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A70985 The reign of the whore discovered and her ruine seen her merchants the priests examined, and with the Romish church (their elder sister) compared and found agreeable in many things ... : some queries also for those people that pay tythes, and priests that receive tythes, to consider and answer : and whereas their cry hath been loud against us the people of God called Quakers, that we are Jesuits, and Jesuitical, in tryal they are found false accusers, and of the same stock and generation themselves ... : also the sustance of a dispute which was the 15th day of the 2d month, called April 1659, at the Bridge-house in Southwark, between VVilliam Cooper, VVilliam VVhitaker, Thomas VVoodsworth, VVieles, Watkins, Cradicut, and others who profess themselves ministers of Christ, and some of the people call'd Quakers ... / written in that which gives to see over all the popish train ... W.S. Smith, William, d. 1673.; Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662. Following letter containing the substance of the dispute. 1659 (1659) Wing S204A; ESTC R33983 31,593 40

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THE Reign of the VVhore DISCOVERED And Her RVINE seen THis is a certain Truth revealed in the light and witnessed to by the Scriptures that the Whore the false Church hath long reigned in her fenced City which Cain the Vagabond and Murtherer built and long hath she been guarded and defended with Cain's Weapons carnal Weapons and long hath she sate as a queen seeing no sorrow and long hath her golden Cup passed up and down the Nations which is full of abominations of her Fornication whereby the Nations have been * corrupted and the Inhabitants of the Earth made drunk But now is the hour of her Judgement come and coming now is her skirts lifted up and her secret parts discovered and discovering and the Beast on whom she rode and rides is seen and his colour is known and her secret Chambers of Imagery is found out and her Sorceries and Witchcrafts are made manifest and many people on whom she s ate and over whom she reigned are redeemed from under her and reigns over her in Christ the Power of God which redeems and which preserves in the redemption Oh let the redeemed of the Lord praise his holy Name and walk to the praise and glory of his Grace for ever for the day is dawned wherein hypocrisie cannot stand nor hypocrites hide themselves and wherein fig-leaves cannot hide nor cover from the pure eye of the Lord God which runs to and fro through the Earth though they may be sowed together by such who have eaten of the choicest fruit the tree of knowledge of good and evil yeilds and by such who are called Orthodox men Learned men great Schollars Wise Disputants all is in valn their labour is little worth the Lord is come down to walk in the Garden and his Voice Where art thou is gone forth and now is the Lord come and coming to make inquisition for blood and to bring every man's Work to Judgement and to reward every man according to his Work And now ye Priests and Professors in Southwark especially who are called Presbyterians whose cry is very loud against us who are called Quakers and the noise among you is That we are the deceivers false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing and that we deny the Scriptures and are Jesuits c. Answ. Must this be true because you say so And must the people believe you before you prove it Nay but you will be counted false accusers and fierce despisers of those that are good till you make it appear by better proofs then you could find to prove your selves Ministers of Christ at the late Dispute then you can find to quit your selves from being guilty of those things you charge us withall for indeed we count you guilty of the same things you accuse us for and ever shall unless you can clear your selves and convince us to the contrary for we see many signs marks and characters upon you and many practices among you which were never found upon nor among the true Ministers of Christ and that are not owned by the Scriptures and this hath been signified to you already at the late Dispute and in Writing also given into William Cooper's hands some Weeks since And also in a printed Paper titled The grounds and reasons why we deny the Teachers of the world Which hath been printed six years since and no Answer hath appeared from you the National Priests who are concerned therein And now seeing William Cooper and some others of your Brethren affirmed publikely that we the people called quakers are Jesuits and Jesuitical and proffered to prove their affirmation in the bitterness of their spirits therefore let us reason a little with you and prove and examine you that the people may see your Clothing or outside if not your inside to be Jesuitical at least and let us and all people know how you can quit your selves from being of that Popish Train and as for us let our integrity and innocency plead for us otherwise we shall say nothing for our selves for the Lord doth plead our cause Are not you like the Jesuits and Popish Priests First In your being made fit for your Call to your Ministry Secondly In your Call Thirdly in your going forth Fourthly In your Work called to Fifthly In your Maintenance in your Work Sixthly In your Doctrines Practices Places of Worship and manners in Worship If you say nay Make it appear not onely in Words but in Fruits not Fruits of Violence I do not mean but Fruits of the Spirit of God if you know it and answer First Are you not like the Jesuits and Popish Priests in preparing your selves and making your selves fit for your Call to your Ministry you profess Are you not prepared and fitted at those Schools and Colledges first ordained by the Pope Doth not learning some natural Languages and Arts as Logick and Rhetorick and such like make you fit for your Call And are not the Popish Priests and Jesuits made fit after this manner in such places and by such means for their Call Then are you nor like them in this thing And was ever any of the Ministers of Christ fitted and prepared after this manner that he sent forth Secondly Are you not called appointed and ordained by men to preach And do you not count that your Call if you have the approbation of some that are counted Orthodox men which have learned the natural Tongues and Arts that are taught in the Popish Schools and Colledges And are not the Popish Priests and Jesuits called and approved after this manner And are you not like them in this also Was ever Christ's Ministers called by man or approved by man Thirdly In your yoing forth to preach are you like the Ministers of Christ Do you go gorth freely and minister freely from City to City and Nation to Nation as the Ministers of Christ did Have you received freely Have not you bought what you have with money And do you not strive to get the best Market place you can to sit down into sell it again even at a deer rate And are not the Popish old Mas-houses your Market-places where you abide many times for term of life Are not you the creepers the Apostle spoke of that should creep into houses and lead silly Women captive laden with sin led aside with divers lusts ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth Are not all your followers such Doth not your fruits make you appear to be such house-creepers as were in the Apostles dayes Is not this the Popish Priests manner Do not they go forth in this way Are not you careless Watchmen and dreaming Prophets and idle Shepherds Do you not say we are Wolves And have we not had meetings several years in many of your Folds called parishes in over which you count your selves good Wattchmen and true Shepherds But when did either of you or any of you parish-Masters who would have others count
January and the twelfth Month February Now do you not prefer the Heathenish and Popish Traditions Rules Customs Manners and Writings before and above what is delivered prescribed and taught in the Writings of the holy men of God so that it is come to pass by your so doing that if people are brought to call daies and months and times and places and persons according as those did who had the spirit of God which the Scriptures teacheth and witnesseth unto I say When people are brought to this they become a hissing and a wonder among you and are counted nice and frivolous and unmannerly and when we speak and write of hours dayes and months as they are recorded in the Scripture people cannot tell what we mean nor how to understand us nor when such a time hour day or month is but will rather mock and jeer at first hour first day first month c. and will have no such reckoning of times in their temporal civil or spiritual Accompts these are your Auditors your Disciples or Schollars as you have learnt you teach as you the Priests are so are the people imitators of the Papists and Heathen in this as well as other things and the Christians life words manners and behaviour you are out of and strangers to and may we not justly with the Heathen and Papists compare you whose example you follow And then concerning the manner of your publike Divine Worship as you call it have you not this manner and custom as the first part of your Worship to sing David's Psalms in rime and meeter divised or turned thereinto by Poets or Musicianers as Thomas Sternhold and John Hopkins and others with apt Notes to sing them withall before your prayer and after your Prayer before your Sermon and after your Sermon of all the people together Is not this your own invention Was there any such manner of singing in the Church of Christ You say Let us sing to the praise and glory of God and you keep an Officer to read the Psalm to people which are some drunkards some covetous some proud some defrauders of their Brethren dissemblers double dealers some Adulterers and unclean persons some jesters and idle talkers some light and vain wild and wanton some scornful high-minded and mockers some disobedient to Parents unthankful and unholy and of rude unchristian behaviour Of such consisteth your Church and are not the Steeplehouse-singers such And can such persons sing to the praise and glory of God Or are they in a state and condition fit to sing at all Doth not weeping and howling mourning sorrow and lamentation and wo from the dreadful Lord God of Heaven and of Earth belong to such singers Singing with Grace in the heart unto the Lord we own but singing with wickedness with pride and covetousness in the heart we utterly deny Singing with the Spirit and with understanding we own but your singing by Letter with Musical Notes and Tunes customarily ignorantly without understanding we wholly disown and bear our testimony against it as abomination in the sight of the Lord and it was never ordained nor appointed in nor by the true Church but it hath been ordained and appointed by the false Church the Whore and her Merchants in the dark night of Apostacy since the dayes of the Apostles and since the true Church fled in to the Wilderness And is not this singing of David's Prayers Mournings Sighings Complainings and Cryes unto the Lord and his Praises Rejoicings and magnifying the Lord and such like conditions as David was in I say Is not your singing of these things like the Papists singing have you any more rule in the Scripture for your singing then the Papists have for their singing And hath it not been one of the Whores later invention and addition to your Worship even about the time of Queen Elizabeths reign in this Nation but the same pure eternal light which appeared in the hearts of some about the beginning of our English Wars and manifested much of the Popish Trumpery which was then in being of which quiristers and singing-boys in white Surplices was one I say the same pure eternal light hath manifested your singing and noise to be as abominable in the ears of the Lord as theirs and to be denyed and witnessed against for you have no more rule in the Scripture for your singing David's Prayers then the quiresters and singers then had to sing the Prayer which Christ taught his Disciples which they called Pater Noster Which of all you Mass-house Singers are or ever were what you sing as when you sing O Lord I am no● puft in mind and that your eys are not scornful Are you not of such a proud and hard heart and puft up mind and scornful eyes many of you that you will scarce look upon nor walk with nor relieve those that are poor though they be of your own Church Then do you not sing a lye in this And is that to the praise and glory of God Surely you dare not say that God is glorified with a noise of lyes not that David's Psalms are lyes but you being not in the same state condition and life that David was in they are lyes in your mouths David said Mine eys gush out with Rivers of water because they keep not thy law I am afflicted ready to dye from my youth up while I suffer thy terrors I am d●stracted I am like a Bottle in the smoak I am like an Owle in the desert I am like a Pellican in the Wilderness I am like a Sparrow alone upon the house top all my friends and acquaintance hath forsaken me This David said and you sing these words ignorantly customarily never witnessing the same state condition so they are lyes in your mouths and God is not glorified but dishonored by you in this part of your Worship and your singing and the Papists and quiristers and Surplice-boys singing is abomination alike in the sight of the Lord and in the sight of his servants who are redeemed from amongst you and from under the great Whore which sits upon the Waters but the Lord our God is taking her seat from under her and into the pit she with her golden Cup full of Sorceries Witchcrafts and Fornications shall fall and none shall be able to deliver her neither can she save her self nor those that hath been and still are made drunk with her Sorceries and deceiveable ways of unrighteousness of which this trick craft and art of singing is one James said Is any merry let him sing Psalms He wrote these words to Saints but hear what he wrote to such as you Cleanse your hands ye sinners and purifie your hearts ye double-minded be afflicted and mourn and weep let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy into heaviness Such as these hath no cause to be merry who are sinners whose hands are uncleansed and whose hearts are unpurified and whose minds are double And
are not all ye Mass-house-singers in whole Christendome so called such But the Lord hath redeemed and is redeeming many thousands from among you Babylonish singers and hath brought and is bringing them to godly sorrow which leadeth to repentance never to be repented of and afterwards to the joy which shall never have an end and your rejoicing and singing which is carnal customary and formal before any godly sorrow for sin you know and before you are lead to that repentance which is never to be repented of I say this your rejoicing and singing which is before repentance must of necessity end in sorrow and anguish of heart The Lord grant you such sorrow which leadeth to repentance in time before Eternity seizeth upon you that weeping and howling and gnashing of teeth be not your portion for ever for if the prayers of the unregenerate ungodly or wicked are abomination to the Lord is their praises and singing any better Is praise comely in the mouth of a fool And are not they fools that lives in iniquity yet rejoiceth Consider this ye Priests ye Jesuits and Popish Christians and let the Witness for God in your conscience and in all consciences answer whether ye are not all alike Concerning your praying after you have done singing The Scripture saith I will that men pray every where lifting up holy hands without wrath or doubting But what hands do you lift up Are your hands holy c Have not you Wrath Envy and Malice in your hearts and doubtings and waverings in your minds Is not your prayings like the Popish Priests and Papists prayings And like the Scribes and Pharisees prayings Did Christ ever teach you to pray any more then he taught them Are you his Disciples or Schollars or followers any more then they What do you learn of him And whither do you follow him Can you say that he hath taught you to pray as he taught his Disciple to pray Have you not learnt to pray of some other besides Christ And do not you instead of being led to pray by the Spirit of Christ pray customarily You know when you have sung out your Psalm you make and frame a prayer or else the people will wonder at you so instead of waiting and staying for the moving and leadings of the holy spirit to pray by you wait for the end of the Psalm and then you move and stir up your selves and makes a mock of the movings of the spirit of God and so instead of praying by the Spirit you turn up your Hour-glass and prayes by that so that you know how long to pray and how long to preach and how long to sing by your guide the Hour-glass and your eye is often towards it for direction and when 't is a pretty deal run you will tell the people you see the time is far spent therefore you must hasten and when your Glass is out you tell the people the time is spent and you see the time is past and therefore you shall conclude Oh what do ye mean ye Priests that ye are not yet ashamed of this divice and Popish Invention in this day of the light 's breaking forth in the hearts of people Ye search the Scriptures which you falsly call your Rule and you say you are Ministers of Christ and succeeders of the Apostles but in trial you are found lyars and your pretended Rule the holy Scriptures witnesseth against you as transgressors out of the life of the holy men that gave them forth wresting their words to serve your private ends to your own and others that are led by you destruction and out of the Apostles and Ministers of Christs steps life manners behaviour doctrine and practices Where is it written in the holy Scriptures and which of the Apostles and Ministers of Christ appointed and ordained that their succeeders should pray and preach and sing by an Hour-glass and to meet together by the sound of the Bells to worship Where is that written And which of the Ministers of Christ appointed Bells to call their Brethren together In which of the Christian Churches before the Apostacy was there Hour-glasses and Bells and Pulpits with embroydered Cloath about them and lined Stalls for the rich with a lock and key to keep the poor out and many such like devices which are found amongst you I say Where is your Rule● Where is your Example for any of these and such like things in the Scriptures of the holy men of God Come Priests look out the Chapter and Verse if you can and let us know where it is until then we shall conclude yea and it is concluded already That you walk not nor worship not as the Christians before the Apostacy did neither have you them for your example or pattern but that your example and pattern is the false Romish Church your elder Sister and the great Whore your Mother we know and the Beast she rides on we have seen which is of a Scarlet colour and the blood she hath drunk of the Prophets Saints and Martyrs the Lord is enquiring after and making inquisition for and a bed of Torment she shall be laid on Hearken and rejoice ye Saints ye Children of the Most High a Bed which betokeneth a place of Rest shall be the Whores place of Torment her resting place shall torment her Alas alas Weeping and wailing and mourning over her shall be the greatest comfort her Merchants that hath been made rich by her and her children she hath delicately brought up shall yeild her yea all ye Ship-Masters and all ye company in Ships and Saylors and Kings and Merchants shall stand afar off for fear of her torment and cast dust on their heads and cry weeping and wailing saying Alas alas that great City wherein were made rich all that had Ships in the sea by reason of her costliness for in one hour is she made desolate Rejoice over her thou Heaven and ye holy Apostles and Prophets for God hath avenged you on her you have seen the Angel take up the great stone and give the sign of her perpetual downfal and a great voice of much people in Heaven is heard saying Halelujah Salvation and Glory and Honor and Power unto the Lord our God for true and righteous are his judgements for he hath judged the great Whore which did corrupt the Earth with her fornication and hath avenged the blood of his Servants And again they said Halelujah c. And now you National Priests are not you the Ship-Masters or Parish-Masters Merchants or Traders by Sea here spoken of And the gathering together of the waters he called Sea And the Beast with seven heads and ten horns rose out of the Sea The wicked are like a troubled Sea And the waters thou sawest where the Whore sitteth are peoples kindreds tongues and nations So the sea is Waters and the Waters is Peoples Multitudes Tongues and Nations whereon the Whore your Mother hath long sate and in or among