are not pleadable giue mee leaue M. Fisher to speake to you Iesuites in the words of Athanasius If you are the Disciples of the Scriptures and Christs scholars walke with vs by them if you wil talk extrauagantly and diuersly from the Scriptures why do you contend with vs who dare not to speak or heare any thing without them or different from them our Lord saying If you abide in my sayings you shall bee my Disciples Master FISHER'S Preface Neuerthelesse because those who bee partially affected or of meane capacity may as it is to be doubted diuers doe conceiue speak amisse of this matter to the disgrace of the Catholique cause and the preiudice of their owne and other mens soules I have thought is meet to set out a true relation of the occasion progresse and issue of this Conference and this in such sort as diuers falshoods of the Protestant Relator may be easily perceiued and the weaknesse of the Protestant cause may be euidently discouered which is also so bad as it seemeth it cannot bee supported but by setting out such lying relations The Answer Nescio quo pacto vox tua facta mea est You haue said that which I should haue said When Saint Hierom iustly taxed Sabinian a Deacon for deflouring a Nun Sabinian reflects vpon Saint Hierom and laies foule aspersions of lewdnes vpon him but the difference was that which S. Hierom charged Sabinian with which was per veram convictionem by true conuiction but that which Sabinian charged Saint Hierom with was per falsam confictionem by false conifiction or forged calumniation Thus the case stands betweene the Protestant Relatour and you Master Fisher. Hee laies crimen falsi to your charge per veram conuictionem by true conuiction hee proues falshood by you by vnanswerable arguments drawne from euident circumstances and your owne confession and multitude of witnesses beyond all exception see the Attestation Whereas you obiect falshood to him it is per falsam confictionem you falsly impose falshood vpon him you say that there is falsehood in his relation but you proue no such thing Your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 heere cannot carry it first because the particulars you deny neerly touch your credit and reputation therefore it stands you vpon to deny them Negas haec facta turpis enim et periculosa est confessio you deny matters of fact alleadged against you in the Conference because you cannot with safety or credit confesse them Besides this legall exception against your witnesse in your owne case you are a Frier and therefore according to the ancient English Prouerb a L. with a rime to it Thirdly you are a Iesuite and therefore vnlesse you will swarue from the rule of the prime men Ring-leaders of your society you maintain the wholsome and profitable vse of an equiuocating Lie What doo I or any man knowe whether when you speak of diuerse false-hoods of the Protestant Relator you reserue not in your minde Fained by me or deuised by me to saue my credit and promote the Catholique Cause But let vs see how you turn the Lie vpon vs. Master FISHER'S Preface The sight and consideration whereof maketh wee more easily beleeue that to bee true which I haue read viz. that A Decree was made by Diuines in Geneua defining it lawfull to lie for the honour or credit of the Gospell and that conformably to this Decree an English Minister being told that one of his Puâ—-fellows had made Lies in stead of Proofs of his Protestant Religion did answer saying Hee cannot lie too much in this cause it must needs be a weak and bad cause that needeth to be supported by such weak and bad shifts Answer I assent to your conclusion It must needs bee a false religion that is supported with such lies as you haue now heer giuen vs a brace True Religion neither is supported by lies nor any way supports lies Let vs see then whether your faith or ours leanes on these base and beggerly crooches Certainely neither Iacobus de Voragine nor Surius nor Copgraue nor Turseline nor any other Author of your golden Legends seruing to support your doctrines of Transubstantiation Inuocation of Saints Worship of Images and Reliques Purgatory and Pilgrimages c. can be proued to be a Protestant He that wrote Beza's Recantation and another who since set forth the late Lord Bishop of Londons Legacie was farre from a Protestant Name me any Protestant who euer defended pias fraudes or euer propugned this Tenet Fides non est seruanda Haereticis Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks The Fathers of the Councell of Constance who contrary to the faith and safe conduct giuen by the Emperour Sigismund burnt Iohn Hus and Hierom of Prague neuer learned from the Schoole of Geneua or the English Pue you speak of to break faith for the maintenance of the Romish-Catholique faith and the destruction of the opposers thereof The first that brake the Oath of Alleageance in heauen was the Diuell and by it becam a Diuell and the first that brake promise on the earth was likewise the Diuell Gen. 3. whose scholars they shew themselues who teach that Promises euen confirmed by oathes the strongest sinewes which hold all humane society together may be either cut asunder by Papall Dispensation or cunningly vntied by Iesuiticall Equiuocation Pray tell me in good earnest Sprang the doctrine of Equiuocation whereby you defend that a man may affirm nay sweare an vntruth in words and make it vp by a mentall reseruation from vs or from you I cannot finde either Nanarrus or Gregory de Valentia or Southwell or Tolet or Parsons among the Catalogue of Protestant Writers These vpholders of Equiuocation and many other whose names deserue to be buried in euerlasting obliuion with the ancient Pâ—iscilianists whose old damnable doctrine touching the lawfull vse of lying they refine with a new Burnish to make it more saleable neuer took a Copie of the supposed Decree of Geneua nor gathered Notes from the English Reader you speak of No Protestants are so ambitious as to steale from your Garlands the fairest Flowres wherewith you adorne your heads and pens If any such Flowres growe in our Gardens either they die of themselues or are carefully weeded out I appeal to all the Confessions Catechisms Expositions on the Commandements Systems of Diuinity Common-places seuerall Tractates wherein either directly and professedly or occasionally they fall on the Subject wee are now about whether they condemn not all lying and false-hood open or couered with mentall reseruation or without to the deep pit of hell from whence they came From which pit Iacobus de Voragine may very well be thought to take his name for raking hell for so many lying miracles and fables wherewith hee hath stuffed the liues of Saints And now hauing laid the Dog at your doore let vs see how you beat him from you to ours Your wisdome and graue fatherhood
hold the ancient Primitiue faith wee will acknowledge that we haue no right vnto them nor will we desire to be admitted to dispute out of them Therefore vntill M. Fisher or some other shall prooue by some other marks than bare alleaging of the Popes names locally succeeding one another in the Sea of Rome that they are the heires of the Apostles we haue a most iust cause to try the title of the true Church with them and bring the last Will and Testament of our Lord and Master for our prime Euidence and surest Deed to make good our plea. Of the fift Head 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or vain repetitions For the exemplification of this rare point of eloquence bequeathed to you as a Legacy in euery line and sentence of Battus his Will and Testament I need not alleage as I haue done before particular leaues and pages for you might far better haue intituled your whole book A Battologie than an Apologie or An 〈◊〉 pamphlet intituled The Fisher catched in his own Net A judicious friend of mine to whom I sent your Book at the first comming out in Print and demanded of him his iudgement of it returned it back again in the words of the Poet I lle referre aliter saepe solebatidem Another said M. Fisher's legible Tautologies in this printed Defense were as irksome and tedious as his audible dilatory Answers and Teâ—giuersations in the Conference A third said He was sure that M. Fisher aduised with the Poet Martial who professeth that rather than his Book should perish by reason of the finall 〈◊〉 of it hee would fill vp as many pages as 〈◊〉 cobbles verses with that Catholique Pateh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ergo ne pereat breâ—ibus mihi charta liâ—ellis Dicatur potiùs 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 To repeat particularly your vain repetitions would bee to commit the fault I reprehend in you euen in the reprehension thereof and I might feare to heare an allusion to that of Platâ— against Diogenes Fastum caleas sed 〈…〉 so I might be thought to cry down a Cuckoo 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And therefore passing them in 〈◊〉 from the contents of your Book I hasten to 〈◊〉 Text. Touching the occasion and issue of the Conference Protestant Relation EDVVARD BVGS Esquire about the age of 70. yeers being lately sick was sollicited by some Papists then about him to forsake the protestant faith telling him There was no hope of saluation without the Church There was no Catholike Church but theirs Master FIHSER's Answer How farre this parcell of the relation is true or false I will not stand to discusse as not yet knowing how or by whom the afore-said Gentle-man came first to doubt of his Church and consequently of his religion c. Doctor FEATLYE's Reply Although I might take occasion by the counter-relation of the occasion of this conference to reueale diuers mysteries of the reserued Art of Iesuitical frauds falsehoods for as they say in a Lamprey so in this whole treatise froÌ„ the beginning to the ending there is a string of poyson throughout yet because the occasioÌ„ of the conference but little concernes the cause less me in sparing the Iesuites blame and penance I will spare mine owne paines and the Readers 〈◊〉 who I perswade my selfe will not much regard how wee came into the field but how wee acquitted our selues vpon the place for the papers sent to the old Gentle-man which impudently thrust themselues vpon vs at euerie turne in the occasion Page 7. and 〈…〉 Conference and afterwards in the 〈◊〉 Page 48. and 49. and 60. Although they 〈◊〉 been met withall by Master Rogers Master Walker and diuers other and stabbed thorow and thorow againe with their 〈…〉 shall haue ouer and aboue my 〈…〉 Asteriskes when my tractate of the visibilitiâ—â—â— the Church which hath laine by mee in darknes for the space of a yeere shall vpon some good occasion become visible and see the light As for the relation of matter of fact so farre as concerneth the occasion of this Conference where the Protestants Relation and the Iesuites walke fairely together there needs no conteâ—ting Answer where they clash or 〈◊〉 one another I can answer no otherwise theÌ„ the Oâ—ator doth in the like kinde Accusatar dicit Marcus Sâ—â—â—rus negat Vtri â—redemus A Iesuit disparageth som passages in the Relation a worthie Knight of knowne integrity who procured the meeting for the satisfaction of his kinsman Master 〈◊〉 auoweth them as followeth 〈…〉 The answer of S. Humfrey Lynde touching diuers passages in the Protestant Relation about the occasion and issue of the Conference excepted against by the Iesuite COncerning the occasion of the Conference I aâ—ow that according to his Maiesties command I did set downe the truth of the occasion briefely and faithfully to my best remembrance as is alreadie extant in print And whereas fol. 4. Master Fisher saith hee set downe two questions with my consent and the old Gentlemans the first whereof being allowed by both of vs Master Fisher wrote It is granted I affirme that in processe of discourse I then allowed that the Church is more or lesse visible at all times but that I did grant a necessity of such visibilitie as hee intendeth or that I obserued what M. Fishers marginall note was I vtterly denie And wheras page 12. Master Fisher complaineth of the inequalitie of the Auditorie compared with the few which Master Fisher brought To this I say that vpon my credit I did not acquaint four persons with the meeting more then those that I inuited to dinner Howsoeuer I doubt not but that hee is rather glad he had no more Auditours of his owne side and by this time is more asham'd of his cause then of the paucitie of his parties thâ—re present And yet I will let him know for the small acquaintance I haue among the Papists I was able to number full twentie of that side present And verily had I purposedly drawn thither so much company the Iesuites ought me thanks for it as therein deseruing well of the Catholique cause by bringing a troup of spectators to view the foyle of our own side in a question reputed by the Iesuites so disaduantageous to vs wherin forsooth the Protestants as is triumphed page 33. are so farre from being able to produce three professors in euerie age tâ—at they are not able to name one to say nothing of Christ and his Apostles for they were not worthy to bee answered not one Author no not one Actor that dares oppose two such learned Iesuites in such a triall Again page 16. whereas it is said there was an vnseasonable motion made by Sir Humfrey Linde to Master Sweet I answer that I was induced for certaine reasons then to mooue Master Sweet to dispute vpon Transubstantiation First the standers by did well perceyue that the old man Master Fisher was much woorried and the Auditory much wearied with his saying nothing and writing
of Prague it appeares by those his words in Asser. articul 32. Iohannem Hus et Hieronymum viros catholicâ—s combusserunt haeretici ipsi Apostatae Antichristi discipuli they burnd Iohn Hus and Hierom both Catholique men they being themselues Heretiques and Apostataes and the disciples of Antichrist And in his first preface to some of the Epistles of Hus prefixed to the works of Hus In numero istorum operum sanctissimi Domini papae habetur et hoc quòd in Constantiensi Concilio optimum et pijssimum virum Iohannem Hus damnauit In the number of those workes of the holy Father the Pope this is one that in the Councell of Constance hee condemned Iohn Hus a man of singular worth and extraordinary piety And in the second preface Has Epistolas sancti Martyris Iohannis Hus c. These Epistles of the holy Martyr Iohn Hus And in his third Preface A fide dignis hominibus percepi Imperatorem Maximilianum de Iohanne Hus dicere solitum Hei hei secerunt bono illi viro iniuriam Et Erasmus Roter in primis libellis quos typis excusos adhuc mecum habeo manifestè scribit Iohannem Hus exustum quidem sed non conuictum esse Tale omni tempore bonorum virorum iudicium fuit quòd illata ei sit vis et iniuria Et paulò pòst porrò In confesso est attestantibus et aduersarijs quorum ipse nonnâ—llâ—s eosque magnos theologos audiui ante annos 30 fuisse 〈◊〉 excellenter doctum et eruditione atque doctrinâ antecellüisse omnibus Doctoribus in toto Conciliâ— Ego olim Erphordiae studij Theologiae tyro incidens in librum sermonum Iohannis Hus prae euriositate quadam incendebar desiderio cognoscendi quaenam dogmata haeresiarcha ille sparsisset cùm hic liber in publica Bibliothecâ ab incendio sernatuâ— esset â—itertâ— inter lâ—gendum obstupefactuâ— admiratione afficiebar propè incre dibili quam ob causam tandem exâ—â—â—â—s esset vir tantus in explicandâ et tractandâ scripturâ tam dexter et grauis c. I haue heard from men of credit that the Emperour Maximilian was wont to say of Iohn Hus Alas alas they did that good man wrong and Erasmus Roterodam in the first bookes which hee printed lying yet by me writeth that indeed Iohn Hus was burned but not conuicted This was the iudgement of learned men alwaies concerning Iohn Hus that great wrong and violence was offered vnto him For proofe whereof hee alleageth Doctor Staâ—pritius and Andrew Praule and in the end addeth moreouer It is a thing confessed euen by our Aduersaries themselues some of whom beeing great Diuines I heard 30 yeeres agoe that Iohn Hus was excellently learned and farre beyond all the Doctors in that Councell I my selfe when I was a young Student in Diuinity at Erford meeting with a booke of Sermons penn'd by Iohn Hus was inflamed with a desire of reading it thorow that I might know what were the heresies which this Arch-heretick broached This book was happily kept from burning lying hid among many other in the publique Library in the reading whereof I was amazed and could not sufficiently admire what the cause might be that so great a Clarke so expert and dexterous in expounding and handling Scripture should bee burned Thus you see how farre Luther was from detracting from any of his fore-runners to whom hee yeelded as ample a testimony for the Truth as they had yelded to the Truth And I desire the indifferent Reader to obserue how Iohn Hus his prophesie before his death was fulfilled in Luthers vindicating his doctrine and person Iohn Hus his words were which are yet to bee seene stamped in antient coyne currant among the Hussites Centum reuolutis annis c. After a hundred yeeres you shall answer God and mee and some affirme that hee added Iam Hus that is in the Bohemian Language Goose but there shall follow mee a Swan c. And indeed after a hundred yeeres that Swan appeared in the world which most sweetly beganne to record the pure notes of the Songs of Sion whose strong quill hath eternized Iohn Hus his innocencie of life and purity of Doctrine Master FISHER Wherefore the Lutheran Conradus Schlusenburg saith It is impudencie to say that many learned men in Germany and the like is of other countries before Luther did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell And another of them not onely saith in effect thus much but prooueth it by this Argument If there had beene right beleeuers that went before Luther in his office there had beene no need of a Lutheran reformation Another saith It is ridiculous to think that in the time before Luther any had the purity of doctrine and that Luther should receiue if from them and 〈◊〉 they from Luther considering saith hee it is manifest to the whole world that before Luthers time all Churches were ouer-whelmed with more then Câ—merian darknesse and that Luther was diuinely raised vp to discouer the same and to restore the light of true doctrine Doctor FEATLY'S Answer First I would haue you to know M. Fisher that I hold my self no way bound to giue an account of euery rayling or ouer-lashing Lutherans speech no more then you will vndertake to make good euery inuectiue of the secular Priests against the Iesuites such Writers of the petâ—y forme of little antiquity and lesse learning were not wont to be alledged in controuersies of moment in Diuinity But I perceiue by you M. Fisher that according to the Prouerb all is fish that commeth to your net If these three had ioyntly testified that for which you cite them yet their testimonies might soone bee blowne away by the conspiring breath of many Protestants of better rank then they Regius alledged by your owne Brerely testifyeth most expresly the contrary Dico fuisse ante Lutherum verae Religionis et qui cum Luthero per omnia consentires coetum Ecclesiasticum etsi à pontificijs non fuerit agnitus nec propter tyrannidem pontificium fortasse ostendi visibiliter potuerit I say that before Luther there was a companie professing the true Religion of the same beliefe with Luther although this company was not agnized by the Papists nor peraduenture could visibly be shewne or poynted at by reason of the Popish tyrannie Whitaker auowes Regius Our Church was then viz. in the Ages before Luther But it was not visible saith Bellarmine to weet in the Popish sense What then Will it follow that therefore it was not at all in the world By no meanes for it lay hid in the Desart Oâ—colampadius and Martin Bucers Letters to the Waldenses are extant in their works I might alledge the testimonies of Constance and Bullinger Vesembekius Viret Vigneaâ—s Caluin Beza Humfrey Fox Illyriâ—us and many other Protestants of higher rank then such sneakers as Schlusenburg or Myllius or Morgenst All the
Oracles of the Prophets the countenance of the Church is figured when at the first rising againe shee is renued into the ages of the moneth shee is hidden by the darknesse of the night and by little and little filling her hornes or right ouer against the Sunne rounding them doth shine with the light of cleere brightnesse The sixt assertion The false and malignant Church is oft time 〈◊〉 visible conspicuous and ample then the true Church and consequently eminent Visibility amplitude and splendor is no certaine note of the true Church The glorious face and outside of a Church which dazleth our aduersaries eyes was rather against Michea then for him all the Prophets prophecied c. It was rather against Eliah then for him for there were 450 Priests of Baal besides Câ—â—marims and hee took no notice in a manner of any seruant of God but himselfe It was rather against Ieremy then for him when all the Priests took counsell against him saying The law shall not depart from the Priest c. Nay the glorious outside and face of a Church was rather against Christ himselfe then for him All the chiefe Priests and Elders took counsell against Iesus Since Christs death to instance onely in one sort of Hereticks the Arrians vndoubtedly would haue carried the truth away by voyces and outward pomp for some hundreds of yeres if that were a safe triall for Saint Ierome complaineth Tunc vsiae nomen abolitum est tunc 〈◊〉 fidei damnatio conclamata est 〈…〉 Arrianum se esse miratus est Then the name of substance was abolished then the condemnation of the â—â—cene Creed was proclaimed the whole world sighed and maruelled that it became Arrian Vincentius putâ— theâ— case what was to be done Quando saith he Arrianorum venenuÌ„ non ià m portiunculam quandam sed pene orbem totum contaminauerat adeo vt prope cunctis Latini Sermonis Episcopis partim vi partim fraude deceptis caligo quaedam mentibus offunderetur When as the poyson of the Arrians did not infect a little portion but in a manner the whole world insomuch that almost all the Latine Bishops partly by force and partly by cunning were intrapped and had a kinde of mist cast before their eyes These things beeing so may we not iustly vpbraid the Papists as Gregory Nazianzen doth the Arrians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c Where are they now who vpbraid pouerty vnto vs and boast of their wealth who define the Church by multitude and despise the little flock of Christ who honour the sand and reproach the greater lights of heauen who treasure vp Check-stones and passe by Margarites The seauenth Assertion When there is a difference betweene the visible professors of Christianity and each party pretendeth it selfe to bee the true Church in opposition to the other the onely sure and infallible meanes to know which of the dissident parties are of the true Church is by trying their doctrine by Scripture To this touch-stone of truth the Prophet Esay directeth vs To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this Word it is because there is no light in them And our blessed Sauiour Search the Scriptures for in them you think yee haue eternall life And S. Peter We haue also a more sure word of Prophesie vnto which you doe well if yee giue heed as to a light that shineth in a darke place By this rule the Bereans examined the doctrine of the Apostle searching the Scriptures daily whether those things were so Saint Austen best approoueth of this course to come to the knowledge of the true Church In Scripturis Canonicis requiramus Ecclesiam in the Canonicall Scriptures let vs search the Church And Non audiamus Haec dico Haec dicis sed audiamus 〈◊〉 dicit Dominus Sunt certi libri Dominici quorum authoritati vtrique consentimus ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam Let vs not heare I say this or Thou saist this but let vs heare This saith the Lord. There are certaine bookes of God to whose authority wee both consent there let vs seeke the Church And after much debating the matter hee concludeth the Chapter with these words Ergo in Scriptur is Canonic is eam requiramus therefore let vs seeke her the Church in the Canonicall Scriptures And Quisque nostrum non in iustitia sua sed in Scripturis quaerat Ecclesiam Aug. ep 48. Saint Basil directeth vs to the same course 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 With whomsoeuer doctrine agreeable to Scripture shall bee found the truth is alwaies to be adiudged to bee on their side To forbeare more allegations the learned Author of the imperfect work on Mathew hearing the name of S. Chrysostome deliuereth a firmer conclusion in formall and expresse tearmes and that seuerall times shewing that his iudgement was settled and resolued vpon it 〈…〉 modis â—stendebatur quae esset Ecclesia Christi et quae Gentilitas nunc autem nullo modo cognoscitur quae vera Ecclesia Christi nisi tantummodò per Scripturas quare quia omnia haec quae sunt proprie Christi in veritate habent et haereses illae in schemate similiter Ecclesiam similiter scripturas similiter baptismum similiter eucharistiam et caetera omnia demâ—m ipsum Christum Volens ergo quis cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia vnde cognoscat in tanta confusione multitudinis nisi tantummodo per Scripturas Et pòst Qui ergò vult cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia vnde cognoscat nisi tantummodò per Scripturaâ— Formerly it was shewed many waies what was the true Church of Christ and what was Gentilism but now it is knowne no other way which is the true Church of Christ but onely by the Scriptures Wherefore because all these things which properly belong vnto Christ in truth euen those heresies haue in shadow in like manner the Church in like manner the Scriptures in like manner Baptisme in like manner the Lords Supper and all other things finally Christ himselfe Hee therfore who is desirous to know which is the true Church of Christ whence should hee know it in such a great confusion of multitude but onely by the Scriptures And a little after Hee that will therefore know which is the true Church of Christ whence should hee know it but onely by the Scriptures It is obserued by those who follow the Law that when a Defendant excepts against the iudgement iurisdiction of the Court he certainely despaires of his cause in that Court. And what can wee interpret it in our aduersaries but distrust and despaire of their cause to detract as they doe from the perfection and except against the authority and sufficiency of Scripture for deciding all controuersies And heer I will be bold to turne the Iesuite Campions roring Canon against him and his fellowes Cùm multa sint quae aduersariorum in caâ—sa diffidentiam
loquuntur tum nihil aqué atque sauctorum maiest as biblioruÌ„ foedissimè violata 〈…〉 quid causa a fuit vt Euangelium Mathaei Acta resigerent Apostolica Desperatio c. Quid 〈◊〉 vt omnes Pauli repudiarent Epistolas Desperatiâ— I may adde following his tune Quid Piggiâ— Hosio Lyndano quid Stapletono Bellarmino c Whereas there are many things which proclaime our Aduersaries distrust of their cause so nothing so much as their profane violating of the Maiesty of holy Scripture What was the cause that the Manichees repeale the Gospell of Saint Mathew and the Acts of the Apostles Desperation What was the cause that the Ebionites reiected all the Epistles of Saint Paul Desperation I may goe on following the same note and tune and say What is the cause that Ludouicus cals the Scriptures Dead inke Desperation What is the cause that the Bishop of Poictiers stiles it in like maner rem inanimem et â—â—tam a thing without life and dumb Desperation What is the cause that Piggius Ecehius 〈◊〉 Pereonius Norris diuers others so much detract from the authority and sufficiency and obscure the excellencie of Scripture by terming it Nasum cereum Euangelium nigrum Theologiam atramentariam Lesbiam regulam a Nose of waxe a black Gospell inkie Diuinity a Lesbian rule Desperation They appeale from Scripture vnder pretence that it is an imperfect rule and dumbe Iudge and therefore refuse to be tryed by it in the points of difference betweene vs why because that if they should referre the ending of all Controuersies to Scripture and put themselues on Christ and his Apostles they soon knowe what would become of them and their cause The eightth Assertion The paucitie of right Beleeuers and obscurity and latencie of the true Church protesting against the corruption and idolatry in the later ages therof is most clearely foretold in Scripture First by our Sauiour When the Sonne of man commeth shall he finde faith on the earth Maldonat the Iesuite answereth Vix fideminueniet He shall scarce finde faith False Christs and false prophets shall arise and shall seduce many yea they shall do signes and wonders and seduce if it were possible the Elect. Secondly by Saint Paul the Spirit speaketh 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 exertè expresly that in the latter dayes some shall fall from the faith And in the second to the Thes. 1. There shall be a falling away first Thirdly by Saint Iohn After a thousand yeers Satan must bee loosed a little season And The taile of the Dragon drew the third part of the Starres of Heauen And All the world wondred after the Beast and they worshipped the Beast saying Who is like vnto the Beast c. All that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the Booke of Life c. All nations haue drunke of the wine of the wrath of her fornications c. And no maruell that the true seruants of God were reduced to such a paucity when the diuell and Antichrist set all their forces against them The Serpent casts out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman that hee might cause hâ—r to be caried away of the flood I might alledge many pregnant testimonies both out of the antient Fathers the learned Papists also of later time for the blacke and gloomie darke and dismall dayes of the Church vnder the last and greatest persecution by Antichrist But Saint Austens testimony is so cleere for the obscurity and latency of the Church that I need adde no more Ecclesia est Sol Luna et Stellae quando Sol obscurabitur et Luna non dabit lucem suam et Stellae cadent de coelo Ecclesia non apparebit impijs vltra modum saeuientibus The Church is Sunne Moone and Starres when the Sunne shall be darkned and the Moone shall not giue her light and the Starres shall fall from heauen the Church shall not appeare the wicked raging against her without all measure Mee thinks I heare our aduersaries say What makes this obseruation for the Protestant Church or faith I answer Much euery way It furnisheth vs both with a strong defensiue weapon and offensiue also The defensiue may be thus framed That Church which hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number resembleth the true Church as the state thereof is described in her later Ages But the Protestant Church especially since the 1000 yeere after Christ hath beene persecuted massacred wasted and driuen to great extremity and reduced to a small number Therefore the Protestant Church in this respect resembleth the true Church and consequently her obscurity maketh rather for her then against her We may also on this Anuil shape an offensiue weapon in this manner The true Church in the later Ages thereof must be in great distresse and driuen to a narrow compasse The Popish Church hath not beene so Therefore the Popish Church is not the true Church For they make eminent Visibility and splendour a note of their Church If they answer that their Church vnder heathen and Arrian Emperors hath beene grieuously persecuted I reply First that those who suffered Martyrdome in those daies were rather our Martyrs then theirs because they sealed with their bloud the truth of Scripture-Doctrine and not of Popish traditions or additions Secondly those blessed Martyrs suffered in the first Ages of the Church long before the 1000 yeere in which Satan was let loose but wee speake of the persecutions of the true Church in her latter Ages Therefore when the Papists insultingly demand of vs Where appeared your Church in the Ages before Luther the best way to represse their insolency is to put a crosse interrogatorie to them Where did your Church lie hid When did it fly into the Wildernesse for the space of 1260 dayes When did the Beast with seuuen heads and tenne hornes push at it In the raigne of what Popes did the red Dragon cast a flood of waters to drowne her As for the predecessors of our faith and Standard-bearers of our Religion it appeareth vpon their owne records how the Whore of Babylon embrued her hands and died her garments scarlet-red in the blood of them persecuting and executing them vnder the names of Berengarians Lyonists Henricians Petrobrusians Albingenses Waldenses Wickleuists Thaborites Hussites Lutherans Caluinists and Hugonots and the like Heere see the craft of Satan and malice of Antichrist and his Ministers they wasâ—e the flock of Christ with bloudy slaughters and require of vs Where are those of our brethren whom they haue slaine They traduce vs for paucity whom they by their massacres haue brought to so small a number They vpbraid vs with those maymes and skarres which themselues haue giuen vs and put vs to produce those euidences which themselues haue burned and made away as shall appeare more at large hereafter The ninth Assertion
ceaseth Doctor Featly You haue a purpose Master Fisher to cauill you know my meaning well enough by the terme perpetuall to wit that Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it till this present and shall continue till his second Comming The Church which houldeth this faith you beleeue shal be so visible that the Names of the professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages But the Protestant Church holdeth this perpetuall faith Ergo. Master Fisher. Your Argument is a fallacie called Petitio principii Doctor Featly A demonstration à causa or à priori is not Petitio principij But such is my Argument Ergo. Is it not a sounder Argument to proue the visibility of the professors from the truth of their faith then as you do the truth of your faith from the visibilitie of professors Visible professors argue not a right faith Heretikes Mahumetanes and Gentiles haue visible professors of their impieties yet will it not hence follow that they haue a right beliefe On the contrary we knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintaineth the true faith shall haue alwaies professors more or lesse visible Master Sweet You ought to proue the truth of your Church à posteriori for that is to the question and not à priori Doctor Featly Shall you prescribe me my weapons Is not an Argument à priori better then an Argument à posteriori This is as if in battell you should enioyne your enemie to stab you with a knife and not with a sword or dagger I will vse what weapous I list take you what buckler you can Master Fisher. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue than à priori Heere Master Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning in preferring a demonstration à posteriori before that which proceedeth à priori Is not a demonstration of the effect from the cause better then of the cause by the effect In this place or vpon the like occasion againe offered neerer the end of the disputation Master Sweet replied M. Sweet This is to diuert the question The question is not now Whether our faith or yours bee the Catholicke primitiue faith but the question now is of the effect to wit the visibilitie of your Church which you ought to proue out of good Authors Doctor Featly May not a man proue the effect by the cause Is there no other meanes to proue the effect but by naming men and producing authors for it Master Sweet An effect is posterius the question is about an effect therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori Doctor Featly What a reason is this May not an effect bee prooued by his cause Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect or à posteriori because an effect is posterius Master FISHER'S Answer Thus farre the Relator who hath heere added much more then was said and in particular those formall words which he reporteth Master Fisher to haue said viz. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue then à priori Master Fisher did not speake perhaps hee might say That a proofe à posteriori doth better demonstrate to vs then à priori not meaning in generall to preferre a Logicall demonstration à posteriori before that which is à priori but that such a proofe à posteriori as hee in this present question required and as the question it selfe exacted would better demonstrate or shew to all sorts of men which is the true Church then any proofe which Doctor Featly or D. White can make à priori to proue the Protestant Church to bee the true Church as shall be shewed when need is heereafter At this present it may suffieâ—â—â— say to that which Doctor Featly now obiecteth against the proofe taken from visibility that Although all kind of visible professors doe not argue right faith yet want of visibile professors argueth want of Christs true Church For supposing it to bee true which euen D. Featly himselfe heere saith according to the Protestants Relator viz. wee knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture that the Church which maintaineth the true faith shall haue alwaies professors more or lesse visible and as Master Fisher further proued in one of the foresaid papers giuen to the old gentleman before this meeting so visible as their Names in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors supposing also out of Doctor Whitaker contr Dur. l. 7. p. 472. that Whatsoeuer is foretold by the antient Prophets of the propagation amplitude and glorie of the Church is most cleerly witnessed by Histories and supposing lastly out of Doctor Iohn White in his way p. 338. That things past cannot bee shewed to vs but by Histories Supposing all this I say it is most apparant that if there cannot bee produced as there cannot Names of Protestants or of any other professors of Christian faith in all Ages out of Histories to whom Gods promises agree besides those which are knowne Roman Catholiques not Protestants nor any other but onely the Roman Catholiques are the true church of Christ which teacheth the true faith and of which al sorts are to learn infallible faith necessary to saluation Doctor FEATLY'S Reply I maruel not M. Fisher that you leaue M. Sweet in the suds for you haue much adoo with all your strength and skil to get yourself out of the mire M. Sweet since he left our Vniuersities and was metriculated into your Society seemes to speak in our Academicall Phrase to haue resumed gradum Simeonis and to haue proceeded backward for whatsoeuer truth in Logick or Philosophy hee had learned in our Schools he hath learned to vnlearn in yours It seemeth he hath met with some such Master as Timotheus the Musician was who took double pay of his scholars for vnteaching them what they had learnd of others Hee was taught in our Schools that an effect cannot be scientifically proued or demonstrated but by the cause for Scire est causam scire propter quam c. and Demonstratio is Syllogismus scientificus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a scientificall Syllogism proceeding of those things that are former in nature and more knowne and causes of the conclusion All this he hath vnlearned and will needs go about to perswade vs that An effect because it is posterius must needs be proued by an effect and by the same reason that effect by another effect and Thirdly the Romane or Westerne Church ought to bee distinguished from the Papacie or mystery of iniquity in it which is not the Church but a preualent and predominant faction in it The Romane Church we acknowledge to bee a member though a sick and weak one of the Catholique visible Church and consequently to haue some part in the gracious promises made to the Church in the Gospell but the Papacy or that predominant faction is no member but a botch or an aposteme in the Church to which none of those promises belong yet many
points is eclipsed Aquinas sheweth that the vnderstanding of a Ploughman is not conuinced by this demonstration but onely the vnderstanding of him who is sufficiently fore-instructed in the tearms and suppositions heerunto belonging Therefore as this demonstration conuinceth not the vnderstanding by the bare proposall of the Syllogisme but the assent hauing been before wrought to the premises it enforceth and compelleth a rectified vnderstanding to assent to the conclusion In like manner I grant that the bare proposall of my former Syllogisme will not presently conuince a man either vtterly ignorant or in error as I feare you are to assent to the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church But if as I enforced you to assent to the Maior so you would haue but staied and suffred mee to inforce the Minor will you nill you you should haue beene compelled to yeeld to the conclusion But say you in your worthy witty instance This Argument doth no more perswade a man that the Protestants are the true visible Church then a man in case of doubt can bee perswaded by the like Argument which a man may make to prooue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in the parish thus Those who are in heart honest men are as well spoken of as any in all the parish c. Good Sir let mee aduise you to obtaine a writ of remoue for the Windmill for the whirling about of the sailes wrought very much vpon your braine as you were a-printing this Answer in the Cell Had not you had a whimpsy in your head you would neuer haue set this your Paralogisme as a Parallel to my demonstration In my demonstration the Maior rightly vnderstood is vndoubtedly true and de fide as your selfe confesse page 23. The Scripture doth shew the holy Catholique and Apostolique Church both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith and also to bee perpeâ—tually visible But in your Syllogisme the Maior is apparantly false If honest men were alwaies wel spoken of how can the Apostles words stand Sine per famam siue per infamiam either by good report or by euill report c Nay how can the words of truth it selfe be verified Blessed are yee when men speake all manner of euill against you for my sake Againe perpetuity of faith is the adequate or selfe-sufficient cause of the perpetuall profession thereof but honesty in heart is not the cause of fame but honest and vertuous actions It is not the inward burning but the outward shining of our light before men which maketh men to see our good works and thereby glorifie God in vs for them Yet by this your very instance and Syllogisme wee haue the better and therfore this your Syllogisme may be fitly tearmed as you will haue it A demonstration but with this addition of Fishers folly To be an honest man in heart is both prius naturâ and morally eligibilius in nature before and more desireable then to be well spoken of Mallem de me dicas Vir bonus est ergo bonae famae quà mè contra By this very argument the Visibility of the Church is but secundarium quid and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a secundary proofe and a common accident to the truth of faith And as wee therefore enquire of fame that we may know a mans vertue so wee therefore enquire of the true Church as your selfe confesse Page 23. that by it wee may learne the true faith We seeke a guide that we may finde the way and not the way that wee may finde a guide If I can otherwise infallibly know a mans vertue without fame put case he liued in a Desart I will not then set it vpon the triall of fame but in case I should faile of other proofe for a probable Argument I would produce fame In like manner if wee had no other infallible proofe of the true faith then by the perpetuall Visibility of the professors thereof I would hold it as you doe a point of principall moment to enquire of the Visibility of professors but sith we haue another more easie direct and infallible meanes to prooue it viz. by comparing the doctrine with the Canonicall Scriptures you shall giue me leaue M. Fisher rather to follow this Method generally prescribed and vsed by the Antient Fathers as I haue shewed before Assertion 7. then the other Method prescribed by you Obiect 2. Secondly you charge my demonstration with falshood in both the premises The Maior you say is false for that there may bee a Church or company who may haue inward faith eternall and vnchanged as for example a Church of Angels c. An instance as wide from the mark as the heauen is distant from the earth Our question is of a visible Church of which all sorts of men may learne infallible faith necessary to saluation Are Angels visible Are all â—orts of men to learne infallible faith of a Church of Angels Doe you hold it for a good interpretation If thy brother offend thee tell the Church that is tell the Angels or a Church of Angels Although Christ bee the Head of Angels and they make a part of the triumphant Church in a large sense yet I neuer read of a Church of Angels Bellarmine saith in expresse tearmes Lib. 3. de Eccles. Milit. cap. 12. Ecclesia est Societas quaedaâ—m non Angelorum sed hominum The Church is a Society or company not of Angels but of men If I should haue brought such an Argument to proue the militant Church vpon earth of which we disputed to bee inuisible because the Angels are inuisible I should haue suspected my selfe to haue beene as wise as hee that adored for a Relique one of the feathers of the Angell Gabriels wings Erubuit salua res est you seeme your selfe to be ashamed of this Answer and therfore you insist not vpon it but passe to the Minor burdening it with falshood saying The Protestants faith is not vnchanged but so often changed and so much subiect to change as one may say as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants What they hold this yeere I doe in some sort know but what they will hold next yeere I doe not know I can requite you with a like Apophthegme The Popish faith is so subiect to change that wee may say of it as a learned person in France once said That if a man would finde the Popish Tenets he must looke into an Almanack for them At one time the murther of Kings is Catholique doctrine viz. in the time of the League against the King of Nauarre At another time they pull in that horne and then for a season such murder is disauowed That the Councell is aboue a Pope was Catholique Doctrine with you in Martin the fifts time it was not Catholique doctrine in Leo the tenths About the breaking vp of the Councell of Trent the edition of the vulgar by Sixtus Quintus was authenticall and not
moment and ground of the whole question Hee putteth the case that the debter tooke the two pieces out of the creditours purse Surely a blind or verie credulous creditor that would stand still till the debter picked his pocket O patience Good Sir Creditor if you can vpon your credit make good that those whom you intend by the two tendered pieces of coyne namely Christ and his Apostles are the proper legacy and riches of the Romane treasurie take vs your bondmen in stead of payment of the rest But if this field wherein this precious pearle lyeth bee by good title ours as I then would and at any time hereafter can proue I think vpon such conuiction you will haue small courage to clamour for the rest of your twentie Doe but looke on this coyne though loth and see whose image and superscription it carryeth is it not the liuely indeleble Character of our Sauiours Charter the Scriptures They are ours by Christ Christ ours by them The Roman pouch is so stuffed with Traditions so choaked with counterfait ouergilt Copper of new-minted Articles that Christ and his Apostles and Euangelists cannot bee admitted nay will not bee embased to bee mingled with such drosse But I wonder that you dwell so long vpon a money Similie I thought you had vowed pouerty and might not touch siluer I haue heard of some of your orders that if they touch coyne it blisters their hands as it is reported of a certaine Lady that if a Rose-leafe bee put vpon her hand as shee is asleep it will make it blister But it seemeth to mee that you are Theocritus his Fisher you fish for gold and if you are not wronged haue caught no small number of golden gudgeons in your net and transported them beyond the seas carrying Rem ad non res no smal stock to English Nunneries I had almost sayd Iesuitisses or Loyolasses And if you will needes haue a Similie from paying monie to illustrate this passage in the conference thus you may frame it Suppose a Catalogue for sixteene-hundred yeeres which haue runne since Christ to bee sixteen-hundred pound suppose the hundred yeeres to bee a hundred pound I by producing a Catalogue of visible Protestants in the first age lay downe a hundred pound of the summe and bid you tell it after me and then demand of you whether the summe bee right You answer that you will tell mee after you haue told the whole summe of 1600. pounds I presse you again againe to answer concerning this first summe whether it be right or no if it be right I promise to lay down al the rest in the like manner You answer as before Lay downe the rest or you shall not begin with the first next heap but with the last in coÌ„clusion I charge you as you wil answer it at your peril to your Master whose factor you pretend to bee to giue-ouer all cauilling plainly directly to answer me whether this first sum be right or not and when notwithstanding this deep charge you trifle cauill the witnesses who were to set their hands to my acquittaÌ„ce pul me away saying You shal deale no more with such a cauilling factor This is a true perfect embled of the breaking vp of the Conference wherewith I will breake vp my defence thereof The Protestant Relation Paragraph the eleuenth touching the issue of the Conference This Conference though it took not that progresse which was desired by reason of the Iesuites tergiuersation not permitting D. Featly to come to the ripenesse of any Argument yet it hath not beene fruitlesse for since that time the aforesaid M. Bugges came to Sir Humfrey Lynde and gaue him many thankes for the said meeting and assured him that hee was well resolued now of his Religion that hee saw plainely it was but the Iesuites bragging without proofes and whereas formerly by their sophisticall perswasions hee was in some doubt of the Church hee is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion that hee doth vtterly disclaime the Popish Priests company and their doctrine also Master FISHER'S Answer I haue cause to doubt that this which the Relator saith is not true for thereby hee maketh the old Gentleman to bee but of a weake capacity or of a very mutable nature for first I am sure there was no cause giuen in the Conference of any such effectuall resolution to bee made by the old Gentleman Secondly I cannot see when this speech should bee made by the Gentleman to Sir Humfrey If immediately after the Conference it would argue too much want of capacitie for if hee did but rightly conceiue the true state of the Question in which himselfe had especially desired to bee satisfied as I verily hope hee did hee might easily haue marked the insufficiencie of D. Featly his diuerting proofes which also were so answered as the audience for want of satisfaction in them vrged him to leaue off and 〈◊〉 produce names of Protestants in all Ages the which producing of names beeing so oft and earnestly required to bee done in all Ages and yet beeing onely pretended and that most falsely to be done for one Age and the Conference beeing so abruptly left off by D. Featly before he would goe forward to name men in other Ages especially in Ages before Luther at the question required any meane capacitie might see that the Question in which the old Gentleman desired to bee satisfied was not fully answered nor consequently hee satisfied Moreouer the same Gentleman beeing present when the Earle of Warwick told M. Fisher that D. Featly should at another time come againe to giue names of Protestants in other Ages hee might easily and doubtlesse did vnderstand that as yet 〈◊〉 in all Ages were not giuen nor consequently the Question satisfied in which hee expected Answer Furthermore presently after hee went away from the Conference hee told M. Fisher himselfe that hee was glad that at the next meeting his Question should bee answered which shewed that as yet he did not conceiue it to be answered Lastly diuers dates after all the trouble and stirre was past which was made about the Conference the old Gentleman was not â—ore solute a Protestant as the Relator pretendeth for meeting M. Fisher and M Sweet hee desired them to giue him a Catalogue of names of Professors of the 〈…〉 that if after this the Doctors should not giue him a Catalogue of Protestants hee should dislike their cause Which Catalogue M. Fisher and M. Sweet haue ready for him but will not deliuer till he get the Doctors to make theirs ready that hee bring to them the Doctors Catâ—logue with one hand and receiue theirs with the others to deliuer to the Doctors All that can bee suspected is that in the very time of the said stir when the old Gentleman either was or feared to bee called in question it may perhaps bee that he might say those words which the Relator mentioneth But this if
it were was onely vpon fraâ—ltie or humane feare of trouble and not any firme and settled resolution grounded vpon the Conference sith both before and after he shewed a contrary minde as hath beene said Doctor FEATLIE'S Reply What you repeat in this passage touching my proceedings in the Conference hath beene before vpon diuers occasions answered and I endeuour as much as may bee to auoyd your familiar figure of battologie or repetition For that which concerneth M. Bugges that hee receiued satisfaction by the Conference and gaue many thankes to Sir Humfrey Lynd for procuring it and not as you imagine when the trouble was about the Conference but the selfesame night in the very roome wherein we conferd is not onely proued by Sir Humfrey Lynde his testimonie but also by M. Bugges owne subscription both to the Protestant Relation in generall and to this passage in particular and that of late since all pretended trouble was blowne ouer Now M. Fisher you are a very merry man that will goe about to face a man out of his beliefe and dispute him out of that peace and comfort which hee feeleth in his consciecne M. Bugges may well answer you in the words of Saint Austen spoken to another purpose Tu ratiocinare ego credam c. Doe you syllogize I will beleeue Demand you a reason if you list I will giue thankes Argue as long as you please How I could bee resolued by the Conference I am sure I was resolued and so still continue When the Philosopher in A. Gellius sophistically disputed against motion in this manner Whatsoeuer is mooued locally is either mooued in the place wherein it is or wherein it is not It cannot be mooued in the place wherein it is not because that is not to mooue locally or in place where the body hath no existence it can haue no motion Neither can a body be said to mooue in the place wherein it is because while a body remaines in its place it cannot mooue from it One of his Auditors there present whose arme a little before had beene put out of ioynt though hee could not verbally answer that his sophisme yet hee really refeld it thus At ego sensi motum luxato brachio I am sure I felt a motion when I hurt my arme and put the bone out of ioynt In like manner when you argue that M. Bugges could not be mooued by any thing that was spoken in the Conference because his Question was not answered or the Catalogâ—e of names not produced or because D. Featlyes proofs were diuersiue or because the Popish Audience still called for names or because you and M. Sweet are not yet satisfied or because I know not what M. Bugges in a word refutes all your reasoning At ego sensi motum I am sure I felt my selfe mooued by it and the doubt which sometimes shook my faith remooued So that I waâ— thereby not as the other put out of ioynt but in ioynt and of lame made whole Neither will it hence follow that M. Bugges must needs bee a man of meane capacity if hee were satisfied by so short a Conference but rather that God oftentimes vseth weake meanes to ouerthrow Satans strong holds Firmus the Maniche was reclaimed from that heresie by a digression of Saint Austens in a certaine Homily Alipius was drawn from heathenish sports and pastimes by an example in a discourse of Saint Austens on the By. That noble Venetian Marquesse who left both his Marquisate and all that hee had for the loue of the Gospell and comfortably ended his daies at Geneuae was at the first reformed both in his faith and life by an elegant Simile in a Sermon of Peter Martyrs Sometimes an exquisite Sermon taketh not the Auditory and sometimes a farre meaner taketh now and then a stronger Argument worketh not vpon the vnderstanding and will and yet a weaker proofe doth at the same time You cannot bee ignorant of the Story in Ruffinus of an Arrian Philosopher of whom the learned Bishops in the Councell could get no ground at all yet a simple vnlearned man by two or three blunt Interrogatories conquered and quite confounded him Wil you from this and the like instances inferre that the men so conuerted were men of meane capacity The contrary euidently appeares in Story you should rather from hence gather with religious Austen who may truly be said to 〈◊〉 written rather ex gratia then degratia so gratiously doth hee write of grace totum Deo dare qui voluntatem hominis bonam et praeparat adiuuandam et adiuuat praeparatam in our first conuersion and euery good work after to ascribe all to God who both prepares the will to be aided by grace and aideth it beeing prepared Yea but say you M. Bugges much desired a second meeting therefore it seemes he was not so resolute a Protestant as wee make him If this were a good Argument you might prooue all of our side to be vnsettled in our Religion yea M. Deane of Carlile and my selfe also who much desired and yet doe a second meeting to perfect the work then begun Though a man be neuer so well resolued in poynt of Religion yet hee may desire to heare Diuinity-Disputations and make good vse of them Yea but M. Bugges desired M. Fisher and M. Sweet to giue him a Catalogue of names of professors in the Romane Church saying that if after this the Doctors would not giue him a Catalogue of Protestants hee would dislike their cause If M. Bugges spake so which I haue reason to doubt hee spake it as hauing certaine knowledge that we had a Catalogue which hee did or might haue seene in the Conference Nor indeed doth the desiring or requiring of a Catalogue inferre any doubt of the conclusion Though a plaine vnlearned Christian beleeue most firmely that Christ was borne of the seed of Abraham and Dauid yet may he desire more particular information by hearing the beginning of Saint Mathews or Saint Lukes Gospell read and expounded to him Moreouer when I vndertooke to name those who taught Protestant Doctrine in all Ages if I should faile therein he should haue had iust cause to dislike my proceedings Yea but say you there was no cause giuen in the Conference at all of any effectuall resolution to be made by the old Gentleman therefore he could not bee so resolued by it as is pretended For answer heereunto though I am loth yet you constraine mee to recapitulate the chiefe points touched in the Conference Before the Conference M. Bugges was somewhat staggered in the poynt touching the Visibility of the Church by your brauadoes and Rhodomontadoes that all the world were Papists before Luther That there was neither vola nor vestigium of a Protestant Church before that time That no Protestant Minister durst encounter you in this point if any should be so hardy as to enter into these lists with you you would presently blank silence and nouplus them
former acknowledge that the Hussites and Waldenses walked with a right foot in that way of Truth which since Luther blessed bee God hath beene much more cleerely discouered and trodden then in former times If Protestant Writers sway little with you who yet could better tell then you or M. Sweet and such other new vpstart Iesuites who were Luthers forerunners learne of your owne Rainerius and Claudius de Seissel and Cocleus and Lyndanus and Claudius Rubis and Aeneas Syluius and Iohn Dubranius and Alfonsus à Castro and the Author of the Fasciculus rerum exet and many other that the Waldenses bore a Torch before Luther and shewed him his way Yea but Schlusenburg saith It is impudencie to say that many learned men in Germany did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell Schlusenburgs words are Impudenter scribit Vtenboyus seex Conrado Pellicano audiuisse multos viros eruditos in Germaniâ priusquam prodiret Lutherus euangelij doctrinam tenüisse adeoque ipsum Pellicanum priusquam auditum esset nomen Lutheri Purgatorium Papisticum reiecisse Vtenboius writes impudently that he heard Conradus Pellicanus affirme that many learned men in Germany held the doctrine of the Gospell before Luther appeared and that Pellicanus himselfe impugned the Popish Purgatory before the name of Luther was heard For ought I know Vtenboius is as honest a man as Schlusenburgius and if Schlusenburgius deny it Vtenboius affirmeth it yea and for ought is prooued to the contrary Conradus Pellicanus also yet that which Schlusenburg maintaineth for the honor of his Master no way helpeth your cause for admit there were not in Germany yet there might bee elsewhere many thousands as in Bohemia France England c. who before Luther embraced the doctrine of the Gospell Secondly in Germany it selfe there were not multi eruditi viri many learned men yet there might be some for ought Schlusenburg saith to the contrary therefore Schlusenburges testimony falls very short neither doth George Myllius his come much neerer to the marke His words are Si antecessores Lutherus in officio habuisset Orthodoxos Si Apostasia commissa ab Episcopis Pontificijs non fuisset Lutherana reformatione opus non fuisset Non ergo possumus veros monstrare Episcopos qui ante Lutherum sub Papatu fuerint praedecessores Lutheri Si enim tales fuissent in Romana Ecclesia discedendi ab ista causa non fuisset If Luther had had orthodoxall Predecessors in his Office If the Popish Bishop had not made an Apostasie there should haue beene no need of a Lutheran Reformation Therefore we cannot shew true Bishops vnder the Papacie to whom Luther succeeded for if there had beene such in the Romane Church there had beene no cause to depart from it What makes this testimony for you Is it for the honor of your Church to bee truly branded with Apostasie to haue no orthodoxal Bishops bearing rule in it What though there were no right-beleeuing Bishops vnder or in the Papacy will it follow that there were no right-beleeuing Christians elsewhere It is true Reformation presupposeth a Deformation as a remedy presupposeth a disease a purgation precedent matter fit to bee purged Though the Romane Church or rather the predominant faction in the Romane Church was vnsound in the faith and very corrupt and rotten yet were there other sound members of Christs Church in whose steps it is well knowne that Luther trod What a paralyticall Paralogisme is this Myllius a Lutheran affirmeth that There were 〈◊〉 orthodoxall or right-beleeuing Bishops in the Romane Sea therfore there were no visible Protestants in all the world before Luther Now for Benedictus Morgenst Non est inuentus in Baliua nostra Hee who found him for you makes him runne the same way with Ioachimus Camerarius but not whither you would haue him They both stand for the honor of Luther and maintaine that he alone laid the first stone in the Fabrick of reformation that none ought to share with him in that dignity in beeing the first Apostle of the reformed Churches They will not endure that Luther should be thought to draw water out of any other Cisterne but out of the Fountaine of liuing water the Scriptures Wicklef indeed saith Ioachimus was instructed by the Waldenses and Hus by Wicklef but Luther receiued his doctrine neither from Hus nor Wicklef but was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 taught of himselfe out of Scriptures This preeminency all Protestants doe not willingly grant to Luther Zuinglius and Pellicanus and Vtenboius and your owne Alfonsus à Castro seeme to make others as ready forward at that time as Luther And indeed whether Luther set Zuinglius or Zuinglius Luther first a-work or whether the Spirit of God stird vp both their spirits at the same instant to set to that noble work of repairing and reforming Gods Temple I hold it needlesse to define Let Luther and Zuinglius and many other their contemporaries and fellow-workmen in that great work shine as so many precious stones in the foundation of the reformed Churches Ne sit primus nec vel imus quispiam Will it follow that because Luther was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and did not tind his candle at another mans light therefore there was no visible Protestant at that time but hee It will follow say you because Morgenst addeth that It is manifest to the whole world that before Luther's time all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darknesse And you adde also to Morgenst fiue other corroboratory testimonies of Caluin Bucer Beza Iewell and Perkins whereunto after I haue giuen a direct and particular answer I will dismisse you Master FISHER And lest this may bee thought to haue beene onely the conceit of Luther and Lutherans who yet could better tell then D. Featly D. White and such other new Masters I will adde heereunto what is said first by Caluin who doth acknowledge that in this Lutheran reformation there was made a discession or departure from all the world Secondly by Bucer who calleth Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine Thirdly by Beza a principall Caluinist who teacheth that at this time ordinary vocation of the Church-men was no where extant and consequently teacheth that there was at that time no visible Church and so if any Church at all it was onely inuisible as is affirmed euen by our owne English Protestant Diuines namely Master Iewel who saith The truth was vnknowne and vnheard of when Martin Luther and Viderick Zuinglius first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell and M. Perkins who saith Wee say that before the daies of Luther for the space of many hundred yeeres an vniuersall Apostasie ouer-spred the whole face of the earth and that our Protestant Church was not visible to the world Doctor FEATLY When Caluin saith There was a departure made from all the world and Morgenst That