeches in this answer seeme to bewray then to doe G. Powel In Esters time all the Iewes were in danger to haue been swalowed up by Haman if Queene Hester had not interceded I hope the Supplicāts thinke not our Church to be so desperat neither outwardly nor spiritually The whole Church of one place Reply and a whole kingdome may fare the worse for the sinne of some one yea somtims long after the death of him Iosh 7 11. 2 Sam. 21. by whom that sinne was committed All Israell for the cruelty of Saule towards the Gibeonits who yet were not Israelits were punished even in their bodily states long after the death of Saule May we then feare nothing to our whole Church and kingdom for the hard dealing of the Prelats towards the soules of many thowsands of our owne Nation Let no man deceaue us with vayne words Blessed is the man that feareth alwayes There is danger in security Ephes 5.6 Pro. 28.14 there is much safety in a godly feare As for the spirituall danger of the Church it appeareth by the decay of the spirituall bewty and by the encrease of the spirituall deformitie that is of ignorance of impiety in those places already which are depriued of their good Ministers How will these thinges increase in continuance of time Yet it may be that as the more the Aegyptians by oppression laboured to suppress the Israelits the more they multiplyed so the more that Prelats shall oppresse and silence us the more God shall change the mindes of the conformitans themselues to dislike those thinges which yet a litle they yeeld unto If they shall hold their peace yet God shall open the mouthes of children to giue him prayse and to beare witnes unto his truth If they also be silent the Lord can make even the stones to crye G. Powel The examples of Ioseph and Nicodemus are altogether impertinent For neither had Pilat any reason to deny the buriall of Christs body neyther is the ministers request concernyng crosse and surplice of such importance as the buriall of Christs body for it is not true that they contend about whole Christ Reply The Argument speaketh of the honorable buriall of Christs body the answerer onely of the buriall leaving out honorable Is not this sophistry Though perhaps Pilate had no reason to deny the buriall of Christ yet Christ beyng put to death in part for supposed treason Sophistry he had carnall reason to deny honorable buriall the more because of the spite and mallice of the Scribes and Pharises against Christ Iohn 19.12 For as before when they sayd he that maketh himselfe a King speaketh against Cesar he made the more hast to judgment against him so he had cause in feare of their like hatred and mallice to be the slower in granting his body to them to be buryed who he knew in respect of their honorable persons and places would bury it in the most honorable manner they could As Pilat had cause to feare the mallice of the Scribes and Pharises heerin so also and much more had Ioseph Nicodemus cause to feare the same by performyng the least honorable service vnto Christ especially Nicodemus being one of the same coate might feare it If the Ministers request concerning Cross and Surplice be not of such importance as the buryall of Christs body this weakeneth not but addeth strenght to the Argument For the lesse it is the more easily it may be granted and the more easily it may be granted the more boldly it may be sued for THE SITX ARGVMENT If God respected the teares of reprobate Hagar in want of water of this life for Ishmaell and of the women cruelly used by their husbands Gen. 21.16 Malachi 2 13 14 Mat 15 22. If Christ also pitied many in their bodily miseryes yea some that being heathen were in that respect litle better then doggs then much more this Honorable Court ought to pity the mone and lamentation of many Congregations deprived of their faithfull Pastors for want of the water and bread of eternall life which sometime the sayd Pastors were wont to giue unto them But the first is true Ergo. The second ought to be performed consequently the Honorable High Court of Parliament ought to speake for those Ministers and people that doe so mourne Marginall notes G. Powel a The refractarie ministers ought to haue had compassion on their sheepe and not desperatly to haue forsaken them for crosse surplice We must so haue compassion one our sheepe Reply that we wound not our owne soules We must as hath been sayde eschew evill and doe good not commit evill to doe good As gold may be bought to deere so may the good of our people That which is heere said against us touching crosse and surplice may also be sayd touching images if we were commaunded to worship them Our yeelding also would be so offensiue that we should not doe that good that we intend by yeelding We may also feare the hardenyng of our heartes by yeelding as well as we see the hearts of other by litle sinnes to be hardned for greater The note with b is often anserwred G. Powel as
great difference betwixt bonum bene good and well iustum and iuste that which is iust and justly For he teacheth that good just things may be done by evill and ujust men which haue not the habit eyther generally of goodnes or perticularly of Iustice but he sayth that only good and just men which haue the habit of goodnes and justice Marc 6 20 can doe things well and iustly And this distinction is agreable to holy writ For Herod is saide to haue done many thinges viz. that were in themselues good the like may be sayd of Saule and divers other But certaine it is that evil men can doe any good or just thīg well and iustly This commeth onely from the spirit of regeneration and from a true faith wrought thereby without which it is impossible to please God For as much therfore Heb 11 6. as this answerer doth here testifie generally of the Supplicants that they doe discourse in this Argument not onely of many worthy and Christian poyntes but also worthily and Christianly yea very worthily and Christianly contraritie yea also for as much as he setteth this downe for a certeynty saying certeynly how doth this or can this agre with all the reproch full termes before given by him unto them of Schismatiks Refractaryes wilfull contenders with the Magistrate presumptuous censurers wilfull and malicious confronters of the Magistrat boasters lyars impudent blind and ignorant persons false Prophets fowers of sedition disturbers of the Church etc For can it be sayd of such men and that for a certeynty that they discourse very worthily and Christianly of sundry things Let it not be sayd that to discourse is but a matter of wordes For their is the same reason of words and works No man can say well and rightly that Iesus is the Lord 1 Cor 12 3. but by the Holy Ghost Though an evill man therfore may speake many good and Christian things yet onely good men speake good and Christian things well and christianly G. Powel Doth God plague us because of the proceedinges against the refractary Ministers And not rather for our horrible sinnes of security pride unthankfulnes etc This is certeyne and the rest unproved I haue told you Reply of your mistaking your Logike before The author disputeth not perticularly of the sinnes that moved the Lord to visite vs etc but of the generall end wherfore he did both correct us but also magnifie his mercy towards us The which he applied to the particular poynt of favor for the Ministers molested Notwithstanding to answer your question though it cannot be denyed that for other sinnes the Lord hath so heavily scourged us yet why should the suppressing of the Ministery of the gospell be concluded Was not to receiue and heare the Disciples of our Saviour which were sent out by two two but for a time to prepare men for the gospell so great a sinne that our Saviour pronounceth that it should be easier for Sodom and Gonorrha in the day of iudgement then for such a City Mat. 10 14. 15 as should not so receyue and heare his Disciples and shall the silencyng and depriving of so many Ministers setled in perticular Congregations and all ready blessed in their labors be accounted no sinne Yea not onely the silencyng of them etc but also providyng that they shall haue no other meanes whereby to maynteyne themselues their wiues and children God open your eyes to see and moue your hearts so to cōsider hereof that yee may not flatter your selues but see your sinne herein Yea because your selfe speake of unthankfulnes as one speciall sinne provokyng Gods indignation what greater unthankfullnes can there be then so to intreate his servants whom he hath so graced and blessed Iudge your selues yee Reverend Fathers that are principall actors in this matter that yee may not be iudged of the Lord. 1 Cor 11.31 Take heed I humbly beseech you in the feare of God take heed I say in time least fire breake forth frō the Lord and there be none to quench the same In the destruction of Ierusalem by Nebuchadnetzer 2 Chron 36 16 and the carying of the people away captiue to Babell and in the last desolation of the same City by the Romans the like misusing of the Lords Prophets is set downe as one principall cause therof Mat 21.35 23 37 And who I beseech you in such misusage of the Lords messengers had alwayes a principall hand Had not the Priests of the Lord that should haue done the contrary Serch the scriptures and see if they bare not witnes in this behalfe If God once set things in order before you Psal 50.12 shall it be sufficient to pleade that the Ministers of his word against whom yee haue so proceeded were Schismatikes refractaryes etc. Alas alas this wil be but a weake plea. Yee haue herd before that the Prophets were so termed Lastly concernyng the particular sinnes by you mentioned and other the like from whence doe they more proceede then frō the restraint of the word by the Preaching wherof they would be eyther repressed or restrayned If the libertie and free passage of the gospell worke an holy feare humility and duetifull thankfulnes yea if the preaching of the word doe restrayne the most wicked and reprobate themselues that they bite in their lips hold their hands and refrayne from many sinnes which otherwise they would commit as it cannot be denyed doe not security pride unthankfulnes all other sinnes come from the restraint of the word The answer to the Second supposed Argument in this 17 conteyned hath in part been answered before because it hath been proved that we are no Schismaticall Ministers Touching the rest of the sayd answer we deny not but that there are other meanes wherby that Honorable Court may testifie their thankefulnes yet this hindreth not but that this may also be one yea if it be granted that there are other then by vertue of relation this also must be granted to be one Yea if mercy to the soule be more then mercy to the body as the soule is better then the body and the misery of the soule greater then of the body and cruelty to the soule worse then to the body then it followeth that this is a speciall principall meanes wherby to testifie their thankfulnes His answer to the third supposed argument in the 17 Argument hath also been answered The same I say of his answer to the 5 supposed argument Onely therin the answerers censure of the Parliament if they should restore us is to be observed viz. that they shall not onely attract guilt and remorse of Conscience but also preiudice their Honorable age and make their names reprochfull to all posterity This toucheth not only the Lords of the upper house and body of the Commons in the Netherhouse but also his most excellent Majestie without whose Princely authoritie nothing can be
he would eat no cheese were this moderat severity What then may be sayd of them that cast out other from the inheritāce of the Lord whose labours God hath blessed to the joye of many an elect soule that only for not doyng that against which they can yeeld a farre better reason from God his will revealed in his word then any man can doe for his not eating of cheese or for any other the like action from the secret instinct of nature G. Powel The author of these arguments is not afrayd to perswade provoke your Honorable Court these are his owne words to intercede with his Majestie that he would compell the Reverend Prelats to surcease their rigorous and cruell dealing The Apostle biddeth vs to provoke one another to loue to good works Heb. 10.24 Therefore why might not the author of these arguments use this word unto the Parliament for so good a worke as in all the said arguments is intended But for the latter words of M. Powel to compell the Reverend Prelats to surcease their rigorous and cruell dealing etc. Where doth the author use them The drifte of all the arguments insinuateth so much If it be but insinuation then all the words before set downe are not the expresse owne words of the author as M. Powell hath said 2 It may be taken for granted that the sayd Prelats are so resolute for mainteyning of their Hierarchie Discipline Ceremonyes and other conformity that they will not yeeld one inche yea not to his Majestie exceept they be compelled Gab. Powel The Prelats haue soberly and temperatly caryed themselues in their proceedings Answ We will all with one accord most thankfully acknowledg this when we shall find it In the meane tyme we do acknowledge it comparatiuly true in respect of their wils and desires For by this answer written by their authority and by divers other tokens it is apparant that they would gladly provoke us to giue them further advantage against vs and also that for these causes they would doe more thē they doe yet I speake not of all I doe unfainedly confess that their is great difference of affections amongst them it respect of us they would I say doe more then they doe If they feared not the people No but if his Majestie his most Honorable counsell would giue them leaue and if they feared not as much indignation from his Highnes as now they seeme to be in grace with him and as much opposition by the honorable Counsell as now perhaps they seeme to haue furtherance by some of them that do not so well understand the cause G. Powel Their obstinat superstion hath worthely made them subject to the proceedings of the Bishops What Superstition And obstinate superstition Answ We were never before to my remembrance charged with superstition much lesse with obstinat superstition but haue alwayes been accounted great adversaryes to superstitiō Yea we hate it with a perfect hatred yea our soules abhorre and detest the least superstition much more obstinat superstition as much as the best of them doe hate it yea much more then some of them it is one of our reasons against some poynts of conformitie that we judge them superstitious How then may we be charged with superstition Yea with obstinat superstition But what if we were superstitious May we therfore be punished cōtrary to law or aboue that that the law requyreth Were not this to ad transgression to transgression and to punish sinne with sinne We may not doe evill that good may come thereof G. Powel The author cryeth out as if the gospell by such proceedings were banished Gods worship prophanely adulterated to the eternall perill of many thousand soules Where is this outcry It is very low and soft Answer in some secret corner or written in very small letters that no man can see or heare of it The author might well cry out that the gospell is in part banished by the suppression of so many able godly faithfull paynefull ministers that Gods worship is in part corrupted both in the doctrine especially sithens this late vehement strivyng by our Prelats for conformitie as shal be afterwards touched and also in the other publike exercises of religion by mixture of humane inventions Ceremonyes and Traditions Yea and that heerby we are in danger to haue the candlesticke removed and the kingdome of Heaven taken from us and given to a Nation more worthy then we except by repentance doing our first works Revel 2.5 Yea making our last works more then our first vers 19. We doe in time prevent this judgment G. Powel The Parliament is able to convince him heerin of malepart Sycophancy and manifest untruth Answer I would such accusers notwithstanding their such threats of the Parliaments kindnes would stand with vs that we might be admitted to stand with them at the barre of the Parliament for triall of this accusation and whether the author of those Arguments or this answerer haue abused that most worthy Senat. G. Powel This author feareth no rebuke of shame for his vnconscionable dealyng Answer Let this unsconscionable dealing be shewed in the author or else let this answerer be ashamed G. Powel This man speaketh frō Cimmerian darknes by concealing his nāe Answer Then also by the same reason many books of the scripture the writers whereof haue concealed their names were written from Cimmerian darknes The like may be sayd of many other most worthy Theologicall bookes without name of any writer Much more may the same be sayd of the booke intitled SCOTTISH GENEVATING ENGLISH SCOTIZING and many other such disgracefull and scornefull books published without name of any author against the desired reformation and all the favorers thereof It is also the severitie of the Prelats that maketh vs the rather to conceale our names If we had as much liberty to publish our books for our selues as every rayler hath to put forth any thing against us Yea as there is for Printing of many profane filthy scurrilous lascivious ungodly bookes authorised by some of them you should quickly see our names The author is bold to offer his writing even to your Honors Gab. Powel to provoke you to supplicat to his excellent Majestie in behalfe of their cause or else to determine it of your selues Answ The author never desired this determynation you speake of by the Parliament as though that would or might be authenticall without his Majesties Royall assēt but onely that his Majesty thereby seeing the equity of the cause and the affection of his people therunto might also be the more easily perswaded to vouchsafe his princly favour towards them therein G. Powel I was cōmaunded by some in authority to peruse and breifely to refute these Arguments which at the first I was unwillyng to take vpon me If you be so ready to be commaunded to write against
either of mallice or to encrease his volume shall be discovered in the defence of that 8 Argument Concernyng the Arguments themselues may it please the Christian reader first of all to take a generall veiwe of the generall fraudes of the answerer in his answer vnto them His first generall fraude is that he setteth upon these Arguments as though in them the mayne cause betwixt the Prelats and vs were handled Whereas the purpose of the author was not to informe the mindes and judgmēts of the Parliament but taking that to be already done by other books written in that behalfe the rather because he did already see them to deale in the cause he labored altogether to quicken their affections and to whet and encrease their zeale to be the more earnest in that cause of the equity and sinceritie whereof by former bookes touching their iudgments they were abundantlie informed and perswaded And heerin he had the more reason to provoke their godlie zeale in respect of the manifold mightie adversaries the cause had and because he knew that the sayd adversaryes wovld make strong opposition therevnto and labor what they might to hinder the same 2 Because the mayne controversie betwixt the Prelats and vs is not handled in these Arguments therefore he insulteth mightily and often almost in every page he objecteth petitionem principii begging of the question vnto us as though because the controversie were not handled in the sayd arguments therefore it were not handled else where But sith it is handled by other whose books reasons are not yet answered neither ever will be substantially therefore this is but a vayne boasting His thyrd generall fraud is that himselfe committeth the same fault in all his answer that he objecteth to the author of the arguments For whereas the said author vpon sufficient proofe made of the cause by other bookes doeth make this the generall conclusion of all the arguments that it would please the whole State graciously to releeue the ministers oppressed for that cause etc this answerer maketh this his conclusion that it would please the State to releeue the refractary and schismaticall Ministers So never prooving us neither any other having ever proved us to be refractary schismaticall etc. except every Bishop be a Pythagoras and doe alwayes speake oracles which they seeldome doe yet he taketh it for granted that we are such Huic arenoso fundamento tota strues et moles sequentis Praelatici responsi innititur Vpon this sandie foundation the whole frame and lumpe of all the Prelaticall answer following doth relye M. POWEL TO THE TITLE OF THE Arguments G. Powel All the Arguments following be common excepting one or two and may be urged for popery or any other heresy etc. Are Popish or other herericall Preists ministers of Christ Answer in grace and favor with Christ etc. Doe the Angels so long after and reioyce in their Ministery as in ours Doe they as truely interprete the mysteries of God to eternall life as Ioseph interpreted dreames for this life May they as truely be commēded for the spirituall deliverance of many soules as Ionathan did worke the bodily deliverance of the Israelits etc. The like may be sayd of the other arguments How then are they so common as the answerer chargeth them to be This beginnyng sheweth what we are to looke for in the rest of the answer The first Argument The Ministers supplicated for are evident to be the true Ministers of Christ 1 By the speciall hatred of all wicked men against them Iohn 15.19 2 By their godly life 3 By their gifts and by the blessing of God upon their labours Rom. 10.15 1 Cor. 9.2 2 Cor. 3.2 3. Therefore the State ought to releeue thē being now oppressed because that which is done for them or denyed unto them is done for Christ or denyed unto Christ Exod. 16 2. 1 Sam. 8.7 Luc. 10.16 Math. 25.40 Gal. 3.25 Ephe. 5.30 THE MARGINALL NOTES OF M. POWEL upon the former Argument a Gab. Powel That is but justly omitted that makes nothing to the purpose Answ The word gospell signifiyng the preaching of the gospell the furtherance or hinderance therof maketh to purpose in this matter or else nothing doth G. Powel b There be other Ministers of the gospell Answer I acknowledge it with all thankes to God and whatsoever difference of judgment or practise there be betwixt them and us in the present controversie yet I loue and reverence them for their giftes and paynes But what then Though there were ten times as many more and every one as sufficient as the best yet these tymes requyre all Num. 11.29 2 Tim. 4.1 2 Tim. 3.1 The note with c I passe by When they shew our proofes not to proue our intent we will either strenghten them or bring better G. Powel d Palpable ignorance Many lay men I are hated of the world 2 lead an unblamable life 3 haue sufficient gifts ergo They are Ministers of Christ Double Sophistry 1 Whereas the author saith those Ministers that are so hated of the world etc Answer are the Ministers of Christ this answerer saith they not those Ministers that are so qualified etc. 2 He leaveth altogether out the last poynt taken from the successe of their Ministery whose arte it is so to clip words I neede not to note G. Powel e They haue ill neighbours that commend themselues But I could wish they were such indeed albeit they are generally noted to be great teachers and practisers of vsury Wee haue such ill neightours that as by their dayly false accusations and slaunders against us Reply doe urge us to pleade our owne innocency as Moses Samuell Ieremy Paule and Christ himselfe having the like neighbovrs were vrged to justifie themselues Usury cannot be so truely proved to be taught and practised by us as all men see many conformitans to be usurers Symonists non residents gamesters potcompanions etc. Yea and to defend also some of these things G. Powel f Why doe you not name them Reply It is needles The namyng also of such Prelats as haue commended those whom they haue deprived may perhaps purchase them as much ill will and hatred with their greater Prelats as Nicodemus and some other had envy with the Pharises for speaking any good word in behalfe of Christ g All this evidence can make but a conjecture and that scarse probable seeing many heretikes papists etc. Gab. Powel Haue suffered more then all this comes to for their heresies and superstition Thus may the suffering of all Martyrs be eluded Reply For heretikes have suffered as much etc. But marke heere his cunnyng The author speaketh of suffering wrongs indignities etc. M. Powel speaketh of suffering more leaving out the substantiue of the comparatiue adjectiue more Sophistry If he doe understand the former substantiue wrongs etc then heretikes Papists suffer not more For they are
into which things the Angels desire to behold Reply 1 Pet. 1.12 must of necessity haue relation to the thinges before said to be shewed by them that had preached the gospell For there is no other antecedent to the relatiue into which Therefore the consequence is not to be so scorned by any that knoweth a consequence Heere also the answerer abuseth his reader by wrangling with the conclusion and leaving out the principall confirmation thereof Ephes 3.10 Where it is expresly sayd that Paule had receaved the ministery of the gospell to the intent that unto Principalityes and powers in the heavenly places now not before in that manner might be knowne by the Church let that be also noted the manifold wisdome of God The other two notes touching schisme and contention haue been answered and shall afterwards be answered more fully yet here I ad that he doth unjustly heere say their contention For we contend not with them but they with vs. We seeke to take nothing from them they seeke and take all from us Abraham for peace with Lot his yonger and nepheu was cōtent to part from his owne right but these are such holdfasts of their rites and ceremonies that for peace with us they will not part with an inch though they get nothing by the whole No marveill for they will not parte with that which is the right onely of Christ Let it be therefore here noted how unfitly in the title pag the answerer hath prefixed the sentence of Abraham Gen 13.18 Let there be no contention etc. Further answer to the 2 Argument G. Powel This Argument is ambiguous and savors of a paradox For how will they understand it That Angels should be ministers of the gospell Impossible Or that they should be converted thereby etc Absurd they never sinned or that they might learne to knowe the wisdome of God So they doe by all other creaturs and actions of God Reply No paradox at all Neither had the answerer any cause to make the two first questions if he had considered the places alleadged That which he opposeth to the third against knowledge of the wisdome of God by the gospell etc may as well be opposed to mens knowledge of the wisdome of God by his word For they are also taught the wisdome of God by his creatures and works psa 19.1 Rom. 1.1920 The further meanyng of this argument in any speciall manner differing from other I leaue to the author himselfe who is able no doubt to defend his meanyng or ready to yeeld better reason to the contrary But be it that he had no other meanyng in this poynt then other men haue yet the common doctrin of the scriptures touching Angels in this behalfe maketh the argument good For the Angels of themselues know not who be elect and who be reprobat This knowledge before calling is proper to the Lord. 2 Tim. 2.19 The election of men is made knowne to the Angels by their calling and conversion wherein it is sayd the Angels rejoyce Luc. 15.7 10. And so accordingly they glorifie God in glorifiyng of whom consisteth their happines The more therefore the word is preached and men converted thereby the more the Angels reioyce and glorifie God the lesse the word is preached the lesse they rejoyce yea they may be sayd in some sort the more to mourne In this respect therfore the gospell may be said to be for the Angels So this great paradox is unfolded The substance of the second parte of this answer to this 2 Argument hath been answered before Whereas he chargeth us to forsake our ministery for a fewe pety accidentall circumstances therein he discovereth the nakednes of the Prelats in inflicting so materiall and substantiall punishment for a few pety accidentall circūstances For justice requyreth a proportion betwixt the offence and the punishment But we acknowledg no offence For we may not purchase liberty of doing the greatest good with committing the least evill He that saith doe good first saith eschew evill psal 34.14 These thinges being also proved evill in other bookes they are not to be accounted pety and accidentall circumstances The least sinne against the great God is to be accounted a great matter In his third answer he proclameth agayne but proveth not our error and faction If we erre or be factious let us in that respect be punished so notwithstāding that the people be not punished with us and let us be holpen as we are Ministers G. Powel It doth not follow that if the wise and judicious Parliament should iustly refuse to deale in the cause of Schismaticall Ministers further thē only to admonish them to desist from their singularity etc therefore they should provoke God and Angels Yea if they should take parte with Schismatikes and intercede for them to deteyne them and the people still in faction thē they should provoke God etc. psa 50 1718 Reply Indeede now you speake sure and if alwayes you speak so you shall not be trapt If the Parliament iustly refuse etc. and if we be schismatiks and singular etc. then all is well on your side But when will you proue us such As I shall anone proue the contrary so in the meane tyme for singularity it belongeth not to us but to the Prelats that are singular by themselues differing from the word and from more Churches reformed then we both in judgment also in practise But to returne to your other words thus I reason from them against you The wise and iudicious Parliament will not intermedle in the quarrell of Sdhismaticall ministers further then onely to admonish them to desist from their singularity etc all these are your owne words But the Parliament hath further intermedled for vs etc. ergo We are not schismaticall Either therefore recant your commendation of the Parliament or else revoke yous reprochfull accusing vs to be schismatikes Vtrum horum mauis accipe I suppose you will not charge the Parliament with any thing contrary to the commendation you haue before geiven of them and which all wise and judicious men will acknowledge to be due vnto them Therfore I hope you will de nobis palinodiam canere and never heerafter charge vs as you haue done Here is one thing more to be noated as some what crossing my former supposall for not revoking his former cōmendation of the Parliament yea making me to feare that he will rather impute folly to them according to the manner of some other Prelats then revoke his reproches against vs. What is this that is to be noted viz. That to proue if they should take parte with vs then they should provoke God and the whole host of heaven against us that I say to proue this he applyeth unto them psal 50.17.18 Whereby he insinuateth that they having interceded for us doe therefore hate to be reformed haue cast Gods word behind them haue runne with theeues and taken part with adulterers
that Christ himselfe testified of her that he had not found so great faith in Israell Read the place Reply c Absurd The woman was such Absurd Our Saviour speaketh not that of that womā Math 8 10 but of the Centurion Though the Notary were an Archbitshop yet I might intreat him better to read the place But Christ sayd Mat. 15.28 O woman great is thy faith What then Though as shee was elect she was also blessed yet as she was out of the visible Church the words of our Saviour might be spoken of her Neither doth the author say that she was a dogge but that she was litle better then a dogg in that respect that is as she was a Cananit none of the children of Israell Is ther no difference betwixt these words to say plainly that she was a dog Yet the words of our Saviour are playne It is not meete to take the childrens bread to cast it to dogs or whelps Therfore this note reproveth our Saviour Sophistrie and not the author of the Arguments The two next scoffing notes with d and e haue been often answered We leaue not our flockes in the playne field but are driven from them by force because we will not displease God to please the Prelats G. Powel f Onely Christ is the husband of his spouse Heere the supplicants blasphemously papize For I thinke they meane not this literally If they doe they are surely very honest men in the meane time Reply A man should first cast out the beame that is in his owne eye before he find fault with a mote in another mans eye Math 7 5 As Christ is the onely Archbishop of the Church so I acknowledg him also the onely husband of his spouse For the one title is as proper unto Christ as the other But heere the Notary falleth agayne over head and eares into the same sophistry that in the former note with c he did The author sayth that such Ministers had performed the duety as it were of husbands Sophistry the notary cryeth out blasphemy as if he had simply called them the husbands of the churches The author therfore did not blasphemously papize But let other take heed of like papizing that usurpe such names and authority as are proper onely to Christ and neither are nor can be maynteyned by any other Arguments then such as wherby the Papall dignity of the Antichrist of Rome is supported The latter part of the note is to lothsome for any Christian tongue to reade or chast eares to heare therfore I cast it out on the dunghill as vnworthy of any answer G. Powel g A lying hyperbole Then belike the Prophet Malachi Reply upon alleaging of whose words this note is grounded used a lying hyperbole Mala 2.13 14 God that putteth up all the teares of his children into his bottle knoweth and beholdeth this and will one day Rom 12 15 Iob. 30 25 Amos 6 6 wype a way these and all other teares from their eyes when they that in the meane time scorne such teares of the godly so farr are they from mournyng with them that mourne and being sory for the afflictions of Ioseph shall except they repent haue more then their bellye 's full of weeping and waylyng and gnashing of teeth G. Powel h If the refractary Ministers be so unkind and hard hearted that they will haue no pity upon them then may they be otherwise releeved well inough The Lord that searcheth the heartes of all men Reply knoweth the affections of some of the Ministers now deprived to be such towards their people that if they might stay with their people with comfortable conditions they had rather stay though their maintenance be but small then accept of a thowsand pound by the yeare else where with as good conditiōs Therfore hardnes of heart is not to be objected vnto them Touching the rest of this note it is strange that in the question of depriving ignorant Ministers according to the law statute in that behalfe this hath ben the principall objection where or how wil you haue their places supplyed Much like to the question of the Disciples whence should we get so much bread in the wildernes as should suffice so great a multitude Now the question being of our deprivation against law and the paucity of sufficient Ministers being objected reply is made There is store the Churches may be releeved otherwise But let them be first releeved that haue ignorant Ministers not knowing the principles of religion themselues much lesse able to teach other Further answer to the 6. Argument G. Powel If such congregations doe so mourne then the more hard hearts haue those cruel tyrants rather then sheepherds that without pity desperatly forsake them for litle or no cause Reply The substance of these wordes being the same with the former note is answered before yet here I ad 1 that it is more cruelty for the Prelats for litle or no cause to depriue such Pastors 2 that this answerer seemeth still to account sinnyng against God to be litle or nothing 3. that a theefe by the like reason may complayne of the hardnes of his heart that had rather lose his Purse then haue his throate cut G. Powel Those Congregations may cease mournyng and comfort themselues because there is store inough of able Ministers and they shall haue those that will not run away from them Take away tautologyes and other superfluityes and this answere it selfe would scarse haue been an obular or two farthing pamphlet Reply The first part of this answer hath been removed before Those that will not runne away where are they to be found What net may one haue to ketch them what keepe to hold them For doe not the Formalists dayly run away from their people Doe they not take another lyving and keep the former also leaving one to some journyman fit for all companyes Yea both Master man oftentymes leave both flocks to the Wolfe yea I knowe some that for sake their owne charges and are curats else where under other And to whome doe some of them leaue their owne To one that all the week long goeth to hedging ditchyng throshyng and other day labor for his livyng who on the Lordes day is at Church with a white Surplice to read service In harvest also they take harvest worke as ordinarily as other harvest men I haue seene it not long since with my eyes Some also within a fortnight after they are possessed of a living of good worth let it out for divers yeares and so take their leaue of the people to serue a cure under another O miserable condition of such a people Whose heart melteth not to think of such wretched watchmen What liklyhod therfore is there that the Congregations deprived of their godly loving paynefull Pastors shall haue other as faithfull that will not run away from
nature or reason but all must be done by the word of God the store house of divinity They are superstitious that stryue more for reteyning and practising of humane Ceremonyes in the worship of God be the pretense what it will then they regard the truth of God The answerer as a very pitifull man cryeth out Alas it is lamentable etc. But one of these poore Ministers yea many of them by reason of their trobles may come ten-tymes to some of his great Masters houses and not be offred once to drinke of a cupe but the truth is they haue forgotten Apostolicall hospitality and they haue learned Lordly Episcopall hostility Further marke here his contradiction or oblivion Before in his consideration of the preface to the Arguments he hath expresly charged them with divers particular carnall respects etc. Now he sayth contradictiō that he knoweth not for what carnall respects they curry favour etc. As for currying of favour it belongeth rather to some hungry trencher chaplines then to those against whom he writeth Yea 2 Sam. 16 13 2 Sam 19 18 as Shimei that cursed David when his kingdome was somwhat doubtfull yet at his safe returne and reestablishing of the Crowne unto him was as forward as any other by creepyng and crouchyng by flattering and fawnyng to curry favour agayne with David so it is well if there haue been no such curryers of favor among the Prelats The place of Timothy is abused It might in like sort haue been applyed to all the Martyrs We must not provide for our familyes by doyng any thing against Gods word That we had rather liue of our owne then of other mens is manifest in that we doe so earnestly sue to be restored to our places the rather that we may not be chargable to other G. Powel b Alas let them haue pity upon themselues and leaue their quarreling and they shall not be neglected This is spoken more like an Archbishop that had power to preferre other Reply then like a young chapline that needed and wayted for preferment himselfe I know not who may more justly be charged with quarrelling then they that beate and buffet their fellow servants yea then they that smite Christs Syster his loue his Doue his undefiled yea not only smite her but also woūd her and take her vayle from her We would gladly liue in peace with holines but we cannot be suffered Further answer to the 11. Argument G. Powel The Argument doth not follow because of the dissimilitude in the instances or examples The Argument doth follow the better Reply because of the similitude of instances as the answerer speaketh or rather because it is a minore ad maius from the lesse to the greater This inequality of examples rather strenghtneth then weakeneth the Argument and the cause But let us see his dissimilitudes G. Powel i Pharao thought his priests to professe true religion and diligently to obey him etc But refractary Ministers though professing true religion yet doe obstinatly beyng blynded with superstition refuse to serue God etc Reply As Pharao was in error touchyng the religion obedience of his Priests so are our Prelats touching our refractariness and superstition The obedience of the molested ministers to his Majestie as good as the best Conformitans as hath been sheewed Our obedience to his Majestie is as good as of the best of their syde That mans obedience to a Mayor of a towne or to any other inferior officer of a Prince is alwayes the best that is most agreable to the pleasure of the Prince himselfe In like manner that obedience is best unto Princes that doth best agree with the pleasure of the Prince of Princes and King of Kings To obey the inferior without due regard of the superiors pleasure is but flattery and fawnyng not good obedience So to obey Princes without due regard to our dutie to God For it is more prejudiciall and hurtfull then beneficiall or profitable to such Princes See the words of Samuell to the Israelits 1 Sam. 12.15 25 the example of Ioab in numbring the people by the commaundement of David whereupon followed an exceeding plague Touching the serving of God and his Church in the faith full and diligent function and exercise of the Ministery we are unjustly charged to refuse it for we humbly and earnestly desire it aboue all maintenance and for this desire we are thrust out of our livyng G. Powel 2 The Monks and Fryars were put out against their wills for Sodomi heresie Idolatry etc The refractary Ministers are willingly deprived for obstinate superstition in refusing sincerely to Preach the gospell not beyng conformable to the Christian lawes of our Church and Magistrat The more justly that Monks and Fryars were put out Reply the stronger is the Argument for us to be provided for that are put out unjustly without objection of any such foule crymes to us as for which they were put out Yet it is false that they were put out for heresie or Idolatry though they were heretikes and Idolaters For they were suffered still in their heresie Idolatry as well after their putting out as before Neither also are we willingly deprived any othewise then Marriners willingly throwe their goods over boord into the sea Acts 27.38 to save their liues and the ship the better Of superstition I haue spoken often this now I ad that many account carefulnes to keep a good conscience in smale matters as well as in great to be superstition And in the meane tyme themselues care neither for great nor smal matters any further thē there are lawes of man in that behalfe As for superstition indeed we are silenced and deprived because we will not yeeld to humā Ceremonyes that haue been and are superstitiously abused in the worship of God and of Idols amongst the Papists whatsoever they are amongst us It is also as false that we refuse to be conformable to Christian lawes G. Powel Monks and Fryars could not haue kept their places by submitting themselues But these may by conformyng themselues c. I know no condition of submission offered to Monks etc Touching the rest we thanke you for nothing Reply This is the curtesie of Prelats to make us pay decre for our lyvings even to buye them with sinnyng against God as some of them are sayd to doe with Symony and otherwise But we dare not accept them at the price The rest haue been often answered I haue not such leysure to use tautologies as the answerer seemeth to haue had at the writing of his answer as though he were connyng a lesson by heart in feare of beating for forgetting the same THE 12. ARGVMENT Iames 5.6 Apoc. 5 8 Ezra 6 10 Cenes 20 7 The prayers of all the godly are much to be esteemed Especially of the Ministers of the word Ergo In this behalfe the Ministers now troubled are the
the officers thereof increased When were the Preists of the law of greater outward authority and tooke more upon thē then when the church of the Iewes touching true beuty was in worst case Serch the scriptures for they beare witnes heerof Yea were there ever so many degrees of dignitie in the Church and doe we ever reade of so great state and pompe of the Preistes in the former tymes as there was of the Preists Scribes Pharises at the first commyng of Christ And were ever things in so bad case before as thē they were So also sinc that the more that truth of doctrine and puritie of Discipline decayed in the Church after the golden and most glorious age of the Apostles the more did the Church grow unto and swell in outward riches pomp and glory Experience also teacheth that the more glorious Prelats are in their outward state the lesse benefite the rest of the Church hath by them because they take the less paynes at the least such paynes as are most agreable to the true Episcopall and ministeriall calling described in holy scripture Wherein then is the true glory of the Church 1 in such ministers of the word and other officers as Christ hath commended 2 In the performance of such dutyes by them as he requyreth that is in preaching the word faithfully in administring the Sacraments sincerely in praying zealously and aptly according to the necessityes of the Church and in executyng Discipline wisely and justly 3 In the effects of the former two viz in true knowledge faith loue zeale humility patience temperance righteousnes peace etc. Touching these thinges the more we want som of those officers that Christ hath cōmended by his Apostles to the Church and the more negligent those that we haue are in their duties the more lamentable it is to see the carved pillers of the temple broken downe and the faithfull workmen in Gods house to be cast out by whose labors it had been before built brought to some good bewty Touching the last what christian heart is so stony that it doth not mourne What eye so drye that it doth not shead teares yea rather gush out with teares to consider and behold the mesery of our supposed glorious Church by the spirituall nakednes blindnes poverty therof I meane the great ignorance the superficiall worship of God the fearfull blasphemies and swaringes in houses and streates so also the direfull cursings the open contempt of the word Sacraments the wicked profanations of the Lords dayes the dishonor of superiours the pride the cruelty the fornications adultryes and other uncleannesses the dronkennes the covetousnes the usuryes and other the like abominations almost as grevous as either heertofore in the tyme or now in the places of Popery when and where there was no preaching at all of the gospell O M. Powel and yee my Reverend Fathers and brethren in the ministery even of the conformable sorte flatter not your selues in this behalfe but behold and pity the wofull and lamentable stat of our Church in these things But to returne heerin you erre not a litle in that you confound the state of the Church and of the common wealth of the Iewes The Common wealth was indeed at that time in much misery But was the Church also amongst them for such thinges as wheerin cheifely consisteth misery in as bad condition Had they not those officers that God had prescribed Were the Preists and Levits either so ignorant or so idle or so scandolous as many called Ministers amongst us Were the faithfull and paynfull Preists and Levites so urged to the observation of mens traditions and Ceremonyes in the worship of God and otherwise so molested as now many godly ministers are Were the people so blind so irreligious so unrighteous as now they are Were the godly forced to heare dumme dogges or corrupt teachers Or restrayned from hearing of those that preached wholsome doctrine or urged to communicate with the Preistes in humaine Ceremonyes to the greife of their soules and wounding of their consciences as many now are The Lord giue you all such consideration of these thinges that yee may not so much labour for outward pompe preferments honors dignityes etc. As for the true felicitie of our English Ierusalem and Sion that God may build up the walles therof and still loue and delight therin G. Powel As Nehemiah having by prayer and fasting found favour with an heathen King for the building of Ierusalem was resisted and hindred by Sanballat Tobiah Geshem etc. So worthy Nehemiah in the beginning of our religious Soveraignes reigne finding grace for the continuance of the prosperous estate of our Church begunne in the dayes of our blessed Queene so many Sanballats Tobiahs and Geshems as there be refractary ministers and Papists deryding and despisyng us labor to hinder our ministery etc. The ods that before he spake of Reply now he maketh likes Is this to dispute ad idem and to the purpose Touching his worthy Nehemiah whom he compareth to auncient good Nehemiah let this be observed that although he speake of the prayer and fasting of the auncient Nehemiah yet he speaketh not of any prayer and fasting of his newe Nehemiah What may be suspected or noted heerin I leaue to the consideration of the wise and judicious reader that remembreth what opposition many of the Prelats haue alwayes made to true fasting and that also knoweth what be the thinges which men may safely commēd in prayer unto God especially for which they may humble themselues extraordinary in fasting before God Touching the Tobiahs Sanballats and Geshems whom fayne he would haue to be those that he calles refractary ministers as well as the Papists let him not deceaue himselfe heerin For the wise Christian readers are able to discerne thē to be most worthy of these nāes that striue most for mens precepts that study more to please men then God that preach not themselues and hinder them that would whose cheefe worke is not to encrease God his kingdome but to uphold their owne fearing nothing more then the downefall therof which also feed not the Lords people with the bread of eternall life but their owne bodyes with the meate that perisheth and with all carnall delights who care not to enrich the Lords people with durable riches that shall not be taken away but plod day and night to enrich themselues in this world and to build great house for their posteritie Such are indeed the Sanballats Tobiahs and Geshems that doe most oppugne the spirituall building of the spirituall Ierusalem Now although this answerer other not much vnlike those before described for a tyme reproch and scorne vs by such odious names and comparisons yea plough upon our backes and make long furrowes yet the righteous Lord in the end shall plead our cause against them and bring forth our righteousnes even as the mornyng Sunne it may be in this world that even
not Circumcising Cain and Abell did contrary to the law given for Circumcision to Abraham many yeares after Or whither Ishmael persecuted Isaack before Isack was borne Or whether stealing of horses an hundred yeares past were punishable with death before any law made for death in that behalfe One thing cannot be sayd contrary to an other that is not neyther ever was extant in rerum natura The Second part of this Quere whether since the granting of Magna Charta unto this age the judiciall acts of deprivation of Bishops etc were ever held to be contrary to the law of this kingdome and Magna Charta we shall answer if God permit more plentifully anone Quere 3 G. Powel 3 Quere Whether any Iudge of this Realme or any cheife officer lerned in the lawes be of opinion that such sentences of deprivation as haue lately passed in due forme in any Ecclesiasticall Court be contrary to any much lesse to many statuts Reply Though it were a sufficient answer to bid him goe looke and himselfe to aske the opinion of every judge learned officer yet will I not altogether yeld him so short and cutted an answer And though it be a principle in Philosophy that forma dat esse rei yet to the beyng of every thing there must be matter to which the forme giveth being And therefore in this case besides due forme there must be also due matter inserted in due sentences Wherupon I craue a resolute and direct answer whether by those words passed in due forme he meane passed for matter and forme in due forme Or whether he meane passed without due matter in due forme onely For if he meane by passed for matter and forme in due forme then is his question without question either a foolish question or no question at all For who would question whether any Iudge or learned officer could doubt that a sentence passed for matter and forme in due forme were a sentence contrary to any much lesse to many statuts As though there were any Statuts so ridiculous and absurd On the other side if he meane by passed in due forme only due forme without due matter then we answer that the same sentence may be unjust for want of due matter and yet be just by reason of due forme And so on the other parte we affirme that a sentence may be iust by reason of due matter and yet unjust by reason of an undue forme How many sentences therefore of deprivation soever as haue been lately given without due and just matter or without due and iust forme we answer so many not to haue passed in due matter and forme and so contrary to some lawes or statuts But were this question wholly grāted what ease and advantage can the opinion of any iudg or learned officer yeeld to those Iudiciall acts of deprivation wherupon the controversie is grounded which are not passed in any due forme of any law or Statute Ecclesiasticall whatsoever Furthermore touching this question if the Prelats did intend that all their sentēces should be according to law wherfore did they make a Canon against the ordinary prosecution of appeales Yea what needed such a Canon What benefite is there to any appellant by his appeale from a just sentence Or what danger to the Iudge a quo by such appeales The whole danger is to the appellant himselfe For the sentence beyng just he shall be sure to get nothing neither the Iudge a quo to lose any thing by the appeale G. Powel VVho having but halfe an eye doth not see but that by pleading Magna Charta cap. 29 they would not onely weaken but also subvert and utterly overthrow all jurisdiction Ecclesiasticall Doth every one that desireth limitation of Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction Reply and laboreth to restrayne it from all communion of forreyne lawes seeke the subversion therof If also the lawes Ecclesiasticall be the Kings Ecclesiasticall lawes and the jurisdiction Ecclesiasticall the Kings Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction then is this place of Magna Charta so farre from subverting the jurisdiction or law Ecclesiasticall as that by that place the same law and jurisdiction is up held and more throughly established That the law jurisdiction Ecclesiastical ever hath been and yet is accounted the Kings Ecclesiasticall law and juridiction shall be shewed anone G. Powel The sentences and graue determinations whereof that is of Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction haue never yet in any age or Country been submitted to popular triall by the judgment of Peeres etc Reply All sent ces of Ecclesiasticall Courts are not so graue but that some are somtymes repealed by Higher courts and sometymes revoked by themselues Sometyme also they meddle with matters not belonging unto them and therfore by ordinary course of Commmon law they are prohibited to proceed Finally in some case the Bishop giveth not Institution to a benefice untill by a Iury of 12. men whereof 6. are to be of the Clergy and 6 of the Layity the controversie de iure patronatus be decided Yea sometyme the Bishop having instituted a clarke is forced by writ from the common law to admit of another clark presented by another Patrone and so to displace him whom before he had instituted G. Powel The place of Magna Charta cannot be understood of Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction or the practise thereof especially if we consider the end why this law was made and the tyme when The Prelats should make sure worke indeed Reply if they could make that no lawes were against their power Thē might they take upon them without controlment what they would under coloure of Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction as indeed they doe now pretily beginne to doe G. Powel The end was that the Kings of this Realme might not challenge an infinit and absolute power as some Kings else where did and yet doe without judgment and lawfull proceedings to take away any mans liberty life Country goods or lands Then belike the Kings Majestie is restrayned by Magna Charta but the Prelacy is not Reply Is not this good stuffe The King shall weare the Crowne but the Prelats will beare the sword Whether now doe they that are falsely called Puritans or the Prelats most encroch upon the Royall authoritye G. Powel It was made at such time as the Kings thought Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction no more in right then in fact to belong to the Crowne Therfore the words haue no relation to Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction This is utterly false Reply yea the falshood therof is evident by the testimony of that worthy and renowned Lawyer S. Edward Cooke in the booke alleadged by the answerer For he sayth expresely that as in temporall causes the King by the mouth of Iudges in his Courts of Iustice doth iudge the same by the temporall lawes of England lib. de jure regis Eccle. fol 8 so in causes Ecclesiasticall etc. the connusance wherof doth not belong to the common lawes of
England the same are to be iudged and determyned by Ecclesiasticall Iudges according to the Kings Ecclesiasticall lawes etc. fol. 39 And againe obserue good reader sayth S. Edward Cooke seeyng that the determination of heresies etc. belongeth not to the Common law how necessary it was for administration of Iustice that his Maiesties progenitors Kings of this Realme did by publike authority authorize Ecclesiasticall Courts under thē to determyne those great and important causes etc. by the Kings Ecclesiasticall lawes The jurisdiction therfore Courts and lawes Ecclesiasticall in the opinion of the Kings progenitors were thought held to be their own Kingly lawes Courts and jurisdiction The same is further proved by the sayd S. Edward Cooke fol. 9 by the president of Renulphus in discharging and exempting the Monastery and Abbot of Abinden from the jurisdiction of the Bishops and granting also to the saide Abbot Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction etc by the president of William the first fol 10. 11 who made inpropriatiō of Churches with cure to Ecclesiasticall persons etc. and by divers presidents of other Kings since the conquest That which in this parte of the answer is afterward added of the necessary restitution of the right of Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction to the Crowne is also confuted by the same S. Edward Cooke who plainely saith that though there had been no such law of restitution made yet it was resolved by all the Iudges that the Kings and Queenes of Englād for the tyme being by the auncient prerogatiue law of England may make such a Commision etc. And therfore by the auncient lawes of this Realme this kingdome of England is and absolute Empire and Monarchy consisting of one head which is the King and of a body politike c. Also that the Kingly head of this body politike is furnished with plenary power c. to render iustice and right to every part and member of this body Thus farre S. Edward Cooke From all which it followeth that the restitution of the auncient right howsoever lawfully made as being made by the whole body of the kingdome was notwithstāding not necessarily made as though without it the King or Queene for the tyme being could not haue used their auncient right That which followeth in the 2. 3. and 4. branches of this 4 answer to the consequence of this 8 Argument doth not belong to the matter because it doth nothing justifie the proceedings of the Bishops or other Ecclesiasticall Iudges in depriving of the Ministers pleaded for in such manner and for such causes as for which they haue depriveded them The question is not whether jurisdiction Ecclesiasticall by the lawes of the land doth be long under the King unto the ordinaryes nor whether the Ordinaryes in the exercise of the Kings jurisdiction Ecclesiiasticall and Consistoriall trialls ought to proceed by vertue of Peeres etc but whether some Ordinaryes exercising the Kings Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction haue proceeded in their Ecclesiasticall Consistories against some Ministers without authority of the Kings Ecclesiasticall law therfore in that respect contrary to Magna Charta which requyreth nothing to be doone without the Kings law Further De jure Regis Ecclesi fol. 9 although we grant as S. Edw. Cooke instructeth us all lawes Ecclesiasticall derived from other which by and with a generall consent are approved and allowed here to be aptly and rightly called the Kings Ecclesiasticall lawes of England yet I deny that all lawes Ecclesiasticall derived by the Kings progenitors either before or since the Conquest from others are now in this age our Soveraigne Lord King Iames his Ecclesiasticall lawes and therefore howsoever many judiciall Acts of deprivation of Bishops Preists from their benefices c. according to the Ecclesiasticall law which is called ius Pontificium which was derived by the Kings Progenitors from the Bishops of Rome either before or since the Conquest unto Magna Charta and since that to the 25 of King Henry the eyght were never all held to be contrary but were ever all held to be agreable to the lawes of this kingdome yet notwithstanding I affirme that all Iudiciall Acts and sentences 25. Hen. 8 cap. 17 how many soever of deprivation of Ministers from their benefices had made and given by the Ecclesiasticall Iudges since the 25. of King Henry the 8. onely according or onely by force and vertue of the sayd ius Pontificium or Bishop of Rome his law the sentences given in the time of Queene Mary excepted are and ought to be holden not to be had made given by the lawes of this kingdome or by the Kings Ecclesiasticall law And why Even because the whole ius Pontificium or Bishop of Romes law was altogether excepting the tyme of Queene Mary abrogated adnulled and made voyd by an Act of Parlament and consequently is but a meere Alien Forraine and straunge law and no municipall law of England and therefore not the Kings Ecclesiasticall law Wherefore our Soveraigne Lord King Iames by this graunt of Magna Charta made by his progenitors beyng obliged to suffer no Free man of the Realme to be taken or imprisoned or disseissed of his Frrehold or liberties c. Nor to passe upon him nor condemne him but by lawfull judgment of his Peeres or by the law of the land We agayne assume from this statute of the great Charter that sundry sentences of deprivation of Ministers from their benefices for causes before specified are unlawfull because such Ministers haue been condemned and judgment hath been passed upon them without lawfull judgment of their Peeres or law Ecclesiasticall of the land For heere we must giue the answerer to witt by these words or law of the land that all the Kings lawes of what nature or quality soever whether Ecclesiasticall or temporall and not only the lawes temporall as he insinuateth are included As therefore no temporall Free man of the Realme may be condemned passed upon or disseissed of his liberty and freehold c. in a temporall cause and in a temporall Court without lawfull judgment of his Peeres or temporall law of the land Even so likewise no Ecclesiasticall person beyng a freeman of the Realme may be condemned passed upon or disseissed of his liberty or frehold but by lawfull Ecclesiasticall judgement according to the law Ecclesiasticall of the land And heereupon we graunt if the King haue any law Ecclesiasticall of the lād for the deprivation of a Minister from his liberty and frehold for not subscription perjurie contempt of Canonical so called obedience omission of Rites and Ceremonyes not precise observation of the booke of Common prayer c. Then we graunt that the Ordinaryes being the Kings Iudges Ecclesiasticall may rightly depriue a Minister from his benefice for these offences And yet still we deny and shall be able to mainteyne that sundry sentences of deprivation made and given by sundry Ordinaries against svndry Ministers be either unjust or unlawfull or no sentences at