the high commission especially seeing that the high commission dealeth only by authority from the prince and is limitted with lawes and is subiect to the princes commaundement and dealeth onely in extraordinary cognitions and may bee reuoked and cassed as the prince shall thinke meete And where onely Ecclesiasticall persons meddle with the censures whereas contrariwise the imperious church-aldermen clayme no commission from the prince nay they challenge the power and vicarage of Christ Iesus and superioritie ouer all princes and deale in small and great causes yea clownes and doltes dispute of relgion and throw out excommunications and rule all without lawe or reason by the onely instinct of their vncleane spirit or rather changeable fancie and therefore the Remonstrance sayth well that it is a lynsey wolsey and motley discipline patched together by men of motley ierkins consisting of contrary pieces iumbling both Church and common wealth together while ministers are sent abroad to beg for their liuing and artificers and clownes rule like Lordes in the Consistorie prescribing Lawes to princes so that if the Libeller desire this goodly gallimafrey of discipline hee is more fitte to weare a motley cote with an addition of haukes belles then to gouerne a Church or any part of the common wealth Quaere Put-case Quest 43. if the sole gouernment of a bishop in a diocesse be sufficiēt and most agreeable to Gods worde why is there an ecclesiasticall commission standing of many persons ciuill and Ecclesiasticall or if an Ecclesiasticall commission bee needefull in a Realme why not in a Prouince If in a Prouince why not in a Diocesse If in a Diocesse why not in a Deanrie If in a Deanerie why not in a Parish Lastly why might there not without absurditie and breache of true vniformitie bee planted in some places already capable a Consistorie or Commission of Elders though the like cannot bee accomplished in all seeing there bee newe Ecclesiasticall Commissions erected Deanes and Chapters broken musicke and Organs in some places not in other To these three questions Answere which are the very crisis of the Put case dreaming furie I answere first that seeing the prince by the lawes of God is soueraine gouernour in all causes within her dominions that beside the ordinary iurisdiction of Bishops within their seuerall Diocesse it is very requisite that there should bee a superiour authoritie to assist them and to strengthen them and to supply that which is wanting and in case they doe not their dueties to correct them secondly that as the Prince is one so there ought to bee but one supreme authoritie although by that authoritie her Maiestie may appoynt diuers Commissioners and yet nothing commeth thereby to the Eldership that claymeth authoritie not from the prince but from God and would altogether breake the vnion of her gouernement while euery consistorie would rule the congregation vnder it as best pleaseth my lords the church aldermen As for the gradation of the libeller if hee had vnderstoode any logicke he might haue learned that no kind of argument is more faultie by this reason a man might thus conclude against the libeller that if he will libell against authoritie hee will not spare the counsell if they withstande him if not the counsell neither will he spare the prince if hee contemne all humane lawes he will not greatly esteeme Gods lawes if hee care not for Gods lawe then will he not in the ende care for God himselfe likewise if the Sanedrin was at Ierusalem then in other cities if in cities then in boroughs so in villages and if the consistory be required in parishes then in villages if in villages then in hamlets if in hamlets then in houses if in houses then in the kitchin where the cooke is chiefe moderator which followe as well as his reasons many doe thinke that one high commission is inough too much for al England what then woulde they thinke if they should see in euery parish high commissioners yea what if there were but such cōmissioners as the aldermen of the cōsistonie be that claime a most absolute high commission from God planted in euery parish it would then be time to runne into some other countrey à remotis for it would bee hard liuing in England thirdly I say that there is no place in England capable of the aldermanshippe but such as is very capable of faction and disloyalty and that his reason drawen from organs and broken musicke is very weake for albeit there is broken musicke in some places and not in other yet can there be no elderships in any place for if any should bee placed the musicke of that companie compared with other places woulde sound like a paire of broken organes not onely like broken musicke and that gouernment would breake both Church and common wealth in pieces bring all out of tune they haue done it already in places where they be setled and were vnknowen to all antiquitie and therefore what reason haue wee to make triall of that which is like to prooue so dangerous Thus you haue heard all those contumelious cases questions and demands which this railing Putcase in his malicious fury hath thought good to propound not only to disgrace hurt the ecclesiastical state but also to ouerthrow law and gouernment if the course be lawful and honest who may not as well propound questions to the dishonor of any state or noble personage in the land there is no man of so rare merite nor so honorable but might if this course were suffered bee brought into enuie hatred and if I shoulde follow him in this course good Lord what shamefull and ridiculous matters do the publike and priuate actions of these factious persons offer to mens view al which albeit they deserue to heare yet it is not for me to speake neither do graue men desire to know I will only for requitall frame certaine interrogatories concerning the cause those persons which are principal agents in this cause that seeing how open they lye themselues they may hereafter deale more modestly with others if they follow this course I doe assure them that for euery one they haue propounded to vs there will be by some or other twentie propounded to them in the meane while let them content themselues with these and blame not me for I doe but answere and followe them seeing they haue begunne to come into this kind of field they must haue patience to stand to the hazard of warres if they would haue dealt ciuilly with me they should not haue ouercome me in curtesie CERTAINE QVESTIONS PROPOVNDED to the Putcase and his adherents wherein diuerse well affected to the state desire to be resolued QVaere whether hee that maketh doubt of the principles of our Christian faith bee not by the opinion of the ancient fathers an haeretike and whether the lawes do not condemne him for a traytor that maketh doubt of her Maiesties right to the
vs with their consistoriall presumptiō and yet did we not deale against their churches For that I wrote against the presbyterie I did it in respect that the same was obtruded to our church by a certaine vnlearned bold Italian that I wrote in Latine the cause was the Italians and Bezaes dealing for their presbyterie in Latine and also to let others vnderstād that our cause is such as we are able well to defend against Beza and all consistorials whatsoeuer and therefore seeing we meane not to obtrude our gouernement to them and so professe in our bookes let thē keepe their consistorie to thēselues and make much of it that it fal not to the ground for it is in very weake case Bezaes simple discourse doth yeeld it no comfort If any doe come forth to reply I do protest it is he that maketh the stirre and not I. and therefore for cōmon ease it were best for al to keepe silence but if they meane to prate of the glory of the consistory which our platformers esteeme as an idoll they must expect an answere and let not Beza thinke that his fond disputes against vs in his late three halfe penie pamphlet shall passe for oracles To returne to the libeller I answere that neither is it true that we handle the matter doubtfully for we are all resolued in our positiōs against thē nor that they hold their opinions resolutely for neither concerning the institution partes authoritie nor office of their consistorie doe any two of them agree neither doth it seeme probable that euer they wil agree they are at such contention among themselues for neither doe they knowe what they would haue nor wherefore Secondly I say that this argument is most simple and mishapen for suppose that two or three should handle the cause of the Church simplie it were no reason for the ignorance and simple dealing of two or three that the Chuch should be ouerturned and that new lawes and lordings shoulde come in place yet this is his wise conclusion because all doe not agree in all pointes that the matter must be called in question and bishops be displaced that certaine coate cardes in short ierkins may come in place to rule all either by their diuine inspiration or else according as Th. Cartw. the oracle of discipline shall determine which reason if it were admitted then howsoeuer we reteine the present gouernement yet shall wee for euer be discharged of the consistorie the patrons whereof contrarie one another most absurdly in infinit places write most irresolutely and strangely Lastly to bring the ecclesiastical state into question He alledgeth first that our lawes expect a further reformation that such as haue written against papistes puritans haue found imperfectiōs in our gouernemēt Which if he meane in the frame of our discipline or in respect that we haue bishops or want consistories he is abused they neither expect such a reformatiō nor auow any such thing by a certaine statute of K. Henry 8 power was giuen to 32 persons to gather into one body such lawes ecclesiastical as were nether repugnant to the lawes of the realme nor prerogatiue royall That they had as the petitioner saith authoritie to correct good lawes or to make new lawes is the first vntrueth The second vn trueth is That D. Cranmer other learned men did collecte the lawes into one booke for the booke that came forth with the title of Correctio legum Angliae was gathered not by D. Cranmer but by D. Haddon and that very simply without iudgemēt insomuch as al men of iudgemēt disliked it afterward himselfe also was ashamed of it nay contrary to the authoritie giuen him by statute he tooke vpon him not to gather lawes together but to gather a packe of new fancies together and to make new lawes coontrarie to the Ecclesiasticall lawes of the realme yea contrarie to equitie and reason as I shall iustifie if any will challenge me for it The lawes of nursing of children and marriages will verifie all that I say yea and his owne testimonie giuen of it Last of all the lawe whereby this collection of lawes was authorised is now repealed and not necessarie For albeit all doe not yet some knowe what is lawe but suppose ecclesiastical lawes that are in force should begathered together doeth it therefore followe that ecclesiasticall lawes must be all changed howsoeuer it is let not the aldermen bragge of these lawes for therein the authoritie of Bishops is confirmed churchaldermen not so much as mentioned they must therefore looke in some other place for in this booke their Consistorial conceites are not to be found In the booke of Common prayer there is a Commination prescribed to be vsed vntil an order of discipline practised in the primitiue Church should be restored But what maketh that for the establishment of the consistoriall discipline which was neither in the primitie Church nor in the cogitation of the authors of that booke the meaning of the booke is onely that the commination there mentioned shoulde be vsed vntil such time as in the time of Lent offenders might be brought to humble themselues as they did in the primitiue Church and that more fauour might be giuen to the execution of ecclesiastical lawes which is that discipline which they desire these felowes withstand and therefore hereafter I thinke wil not call for discipline for if the same were once executed then would not euery contentious person degorge his malice against lawe nor libellers and scismatickes be suffered to declaime against the state nor euery vnlearned mate be suffered to preach false doctrine and reuell at all antiquitie Neither doeth it followe because in the ordination of Mininisters it is saide take thou authoritie to preach the worde of God that euery Minister is apointed a preacher and that none are to be appointed Ministers but such as can preach which is that they desire And this libeller affirmeth for the exception which doth abbridge the lawe is 1 This practise is condemned by the law inciuile est ff de legebus cautelously and malitiously left out wherein he sheweth that his cause cannot stand but by forging and forcing the wordes are Take thou authoritie to preach where thou shalt be so appointed These fellowes disdaine appointmēt would runne before they be sent but vnlesse many had more learning and discretion it were better that some of those that take on them to preach were set to reade and such as runne so fast were made to sit still In Flaunders according to the rules of this discipline they would needes at the first haue euery one to preach but when they sawe the great inconuenience that came of it they put them to reade Caluins homilies on Iob. but suppose that in the point of discipline of Lent or in the number and qualities of preachers we haue not that we desire doeth it therefore followe that the Ecclesiasticall state
al these mens deuises be nought worth how litle is the rest thereof to bee valued sure if that which themselues confesse bee not sufferable the rest must needs be vntollerable which if the petitioner know not he is but a nouice in his owne cause and knoweth litle or nothing if he knew he is very impudent that dare defend such maner of persons They openly professe and acknowledg that they bee sinnefull men Petitioner A great matter Answere for albeit they shoulde neyther professe nor confesse so much yet woulde the same appeare but too too euidently In doctrine their leud heretical opinions In maners their pride malice crueltie couetousnesse vsury gluttonie and chamber cheare which they call fasting and colour with tearmes of godly exercises doe notoriously conuince them neither do I yet tell all for other matters I haue thought good to keepe for an ariere bāquet for that I would not haue the libeller surfet which he would percase doe if too much were set before him at once They call not themselues puritanes Petitioner Vntruth Answere for both Martin this petitioner calleth his 1 Pag. 83. consorts puritanes yea and others more honest men then eyther of the two which wee are rather to beleeue then the petitioner call them so and that rightly for commonly they appropriate vnto themselues the name of the saints of godly brethren and such like and account and call others that be not of their faction 2 Martins hay any work and his minerals prophane They esteeme also the 3 T. C. eldership a pure gouernment and other corrupt and T. Cartw. calleth his cause the cause of sincerity why then are they not iustly called puritanes percase they wil answere that they are impure filthie fellowes which in deed is true for their puritie neither consisteth in life nor doctrine for none therein can be lesse pure vnlesse it be in bare conceit but in outward shewes false semblant vaine protestations of reformation gogling of eyes and painted hypocrisie this excuse therefore that they doe not call themselues puritanes were it true yet is it vnsufficient seeing they take vpon themselues to be more pure then others as did the puritanes of old time for we may not thinke that the Cathari or Nouatians accounted themselues without sinne but were called puritanes for seuering themselues from others which they accounted lesse pure then themselues They do absolutely yeeld and subscribe to the Articles of Christian faith Petitioner and doctrine professed in the Church of England And therfore offend not against the statute made 23. of Elizabeth c. 12. concerning that purpose This is a palpable vntrueth Answere for both doe they put out certaine articles and adde others vnto the Apostles Creede And T. C. and Fenner confound person and essence in the Deitie and make the sonne to proceede from God the Father The article concerning bishoppes and homilies and Ecclesiasticall gouernement they vtterly denie and therefore are both schismatikes and heretikes and offend against that statute most directly and denie it shamefully and cauill most absurdly for where the Parliament calleth all the booke and the pointes therein conteined Articles of Religion These subscribe onely to the Articles of Faith and Sacraments Expounding faith strictly and discharging thēselues easilie and expounding statutes contrarie to the opinion of Iudges Call you this consistoriall interpretation They giue to her Maiestie all that power Petitioner that is recognised to be in her highnes by the othe of supremacie as it is by her Maiestie expounded and therefore be no traytors How can this be Answere seeing they deny her power to nominate bishops to make ecclesiasticall lawes to determine ecclesiasticall causes or to delegate others to heare and determine them and take away the last appeale and cognition from her and giue her not any tenths or subsidies how I say may this be seeing they take away both her ecclesiasticall authoritie and her reuennues and giue this power partly to Elderships partly to Synodes partly to Deacons new found creatures And therefore albeit they take the othe of supremacie yet they deny her supreme power vnder colour of the interpretation of the iniunction which abridgeth not her power in cases expressed Beware therefore Libeller and touch this string no more for it soundeth but badly in all loyall subiects eares They professe all obedience to the Lordes of the counsell Petitioner the Iudges and ciuil Magistrates and therefore be not Anabaptistes He saith they professe all obedience Answere but if he would haue excused his clyents he should haue said they performe it for the Iesuites doe in termes professe obedience yet none more factious this is a point that doeth neerely touch his cause and would haue required more diligence in clearing of it For whatsoeuer they professe in this petition both their doctrine and behauiour is contrarie They set the subiectes against the prince as hath bene shewed and haue wilfully oppugned all her Maiesties ecclesiastical lawes they vse her with bitter termes Martin saith her Maiestie is 1 Epist p. 10. 53. seduced and that God 2 Hay any worke alloweth not her gouernement and that she biddeth 1 Ibidem battell to God They teach that Ministers ought 2 Regist p. 48. not to obey the prince when he prescribeth ceremonies and fashions of apparell They accuse her maiestie eyther of ignorance being abused or vnthankefulnes to God and negligence 3 Motion with submission pap 41. in her duetie They resemble her to 4 Gilbie Ieroboam Achab Iehoram and other wicked princes They that wrote the 5 2. Admonit Admonition acuse the high court of parliament of iniquitie affirme that it shall be easier for Sodom and Gomorrha then that court and calleth the Lords politike Machiauels Penrie accuseth 6 Supplication them of betraying God and his kingdome and prophecieth of the Spaniardes to come and wast the land They affirme That our counsell 7 Epistle before reformation no enemie may truely be said to delight in iniurie and violent oppression of Gods saintes And that the Lordes cannot possibly bee said to deale in 8 Ibidem matters of Iustice They charge them with maintenance of impietie and say that with 9 Ibidem Pilate they crucifie Christ. They affirme that the Magistrates and Ministers haue walked hand in hand in the contempt of true religion They call the Iudges wicked lawyers and Atheists Vpon ecclesiasticall 10 Vdals dialogue and Martins Epist gouernours they raile most impudently calling them robbers wolues simoniakes persecutors and such like And therefore if they bee not accompted Anabaptists they haue the more wrong seeing in all disobedience and vnciuill reproches they passe the Anabaptists This is the onely difference that Anabaptistes reuell against all Magistrates these against such especially as withstand their rebellious deseignements They holde it lawfull before
4 5. Eliz. c. 1. Ex officio by any Ordinarie to a Clarke the refusall whereof is verie penall In the register in the title Consultation diuers cases are founde where the Iudges ecclesiasticall procceding ex officio is allowed Why then may not ecclesiasticall commissioners proceede Ex officio and minister othes For that which this accuser sayth that for matters of felonie they examine men vpon their othes is false For with these cases they doe not meddle If the articulator can proue they doe why doeth he not declare it seeing he may thereby procure them that hurt which he desireth Article 12 No man shoulde be cited to a spirituall courte to depose therein as witnesse For this is extortion and tort to the partie Fitz. iust ofp. p. 172. Cromp. 219. Answere Neither is any cited ad iurandum or to depose but ad testificandum which neither the author of the Articles nor any else can deny to bee lawfull For neither is this libeller nor any man to bee credited without an othe Somewhat this smatterer hath heard but hee cannot cite it right For both the Register and Fitzherbert the author of this opinion doeth allowe othes in causes testamentarie and matrimoniall And it is the common practise and euer was in all causes and courtes And himselfe confesseth so much in the next accusation But the obiection he cannot hit When hee obiecteth right hee shall haue his answere more at full Now it is sufficiēt to say that which euery lawyer that knoweth any lawe can tell him that seeing by the lawes of England many causes are heard in Ecclesiasticall courtes which cannot bee decided without witnesses the calling of witnesses is necessarie Article 13 No Bishoppe ought to appoynt a man to appeare before him to take an othe ex Officio sauing in matters of marriages and willes Answere Many wayes the ignorance of this man that would gladly shewe his skill in lawe appeareth For wee say not in termes of lawe that a man taketh an othe ex officio but that the Iudge proceeding sometime Ex Officio sometime otherwise doeth minister an othe to the partie Againe the bishop doeth not appoynt men to appeare before him but calleth them by proces of lawe But these are but errors in termes A grosser fault it is that he mistaketh lawe For not whatsoeuer Fitzherbert setteth downe is lawe in this case especially of prohibition For nothing is more ordinarie then to reuerse prohibitions by consultations The meaning of the wordes of Fitzherbert or rather of the Register whence he drewe his writte was That men should not bee called into ecclesiasticall courtes to confirme any contract concerning goods or chattels by othe by which meanes the ecclesiastical court encroched vpon other courtes Onely causes Matrimoniall and Testamentarie in that case for to other it cannot bee extended were excepted That in matter of Tithes and other causes men answered vpon their othes is euident for that the 1 Art Cler. 9. Edw. 2. c. 12. Kings tenants as well as others answered before Ordinaries and were by them also excommunicate for their contumacie In matters of Tithes the 2 27. H. 8. contemners of the ecclesiasticall processe by statute are condemned and may bee forced to obey And in another statute it is decreed That the 3 32. H. 8. Ordinarie may conuent such as withholde Tythes according to to the lawes ecclesiasticall Likewise the ecclesiasticall Iudge may by statute proceede against those that 4 Eliz. c. 2. violate the lawes concerning vniformitie of Common prayer yea Fitzherbert 5 Nou. Natur breu fol. 63. graunteth that an ecclesiasticall Iudge may exact a caution iuratorie before he deliuer a man that is in prison vpon the writte De excommunicato capiendo False it is therefore that this bolde and blinde bayarde sayth That byshops boldlie presume against lawe Nay he and his companions boldly presume both against lawe and common humanitie for both doe they runne into fellonies and treasons and also speake against lawes and defend their doinges and raile against others that gently put them in minde of their faultes Article 14 Morning and Euening prayer should be read euery day throughout the yeere but are not Answere How knoweth hee that Morning and Euening prayer is not said If he had frequented Churches so diligently as he ought to haue done he might haue vnderstood the contrary But where it is not said I thinke he liketh vs not the worse for that For no sort of men I except not the Iesuites doe more bitterly raile against our booke and order of Common prayer then his consorts doe And yet this wil I proue that the worst of those prayers are more Christianlike then their extemporall prayers made of broken sighes and sentences for the most part and full fraught with malice and other passions To say nothing of confusion But suppose prayers were not said euery day let him shew where they are so commanded For the Communion booke commandeth them not so peremptorily to be read as the accuser anoweth but alloweth the Curat to omit them when he is lette either with priuate studie or other necessary busines which exception he hath quite forgotten and left out as for Prayers they be in most places vsed and would be more if they were not by these contentious fellowes despised Article 15 The Curate must tolle a Bell yet doeth not he but the Sexten Answere A bloudie fault and great pitie that the Presbyterie with their bels and bables were not admitted if for nothing else yet to take order that belles might bee tolled The preface to the Communion booke doeth onely will the Curate to doe it or to appoynt one to doe it And so it is in most places And if he did it not yet is he not in fault but the parishioners that against his wil appoynt a Sexten that is not at his commandement This Article tendeth as all the practises of puritanes doe to the disgrace of the Ministery whom they would put to all base offices and yet you my masters of the ministerie both see them and suffer them to abuse you and your function Article 18 The people are to answere the Priest and to say Amen Yet doeth the Clarke answere alone in most places Answere If this Accuser had good matter he would not spare that taketh such paines to finde a knot in a rushe picketh quarrels where no cause is For both it is false which he saith that the people answereth not and were it true yet is it not the bishops or others fault but the peoples that will not attend the prayers and say Amen Percase some are phantasticall persons and condemne our forme of prayers some are phrenetical and vnderstand not more fitte to be prayed for then to pray Article 17 Where there is singing there the lessons should be sung in a plaine tune c. Answere Nothing doeth more displease the puritans then church-musicke and singing yet this accuser
directions Neither is the inquisition which we haue deriued from the pope but vsed of al nations contrariwise the inquisition of the cōsistorie is like to the Spanish inquisition the papal proceeding For as in the Spanish inquisition so in the consistorie a man is called knoweth no accuser and whether hee confesse or not hee is sure to abide the order of the consistorie and what they command the ciuill Iudge performeth And therefore if all must away whatsoeuer is borowed from the pope away must the consistorie goe and their excommunication of princes and their absolute tyrannie Quaere if Christ were before the bishops should answere Putcase Quaest 17. beeing demanded of his doctrine I spake openly c. Aske them that hearde me whether he should be committed as M. Bambridge M. Iohnson and other godly ministers This question touching Iohnson and Bambridge concerneth the ecclesiasticall state nothing at all Answere For their cause was heard and ended at Cambridge before the Vicechanceller and his assistants so that it should seeme to bee a case put besides the cause in handling But in the same wee may see that these fellowes meane no lesse to ouerthrow the state priuiledges and iurisdiction of the Vniuersities then of the bishops Marke it therefore you my masters of the Vniuersities These fellowes whom you foster in your bosomes meane to touch your freehold also neither can they conceale their malice against all men of learning To answere this absurd question I say that I cannot chuse but wonder that any shoulde bee so blasphemous and wicked as to compare Christ Iesus the sonne of God vnto Iohnson a factious companion and a wicked heretike Out of Cambridge hee was expulsed for his mutinous Sermon and other leude behauiour From thence he went to Middleborough a retrait of such kinde of fellowes There hee declined into Barrowisme wherein hee now continueth hauing augmented his opinions with many newe fancies of his owne Bambridge a man somewhat wiser then Iohnson yet neyther to be compared with Christ nor any verie discreete or modest Christian Christ neuer declaimed against the state of priests nor did hee spreade newe doctrines nor did he spurne against gouernours These haue done al these things and it is the cōmon practise of all such as bee of this sort Christ did not refuse to answere directly and confessed that he was the sonne of God These stand not vpon their innocencie but vpon tearmes of lawe Neyther doth the example of our Sauiour fit them For hee being asked of his doctrine in generall coulde not otherwise answere then in generall These refuse to answere in particular poyntes which he did neuer and therefore iustly were committed A matter iustifiable both by the lawes of God also the lawes ciuill canon and common If being to answere in the Starre Chamber or Chancerie vnto certaine articles they shoulde answere That they deliuered nothing but publikely and will the examiner to aske them that heard and saw they would bee sent to other places to aduise vpon the matter Further I say it will not fall out in proofe that those men which haue bene conuented before the high Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical are either godly or wise or ministers therefore false it is that he affirmeth them to bee godly ministers and very scandalous to the state whom he setteth forth as a state persecuting Christ Iesus whereas in deed these men by defacing the Church and the gouernours thereof by teaching of erronious doctrine and by raising of stirres about a new gouernment which was neuer heard of in Christs Church do shew themselues enemies of Christ of his Church and of his Gospel and therefore together with Iohnson of whom themselues are now ashamed to bee cast out of the Church vnlesse they shew more signes of amendment Quaere Putcase Quaest 18. if by the iudiciall lawes by the Court in Chauncerie or Starre Chamber any man be forced to sweare before hee knowe the cause at least in generall whereunto he is to take his oath Suppose a man should graunt so much Answere albeit the vse be not alwayes so what will he conclude That the high commissioners proceede contrarie to lawe His purpose is so to doe but his argument will not so conclude vnlesse he shewe that they doe not also declare in generall the summe of the matter to which euery one is to answere But that he cannot doe and therefore I returne him backe to his prompters to frame his case better and doe reiect him as alledging matters not concludent In the meane while let him vnderstand thus much that the proceeding of Ecclesiasticall courtes in exacting of othes is not onely confirmed by all lawes but also by the practise of Geneua the patriarchall sea of puritans Quaere whether Bishops be not bound to confirme children Putcase Quest 19. aswel as Ministers to marrie with a Ring And whether may not popish young men not being confirmed refuse the Communion He would conclude Answere that because Bishops neglect some part of their duetie it is lawfull for his consortes to breake all lawes but the sequele is naught That children are not confirmed the fault is in parents that bring them not of these seducers that preach against confirmation not in Bishops And therefore if any refuse to receiue the Communion it is no reason he shoulde receaue benefite by his owne negligence but rather be punished for both faultes In that he ioyneth popish young men together with fantasticall young Ministers which refuse to marrie with the Ring he doeth not amisse for they doe both consent in oppugning the state and therefore are both to be punished neither will the pleading of the Bishops negligence if any be serue either of them Quaere Putcase Quest 20. whether an Ecclesiasticall Iudge may punish Bristowe for writing that our Communion booke is an apish imitation of the Masse-booke seeing the statute giueth onely that authoritie to Iustices of peace and whether Bristowe deprauing the Communion booke may be depriued of all his spirituall promotions for his first offence c. Item whether the lawe doeth not fauour the puritan as much as the papist The case is absurdly put Answere for it supposeth matters vnprobable as that Bristowe should haue certein spiritual promotions in England had onely offended in speaking against the Communion booke whereas the man did wilfully flye out of his countrie for his mislike of the state and practised diuers treasons and for the same being apprehended committed to prison died there Onely this thing is herein commendable that puritans papistes are very fitly ioyned together in this case Both deny the supremacie alike both depraue the gouernmēt-alike both rayle against our Communion booke alike and therefore that all may be alike both deserue to be vsed alike To the question I answere That the lawe accepteth not of persons but whether Th. Cartwright or Penrie or Bristowe or Allen
tooke for the establishing of theirs 51 Quaere whether T. Cartw. and his fellowes haue not assembled in synodes and conuenticles 2 Examinations in the starre chamber and their own confessions there enacted and decreed certaine rules and orders contrary to her Maiesties lawes and subscribed them and procured others to subscribe them and by all meanes possible gone about to put the same in practise and to discredite and disgrace the lawes of her maiestie and ancient gouernement of the Church Quaere whether in their saide 3 Disciplina sacra orders which they call holy discipline all authoritie in Church causes is not taken from the Christian magistrate and giuen to their assemblies in so much that the magistrate is not so much as mentioned when they talke of their new gouernement and how the sufferance of these proceedinges may stand with the maiestie of a prince or with good gouernment 53 Quaere whether they doe not 1 T.C. pag. 162 163 417. discours of eccl discip pag. 148. 174. holde that the authoritie which they challenge to their elderships and synodes by their said platformes of discipline is neyther increased nor diminished whether the prince bee Christian or heathen and teach not that the authoritie of a Christian and heathen prince is all one in ecclesiasticall causes 54 Quaere 2 That is in part euident by their confessions in the Starre chamber whether Cartwright and his adherentes haue not put the greatest part of their discipline in practise without her Maiesties consent and authoritie and without the sayde authoritie haue not both made secrete meetings and established diuers orders and broched new opinions all contrary to the doctrine confession and gouernement of the Church of England 55 Quaere by what presumption he durst do these things and why hee is not to bee brought publikely to submit himselfe for his faults 56 Quaere whether the same seditious proceedings bee not condemned in certaine actes made in the parliament holden Anno 1584 at Edenborough 57 Quaere 3 In his examinations in the Starre chamber whether Th. Cartwright sware truely in the Starre chamber when hee affirmed on his oath that hee neuer affirmed or allowed that in euery Monarchie there ought to bee certaine magistrates like the Spartaine Ephori with authoritie to depose the king c. seeing the same poynt is in Fenners booke of diuinity which one Th. Cartwr in his Epistle printed before the booke doth highly commende as a profound piece of diuinity and heauenly axiomes and doctrine and whether if some other had so sworne they should not haue bene accounted periured persons and whether by the rules of discipline it bee lawfull for the edification of the consistorie to sweare falsely 58 Quaere 4 Examinations in the Starre chamber published whether haue not T.C. and his fellowes confessed on their oathes that notwithstanding all the care that hath beene taken for the perfecting of their platformes of discipline they are not yet resolued vpon diuers poyntes and whether they did wisely to subscribe such orders or duetifully to animate certaine gentlemen of meane vnderstanding in diuinitie to present such a confused platforme of gouernment to the parliament that it might bee confirmed and receiued throughout the whole Realme and finally whether wisedome will permit men to dissolue a state alreadie setled and to embrace a gouerment whereupon the authours themselues are not yet resolued nor I thinke neuer will bee and wherein others see notorious absurdities imperfections and iniustice 59 Quaere 1 Ibid. whether T.C. and his companions doe not say vpon their othes that they meant to haue bene suiters to her Maiestie and the parliament for the approbation and receiuing of their draught of discipline before mentioned and subscribed vnto by them as a perfect plat of Church gouernement commanded by Gods worde doe not vtterly disclaime by a most necessarie implication her Maiestie to haue any preheminence and authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes by the word of God seeing they doe not giue any authoritie in their perfect platforme to the ciuill magistrate but yeelde all that power to their synodes classes and consistories 60 Quaere whether Cartwr and some of his fellowes and followers were not acquainted with the conspiracie of Hacket 1 Conspiracy for reformation Coppinger and Arthington and whether they knewe not that these fellowes or some of them pretended to haue an extraordinary calling which mooued them to attempt matters which might proue very dangerous to themselues whether also they knew not that the actions which they purposed to attempt by vertue of their calling did tende to their deliuerance out of prison and to the aduancing of the holy cause as they tearmed it and thereupon at Coppingers motion did holde a puritane fast wherein prayers were made to this effect that God woulde giue successe to all such meanes as shoulde bee attempted for the deliuerance of the Saintes of God and for the setting vp of their discipline and whether T. Cartw. and the wiser sort of them did not vnderstand whereto the foresaid allobrogicall and outlandish propositions of extraordinary callings did tend and finally whether all these points being such as in part haue and may fully bee prooued against them they haue not bene mercifully dealt withall and farre aboue their desertes that they haue not hitherto bene called therefore in question 61 Quaere whether Cartw. and his fellowes challenging to their eldership authority to excommunicate princes are not like to prooue as dangerous subiectes as Sanders Parsons or Card. Allen are in maintaining the popes excommunication of her Maiestie and whether it is not likely considering the inconstancie of their discipline and resolutions that although some of them pretend now to holde that excommunication doth not take away ciuill subiection they will notwithstanding for their aduantage teach contrary to their present resolutions 62 Quaere whether some one of the reformed 1 Buchanan de iure regniapud Scot. pag. 70. brotherhood haue not mainteyned in bookes printed that princes standing excommunicate may bee put to death and that when princes will not reforme religion subiects ought to do it and that saint 2 Buchan ibid. pag. 56. 57. Paules precepts of obedience to tyrants bind no further then vntil such time as the people is strong inough to resist be able to master them by force of armes 63 Quaere whether Sanders Rosse Allen and other papistes doe not in the behalfe of poperie maintaine the very same poyntes of rebellion together with Goodman Whittingham Knoxe and their teachers Beza Hotoman Buchanan and whether both factions haue not made princes subiect to the people and populer furie and taught the same doctrine of the beginning of the authoritie of princes the papistes seeking to erect their papacy the disciplinarians endeuouring to set vp their papall presbyterie 64 Quaere whether some of the doctors of this new discipline doe not mislike with the
Church and schooles are contemned I would I might not say discouraged they are made markes for licentious youthes armed with malice to shoote their boltes against the lawes are not onely contemned but most boldly oppugned yea with such confidencie that law is now accounted disorder and faction and tumult termed 2 Petition to her Maiestie reformation and libellers in euill time called reformers what resteth for them to worke but that al wise and learned men being put from gouernment the seely sots which these call elders and certaine famous authors of popular faction should be placed in the highest offices or else that lawes being not executed or Iudges crossed in executing of iustice the contumacious might liue as they list wherein they seeke nothing but that eyther the forreyne enemie may oppresse vs or els inward tumult and disorder consume vs. But I doubt not but her Maiestie and all those that beare office vnder her will take speedie order that it is not alreadie taken many do wonder some doe complayne but the clemencie of her Maiesties times and her benigne nature doth afford vs answere she will not haue any complaine that in this case any are punished but such as are obstinate heynous and notorious disturbers of the state because they were not at the first knowen for such shee would not haue them punished for such besides this the height of the stile and the loude bragges they made of their discipline made many beleeue they did it eyther of simplicitie or zeale or error few suspected the greedines of some and malice and ambition of others their notorious hypocrisie could not of long time be discouered but now their leudnes is apparent and their false visage is dismasked let them therefore beware that they abuse not the clemencie of the times or hope for continuance of vndeserued fauour The vanitie of their bragges and weakenesse of their cause is euident to all that are not eyther wilfully blinded or naturally ignorant All the demonstrations of their discipline are discifred and stand confuted they doe not so much as goe about to defend them their whole plots of false discipline lye razed they cannot say a word for them in this late petition wherein they had occasion to shewe their skill they haue not so much as answered one argument brought by vs against them The defence of Bezamade for his Aldermen most weake and simple as in a desperate cause they haue intreated Beza to say somewhat wherein we may see that their forces are spent to the last man yea so spent that they haue no hope of recouerie for what saith he good man hee telleth vs a long tale of his Geneuian deuises hut neyther doth hee answere our arguments nor bringeth scripture fathers or reason for his cause vnlesse wee beleeue him on his bare word the controuersie is at an end call you this answering this is rather the playne ouerthrowe of his cause for while hee went about to answere he hath confirmed our cause saying nothing either for himselfe or against vs but what he in his olde age dreameth where was T.C. that valiant champion of discipline all this while where was W. Tr. W. Ch. D. Sp. could not one of them speake for their cause but they must send to Geneua for a speaker it is too great and notable a confession of the weakenesse of their cause As for him or that I mistake not them that made the petition lately printed and pretended to be presented to her Maiestie on the behalfe of the Puritans they doe not deserue the name of speakers vnlesse it be among Puritans where euery one that can prate is sayde to speake For what say they for their cause their onely reason is because Caluin Beza Daneus Carpentier Golart Perot Tauergues Pollan Sneccan and a number of other authors of whose names and gestes we should neuer haue heard if these mē had not in this cause brought their names to light doe speake somewhat for their consistorie that therefore we are to like of it A goodly reason yet such a one as I thinke they will not admitte against their discipline For albeit Master R. M.B.M.G. M.A. M.H. M.D. M.W. and infinite other learned and good preachers among vs yea such as one of them is to be vaed against many of these ignorant and presumptuous disciplinarians do like of the present gouernment yet are they not therwith satisfied nay albeit all the ancient Fathers and acts of Counsels do like of the auctoritie gouernment of Bishops yet are these fellowes stil contending against it That the same was established by most learned and godly men that in Q. Maries time gaue their liues for the testimonie of the trueth they litle weigh nay they neither care for them nor their authoritie With what face then can they alledge Golart Pollan Sneccan and a number of birdes of like feather and men neither wise nor learned nor that haue ground of antiquitie or reason seeing they renounce not onely the authoritie of our men more learned then they but of our Martyrs more holy men then they yea and all the writings of the Fathers and actes of Counsels speaking of the authoritie and state of Bishops and such a gouernment as we haue In times past they were wont to tell vs of certaine lawes established by God himselfe and made vante that they would proue their discipline out of Gods word Why then are they now mute why are not these lawes and this worde brought forth why are they silent in bringing forth these mightie reasons when all is come to all must we rest on Golart Pollan Tauergues and Sneccans three or foure odde compagnions idle conceits there can nothing be deuised more absurd nor sencelesse Therefore hauing nothing to say in defence of their cause now in a desperate rage they begin to reuell not onely at Bishops but also at Lawes and Iudges and the ordinarie tryals of this Realme The drift of the petition is to shew that Iohn Vdall was wrongfully condemned they insinuate therein that the Iudges were either corrupted or blinded and that the euidence was wrested They say in plaine tearmes that Iudges haue no skill to deale with such fellowes as Iohn Vdall another kinde of man percase then he is taken to be Is hee trowe you any of Hackets or Coppingers consortes to bring Bishops into hatred they haue after their petition collected diuers Articles and by them and by certaine calumnious interrogatories haue gone about to bring them in disgrace with the multitude that if they cannot haue their desire of their celestiall consistorie they may be yet reuenged of such as they take to be the hinderers of their purposes Whose malice to encounter as before I haue answered their cauils against the ecclesiasticall gouernment of our Church to the vtter disgrace of the Consistorie so now hauing other occasions to print a discourse against Bellarmine and forreine aduersaries of our Church I haue thought good to
nor with his general purpose hauing made this absurd entrance he proceedeth more absurdly his arguments are all drawen from authoritie of late writers a weake kind of reasoning and good for nothing yet as if hee had sayde very much stoutely doth he reuell at Bishoppes Iudges lawes and quarrelth against the state afterward hee gathereth certaine notes of his owne discipline which vnlesse you receiue of his bare word you stop all his glorious proceeding last of all he layeth downe certaine articles and interrogatories It should seeme he hath bene eyther a pettie fogger in law or a clerke in some office or hath bene furnished with these matters by some odde clerke or petie fogger nothing is more simple nor clerkely nor worse beseeming men of learning there is in his writing no good course of words no good frame of sentences no sufficient proofes no order nor sequence of parts His arguments yet are worse then his stile to proue the consistorie and his new conceits of discipline he alledgeth first that the gouernment of Byshops is not so exquisite but that somewhat may bee amended as if it followed because men doo not their dueties or because there are imperfections in men and in proceedings or want of some lawe that the state were to be ouerturned and a newe vncouth and vnruly gouernement by Churchaldermen to be imbraced or els as if a man should say we were to be gouerned by the lawes of Turkes or Iewes because of the faultes of the common lawes nay rather let lawes stand and such Turkish and barbarous conceites of generall innouation bee corrected and faultes of lawes amended Secondly he bringeth in a packe of authorities against Romish bishops as if eyther the ancient Bishops of Rome or the late Bishoppes that preach the Gospell were to be measured by the wickednesse and tyranny of the late Romish Byshops or gouernment were to be taken away because it hath bene abused thirdly he produceth the opinions of Caluin Beza and a packe of others most of them vnlearned and vnknowen as if it were reason to follow them against all antiquitie or as if the gouernement of the Church stood vpon opinion not vpon scripture and ancient lawes and customes Before times these fellowes told vs of a discipline commanded in scriptures this fellow telleth vs of certaine fancies of Caluin Beza and certaine obscure authors newly brought out of corners into light and yet can he not shewe that any of these whome he hath alledged doe in all poynts consent with our platformers to prooue that his partisans offend not against law he alledgeth diuers of their opinions as if it were an excuse for heretikes to say they beleeue well in some few poyntes what punishment then do they deserue that offend both in the opinions alledged and diuers others concealed finally to prooue that his fellowes offending against lawe are not to be punished he sheweth that Bishops also offend against Lawe as if the offence of one were to be an excuse for another or as if a man offend in any small point of law and that not of malice it were lawfull for these fellowes to ouerthrow all lawes and that of selfewill and malicious purpose There is no decorum obserued in the whole discourse the petition is supposed to bee made by the author kneeling before her Maiestie yet doth he often speake to others and quarrell and dispute with those that are absent as if a man making his petition to her Maiestie should suddenly rise vp and quarrell with by standers which not onely is a poynt of absurditie but of the authors old frensie Secondly what is more vnseemely then before the chiefe gouernour to plead as doth the petitioner that all his gouernment is leud antichristian and that his lawes are deuoyde of reason and that iudgementes giuen are vniust and ought to be reuersed and most odiously to raile on the state and gouernours Thirdly seeing this petition is directed to her Maiestie to what ende is the same put in print belike the mans purpose is that so much as the Queene by wisedome shall denie the people by force and furie shall establish which in deede is his drift for the same was neuer presented to her Maiestie but onely to the people Fourthly nothing is more absurde then to handle matters of controuersie by way of supplication seeing he disputeth he should rather haue come in schooles then in court and before lawyers then courtiers Lastly a very vndecent thing it seemeth to me that a man not conuersant in studie of diuinitie should teach diuines that a disordered companion should controllgouernors and lawes that a man lately distracted of his wit should teach law and order neither knowing order nor lawe which course if it may be suffered it is but folly to studie diuinitie or lawe or to maintaine gouernement and a bad incouragement for iudges to do iustice seeing euery ignorant disordered companion shal take on him to control them and to teach lawe to gouerne as it were by reuelation inspiration and fancie what should be the cause that this base fellow should come forth I know not vnlesse this be it that all that were wise foreseeing and eschewing the danger this bedlem writer that neyther foresawe nor sawe any thing being armed with diuers collections of others should say something if for nothing els yet to make shew that they can say somewhat The treatise answereth not to the title for where hee promiseth therein to deliuer a meanes how to compound matters in the whole treatise he doth with all his force endeuour to enkindle warres he rayleth on goueruours and lawes controlleth iudges and goeth about to reuerse iudgements and would if he could ouerthrow all the ecclesiasticall state which sauoureth rather of a humour to fight then to compound and yet is not he the man that must bee the leader of these consistoriall warriours being but a ragazzo fit for nothing but to cary baggage In this his booke hee fighteth no more against vs then against himselfe he sayth hee will neither speake to ouerthrow Bishops nor to erect consistories yet doth he his vttermost malice against Bishops and speaketh what hee can for Consistories and yet nothing to purpose hee professeth hee knoweth not whether part hath better grounde wherein like a simple fellow he not onely confesseth he speaketh of matters he vnderstandeth not but also contrarieth himselfe in denying that hee professeth in the very first entrance he saith that all her Maiesties louing subiectes that loue religion honour her Maiestie and doe desire the good of the Realme doe heartily bewayle the contention of our Church wherin hee pronounceth sentence against himselfe and his consortes as neyther louing ber Maiestie religion nor the state for seeking to enflame this contention by scurrilous libels and interrogatories how can it bee surmised that they doe bewayle this contention do men bewayle that which they doe or doe men seeke peace that against good men throw out their
bolts euen bitter and slanderous words Besides the former the libeller hath also these faultes most fouly hee abuseth scriptures most shamefully hee alledgeth authors most ignorantly hee talketh of lawe and maliciously reuelleth at the ecclesiasticall state in the first page hee abuseth three places of scripture the 1 Prouerb 31. wise man sayth open thy mouth for the dumbe c. by this place he would iustifie his babbling in this treatise but nothing is more impertinent to his purpose then this sentence for the wise man would haue innocents that cannot speake for themselues defended by order and iustice by such as can speake neyther may wee thinke that it was his meaning that euery seditious person shoulde gape and rayle against Lawes and Gouernours for doing iustice or that malefactours shoulde bee defended against lawe and iudges how can then this place agree to his purpose seeing those men whome the libeller defendeth are not innocentes for they were condemned for felonie and tryed according to the lawes of England neyther were they mute when they reuelled against gouernours nor was Iohn Vdall condemned but for speaking too much nor is this busie behauiour of this companion any way allowed nor sedition or libelling priutledged The Prophet sayth further Psal 115. that because hee beleeued therefore he spake which the libeller turneth answere and woulde drawe to this his treatise but it fitteth not for this petition is no answere but rather a rayling libell or challenge neyther proceedeth it of faith but of a foolish disordered conceite of a distempered brayne not yet well seasoned since the authors last bedlem fits and if this bee his beliefe then is his faith built vpon fancie and vpon that which himselfe confesseth he knoweth not Neyther doth it appertayne to his purpose that the Prophet sayth that for Sions sake he will not hold his peace for it is not the cause of Sion Isai 62. nor any good cause but sedition faction fancie conceit and opinion that by him is here defended that to the great scandale of all the watchmen of Sion yea of althat pray for the peace of Ierusalem in the end of his articles against Bishops as if hee were rauished in an ecstasie hee exclameth how long Lord holy and true and saith come Lord Iesu which sentences make much against him for all good men desire that God would trie the cause and that he in iudgement would visite the perturbers of this Church which if once it shal please him to determine to doe then shall hee and such vipers as hee that fret the bowels of the Church which nourisheth them be discouered punished rooted out these may serue you for a tast the rest of his forgeries and forcing of authors shal be touched as they shall offer themselues in their place Neyther may wee thinke that he that maketh so litle conscience to abuse or dally with the scriptures of God hath vsed more religion in handling the writings of men for example to prooue the aldermen of his Church their proceedings he hath alledged Luther Zuinglius Melancthon and many others that are contrarie to these men in their discipline and neuer knewe such aldermen as he speaketh of neyther doth Caluin nor Beza ioyne with him in his seuerall poynts of discipline therefore doth he alledge them in grosse and abuseth his readers with a shew of names the like abuse shall appeare in his quotations of lawe which he by forging and lying maketh to speake contrary to lawe Little doth hee vnderstand of lawe hee neyther knoweth what proceeding of office meaneth nor what is lawe in ministring of othes against which hee argueth neyther any one poynt of common ciuill or Canon lawe of which hee so much standeth but whatsoeuer his knowledge is in lawe his malice in rayling against the state is singuler all which poyntes as they are touched here in a generalitie so hereafter shall bee more particularly layde open and most of his misallegations falsifications malicious slaunders weake proofes and proceedings answered not that eyther the author whose insufficiencie is notorious nor the discourse the weakenesse whereof is too too pitifull deserueth any answere but least that the simplicitie of the ignorant who is easily misled with these great shewes might be abused or iustice be by opinions controlled herein also all men may vnderstand the weakenes of the cause of the Consistorie the boldnesse malice and fashood of the Consistorians and such as contend for it and how fit it were that such as are altogether vncapable of reason should be gouerned if not enforced by lawes The author whatsoeuer he pretendeth for colour proposeth to himselfe to proue diuerse thinges First that the Ecclesiasticall gouernement of the Church of England is to be changed for that doth he meane by reformed Secondly That an Eldership should be established among vs as being a gouernement vsed in the ancient Church and commaunded to be continued in all ages and to the end that his reasons may be weighed he craueth disputation by aduised writing Thirdly he mainteineth that the disciplinarian faction hath not offended against the statute of 23. Eliz. c. 2 and that Iohn Vdal was vniustly condemned Fourthly he would declare That the consistoriall patrons are vniustly slaundered with desire of innouation and their doctrine with disloyaltie or disorder and endeuoreth to excuse himselfe for not declaring himselfe nor setting his name to his petition Lastly by diuers Articles and questions he goeth about to bring the Ecclesiasticall state into enuie and hatred That while men are busie in examining their faultes his clients of the new disguised discipline may escape in the darke and without danger vndermine the estate To meete therfore with his malice and to encounter him in al his turnes I doe purpose by Gods grace to shewe First that the gouernement of the Church of England is most conformable to the practise of the gouernment both vnder the lawe and the gospell and hath testimonie of scriptures confirmation of antiquitie and was neuer gainesaid but of late dayes when factious companions and clouters and tinkers and marchants and men of occcupatiō aspired to Church gouernement and that the cauils and proofes brought by the petitioner against it are fond and foolish Secondly that the noueltie vanitie iniustice and inconueniences of the new gouernement are such as cannot stand with any good or well ordered state wherein also the insufficient pleading of the petitioner for the Consistorie shall be refuted thirdly that Iohn Vdall was iustly condemned and that the platformers are iustly charged not onely with breach of diuers lawes very penall but also with sedition and faction and therefore are most mercifully dealt withall that they are nether in greater number nor in other qualitie punished the vaine glosses that are set vpon their factes and opinions shall be there also wiped away in the last part of this treatise such accusations as the libellor hath brought to disgrace the Ecclesiasticall gouernement
taketh not thereby away apostolical superiority ouer ministers as these manglers of scriptures doe that to build vp one seate of the consistorie haue hewen diuerse scriptures in pieces and racked mens wordes against their meaning neyther in word nor conceit did he euer oppugne the present gouernment Bishop Elmar sometime before hee came abroad into the world supposed the liuings of bishops to bee too great hee knew not then the malice of men nor the state of things now he confesseth therein his ouersight is it not lawfull for him to amend his error especially seeing some men thinke it lawful from knowledge to fall into puritanisme and from a right course to run into error yet do we not vse the benefit of their doubling let them double as much as they wil so they double not with God The like is to be said of bishop Bollingham who if hee erred in speaking against bishops Rochets for against the state I see not where he speaketh yet did hee the same away by repentance but we stand not on mens opinions nor pamphlets nor priuate writings we would once the names of Caluin and Beza and others were laid aside and the cause were examined by scripture and antiquitie which is not partial this T. Cartw. did once professe but now he hath forgotten himselfe would he come backe againe to his old hint he should soone see his owne error if he striue against himselfe no maruell it is if hee striue with others but if he come abroad he must come better furnished with scriptures and reasons Not content to alledge some the libeller ere he passe will needes belye others and among them 1 in his defence of the princes supremacie Doctor Bridges it may bee the consistorie hath giuen him a dispensation to lye for he saith that Doctor Bridges doth iustifie Aerius opinion whereas contrariwise hee saith that albeit Hierome and others did hold that a bishop and priest was one yet was no Aerian whereby it appeareth that hee confesseth Aerius to bee an heretike and denieth others to be Aerians He shamefully likewise belyeth my lorde of Canterburie 2 Pag. 654. lin 54. whom he falsely quoteth maketh to confesse elders for such elders as these men would haue neuer entred into his cōceit only he confesseth that there were ministers in the beginning of the Church that liued in community with bishops which now that the number of Christians is so encreased were not requisite for then should there be infinite nonresidents that he neuer imagined there ought to be elders of the Geneuian making his reasons brought against them doe declare Neyther did the author of the admonition made against the drunken surfet of Martins puritanisme set downe any wordes that import that there was an Eldership vnder the lawe as the libeller affirmeth the wordes are contrary why then should hee imagine that the authors meaning was contrary to his wordes it was saith hee first so set downe admit it were must all compositers errors bee allowed for text I perceiue these fellowes are angrie when a man woulde correct a fault and therefore I feare hee will not amende his fault in lying but I haue heard saith hee that that booke was subscribed by the bishop of Canterburie Lincolne and London as if any thing were more common then vntrueth in the mouthes of puritanes and therefore no maruell if hee haue heard a leasing The author of the remonstrance without any supposall saith plainely Pag. 166. that there neuer were any Church consistorie and therefore what fondnesse is it to suppose him to say that which hee denieth but admitte hee shoulde say if it were in the lawe and Gospell that it were to bee continued yet doth it not followe that it was in the lawe or after for of supposals no direct assertion can bee made vnlesse that which is supposed bee graunted neyther can any man enforce any such conclusion as the libeller imagineth nay hee shall sooner presse the little wit hee hath out of his braynes then gayne such a conclusion for the assumption viz. that the Geneuian Aldermanshippe began vnder the lawe and was practised vnder thè Gospell is but a franticke conceyte in this discrasied mans brayne neyther my lorde of Canterburie sayth it nor any of our side that I knowe Why doeth not the man therefore proue it the reason is euident for that vntrueth cannot be proued let him therefore presse what he can out of the assertions aforesaid he shal sooner wring vergis out of a flint then wring his Consistorie out of scriptures But saith he one Mathew Sutcliffe controlleth both whereunto if he durst haue set to his name I might haue answered that one W. St. and his promptors are deceiued Now I must answere that one certaine worthlesse libeller mistaketh for neither is it true which he auoweth That I protest there was neuer any such gouernement by elders vnder the Gospel yea and such arguments haue I set downe that Th. Cartwr and all the faction haue taken terme to answere neither doe I controwle others that haue trauailed before me in the same argument for all of vs agree that there was neuer any Geneuian Eldership in the world before the erection of it at Geneua and that the Eldership that was in time past was composed of Bishops or of Priestes assistant to the Bishops which were Ministers of the word and sacraments and such as in part in our cathedrall Churches yet continue The third vntrueth is That he saith I suppose if there were Elders vnder the Gospel they were not now necessarie Pag. 213. which the author of the remonstrance affirmeth For I doe not speake of Elders but generally of gouernement conclude most strongly against the platformers That they may not haue their discipline and why forsooth because first it was neuer found in scriptures nor practise and secondly because diuers orders are founde in scripture for externall gouernement which now are out of vse so that both the antecedent being false and consequent nought it is not possible the conclusion should be good but what should I talke of antecedent and consequent with this companion that vnderstandeth neither Logicke nor termes of reason The fourth lye is that I deface forreine Churches writing against the Eldership in Latine make the rent of our Church deeper For I speake in the defence of the state to salue those wounds which these fellowes haue made to pece the rents of our church I neuer speake of forreine churches but honorably neither am I curious in other mens states neither doe I deale with Beza but as with a graue and learned man in this point mistaken destitute in this cause both of wisedomect learning although I haue bene badly requited at his hands againe which course if Beza others would haue taken these contentions that haue troubled our Church woulde neuer haue growen to this height but they would be writing talking against vs yea censuring
nor dispraised for euill doing neither is there any memoriall of their doings nor recorde of their names nor note of their succession nor being in the whole scriptures Nay not so much as the Rabbines or the histories of Philo or Iosep make any mention either of their names life acts death or any thing cōcerning thē which were wondrous strange if any such extrauagant cōmanders had bene for howsoeuer it fareth with others the acts of gouernours cannot lie hidden To be short nothing can be more absurd then that such odde companions as these aldermen are shoulde controll Princes and iudge of religion being most of them without the function of priesthoode or knowledge of diuinitie or good letters The same reasons may also perswade vs that there were no such church gouernours in the Apostles times or after There appeareth first no institution of them Secondly no lawes wherby they are to gouerne Thirdly no act of theirs Fourthly no commendation or reproofe of their persons or doings Fiftly their authoritie was inuested in the Apostles by our Sauiour to whom also the keyes were giuen and not to these false aldermen that come in rather like burners of houses then gouernours of Churches with counterfeite keyes Sixtly in the whole storie of the Acts of the Apostles there is not the least suspicion of them neyther doe they stand vpon any thing but false interpretations of 3 or 4 places of scripture Nor to conclude can any thing be more vnlikely then that our Sauiour Christ Iesus the wisedome of God hauing giuen the keyes of Iurisdiction and knowledge to his Apostles and their successors would take the same from them and hang them at the elbowes of men without authoritie knowledge or discretion such as the Church Aldermen are for the most part In the times succeeding next to the Apostles all histories counsels fathers giue witnesse to the gouernement by bishops in time of persecution and after the time of persecution by bishops vnder the soueraigne direction of Christian Princes Neyther for 1540 yeeres did euer this foolish conceit come in any mens heads that merchantes men of occupation musterd sellers and tinkers were men sufficient for the gouernement of Churches Then which nothing can be deuised more absurd nor inconuenient It is the high way to all heresies for when matters be decided by voyces of men that neuer knewe Scriptures Fathers nor tongues how is it possible that they should teach trueth or continue in trueth or meete with errours this is the principall cause of the multitude of heresies in the lowe Countries The same also would be a Seminarie for schisme for when all parishes and ministers and Consistories haue equall iurisdiction as these fellowes teach that they ought to haue who shall remedie contentions that fall out the synode a mere conceite for what neede they to care for the synode or the censures thereof that by no lawe are subiect to synodes All learning would decay for who should neede to studie if a Taylor comming warme from the shopboard be a man fit to gouerne the church or who can haue any courage to studie where this sacrilegious discipline that hath made hauock of all the reuenues of the church is placed and the stipends that are allotted to learded men shall bee arbitrary and may bee taken away at the discretion of a sort of ignorant marmarchants clownes and men of occupation Fourthly where there is no lawe prescribed how can the Iudges bee kept in temper euen now notwithstanding all lawes and penalties that may be deuised partialitie fauour hatred and other affectons beare sway How much would they sway more if the Consistorie should come in place which is ruled onely by will and pluralitie of voyces and not restrayned but by pretence of God worde which euery man vseth to construe to his owne profit Downe would the princes reuenues fall and the Realme be left without meanes of defence and made vnable to resist the enemie If any man thinke that the spoile of the church should come to the princes hands he abuseth himselfe The spoyles of other places do teach vs what would fall out yea our owne experience may herein sufficiently instruct vs. For albeit in the ouerthrow of Abbeys the Prince had some share yet are not now the Princes of this land able to mainteine that force that in time past they were when great nōbers of both horsemen footmen were maintained at the charge of religious houses the reuenues whereof now are wholy imployed yet scarce able percase to buy some one meane gentlewoman a verdugal so leudly are they spent so great is the pride waste of men the reason of it is this that what they spent thē in mainteining of men the same is now spent in veluets silkes glittering coates Suppose then that the church goods should come to spoyle do you thinke they would be better spent it should seeme no for all is now spent in surfet excesse that in time past was spent in mainteining of men And I knowe where in certaine manors taken from bishops thousands of men were mainteined the reuenues of all which do not now buy peticoates for my mistres the owners wife and her maydens not a man of al their tenāts scarce able to do her Maiestie seruice at his owne charge they are so fined skinned All those that liue by learning should be turned along to picke sallets whereby Poperie hauing no resistance would finde easie entrance and those that are best able being discouraged for want of meanes make least resistance Vnto all these points the Libeller saith but litle only vpon one point he stādeth that the hot pursuers of their pretended reformation haue some inducemēts to thinke that there hath bene in the world some such consistory as he imagineth but where or when he knoweth no certaintie nay he knoweth not what maner of beast the same is His proofes they be so weake that I marueile hee was not ashamed to make muster of them scriptures he bringeth none Aworld to see how those that in oppugning our state were so copious in allegations of scriptures to mainteine their Aldermen and Discipline doe not so much as endeuour to bring any scripture or by reason drawen thence to confirme their cause The Fathers as him selfe confesseth speake obscurely his chiefe helpe is in Caluin Iunius Beza Dancau yea and such obscure compagnions as Bertrand de loques Bastinge Charpentier du Pleurre Golart Iacomot Pollan and a rable of others not worth the naming But if the consent of halfe a score base writers and of bad alloy be so forcible as to perswade the good liking of the consistorie what reason haue wee to stand in defence of our gouernment by bishops which hath the consent of so many generall counsels so many Fathers so many ages yea so many learned men also of our time as these bee and as well learned and godly as the other diuers of whose pietie hath passed
in his Church as these doe fancie I can no where find Neyther is it likely that he should teach that abroad which hee neuer deliuered to his owne Citizens at home Aretius 1 In 1. Cor. 12 speaketh of certaine elders in his Commentaries but whatsoeuer they were hee thinketh that they ought to haue no vse vnder the Christian Magistrate And therefore by this testimonie these fellowes cānot win any vantage That they were not like the disciplinarian Aldermen it may appeare for that during the times of persecution they supplied the magistrates office and dealt in all causes of the first Christians as hee thinketh Of such elders as Aretius speaketh of it may be that Illyricus had some such like conceit But farre were they both from the opinion of them of Geneua concerning their lordly consistorie that climeth vp aboue princes Out of 1 In 1. Cor. 12. Hemingius there cannot any such fancie bee gathered as this of my yong masters the Church aldermen writing vpon the 1. Corinth 12. hee doeth interprete the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ordinances of ecclesiasticall discipline which amounteth nothing to the account of these fellowes yea hee alloweth the 2 Syntagm Heming prerogatiue and authoritie of Bishops aboue other ministers which can beare no sway among these lordly commanders The place of 3 In 1. Cor. 12. Hyperius maketh not to purpose for albeit he be produced by the libeller as a witnesse for the eldership yet doth hee testifie against it for hee saith not that any such aldermen as these conceyue were ioyned with the Bishop in gouernement and equall authoritie but that Bishops vsed the aduise of ancient and graue men not these rough hewen aldermen that are neyther wise nor graue but rather grieuous to Gods Church But most of all doe I wonder what reason the libeller had to cite 4 De reformand abusib ad Imperatorem Bucer who in the place quoted doth not so much as mention any elders much lesse teach their office qualitie and continuance but contrariwise hee sheweth that if there were no other difference betwixt the Papists and him hee would easily yeelde to bishops their titles and dignities and wisheth that Metropolitanes and other bishops woulde returne to the obseruance of ancient Canons And so farre was Bullinger from fauoring any such new packe of aldermen as these woulde haue that hee 5 In libr. erast de excom in fine yeelded his approbation to the opinion of Erastus that denied both the presbytery and presbyteriall censures Zegedin another of this mans witnesses doth say much against him concerning the 6 Loc. Com. pag. 202. superioritie of bishops and newe deuice of doctors and other poynts But where hee speaketh any one worde for the consistorial gouernours the place cannot yet be found what should I stand long in tracing out the notorious falsehood of this forger of false quotations in euery paticuler By these already examined you may vnderstand how honestly hee dealeth in the rest and by this also that it is knowen that the Churches of 1 Onely in the Palsgraues dition they say there is some haunt of the eldership to be found Germanie Denmarke and Zuitzerland doe all repell the eldership yea when certaine factious companions comming from Geneua would haue made some stirre in the ecclesiasticall gouernement at Zuricke Gualter resisted them and the magistrates sent them out of their citie to place their consistories in some other quarter in remotis Likewise doth he report vntrueth concerning M. Nowel M. Fulke and M. Whytaker M. Nowell speaketh some what concerning elders but that he meant the tēporary aldermen that sprung vp first at Geneua and now vse to come from the marchants stall and workehouse into the Church to order matters of faith and doctrine it cannot be surmised Neither hath the libeller any reason to build his fancies vpon M. Fulkes opinions for in the confutation of the notes of the Rhemish Testament he doth defend the gouernement of the Church of England as now it is albeit he was somtime of other mind yet did he afterward retract his former sayings And when Iohn Field contrary to his mind did publish the pamphlet called the learned discourse hee was offended with him and if he had liued would haue confuted the same himselfe Neither do I beleeue that M. Raynolds being so well conuersant in counsels and fathers doth admit an eldership contrary to the sayings and practise of both M. Whitaker is a man of too great iudgement to beleeue the vnlettered improbable deuise of the consistorie And well is it kowen that hee hath taught both publikely and priuately against it Neyther is it likely that hee hath nowe greater reasons to moue him since he maried in the tribe of those that fauour these conceites then before so that when al is come to all the authors of this discipline are 20 or 30 foreine authors and halfe a score English perfumed with the smoke of Geneua and wel read in Caluins Institutions And the grounds of it are not scripture nor antiquitie nor reason but conceyte and foolish fancie and the authoritie of such as deserue no credite speaking in their owne cause If the libeller thinke otherwise let him or else because hee is but a man of a weake brayne and small learning let any of the faction drawfoorth Caluins and Bezaes reasons nay let either Beza himselfe or any of them answere that which hath bene set forth against their opinions already and confirme Caluins and Bezaes weake and euill shapen reasons and then will the vanitie of all the newe platforme and also of these allegations appeare To prooue the continuance of the gouernement by Elders he falsifieth also diuers authors as Zuinglius Oecolampadius Capito Melancthon Bullinger and maketh lyes vpon Fulke and Reynoldes for I thinke master Raynoldes holdeth no such fancy And I am assured that Fulke retracted his opinion so that his onelie reason also for the continuance of the Eldership is because Miconius Micronius and Caluin Beza Daneau and Calueton Colladon Tauergues Perot Iacomot Duple Golart Pollan Perille Henry others neuer heard of in this horisō beleeue the continuance of the consistorial gouernment that we must renounce scriptures fathers and al antiquity which is neither a good nor learned kind of reasoning yet for any thing I can see it is not onely the best but also the onely reason he vseth deny the new fācies that they haue deuised embraced at Geneua you marre the frame of their consistory why wee should credit them against scriptures fathers stories there can be alledged no cause Much lesse is there reason we should beleeue Peter Carpenter a knowen Apostata from religion or Bodin a man better conuersant in pollicy then in diuinity and whose religion was al poperie yet if we should I do not finde any thing in eyther that soundeth to the honor of the Aldermens cause For 1 Aduers Fr.
portum Carpenter the matter is euident for he most bitterly inueigheth against them of Geneua and not very doubtful in 1 Bodini methodus historiae c. 6. Bodin For the wordes alleadged out of Bodin his methode of histories concerne the Aldermen nothing He speaketh of the censure of Bishops and did neuer imagine nor could conceiue that the censures of the Church were put in the hands of prophane men Illa pontificum censura saith he nihil maius aut diuinius cogitari potuit Secondly he doeth not commend the men he speaketh of but the censures for that they were so strictly executed Which commendation if magistrates were as willing to execute the censures of ecclesiastical Iudges with vs as at Geneua they are would no doubt worke like effectes with vs as with them And if the magistrate should not fauour them they would doe litle good in any place Thirdly he commendeth the same censure not as the institution of Christ or as a necessarie pollicie for the Church but as a very good pollitike and ciuill order deuised by men to keepe the common sort in awe But what if Bodin should say somewhat of matters he vnderstoode not his authoritie is very weake in this case being neither good in diuinitie nor excellent in pollicie and neither vnderstanding the state of Geneua nor our countrie and therefore no fit man to make vs here in England new lawes In the Harmony of Confessions there are certaine wordes inserted sounding much to the commendation of the Eldership Neither is it to be marueiled if they of Geneua that collected thē together made the wordes to sound as fauourably as might be for their owne state and gouernement but that all the churches or most of thē yea or any saue the disciples of the Geneuian eldership consent in one harmony of prayses of that forme of discipline cannot be proued No although the authors with 2 See the notes in the latter ende of the harmonie notorious falsifications wresting and forgerie drawe the sentences of the confessions frō their purpose to speake for the presbyterial gouernment Wherefore vnlesse the petitioner can iustifie this kinde of practise there is not so much credit wonne by the vaine names of Carpenter Bodin and the confessions of Churches as there is lost by forgerie falsifications and grosse leasings To strengthen the weake ioynts of this discrasied reason drawen frō authority he saith Frist that the consistorial gouernment is also receiued of the Churches of Heluetia the low countries Millain Poland and Hungarie Secōdly that it is vnder the Turke among the papists wherein he sheweth either singuler malice in lying wilfully or presumptuous ignorance in speaking of matters he vnderstood not For it is wel knowen that the churches of Heluetia neither haue Geneuian elders nor excōmunication And that the churches of the lowe countries to speake nothing of France nor Scotland liue in great confusiō disorder a matter rather to moue vs to refuse the consistorie then to embrace it And likewise it is euident that in Millaine Hungarie there is no visible church but of those that professe poperie And albeit there be some fewe elders amōg the papists of France Germanie and Hungarie yet doe they not shew thēselues nor haue they any allowance or thankes for being there But what maner of conclusion is this That because among papistes and Turkes Elders are receiued that we must also receiue them There are also Anabaptists Arrians and I know not how many heresies among the Turkes papistes which no reason requireth vs to embrace Poperie likewise is professed vnder the Turke not onely this consistorial discipline So that nothing can be more absurde then to conclude that therefore we are to admitte the Consistorie because it is crept in in Turky and among the papistes Likewise it is a vaine bragge to say That in the Church of Geneua Scotland France there bee thousands and ten thousands of the best diuines of the worlde I would the number of them were greater and their learning more excellent then it is I doe not enuie their nombers nor excellēcie but the rewarde of learning taken away and the great decay that hath hapned of late time in those churches doeth both teach vs what is now and what we are to feare and that when the reckonnig of good diuines is made it will come farre short of thousands much shorter of tenne thousands The ignorance want of ministers in France other Consistoriall places is too too lamentable such is the blessing of this countrie that one corner of England is able to match them all eyther in nomber or qualitie of learned men albeit we doe not reason from our owne authoritie The conclusion therefore that this bedlem discourser maketh is too too foppish viz. that Caluin and Beza and Tauergues and Chauueton and Perot and I know not who are more likely to finde out the trueth then the author of the remonstrance and my selfe for no man standeth vpon the authoritie of vs two though the simpler of vs in this cause feareth not T. Cartw. nor W. Trau no nor Beza their patriarke nor all their brags Neither doe I desire any man to beleeue me because I say so this is onely the conclusion of the platformers that beside the authoritie of men can say nothing for themselues But seing the interpretations of the consistoriall faction are fond fantastical singuler and contrary to scriptures to the Iewes histories to all the fathers and counsels yea contrary to all reason good concluding agree badly among thēselues and finally stand vpon the fooleries of the Geneuians their stupide followers vpon their falshood forgerie false allegatiōs abusing of scriptures I do thinke and auow that neither diuinitie nor humaine reason wil permit any man any longer to be abused by them or to giue credit to those that vse them Wherefore cōsidering the weake groundes which the consistoriall gouernement standeth vpon and the forgerie falshood and impudencie whereby it is supported and the disorder and confusion it would worke in the church in learning in lawes in her Maiesties authoritie in her reuenues in euery mans priuate right beside if it were receiued and lastly the seditious lewd courses that some men haue taken to establish the same If some haue bin punished it cannot be denied but that they haue wel deserued it yea that they haue deserued more punishment and lesse fauour For neuer was matter preferred with worse course which I doe not speake for that I would haue either the disciplinarians faultes or penalties aggrauated for the faults are grieuous in ough already and the punishment I referre to our superiors but least any should surmise they are wronged or that the lawes are rigorous or that the proceedings of her Maiestie and officers against them are iniurious For further declaration whereof I haue thought good not onely to answere the vaine cauils of the petitioner against the proceedings of
such authors argumēts as these fellowes as yet delay to answere As for Daneau and certaine pety compagnions defenders thereof their authority is of no weight speaking against such antiquitie and consent and reason The Libeller would also haue the ecclesiasticall state made odious for their misgouernment a very malitious and insufficient course for suppose that 3 or 4 should doe against lawe is it reason that law should be taken away or that many should suffer for a few mens faults how much more vnreasonable is it that the same should bee oppressed for supposed misgouernment That articles are ministred to parties conuented in law and subscription required to lawes is most consonant to lawes neither is any thing in the lawes of England or the statute 25. Henr. 8.19 there to the contrary The Libeller seemeth not to vnderstand himselfe nor others when hee talketh of bishops deuising articles and subscriptions and publishing them in their owne names for there can not be deuised a more absurde kinde of speach Subscriptions are required of others and not published and articles are obiected as priuate meanes to bolt out trueth not as lawes to be practised A course vsuall in all courts of chancery eschecker starrechamber but what reason had this fellowe to obiect to bishops that which they doe not when Th. Cartw. and his 2 At Warwicke Cambridge London c. the actes thereof are euidence sufficient fellowes contrary to the statutes and lawes of the Realme assembled in secrete manner made lawes and subscribed them and published them among themselues and yet are not punished for it They say that bishops appoynting speciall prayers vpon occasion of the inuasion of the Spaniards and other speciall causes doe contrary to that which they require in others but they mistake for those offend not that in euery point of the Communion booke obserue not strict order which the booke in some case aloweth but such malitious felowes as of malitiousnes refuse it and contemptuously oppugne it Neither is the vse of speciall prayers vpon occasion contrary to the vse of the booke of common prayer subscribed vnto with exclusion of all other orders of common prayers for both may stand together Neither did Byshops any thing in this behalfe without her Maiesties speciall commandement But these fellowes are of those that allow not her Maiesties godly orders nor any thing done by Gouernors nor any prayers but fond loose vaine and absurd babbling oraisons of Puritans and seeme to be sory that any should pray against the Spaniards They thinke also and the Libeller affirmeth that it is as lawfull for contentious persons to refuse the surples as for Byshops not to vse pastorall staues But it is most absurde so to say the vse of the surples being consirmed by law the vse of the pastorall staues not being required by lawe or custome But were pastorall staues enioyned by lawe is this a good reason because Bishops offend that euery lawlesse compagnion should passe without controlment That Cawdry was punished by order of lawe is apparant for that the statute doeth authorize the high Commissioners to proceede according to their Commission If any fault were therein cōmitted it was that he was vsed with so 1 His cause was almost two yeeres in handling his conformitie continually being exspected much lenitie Neuer was any more obstinate nor could any man haue more fauor especially without desert for neither had he learning nor other good qualitie nor was any more factious That felonies were examined before the high Commissioners Ec-Ecclesiasticall is a vaine cauill neither doeth it follow because vpon examinations of matters fellonious libels are found out that they proceede to the cognition and determining of felonies Neither do the Ecclesiastical Iudges contray to law either in citations or ministring othes in causes ex officio or punishing lewde factious perturbers of the state If this felow doe maintaine the contrary let him leaue his idle quotations and set downe the wordes of law enforce them by argument to his purpose Otherwise all men may see he goeth about rather to calumniate good men then to iustifie any accusation against his aduersaries If he prooue nothing let him be ashamed to cal his factious compagnions seekers of reformation their libels and friuolous pamphlets bookes of reformation and cease to impugne her Maiesties lawes sentence of Iudges against Iohn Vdall whose fact no man can defend but such as maintaine sedition faction nor praise but such as are enamored of senceles vnlearned hypocrites let him cease to charge the Bishops with seeking his life for they are not his parties nay next to her Maiestie he is to thanke some Bishops for his life for if they had bin as he saith nay if some had not entreated for him percase he had bin hanged all this controuersie taken vp and ended If he cease not percase the world will thinke that Vdall deserued rather more seueritie then is now shewed to him and that the libellers bolde demeanour may procure him to haue iustice for his foolish prating rather then fauour for any wittie reasoning Hitherto all the Libellers dispute is without sequele for admit some one or more shoulde teache falsely or doe against lawe yet is it no reason that euery base compagnion should with open mouth rayle against her Maiesties gouernement and Lawes and call them Antichristian and speake against the whole cleargie yea against Iudges and all that fauour the present gouernment Let those that haue taught falsely be refuted and those that haue done leudly bee punished That the state should be dissolued for the misgouernment of particulars no reason will admit That the platformers offer their liues to prooue their discipline which the libeller alledgeth to excuse thē is a sencelesse reason for no traytors nor felōs deale in any cause that they vndertake but they offer and venture their liues for it yea and Iacke Strawe Hacket offred their liues to prooue their reformation whereas these fellowes contrariwise are very loath to loose liues lands or goods for their discipline and loose nothing but with much grumbling and repining and come farre behinde the Iesuites and Papists in that poynt And so simple is their proofe that if they bee wise they will not venture any thing vpon it for the demonstrations of discipline stande confuted without replye and all their presbyteriall imaginations rest beaten without answere neyther is any argument in all T. C. his great confused Chaos of replyes left vntouched His multiplicitie of wordes wee leaue to factious Puritans that speake ordinarily without sence or matter to play withall To excuse his fellowes silence the Libeller pretendeth want of libertie Printers which cannot iustly be alledged for how can they want printers hauing Waldgraue in Scotland and others at Geneua Middleburg Leyden at commaundement beside their priuate presses Or how can they pretend want of liberty seeing none haue bene long imprisoned and many
came neuer in prison That which the libeller here inserteth againe of other churches whome hee would haue vs to conforme our selues vnto he would neuer haue mentioned if he had vnderstood the grounds of his owne discipline for them selues say that all 1 Discipline de l'esglise Francoise Churches be aequall and it is apparant that euery christian realme and Church is to be gouerned by her owne lawes but these bee the fellowes that would translate the Popedome to Geneua and haue vs fetch lawes from new Rome Seeing then that Iohn Vdall and his compagnions haue mainteined a lewde and fond gouernment neuer heard of in antiquitie and by wicked forgery and lyes haue gone about to disgrace the present state and the gouernours and haue rayled against her Maiestie and lawes and that the Libellers defence is most friuolous it can not bee denyed that they haue written maliciously to diffame her Maiestie And good is were they had stayed in writing but they would not be ruled for T. Cartw. Ioh. Vdall and others were acquainted but too well with Hackets conspiracy His third exception against Iohn Vdals condemnation is for that he wrote not against her Maiesties person But the same is very friuolous for the Maiestie of a prince consisteth in his power lawes gouernement and not in his particuler person or priuate qualities or behauiour Neither are the papists punished for speaking against her person but speaking against her supremacie and lawes Therefore seeing hee confesseth he wrote against her lawes and gouernement hee must also confesse that hee offended against the statute that made it felonie to write malitious diffamatory matters against her Maiesty The preamble declareth as much for that the same pretēdeth that certain persons euil affected to her Maiesty should be suppressed In which number these that would disanul her gouernment and would bring her in subiection to Hackets prophets or the prophetical consistory are especially to be reckoned it was the special meaning of the parliament that the malepartnesse both of papists puritans should be repressed as some there present in parliament do witnesse Neither is it material that penal lawes are of strict interpretation for expound it as strict as you wil. it cannot bee but those that diffame her Maiesty any way either in person or gouernment must fal within the compasse of the statute That which is brought of the statute of 13. Eliz. c. 1. and 1. 2. of Mary 3. is idle talke and concludeth nothing neither is it true that those that account her Maiesties religion lawes heretical and schismatical are without the compasse of the statute that maketh it treason to call her Maiesty schismatike heretike fond likewise it is that he talketh of stealing of horses and contrary to his purpose Seeing hee mainteineth a cōpany of asses that would encroch vpon her Maiesties gouernment steale away thé hearts of her people But saith he her Maiestie is a body politike in fiction which is vntrue for shee is in trueth a politike bodie That is hath a resemblance of a body truly But were she not a politike body at all should it be lawfull to diffame her lawes and gouernement This exception therefore is beside the lawe for be she body politike or no if her Maiestie be diffamed then is an offence committed against that statute Againe he obiecteth that if it be a diffamation of her Maiestie to speake against her ecclesiasticall lawes they should also diffame her Maiesty that speake against the eldership which is an argument like to the resolutions of the eldership that is senceles foppish for admit her Maiesty tollerate the french Church yet doth she not confirme their french lawes no more then they of Geneua confirmed the orders of the English Church at Geneua nor do other confirme cōtrary religions which for some occasions they tollerate so that to speake against the absurd gouernement of that 1 In king Edwards dayes the Churches of strangers were subiect to their superintendents in this Queenes time to the bishops of Canterbury and London against whom while vnkindly they spurne they shewe themselues vngratefull not only vnmindfull of her Maiesties benefits company that contrary to law and couenant haue exempted themselues from the bishops gouernment and erected synodes is to speake in defence of her Maiesties lawes and not against them whereas these fellowes offend in direct oppugning all her Maiesties ecclesiasticall gouernment Sixtly he inferreth because it is not treason to kill bishops or other subiects nor felonie to write or to speake against bishops gouernment that therefore her Maiestie is not diffamed when they are diffamed A reason rather to kill the libellers cause when al men see his malice and ignorance then to hurt others for no man saith her Maiestie is diffamed because libels are writtē against bishops or others but because the same libels doe touch her maiesties gouernment lawes and that not in one or two points but in the very whole body gouernement ecclesiastical of her maiestie and that in most disordered maner and that the authors therof are therefore punished for perturbing the state not for their fond opinions of discipline Neither doth the libellers friuolous talke of politike mēbers or of diffaming the Dukes of Saxony or high Almaine pertaine to this purpose The seditious bookes of the disciplinarian faction haue bene intended against her maiestie nor the Dukes of Saxony or kings of Denmarke albeit they touch them in some sort that maintaine the superiotity of bishops also He saith also that the intention of the parliament was not to protect bishops as if they meant not to maintain the lawes state But admit it be true yet it maketh neither hoat nor colde to this purpose for these seditious fellowes are not condēned for speaking against bishops but for that arguing against them and the ecclesiastical state they proceede in such violent sort that they neither spare her maiesties honor nor her gouernment in ecclesiastical causes that the meaning of the parliament was to represse the malice of puritanes is most certaine for it was expresly mentioned at the time of making the act by diuers of the house and therefore iustly are they to be punished by that statute Further he taketh exception to certain canōs in vse as he supposeth as that womē may not sue their husbands for adultery c. that spiritual kinred hindreth mariage others concerning excōmunication fasting therefore concludeth that if it be lawful for some to find faults with thē yet do not diffame her maiestie that I. Vd. diffamed not her maiestie but both his reason is naught his iudgemēt in law simple for albeit men are not accoūted diffamers of her maiesty that reprehēd some law with modestie yet can no man cal her maiesties gouernmēt antichristian nor raile against her lawes gouernment as idolatrous superstitious without diffamation of her maiestie Nor is the sufferance of
of the belfray take a rope for his paynes Hee belyeth Doctor Bridges shamefully for hee maketh him to say that a Priest may haue a moderate lordly iurisdiction ouer all the Lordes allotment where in trueth hee doeth not so much as mention Lordly iurisdiction but superioritie and that ouer the Cleargie in seuerall Congregations and not in the whole Church Therefore let him make proofe how this superioritie or maintayning of Churchliuings in their proper state can bee drawen to prooue that such as defende the state diffame the Queene or seeeke to mooue insurrection If not let him remember that both hee forgeth and runneth from his purpose like a babbling discourser wandring in a sea of wordes without compasse of style or discretion Likewise hee fableth that Doctor Bancroft writeth that her Maiestie is a petie Pope which is a gracelesse or shamelesse assertion or both for who woulde not bee ashamed but these swelling mindes that thinke they may speake what they list to ascribe that to Master Bancroft that hee reprehendeth in Martin His wordes are playne his minor 1 Pag. 68. saith he meaning Martin viz. that her Maiestie is a pety Pope may thus bee prooued If the Libeller holde on this course of lying hee will prooue many strange and wonderous matters especially among the Disciplinarians whose consistories is built on lyes But if they diffame her Maiestie that holde her to be a pety Pope as the Libeller by many great wordes and vnnecessary proofes in a matter confessed auoweth then is Martin and his partakers felonious diffamers of her Maiestie for hee holdeth that whosoeuer taketh on him the authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall which the Pope had is a petie Pope as before is sayde But that authority the whole parliament giueth to her Maiestie May it therefore please the Libeller to barke against the Parliament or els against Martin Against Master Bancroft that neyther thought it nor wrote it nor spake it but reprehendeth it in the person of Martin there is no cause for him to declayme all this Libelling notwithstanding the petitioner calleth his consortes our brethren but if his brotherhood consist in such scurrilous rayling let him seeke other brethren The brotherhood and felloship of Christians is knowen by loue The badge of puritanisme is vnnaturall and vnkinde and vnbrotherly dealing And therefore I doubt whether they be brethren or no both considering their hereticall opinions and also their vncharitable and vnchristian rayling And yet I say notwitstanding all this vnnaturall dealing that the bishops so much as they might yea too too much haue dealt remissely against such contumatious and worthlesse disturbers of the Church And that not for any thing which appeareth in this accusers wtitings wherein they see nothing but velliacry and presumption and vanitie but in respect of their owne milde natures Christian affection and desire of peace which these fellowes scorned In the ende hee concludeth that considering the doubtfulnesse of these controuersies hee trusteth her Maiestie will take some good order for the peaceable debating of them hauing I say reuelde at full both against ecclesiasticall and ciuill iurisdiction and that before so mightie a prince whose presence he ought more to haue reuerenced hauing also at such time as hee was to speake to her Maiestie talked against all decorum with by standers yea with those that were absent nowe as it were before his death he commeth home to himselfe and prayeth her Maiestie to take some good course for the peaceable ordering of these controuersies as if all her former lawes all her care all her proceedings were not to bee valued in one haire And as if rayling and accusing deserued fauour or his dispute credite or his insolencie pardon I doubt not buther Maiestie of her wisedome seeth the impudencie of the man the weakenesse of the cause the wrong done to others but especially to her selfe her gouernement and her lawes-that others may see it I haue lightly framed this answere lest the foole should enter into conceipt of his wit and others be abused by his malice not in many words for what should I stand about that wherin is nothing but pride ignorance and choller Now because by alledging their opinions he would make the world beleeue that his clients are slandered I wil shew that he 1 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 smootheth some things that are hard and concealeth many things that are worse and therefore that he and his clients are to be taken as they are The words I haue set downe and by them my answere reade with iudgement iudge with equity shewe equity to trueth Obseruations vpon certaine opinions commonly holden by the puritanes and collected by the said author of the petition with answeres to their petitions and desires ioyned with the foresaid opinions The words of the petitioner TO the end it may appeare how vniustly the seekers of reformation are slandered by the bishops Petitioner and others I haue thought good briefly truly to deliuer the opinions of such as sue for reformation which I haue gathered out of their bookes and seene in their practise and heard in conference which I had with them Neither hath the man deliuered his consorts opinions truly Answere nor was it sufficient if hee had meant to cleare them from slander to deliuer some part of their opinions vnlesse he had also deliuered their whole doctrine concerning their consistoriall discipline for what excuse may it bee for an here-tike to beleeue well in some poyntes or for leude men to doe something well But this generall doctrine of theirs neyther doth he nor durst hee deliuer it was somewhat too hoat and sawcie The soueraigntie of the aldermen in making lawes iudging and excommunicating princes dissoluing the lawes of the land taking away her Maiesties prerogatiue in pardoning offences and depriuing her of the argument she hath to shewe her clemencie in in diminishing her reuenues hee concealeth Neither doth hee reueale vnto vs those mysticall rules whereby the consistoriall faction doth ouerthrowe the parliament the apologie and fayth of this Church the Vniuersities and many priuate mens interest Likewise hath he passed ouer in goodly glosing wordes and not once mentioned other dangerous poynts That therefore which hee wanteth to the intent that wee may haue a perfect draught of the alestond of this newe brewed discipline I purpose to set down and to declare vnto you both their doctrine and their practise So that you may perceiue that they are vainely tearmed seekers and sewers for reformation And that the cause wee defende is not the cause of bishops whom we leaue to defend their doings themselues but the cause of God of religion of our countrey of the prince of learning of the whole ministerie against factious mates and heretical schismatikes and enemies of the ministery learning that in these dangerous times go about to make an vproare in their countrey and a spoyle of the rewards of learning If then that which is best in
is offended with not singing which he affirmeth to be no small peccadillio So neither singing nor saying pleaseth them What then is best for them Forsooth silence That any doeth offend in this point when hee is put to it he will not be able to iustifie Article 18 The names of the Communicants before they receiue should be signified to the Curate yet this is not regarded in most places Answere That is not the Curats fault but rather of those that should signifie it if any be Let the Communicants therfore signifie their names The curates to please his maship shall be alwayes readie to open their eares which notwithstanding will not make for the libellers aduantage for if his name be brought hee will be vndoubtedly repelled for an vncharitable person vnsit to communicate among Christians Article 19 Notorious lewd persons be admitted to the Communion yet should the Curate repell such Answere If they doe repell such as it is notorious then is this libeller a notorious lyer yea a lyar and slaunderer in print But hee percase counteth those men notorious offenders which any one suspecteth Which if it were true then are most putitans notorious lewde persons that are commonly suspected for such and not without cause For further answere I say that such as by sentence of the Iudge are pronounced culpable which are in deede notorious offenders are repelled and that to repell others were a course full of disorder and iniustice And lastly that hereafter such notorious rayling puritans as doe slaunder religion shall bee better looked vnto and be repelled both from the Communion and all honest mens societie being enemies of learning and scandales of religion Article 20 The Minister shoulde vse the ornaments appointed by King Edwarde Answere And doeth he not so If any doe otherwise it is of the factious sorte that deserueth punishment But saith the libeller the Clarke doeth also weare a surplice As if it followed because the Clarke weareth a surplice that the Minister doeth not All like as if a man should conclude because Giles Wiggington hath some little witte that this libeller hath none The meaning of the lawe is that such ornaments shall be vsed as were appointed by king Edward where other order should not be takē For later lawes abridge the former If then the accuser can shewe that lawes are not herein obserued he shall doe vs great fauour to name the offenders Article 21 In Cathedrall Churches the Communion should be ministredeuery Sunday at the least Answere If often Communions be commendable then is our Church to be preferred before that of Geneua that communicates onely quarterly Better therefore it were for malice to keepe silence then to say that which is nothing Let him if he can detect those that are culpable Article 22 The Godfathers doe not their duetie neither doe Bishops vrge them Answere Let him shewe that Bishops may doe it by lawe and then reproue them for not doing their duetie If it be left to the conscience of Godfathers to doe their dueties why should the Bishops be charged with other mens faultes Forsooth this libeller meaneth to lay all faultes on the Bishops backes I would to God for my part there were no faults but in Bishops so farre am I from enuying any mans puritie But this puritie I feare is but hypocrisie For many puritans mislike Godfathers and are very impure in life and conuersation Article 23 Bishops are commanded to confirme children yet fewe doe it Answere The puritans commonly deride Confirmation albeit a most auncient and Christian ceremonie This fellowe chargeth Bishops with a great fault for omitting it How will these agree Nay how will this companion verifie his assertion being most vntrue But if any bishops doe not confirme children it is because certaine factious persons haue perswaded the people to refuse it and that verie wickedlie not onely fantastically Article 24 Curates doe not instruct seruants and youth vpon holydayes Answere Causeles doeth this accuser barke against Curates seeing he cannot charge any particuler If he can let him call him before his superiors The exercise is good and godly neither doeth any account it tyrannie to instruct the ignorant But sure great presumption it is for yong puritans publiquely to examine graue and discreete men that know more then themselues and indiscretion to vse examination as the disciplinarians would haue it vsed Article 25 None should be admitted to the Communion that cannot say the Catechisme Therefore Curates should examine communicants and seelude them that be wanting in knowledge Answere Can you shewe any Curates that haue not done their dutie herein If you can carrie them before the Ordinarie they craue no fauour In the meane while learne this lesson of me Shewe not your cancred malice against good Ministers There is none but liueth as well as puritans nor any so base that may of a Pettifogger or Scriuano be contemned nor any that is more ignorant in their Catechisme then puritans that neuer enter deeper then the paraphrase of their Creede and pater noster Article 26 Banes should be asked three seueral Sundayes in the open Church yet the Bishops dispence with banes Answere In the booke it is Sundayes and Holy dayes this is therefore his first error The second is that he misliketh dispensations for both by law and customes of this Church and for good causes are they granted Neither doeth the affirmatiue without the negatiue in any lawe take away a custome that may stand with the lawe as in this case The lawe will haue banes three seuerall dayes proclaymed That no dispensation be graunted the lawe hath not Wherefore seeing dispensations are confirmed by lawe and not taken away by this Rubricke let the accuser holde his peace and cease to proclaime his owne follie and to worke the bane of his cause and finally while he would shewe skil in lawe to proue himselfe deuoyde of lawe and reason Article 27 The partie presented to the Bishop should weare a plaine Albe yet this garment is not vsed Answere In the booke of ordering Ministers there is no such garment appointed And if it were yet were it no such disorder as this charitable man maketh it that would haue the bishops thrust out of their liuings yea out of the Church for committing it But suppose Deacons should weare an Albe how is the neglect of it ascribed to Bishops and not rather to the partie that knoweth not his duetie or of new curiositie that can abide none apparell but of the Geneuian fashion would this libeller were a yellow cote it would become him better then an Albe Article 28 The Deacon by part of his office ought to search for the poore sicke and impotent of the parish and intimate their estates to the Curate But now the office is accompted mere spirituall Answere He ought onelie to doe it where he is so appointed which clause this accuser meaning no good trueth cautelously left out That he should only attend the poore and
sicke cannot bee prooued eyther by scriptures or fathers In Geneua the Deaconship is turned into a vaine office of Proctorship for the poore managed by men of base trades Why then doth he accuse others that is guilty himselfe Article 29 The Deacon must reade the Gospell in the day of his ordination putting on a tunicle but this vesture is scarcely knowen at this day Answere The booke of ordeyning of ministers printed Anno 1559. and confirmed by parliament hath no such matter And therfore vnlesse hee can shewe his author for his tunicle let him weare the tunicle together with his foure elbowed iacket himselfe But admit some piece of apparell were omitted in deacons yet is the fault not great nor to bee ascribed to any but to those that commit the same Article 30 The bishops at the ordination of ministers do tell them the weight of their charges and what labour they ought to take yet most of them are neuer resident Answere If they labour not as they shoulde doe let them bee punished If they bee absent for lawfull causes and at times why are they more blamed then the skittish puritanes that notwithstanding their charge are like malecontent and mutinous persons still wandring vp and downe to places where they haue nought to doe rather to trouble the state then to edifie the Church and rather hinder others labours by spreading of false doctrine and nouelties then helpe by teaching faith and maners Article 31 The lawe woulde haue them giue themselues to their function yet many attend ciuill and worldly affaires Answere If ciuill and ecclesiasticall causes bee so repugnant as is pretended why doe ministers gouerne their families or colledges or what hath T. Cartw. to meddle with the charge of his hospitall a matter meere ciuill and wherein he hath done more good then in ecclesiasticall causes For he hath bestirred himselfe so that what by rewardes what by auailes of his hospitall and pinching those that are committed to his charge and what by buying and selling the man is growen fatte and rich Of his ministery wee see no fruit but contention and trouble Percase hee will say hee is no minister But why then doth hee meddle with the ministers office like to him are his followers men verie stirring and busie in all matters of state howsoeuer this man misliketh them therin Contrariwise for subiectes to execute the commaundementes of the prince and to see their ministerie also discharged is commendable and not onely allowable The lawes of God and the lande allowe it Wherefore then shoulde hee maliciously condemne that which hee cannot disprooue Article 32 Bishops only excommunicate and suspend yet by the booke of ordering ministers euery one is to administer the discipline of Christ And Christ hath giuen the keyes equally Answere The lawe is misreported and misinterpreted For the words are that ministers shoulde minister discipline as this Church hath receiued it and so they doe And by discipline is admonition publicke and priuate and preaching and executing the ordinaries sentence vnderstoode That euery minister by law shoulde excommunicate or suspend others equally cannot bee prooued the keyes were giuen to the Church yet euery one doth not vse them equally the priests of the lawe were all partakers of the priesthoode yet might not all doe all things All were not Iudges nor gouernours nor looked to all things But these fellowes would haue an Anabaptistical equallity brought in that such as haue no merite to mount higher may bring downe others lower make them equall to themselues Both the wordes and practise of the lawe make against the libeller besides all this it woulde bee infinitely inconuenient and absurde if such armes as the Church censures were put in euery cockebrayned fellowes handling and such odde fellowes as the puritanes are made gouernours of the Church equall with the best Article 33 The Bishops Chapplaynes and Doctors vse not priuate admonition in their Cures Answere Many things the libeller affirmeth and prooueth nothing So that it should seeme he taketh pleasure in talking and calumniating But suppose they did not folow the course of puritanes in priuate and parlour admonitions paraphrases is not the office of the minister publike not priuate must he as these puritanes do creepe into womens closets or must he put his feete vnder euery marchant mans table their shriue them such admonitions as the office of ministers and lawes require they do vse The course of puritanes in their priuate exercises and paraphrases they take neither to be commaunded by law nor to bee suffred in reason for the manifold abuses of it and much more credite were it for the puritanes if they had neuer begunne their table sermons nor secrete conference and catechizations of other mens wiues and daughters Article 34 The bishops admit not preachers to preach without licence and make vnpreaching ministers and ordeine ministers without Cure and preach out of Apocrypha against law Answere Neither doe they herein against lawe nor reason For albeit ministers haue by their ordination power to announce the worde by reading yet is it not fitte that euery one should expond it but such as haue learning that is knowen by long experience and must bee testified by writing And good it were that many that take vpon them to preach were turned backe to read For they marre and abuse many good texts of scripture fill the peoples eares with nouelties and want discretion to profit them either in faith or maners Secondly they make none vnpreaching ministers but giue euerie one licence to announce the worde by reading and priuate admonition albeit not by publique exposition Neyther if they shoulde make ministers such onely as can breake the worde aright and are answerable to Saint Paules rules should they finde many such among the conceited sort that preach not Gods word but their owne conceits Thirdly it is not vnfit nor against lawe that men learned should be made ministers though presently they haue no cures nor doth the booke of making ministers condemne it For albeit the word congregation bee vsed yet nameth it no speciall congregation Finally it is not vsuall for any to chuse textes out of the Apocryphall Scriptures yet if any do so the offence is not great seeing for maners they are to bee read and hauing confirmation of Canonicall scriptures are to be receiued That which he saith of bishops that they take away letters of orders vpon euery supposed misdemeanour is vntrue For neither doe they offer it nor may they doe it by lawe Article 35 Seldome doe bishops at the time of their consecration vse Coapes and neuer vse they pastorall staues yet both required by law Answere Neyther Coapes nor pastorall staues are by lawe enioyned to bee vsed The booke of ordering ministers printed Anno 1559. shall witnesse with mee that I say trueth yet in mine opinion it were not amisse to vse pastorall staues if for none other cause yet to beate such
mouthed Libellers and enemies of the Ministerie professed doe call honest men it is not materiall I know none marieth but such as haue allowance sufficient of their choyce If they haue not let the offenders be corrected and not innocents be disgraced for others offence why they should be called forward I know not seing none is so forward in marrying as the Puritan sort of whom I knowe none that hath the gift of continencie but would they cease to disgrace others I could for my part be contēt they should vse their libertie prouided alwayes they make not too great post haste nor without regard and consideration of their future wiues qualities leape into sodaine mischiefe Article 44 The clergie people goe not in their habits and square caps Answere What do the Puritan people forsooth they square it out for the most part in new fashiond conceited apparel are all clad in Satin veluet and costly apparel and braue it like people of a new gouernment some for humility sake goe in flat caps others go like clownes in russet clokes well they may for their religion is a russet religion good for none but russet cotes such as fauour populer gouernment fitting none but our rusticall platformers whose maners are rude vnciuill that men go not more orderly this faction is cause which maketh warre against the ministery and by all meanes seeketh to offer them scorne Article 45 The Bishops Officials allow none to be absent from their owne parish vnlesse they will pay a Marke for a licence yet law suffreth men to heare Sermons other where Answere Law restraineth men to their owne parishes but lust would be gadding abroad to see what is done elswhere for which if any officials graunt licence contrary to lawe there is law to correct them but why this man should be so offended with taking money for licēces I see no cause seing his deare friēds yea himselfe too vseth more taking then giuing and considering that Pettifoggers Scriuanoes such as the authors of this booke seeme to be liue by taking take without licence and contrary both to licence and law and haue wonne more by taking then others by long seruice and for all their pretended hypocrisie will neither spend nor loose commoditie for their puritane cause why men should not be suffered to frequent factious sermons there be diuers causes it is the way to faction sectes heresie and tumults and diuers other disorders Article 46 Songs in Churches should be distinct and modest Answere So they are but the Libellers eares were percase so out of tune that he could not iudge when he heard them for how can his eares be in tune whose wits not long since were in so great discord In the opinion of all wise men that can iudge and haue skill our church musicke is distinct modest and graue and farre passing the discordant tunes of Puritans Article 47 None of the Queenes subiectes should call one another hereticke nor scismaticke but we are so called and Puritans too by certaine Libellers Answere Yea and that very iustly too if you mayntaine this Libell and your newe booke of prayers and their most seditious and hereticall pamphlets of T. C. and others neither are they Libellers in so calling you nor doeth the Iniunction protect factious mates but quiet and good subiects such as you will not shew your selues to be rayling and reuelling at Lawes and gouernours in most shamefull sort and therefore disdayne not to be called by your names nor wonder if you be beaten with your owne weapons Article 48 Bishops and their Chapleyns seldome make a legge at the name of Iesus vnlesse it be at the reading of the Gospell nor remember Iesus but when they lustily sweare by Iesus Answere All Puritans vtterly mislike this bowing at the name of Iesus this semypuritan and demychristian misliketh the omitting of it therein condemning all his companions as contumacious lawbreakers and not proouing any matter against his aduersaries for which both one and other haue cause to mislike him but especially for lying and slaundering of Gouernours wherein hee sheweth his full malice and choler in charging them and want of matter in conuincing them The Puritanes speake nothing without protesting doe you not call that swearing no it is forswearing for when they protest deepest then commonly they dissemble most and performe least yea many of these seeme with the Priscilianites to haue litle regarde of othes as appeareth by their examinations If he knew any of his aduersaries that offendeth in swearing I doubt not but they shoulde heare it Article 49 The Queene accompteth them good subiectes that acknowledge her Maiestie to be sole supreme gouernour ouer all her subiect in all her Dominions The Bishops doe not Answere If nothing els were to bee respected but this poynt then were all lesuites and Seminarie men and other traytors good subiectes for they doubt not to giue her the title of sole supreme Gouernour ouer all her subiects but that she hath authoritie to make Ecclesiasticall lawes and iudge in Ecclesiasticall causes and to appoynt Iudges and officers to iudge therein that no other hath power ouer her Maiestie neither Iesuites nor Puritans will confesse therefore vnlesse they acknowledge all the rest of her Maiesties prerogatiues and shewe more obedience to Lawes then hitherto they haue done they can not so easily scape the notes of disloyaltie Article 50 The Bishops haue not punished offendors against Iniunctions but are onely carefull to vrge subscriptions othes ex officio c. Answere If the Bishops haue not done their dueties why doest not thou make thy selfe party and accuse them they stand vpon their defence why commest thou not foorth in thy likenesse to charge them In the meane while take this answere that offences must first bee knowen and then punished and secondly that bishops haue suffered as fewe knowen offences to escape vnpunished as any other officers thirdly that those offences that tend to the ouerthrowe of the State are most narrowly looked vnto and lastly that he is a lewde mate that doeth picke quarrels with others for not executing those Lawes which himselfe doeth mislike As concerning their vrging of subscriptions and conuenting those that are disobedient to law the Bishops haue offended in nothing more then that they haue not bene more peremptorie in vrging them no State nor Gouernours euer suffered such notorious disloyaltie so long vnpunished Article 51 Bishops take extraordinarily for licences to preache contrarie to their owne aduertisements of licentious Preachers no licence is required Answere Shewe who they bee that take so much and who these licencious Preachers bee or els men will esteeme thee a licencious Libeller for mine owne part I knowe none more licencious then thy selfe and thy consortes which with all impunitie speake against Lawes and take to themselues libertie both to liue and beleeue as they list and for taking surpasse all other takers taking both from Church and
or any other offend it doeth decree them to be punished if they be caught Neither haue they wrong that are depriued of their ecclesiasticall liuings for their first offence in deprauing the Communion booke For the statute doeth not onely authorize ciuile Iudges to proceede ciuillie but also ecclesiasticall Iudges to proceede to depriuation according to ecclesiasticall lawes But this companion either did not reade the statute or would not report it for then his falshood should haue appeared and his calumniation in leauing a prouiso out of the statute should haue bene reproued Concerning the Communion booke I say it is not materiall what either Bristowe or this Put-case saith of it being both enemies of the state and lying without reason and conscience The puritans haue gone about to reforme it but their new booke is such as they may be greatly ashamed of it being full of false doctrine and fauouring a fond and loose gouernement and fraught with most vaine discourses and verball speeches Quaere Putcase Quest 21. whether adulterie is to be punished by the Ordinarie seeing the punishmēt thereof without any sauing to the spiritual court is giuen by statute to Iustices of peace and whether a man may be punished by two corporall or pecuniarie punishments in two seuerall Courtes for one and the same cause The put-case tryeth himselfe to be a very proper fellow Answere to become a procter speaker in the behalfe of adulterers fornicators Percase it concerneth him neerer then I am aware of but let him against the next time vnderstand the case better that he speaketh in For it is a shame for a procter in these cases not to vnderstand the difference betwixt adulterie fornicatiō and also to say that the lawe giueth the punishement of adultery to Iustices only for in that statute there is not so much as mentiō of adulterie but of bastardy And how bastards may be gottē in lawful wedlocke he wil hardly define considering the Common law which saieth that all children borne in matrimonie the husband being Intra quatuor maria are lawfull For my part so that adulterie and fomication bee punished seuerely I doe not care That the statute doeth not hinder the ecclesiastical Iudges proceeding it is euident for that there is no clause to annull his course neither is it the intendement of the statute to fauour such lewde persons But saith he it is no reason that one should be punished both in the ecclesiasticall ciuill courts for one fault wherein he doth not only contrarie vs but Th. Cartwright also who giueth the cognition of felonies and treasons to his newe consistorie and would haue offenders herein to acknowldge their faultes there also which is directlie contrarie to the statute lawes To answere his question I deny that offenders which are for incontinencie cōuented are twise punished for one fault for both the Ecclesiasticall and ciuile court make vp their full punishment Neither doe they against lawe that for reasonable causes the partie consenting do commute the penance This I wot if the ecclesiastical Iudges would deale as some Iustices of peace haue done in this case that fornication such matters should for the most part passe without examination or controlement Quaere if any Ordinaries haue contriued promulgued Putcase Quest 22. and published Articles in his own name without assent of her maiestic vnder seale and inforced her highnes subiectes to subscribe vnto the same and for not subscribing haue suspended or depriued them whether an Ordinarie thus doing 25. H. 8. c. 19. 1. Eliz. c. 1. may not be imprisoned and fined at the Queenes pleasure If the Put-case would haue made any inquirie Answere whether Th. Cartwright his fellowes haue offended against the statute prohibiting the making of ecclesiasticall Canons hee might haue found it out easily For the acts are euery where extant their doings knowen And yet are they not fined nor al of them imprisoned for it Neither do the ecclesiasticall Ordinaries refuse to bee punished if they can bee conuicted of any such notorious offence The subscriptions which haue bene required were no newe lawes as these fellowes conceaue but confirmations and allowances of the olde yet nothing hath bin herein done but by allowance As for the proceedinges vsed against the Consistorialls they haue bene most milde and gentle not for denyall of subscription as this man pretendeth but for other factious seditious and lewde behauiour obiected to them and remayning in record whose cause let him moue as oft as he will yet shall he neuer haue honor by it Quaere Putcase Quest 23.24 25. whether an Ordinarie may cite a man to appeare before him in his court to depose as witnesse c. Item whether a man shall be examined by othe of any thing that soundeth to his reproch c. Item whether if an Ordinary cite men Ex officio to sweare to accuse themselues in causes neither Matrimoniall nor Testamentary a prohibition wil lie against him or not Item whether the cause depending in the Starre chamber the Ecclesiastiall Iudges shoulde not cease their proceedings And last of all whether the Iudges and wisest lawyers doe not condemne the proceedings of prelates To most of this I haue already spoken Answere and doubt not but therby there appeareth neither reasō nor honestie nor law nor ought else saue malice in this demaundants questions Yet thus much I answere further First that if the Iudge could not call witnesses before him there would bee no triall nor proofe in matters of doubt Secondly that in diuers criminall causes both Gods lawes and the lawes of this realme doe require that the partie answere vpon his othe Thirdly that there lyeth no prohibition for that the Ordinarie dealeth in causes orderly and according to warrant of lawe Neither is it reason that the Ecclesiasticall Iudges should cease doing of iustice against all the perturbers of this Church because there was sometimes one matter depending in the Starre-chamber against some fewe of them For where the ecclesiasticall Iudge is prohibited to proceede in one cause yet doth he notwithstanding proceede in others of like nature concerning other parties Much rather then ought they to proceede not being prohibited and in cases that are diuerse especially now that the cotumacious dealing of the Puritans is by the iudgement of the reuerend Iudges and most sufficient lawers in England condemned and the cause now dismissed the courte and diuers consultations brought after prohibitions graunted out of some courts in that cause Neither doe I thinke that either maister Cooke a man too learned not to knowe and two wise to fauour such perturbers of the state as the seare or any Iudge or learned lawyer wil condemne the proceedings of ecclesiasticall courtes in these cases as being contrary to lawe The writte in the Register which seemeth to giue leaue to Ordinaries to sweare men in causes Testamentarie and Matrimoniall is proued to be miscōstrued
from them in externall forme and ceremonies As Papists doe make treason religion so it may bee Answere that these schismatikes for their misdemeanours woulde bee accounted religious Otherwise it is euident that neither Papists nor Puritanes suffer for religion in England And therefore euil doeth it seeme that they seeke reformation or deserue to be called seekers of reformation and wel doth it appeare that they haue a bad religion and conscience that colour their lewdnesse with religion and lye without conscience As for persecution it is a terme ill applied to the proceedings of our Bishops and lewdly are they compared with traiterous papists against whom they stand in cōtinuall warfare For neither doe they conuent any but for transgressing the lawes nor do they impose punishments but vpon the rebellious those very easie punishmēts which in time of popery were death euen for denial of the least ceremony which this Putcase not vnderstanding he sheweth himself to babble of matters that he vnderstandeth not That bishops did offer life to Vdal for I knowe none but him and Hacket and a traytor in Suffolke condemned about these matters it is absurd to affirme For not they but others condemned him Neither is it in their power to graunt life nor in their wisedome to offer that which they cannot graunt And if they should bee so remisse as to bee meanes to her Maiestie for them yet would it argue their elemencie in going about to procure their liues that seeke the bishops ouerthrowe nay that most factiously goe about to ouerthrowe the Church the state and the rewards of learned men Quaere Putcase Quaest 33. whether he that publisheth bookes with long premeditation doth publish the same with a malicious intent True Answere if they be malicious bookes such as this libel is and such as the Demonstration of discipline and Martins ribauldrie was Neither is the case alike of a Sergeant arguing against the trueth in his Clients cause and of these that with out fee argue against both trueth and state For it is well knowen hee doth it for his fee and taketh heede howe hee offendeth against lawe but these leauing the case doe argue or rather rayle against the person yea against lawe and honestie Quaere Putcase Quaest 33. whether ecclesiasticall Iudges doe not giue sentence contrary to the common lawes and statutes of the realme and whether prohibitions doe not lye in such cases No doubt Answere there lyeth a prohibition if they proceed contrary to law But men learned will take heed they do not and especially seeing they haue such Canarian birdes as this looking vpon their doings and watching for the spoyle But let them take heede for in warres the spoyler is often spoyled and those that digge pits for the innocent fall into them themselues Quaere Putcase Quaest 34. whether hishops are not in praemunire or at least desere to be imprisoned and fined for practising popish and ciuill lawes in their courts seeing all forreine authoritie is banished and those canons and constitutions prouinciall and synodall onely authorized that haue bene made in England Litle doth this dolt knowe Answere what the praemunire meaneth If he did he would not so often flourish with the sword and doe no hurt Those incurre the praemunire which drawe the Queenes Subiects into forreine courtes out of the Queenes courts seeke to defeate iudgements giuen in the Queenes courts Likewise he is ignorant what lawes are practised in the ecclesiasticall courts For there are no lawes practised there but the Queenes lawes viz. such canons as were practised in England before the making of the Act. 25. Hen. 8. ca. 19 and not as this fondling saith such canons as were made in England Good it were therefore that some of his company would eyther admonish him or premonish him hereafter to leaue babbling of matters which hee knoweth not For it is either plaine impudencie or lunacie so to wrangle Quaere whether the bishops or the consistorie Putcase Quaest 35. encroch more vpon the ciuill magistrate That is a matter most easily answered For the bishops Answere albeit they deale in testamentarie causes tithes mariages and haue Baronies and sometimes deale as Iustices of peace yet all this authoritie they haue vnder the prince and from him they deriue it Contrariwise the consistorie draweth no authoritie from the prince but contendeth with the prince about supreme authoritie It giueth lawe to the prince it doth chastise and iudge the prince vnder colour of the breach of Gods lawe it doth encroch vpon all causes and controlleth all that are subiects to Gods lawe whereof the same doth take it selfe to be iudge It chooseth and deposeth all officers of the Church nay it deposeth princes if the fautors of it say true These therefore bee the fellowes that encroch nay that treade downe princes and as Th. Cartwright sayeth make princes to licke the dust of their feete As for that which this Putcase alledgeth that the Archbishop giueth the prince dispensations vnder his hand and seale it is a fable Let him shewe any of these licences so graunted But sayeth hee the lawe saith hee may well then let him quarrell with the lawe and not with the Archbishop who challengeth nothing as these doe but by the princes grant Besides that lawe was made to exclude all forreyne iurisdiction which these men woulde gladly bring in That which the libeller sayth of excommunication for mony is a leud calumniation long since answered Forwel it is knowen that no man is excommunicated for money but for disobedience to the Iudges decree and sentence And as those that will not yeelde to the ciuill Iudges sentence euen in the smallest matters are compelled by imprisoment so those that refuse to obey the ecclesiasticall Iudge are compelled by ecclesiasticall censures For they themselues doe interprete these wordes He that will not heare the Church c. to bee vnderstood both of great and small matters Quaere Putcase Quaest 37. if Moses vnder the law and Timothee and others vnder the Gospell needed to haue a forme of gouernment of the Church prescribed to them by the Lord whether it bee likely that the Lorde woulde commit the Church to M. Whitg M. Cooper M. Bancroft and others to frame a gouernement for it at their pleasures The Lord doth not commit his Church to bee gouerned by any at their pleasures Answere least of all to the aldermen and new consistories things like toodestooles the last night risen out of the ground and ruling al things without reine or restraint of reason It might haue pleased this libeller in naming these men to vse other names if not for authoritie they beare yet for common ciuilities sake but he will perchance shewe that he neyther respecteth authoritie nor ciuilitie but meaneth to reuell at all that resist his fancie and that iniuriously for neyther these excellent men nor others doe hold it lawfull to frame a fond
new gouernement at pleasure nor doth any of them doubt but that the gouerment of the Church of England is Apostolicall and that the gouernement by elders is both new and fantasticall Quaere Putcase Quaest 36. if Iohn at Stile shoulde grant there was a gouernement by elders in the primitiue Apostolicall and best Church and shoulde call the same gouernement a popedome and tyrannie whether this did not rankly smell of detestable atheisme If Iohn at Stile should say as much as this libeller hath said in his libell Answere hee might percase change his stile and bee called Iohn at Gibet for these bee matters worthy Gibets but concerning this matter I thinke Iohn at Stile will not say that there was euer such a packe of Church-aldermen as this faction vseth in their Consistories And if hee should say so hee should say vntrueth neyther were the Elders in the primitiue Church or after other then Apostles and ministers of the worde All the ancient Fathers were ignorant of this newe gouernment yet was it not Atheisme in them to say it as this wicked and hypocriticall Atheist auoweth nor are these Atheistes that impugne the fonde Consistorie or that affirme that the newe gouernment is tyrannie nay which is worse that it is meere foolerie but those that wrest Gods worde and lye shamefully to proue it For what more sottish sencelesse gouernment can there be then to make clownes iudges of learning religion and controuersies of diuinitie or more absurde then to refuse that gouernment that euer was in the church Quaere whether the Churches in Scotlande France Put-case Quest 38. the lowe countreyes Hungary Poland Bohemia Saxony Heluetia and the County Palatine of Rhene and whether Zuinglius Oecolampadius Melancthon Bucer Caluin Zanchus Martyr infinite other the most excellent diuines in all the world commending the continuance of the Eldership be all Anabaptistes Puritans rebellious Traytors Marstates Marlawes Marprinces and Maralles and D. Bancroft M. Sutcliffe c the onely good subiectes in all the worlde As we do not willingly condemne other churches in their gouernment Answere so we thinke Beza and others might haue done more wisely discretely not so rashly to haue censured ours especially pronouncing without hearing both parties and sitting iudge in his owne cause and speaking neither good diuinitie nor good lawe nor good reason yet we say if any of these aboue named should in this state go about to place the eldership so contrary to a monarchicall regiment he should haue done therein no good office nor discharged the ductie of a wise man this I say further that this libeller doeth make most shamefull lyes where hee nameth many churches and many learned men as fauourers of the new Eldership whereas in trueth they neuer knewe what it meant It is not in Saxonye Bohemia Polande Hungary nor in many places in the low countreyes and where it is the same continueth with small profit and much displeasure The countie Palatine of Rhene hath after many styrres cōditionally receiued it Heluetia neuer had it neither Oecolampadius nor Zuinglius nor Melancthon euer knew it nor I thinke the rest What a shamelesse fellow then was this thus impudently to lye nay Saxony hath superintendents and so sometimes had Scotlande and Tossane they say is generall superintendent of all the Palsgraues dominions concerning Church causes and the Churches of Strangers in Englande in King Edwardes dayes had superintendents Melancthon and Zanchus liked our bishops and therefore none of these are like to our factious Puritans And as for Doctor Bancroft and my selfe they cannot say but that wee are good subiectes nor note vs with any disloyaltie But beside vs the least of thousandes there are infinite more good subiectes and learned men of which nomber the Puritans are none all which stande against the factious gouernment of the Elderships maintaine the ancient apostolicall orders of the Church That the best Diuines in the worlde should hold with the Eldership is a fancy for all the ancient Fathers were ignorant of it and the godly martyrs of our land in Queene Maries time refused it beside them infinite learned men all which hold with bishops which these condemne chuse you therefore whether you will follow all antiquitie or Th. Cartwright Giles Wigg Iohn Penry Tauergius Caluetus and such tagrag fellowes percase great fauourers of the church-aldermen but neyther wise nor learned Quaere Put-case Quest 39. whether the Kings of France and Scotlande the princes of Condè and Orenge the duke of Saxony the countie palatine of Rhene the States of the lowe countreyes many other Dukes Princes Marquesses Earles Barons and other christian and noble potentates who haue mainteined fauoured and preferred the Ministers that stand for reformation and whether here in England the right honorable sir Nicolas Bacon Lord keeper the Erles of Bedford Warwicke and Leycester Sir Francis Walsingham Sir Amias Paulet Sir Walter Mildemay and other right noble Lordes Counsellours Countes and Countesses woulde haue countenanced and protected the Ministers that seeke reformation if they had perceiued them to bee enemies to the Queene and state worse then papistes and miscreants and whether our Prelates bee more trustie to her Maiestie and prouident to auoyde danger then these excellent personages were This argument for the consistory is drawen from the opinion of courtiers men of warre Bellipotentes sunt magis quà m sapientipotentes Ennius apud Cicer. 2. diuinat therfore seemeth to me strange in diuinitie howsoeuer it is approued as good in the consistorie that dependeth on opinion and is turned as the cloudes with the winde If the same were any thing worth then might the heresie of Arrius yea Paganisme bee confirmed also to bee as good religion as the consistorian discipline for many Emperours Kings noble men dukes countes countesses captaines yea whole States haue embraced Paganisme and condemned Christian religion and fauoured idolatrous priests and persecuted christians Constantius and all his court for the most part most of his dominions embraced Arianisme And what wonder if diuers noble men and women embraced this fantasticall Discipline for whome would not the demure countenance sober sighes and out drawen speech of these hypocrites abuse wherefore let this libeller ground him selfe vpon these mens courtly fauour muster an army ready to fight for discipline let him haue his captaines officers his marshals lieutenants ensignes sergeantes corporals drummers and fifes and let him make his aldermen gunners for if they could looke with one eye they would proue most excellent in that facultie shooting so well at randon about interpretation of scriptures hauing so long layne battering downe our State I say all these mens opinions without authoritie of Scripture wey not one pepper graine Hee is a simple man that will die in that religion that most of these fauourers of Discipline which this man hath named did and most simple that will thinke the
case the synode should determine that he should pay some part whether godly brethren or prophane men should first be payd or else for auoyding of controuersie none at all 91 Quaere of Iohn Penry whether if Moses lawes haue such continuance as they holde in this newe kingdome a bastard that is excluded out of the sanctuarie may notwithstanding intrude without calling into the ministery 92 Quaere of those that make braggs of T. Cartw. great worke against the Rhemists whether there be not many points therein conteined contrary to all the fathers to the faith of this church and all good Diuinitie and why if all bee cleare with him he dare not suffer the same to abide the censures of lerned men and lastly why any should wonder that such thinges should not bee published considering what dangerous effectes doe followe printing of hereticall and schismaticall bookes 93 Quaere if a certaine consistoriall president at Middleburg when a marchant did pursue a certaine seruant of his in lawe for wasting his goods did not threaten to excommunicate him if hee would not desist his pursute and let fall his action and whether the consistory may serue for a sanctuanie for bad men and bankruptes if they professe reformation and whether this maner of discipline dissolue not ciuill contractes and hinder iustice 94 Quaere whether that the Church-aldermen doe not sometimes meddle in domesticall matters betwixt man and wife and hinder the fathers correction of his seruantes or children whether this be not a way to dissolue the bonds of nature that giueth authoritie in this case and whether the discipline that vseth this practise bee not vnciuill and vnnaturall To conclude Quaere if the Put-case had not done his clyents and their cause more good by silence then by this weake and calumnious speaking It were an easie matter to frame infinite Questions of like sort but these may suffice to let the Libeller see his owne folie in charging others when himselfe and his fellowes lye so open besides that I would not weary thee nor disfurnish my selfe of new matter against the next encounter let him article and play the Put-case as oft as hee will hee must not thinke hee shall walke vp and downe without answere or controulment in the meane while Pag. 83. because he appealeth to iudges and craueth iustice to them wee are also content to submit our cause and doe also instantly craue iustice iudge we beseech you all to whom the execution of iustice is committed whether it bee fitting that such as declame against the ancient gouernment of the Church euer knowen to bee in the Church since Christes time against the authority and preheminence of her Maiestie against the lawes of the realme against the proceedings of Iudges and take on them to controll and reuerse the sentences of iudges and seeke the trouble of the realme and maintenance of leud factions destitute of all ground and speake for a gouernement neuer heard of but of late nor that hath confirmation of scriptures or fathers iudge I say whether such intollerable pride arrogancie and disloyalty and those that defend these trecherous dealings and opinions in bookes printed in corners and without names are longer to bee suffered the inconueniences that may growe of these courses I neede not to declare vnto you that are men of iudgement and experience the weakenesse of their cause I haue sufficiently declared Why shoulde you doubt to doe iustice in so cleare a cause and against such factious persons For their doings haue no defence nor their doctrine support beside the bare opinions of Caluin Beza their followers they haue not so much as any groūd of reason no scripture no father no history no law nor example of good gouernmēt nay they haue both scriptures fathers histories lawe and reason against them most euidently and clearely and therfore I say againe let iustice be done if any of the ecclesiastical state haue done against law let them bee punished let not religion and learning suffer for the sinnes of particulars the innocent let them not be disgraced for others offences nor let malice and faction and sacriledge preuayle against lawe and gouernement that which is now their case may be likewise yours if you respect not the cause of men yet consider that it is the cause of religion learning and gouernment and so proceed as you may declare your selues to be men carefull of the aduancement of religion and learning and the maintenance of a peaceable gouernment and God so belsse you as you shew your selues studious of religion learning peace and iustice ⧠An Aduertisement to the Reader WHereas in the former discourse somewhat hath bene said in answere of the Petitioners lewd calumniations concerning the triall of Iohn Vdal and the iudgement not long since pronounced against him which he pretendeth to be disorderlie and iniurious it may be that such as list to cauill at such things as they mislike will take exceptions against the same as if I meant to abase the high authoritie of Iudges or make the proceedings of the highest courtes of Iustice an argument for the rude populasse to dispute of or to subiect the ordinarie trials of law to the controlment or at least canuases of priuate persons Least any should either in this behalfe except against me or enter into any such conceit of me I thought good expresly here to aduertise thee that both my words and meaning are contrary Concerning matters of common Iustice betwixt partie and partie I know that no iudgement is reuersed but by writ of errour and that in matters concerning the Crowne the verdicts of Iurors and sentences of Iudges for the Queene are finall and that the lawe doeth intend that Iudges and Iurors will proceede with that indifferencie and equitie that it will not haue their doings controlled nor examined by priuate persons Neither is it any part of my meaning to call any law in question or controll the doings of so honourable persons as in that fact sate Iudges Nay this is the thing which I doe so much reprehend in the Petitioner and his faction that most saucilie and arrogantly they take vpon them to examine the doings of Princes the actes of Parliament the sentences of Iudges the verdicts of Iuries and all recordes of Iustice Neither is there any companion among them so base but he taketh to himselfe libertie to censure and controll Princes Parliaments Iudges Lawes yea whatsoeuer and whomsoeuer Among others the author of the Petition hath behaued himselfe as presumptuouslie and proudly as the best Ignorance belike maketh him bolde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the rather for that it is ioyned with impudencie What through presumption and what through impudencie he hath taken vpon him contrary to the Iurors verdict and Iudges sentence to prooue that Vdall offended not against that statute of 23. Eliz. cap. 2. whereupon he was condemned This notorious impudencie and presumption I thought good to lay open before mens
by Fitzherbert For otherwise that writte should be contrarie to infinite other lawes Vpon this error what maruell is it if Crompton a man of no iudgement hath bene deceaued seeing Fitzherbert hath also mistaken such matters Neither is it maruell that lawyers speaking for their clyents doe speake otherwise then lawe For neuer before this time was it heard that the pleading of lawyers shoulde be accounted to be lawe further then they bring lawe and reason out of lawe To make a somme therefore of these matters Master Cooke who now for his manifolde good partes is made her maiesties Solicitor shall yeelde no thankes to this Libeller for bringing his name in question to bee a fauourer of malcontentes and an enemie to the Ecclesiasticall state Neither shall any credite you hereafter for this your notorious belying the Iudges For it is well knowen that the Iudges haue resolutely both condemned the disloyall practises of this sorte of men and also allowed the proceedings of the Ecclesiasticall courtes Nor shall any allowe your malice that with false reportes goe about to enkindle a dislyking among Iudges And therefore vnlesse you set downe the state of the controuersie better and reason more sufficiently both your selfe as an ignorant Put-case and your cause as repugnant to lawe will be condemned Quaere Putcase Quaest 26. if the high Commissioners for Ecclesiasticall causes may cite men Ex officio to accuse themselues in matters neither Testamentarie nor Matrimoniall and may committe the Queenes subiectes to prison especially for refusing to take the othe And whether they ought not to take bayle and whether the writte De homine replegiando doeth not lye in that case Item what satisfaction Doctor Coosin Doctor Stanhoppe and Doctor Bancrofte will make to those that are so wrongfully imprisoned Item whether for that matter they may keepe men in prison without calling them to answere and finally whether they deserue not like punishment therefore themselues Here is great noyse Answere little wooll many wordes little witte much malice little or no reason For the high Commissioners they bee many of them men of great honor and such as will doe no wrong to any nor will proceede without sufficient warrant If they haue passed the limites of their Commission why is not remedie of lawe sought For satisfaction to these doughtie demaundes I aunswere First that no man is called to accuse himselfe but to aunswere accusations obiected by others Secondly that they haue power to call offenders before them and to examine them and that their iurisdiction were vaine if they might not punish the contumacious Thirdly that if such as are committed to prison for contempt might be bayled there were then no meanes to punish a contempt and that offenders put in prison for contempt are not baylable Fourthly that the writte De homine replegiando is not in this case grauntable as all lawyers can tell him Fiftly that they may deale in many causes besides Matrimoniall and Testamentarie Sixtly that the learned men there mentioned haue great wrong to bee thus contumeliously abused by this libeller they hauing done wrong to no man Seuenthly that men committed for disobedience are not to bee released but vpon their conformitie And finally that such libellers as take vpon them to raile at Iudges and to oppugne lawful proceedings are to haue their mouthes muzzeled vp and their malice repressed Quaere Whether any Ecclesiasticall Iudge hath conuented Putcase Quest 27. examined and committed any for matters felonious touching the Queenes crowne and dignitie And whether these practises doe not instanter instantius and instantissimè craue the Praemunire That his companions are in case of Praemunire Answere it is out of question for that they haue contrarie to the prerogatiue of the crowne brought in forreine lawes and forreine iurisdiction of more then papall Elders and made diuers Ecclesiasticall constitutions contrarie to the lawes of the realme Nay it were to be wished that they had onely offended against the statute of Prouisors But their deniall of the supremacie is a further point What then doeth that craue Let him speake in his Proctors stile It craueth consideration and the perturbers of the state craue a wiser Proctor As for Ecclesiasticall Iudges it is well knowen that they doe not deale in matters of felonie their actes are cleare if any man doubt they will refolue him Quaere Putcase Quest 28. whether any may bee imprisoned without warrant of law c. Can this libeller shew any warrant Answere he hath to accuse men vniustly If not why doeth he proceede in accusing and is so slowe in prouing If any be imprisoned vnlawfully the lawe is open Neither needeth he to tell vs of Sir Iohn Markeham in this case For that which Sir Iohn Markeham saith we acknowledge for it maketh nothing for the libellers cause Quaere Putcase Quest 29. whether it be not lesse danger to blaspheme the name of God then to speake against a Lord Bishop And whether moe Ministers haue not bene depriued within this seuen yeeres for ceremonies of men then for dronkennesse whoredome c. If it were so dangerous to speake against bishops Answere as this fellow pretendeth they would not be so reuiled nor reuelled at by such reuellers as this The cōparison which he maketh is odious Moe be punished for abusing the Consistorie then for abusing the name of God more doe these consistorials striue about the authoritie of their seate then about Gods honor But what then because some of them offend will they haue all Consistories abolished And therefore let him cease to talke of Bishops and looke bakeward home to the Consistorie that it be well swept and garnished To the second I answere that none are depriued for ceremonies but such as be rebellious against lawes and with no admonitions will be reformed which contumacie is a most odious crime and further I say that the offences which come to the cognition of ecclesiasticall Iudges are as strictlie there dealt withall as in any other of her Maiesties courtes Quaere Putcase Quest 30. why the Ministers may not refuse to weare a Surplesse as a Bishop to vse a Pastorall staffe Because the one is commaunded by Lawe Answere the other is not The Rubrike whereby they would proue the Pastorall staffe concerneth onely orders and ornaments to bee vsed in Sacraments and seruice of the Church and none other matters but suppose both were commaunded yet is it no plea for offenders to say because Iudges offende in some things that they may offende in others which is the course of these men Belike these are the times wherein offenders cal Iudges to answere and felons giue sentence against their superiours Quaere whether seekers of reformation suffer for religion Putcase Quest 31. and conscience in matters of discipline seeing their life is offered them by bishops if they will recant their opinion And whether the Popishbishops persecuted any that differed