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cause_n king_n people_n prince_n 3,388 5 5.5555 4 true
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A00637 A counter-poyson modestly written for the time, to make aunswere to the obiections and reproches, wherewith the aunswerer to the Abstract, would disgrace the holy discipline of Christ. Fenner, Dudley, 1558?-1587, attributed name.; Stoughton, William, fl. 1584, attributed name.; Jacob, Henry, 1563-1624, attributed name. 1584 (1584) STC 10770; ESTC S101936 77,534 204

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derogatory_n to_o christ_n &_o his_o scripture_n his_o word_n be_v these_o pag._n 192._o now_o as_o concern_v the_o inward_a government_n of_o the_o church_n of_o christ_n by_o his_o spirit_n god_n work_v in_o his_o child_n by_o the_o minister_n of_o his_o write_v reveal_v word_n &_o also_o touch_v the_o essential_a point_n of_o the_o outward_a policy_n &_o government_n of_o the_o church_n consist_v in_o the_o true_a teach_n of_o the_o word_n of_o god_n in_o the_o due_a administration_n of_o sacrament_n according_a to_o christ_n holy_a institution_n in_o the_o advancement_n &_o further_a of_o virtue_n with_o the_o beat_n down_o of_o sin_n and_o impiety_n and_o in_o keek_v the_o church_n in_o a_o quiet_a unity_n and_o good_a order_n there_o be_v no_o difference_n of_o opinion_n among_o us._n and_o a_o little_a after_o we_o affirm_v that_o no_o such_o precise_a &_o exact_a form_n of_o external_a government_n of_o the_o church_n by_o discipline_n as_o they_o depaint_v it_o out_o be_v so_o much_o as_o by_o any_o example_n recommend_v unto_o we_o in_o scripture_n but_o much_o less_o command_v as_o a_o continual_a platform_n for_o ever_o to_o be_v follow_v in_o which_o assertion_n omit_v the_o nakedness_n of_o it_o arm_v with_o no_o proof_n out_o of_o the_o scripture_n or_o any_o good_a reason_n let_v we_o see_v how_o it_o show_v such_o gross_a ignorance_n as_o be_v not_o to_o be_v luck_v for_o in_o a_o man_n of_o his_o gift_n for_o it_o delear_v that_o he_o can_v not_o distinguish_v between_o the_o cause_n instrument_n and_o mean_n of_o a_o thing_n and_o the_o thing_n itself_o between_o government_n and_o the_o essential_a part_n of_o government_n and_o the_o fruit_n of_o it_o for_o government_n ecclesiastical_a that_o be_v the_o spiritual_a administration_n of_o christ_n by_o the_o order_n and_o instrument_n of_o his_o church_n which_o he_o have_v ordain_v be_v a_o different_a thing_n from_o the_o truth_n of_o
that_o and_o so_o have_v see_v his_o waterish_a objection_n let_v we_o see_v how_o his_o side_n be_v drink_v with_o the_o thirst_n of_o honour_n do_v contrary_a themselves_o in_o one_o and_o the_o same_o point_n for_o when_o the_o place_n of_o the_o ephesian_n be_v bring_v against_o a_o arrchb._n as_o number_v up_o all_o the_o ministry_n of_o the_o word_n &_o yet_o leave_v out_o that_o the_o answer_n be_v it_o be_v not_o 309._o perfect_a for_o deacon_n be_v leave_v out_o and_o in_o the_o next_o page_n that_o he_o speak_v only_o of_o the_o minister_n of_o the_o word_n in_o the_o place_n of_o the_o ephesian_n and_o again_o in_o the_o place_n of_o the_o 1._o ibid._n cor._n ●2_n the_o apostle_n leave_v out_o euangelluns_n and_o yet_o in_o the_o next_o page_n out_o of_o doubt_v the_o division_n of_o the_o apostle_n there_o be_v perfect_a and_o yet_o again_o pag._n 317._o it_o be_v perfect_a here_o note_v that_o to_o say_v it_o be_v not_o perfect_a it_o be_v perfect_a it_o be_v not_o perfect_a of_o one_o and_o the_o same_o place_n and_o in_o the_o same_o respect_n be_v evident_o contrary_a there_o be_v no_o contradiction_n between_o this_o which_o be_v 203._o say_v that_o bishops_n live_n &c_n &c_n be_v turn_v to_o maintain_v the_o ministry_n and_o yet_o that_o noble_a man_n be_v elder_n have_v no_o maintenance_n of_o the_o church_n i_o can_v find_v no_o such_o thing_n in_o the_o sixth_o art_n of_o french_a discipline_n &_o if_o there_o be_v their_o meaning_n be_v y_z t_z they_o may_v not_o exercise_v any_o dominion_n or_o cheefedome_n over_o the_o deacon_n neither_o be_v it_o any_o disorder_n if_o in_o a_o ecclesiastical_a senate_n and_o in_o the_o church_n the_o minister_n be_v prefer_v before_o his_o lord_n to_o conceive_v prayer_n to_o propound_v matter_n for_o it_o be_v not_o absurd_a for_o one_o to_o be_v superior_a and_o inferior_a in_o diverse_a respect_n the_o father_n inferioure_fw-fr to_o the_o son_n which_o be_v above_o he_o in_o deliver_v the_o worde_n the_o first_o place_n out_o of_o simler_n be_v not_o great_o material_a if_o they_o choose_v some_o elder_a to_o moderate_v though_o it_o belong_v unto_o the_o pastor_n yet_o it_o proove_v not_o but_o that_o he_o be_v superior_a in_o open_v the_o worde_n unto_o they_o in_o choose_v matter_n which_o be_v debate_v the_o next_o though_o it_o be_v a_o geeate_a blemish_n and_o maim_n not_o to_o have_v a_o ecclesiastical_a presoyterye_n yet_o it_o enforce_v no_o contradiction_n see_v that_o cannot_a be_v the_o presbyterye_n speak_v of_o in_o the_o scripture_n where_o by_o his_o own_o interpretation_n minister_n be_v understand_v his_o conclusion_n which_o he_o will_v infer_v out_o of_o the_o discipline_n of_o france_n that_o because_o magistrate_n be_v of_o the_o consistory_n and_o to_o be_v direct_v by_o the_o pastor_n therefore_o they_o will_v range_v prince_n with_o their_o seniors_n be_v diverse_o vain_a for_o first_o it_o be_v no_o reason_n see_v the_o prince_n may_v be_v subject_a to_o the_o ministry_n of_o the_o pastor_n and_o elder_n and_o yet_o never_o subject_n or_o inferior_a to_o their_o person_n secondlye_o it_o be_v manifest_a by_o their_o condition_n that_o they_o mean_v not_o the_o supreme_a magistrate_n when_o they_o say_v if_o one_o shall_v not_o hinder_v the_o exercise_n of_o the_o other_o which_o must_v needs_o be_v in_o prince_n consider_v their_o multitude_n of_o affair_n in_o the_o book_n of_o the_o 206._o soldier_n of_o berwick_n if_o their_o be_v any_o unreverent_a speech_n we_o allow_v it_o not_o yet_o if_o any_o prince_n will_v do_v any_o thing_n without_o god_n warrant_v in_o church-matter_n it_o must_v not_o be_v obey_v otherwise_o whatsoever_o be_v beyond_o this_o we_o condemn_v as_o undiscreete_a in_o the_o next_o that_o he_o may_v make_v the_o discipline_n enemy_n to_o prince_n he_o turn_v up_o again_o that_o which_o sober_a man_n long_o ago_o have_v leave_v and_o consent_v unto_o the_o first_o be_v that_o we_o will_v have_v the_o ecclesiastical_a senate_n to_o administer_v ecclesiastical_a matter_n will_v not_o jehosephat_n also_o have_v the_o priest_n 19_o and_o levit_n to_o administer_v the_o matter_n of_o god_n and_o what_o have_v he_o bring_v of_o our_o book_n which_o be_v not_o as_o full_o set_v down_o by_o those_o reverend_a man_n of_o god_n b._n jewel_n &_o m._n nowell_n see_v they_o say_v as_o long_o as_o 38._o the_o minister_n be_v godly_a and_o learned_a it_o be_v necessary_a they_o shall_v decide_v these_o matter_n that_o the_o prince_n be_v command_v to_o have_v recourse_n unto_o they_o in_o doubtful_a matter_n that_o it_o belong_v to_o the_o bishops_n office_n to_o decide_v of_o such_o cause_n but_o christian_a prince_n have_v rather_o to_o do_v with_o these_o matter_n then_o ignorant_a and_o wicked_a priest_n and_o that_o in_o case_n of_o necessity_n the_o prince_n ought_v to_o provide_v for_o convenient_a remedy_n as_o for_o his_o slander_n that_o we_o agree_v with_o the_o papist_n to_o give_v christian_a prince_n power_n of_o fact_n but_o not_o of_o law_n and_o authority_n to_o promote_v and_o set_v forward_o not_o to_o intermeddle_v in_o cause_n ecclesiastical_a we_o esteem_v it_o no_o more_o than_o a_o foul_a untruth_n which_o every_o man_n of_o judgement_n can_v convince_v for_o if_o they_o have_v authority_n in_o our_o judgement_n by_o the_o worde_n of_o god_n to_o see_v to_o their_o ministrye_n and_o to_o cause_v they_o to_o make_v such_o law_n as_o they_o know_v agreeable_a to_o god_n worde_n to_o authorise_v such_o and_o disannul_v the_o contrary_n cause_v they_o to_o make_v good_a when_o they_o will_v make_v ill_a or_o orderlye_o to_o procure_v such_o as_o can_v and_o will_v be_v present_a in_o the_o action_n and_o give_v their_o consent_n if_o it_o please_v they_o all_o which_o be_v give_v by_o t._n c._n 167._o and_o by_o we_o all_o unto_o the_o magystrate_n then_o do_v we_o grant_v they_o no_o more_o than_o power_n of_o fact_n then_o to_o promote_v matter_n and_o in_o speak_v against_o we_o herein_o do_v he_o not_o direct_v himself_o against_o the_o very_a law_n and_o order_n of_o the_o church_n which_o be_v that_o the_o convocation-house_n do_v make_v ecclesiastical_a law_n and_o if_o they_o be_v good_a the_o queen_n give_v her_o royal_a assent_n and_o then_o they_o must_v be_v obey_v if_o not_o then_o that_o they_o be_v no_o law_n his_o second_o point_n whereby_o he_o will_v make_v we_o odious_a be_v that_o we_o think_v the_o prince_n may_v be_v subject_a to_o excommunication_n that_o be_v that_o he_o be_v a_o brother_n deutr._fw-la 17._o 15._o math._n 18._o 15._o that_o he_o be_v not_o without_o but_o within_o the_o church_n 1._o corinth_n 5._o 12._o 13._o if_o this_o be_v dangerous_a why_o be_v it_o print_v and_o allow_v in_o the_o famous_a write_n of_o byshope_n jewel_n in_o that_o the_o priest_n do_v his_o 720._o office_n when_o he_o excommunicate_v and_o cut_v off_o a_o dead_a member_n from_o the_o body_n so_o far_o forth_o the_o prince_n be_v he_o never_o so_o mighty_a be_v inferior_a to_o he_o yea_o not_o only_o to_o a_o bishop_n but_o to_o a_o simple_a priest_n why_o be_v it_o suffer_v which_o master_n nowell_n have_v 53._o write_v the_o prince_n ought_v patient_o to_o abide_v excommunication_n at_o the_o byshoppes_n hand_n why_o be_v not_o the_o example_n of_o 18._o worthy_a emperor_n raze_v out_o of_o the_o history_n see_v they_o have_v be_v subject_a to_o this_o censure_n why_o do_v the_o reverend_a father_n b._n of_o l._n reckon_v up_o such_o example_n not_o long_o since_o at_o paul_n cross_n the_o next_o cavil_n be_v not_o worth_a the_o answer_n for_o they_o of_o france_n may_v call_v whosoever_o they_o think_v good_a to_o give_v they_o light_v in_o any_o question_n and_o therefore_o much_o more_o professor_n of_o divinity_n so_o be_v the_o next_o for_o both_o they_o and_o bullinger_n may_v make_v teach_v general_o incident_a to_o the_o pastor_n office_n for_o so_o it_o be_v common_a both_o to_o pastor_n and_o doctor_n yet_o to_o apply_v his_o special_a gift_n and_o labour_n that_o way_n may_v be_v proper_a to_o the_o teacher_n or_o doctor_n as_o be_v prove_v in_o the_o treatize_v of_o that_o point_n before_o the_o book_n of_o bertram_n i_o have_v not_o neither_o be_v it_o material_a if_o he_o differ_v from_o truth_n in_o some_o point_n through_o humane_a infirmity_n for_o they_o themselves_o say_v they_o condemn_v the_o error_n of_o those_o who_o say_v that_o child_n be_v damn_v 52_o which_o die_v without_o baptism_n as_o much_o as_o we_o and_o yet_o be_v it_o write_v of_o their_o side_n that_o want_n of_o baptism_n be_v a_o probable_a sign_n of_o reprobation_n when_o as_o we_o say_v it_o be_v no_o sign_n at_o all_o of_o rejection_n this_o oppon_n of_o y_fw-es ●_o admonition_n and_o bertram_n and_z y_z